Derivative

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Respuesta ms reciente: 10/11/2007 12:00 AM por WERNER CYRMON
31/10/2007 12:00 AM
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Derivative
Is there a way to use f'(x) instead of d/dx f(x)? Werner WERNER CYRMON
168 artculos desde 25/09/2008
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31/10/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a jmgiraud)
Derivative
WERNER CYRMON
Thanks to all Werner

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31/10/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a WERNER CYRMON)
Derivative
jmgiraud
15.157 artculos desde 15/11/2007
On 10/31/2007 9:05:56 AM, cyxturbo wrote: >Is there a way to use f'(x) >instead of d/dx f(x)? >Werner ______________________
jmG
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Derivative06.gif (4.7 K)
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http://communities.ptc.com/message/78047
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Derivative
... more
jmG
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Derivative
Valery Ochkov
It is not correct to plot on same plot a function and its derivative! It is not a values with same dimention! We must use differett plots! Val http://twt.mpei.ac.ru/ochkov/v_ochkov.htm
Derivative
Valery Ochkov
Try please f + ctrl-F7 for f' or d + crtl-Shift-k + / etc and at and again d + crtl-Shift-k See too http://twt.mpei.ac.ru/MAS/Worksheets/derivative.mcd Val http://twt.mpei.ac.ru/ochkov/v_ochkov.htm
08/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a Valery Ochkov)
Derivative - remark
Valery Ochkov
On 10/31/2007 9:19:38 AM, VFO wrote: >Try please f + ctrl-F7 for f' Remark. ctrl-F7 for f' is an operatot too - in the Given-Odesolve block! See one example http://twt.mpei.ac.ru/mas/worksheets/shooting.mcd Val http://twt.mpei.ac.ru/ochkov/v_ochkov.htm
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Derivative
Sort of. You can do this, and hide the intermediate definition in a collapsed area. Kind of a Richard Jackson
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kludge, but it works. Richard
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derivative as prime.mcd (3.8 K)
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01/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a StuartBruff)
Derivative - one plot with function and derivative
Valery Ochkov
Sorry, I have opened a "Pandora box" or what is this name in English... Val http://twt.mpei.ac.ru/ochkov/v_ochkov.htm
StuartBruff
On 11/1/2007 8:00:52 AM, VFO wrote: == Sorry, I have opened a "Pandora box" or what is this name in English... As long as you remembered to let Hope out with all the troubles, we should be OK :-) ... On the other hand, perhaps 'Can of Worms' might be more appropriate! Stuart
WERNER CYRMON
On 11/1/2007 8:00:52 AM, VFO wrote: >Sorry, I have opened a >"Pandora box" or what is this >name in English... >Val >http://twt.mpei.ac.ru/ochkov/v >_ochkov.htm just read some articles from cern, looked over some issues of sciam,phyz,... lots of mulitple functions plots there.. And guys: what is it with my threads? ;-) Looking around in collab the most threads have fewer than 10, maybe 15 answer2. Threads started by me always "explode" *g*
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Werner
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Derivative
On 11/1/2007 9:57:55 AM, cyxturbo wrote: jmgiraud

>On 11/1/2007 7:49:30 AM, jmG wrote: >And what about if the function is not differentiable !!! ??? < > I think at first Val critized your plot of >the normal distribution ;-) and what >about not differentiable, nobody tried >to plot that in one plot (as u should >know, because you created it) >.... Werner ______________________ Can you please link me to where I was wrongdoing for the collab community . Most of the times plotting the derivative is informal only. Just take what's useful for your project(s).
There is quite a lot under the hood of the "Curvator" !
jmG
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Derivative
jmgiraud
Before any collab comes back on the above (my last post and image) with all sorts of comments and genius suggestions. The fitting function had the constrains for passing exactly through 4 specific points, which then excludes all the traditional methods, though I have no recollection of trying Cheby ... and whatever, neither Cheby will pass exactly ! On the top the
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derivative had to be continuous and smooth. The most innocent looking data set might turn blood to javex water. jmG
Derivative
And what about if the function is not differentiable !!! ??? jmgiraud
"The Blancmange function, also called the Takagi fractal curve (Peitgen and Saupe 1988), is a pathological continuous function which is nowhere differentiable. The iterations towards the continuous function are batrachions resembling the Hofstadter-Conway $10,000 sequence." [Mathworld] =>a pathological function<=
jmG
Derivative
On 11/1/2007 7:49:30 AM, jmG wrote: WERNER CYRMON

