3:10-cv-01750 #83

Case 3:10-cv-01750-VLB Document 83
Filed 08/15/11 Page 1 of 2
Case 3:10-cv-01750-VLB Document 83
Case 3:10-cv-01750-VLB Document 83-1
Exhibit A
Case 3:10-cv-01750-VLB Document 83-1 George A. Chauncey, Ph. D.
Filed 08/15/11 Page 2 of 31 July 12, 2011 Page 1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK -------------------------------------EDITH SCHLAIN WINDSOR, in her capacity as Executor of the Estate of CLARA SPYER, Plaintiff, -againstTHE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Defendant. -------------------------------------(Caption continued on next page.) 10-CV-8435
DEPOSITION OF GEORGE A. CHAUNCEY, Ph.D.
Tuesday, July 12, 2011
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Defendants. -------------------------------------OFFICE OF PERSONNEL MANAGEMENT, TIMOTHY F. GEITHNER, in his official capacity as the Secretary of the Treasury, and HILDA L. SOLIS, in her official capacity as the Secretary of Labor, et al., -againstPlaintiffs, Civil Action No. 310 CV 1750 (VLB) UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF CONNECTICUT -------------------------------------JOANNE PEDERSEN & ANN MEITZEN, GERALD V. PASSARO II, LYNDA DEFORGE & RAQUEL ARDIN, JANET GELLER & JOANNE MARQUIS, SUZANNE & GERALDINE ARTIS, BRADLEY KLEINERMAN & JAMES GEHRE DAMON SAYVOY & JOHN WEISS,
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DEPOSITION OF GEORGE A. CHAUNCEY, Ph.D., a Witness herein, taken by Intervenors, pursuant to Notice, at the offices of Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison LLP, 1285 Avenue of the Americas, New York, New York 10019 on Tuesday, July 12, 2011, at 10:00 a.m., before DEBRA STEVENS, a Registered Professional Reporter and notary public, within and for the State of New York.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. deposition? A.
G. Chauncey No, I am not an attorney. What did you do to prepare for today's
I reviewed the affidavit I submitted, I
the deposition and testimony in Perry.
reviewed some of the materials related to the case and I re-read part of my book on marriage. Oh, I met with counsel yesterday to prepare for the deposition. Q. I would like to ask you some questions You use the
about terminology in the affidavit. term "homosexual." homosexual? A.
How do you define a
I have generally defined "homosexual"
as someone who has an identity based on their sexual attraction to people of the same sex. someone for whom that is a core part of their identity. Q. And you also used the term "gay" How do you define So,
throughout the affidavit. "gay"? A.
I know that some people distinguish
"gay" and "homosexual," but I use them synonymous.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q.
G. Chauncey And you use the term "lesbian" How do you define
throughout the affidavit. "lesbian"? A.
In similar terms, as a woman who
identifies herself on the basis of her sexual attraction to women. Q. Do you know what percentage of the
American population is gay, lesbian or bisexual? A. I don't know. I think that the
estimates that I have seen that seem most authoritative would put it somewhere between 3 and 5 percent or 3 and 4 percent of the population. Q. I don't think it was in the affidavit
but I saw somewhere you used the term "homosociality." What does that mean? Objection to form. You
MS. KAPLAN: can answer. A.
Well, let's see.
"Homosociality" has But as academics
been used in different ways.
use the term, it typically would refer to a social group that is same sex or to patterns of association that are same sex. Q. How does that term differ from
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Sorry. A. "homosexuality"? A.
G. Chauncey
There is not necessarily a homoerotic So that American
content to homosociality.
society historically was once more sex-segregated than it is today in everyday life and in politics and business and so forth. So, there were often That
groups of men together and women together.
didn't mean that they were erotically attracted to each other. It was the social organization of
gender at that time. Q. And have you consistently used the
same definition of homosexuality throughout the affidavit? MS. KAPLAN: Just so I understand,
throughout Defendant's 2? MR. DUGAN: Defendant Exhibit 2. Yes.
