The Aesthetics of Witnessing: A Conversation with Alfredo Jaar Author(s): Patricia C.

Phillips and Alfredo Jaar Source: Art Journal, Vol. 64, No. 3 (Fall, 2005), pp. 6-27 Published by: College Art Association Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/20068397 Accessed: 28/08/2010 02:41
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Alfredo 33-min. Jaar)

2005, Jaar, stills from Muxima, sound film (artwork ? Alfredo

Patricia
back

C. Phillips: Alfredo, as Iwas walking

conversations studio Street. we have had Street at your Twenty-sixth Jaar: Patti, on Warren

to your studio today I thought

the years. We are continued enjoyed here many in your that

to the many

over

conversations studio on

Alfredo

actually

you were

the first

person

Imet

when

I came

to

We were both working New York in 1982. Patricia C. Phillips

on Spring Street. To meet you and so early was occurrence I feel very

for SITE
an lucky

extraordinary

Features
recent
in hor circum

The Aesthetics

of

that this happened. Phillips: Iwould

on Angola. are

like to begin by talking about your most

What so many prompted incredible What you to choose events, to work developments, the

Witnessing: with A Conversation

project Angola? rors,

There and

challenges

in the world.

is it about

Alfredo

Jaar
centrated

stances in Angola
Jaar: that effort I am continent and energy

that you find compelling?

attracted me to Africa. deeply. what There that is something devote there and about con to

irresistibly

that moves in order

I feel is

Imust

to expose

happening

trigger some kind of reaction and solidarity. Since I finished my project on

Rwanda that took six years ( 1994-2000), I have wanted to go back to Africa.

The reason I decided

and music. the most African An ence. Verde. This not necessarily I find African

to go to Angola
because music music accessing of my from sound of a

is based on my collection
event. As you know, creative created and moving. today, and in spite

of African music
I collect African of that it is some

particular

incredibly being

I think of

extraordinary musicians important includes have focus music

the difficulties

materials collection Angola,

instruments. music of Portuguese and combine music, About influ Cape this the four

is African Mozambique, music. call

Guinea-Bissau, When you African same that

I like

the nostalgic sound, which touching Iwas

of Portuguese

melancholic result years versions

the Portuguese and sad, my but

saudade, with at the I realized to these

is extremely ago when of

beautiful

time. I had

organizing

collection, As I listened

six different versions,

a song

called

"Muxima."

different

I realized they were

to them, I could

recorded at different
visualize land mines, the the AIDS, same

times in Angolan history. Listening

recent and I history so on. thought of Angola: I could that to create hear it could a film colonialism, all of be these an inter

practically civil war,

independence, events esting

in the music?through device to use this music

song.

as a structural

element

about

Angola. The discovery of this song inmy collection Phillips:

Rwanda open the

triggered the idea of this film. lectures based on your

at SUNY New Paltz figured time structure that to

I remember hearing you give several different

project. 2001 In fact, conference in that moving been so central I vividly recall a lecture you gave Sites of Conflict: Art and memorable to your work, in a Culture lecture. providing

ofViolence. Music But is this a concept

prominently music for a has piece? I have

the first and

both

Alfredo Jaar's The conversation took place in New York studio on Tuesday, May 3, 2005.

Jaar:

used

music

in a couple

of works

and

in a

performance,

but

it never

before had the kind of protagonism

it does in this project. I've been interested in

7 art journal

Alfredo

Finnish Passports, Jaar, One Million 1995, one million facsimiles, passport high of view, Museum security glass, installation Art, Helsinki Contemporary (artwork ? Alfredo Jaar) In a room-sized space, Jaar stacked repli cas of actual passports.The enormous, minimal accumulation the represented one million whom Finland immigrants would host if the country had the same of its European immigration policy as most neighbors (approximately its population). 20 percent of

music covered

since the

Iwas healing

very

young.

I even of music

dreamed after my that I saw, for other subject is

of being trip

a musician. As

But you

I first know,

dis the

powers

to Rwanda.

1994 genocide It took me this crisis healing years

in Rwanda to recover And of

was from

tragedy what

impossible was my

to describe a significant

adequately. part of a

and music reasons, that I have

process.

then when, images?a

work

confronted in different images,

regarding

the use

explored of

projects?I ment

thought

that perhaps the work. This

I could is how

use music, the idea for

instead the film

as an ele shape.

to structure

began

to take

Phillips: Do you feel thatmusic with which you have developed

Jaar: thing structure the meaning niable way. Absolutely. is on of the I think table. You that music recognize

ismore honest and dependable a very skeptical relationship?

is honest. the When you the if you do listen tempo, not

than images,

to music, the fully

every the

instruments, Even

rhythm; understand and unde

a musical of the

piece lyrics,

is transparent. music communicates

in a very

compelling

Phillips:
not. a

I often think thatmusic

people there and

is embodied
direct and listen and

in away
vivid

that images generally are

between music,

For many

is a very individual Iwould

connection memory. song all of my

particular

moment, Iwas year

collective to a

Jaar: When an entire "Muxima" Muxima, we

young,

particular that obsessed!

the

time

for to titled song

or more. me the song

I can't ofthat seven,

believe kind

Iwas

And

attraction is also that the

reminds hear

of obsession. actually

In the film, ten times. I

which hope

eight?

will be unforgettable for the audience?and will remind them later of the feel ings and images evoked by the film. There are so many special things happening
with music. I haven't theorized very much about this, but I intend to explore it further.