>And what about if the function >is not differentiable !!! ??? > >"The Blancmange function, also >called the Takagi fractal >curve (Peitgen and Saupe >1988), is a pathological >continuous function which is >nowhere differentiable. The >iterations towards the >continuous function are >batrachions resembling the >Hofstadter-Conway $10,000
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>sequence." [Mathworld] > >=>a pathological function<= > > >jmG I think at first Val critized your plot of the normal distribution ;-) and what about not differentiable, nobody tried to plot that in one plot (as u should know, because you created it) .... Werner
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StuartBruff
On 11/1/2007 7:49:30 AM, jmG wrote: And what about if the function is not differentiable !!! ??? What about it? Stuart
StuartBruff
On 11/1/2007 10:03:38 AM, cyxturbo wrote: == just read some articles from cern, looked over some issues of sciam,phyz,... lots of mulitple functions plots there.. Eek! An "Appeal to Authority" argument! == And guys: what is it with my threads? ;-) Leaving aside this thread, you will find that any thread that asks for anything different from M11.2a capabilities offers the potential for 'discussion'. eg: http://collab.mathsoft.com/read?58768,12 == Looking around in collab the most threads have fewer than 10, maybe 15 answer2. == Threads started by me always "explode" *g* Call them explosions?
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Nah, they're not explosions ... Now this is an explosion: http://collab.mathsoft.com/read?91262,11 'Units' are an ever popular source of debate :-) Stuart (Only read the referenced threads if you're very bored)
Derivative
Valery Ochkov
One old INCORRECT math task. We have f(x). Show me x where f(x)>f'(x)! Show me please ONE meaning of crossing f(x) and f'(x) on the plot! It is not "pure" mathematics - it is INCORRECT mathematics, sorry! Val http://twt.mpei.ac.ru/ochkov/v_ochkov.htm
Derivative
WERNER CYRMON
On 11/1/2007 3:08:36 AM, VFO wrote: >One old INCORRECT math task. >We have f(x). Show me x where >f(x)>f'(x)! Show me please ONE >meaning of crossing f(x) and >f'(x) on the plot! It is not >"pure" mathematics - it is >INCORRECT mathematics, >sorry! Val http://twt.mpei.ac. >ru/ochkov/v_ochkov.htm If you mean intersection (crossing?) of the two I can not. But showing them in the same plot: e.g. where the 1st derivative has its zero the function has a (local) max/min, show graphically that the 1.der of cos is sin .....
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Valery Ochkov
>But showing them in the same plot: e.g. >where the 1st derivative has its zero >the function has a (local) max/min, show >graphically that the 1.der of cos is sin We can fine show it on two separate plots!
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When we have 2 or more curves on one plot we can/must say - look please, here the value of f1 is more than the value of f2 etc... It is a meaning 2 or more curves on one plot! Sorry! Val http://twt.mpei.ac.ru/ochkov/v_ochkov.htm
Derivative
Valery Ochkov
In Mathcad MM see http://collab.mathsoft.com/~mathcad2000/read?960,12 x:=1 x^2+x=error as m^2+m or kg+sec but 1^2+1=2 Val http://twt.mpei.ac.ru/ochkov/v_ochkov.htm
Derivative
Tom Gutman
>>It is not correct to plot on same plot a function and its derivative! It is not a values with same dimention!<< A function and its derivative will have different dimensions iff the independent variable has dimensions. They will have the same dimensions if the independent variable is dimensionless (e.g., fractional position along a bar, number of half-lives, etc.). Tom Gutman
02/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a Tom Gutman)
Derivative
Valery Ochkov
> They will have the same dimensions if > the independent variable is dimensionless Sorry, but it is not correct Sorry again - Mathcad is not "pure" mathematic but an "Excel for engineers". One little example in one my field (gas turbine). We can use kg/kg or mol/mol as units for gas concentration. It is dimensionless? And what about 0.001*kg/kg + 0.0002*mol/mol=? In my canculation I have an error! See http://www.vsp.ru http://twt.mpei.ac.ru/ochkov/Units/Foreword.htm Val http://twt.mpei.ac.ru/ochkov/v_ochkov.htm
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>>Sorry, but it is not correct<< Tom Gutman

