00:00:0.0,00:00:01.48 The contents of this video are copyrighted 00:00:1.5,00:00:02.

98 You have permission to copy and distribute the contents on condition that they a re not altered in any way, 00:00:3.0,00:00:04.98 no parts are removed, and no parts are added 00:00:5.0,00:00:14.73 Please mirror this video! 00:00:14.749,00:00:20.33 I am currently on a plane flying from the UK to Munich in Germany 00:00:20.349,00:00:24.46 where I am scheduled to interview this man 00:00:24.480,00:00:33.68 I find it very interesting that this sort of information is in the ancient scrip tures of the holy Quran 00:00:33.70,00:00:38.89 and I have no way of knowing where they would come from 00:00:38.91,00:00:42.48 but I think it is extremely interesting that they are there 00:00:42.5,00:00:49.48 and that this work is going on to discover the meanings of some of the passages 00:00:49.5,00:00:58.23 Now allegedly at some point he was asked "What do you think is the origin of the text in the Quran?" 00:00:58.25,00:01:02.29 To which he is supposed to have replied... 00:01:02.310,00:01:06.18 Well I would think it must be the devine being 00:01:06.20,00:01:10.73 Now this is going to be interesting! 00:01:15.75,00:01:16.98 In the 1970's and 1980's a number of scientists / academics were presented with verses 00:01:17.0,00:01:18.98 from the Quran and Hadiths (stories about Muhammad's life) and asked to comment on them 00:01:19.0,00:01:20.98 Some comments were then taken out of context and prsented to the world as if the se people felt 00:01:21.0,00:01:22.98 there was good reason to believe that the Quran was of divine origin

00:01:23.0,00:01:25.98 Thesewere compild into a video called "This is the truth." Various clips from th is video are available on YouTube and also multiple pro-Islamic websites 00:01:26.0,00:01:29.85 This is the truth uncut - William W. Hay 00:01:29.870,00:01:31.98 Right, the first thing I would like you to do if you wouldn't mind 00:01:32.0,00:01:36.69 Would be to tell the people watching what your name is please 00:01:36.710,00:01:38.52 William W Hay 00:01:38.540,00:01:42.03 Now, are you the William W Hay 00:01:42.050,00:01:48.02 who appeared in the video I am about to show you now? 00:01:48.040,00:01:58.33 Yes, that's me, and that was in Islamabad in 1984 I believe 00:01:58.350,00:01:59.85 Let's see... 00:01:59.869,00:02:03.48 Well that was the answer to my next question "When and where was this video?" 00:02:03.5,00:02:04.98 [Both laugh] 00:02:05.0,00:02:06.98 So we are saving on time! 00:02:07.0,00:02:08.98 [Both laugh] 00:02:09.0,00:02:15.48 Right then, can you tell me...what were you told was the purpose of this event? 00:02:15.5,00:02:18.23 Well, there were two events 00:02:18.25,00:02:25.95 I met with Sheik Zindani in Jedda in, I believe it was 1983 00:02:25.969,00:02:27.10 and uh... 00:02:27.120,00:02:28.86 that was uh... 00:02:28.879,00:02:34.52 and invitation that had been extended because 00:02:34.539,00:02:38.84 we have heard that the Saudis were try to

00:02:38.859,00:02:42.12 do things that would make it easier for scientists to 00:02:42.139,00:02:45.86 pursue their research in the Arab countries 00:02:45.879,00:02:50.44 without interference from the Mullahs 00:02:50.459,00:02:54.98 I was approached by the geological society of America 00:02:55.0,00:03:02.38 To see whether I might be willing to participate in this and I guess I was the f irst American to be chosen 00:03:02.4,00:03:05.18 to go to Saudi Arabia 00:03:05.199,00:03:12.47 So I was a little concerned about what this was about because I don't know much about religion 00:03:12.489,00:03:23.19 and my specialties are in geology, and marine geology, and paleo oceanography, a nd paleo climate 00:03:23.209,00:03:25.34 and... 00:03:25.359,00:03:32.91 but I was visited by two gentlemen, a Mr Ahmad and a Mr Monsur, 00:03:32.929,00:03:38.46 who talked to me about visiting sheik Zindani 00:03:38.479,00:03:44.01 and I agreed to do it. I had understood that this was a program that was going 00:03:44.030,00:03:50.48 to help to make it easier for scientists in the Muslim world to do their work 00:03:50.5,00:03:53.35 Right, okay... 00:03:53.370,00:03:59.46 Can you describe what happened upon your arrival? The first event was Jedda did you say? 00:03:59.479,00:04:00.98 That's right! 00:04:01.0,00:04:02.98 So could you describe when you arrived at Jeddah? 00:04:03.0,00:04:07.79 Well I arrived at Jedda and was taken to a hotel, The Meridian, and 00:04:07.809,00:04:13.32