I believe I have.
I would have to
look -- it depends -- probably in some cases, and I actually don't remember the instances here, but I would distinguish between "homosexual" as a noun, referring again to someone who is distinguished from others on the basis of their primary sexual attraction to people of the same
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G. Chauncey sex, and "homosexual" as an adjective, which could just describe erotic sexual relations between people of the same sex who do not identify themselves as homosexual. Q. And have you consistently used the
same definition of homosexuality throughout your career? MS. KAPLAN: can answer. A. Well, I have written so many pages on Objection to form. You
this subject I wouldn't say that every single time I used the term I have used it exactly this way. But broadly, this has been the way I have
used these terms. Q. If we can turn to Defendant's You
Exhibit 2, paragraph 2 on the first page?
list some of the cases you have either testified in or been a deposed expert in. Can you just
tell me what kind of case Donaldson v Montana was? A. It was a case in the State of Montana
in which there is a constitutional amendment banning marriage but this is a case seeking relationship -- legal recognition of same sex
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G. Chauncey prohibitions against sodomy and unnatural acts, penalized a wide range of non-procreative behavior, including many forms of what now would be called homosexual conduct." Is it the case that these legislators -- they were not legislating against homosexual acts per se; correct? A. Well, there is -- again, the word
"homosexual" wasn't available to them and so they were operating out of the conceptual framework that I just began to describe. The laws varied. Broadly, the
southern colonies adopted the secular legislation of England, and so they typically criminalized buggery, which included male anal penetration of a woman, a man or a beast, whereas in the puritan colonies in New England, although they certainly penalized a wide range of nonmarital sexual behavior, they were likely -- for instance, in Massachusetts -- to simply quote Leviticus, prohibition against a man lying with another man, and make that a capital offense. Q. You mentioned the British tradition of How did
a secular prohibition against buggery.
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G. Chauncey What are some of the reasons historians have given to explain this? A. Well, one reason that historians have
given for the apparent inconsistency between the vehemence of the denunciation of sodomy from the pulpit and the relatively small number of prosecutions is that -- and we're talking about very small communities and towns in colonial New England in which people's lives were deeply intermeshed. There is some thought that the severity of the punishment -- this is a capital crime -- dissuaded people from pressing charges even if they had some concerns about people; again, people they were closely related to. And some have wondered if the demonization of sodomy was so enormous that it was just hard to connect it to the everyday people they knew in their communities. But again I would stress that this is still an enigma that historians are trying to understand. Q. Turning to paragraph 21 on the same
page, page 9 of Exhibit 2, you write there,
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G. Chauncey starting in the second sentence, "Current historical research suggests that the concept of the homosexual as a distinct category of person developed as recently as the late 19th century. The word 'homosexual' appeared for the first time in a German pamphlet in 1868 and was introduced to the American lexicon only in 1892." Can you explain how this historical process of the idea of the homosexual as a distinct category arose? MS. KAPLAN: can answer. A. We're going to be all day if you want Objection to form. You
me to explain this. Q. A. Can you give the CliffsNotes version? Okay. We'll switch from the graduate
seminar to -MS. KAPLAN: lecture. A. Well, again I will say, as I did Go to the freshman
before, historians think about and write about this question a lot and, so, have pointed to earlier periods in which people seemed to have had persistent interest in people of the same sex
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G. Chauncey without being categorized as homosexuals, those categories being unavailable. Their emergence has been attributed, for instance, to the growth of the medical profession and scientific research, which helped produce and circulate terms of this sort. There
is a general impetus towards classification of people. People have talked about the growth of large cities, in which it was easier for people to separate themselves from the family or household economy and to create lives as lesbians or gay men who lived outside of constraints that they had experienced in small towns. Those would be two of the major factors people have pointed to. Q. What was the nature of the reference
to homosexuality or the term "homosexual" in that 1868 pamphlet? A. I believe this was a pamphlet that
was -- I could be wrong about this since I am not a German historian, which is where this appeared. But I believe this was a pamphlet written in the context of discussions of the sodomy law in
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
G. Chauncey Germany or in Prussia. So again it gives us an indication of the degree to which sodomy was -- you know, encompassed more than homosexual conduct. It was
understood as being primarily by this time an anti-homosexual measure. Q. Then how did the word "homosexual"
enter the American lexicon in 1892? A. I believe that it first appeared in an
American medical journal in 1892. Q. Did it take time for "homosexual" to
be recognized as a specific social category in the United States? A. Well, again, we're talking here about Then as
a precise medical or scientific term.
