1968

un archivo ciego

Escenofona, vestigio y transgresin

[Extracto de la conversacin que sostuvieron Bani Khoshnoudi,
Mario de Vega y Rodolfo Snchez Alvarado acerca de la manera en
que se confeccion la banda sonora de la pelcula El Grito, considerado uno de los nicos testimonios flmicos desde el interior del
movimiento estudiantil sobre su propio desarrollo y surgimiento
en 1968, y su brutal desenlace el 2 de octubre en la Plaza de las
Tres Culturas en Tlatelolco. Un documento colectivo realizado en
un contexto de autoritarismo y represin gubernamental emblemticos en la historia moderna de Mxico. Cul es el lugar de lo
real en un material compuesto de tantos fragmentos, huellas y
miradas? Cmo acta la imaginacin en la conformacin de un
documento poltico de este tipo?]

Mario de Vega: Como punto de partida

yo le preguntara qu entiende usted por
escenofona, para que desde ah regresemos nuevamente al documento de El
Grito, sobre el que estamos trabajando.
Rodolfo Snchez Alvarado: Una definicin breve sera el vestido sonoro de un
hecho escnico. Eso, sin embargo, genera
muchas imprecisiones. Recuerdo que
alguien dijo de la escenofona que era
el vestido de la escena, por ejemplo,
convirtindome con ello en vestuarista.
Esta persona no entendi la metfora,
pues es un vestido sonoro ciertamente,
en este caso un sonido hecho para la
escena, para trabajarse como se trabaja
la escenografa... de hecho yo parto del
concepto de escenografa, que es todo lo
visual y corpreo en donde se desarrolla un hecho escnico: en mi caso es el
sonido que tiene que ver con la escena.
Fue una bsqueda muy larga. No hace
mucho nos reunimos varios colegas y tuvimos una pltica acerca de cmo llamar
a nuestro trabajo, a lo que hacemos en
el teatro. Muchos son musicalizadores,
otros dicen que son sonidistas, compositores, y a mi se me ocurri este trmino

que me parece ms incluyente, el de

escenofona.
MdeV: Cuando te escucho explicar lo
que es la escenofona me motiva mucho
porque ests tocando justo el punto que
a mi me interesa, vaya, porque lo que
queremos hacer con este proyecto no es
musicalizar un evento visual; un documento visual como tal. En mi caso no
estoy intentando musicalizar nada, pero
evidentemente ya hay un vestigio ah en
la pelcula de El Grito, hay un trabajo que
hiciste t y que tiene todo un trasfondo
y tiene una forma especfica y creo que
lo que debe ocurrir ahora es transgredir
eso, segmentar ese vestigio. Para m era
importante saber cmo lo entendas t,
cmo entendas este principio. Estructurar un evento sonoro para un evento visual que no propiamente es musicalizarlo, no es componer msica para un vide o
para un documental. Ahora he visto creo
que ms de cuatro veces El Grito, y lo que
me interesa sobre todo es que pareciera
que la imagen y el sonido son dos cosas
aparte. Obviamente viven en un espacio
comn, pero no estn ilustrando algo,
y ahora lo que intentamos hacer Bani y

yo es justamente eso, tal vez radicalizndolo mucho ms. Cmo puedo partir
de tu trabajo, de tu tratamiento sonoro?
Bani trabajando el archivo visual y yo
el sonido pero con la intencin de que
al final se convierte en una pieza que
es ms una confrontacin fsica con el
espectador. Y yo creo que la escenofona
tiene mucho que ver con eso. Es muy
bonito como lo dices t: ste vestido
sonoro, pero vestido no entendido como
una prenda, sino como sta especie de
aura o este ter sobre la condicin visual
que confronta fsicamente al espectador,
que se le impone.
Bani Khoshnoudi: Siguiendo lo que dice
Mario acerca de este vestido sonoro que
se ve como algo aparte o separado de la
imagen, y relacionndolo tambin con lo
que le sobre tu manera de trabajar para
El Grito, con los sonidos que te llegaban
de otra gente que andaba en la calle
grabando, y cmo con slo haber visto
algunas partes trabajaste a partir de tu
imaginacin, me gustara que nos hablaras ms de esto, y si tu imaginacin slo
parti de esas imgenes o de experiencias tuyas o cosas que t viste en la calle
de lo que estaba pasando en Mxico en
ese momento. Qu fue lo que nutri tu
manera de trabajar con el sonido?
RSA: Cualquiera pensara que estaba yo
muy inmerso en la problemtica del 68
y todo eso... que si lo estaba porque no
podas no estarlo... yo en ese ao tuve
muchsimo trabajo, trabajo sonoro, tal
vez como nunca lo he vuelto a tener.
Adems de mi trabajo en Radio Universidad, fue la Olimpiada Cultural, hice un
ballet electroacstico con Rafael Elizondo y bueno, obras de teatro y cine para
el comit olmpico, estaba yo plagado
de trabajo y entre otras cosas me viene
a caer lo de El Grito. Fueron acontecimientos muy fuertes para todos los que
habitaban esta ciudad, pero el trabajo

vino hasta el ao siguiente, hasta el 69,

no tenan un sonido, entonces acudieron
a mi, yo estaba en el CUEC, daba clases
y me pidieron que lo armara; fue a partir
de efectos especiales, sonidos fabricados, una que otra cancin por ah. Algunas de estas canciones las grab aparte,
no dentro del movimiento, y algunas me
llegaron grabadas por ellos mismos que
iban a los eventos, yo ni siquiera tuve
tiempo porque estaba yo realmente lleno
de trabajo, tuve una presin tremenda,
estaba durmiendo tres o cuatro horas
cuando bien me iba de tantas actividades
que tuve, as fue la situacin...
Leobardo Lpez, que fue el que coordin
todo y tuvo una parte muy significativa
en cuanto al levantamiento de la imagen,
me llam para ayudarle con el sonido y
bueno, pues no haba nada, salvo algunas
canciones que haba por ah pero lo
dems era inventarlo. Era substituir el
sonido que no se pudo grabar y pues
inventar, con base en la imaginacin,
simulando por ejemplo peleas para sonorizar las imgenes de pleitos. Hay en la
pelcula algunas tomas en un hospital,
entonces mand a una asistente a grabar
la sala de espera de un hospital, sonidos
de instrumental mdico, todo lo tuve que
inventar por que claro, los efectos de
sonido que yo tena eran muy pobres y
adems con el agravante de que estaban
grabados en discos de vinilo, eleps, entonces tenan mucho ruido de superficie,
clics y todo ese tipo de cosas, y con todo
eso tuve que batallar. Incluso yo he tenido la propuesta, la he hecho varias veces
a personas amigas de la Filmoteca de la
UNAM, en el sentido de que me gustara
volver a hacer ese sonido ahora.
CPA: Por qu hacerlo, slo por que eras
el nico que saba hacerlo o te sentas en
cierta forma responsable?
RSA: Realmente no haba mucha gente
que hiciera sonido como yo. Adems yo