Phillips: Could you talk about your process with

ally about your methodology? there It was to look, a form of Your travel, trip to Angola people, This that you went ject you, Jaar: tory about enal in mind. is it not? I as with of my and interest the AIDS and Angola research. and crisis. diamond with my In this talk with

this film, but also more

was self-initiated. but without generally a

gener

I understand specific step pro for

reconnaissance.

is the first

begin part

reading larger and

case,

I had

followed history. of going

Angola's I knew the phenom there, to conceive

his

understanding Iwas also trades. own

of African perfectly But eyes it was that I

the civil war developments people,

aware by

in the oil and seeing

talk

ing with

began

of the possibility of a short film. On the first trip I didn't film at all. I did, how ever, photograph places that I thought might be locations for a film. And then
I started wanted nicate It has There lions working to make that not are this on very fantastic down not many annually, a possible script. points. from Although For oil example, has not and it was very flexible and open, commu expect. Angolans. to bil I precise wealth to Iwanted had social to somehow we might

the effect services which

trickled sadly

improve

health signs of

for most amounts

visible when

this oil wealth, of

of dollars

you

visit most

the country.

FALL 2005

Phillips: tions

There of poverty

are

two

disparate Angolans

economies: endure. these

the economy

of oil

and

the condi

that most the film tries

Jaar:

Yes,

and

to connect

economies

in every

frame.

Phillips: I know that, in addition tomusic, film has been a sustained influence for you. But I think this is the first time that you have made a film. Could you
talk about your process, how you developed a concept and structure.

Jaar: I didn't want

images of Africa we

to give the spectator the kind of insulting stereotypical

normally receive from the media, of course, and Iwanted

to show Angola in a unique and different light. I also imposed on myself certain directives that I called dogma. It is loosely based on Dogma 95, by Lars von Trier.'
No actors, no special effects, no lighting, no special sounds, etc. ... Iwanted to

show as little as possible while

hours and was with two and reduced thinking or of it to the poetry

expressing
minutes. of Giuseppe

asmuch
Iwanted Ungaretti,

as I could. We filmed
to do who a short expresses possible visual

twenty
poem

thirty-three

so much to achieve

three words

in a poem.

Iwondered

if this was

with

a film.
Structurally, I divided the film into ten cantos. Iwas thinking of Canto General,

the epic poem by Pablo Neruda

I also in order you know, thought to of keep a haiku Ezra Pound's it to a minimum, is a very short each

that is divided
Cantos. Each canto I used Japanese focuses would five,

into hundreds of shorter poems.

in the film is a visual of poem a haiku. certain and one I hoped equals and, As structure

the additional poem on composed one produce or more. or

following two not This issues, one plus

specific that two,

rules.

In the film, of one one

canto another equals

the clash but rather

issue with plus one

three,

is what

a haiku

does?this

is the power of poetry. I tried to do thiswith

the language of film.

Phillips: Do you plan to return to Angola?

filming issues, while or you were there, raised but after doing need perspectives that you

I know that you did a great deal of

this film to revisit or are there new questions, reexamine?

Jaar: The film had its U.S. premiere

insecure about the public reaction.

inMay 2005, and I am still nervous and

It opened at Grand Arts in Kansas City. I really

hope the film will be able to establish a dialogue with

reaction expand will suggest to me what to do next. of There the film, increase the number cantos,

its audience. Perhaps this

possibilities. a more complex I might fea

are many and make

ture-length film. Or perhaps Imight

yet. I have to see if what I have tried

do another kind of film. I really don't know

to accomplish is working. Who knows, per

haps the film is totally unreadable!

As obsessed you with know, I have relied on Iwant text a great deal in my work because very I am specific Because to communicate

clarity.

something

with

each piece, I've used a lot of text in one fashion or another.When I first designed the film, Iwas going to use text at the beginning of the film to intro
duce the audience So Iwrote to Angola and give a panoramic essay. view of the country's a long time, prob finally lems. a very I analyzed it for

I.The Dogma 95 manifesto, written by the Danish directors Lars von Trier and Thomas Vinterberg, promulgates a set of rules with the aim of establishing an anti-illusionist cinema. To read the manifesto and related texts, see martweiss.com/film/dogma95.shtml.

comprehensive

asking myself a film?

the question:

if this essay is so complete, why do I need tomake

Phillips: And if the film communicates, why would

you need the essay?