In what way is it not correct? >>Sorry again - Mathcad is not "pure" mathematic but an "Excel for engineers".<< Which means???? And is relevant to this topic because???? >>One little example in one my field (gas turbine). We can use kg/kg or mol/mol as units for gas concentration. It is dimensionless? And what about 0.001*kg/kg + 0.0002*mol/mol=? In my canculation I have an error!<< Certainly. But would .001*kg/kg +.002*kg/kg be any better? The error is not one of mismatched units, but of logic. Concentration is an intensive property, and you can't add such quantities together. Tom Gutman
Derivative
Valery Ochkov
On 11/2/2007 2:04:12 AM, Tom_Gutman wrote: >>>Sorry, but it is not correct<< >In what way is it not correct? Sorry - in all ways! >>>Sorry again - Mathcad is not "pure" mathematic but an "Excel for engineers". >Which means???? PTC >>>One little example in one my field (gas turbine). We can use kg/kg or mol/mol as units for gas concentration. It is dimensionless? And what about 0.001*kg/kg + 0.0002*mol/mol=? In my canculation I have an error! >Certainly. But would >.001*kg/kg +.002*kg/kg be any better? Who can say no! But I am not Got and can do errors in calculations! Second example. In calculation http://twt.mpei.ac.ru/MAS/Worksheets/PGU.mcd m (Sp.Enthalpy/Sp.Entalpy) is not dimensionless too! In nature we have not dimensionless values! Sorry, I have not time to translate into English one chapter from my book http://twt.mpei.ac.ru/ochkov/Units/Foreword.htm
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Can you give me some link on your articles, Mr. X, pardon Mr. Tom Gutman? Show your face, please! Sorry again, but I feel that I have contact not with Tom Gutman but with Got without errors and apprehensions. Val http://twt.mpei.ac.ru/ochkov/v_ochkov.htm
Derivative
On 11/2/2007 1:53:42 AM, VFO wrote: Richard Jackson

>Sorry again - Mathcad is not >"pure" mathematic but an >"Excel for engineers". Mathcad is a tool. Anyone can use that tool to elucidate any applicable problem, whether it it pure math, physics, or engineering. As for overlaying derivatives with the original data, I do it frequently. I overlay the second derivative of a spectrum with the original spectrum. I don't care that the y-axes are not the same dimension (or even close when it comes to scale). I am interested only in the positions of the minima in the second derivative, because they correspond to the maxima of underlying peaks in the original data. It's a very useful, and very commonly employed, technique for looking at the structure of overlapped bands. Since it is useful, for my purposes is is also correct to do this. Richard
07/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a Richard Jackson)
Derivative
jmgiraud
On 11/2/2007 6:17:09 PM, rijackson wrote: >On 11/2/2007 1:53:42 AM, VFO wrote: > >>Sorry again - Mathcad is not >>"pure" mathematic but an >>"Excel for engineers". > >Mathcad is a tool. Anyone can use that >tool to elucidate any applicable >problem, whether it it pure math, >physics, or engineering. >.......... > >Richard ____________________ Everybody had their points, well supported . Showing the derivative on the same plot as the function this is totally wrong as a graph is not an analytical "renderer" (if such a word prints in the mind). Then let's say a graph is only a "relational renderer" , next is to invent an analytical graph that will satisfy all parties.
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As fascinating as watching the Archimede screw at work. Valery's point (in my own words) is that plotting the derivative on the same graph as the function, the plot of the derivative MAY NOT be the "trace evidence" of the function, but only a "forged math" relationship in picture... "forged" is the keyword. Thanks Valery for your input, correcting a mispractice and pointing to it. As a "Doctor in Technology of Information", you have doctored this community once more. jmG
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Compromise
Compromise f and f' Plot: Valery Ochkov

But two separate plots are better and more correct! For "pure" Math too! Stubborn Val http://twt.mpei.ac.ru/ochkov/v_ochkov.htm PS We need 3-d y axis for an acceleration ;-)
Compromise
StuartBruff
On 11/8/2007 2:53:46 AM, VFO wrote: == Compromise f and f' Plot: == PS We need 3-d y axis for an acceleration ;-)
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Or one could perhaps view the graph of a function, derivative, 2nd derivative, etc as a being on separate parallel planes projected onto a 2D surface :-) Stuart
Derivative
Sometimes it makes sense, think "pure" mathematics, so there are no units ! 1st deriv. is a WERNER CYRMON
function like any other, so plotting it together with the function itself is not wrong and can give some insights ... W.
Derivative
StuartBruff
On 11/1/2007 4:34:23 AM, VFO wrote: >But showing them in the same plot: e.g. >where the 1st derivative has its zero >the function has a (local) max/min, show >graphically that the 1.der of cos is sin == We can fine show it on two separate plots! == When we have 2 or more curves on one plot we can/must say - look please, here the value of f1 is more than the value of f2 etc... == It is a meaning 2 or more curves on one plot! Sorry! Technically, you are right, Valery, if you plot the curves and preserve their units. However, there is the option (not available in Mathcad ... yet) to give 2 y axes on the lhs and the ability to plot a seperate y axis, correctly labelled for the 2 functions, is also available - I don't see the objection to this latter as the 2 plots are now correctly dimensionally identified. Furthermore, it should be OK to plot both curves on the same axis if they are divided by their respective units to reduce them to dimensionless form. I agree with Werner that concurrent display makes it far easier to relate the plots to each other, eg one can add an x-axis marker representing the minimum value of f(x) and see the corresponding value of f'(x). Stuart
Derivative
WERNER CYRMON
NO its not the same, u have to move your eyes. So if you plot x^2 and 2x in the same plot its OK, but it you mention that the second is the 1st derivative of the first its not?? BTW: this has nothing to do with the theme of the thread
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Derivative
>>rad+sr=error in Mathcad 11 Tom Gutman