estaba en el CUEC, no recuerdo si ya daba

clases ah pero tena muchos compaeros
y conocidos como Alfredo Joscowicz,
Jos Rovirosa, Leobardo mismo, varios
que fueron alumnos, algunos maestros y
todos compartamos un cierto sentimiento moral. Si los dems compaeros se
haban ido incluso a la crcel por filmar,
claro que yo senta el compromiso de
hacerlo, y bueno, no haba quien hiciera
sonido en ese entonces de esta manera.
Lo que se empezaba a hacer era sonido
directo, el cual era inexistente en esas
tomas, si acaso un porcentaje mnimo de
esas imgenes tenan sonido directo. Algunas cosas tuve que recrearlas o volver
a grabar. Ahora bien, todo lo dems fue
lo que recogan, porque s tenan caseteras de audio que les servan para ir a las
manifestaciones, algn discurso por ah,
pero no sincrnicamente con la pelcula,
claro. Por ejemplo las balaceras. Recuerdo que me dieron dos balaceras, que no
s quin las grab...
MdeV: No lo grabaste t, eso te lleg
despus?
RSA: Casi todos los materiales que me
dieron eran tomados por aqu y por all,
y se saba que tenamos que tener ciertas
precauciones y bueno, se los digo con
toda sinceridad: yo no supe jams quien
hizo las grabaciones de las dos balaceras
que hay ah, vaya, que us. Una desde
luego se nota que son periodistas que
estn hablando, que estn comparando,
hacen comentarios por ah en la grabacin que yo tengo. Y en la otra da la
impresin de que es alguien muy cercano, demasiado presente, as que no s
si es un soldado o bien es alguien que
descolg un microfonito desde alguna
ventana, no s realmente y sinceramente
ni siquiera quise preguntar quin la hizo
por que ciertamente haba temor de que

nos descubrieran o nos preguntaran, y yo

ni siquiera quise tener en mi persona el
dato de quin haba hecho esa grabacin,
as que tuve esa precaucin o el miedo,
llmese como se quiera, pero el caso es
que no quise saber quin fue.
BK: Justo era una pregunta que me
haca, sobre el miedo cuando uno est
trabajando con materiales de ese tipo en
un momento tan difcil polticamente,
socialmente. Y tambin miedo de dar
tanta fuerza, tanto poder a un archivo
visual con el sonido que estabas haciendo. Cmo sentiste la pelcula una vez
que la viste al final?
RSA: Te soy sincero, yo he visto dos tres
veces la pelcula, hace mucho que no la
veo, Ahora no tengo una imagen clara,
algunas cosas recuerdo que si me impactaron, pero no tengo una memoria global
de ella. Con todo esto que estamos
platicando me dan ganas de volver a ver
la pelcula... digo, qu fue lo que hice?
Necesito verla de nuevo y revalorar todo
lo que est hecho ah no?
MdeV: Lo que dices a mi me motiva muchsimo, hablando un poco de la forma
en que he intentado abordar esto y segn
lo que hemos empezado cada quien por
su lado; tanto Bani con su tratamiento
y seleccin de secuencias, pienso que
funciona ms bien como una interpretacin. Gran parte de los sonidos que he
estado generando ahora son completamente antagnicos incluso, no intentan
ilustrar una imagen. Creo que el reto y
lo interesante para nosotros es posiblemente lo mismo que hiciste t: tener un
documento que es audiovisual, es decir
que evidentemente t ves una imagen,
oyes un sonido pero no corresponden
al cien por ciento. O sea, que hay una
antagonismo. Lo interesante para m
es: cundo ese antagonismo se vuelve
unidad, en que momento esa diferencia

unifica ambas partes. Por ejemplo, ahora

generando el sonido slo digitalmente
sin tener ningn tipo de grabacin de
nada, ni usar ninguno de los sonidos que
estn dentro de El Grito y que t montaste, sino con secuencias de arreglos de
frecuencias, o modulacin de tal o cual
cosa que en su origen no corresponden
a la imagen, no responden al principio esencial de cmo est pensado el
documento, pero al escucharte de pronto
me parece que la aproximacin es muy
similar. Por eso para mi era esencial escuchar cmo fue el proceso de montaje.
Me motiva mucho saber que t no fuiste
a las manifestaciones con micrfono en
mano arriesgando la vida, porque tal
vez no estaras aqu contndonos esto
ahora, posiblemente, sino que eso lleg
por otros lados y bueno, se monta y de
pronto tienes un resultado.
BK: Yo quisiera preguntarte qu pas
con los sonidos que no utilizaste.
Yo por ejemplo, cuando he trabajado
cosas similares grabando y filmando yo
misma y luego editando, me sent con
la responsabilidad de no estar slo con
mi material, sino de ver todo lo que los
otros haban grabado y que pusieron
en Youtube y que eran miles de videos
y bueno, luego, de alguna forma yo
empec a catalogar todo. Para m eso
fue una parte del trabajo que sirvi para
darme cuenta de que exista ya todo un
archivo. El dilema fue si deba compartir
este archivo y cmo hacerlo. Recuerdo
que poner o no poner tal cosa no slo
represent una duda, sino tambin una
responsabilidad, adems reconocer qu
me daba miedo poner y que no, borrar
o no borrar los rostros de las personas
que aparecen para proteger su identidad.
En El Grito no se hace nada de esto, pero
quera saber qu hiciste con ese material... las voces de los soldados y todo lo