now, there were a wide range of vernacular terms used in the streets: Fairies, pansies --
"lesbian" actually had been used for a time since it drew on classical references to the poetry of Saphho, who lived on the isle of Lesbos. "Homosexual" spread but there were other terms that had similar or related meanings that were probably used more commonly. Q. In that same paragraph you are talking
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
G. Chauncey people of Asian descent, women, lesbians and gay men. One would just need to sort of think about
the historical specificity while still recognizing that these groups have all experienced a general pattern of discrimination. Q. At the time of the adoption of the
14th amendment was it illegal for two men to have anal intercourse with each other in every state in the union? A. I believe it was illegal in every
state to have anal intercourse, yes. Q. In the 19th century, was marriage
implicitly understood in America to be the union of one man and one woman? MS. KAPLAN: can answer. A. Well, expectations about what marriage Objection to form. You
meant and who was available to -- who had access to marriage have changed over time, so that I think in the 19th century one could say that it was generally assumed that marriage would involve only a man and a woman. It was also generally
assumed that a black person and a white person could not marry.
Filed 08/15/11 Page 15 of 31
Name of Cases: UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK EDITH SCHLAIN WINDSOR, in her capacity as Executor of the Estate of THEA CLARA SPYER, Plaintiff, v. THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Defendant. (10 Civ. 8435) (BSJ) (JCF) UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF CONNECTICUT JOANNE PEDERSEN & ANN MEITZEN, GERALD V. PASSARO II, LYNDA DEFORGE & RAQUEL ARDIN, JANET GELLER & JOANNE MARQUIS, SUZANNE & GERALDINE ARTIS, BRADLEY KLEINERMAN & JAMES GEHRE, and DAMON SAVOY & JOHN WEISS, Plaintiffs, v. OFFICE OF PERSONNEL MANAGEMENT, TIMOTHY F. GEITHNER, in his official capacity as the Secretary of the Treasury, and HILDA L. SOLIS, in her official capacity as the Secretary of Labor, MICHAEL J. ASTRUE, in his official capacity as the Commissioner of the Social Security Administration, UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE, JOHN E. POTTER, in his official capacity as The Postmaster General of the United States of America, DOUGLAS H. SHULMAN, in his official capacity as the Commissioner of Internal Revenue, ERIC H. HOLDER, JR., in his official capacity as United States Attorney General, JOHN WALSH, in his official capacity as Acting Comptroller of the Currency, and THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Defendants. (310-CV-1750) (VLB) Date of Deposition: Name of Witness: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 George Chauncey, Ph.D.
Filed 08/15/11 Page 16 of 31
George Chauncey Errata Sheet for July 12, 2011 Deposition I wish to make the following changes, for the following reasons:
PAGE LINE: CHANGE FROM: CHANGE TO: REASON:
6:19 Vicki Vickie Typographical Error
7:1 plaintiffs plaintiff Transcription error
8:20 American history since 1919; courses on American American history since 1919; also courses on American Transcription error
8:24 in the United States, courses on the history of in the United States, and courses on the history of Transcription error
PAGE LINE: CHANGE FROM: CHANGE TO:
11:89 for deposition preparation for the deposition. for preparation for the deposition.