rad+sr=2 in Mathcad 12/13/14<< So in MC12 they changed steradians to a dimensionless unity, presumably to be consistent with their previous definition of radians to be a dimensionless unity, presumably to be consistent with the incorrect standard convention of treating angles as dimensionless. However the idiosyncracies of Mathcad and the standards commitees are not really the point. The fact is that a function of a dimensionless quantity (truly dimensionless, not just treated as dimensionless by convention) has a derivative with the same dimensions as the function. BTW, do you have any problems with plotting both the sine and cosine of an angle on the same graph? Despite the fact that one is the derivative of the other? Tom Gutman
Derivative
Valery Ochkov
On 11/2/2007 6:13:35 PM, Tom_Gutman wrote: >>>rad+sr=error in Mathcad 11 >rad+sr=2 in Mathcad 12/13/14<< > >So in MC12 they changed >steradians to a dimensionless >unity, presumably to be >consistent with their previous >definition of radians to be a >dimensionless unity, >presumably to be consistent >with the incorrect standard >convention of treating angles >as dimensionless. Sorry, but radian has unit m/m, sreradian m^2/m^2. In Mathcad Reference table we (sorry, I) see unit errors too - Thermal Conductivity must have unit not watt/(cm K) but watt cm/(cm^2 K). Electrical Resistivity - not ohm*m but ohm*m^2/m. Yes, we can simplify units. Util 1 too. But we (sorry, I) must remember that it is not (quite) correct and has one consequence - errors in calculations! After simplify to 1 an unit is not dimensionless! If You can simplify one unit yo ZERO you can say that it is dimensionless! I think it, I feel it!
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> >However the idiosyncracies of >Mathcad and the standards >commitees are not really the >point. The fact is that a >function of a dimensionless >quantity (truly dimensionless, >not just treated as >dimensionless by convention) >has a derivative with the same >dimensions as the function. Not "the fact is" better "I think, I weel..." >BTW, do you have any problems >with plotting both the sine >and cosine of an angle on the >same graph? Despite the fact >that one is the derivative of >the other? Yes, I (we) can plot. But I no that points sin(x)=cos(x) have no purport in Nature! Val http://twt.mpei.ac.ru/ochkov/v_ochkov.htm
Derivative
>>Sorry - in all ways!<< Tom Gutman

That covers a lot of ground. But I made a fairly simple and limited statement. Show me how you calculate the dimensions of a derivative. >>PTC<< An administrative detail. Not really relevent to the question of the dimensions of a derivative. >>In nature we have not dimensionless values!<< I beg to disagree. Indeed, I gather that one of the goals of modern physics is to develop a theory based only on dimensionless quantities. And there are some. While I don't pretend to have any understanding of its meaning, I believe that there is something called the fine structure constant which is dimensionless. Also, since space and time are just different directions in the same four dimensional space-time, they are really the same sort of units. Hence velocities are all dimensionless, with the natural scale of c, the velocity of light in a vacuum. >>Can you give me some link on your articles, Mr. X, pardon Mr. Tom Gutman? Show your face, please!<< Sorry. What you see is what you get. I am not in academia, so I have no published works. Nor do I maintain a web site. What I post in this collaboratory is me. If you really want more of me, I still frequent a couple of the old Compuserve forums. But I am not very active in them any more, neither are the forums. And I doubt that you would be interested in them.
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Tom Gutman
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>one of the goals of modern physics is Valery Ochkov

>to develop a theory based only on >dimensionless quantities Let stay us on the field Engineering Calculation (Mathcad) where we have not dimensionsless values. One little example: rad+sr=error in Mathcad 11 rad+sr=2 in Mathcad 12/13/14 In Mathcad MM I have Re + Nu = error!!! Sorry for my interest to you. It is one question on the russian Mathcad forum too. Who is Tom Gutman - no information in internet... Val http://twt.mpei.ac.ru/ochkov/v_ochkov.htm
Derivative
Richard Jackson
On 11/2/2007 7:14:14 AM, VFO wrote: > Who is Tom Gutman How about "someone that obviously knows a lot about math and Mathcad, and uses that knowledge to help a lot of people on this forum". As far as this forum goes, those are the only qualifications needed. Richard
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StuartBruff
On 11/2/2007 7:14:14 AM, VFO wrote: == Sorry for my interest to you. It is one question on the russian Mathcad forum too. Who is Tom Gutman - no information in internet... Do you think not? :-) However, seconding Richard's remark, I'd like to extend it - Tom has an outstanding
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record for getting things right and focussing on the essentials. Tom's track record on this Collaboratory is sufficient to establish his technical credibility in my eyes. As, I might add, is yours. But, changing tack, it doesn't really matter if Tom writes under a pseudonym, has 5 PhDs in mathematics, a Nobel Prize and has published in everything of value in the mathematical world ... or is a 3 foot rhesus monkey owned by that well-known playwright Mr Shakespeare. Appeals to authority, or lack of it, have little bearing on the content. What, IMO, counts is "Are these comments about this matter valid?" and that's all that counts. Stuart
Derivative
From Tom Gutman Valery Ochkov