10 FALL 2005

Jaar: sounds. because

Ultimately, I decided Iwanted

I decided that the a

to let the text was

film

communicate I used

solely the form

through

images

and

unnecessary.

of multiple

cantos

fragmented I could

structure make

that suggests ten films would on

the difficulties Angola, but that since this

in capturing I cannot prac view?

the complexity tically and do that this, there

of Angola. I thought

that the fragments more.

suggest

is a partial

is much

But I really struggled with the decision of leaving the text out. I even thought of another idea: with the introduction of each canto, Iwould include a brief text. For example, the title for Canto Six would have been something like:
"Canto Six, or how to deactivate a land mine, one of 18million." Iwas desperate

to include this kind of information. But I managed

there is no text whatsoever. I am eager to know how

to control myself! As you saw,

people will respond here.

The film was shown in Windhoek,

to achieve a totally African

Namibia. We edited the film there, as Iwanted

Audience members understood every

production.

thing?it was fantastic! But the knowledge of Angola in Namibia is of course radically different from what an audience here might know about Angola. As
you know, only about 15 percent other of Americans cultures is truly have a passport, and their lack of dramatic.

knowledge

Phillips: You describe

We began with live within to withhold images again, people's a reeling

this interesting moment

and riotous the great but visual image

or threshold in your thinking.

Strategically, work. think carefully that you seek work Now at one you are work what in a new open, I believe, point working attempts people place perhaps is in you

culture. in your I don't very to me currently of your

or withdraw but with responses, about

restraint. you think

that your about are

to control might your less

understand relationship controlled

the work. Do

It seems you

to an audience. experience in Muxima? or

a more that,

investigation

demonstrated

Jaar: This may have to do with using film. As you know, I studied film while studying architecture in Chile.When Imoved to New York I could do neither
film nor architecture, so I ended up doing art that, in many ways, was a combi

nation of both. But during all these years I have thought of myself as a frustrated filmmaker who just never found themeans and opportunity towork in film. The extraordinary privilege of the filmmaker is that she or he has an audience in a
very pared particular to spend state of mind. In a movie the film, sits theater, a spectator chair, arrives and mentally there pre is one time with in a comfortable

focal point of attention that attracts all the senses. The kind of attention
commands have is extraordinary, with Iwas able and I have always envied this power to communicate This people are is why an audience. to be more free than ever and before. to watch To view the

that film

that filmmakers

Muxima, entire thirty

encouraged

to enter

at the beginning

three-minute film. There is a schedule and the film will not be looped. As much
as possible, Iwould like to create a real cinematographic experience. Working

within
give watch up

the film language and context for the first time, I thought that I could
the and text listen and other elements under gallery because ideal context. people have the opportunity that in museums is to alarming and gal to the film or conditions?something I observe people

ly absent

in a museum

leries all the time, and I am shocked at the speed atwhich

they walk by awork

11 art journal

Alfredo 1986, installation Jaar, Rushes, sub views of public project, Spring Street way station, New York (artwork ?Alfredo Jaar)

of

art.

It is

appalling! people

It is very to take

frustrating. time,

This

is

why

I have I can't so

created force people

installations to see, can within

that encourage but I can provide them

to stop,

to read. down

conditions dialogue. installations. of

for people I have been

to slow desperate

that down

the work people

engage

in a of my

to slow

the context

Phillips: for has and a

In so many of navigation.

your

installations is expectation, quality that and areas has people to been have

you

use

architecture and delay. and

as an Much filmlike. role

instrument of the work There Often create "drive are

There

surprise, is very plays

sequential, spatial from

progressive

cinematic a dramatic illuminated

determined people a sense by" Jaar: viewing Phillips: first move

configurations, "twilight" This so many attention I do not

light

as well. that the

shockingly your of

spaces

of disorientation. that because

strategy art.

for overcoming

experience Yes, and

without have

distraction about this more this

is part

of

a normal film When of these

film project. we

experience, And perhaps

to think is part we of

in this new

the music project,

open

process. versions

discussed

the Angola times or

listened

to several history. were

"Muxima" versions capacity did to

recorded not convey

at different a concise historical

in the country's history, they

Although evocative

factual

in their

communicate

conditions.

I am pleased that you brought up your background

and the ways that years. choices a Vietnam border, these I'd like about theories and fields other have aspects and influenced of visit, in your to discuss places

in architecture and film

your work. work You in the past have made

twenty-five significant gold United research instead mine, States

to research detention

whether Kong,

it is a Brazilian the Mexican There you choose is significant these sites

refugee or the these of

center dumping

Hong in

site of projects, or

toxic

Nigeria. did

that precedes of other places

but why disruption

or how

crisis

in the world? there was interested of no Internet. This made and how life dif This could to

Jaar: When more ferent

I started

to work I have

as an artist been very

complicated. news stories with

always

in the news to us my from

communicate the mechanism reading Iwas

the reality of news

the world to me from

as citizens. father, him who how

fascination not start his

came

day without a newspaper.

the newspaper. always fascinated discover about day on a same in the how

I learned by

critically agendas differences

read

the different the subtle

ideological obvious

of newspapers between father, five

and magazines?to different Iwould reports begin my

or more

event. studio reading I could of which publication. two, afford where three, that day. only

Like my sometimes Prior available to the

newspapers, we had States

depending to a buy or

many some their

Internet,

the papers, two after

in the United

day

Phillips: And you read in three languages.