dems y qu significa este archivo para el

Mxico de hoy, que no s si existe o no,
de materiales que no se usaron.
RSA: Realmente no hubo mucho material,
y te confieso que lo nico que conservo
y que soy conciente de que lo tengo
archivado son las dos balaceras que hay
ah, eso es lo que recuerdo, seguramente
hay algo ms pero la verdad no lo tengo
presente. Y mucho de lo que produje y de
lo que me pasaron lo vaci en carretes
como me pidi Leobardo. l me dio tambin una lista por rollos como se maneja
en cine, no s cuntos rollos eran, una
docena o ms de pelcula, y entonces me
deca en esa lista: en el rollo 1 necesito
tales y tales sonidos; en el rollo 2 tales y
tales otros.., con esto quiero decir que
yo hice el sonido... cmo decirlo.... muy
a ciegas. Vi imgenes aisladas pero nada
armado, no recuerdo al menos haberlo
visto armado, entonces el trabajo que
hice fue de verdad muy a ciegas, muy
desconectado... por que hay otras cosas
de cine en donde estas viendo la imagen,
en sincrona...
BK: Bueno, o al menos si ests editando
algo que es muy diferente a la intencin
sonora, tienes la pelcula como referencia...
RSA: Exactamente, y ahora con la computadora es muy fcil meter la imagen y
estar trabajando sobre ella, pero no, yo
estaba absolutamente a ciegas, slo con
la referencia de las experiencias personales, de lo que se vea en los noticieros, o de lo que se platicaba, pero yo no
trabajaba contra imagen para nada, slo
era la relacin, la lista de sonidos que
me dio Leobardo donde me indicaba en
qu parte de las secuencias necesitaba
un sonido de manifestacin, un sonido
de balacera, otro de trfico, cosas por el

estilo... y bueno, los iba consiguiendo

poco a poco conforme los iba necesitando. Recuerdo que una cosa que me pidi
Leboardo fue un sonido de sepelio, de
un entierro, y tuve que grabarlo atrs de
mi casa, en el jardn, los sonidos de una
pala cavando... los montones de tierra...
fabricarlos, porque no tenamos ese
sonido, entonces haba que fabricarlo,
y eso es a lo que me dedico, a fabricar
sonidos para la escena, para el teatro, en
un momento dado los invento, los tengo
que inventar. De la misma forma, cuando
hice el sonido de El Grito, con mucho
menos experiencia, con muchas menos
herramientas, tratando de ser lo ms
pulcro posible, valga el trmino, porque
pues no tena las condiciones. Pero aqu
me gustara regresar a un ancdota que
debo narrarles sobre el sonido especfico
de la balacera de Tlatelolco, en la ltima
parte de la pelcula. Ciertamente yo tuve
dos grabaciones de balaceras, pero eran
eso: balazos. No haba el factor humano
y no haba gritos, no se perciban gritos
en las grabaciones que yo tena y que,
por la que supe, provenan de un registro
original del 2 de octubre, entonces haba
una necesidad de hacer un sonido de
pnico; pnico de la gente masacrada
ah en Tlatelolco. Estuve buscando y no
haba un efecto de sonido que tuviera
esta cuestin de pnico, adems no
eran tres gatitos aullando, se necesitaba una muchedumbre, entonces haba
que inventarlo, a falta de esta realidad,
digamos. Y bueno, por esos das en que
estaba yo trabajando en esto lleg a
Radio Universidad, donde yo estaba trabajando, el cineasta Carlos Velo, a quien
yo le grab algo no recuerdo para qu, y
me sent con la confianza de pedirle su
ayuda, puesto que l estaba trabajando
en los estudios Churubusco y era hombre
de cine pens que poda ayudarme con
este asunto del pnico humano que

necesitaba para la balacera. Y entonces

le pregunt: Maestro podra pedirle un
favor, sera posible que me grabara un
sonido de multitud en pnico?. Y me
dijo: cmo no, yo se lo consigo, se lo
mando, cuente con l. Y bueno, yo supona que haba un stock de sonidos all
en los Estudios Churubusco, supona un
profesionalismo tremendo no? Y ciertamente me cumpli esplndidamente, me
mand un carrete con un asistente, pero
cuando lo escuch era verdaderamente lamentable. Por que si, eran gritos
de pnico, pero de apenas un par de
actores, justo lo que yo estaba evitando,
podrn imaginarse los sonidos ridculos:
eh, uh, ah, eh, eh ah, ah!. Una cosa
absolutamente burda y pues definitivamente lo tuve que desechar. Entonces
opt por pedirle a Hctor Mendoza, con
quien estaba trabajando en una obra de
teatro, y en donde s haba una docena
de actores, que me ayudara. Y como
estbamos completamente imbuidos de
este espritu por hacer algo por lo que
haba ocurrido me apoy. Entonces me
llev mi grabadora y grab a los actores, se les pidi que hicieran los gritos.
An as, cuando lo o, no era suficiente,
entonces les met por ah un fondo y
reverberacin pero bueno, yo no tena
filtros, no tena ecualizadores, cmaras
de reverberacin, nada absolutamente;
la reverberacin que hacamos en ese
entonces era el delay que se produce de
la cabeza de grabacin a la cabeza de
reproduccin, de tal manera que todo lo
que hicimos fue, como ya lo he dicho en
otras partes, con las uas.
BK: Y cmo fue la colaboracin? Haba
una idea muy fija de Leobardo sobre la
pelcula, tena fechas para estrenarla,
lanzarla pblicamente?