>What you see is what you get. >I am not in academia, >so I have no published works. >Nor do I maintain a web site. >What I post in this collaboratory is me. Sorry for my interest again. I know not many guru in Mathcad - Tom is one (first?) of them. But each Mathcad-guru has created some worksheets in some field of Science or Technolodgy (physic, chemistry, thermal engineering etc.). It was my question - what is a field of Science or Technolodgy of Tom. Second sorry. For my english. I did not want to offend somebody! 3-th - We must think, doubt, find new too but not only repeat old truth. I have created a lot (Web)WorkSheets with units and can say - We (must) have not any dimensionless values!
Val http://twt.mpei.ac.ru/ochkov/v_ochkov.htm
Derivative
jmgiraud
Very interesting the debate about derivative . The 1rst deriv is the speed at which a function varies, the 2nd deriv is the acceleration , and so on. The units of derivative are m/s,,, then not derived units but derivatives units . Often, same things are expressed in different words jmG
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>And the standard does reduce m/m to 1. Valery Ochkov

Mathcad reduce J/kg (specific energy) to m^2/s^2 It is not good! I correct it. Mathcad and Tom reduce rad (m/m, angle) to 1. It is not correct too. But I understant it! But I not understant why rad+sr=2. Must be error! Val http://twt.mpei.ac.ru/ochkov/v_ochkov.htm
Derivative
>>Mathcad and Tom reduce rad (m/m, angle) to 1.<< Tom Gutman
No, Mathcad and the standard commitee express radians that way. I do not accept that angles are m/m. It is a common convention, but not correct. >>But I not understant why rad+sr=2. Must be error!<< It cannot be identified as an error unless angles are made a dimension (using whatever terminology -- I suspect Mathcad may eventually just adopt idiosyncratic nomenclature so as to be able to claim adherence to international standards while actually being more correct) and not made dimensionless. Tom Gutman
Derivative
StuartBruff
On 11/3/2007 3:54:55 AM, VFO wrote: >And the standard does reduce m/m to 1. =Mathcad reduce J/kg (specific energy) to m^2/s^2 =It is not good! I correct it. =Mathcad and Tom reduce rad (m/m, angle) to 1. =It is not correct too. But I understant it! =But I not understant why rad+sr=2. Must be error! Mathcad carries out dimensional analysis. Mathcad has no way of knowing what you meant by the ratio of any two quantities of the same kind as it doesn't keep track of the quantities or allow a user to specify the quantity.
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All Mathcad knows is that, according to the ISO/SI rules of dimensional analysis, dimensions combine in a given way - a metre divided by a metre (eg, ISO definition of angular measure) has exactly the same dimension as a centimetre divided by a kilometre (eg, map scaling) (or milligrams divided by kilograms (eg, drug mass to body mass ratio) or miles-per-hour divided by miles-per-hour (eg, Mach Number)). And if you wish to combine quantities of the same dimension then there is no mathematical reason why you should not be able to - how could Mathcad, following the rules, tell that somebody had inadvertently manipulated 'incompatible' quantities when they have the same dimension? It is entirely up to the user to keep track of what the actual quantities are and ensure that angles can't be added to map scales (or Mach numbers). Unless, for example, Mathcad were to modify its 'unit' handling system to track quantities ... Stuart
Derivative
>>Sorry, but radian has unit m/m, sreradian m^2/m^2.<< Tom Gutman
That is the standard fiction. I believe it to be wrong. ANd the standard does reduce m/m to 1. >>Not "the fact is" better "I think, I weel..."<< The fact. Demonstrable by calculations. Go ahead, calculate the dimensions of a derivative. It's not difficult to do. >>But I no that points sin(x)=cos(x) have no purport in Nature!<< 45 angles have no purport in nature????? The diagonal of a square is not significant????? Tom Gutman
Derivative
Tom Gutman
I'm not a scientist or engineer. Professionally, I'm a programmer. Most of my posted sheets reflect the science or engineering from the original requestor. Sheets original to me are generally exploring Mathcad as a tool, how to accomplish certain tasks using Mathcad rather than the solution to scientific or engineering problems. But if you are interested in what sheets I've created, they're just about all here in the collaboratory. Just read them. Tom Gutman
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Valery Ochkov
On 11/6/2007 7:03:03 PM, Tom_Gutman wrote: >I'm not a scientist or >engineer. Professionally, I'm >a programmer. Most of my >posted sheets reflect the >science or engineering from >the original requestor. >Sheets original to me are >generally exploring Mathcad as >a tool, how to accomplish >certain tasks using Mathcad >rather than the solution to >scientific or engineering >problems. But if you are >interested in what sheets I've >created, they're just about >all here in the collaboratory. >Just read them. > > Tom Gutman OK! And wath about program outside this forum. >Professionally, I'm a programmer. Programs in what field? Do you created one Mathcad praxis WorkSheet with units? Thank you. Val http://twt.mpei.ac.ru/ochkov/v_ochkov.htm
Derivative
>Very interesting the debate about derivative. Valery Ochkov