then for about four days each day I would visit sheik Zindani 00:04:13.339,00:04:18.60 and we would have a discussion about different topics that he was interested in 00:04:18.619,00:04:25.41 A very pleasant man to talk to and so on 00:04:25.430,00:04:29.70 and he felt that there were certain passages in the Quran that were 00:04:29.719,00:04:33.39 not readily explained except in terms of modern science 00:04:33.410,00:04:39.87 So I was curious to learn about those and we had good conversations 00:04:39.889,00:04:50.02 Toward the end we settled on one topic that they wanted to talk about which was about 00:04:50.039,00:04:51.78 internal waves in the ocean 00:04:51.800,00:04:55.44 well this is a pretty esoteric topic 00:04:55.460,00:05:00.45 and I was really curious as to how they could be anything in the Quran about it 00:05:00.470,00:05:02.34 but actually... 00:05:02.360,00:05:05.06 there is knowledge of these that goes back a long long way 00:05:05.080,00:05:09.98 The Vikings knew about them, and so on 00:05:10.0,00:05:12.69 I was asking whether 00:05:12.710,00:05:19.33 Muhammad had ever been to sea or had been talking to sailors and I was assured t hat he had never even seen the sea! 00:05:19.349,00:05:21.26 And never talked to sailors! 00:05:21.280,00:05:23.31 And he was illiterate! 00:05:23.330,00:05:27.40 And would not have had any knowledge about these sorts of things! 00:05:27.419,00:05:30.46 So I said 00:05:30.479,00:05:40.67 "Well, you know, if there were no possibility that he had heard any of this, or

this, or this, or this..." 00:05:40.69,00:05:48.98 Then I made the statement "Well then you could say it was information from a div ine being... 00:05:49.0,00:05:52.17 ...but that would require a lot of proof!" 00:05:52.190,00:05:56.98 You know, you'd have to be sure that none of these other things had happened 00:05:57.0,00:06:02.01 and there didn't seem to be any evidence that one could exclude them from having happened 00:06:02.030,00:06:04.59 So when you were saying... 00:06:04.61,00:06:09.12 [Changes question] I noticed the thing with the interview that's being distribut ed 00:06:09.139,00:06:14.97 you're saying that the information in the text presented to you was quite intere sting 00:06:14.989,00:06:19.32 and that it's good that they are trying to work out the origins of this text 00:06:19.339,00:06:28.29 and then the the video cuts immediately to a new scene where you say "It must be from the divine being" 00:06:28.310,00:06:39.98 Now, the accounts that I've got, there's one here which is a Quran which has got claims for scientific miracles in 00:06:40.0,00:06:44.24 and you're listed in the back 00:06:44.259,00:06:47.96 and it says, for that part... 00:06:47.979,00:06:55.48 "And when he was asked about the source of the Quran he replied...well I would t hink it must be the divine being" 00:06:55.5,00:06:58.60 So are you saying that that is a misrepresentation? 00:06:58.620,00:07:02.89 That's a misrepresentations, there's no question about that! 00:07:02.909,00:07:08.47 Now that was, I think those quotes or the video is from 00:07:08.490,00:07:13.05 the meeting in Islamabad which was a year later which was a larger conference

00:07:13.070,00:07:19.63 At the meeting in Jedda we had a final session that was filmed out on a boat 00:07:19.650,00:07:33.41 and again the sheik went through his list of things and I explained all the thin gs that I thought might not be true 00:07:33.429,00:07:37.58 things that Muhammad might have known and so on and so forth, and he said 00:07:37.599,00:07:42.98 "But if we exclude all of those, all of those, then what is the conclusion?" 00:07:43.0,00:07:49.96 Well then I said "Well, THEN you could conclude it could have come from a divine being" 00:07:49.979,00:07:54.38 what came after isn't of course recorded (shown) and that is my... 00:07:54.399,00:07:57.98 probably I think I made a statement "But I don't think that's what happened!" 00:07:58.0,00:08:00.19 [Both laugh] 00:08:00.209,00:08:04.44 So effectively what he'd done was to say "Look at this information" 00:08:04.459,00:08:10.59 You'd presented lots of various ways that he (Muhammad) could have known it thro ugh purely natural means 00:08:10.609,00:08:15.94 And he said "Well what if he never did this, what if this isn't true, what if th is isn't true?" 00:08:15.960,00:08:18.28 painted a purely hypothetical situation 00:08:18.3,00:08:24.19 and you said "Well under those conditions it must have been from the divine bein g, but I don't think so" 00:08:24.210,00:08:25.11 That's right! 00:08:25.120,00:08:31.03 and then the middle was cut out, and then of course the fake question was presen ted 00:08:31.050,00:08:38.35 Yeah, and I realised this had gone on for about four days, preparing me for this 00:08:38.369,00:08:43.52 to get to the point where I would finally say those words that he wanted to hear 00:08:43.539,00:08:47.06 So he was a very clever person!