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George Chauncey Errata Sheet for July 12, 2011 Deposition REASON: Transcription error
12:25 synonymous synonymously Transcription error
14:4 content to homosociality. So that American content to homosociality. American society Transcription error
15:12 this subject I wouldnt say that every single this subject. I wouldnt say that every single Typographical error
18:23 alone between mid 1920s and mid-1960s alone between the mid-1920s and mid-1960s. Transcription and typographical error
23:11 as second class citizens by denying the right to as second class citizens by denying them the right to
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24:3 courts to decide what they may wish to about this courts to decide what they may wish to do about this Transcription error
25:810 I believe it was called Coloradoans Against Special Rights, but I need to double check that name, Colorado for Family Values Witness advised he would confirm the groups name and he did.
27:25 it was engaged it has engaged Transcription error
29:24 write in gay write gay Clarification
PAGE LINE: CHANGE FROM:
31:5 have been allow to.
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George Chauncey Errata Sheet for July 12, 2011 Deposition CHANGE TO: REASON: have been allowed to marry. Clarification
34:21 Leviticus, Leviticuss Transcription error
36:17 accustomed to road shows, but in these days they accustomed to road shows, but in those days they Transcription error
37:5 I have think you touched on this I think you have touched on this Transcription error
38:2021 clippings of crackdowns. And so they both published clippings of crackdowns. And so they published Transcription error
PAGE LINE:
42:1011
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George Chauncey Errata Sheet for July 12, 2011 Deposition CHANGE FROM: CHANGE TO: REASON: In the 1990s many clergy condemned and still condemn homosexuality as sinful. The In the 1990s, many clergy condemned (and still condemn) homosexuality as sinful. The Typographical error
43:10 Gods God has Transcription error
44:13 rights of that equality rights or that equality Transcription error
48:1112 intermeshed. There is some thought that the intermeshed -- there is some thought that the Transcription error
51:4 you know, even though it Transcription error
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George Chauncey Errata Sheet for July 12, 2011 Deposition PAGE LINE: CHANGE FROM: CHANGE TO: REASON: 51:5 conduct. It was conduct it was Clarification
57:16 of World War in World War Transcription error
52:22 same paragraph, you write, Between the 1920s and the 1950s the government, drawing on long same paragraph, you write, Between the 1920s and the 1950s, the government, drawing on long Transcription error
63:3 who was psychological better adjusted. And no who was psychologically better adjusted. And no Transcription error
66:1821 You say that [] Omit quotation marks. This is a paraphrase of the actual text.
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George Chauncey Errata Sheet for July 12, 2011 Deposition
67:11 I have mentioned. And so there was much more I have mentioned. And so there was a much more Transcription error
67:13 that the why the Clarification
68:20 campaigns and that campaigns, in that Transcription error
69:4 demonization and became an occasion for demonization and it became an occasion for Transcription error
74:1617 Polling data suggests the magnitude of the shift. In 1985 only a quarter of Polling data suggest the magnitude of the shift. In 1985, only a quarter of
Filed 08/15/11 Page 23 of 31
74:20 gay and more than half believed that they did not gay, and more than half believed that they did not Transcription error
76:6 camp camps Transcription error
76:9 accepted. It is very regionally and by religion accepted. It varies regionally and by religion Typographical error
76:19 has been relative more openness, less policing, has been relatively more openness, less policing, Transcription error
78:12 can be healed. NARTH also lectures partners with can be healed. NARTH also lectures, partners with
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George Chauncey Errata Sheet for July 12, 2011 Deposition REASON: Transcription error.