Not - about ' See the first question and answer! Val http://twt.mpei.ac.ru/ochkov/v_ochkov.htm
Derivative
StuartBruff
On 11/7/2007 8:32:28 AM, jmG wrote: == However, Valery is totally right , just a matter of catching the hint. I disagree. The purpose of a graph is to convey information to a human. Plotting a function, f say and it's derivative (or some other function of f) helps convey the relationship between the zeros of the derivative and the extremes of the function. It is certainly clearer if the 2 are overlaid rather than being physically separated, for reasons Werner gave.
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The following is from the SP811, the NIST Guide for the Use of the International System of Units (SI): 2.1.1 Tables and graphs In tables, values of quantities expressed in acceptable units and the corresponding values expressed in other units may be shown in parallel columns, with the acceptable-unit column preceding the other-unit column. In graphs, axes labeled in other units shall be given secondary status. This may preferably be done by placing scale marks on and labeling the left-hand ordinate and bottom abscissa in acceptable units, and placing scale marks on and labeling the right-hand ordinate and top abscissa in other units. Alternatively, lighter-weight scale marks and smaller type may be employed to indicate other units using the same ordinate and abscissa as is used for the acceptable units. This indicates the need to sensibly differentiate between different quantities but does not restrict graphs to the display of only a given quantity. Furthermore, the BIPM Pocket Guide to the SI states: Because units symbols are mathematical entities, they may be treated by the ordinary rules of algebra. For example, the equation T = 293 K may equally be written T/K = 293. This procedure is described as the use of quantity calculus, or the algebra of quantities. It is often useful to use the ratio of a quantity to its unit for heading the columns of a table, or labelling the axes of a graph, so that the entries in the table or the labels of the tick marks on the axes are all simply numbers. http://www.bipm.org/utils/common/pdf/si_pocket_en.pdf Which provides a mathematical basis for allowing mixing of functions and their derivatives. == Quite a few collab (myself included) have got advices from 8701 visits and how many goodies, tricks, tips, Valery had generously given to this community. As I intimated earlier in this thread, Valery has indeed proven his competence many times in this Collaboratory. However, that doesn't mean he is automatically any more right than Tom is. Stuart
Derivative
jmgiraud
On 11/7/2007 1:37:26 PM, stuartafbruff wrote: >On 11/7/2007 8:32:28 AM, jmG wrote: >== However, Valery is totally right , >just a matter of catching the hint. > >I disagree. [Stuart]
>== Quite a few collab (myself included) >have got advices from 8701 visits and >how many goodies, tricks, tips, Valery >had generously given to this community. > >As I intimated earlier in this thread, >Valery has indeed proven his competence
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>many times in this Collaboratory. >However, that doesn't mean he is >automatically any more right than Tom >is. > >Stuart _____________________ Let's leave the trivial trig cases aside and consider the example below, the straight line is the graph of the derivative of a function, what is the function ?
Answer: infinitely many functions in the Cartesian plane . Functions are like Angels, many kinds ... except that Angels have sex that can't be viewed by naked eyes and functions have "Cartesian sex" that can't be viewed by their derivative graph only for many kind of functions . Nothing wrong showing the derivative of a function on the same graph as the function, but the sense can come only from the "calibration forgery", like in the work sheet I passed, or from the context like in the work sheet >Normal Tangent< I passed this summer again. Or in the best case where the sense comes from the function itself. That was a kind reminder from Val. which is worth not degrading. Thanks for your interest. jmG
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StuartBruff
On 11/7/2007 3:12:09 PM, jmG wrote: == However, Valery is totally right , >> I disagree. [Stuart] == Nothing wrong showing the derivative of a function on the same graph as the function, but the sense can come only from the "calibration forgery", like in the work sheet I passed, or from the context like in the work sheet >Normal Tangent< I passed this summer again. Or in the best case where the sense comes from the function itself. == That was a kind reminder from Val. which is worth not degrading. Let me remind you of what Valery said: -- On 11/1/2007 1:56:03 AM, VFO wrote: -- It is not correct to plot on same plot a function and its derivative! Are you saying that on the one hand Valery is "totally correct", ie , one should not plot a function
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and its derivative on the same plot, and, on the other hand, that there is "Nothing wrong showing the derivative of a function on the same graph as the function"? Stuart 26*31 10+10=101
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jmgiraud