Jaar: ferent Yes. Iwould The encounter access stories, to or news images the same stories was that would also very were attract limited. published my interest were different for dif few images news

reasons.

There by

illustrating

news

images

papers, often to support distinctly different ideological positions. I found this really fascinating. This was parallel tomy discovery of New York, which I found

12 FALL 200?

incredibly exciting but incredibly insular. As I got to know the artworld, Iwas shocked by its provincialism. I decided early inmy career that Iwanted to bring the news of theworld to the artworld. Iwanted to construct bridges to link the almost fictitious When
were crater at this no in the same

reality of the artworld with the realities of the real world. I began reading about the gold mine at Serra Pelada in Brazil, there
No photographer surrounded a had by ever one been hundred Fellowship, there. I just read about this vast Roughly me to rain time, forest thousand and miners. this allowed

images.

I received

Guggenheim

travel to Serra Pelada. This was

about in the newspapers. of witnessing I decided I go here to be rather Once

the first time I decided

I got something there, I realized rather as often there? Each than

to go see a place I had read

there was reading nothing about equal to this it. From

the experience moment Why tion. After pers, munity, and on, did weeks

a witness than reading disinterest to Rwanda.

as I could. case would outrageous neglect just of need reports the close examina

of killings, a I had general to go

the most and

in the newspa com

observing I felt that

international of witnessing,

It is not

a matter

but it is about being present and sharing with other people who have left their homes and families to be there. It is about being part of a developing network of
support happened and assistance. You simply react as a human being. This is how Rwanda for me.

I don't know if I have heard you talk so vividly about the process of witnessing, but I think it is a central feature of your work. The idea of bearing witness invokes a kind of gravity and weight that is vividly palpable. Phillips:
Jaar: artwork. to come my this work lived It pushes you as an artist. There The of is no way challenge representation. to translate what I see and is why into an me

It is absolutely up with also different

impossible. strategies of I've exercises always reality my

is enormous, This How cannot Because

it forces I describe translate this and of

as a series

in representation. thought that we

do we represent

experience? you create

reality. lived respon

Instead, a specific

a new seen

with own

the work. eyes,

I have a certain

faced level

reality,

it with

it demands

sibility This is not fiction! So I create little realities for the artworld
based because I have human on lived I have been. being. experiences. been I cannot here think These and of there. a better experiences And have changed is what only me. the work it is because

that are
I am

I am who

of where but as a

education?not challenge for me

as an artist,

It is an extraordinary

as an artist

to communicate

these experiences.
a particular medium to a response

I think this iswhy

or format. lived I use experience.

each project looks so different.

different aesthetic strategies based

I don't have
on my

particular

Phillips: Yes, but there is a familial character to the work

restraint responsibly make choices that we with discussed particular earlier, subject and human as well matter, being as an idea of what and to situations, about what

that is connected
it means lived to work

to a

experiences. where

You to

as an artist

investigate,

go, and what

what that press. to make too often

to do when
or are produce. depicted how

you get there. And then there is the difficult choice of

You often go to sites or or of extremity, crisis, and conflict in the the work in a different sensationalized formats you use, manner all of

stereotypical the media

So no matter

14 FALL 2005

reflects overlook different You by

highly this places. talk

calibrated character that

process connects

01

editing work

and over

rehnement. the years

I don inspired by

twant

to

so many

frequently As human

about beings,

responsibility. we seek

What to understand Art is

are

the other what

issues

raised to do ethical our

the work?

it means of

work?and

the consequences

of our work.

always

a process

reflection. What
this keep and is a dilemma your bearings

does itmean
for you?the as you move of the art world?

to do our work ethically, if imperfectly?

fact that all work sites are of fails in some way. and and How between What extremity

I know
do you

the pleasures dissonances

frustrations

the distractions

because of this for you? Actually, letme be simplistic and graphic. I often show
and tion discuss the fact and your work with go students. Every now of and then, a student will ques for based that you return to witness York or the horrors to make money in Rwanda, your work

genocide from selling

instance, on other

to New suffering

people's

trauma.

Jaar: This kind of question

with it when I returned the reception the question from

comes up all of the time. I expected

Rwanda, the project is: are we so Iwrote very my own personal so to create of was allowed positive,

to be confronted
manifesto. had of to suffer I never

Interestingly, use it. In a way,

as artists

art out

ing? Or should we
invisibility rage, my only own

let these tragedies sink into invisibility? Why

and offer my this but for have own tragic is also reading, situation? a modest my To way own create about the map

can't I resist their

my own out is not

in the media accusations on

image,

these works solidarity, Now, to Rwanda

to put

Rwanda

to express in Rwanda.

to create, many you

as I did, of

a memorial solidarity

the victims you seen?

of genocide How many

how have

gestures seen? Why This

memorials What

is a memorial an exhibition tree cost? time in

for one million about Rwanda

people. cost

is this worth? than, much say, an exhi does a film

should about "the

less money How little can't seen

bition or

eighteenth-century of times to this

painting"? more subject? than my Why have

a rock

concert

Thousand resources of

Rwanda Project. Why I dignify this sub in are

can't

I dedicate

and Tens

ject with dozens of

resources? cities

thousands

of people If only a small

the Rwanda Project of the viewers

around

the world.

percentage

affected, this still is a few thousand people who will

in a different way and perhaps express their solidarity.

look at Rwanda and Africa

How much does this cost?