00:08:47.080,00:08:51.20 Let's see...so that was the follow up visit to Islamabad 00:08:51.220,00:08:56.16 You said to me earlier before we started recording, that took place on a boat? 00:08:56.180,00:08:57.68 This was in Jedda 00:08:57.7,00:08:58.68 Jedda was the boat? 00:08:58.7,00:09:00.45 Yeah! 00:09:00.470,00:09:07.53 Now the conference in Islamabad, I think the video is from the conference in Isl amabad 00:09:07.550,00:09:09.78 There there were a number of people present 00:09:09.799,00:09:13.48 It was a meeting with several hundred people present 00:09:13.500,00:09:18.39 conducted in the parliament building of Pakistan 00:09:18.410,00:09:26.16 and at one point we had a panel discussion and that's what the video is from 00:09:26.179,00:09:36.34 and what I emphasized there was that it's interesting that these things might be in a religious text but I didn't know why they would be there 00:09:36.360,00:09:40.48 and the biggest problem with them is interpretation 00:09:40.50,00:09:45.98 because I think the sheik was reading into them all sorts of modern interpretati ons 00:09:46.000,00:09:49.49 which weren't necessarily (the) original (meaning) 00:09:49.510,00:09:56.98 And perhaps I should say that I think the problem is in this whole area 00:09:57.0,00:10:03.34 is that the meanings of the words, while the words themselves are preserved in s cript, 00:10:03.360,00:10:10.50 the meanings of the words may not be the same today as they were in the year 700 00:10:10.520,00:10:14.98 That happens in all of the languages, I don't know why Arabic would be any diffe rent 00:10:15.00,00:10:18.10

that meanings of words don't change with time 00:10:18.120,00:10:22.42 So I think that's probably the biggest problem in the whole thing 00:10:22.440,00:10:24.12 is that the words don't mean... 00:10:24.140,00:10:26.82 [Hay rephrases] The way the Sheik is "interpreting" the words, 00:10:26.840,00:10:29.98 which seems to be his "unique" way of interpreting the words, 00:10:30.0,00:10:34.13 is not the same as what the original words meant! 00:10:34.149,00:10:39.22 Of course there are various exegeses on the Quran from different centuries 00:10:39.240,00:10:48.48 where these miracles...we've not had these miracles described to us in advance o f the scientific discovery 00:10:48.5,00:10:51.48 but then when the scientific discovery is made people look back and say 00:10:51.499,00:10:55.68 "Ooh, look what the Quran clearly said all along!" 00:10:55.7,00:10:56.92 Yeah! 00:10:56.940,00:11:03.38 Most of them are things that I would think that if God wanted to make a great re velation 00:11:03.40,00:11:06.98 these are not the things I would have expected him to reveal! 00:11:07.0,00:11:09.47 Because they are all readily observed! 00:11:09.490,00:11:16.47 What specifically was...was there one specific miracle claim that Zindani wanted you to look at? 00:11:16.490,00:11:20.76 This was about internal waves in the ocean 00:11:20.780,00:11:26.05 and he interpreted it with a very modern interpretation I think 00:11:26.070,00:11:28.83 You know when I look at the English translation 00:11:28.850,00:11:35.66 what may have been intended was to talk about what we call "glitter" 00:11:35.680,00:11:40.98

which is the light that you see on the sea floor that's formed by waves 00:11:41.0,00:11:44.98 and then they focus the light in a different way and what you see on the sea flo or 00:11:45.0,00:11:48.47 looks like something very different from what you see on the surface 00:11:48.490,00:11:54.22 That'd be an alternative interpretation of what the words might mean 00:11:54.240,00:11:59.70 But I would think that anybody who had been to sea 00:11:59.720,00:12:04.71 and the Arabs had an enormous thousand year history of seamanship 00:12:04.730,00:12:08.26 would have a lot of knowledge about these sorts of things 00:12:08.279,00:12:13.07 You gave an example to me earlier before started filming about one place 00:12:13.089,00:12:17.52 where two seas are meeting, where people would have fished? 00:12:17.540,00:12:21.84 Oh, yes certainly in the Bosperous, yes and that's where two seas meet 00:12:21.860,00:12:24.46 the Black sea and the sea of Marmara 00:12:24.480,00:12:28.75 The waters flow out from the Black sea 00:12:28.770,00:12:32.99 and below the outflow is an inflow into the Black sea 00:12:33.010,00:12:38.08 and this has been known for ever because when fishing boats go there the fishing boats... 00:12:38.100,00:12:44.90 would normally drift toward the sea of Marmara with the outflowing water 00:12:44.919,00:12:47.77 but when they lower their nets to the bottom 00:12:47.790,00:12:52.74 the fishing boats are dragged backwards in the other direction toward the Black sea 00:12:52.760,00:12:59.48 So I think everybody for a long time has realised that there are two sets of wat ers there 00:12:59.5,00:13:03.32 one flowing out and one flowing in and going in the opposite direction