>Are you saying that on the one hand Valery is "totally correct", ie , one should not plot a function and its derivative on the same plot, and, on the other hand, that there is "Nothing wrong showing the derivative of a function on the same graph as the function"? Stuart< ___________________________ No, I can't say two things simultaneously from only one mouth. What I'm saying is that the derivative is a function that relates to it's generatrix only if calibrated, like calibrating or zeroing an instrument. You pretty well understand what I mean because you couldn't find the complete generatrix of the graph of the derivative previously inserted in text posted above . Ah ! Val just cautioned the community not to lose track of the function under the hood, like a wise wolf reminds the puppies there may be a snake in the garden for the spectacle or for the bite. jmG
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StuartBruff
On 11/7/2007 6:22:00 PM, jmG wrote: == Val just cautioned the community not to lose track of the function under the hood, like a wise wolf reminds the puppies there may be a snake in the garden for the spectacle or for the bite. How do you read that into this? >> It is not correct to plot on same plot a function and its derivative! It is not a values with same dimention! We must use differett plots! This isn't a "caution" in the sense of "beware of the pitfalls in what you're doing"; it is a clear statement that one should not graph a function and it's derivative on the same plot. Full stop. == What I'm saying is that the derivative is a function that relates to it's generatrix only if calibrated, like calibrating or zeroing an instrument. You pretty well understand what I mean because you couldn't find the complete generatrix of the graph of the derivative previously inserted in text posted above . Ah ! No, I didn't understand what you meant because I couldn't see its relevance to the issue under discussion.
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You originally plotted a function and its first & third derivatives, Valery said you couldn't do that, Werner said you could. It's got nothing to do with not knowing what the constant of integration is and hence not knowing what the exact parabola is (over the stated x-axis limits). Stuart
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jmgiraud
On 11/7/2007 4:58:59 AM, cyxturbo wrote: >I think you should ignore Val on this, >maybe he got a couple of bad days - but >nobody here has to share any credentials >to post! Thats old KGB mentality ____________________ However, Valery is totally right , just a matter of catching the hint. Quite a few collab (myself included) have got advices from 8701 visits and how many goodies, tricks, tips, Valery had generously given to this community. "got a couple of bad days" ? No, nobody can substitute to himself. This collab started 30 aug 1999. Check Val activity and contribution ! jmG
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Valery Ochkov
On 11/7/2007 8:32:28 AM, jmG wrote: >However, Valery is totally right , just >a matter of catching the hint. Quite a >few collab (myself included) have got >advices from 8701 visits and how many >goodies, tricks, tips, Valery had >generously given to this community. > >"got a couple of bad days" ? >No, nobody can substitute to himself. > >This collab started 30 aug 1999. >Check Val activity and contribution! > >jmG >
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Bolshoe spasibo, thanks, Jean! We can see ordinary, normal tricks and tips in books and help. But we hope to see fresh ideas, tricks and tips, discuss its here! Val http://twt.mpei.ac.ru/ochkov/v_ochkov.htm
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WERNER CYRMON
On 11/7/2007 3:57:32 AM, Tom_Gutman wrote: >>>Programs in what field?<< > >I worked for commercial >companies. No particular >field, whatever the company >needed at the time. But all >my programs remain the >property of the companies, >either for their internal use, >or as part of a product being >sold. > > Tom Gutman I think you should ignore Val on this, maybe he got a couple of bad days - but nobody here has to share any credentials to post! Thats old KGB mentality And again @val: First (and for all) I am a mathematician (than a physicist, teacher, a network administrator, author ...) and in none of the books I have read (end there are a lot) and on no conference I attended ... there is/was ever a problem, plotting (dimensionless) functions and their derivatives in one plot. Even in physics its used often, all you have to do is, mention the diff. units in the label,text, on the second y-Axis or somewhere else. So I think u are here alone on a fight against the "windmills of sancho pansa" *g* W.
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Valery Ochkov
On 11/7/2007 4:58:59 AM, cyxturbo wrote: >I think you should ignore Val on this, >maybe he got a couple of bad days - but >nobody here has to share any credentials >to post! Thats old KGB mentality No comments! Val http://twt.mpei.ac.ru/ochkov/v_ochkov.htm
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Derivative
Yes, I plot derivative on the same graph as the function (as Mthsoft does and more do...) and if jmgiraud
the case requires like recently in one of the most difficult fitting ever done in this collab, I DO CALIBRATE the derivative . That is quite alright whereas I never use units in any of my work, I dimension the intrants and qualify the result in the appropriate "UnitResult" . The entire debate is around the reminder that derivative on same graph as the function can only be informative but not valued because it does not bear the same unit. In fact and from reverse engineering the debate, the derivative on the same graph as the function behaves like a "twistable Cartesian axis", it behaves like an "Abaque double entrure". Any curricular in Engineering has pure and applied maths for my "twistable Cartesian axis" Anamorphose, Transformations conformes (...), Abaques (...) jmG
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>>Programs in what field?<< Tom Gutman