How much
These this question true that one

is this worth?
are of has just a few I of the possible cite responses Godard. or aesthetics, find condition ethics. Whatever of representation, to this question. He said but that it is no one be Regarding "it may less be true of the

ethics,

always

Jean-Luc ethics

to choose one chooses,

between one of will

that, whichever road. scene make For

always

the other should

at the

end

the very

definition is no way about

the human to escape

in the mise-en decisions also reflect we an

itself."2There about our work,

aesthetic they

our

strategies

ethical position. Accepting

2. Jean-Luc Godard, quoted in Susan Sontag, "Godard," inA Susan Sontag Reader (New York: Vintage, 1982), 235. 3. Philip Gourevitch, We Wish to Inform You That TomorrowWe Will Be Killed with Our Families: Stories from Rwanda (New York: Picador, 1998). able choice in the work

this, I think it is important to confront

the beginning, as part of its structure.

this unavoid

from

Phillips: It is interesting that,with a few exceptions, there is little sustained institutional critique of the media. On the other hand, when Philip Gourevitch
goes to Rwanda and writes about what he saw, there was no ethical challenge.3

15 art journal

Alfredo

1995, archival Jaar, Real Pictures, color photographs, instal boxes, silkscreen, lation view, Centre d'Art Santa Monica, Barcelona (artwork ?Alfredo Jaar)

Is there

something

about

visual

art

that makes

it very

vulnerable

to these

cri

tiques? Does
with other images? people If you that not

this tie inwith our very challenged

Why go take I did are visual to Rwanda the case in Rwanda these I think reputation. kinds that one People I think artists and often challenged, work? he result

and challenging
if not

relationship
when

condemned,

produce

Jaar: money does about have respect a

of Gourevitch, and of the

probably is a book. to his are

spent I am ethical

the

same

amount sure

of

relatively stand is that

that he writing

confront

challenges reason we

regarding artists way artists. do that

Rwanda. good

challenged artists in the

not they

do

not

respect place

same above

intellectuals.

that people

intellectuals

Phillips: Alfredo,
identify Generally, production bling generally Jaar: As that a public art is not

I consider you a public intellectual, but generally when

intellectual, seen is not they as a form understood and material as part helped visuality fundamental, of look of to writers, intellectual as research evidence the scholars, work, and academics. same way I find and in the

people
that art

often

in the university. that artists develop

it trou produce

this physical is not perceived you

intellectual audience

culture. see and understand The today role gives art as of the

a critic

have

the general communicates but I do not

intellectual critic is

work?that absolutely

intellectual think that

ideas. culture

critics

the kind of space and means

of visual of our Susan lectuals, publications. The press work. culture, Sontag, The but Noam daily it does press not

they need to enlighten

creates provide the read a significant for a space late Edward in

the public with

part of the general ideas. We dozens and

their analysis
landscape read the late

critical and

Chomsky, often have we

Said,

of other American their

intel

but more They in this

their work and ongoing

European forums for

Latin

columns does not

to express these and other

opinions.

country

have

respect

intellectuals.

It does not offer the space. It is shocking

this is a key element why artists and critics

thatwe do not find them here. I think

are seen in such a poor light. It is

pathetic. This iswhy

Phillips: always Your been

I feel very privileged

with of your images work. and You

to speak and read a few languages.

strategies think clearly, about representation and has theoretical

relationship at the heart

ethically,

ly about these issues and ideas. Could you talk about Lamentof the Images(2002)? It is a disquieting and complex project architecturally and spatially. And light is a
powerful ing controls agent in the work. culture did this There along are with with concisely selected texts and about absence the the of increas images. of visual you the withholding Real Pictures where They were stored

In some Rwandan

respects,

as well withheld.

images?the boxes, each

photographs?were

in archival

with

a description
in film,

on the lid of the photograph relationship

focus after on architecture, installations,

secreted within.

I am fascinated your
it is did You

by this very complicated

background unsurprising encounter

that you have with

and the perilous How has nature this

images.With
perhaps images. of

photography,

that you would a crisis of images

Rwanda.

changed

your

work?