RSA: No recuerdo que hubiera fechas lmites, era lo que se pudiera hacer, l iba
planteando necesidades para el sonido y
sin decirlo me daba el tiempo de hacerlo
como pudiera y en el tiempo que fuera
necesario tomarse, l tambin estaba trabajando lentamente en lo suyo,
montando las imgenes. Todo fue estar
entregando pistas parciales de audio...
y bueno, la verdad es que nunca hubo
una entrega global, final, los sonidos
se los iba entregando conforme los iba
acabando.
BK: T sabes qu pas con la pelcula
una vez que entregaste todo?
RSA: Fue todo muy aleatorio, aunque
yo estaba empezando a trabajar en
cine realizando grabaciones y sonidos
directos, pues sta pelcula se hizo ms
que nada, cmo decirlo?, como algo
fuera de todo. Porque nos rebasaban yo
creo que a todos estos hechos, y ms
que algn mtodo era el entusiasmo por
dejar plasmado el testimonio, de alguna
manera, lo que nos gui, y ya pasaron
muchos aos, para m estn muy borrosos
esos recuerdos.

inmenso... pienso que documentos polticos como El Grito, por un lado, pierden su
valor histrico y en tanto archivo porque
son revisitados de la misma manera cada
vez; homenajes acerca de las mismas
cosas. No digo que hay que dejar de ver
foto
s de Tlatelolco otra vez, del 2
de octubre, pero hay que ponerlas en
otro contexto y hacer una colisin entre
imagen y sonido; entre evento y momento. Yo creo que esto puede permitir hacer
una excavacin ms honda y ver si esas
imgenes nos habitan o estn fuera de
nosotros, cules son nuestras percepciones, cmo nos afectan, y qu podemos
hacer con ellas y con nuestro propios
cuerpos.

CPA: Es muy interesante cmo se hace

visible este carcter abierto y en proceso
de la pelcula y en el que participaste; de
algo que luego soltaste todava estando
abierto el proceso.
BK: Creo que lo que estamos intentando hacer es intervenir el material para
revelar a nivel muy perceptual cmo la
poltica y los movimientos estn basados
en ilusiones, en imaginaciones. Yo me
considero alguien bastante politizada
pero al mismo tiempo quiero poner en
cuestin el impacto de la imagen y del
sonido, porque cuando los dos estn
juntos son muy fuertes y tienen un poder

Xalapa, Veracruz, febrero del 2014

Transcripcin de Carlos Prieto Acevedo.

Scenophony, vestiges and transgression

[Excerpt of a conversation between Bani Khoshnoudi, Mario de Vega
and Rodolfo Snchez Alvarado about the way in which he made the
soundtrack for the film, El Grito, considered one of the only filmic
testimonials from within the student movement, and which is
about its own development as a movement in 1968 and the brutal
end of it on October 2 in the Plaza de las Tres Culturas in Tlatelolco.
A collective document made within a context of authoritarianism and
governmental repression, which has become emblematic in Mexicos
modern history. What is the place of the real within material
composed from so many fragments, imprints and visions? How does
imagination work in structuring a political document of this type?]

Mario de Vega: As a starting point I wanted to ask you what you mean by scenophony, in order to then come back to El Grito,
the document that we are working with.
Rodolfo Snchez Alvarado: A quick definition would be to call it a sound costume
for a scenic act. Nevertheless, this is very
vague. I remember that someone once
said that scenophony is the costume
of the stage, for example, which would
make me a costume designer. He didnt
really get the metaphor; well, its a sound
costume in this case, sound made for the
stage, to be worked with like set design
In fact, I start from the concept of set design, which is all that is visual and corporeal and the site of dramatic development.
In my case it is sound in relation to the
stage. It came out of a long search.
Recently I got together with various colleagues to discuss in depth about how to
give a name to our work, to our contribution in theatre. Many of them make music
for the set, others say that they are sound
engineers or composers, and it occurred
to me to use this term that seems more
encompassing, scenophony.

Mario de Vega: When I hear you explain

what scenophony is, this is even more
motivating because you are touching exactly on the point that Im interested in,
since what we are interested in not at all
placing music on a visual event; on a visual document like this one. In my case,
Im not trying to make music at all, but
there are clearly the remains of the film El
Grito, there is the work that you did that
has a background and a specific form,
and now I think that what has to happen
is to transgress this, to fragment these
remains. For me it was important to know
how you understood it, how you understood the principle. To structure a sound
event for a visual event that does not
necessarily mean placing music on it. Its
not composing music for a video, a documentary. Now that Ive watched El Grito
about four times, what interests me above
all is that it seems that the image and the
sound are two separate things. Obviously
they live in a common space, but they are
not illustrating anything and now, what
Bani and I are trying to do is precisely
that, maybe even making it more radical.
How can I depart from your work, from

your sound treatment? Bani, whos working with the visual archive and I, with the
sound, but with the intention that in the
end it will be converted into a piece that
is more of a physical confrontation of the
spectator. And I think that scenophony
has a lot to do with it. Its very nice the
way you put it; a sound costume, but
a costume that is less of an article and
more of an aura, or an ether on the visual
condition that physically confronts the
spectator or imposes itself.
Bani Khoshnoudi: Following what Mario
is saying about the sound costume as
something apart from or separate from the
image, and in relation to what Ive read
about the way you worked on El Grito, with
sounds that were given to you by others
who had recorded them on the streets, and
how after only having seen some parts of
the film, you worked from your imagination. I would like you to talk to us more
about this, and to know if your imagination was based mostly on those images or
also on your own experiences and things
that you had seen in the streets during
that time when so much was happening in
Mexico. What was inspiring the way you
worked with the sound?
Rodolfo Snchez Alvarado: Many people
thought that I was very immersed in what
was happening in 1968 and all that
which I was, because it was not possible
not to be but that year in particular,
I had a lot of work, sound work, maybe
more than I have ever had after that. In
addition to my work at Radio Universidad,
I was working in cinema and theatre. It
was the Cultural Olympiad and I made an
electro-acoustic ballet with Rafael Elizondo and well, theatre and cinema pieces for
the Olympic Committee. I was completely
consumed with work, and then the project
El Grito fell into my lap. The events were

very intense for everyone who lived in the

city, but my work on the film didnt happen until the year after, in 1969. They
didnt have even one sound and so they
came to me. Back then, I was at the
CUEC (University Center of Film Studies)
giving classes, and they came to me and
asked me to do it; I did it from special
effects, made-up sounds and a song here
and there. I recorded some of those
songs in a different context, not within
the movement, and others were brought
to me by the people who had recorded
them at the events. I didnt even have
any time because I was working so much.
There was enormous pressure on me and I
was sleeping three to four hours a night,
thats how the situation was
Leobardo Lpez, who was the person
who organized the whole thing and who
played a major role in bringing the images
together, called me to help him with the
sound and well, there was nothing, except
for a few songs that already existed, but
the rest was to be invented. The idea
was to substitute the sound that was not
recorded and to invent it -there was no
other choice- based on sound effects and
imagination, for example simulating the
fights in order to put sound to the images of disputes. There are some shots in
the film taken in a hospital so I sent an
assistant to record in the waiting room
of a hospital; the sounds of the medical
instruments, and all that I had to invent
because, of course, the sound effects that
I already had were not very good and also
there was the aggravating fact that they
were recorded on vinyl, LPs, so there was
a lot of superficial noise, clicks and those
types of things, and I had to struggle
with all of that. Even now I have offered,
and Ive said it many times to people I
know at the Filmoteca, that I would like
to go back and redo the sound so that the
quality is more decent