I worked for commercial companies. No particular field, whatever the company needed at the time. But all my programs remain the property of the companies, either for their internal use, or as part of a product being sold. Tom Gutman
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! Valery Ochkov
, Not but If you see errors in my English - correct, tell me please too. This forum is for me English lessons too! I like tease, provoke somebody (with this plot for example) and read English answer! Val http://twt.mpei.ac.ru/ochkov/v_ochkov.htm
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>I like tease, provoke somebody (with this plot for example) and read English answer!< _______________ So, you did well pushing your luck by pulling someone's leg. jmG
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On 11/8/2007 9:58:40 AM, jmG wrote: WERNER CYRMON

>>I like tease, provoke somebody (with this plot for example) and read English answer! < >_______________ > >So, you did well pushing your >luck by pulling someone's leg. > >jmG Not mine BTW, because my question was a completly different one ... ;-) Val complained the first time about jmGs pic way up in the thread An @Val again: my english is not much better - so no prob there Werner
Compromise
Valery Ochkov
On 11/8/2007 9:58:40 AM, jmG wrote: >>I like tease, provoke somebody (with this plot for example) and read English answer!< >_______________ > >So, you did well pushing your >luck by pulling someone's leg. > >jmG Sori, it iz tu difficalt for mai Inglish uneducated Val http://twt.mpei.ac.ru/ochkov/v_ochkov.htm
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Respuesta ms reciente: 10/11/2007 12:00 AM por WERNER CYRMON

31/10/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a jmgiraud)

Thanks to all Werner

31/10/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a WERNER CYRMON)

31/10/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a WERNER CYRMON)

PTC Community: Derivative

01/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a jmgiraud)

31/10/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a WERNER CYRMON)

08/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a Valery Ochkov)

PTC Community: Derivative

31/10/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a WERNER CYRMON)

kludge, but it works. Richard

01/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a StuartBruff)

Derivative - one plot with function and derivative

01/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a Valery Ochkov)

Derivative - one plot with function and derivative

01/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a Valery Ochkov)

Derivative - one plot with function and derivative

PTC Community: Derivative

01/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a WERNER CYRMON)

On 11/1/2007 9:57:55 AM, cyxturbo wrote: jmgiraud

There is quite a lot under the hood of the "Curvator" !

01/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a jmgiraud)

PTC Community: Derivative

01/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a StuartBruff)

01/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a jmgiraud)

On 11/1/2007 7:49:30 AM, jmG wrote: WERNER CYRMON

PTC Community: Derivative

01/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a jmgiraud)

Derivative - one plot with function and derivative

01/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a WERNER CYRMON)

Derivative - one plot with function and derivative

PTC Community: Derivative

01/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a WERNER CYRMON)

01/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a Valery Ochkov)

01/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a WERNER CYRMON)

PTC Community: Derivative

01/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a WERNER CYRMON)

01/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a Valery Ochkov)

02/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a Tom Gutman)

PTC Community: Derivative

02/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a Valery Ochkov)

>>Sorry, but it is not correct<< Tom Gutman

02/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a Tom Gutman)

PTC Community: Derivative

02/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a Valery Ochkov)

On 11/2/2007 1:53:42 AM, VFO wrote: Richard Jackson

07/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a Richard Jackson)

PTC Community: Derivative

08/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a jmgiraud)

Compromise f and f' Plot: Valery Ochkov

08/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a Valery Ochkov)

PTC Community: Derivative

01/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a Valery Ochkov)

01/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a Valery Ochkov)

01/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a Valery Ochkov)

PTC Community: Derivative

02/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a Valery Ochkov)

>>rad+sr=error in Mathcad 11 Tom Gutman

03/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a Tom Gutman)

PTC Community: Derivative

02/11/2007 12:00 AM (en respuesta a Valery Ochkov)