Jaar: Rwanda required me

years Each working project on was this project, a new

to shift my perspective quite radically. If I spent six

it was a new trying different and strategies a new of representation. Iwould learn strategy, failure.

exercise,

16 FALL 2005

Alfredo Jaar, Lament of the Images, 2002, on plexi texts mounted three illuminated by glass, light screen, texts composed David Levi Strauss, installation view and detail of first version, Documenta 11, Kassel (artwork ?Alfredo Jaar)

and move serial ity

on

to the next of exercises

exercise was

that also would forced by sense.

fail

and

so on. tragedy

Basically, and my

this incapac

structure

the Rwandan

to represent

it in a way

that made

Phillips:
are an

Serial exercises that are inadequate or fail yet inform the next project
way to think about process. There is a long history in art of

intriguing

beholding images, so it is striking when images are withheld. And yet this in your work actually creates very vivid effects about process of withholding
the absence These of images. were a response this at a loss. to the dimension that, a year of in most before the tragedy did and my not want

Jaar:

exercises

incapacity to hear

to communicate about it. Iwas

to an audience I spent almost

cases, I started

to create

these works. And then I felt that I had to keep trying new strategies, but was
always gained an artist. frustrated a new The with insight dozen on the results. images It is true and that after the Rwanda never since the project, same do I again not use as Iwas done

photography. that I have

or more

projects

Rwanda

18 FALL 2005

Cape Town, South Africa, February 11,1990. Nelson Mandela is released from prison, after 28 years of brutal treatment by the apartheid regime. The ?mages of his
release, broadcast live around the world, show a man squinting

into the light as if blinded. More than half of Mandela's

Island, a windswept

sentence was spent on Robben

by the treacherous seas

rock surrounded

of the Cape of Good Hope. Only seven miles off Cape Town, the island had been used as a maximum security prison for
"non-white" men since 1959. Mandela's fellow inmates there

included Walter Sisulu, Ahmed Kathrada, and Govan Mbeki, the father of current South African President Thabo Mbeki. Mandela later said that Robben Island was "intended to cripple us so that we should never again have the strength and courage
to pursue our ideals."

In the summer of 1964, Mandela and his fellow inmates in the isolation block were chained together and taken to a limestone quarry in the center of the island, where they were put to work breaking rocks and digging lime.The lime was used to turn the island's roads white. At the end of each day, the black men had themselves turned white with limedust. As they worked, the lime reflected the glare of the sun, blinding the prisoners. Their repeated requests for sunglasses to protect their eyes
were denied.

There are no photographs that show Nelson Mandela weeping on the day he was released from prison. It is said that the

blinding light from the lime had taken away his ability to cry.

images?until about world the uses of

this most and misuses

recent

work

in

Angola.

I am

suspicious

and

disillusioned and think the that

of photography And to make things

in the art world, more complicated,

the press, I don't

entertainment.

the general public iswell educated regarding images. Generally, we are taught
how to read, but we are not taught how to look.

Phillips: To bring critical capacities towhat we

that you ferent learned from your be function father about reading newspapers?must How do you

see?or
and

the kind of discernment

three or four dif

analyzing

developed. as a visual never artist All in this of my system works where after the Rwanda reception became it as a

Jaar: of

images

is innocent?and in representation. essay on

critical?

exercises philosophical

Lament of the Images was the failure of representation.

an exercise.

I described

I had read an article in the New York Times about Cor bis, a photo agency owned by Bill Gates, becoming the largest photo agency in the world, purchas ing millions of images from different international photo agencies and signing important museums of the world. Then he bought the Bettmann and UPI archive that has some of themost significant images of the twentieth century. Today I think he owns one hundred million images that he will contracts with themost archive in an abandoned quarry in Pennsylvania. Although he plans to digitize
this vast collection, the process will take about five hundred years to complete!

^^^^^^^^^^^^HHI

A year or two later Iwas

Island, sad and where curious Nelson Mandela

in Cape Town, South Africa. I visited Robben

was a prisoner the tour for guides almost are thirty former years. It was a prisoners. After

experience

because

jfigg BHB ? ^H ^H

M. llRpniMfHMiJM? ? :?^H m> i j?S^^^H i?*??""? ?> ? ??? .? .? ? . ? M^???m ..w^nn? .^^H^ . "' ". ^"? ." "' * "i'jiT |B^. n7 "SmZ1?111?J!JS^?SS?55 y^?l^H jp?.i M*^**?i?M.Ml?W^^^^M

Lumi?res la dans Ville H

I finished
oners off with were the white

the official tour, I asked to visit the limestone quarry where

required limestone where and, to work. damaged black men I learned about the work eyes. blinded. else, I read So and how I connected weeks sunlight Gates's later,

the pris
reflected quarry the war of in

prisoners' were

the quarry

Several about

Afghanistan

started

like everyone

the purchase

all avail

able satellite images by the United

I decided to connect these three

We all were blinded by this decision. States.

stories.

So

Phillips: The texts richly reverberate.