Carlos Prieto Acevedo: Why did you do

it? Was it only because you were the only
person who knew how to or because you
felt responsible in a certain way?
Rodolfo Snchez Alvarado: There were
not many people who were working with
sound like I was. And at the same time,
I was at the CUEC; I cant remember if I
was already giving classes there but I had
many friends and acquaintances there like
Alfredo Joscowicz, Jos Rovirosa, and Leobardo himself. Many who were students
and some who were professors; all of us
shared a certain moral sentiment. If some
of our colleagues had gone to jail for filming, of course I felt some responsibility
to them; and well, also, there was no one
else really who was working with sound in
this manner. People were just starting to
do direct sound, although there was none
for the images I had, except for maybe a
very small percentage of the images. So
I had to fabricate them myself or recreate
them or return to record them, in the case
of some of the songs for example. The
rest of it was what others were gathering,
because there were cassette decks at the
time that they were taking to the demonstrations; a speech here or there, but not
synchronized with the film, of course. For
example, the gun shots. I remember that
they gave me two gunshots, but I dont
know who recorded them.

are talking, comparing and making comments in the recording that I have. And
in the other one, it gives the impression
that they are really close, too close, and I
dont know if it was a soldier or if someone hung a microphone from a window or
something. I dont really know and sincerely, I didnt even want to ask who did
it because Im sure I was afraid that they
may ask us or find out, so I didnt even
want to have that information on me, and
so I was careful or afraid, call it whatever
you like. The fact is that I didnt want to
know who recorded it.
Bani Khoshnoudi: That was precisely a
question that I wanted to ask; about the
fear one has when working with materials of this kind in a moment that is so
politically and socially difficult. And also,
the fear of giving so much force, so much
power to a visual archive with the sound
that you were creating. How did you feel
about the film when it was finished?

Mario de Vega: You didnt record it

you received it later on?

RSA: I will be honest with you. Ive

watched the film two or three times and
it has been a long time since I saw it.
Right now I dont have a clear image of
it. I remember some things that made an
impact on me, but I dont have a global
feeling of the film. With all that we are
discussing, it makes me want to go and
watch the film, to see what Ive done. I
need to go back and see the film again
and re-evaluate everything that has been
done there, no?

Rodolfo Snchez Alvarado: Almost all of

the material that I was given was recorded here and there, and it was known that
we had to take certain precautions, and
well, I will tell you sincerely, I didnt ever
know who had recorded the two gunshots
that I used. In one of them, you can tell
that they were journalists because they

MdeV: What you say motivates me a lot.

Speaking a little about the way in which
I have tried to approach this and how we
have started to work, each one on our
own. Like Bani with the sequences that
she has selected and the way she has
worked with them, I think that it functions like an interpretation. A big part

of the sounds that I have been making

are even antagonistic; they dont try to
illustrate an image. I think the challenge
and what is interesting for us is possibly
the same as what you did: to have an
audiovisual document, I mean, its obvious that you see an image and there is a
sound, but which does not correspond to
it 100 percent. I mean, that there is an
antagonism. The interesting thing for me
is to know, when does this antagonism
become a unit; at what moment does
this difference unify the two parts? For
example, right now while Im producing
the sound only digitally without having
any type of recording and without using
any of the sounds that are in the film
that you edited, but using different sequences of frequencies, or modulation of
this or that sound that do not come from
or correspond to an image; they dont
resonate with the basic idea of how the
document was made, but while I hear you
talk it seems that the approximation is
very similar. Thats why it was important
for me to hear you talk about the editing
process. It is inspiring to hear that you
did not go to the demonstrations with a
microphone in hand, risking your life, because maybe you would not be here today
to tell us all about it, but that the sounds
came from others and well, you edited
them and now we have the result.
BK: Well, and I wanted to ask you what
happened to the sounds that you didnt
use. For example, when I have worked
on similar projects, recording and filming
on my own, and later editing, I have felt
the responsibility of not only considering my own material, but to go and see
what others have filmed and put on Youtube. There are thousands of videos and
well, later, in a certain sense, I begin to
catalog all of that, and this is a way for
me to realize that there already exists an

archive. The dilemma is then to share

that archive and how to do it. I remember that putting this or that thing in the
edit was not only a thing of doubt, but
also a responsibility. And to also recognize what I was afraid to put in and what
I wasnt, to blur the faces of people in
order to protect their identity or not to.
With El Grito this was maybe not the case,
but I wanted to know what you did with
the material the voices of the soldiers
and all the rest. What would that archive,
from the materials that you did not use
and if it even exists, mean for todays
Mexico?
RSA: There was really not much material,
and I will confess that the only things
that I kept and that Im conscious that I
have archived are the two gunshots; that
is what I remember. Surely there is more
but the truth is that I dont have it clear
in my mind. And so much of what I produced and what people gave me, I later
put onto reels that I gave to Leobardo, as
he asked me to. He had given me a list of
reels in the way they are used in cinema.
I dont know how many reels there were,
like a dozen or more, and then there was
a list that would say: In reel 1, I need
this and that sound; in reel 2 this one
and that one, so I want to tell you
that I did the sound work how should
I say very much blindly. I saw isolated
images, but nothing put together. I dont
even remember having seen the film edited, and so my work was really very much
a blind one; very disconnected because
there are other things in cinema where
you see the image, synchronized
BK: Well, or if you are editing something
that is very different from the intentions
of the sounds, then you at least have the
film as a reference