00:13:03.340,00:13:10.81 Any fisherman would have certainly known that 00:13:10.830,00:13:18.18 If they'd been fishing for a very long time, which they clearly had, then this c ould easily be available knowledge to someone couldn't it? 00:13:18.199,00:13:22.58 Oh, it would have been common knowledge to those people and I think it would hav e gone to others (also) 00:13:22.600,00:13:29.95 There's also a possibility, I don't know about the details, but fishermen in the streets of Bab el Mandeb 00:13:29.970,00:13:32.80 probably experienced the same thing! 00:13:32.820,00:13:38.90 There is an inflow at the surface into the Red sea and an outflow at depth 00:13:38.920,00:13:43.30 So there would have been the same sort of thing very close to Jedda 00:13:43.319,00:13:52.03 that would have been noticable, I think, to any fisherman that used nets to get to the bottom 00:13:52.050,00:13:55.29 In light of your previous questions 00:13:55.310,00:13:58.45 I'll ask the next questions somewhat in jest 00:13:58.470,00:13:59.98 Did you become a Muslim? 00:14:00.0,00:14:00.47 No! 00:14:00.49,00:14:03.47 Okay [both laugh] 00:14:03.490,00:14:12.48 The final questions are really just to clear up any accusations which I foresee coming my way 00:14:12.5,00:14:15.32 when I make this video public 00:14:15.340,00:14:17.55 First thing I would like to ask you to is 00:14:17.570,00:14:20.88 Are you being paid by anyone at all to do this video? 00:14:20.9,00:14:21.98 [Chuckles] No, no, no 00:14:22.0,00:14:24.48

In fact you bought my lunch, so thank you very much! 00:14:24.5,00:14:29.15 He bought my lunch, so I'm not paying him! 00:14:29.170,00:14:35.98 Have you been intimidated in anyway to retract your original statement? Not by m e or anyone? 00:14:36.0,00:14:37.04 No! 00:14:37.059,00:14:38.68 Okay, no Freemasons? 00:14:38.7,00:14:39.98 No, no no no 00:14:40.0,00:14:40.98 Zionist Jews? 00:14:41.0,00:14:41.98 No! 00:14:42.0,00:14:43.26 No one? Okay! 00:14:43.280,00:14:51.13 I'd like to ask you, what do you think was the real purpose of this event? 00:14:51.150,00:14:59.39 Well as I say, we thought it was to help make it easier for scientists to operat e in the Muslim world 00:14:59.410,00:15:06.83 but clearly I think in retrospect is to try to recruit people for the Muslim, er Islam 00:15:06.850,00:15:12.82 uh... I hate to say it but under false pretenses and that's a really serious pro blem 00:15:12.840,00:15:20.48 And finally, at some point previously you mentioned an event with your hosts 00:15:20.5,00:15:25.53 I think it was in islamabad, a meal after the show? 00:15:25.550,00:15:28.29 Could you tell me about that? 00:15:28.310,00:15:33.88 Yes, well we had one of the meals after one of the evenings in the conference 00:15:33.900,00:15:37.23 [Corrects himself] One of the afternoons in the conference we have an evening me al 00:15:37.250,00:15:40.48 And I was seated with a table.

00:15:40.5,00:15:52.21 These were all the representatives who were there, except for the westerners, we re religious figures in the Muslim world 00:15:52.229,00:15:55.77 and I was seated with one group, they all seemed to know each other 00:15:55.790,00:15:59.39 and Pete Palmer who was with me he asked the question 00:15:59.410,00:16:01.34 "Why are there no women here?" 00:16:01.360,00:16:03.68 and we were given the interesting answer that 00:16:03.7,00:16:08.98 "Well women can't be here because women don't belong in this religious group... 00:16:09.0,00:16:11.71 ...women have no souls!" 00:16:11.730,00:16:20.65 and uh... we were both rather stunned by that and then I guess in retrospect now we realise that that was a table of Taliban! 00:16:20.670,00:16:23.48 So it was a very very interesting experience 00:16:23.5,00:16:29.68 and I know that's not necessarily a very widely held view in the Muslim world 00:16:29.7,00:16:31.98 especially by women! 00:16:32.0,00:16:34.79 But that was what we were told 00:16:34.810,00:16:37.44 Thank you very much for doing this interview! 00:16:37.46,00:16:37.98 Thank you! 00:16:38.00,00:16:38.98 Thank you Bill! 00:16:39.0,00:16:44.94 I thank you, very much!