Alfredo Jaar, Lights in the City, 1999, instal lation views of public project, Montr?al (artwork ?Alfredo Jaar)

Jaar: Because of my poor English, I asked my friend David Levi Strauss to com
pose the texts for me. As you know, he is one of the most brilliant critics and

thinkers on photography
"blinding" experience

today. Iwanted
to the audience. So

to complete
the next

the piece by offering a final

offered a large illumi

space

nated screen that simply contained light without images, but a very powerful light that left the audience temporarily out of sight and shocked into blindness.
We access the tions Images Phillips: are living today and never in a paradoxical Our situation. landscape control about There has never by been images. so much But at to information time, we images. have Iwanted had is saturated of images

same and

so much to speculate on our

by private

corpora

governments.

this

situation. to images in your

Lament of the today. between

is a modest

philosophical that you

essay

relationship a balance

You mention

try to maintain

work

projects for galleries and museums,

Is there a recent public project

public projects, and teaching and pedagogy.

feel was successful or where you learned

that you

something or observed consequences

20 FALL 2005

that you might

bring to future projects?

Alfredo Jaar, The Skoghall Konsthall, installation views of public project, Sweden Skoghall, (artwork ?Alfredo

2000, Jaar)

Jaar: The Montr?al project was interesting but difficult for me. I accepted this opportunity shortly after I finished the Rwanda project. Iwas offered a space to in a prominent former Parliament building called the display images inwindows The images were going to be lit from behind, transforming the windows Cupola. into light boxes. But after the RwandaProject,I knew itwould be difficult for me to
use images. I accepted this project because it was a challenge. I often put myself

in these difficult situations. I don't know why, but this is how I function best. I
visited shelter Montr?al that offered several meals times, and I discovered people next to the Cupola shelter a homeless had a moving to 3,200 each month.The

dignity, and itwas also invisible.When

was invisible near just like the homeless It became shelters the Cupola. clear:

I asked about this, people

sent me the to visit tragedy suffer

told me
two

that it
other

in the city. They people

of homeless

ness in invisibility and silence. I began to talkwith thewomen and men in the shelters. They talked about the fact that they felt invisible. Often they asked for
money because to on the streets, sought their garbage same time, a they public presence, can or a told me, not only of because their they needed They but they it but wanted were also people over recognition through lamppost to study is humanity. a hello,

they

acknowledge as a the

a smile, ignored.

looked, At

I started

the Cupola,

which

had

burned

five

times

in its history. Each time the city decided to rebuild this national monument. After the fifth fire, the Parliament decided tomove to another building. So the Cupola
stood abandoned. In a moment of lucidity, I connected the fires in the Cupola

with

I thought: Why don't we put the fire back in the Cupola to call attention to the fifteen thousand homeless in a city the situation of the homeless
as Montr?al?

inMontr?al.
we

as prosperous

Why

don't

"burn"

it again

so

that people

can

see

the plight of the homeless

entered the shelters

in the city? My simple solution was

sleep, they could hit a switch to

that as people
trigger a hundred

to eat or

thousand watts of red lights illuminating

the shelters.

the Cupola to signal their presence

in

I submitted my proposal to the people at the shelters. They appreciated that Iwas not exposing them through photography. They liked and approved my
idea. These red lights connected to the shelters were my way of sending a distress

signal to the city?of making the homeless visible without pointing at them directly. Of course, the red lights also recalled the fires that consumed the build Iwas trying to suggest another kind of fire, ing many times, but metaphorically,
one that immolates and consumes society itself. This project was part of a pho

tography biennial,
was, issue become us and in fact, a of homelessness a permanent get connected,

so the piece had another theoretical meaning.

without became monument but six weeks the person prominent of shame, later in sight. For six We magical wanted in Montr?al. and other

Each red light

weeks the to the Cupola to join

portrait

shelters cancelled

wanted it. Like

the mayor

all of my

projects, it failed.We did not give the homeless a home. We did not resolve their problem. We gave them a brief, hopeful moment when they regained their
humanity, when their when the press status people also started acknowledging to the dialogue, these projects regarding you their but presence, eventually so smiled they . .. little at them, returned to contributed With

as homeless. are

change reception,

Phillips: in public

There art.

so many

vagaries

perception,

and

control

It is a very

fraught

process.

22

FALL 200?

Alfredo

Jaar, Infinite Cell

One), 2004, composite Galleria Lia Rumma, Alfredo Jaar)

(Gramsci Trilogy installation view, Milan (artwork ?

Jaar: Absolutely. As an artist and architect, Imeticulously design each detail, but lose control because it is in the public realm. It is difficult to predict what a you project may provoke. One night, I observed a group of drunken men waiting half an hour for the red lights to appear. Itwas an uncharacteristically quiet night, but suddenly the red lights brightened and then disappeared. The men began to cheer. Iwas saddened and frustrated that they applauded the lights, but
did not acknowledge what they represented. Iwas very frustrated. You lose con

trol.You cannot predict what will happen when

Phillips: and In conclusion, in your Iwant work. to try This to make

your work
some seems connection to be

is in the public space.

between very strategic. control I think

theatricality

theatricality

24

FALL 200?

of your project at Skoghall, where

community constructed around a

you built amuseum

major paper mill

of paper in an industrial
drove the

that essentially

economy of the town. But Skoghall is bereft of culture, and for amoment
gave tion, of them and a kunsthalle. You then had the well built the paper set on museum, fire. The organized timing, a one-day and structure

you
exhibi duration

temporality, character.

this project?as

as its denouement?had

a theatrical

Jaar: In the case of Skoghall, Iwas shocked to discover that a community could exist for thirty years without any visible cultural or exhibition space. How do you
represent the absence of this space for culture in an entire community? I found it

hard to believe that people could Uve without

the intellectual and critical stimulus

25

art journal

that visual

art can

provide?to

question,

to

speculate,

and

to search.