RSA: Exactly and now with the computer

it is very easy to have the image in front
of you when you are working, but no
I was working completely in a blind way,
with my own personal experiences as my
reference, or with what I was seeing on
the news, with what people were talking about, but I didnt work with the
image in front of me at all. There was
only the relationship, the list of sounds
that Leobardo gave me, where he would
tell me in which sequence he needed the
sound of a demonstration, the sound of
a gunshot, another one of traffic, stuff
like that and well, I would go and
find them and put them together with
what they needed. I had to invent some
things, or use some sound effects. I
remember that one thing that Leobardo
asked me was the sound of a burial during a funeral, and I had to record it
behind my house, in the garden, the
sounds of a shovel digging. mountains
of dirt to invent them because we
didnt have that sound. And this is what
I do; I make sounds for the stage, for
theatre, and at a certain point I invent
them, I have to. It was the same when
I made the sound for El Grito, although I
had a lot less experience and fewer tools.
Thats how I had to do things, trying to
be the least picky as possible, its worth
using that word because, well, I didnt
have the right conditions.
But I would like to get back to an anecdote about the specific sound of the
gunshots from Tlatelolco, in the last part
of the film. I had two recordings of gunshots, but that is just what they were:
gunshots. There was no human factor, no
screams you couldnt hear screams in
the recordings that I had. Based on what
I knew, these were from a general recording of October 2, so there was a need to
have the sound of panic; the sound of
people panicking during the massacre in

Tlatelolco. I was searching but I couldnt

find a sound effect that had this panic
factor in it. And were not talking about
three little cats crying out, we needed a
mass of people, so we had to invent it,
for lack of the real thing, lets say. And
during that time, the film director Carlos
Velo came to Radio Universidad, for whom
I recorded something, although I dont
remember what, and I felt in confidence
with him so I asked for his help. Since
he was working at the Churubusco studios
and was a man of cinema, I thought that
he could help me with this issue of human
panic that I needed for the gunshot. So I
asked him: Maestro, could I ask you a favor; would it be possible for you to record
the sound of a multitude in panic? And he
told me: Why not, Ill do it, Ill get it for
you; count on it. And so I thought that
he had a stock of sounds in the Churubusco Studios and imagined great professionalism, no? And of course he splendidly did
what he promised and sent me a reel with
his assistant, but when I listened to it, it
was really lamentable, because although
there were panic cries, there were only a
couple of actors doing them, and this was
exactly what I was trying to avoid. The
sounds could seem ridiculous: eh, uh,
ah, eh, eh ah, ah!; something completely
makeshift, and so I definitely had to get
rid of that. So I ask Hctor Mendoza who
was working on a theatre piece and where
there were a dozen actors who could help
me. And since we were all imbued with
the spirit to do something because of
what had happened, he helped me. So I
took my recorder there and recorded the
actors, whom we asked to do the screams.
Even then, when I listened to them, it is
not enough so I put a background sound
of reverberation but well, I didnt have
filters or equalizers, reverberating chambers, absolutely nothing. The reverberation that we would do back then was delay

that is made from the start of recording

to the start of replaying; so much so that
everything we did, as Ive said before, we
did with the tips of our nails.
BK: And what was the collaboration like?
Did Leobardo have a fixed idea for the
film, was there a date when he wanted to
show it, to put it out to the public?
RSA: I dont remember there being deadlines, it was just being done however it
was possible. He would outline what was
needed in terms of sound and without
even saying it, he would give me time to
do it however I could, and whenever it
was necessary, would come to retrieve it.
He was also working slowly on his part,
editing the images. I was always just
delivering partial tracks of audio and
well, the truth is that there was never a
global or final delivery; I was giving him
the sounds as I was making them.
BK: Do you know what happened with
the film once you had delivered everything?

BK: I think that what we are trying to

do is to show how politics and social
movements can also be based on illusions
and the imagination. I consider myself
someone who is quite politicized but at
the same time I want to put into question the impact that image and sound can
have, because when those two things are
together they are much stronger and have
an immense amount of power I think
of political documents like El Grito, and
I think that on the one hand they somehow lose their historic and archival value
because they are revisited in the same
way every time; an homage to the same
things. Im not saying that we should
stop looking at photos of Tlatelolco, of
October 2, but that we have to put them
into a different context, to make a collision between the image and the sound,
between the event and the moment. I
think that this can allow us to do more
excavation and to see if these images inhabit us or if they are outside of us, what
our perceptions are, how they affect us
and what we can do with them and with
our own bodies.

RSA: It was all really random, although

I was starting to work in cinema doing
recording and direct sound. And this film
was made, how should I put it, on the
margins of everything. Because these
events had overwhelmed us all, I think,
and more than having a method, we had
the motivation to capture the testimony.
In some way, this is what guided us, and
now many years have passed and those
memories are very vague.
CPA: Its very interesting how you make
visible this open character, in process,
of the project that you participated in.
Something that you eventually let go of
while still being open to the process.
Traduccin: Bani Khoshnoudi

Documento de lo inexistente: el sonido de El Grito

Intentar un arqueologa es siempre asumir el riesgo de poner, unos
junto a otros, fragmentos de cosas sobrevivientes, necesariamente
heterogneas y anacrnicas debido a que proceden de sitios separados
y de tiempos separados por lagunas. Ahora bien, ese riesgo tiene dos
nombres: imaginacin y montaje.
Georges Didi-Huberman

Dos asuntos llevaron en primera instancia a

la creacin de este proyecto: la inexistencia
en Mxico de una reflexin sobre el documento sonoro como artefacto social y cultural;
y en segundo lugar el acceso al testimonio
vivo de quien realiz la banda de sonido de
la pelcula El Grito. Nos referimos a la figura
indmita pero olvidada de Rodolfo Snchez
Alvarado, un ingeniero de audio que mediante una exhaustiva praxis sonora desde los
aos cincuenta del siglo pasado hasta la actualidad, elabor por cuenta propia la teora
de la escenofona, fuertemente inspirada en
la msica concreta y basada en su propia relacin emprica con las mquinas de sonido.
Obligado por su oficio a inventar estrategias
y soluciones sonoras para su uso escnico,
radiofnico y cinematogrfico, Alvarado fue
quien confeccion el documento inexistente de un acontecimiento aural silenciado
por el estruendo totalitario del Mxico de las
Olimpiadas, en el ao funesto de 1968.
A estas dos motivaciones se adhiri una
tercera inquietud, de orden poltico y que
impregna todo el proyecto: qu constituye
al documento en tanto archivo de lo irrecuperable, de lo que fue?, eso que es imprescindible para la conformacin de otro presente,
distinto a ste de la implosin comunicativa,
que aspira a neutralizar la diferencia sensorial
que conforma nuestra experiencia esttica?
Qu subsiste del documento ms all de las
diferentes normalizaciones artsticas a las
que se ha prestado, ya sea como potica de
la memoria o como fetiche autobiogrfico?

Basta saber que algo ha sido recuperado en

un documento, que ha sido archivado, para
abandonar cualquier esfuerzo por implicarnos
con ello? La conservacin de los archivos
desde la perspectiva patrimonial del Estado y
sus instituciones ha sembrado la indiferencia
y ha roto el carcter crtico que el documento
potencialmente aporta al presente, mediante un manejo burocrtico y fastuoso de los
acontecimientos. En este contexto institucional y espectacular de la memoria, El Grito
es una anomala. El carcter fragmentario del
film, con sus fotografas, retazos de pelcula,
secuencias, facsmiles de peridico, ruidos
fabricados y voces en off (todos ellos materiales que ignoramos cmo llegaron ah, a la
sombra de la persecucin, la tortura sistemtica y la erradicacin de la evidencia), conspiran contra cualquier reconciliacin entre el
espectador y aquello que ve y escucha. Ese
aspecto monstruoso del collage colectivo y
la fabricacin de los sonidos que le dan vida
nos muestran que antes que la preservacin y
la fidelidad del registro, es la constitucin del
documento en el montaje donde se configura
un posible reconocimiento del espectador
como construccin textual y corprea de su
memoria histrica.
Aunque estrechamente ligadas, no es obvia la
relacin que se establece entre el documento
y la voluntad de resistencia. Es verdad que
algo ocurre ah que lucha, que se resiste a la
desintegracin, al desvanecimiento, a la desaparicin, a la no-existencia. Pero de quin

o quines depende esta lucha?, quines la

sostienen a lo largo de la historia, en las profundidades genealgicas de la oralidad y los
archivos personales? La particular manera de
permanecer de esto que se resiste, en la superficie de ese objeto de dudoso estatuto
ontolgico que es el documento, es lo que
hoy debe ser puesto en cuestin. Es ampliamente conocida la ecuacin simplificadora de
la propaganda en este asunto. En ella se da
por un hecho seguro sta relacin entre resistencia y documento, eximiendo a la persona
de cualquier tarea de produccin de sentido,
de alteracin de sus sentidos. Por otra parte
se nos obliga a desear las promesas de la alta
fidelidad: esa excrecencia tecnolgica de la
metafsica de la presencia combatida por
la deconstruccin desde hace aos. Sorprende que no sucumba an el documento en
tanto objeto paradjico frente las aberrantes
variaciones de la retrica verit. Tanto en
la propaganda como en las dems variantes
que aspiran a documentar lo que es de una
forma irrefutablemente verdadera, se le exime
al espectador de incorporar este documento
(esa cosa que ah vive y que sufri), en las
urgencias respectivas de su tiempo, ms
all de toda sntesis o de toda nostalgia. En
lugar de desestabilizar el presente y nuestra
relacin con l, estaramos consolidndolo
como objeto controlado por una subjetividad
adiestrada en la hermenutica de la sobre
informacin, despolitizndose.
Sabemos que el mejor y ms oportuno de los
recuerdos, es decir, de las seales que nos
llegan del pasado desde distintos lugares a
travs de fragmentos de muy diversa ndole
y consistencia, son aquellos que tienen lugar
en los momentos de peligro: cuando el
pasado irrumpe en el presente para cimbrarlo y no para confirmar su trayectoria. Aqu
la huella del pasado puede alterar el curso
establecido de las cosas que el poder busca
consagrar, sustituyendo al documento por
el monumento (ya sea escultrico, cinematogrfico, arquitectnico, musical, pictrico o literario). Esos objetos reaccionarios

conjuran la irrupcin de eso que resiste

en el documento, y que podra auxiliarnos
en momentos de emergencia, de amenaza.
Y tal vez el arte, con sus capacidades de
disociacin de los materiales y de inscribir
la paradoja en nuestra sensibilidad, hoy
tenga, entre otras, la tarea de sustraernos a
la sublimacin del conflicto en la experiencia
audiovisual. Mediante esta operacin el acto
artstico nos enfrenta a la realidad artificial
de nuestra memoria histrica, y a la tarea
que nos aguarda en el documento, permitindonos resistir a la inercia ergonmica de
la empata. El arte nos ayudara entonces a
entender que lo que ocurre con esta emocin
que se desencadena en nosotros pero que
se nos transfiere gracias a las grabaciones,
fotos, pedazos de peridicos, historias contadas; es ms un salir de s, para entrar en
contacto con ese Afuera que nos constituye
tambin. Ese espacio transversal y avasallador del acontecimiento. Ms que reconciliarnos con la historia, el arte nos pondr en
conflicto con ella, revelando la paradoja que
habita sus documentos.
1968: un archivo ciego busca plantear desde
las nociones de saturacin y repeticin un
choque entre las dos dimensiones poderosas
del sonido y la imagen, tomadas de El Grito.
Reinscritas en el soporte cinemtico que
nos permite ambas experiencias, tanto la empata ilusoria como la des-idealizacin de la
huella. Ese trazo que con frecuencia se considera habitada por la presencia privilegiada e
irrefutable de algo que resisti. Es posible
resistir desde la huella?
Tal vez eso que instiga a la resistencia en la
pelcula El Grito nos toca a nosotros inventarlo. Para ello tenemos al montaje y a la
imaginacin. No cabe duda de que estamos
en tiempos de peligro y que debemos tomar
ese riesgo.