It blew

my

mind.
space of what pearing"

I sought a spectacular way

for twenty-four contemporary it in such it was a hours art and

to deal with
then burned it can do I hoped

this lack. I created an exhibition

it away. Iwanted to offer Then a by glimpse "disap in a community. to reveal I studied its absence. theater for many years.

is and what way,

spectacular

Yes,

obviously plays and was

a theatrical a terrible device. As

strategy. actor. an artist case,

I even wrote pline and

I am and

interested architect, theatrics

in theater everything of a project

as a disci I do are ideas. language into or an is too dry I never is to just I

communicative the reading of

facilitate that. They hope that excess and know

the work. of

In this

the

respond

to the needs

the piece as I am

to communicate just one that element I sometimes

specific in the fall

that any I need or obscure.

theatricality

is understood an the walk idea.

to communicate suppression You always of

sure

theatrical. a fine

The work line between

is either excess

too much and and can seem assure lack that of constraint. spectacle. richly more you

if I reach But For

the perfect recognize

balance that the

between ideas and

information sensations

Phillips: Jaar: than

you

resonate.

the outside but all about this

observer, for

the Skoghall of this

project town, of I am

may I can their proud

spectacle that the life. The

information, was made

the citizens

spectacle spectacle

the visual

materialization and visceral.

cultural

lack physical

a year

later, when

Sweden created a countrywide

nated my short-lived has created structure this project build a real a movement in their

register of significant buildings,

as its most among important concerned building. citizens

Skoghall nomi
The after-effect funds of to to seek

kunsthalle

community.

Phillips:
of you do of not

I think of you as neither pessimistic

as both deal with and pessimistic frivolous your freshness and optimistic. in your work.

nor optimistic. Alternately,

an understatement, do you keep your How

I think
but sense you

It is such

topics

resolve

in the work

in such

challenging

circumstances?

You deal with

became

subjects of tremendous gravity. Itwould

In a recent issue of The Nation,

be understandable

if you
Studs

discouraged.

ninety-three-year-old

Terkel wrote
retained an

a testimonial
incredible sense

to Pete Seeger on his eighty-sixth

of conviction and commitment

birthday. They have

to progressive ideas

and work
Jaar:

through their long lives. How does this happen?

know how to answer this almost existential question. Iwas think

I don't

ing of Gramsci, towhom I recently dedicated a trilogy of projects in Italy.He wrote about the pessimism of the intellect and the optimism of the will. I still
believe lives. in the capacity It is only through of culture, like Gramsci productions, did, actions, to make and a difference programs in our that we can cultural

improve our lives and the lives of people around us. I am very critical of the role of politics and disillusioned by the role of most of themedia, which is in the hands of a few corporations that have transformed it into a business like any
other. only I still believe, space left because we have no choice, we place can where that the world and of culture new is the ways seen in the world the world?the today where only suggest

speculate we

of understanding

can dream.

I have

enough
we have

to be a pessimist,
no choice. Hope

and I am a depressing
or nothing.

character [laughter], but I think

26

FALL 2005

Phillips: This is a good way to end, but letme present this brief coda.What do you think of the artist interview, this frequently used genre of "artwriting"? Can the interview be a fruitful and effective form of critical exchange? The interview
has an become interview a ubiquitous form. Every museum proliferate publication in art has magazines critical and essays and with the artist. Interviews journals.

And here I am doing one with you! It is a curious but insufficiently

phenomenon.

examined

Jaar: I generally don't like interviews. Often

common because between of our the interviewer years of and common

there isn't enough knowledge

I accepted and this interview You

in

interviewee. history

twenty-five

relationship.

have

followed my work for such a long time. Only when there is this deep knowledge shared by the participants, perhaps some illuminating truth can be shared with
the more reader. When of a play there between isn't this trust and the shared knowledge, seeks to then it becomes her or his actors, where interviewer

display

knowledge
image given

and the respondent also plays the game of presenting her or his best
of poor enable a circumstances. truly shared and I enjoy honest reading exchange. interviews when the

in the face conditions

Alfredo Jaar is an artist, architect, and filmmaker who lives and works inNew York. His work has been shown extensively around the world. He was named a MacArthur Fellow in the year 2000. He currently inMinneapolis. holds theWinton Chair in Liberal Arts at the University of Minnesota Patricia C. Phillips is the editor-in-chief York, New Paltz. of Art Journal. She is a professor at the State University of New

27

art journal