Carlos Prieto Acevedo

Document of the nonexistent: the sound of El Grito

To invent an archeology is to forcibly assume the risk of putting together
fragments of things that have survived, which are necessarily heterogeneous and anachronistic because they come from separate places and
times, divided by lapses.
Now, this risk has two names: imagination and montage.
Georges Didi-Huberman

In the first place, two issues brought us to

create this project: the lack of reflection in
Mexico on the sound document as social and
cultural artifact, and secondly, having access
to the testimony of the person who made the
original soundtrack for the film El Grito. We
are referring to the indomitable but forgotten figure, Rodolfo Snchez Alvarado, a sound
engineer who through an exhaustive sound
practice that started in the 1950s, developed
his own theory of scenophony, very much
inspired by musique concrte and based on his
own empirical relationship to sound machines.
Forced by his profession to invent strategies
and sound solutions for use in theatre, radio
and cinema, Alvarado was the person who fabricated a document of an aural event silenced
by the totalitarian clatter of Mexico of the
Olympiads, in the fatal year of 1968.
In addition to these two motivations, a
third, political concern pervades the whole
project. What constitutes this document as
an archive of the irrecoverable, of what has
past, of what is essential for configuring a
different present; different from this communicative implosion that tries to neutralize
the sensorial differences that make up our
aesthetic experiences? What survives of this
archive after so many artistic banalizations
of it, whether it be as poetics of memory
or as autobiographic fetish? Is it enough
to know that something has been recorded
in a document that has been archived, and

thus allowing us to abandon any efforts to

involve ourselves with it? The State and its
institutions, with their patrimonial perspective on the preservation of documents, have
generated indifference and broken the critical
character that the archive could potentially
bring to the present. This is because of
a lavish, bureaucratic way of dealing with
events, which results in commemorations and
monuments, favored forms that ultimately
converge in collective oblivion. In this institutional context of memory as spectacle, El
Grito is an anomaly. The fragmented character of the film with its collected images, photos and fabricated sound, that for the most
part we ignore where they come from, denies
the spectator any possible reconciliation with
what he/she sees and hears. This monstrous
character of the collective collage and the invention of the sounds that give it life, show
us that more important than the preservation
and fidelity of the recording, is the construction in the editing of the document, where
the spectator can have the possibility to
recognize the textual and material fabrication
of his/her historical memory, inscribed in the
sensorial, and which is ultimately a task or a
job for the senses.
Although they are very closely tied, the relationship between the archive and the will to
resist is not an obvious one. It is true that
something happens at the site of struggle,
which resists disintegration, fading, disap-

pearance, and non-existence. But on whom

does the struggle depend? Who sustains
it throughout history, in the genealogical
depths of orality or personal archives? The
particular way in which this will to struggle
remains, on the surface of this object
of doubtful ontological status which is
the archive, is what needs to be put into
question. Within this issue, the equation
of the simplifying rhetoric of propaganda
is widely known. The relationship between
resistance and archive is taken for granted,
exempting people of any task of making
meaning or altering meanings. On the other
hand, it makes us desire the promises of hifidelity, this technological excrescence of the
metaphysical of presence, which has been
a target of deconstruction for many years. It
is remarkable that the archive as a paradoxical object still does not succumb in the face
of vulgar versions of the verit rhetoric. In
propaganda as in other attempts to document what is in an irrefutably true way,
the spectator is freed of all responsibility to
involve him/herself with the archive (that
real object that carries life and suffering),
in the urgent moments respective of his/
her time, beyond all synthesis and nostalgia.
Rather than destabilizing the present and our
relationship to it, we would be consolidating it as a controlled object by our trained
subjectivities in the hermeneutics of overinformation, depoliticizing oneself.
We know that the best and most timely
memories, or let us say messages that come
to us from distinct places from the past, by
way of fragmented archives of diverse nature
and consistency, are those that take place in
moments of danger: when the past invades
the present in order to shake it, instead of
confirming its trajectory. Here the remnants
of the past can alter the established course
of things, while power tries to consecrate by
substituting the document with the monument (whether it be sculptural, cinematographic, architectonic, musical, pictorial or

literary). These reactionary objects conjure

up an eruption of that which resists in the
document and that could help us in urgent
or threatening moments. Maybe art, with
its capacity to dislocate materials and to
introduce paradoxes into our sensibility, has
the role, amongst others, to get us out of
our sublimation of conflict when inside the
audiovisual experience. By means of this
process, the artistic act confronts us with
the artificial reality of our historical memory,
and with the work that is awaiting us in the
document, and in this way can allow us to
resist the inertia of ergonomic empathy. So
art will help us understand what occurs with
this emotion that is triggered in us, but that
has been transferred onto us by recordings,
photos, pieces of newspaper, and recounted
stories. It is more about being enraptured in
order to enter in contact with this Outside
that constitutes us as well; this transversal
and overwhelming space of the event. More
than a reconciliation with history, art will put
us in conflict with it, revealing the paradox
that inhabits its documents.
1968: a blind archive uses notions of saturation and repetition in order to establish
a shock between the powerful dimensions
of sound and image taken from El Grito.
Re-inscribed in the cinematic space, this
medium allows different experiences: illusory
empathy or de-idealization of the remnant;
the remnant that is frequently considered
inhabited by the privileged and irrefutable
presence of something that has resisted.
Do the remnants make it possible to resist?
Maybe with the document of El Grito, it is
up to us to invent that which continues to
instigate resistance. We have imagination
and montage that allow us to do that. There
is no doubt that we are in times of danger
and that we have to take the risk.
Carlos Prieto Acevedo
Traduccin: Bani Khoshnoudi

Hacer un sonido

de pnico

Absolutamente a ciegas

Carlos Prieto Acevedo: direccin artstica y coordinacin editorial

Zosim Silva: diseo grfico, formacin y tratamiento de imagen impresa
Mario de Vega: diseo y tratamiento sonoro
Bani Khoshnoudi: edicin y tratamiento de imagen
Este proyecto fue posible gracias al inters y al apoyo de FICUNAM, Alumnos47 y Centro Cultural Espaa en Mxico.
Nuestro especial agradecimiento a Eva Sangiorgi, Adriana Maurer, Ana Tom y Rodolfo Snchez Alvarado.
Esta publicacin es parte de la pieza audiovisual 1968:un archivo ciego, y se sugiere su distribucin cada vez que sea exhibida. Est estrictamente prohibida su venta y consta de un tiraje de 1968 ejemplares impresos en Taller Orozco en la colonia
Obrera de la ciudad de Mxico, en febrero del 2014. Fu impreso en papel Educacin 75 gramos. / This publication is part
of the audio-visual piece 1968: a blind archive, and its distribution is suggested whenever it is exhibited. Its sale is strictly
prohibited. The edition consist of 1968 copies printed in Mexico City, in February, 2014.