79:21 homosexuals to be disordered in some way, a homosexuals to be disordered in some way, based on a Transcription error
83:24 And so, their discrimination has taken And so, discrimination has taken Transcription error
84:19 meant and who was meant and who it was Transcription Error
87:7 respectful respectable Transcription error
88:11 beginning of the 20th century there was much more beginning of the 20th century, it was much more
10
Filed 08/15/11 Page 25 of 31
91:13 decision, which was significant, to overturn the decision, which was significant, in overturning the Transcription error
91:19 at any given in the present Clarification
94:19 generic. generic term. Transcription error
94:20 Fifty years ago no state had a gay rights law Fifty years ago no state had a gay rights law Omit quotation marks; transcription error
97:56 changes that have led to decline changes that have led to a decline
11
Filed 08/15/11 Page 26 of 31
98:3 because of censorship, less representation at all because of censorship, less representation, if at all, Transcription error
98:5 that on the that in the Transcription error
98:19 there have also been persistence and even an there has also been persistence and even an Typographical error
101:9 Do this strand of gay liberationist Does this strand of gay liberationist Typographical error
101:15 bit but shared bit, but it shares
12
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George Chauncey Errata Sheet for July 12, 2011 Deposition REASON: Clarification
102:12 Guy Gay Transcription Error
103:2 Why dont you look at it. Why dont you look at it? Typographical error
105:13 Now as I say here, yes, there is Now, as I say here, yes, there is a Typographical error
108:11 directly but often directly, but most often Clarification
109:1819 people who support anti-gay -- sorry. Laws against discrimination against gay people but --
13
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George Chauncey Errata Sheet for July 12, 2011 Deposition CHANGE TO: REASON: people who support anti-gay -- sorry, laws against discrimination against gay people but Transcription error
110:20 Dr. Chauncey that ran in University of Chicago Dr. Chauncey that ran in the University of Chicago Transcription error
111:25 referring to referring to, Transcription Error
112:23 some of the sailors at this naval station training station in Newport some of the sailors at this naval training station in Newport Transcription error
112:20 to page 28. I think it is second page in. This to page 28. I think it is the second page in. This Transcription error
PAGE LINE:
115:67
14
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George Chauncey Errata Sheet for July 12, 2011 Deposition CHANGE FROM: CHANGE TO: REASON: hand -- I dont think have made a claim that marriage between two women or two men have been hand -- I dont think they made a claim that marriage between two women or two men had been Transcription error
118:7 the Jews or the the Jews, or of Transcription error
118:8 enslaved people or enslaved people, or Transcription error
15
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George Chauncey Errata Sheet for July 12, 2011 Deposition
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George Chauncey, Ph.D Subscribed and sworn to before me this \0j day of August, 2011.
JOSEPHINE DE BRIDGITA _ Notary Public, State of Connecticut My Commission Expires Sept 30,2015
(MY COMMISSION EXPIREES)
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STATE OF
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Filed 08/15/11 Page 31 of 31 July 12, 2011 Page 12 5
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
DEPOSITION ERRATA SHEET
Our Assignment No.: Case Caption:
321173
Windsor Vs. United States
DECLARATION UNDER PENALTY OP PEfRJURY
I declare under penalty of perjury that I have read the entire transcript of my Deposition taken in the captioned matter or the same has been read to me, and the same is true and accurate, save and except for changes and/or corrections, if any, as indicated by me on the DEPOSITION ERRATA SHEET hereof, with the understanding that I offer these changes as if still under oath.
GEORGE A. CHAUNCEY Subscribed and sworn to on the /{J day of
J&tyjbtL.
20 JJ__ bef r e o
me.
Subscribed and sworn to before me
22 23 24 25
Notary Public, in and for the State of
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C-^ Avy-erôJnT""
J O S E P H I N E D E BRIDQITA Notary Public, State of Connecticut My Commission Expires Sept 30,2015
ESQUIRE
Telephone: 212.349.9692 Facsimile; 212.557.2152
HUM***.
One Penn Plaza Suite 4715 New York, NY 10119
Exhibit B
Case 3:10-cv-01750-VLB Document 83-2 Letitia Anne Peplau
Filed 08/15/11 Page 2 of 51 June 17, 2011 Page 1
DEPOSITION OF LETITIA ANNE PEPLAU, Ph.D.,
Friday, June 17, 2011
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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF CONNECTICUT -------------------------------------JOANNE PEDERSEN & ANN MEITZEN, GERALD V. PASSARO II, LYNDA DEFORGE & RAQUEL ARDIN, JANET GELLER & JOANNE MARQUIS, SUZANNE & GERALDINE ARTIS, BRADLEY KLEINERMAN & JAMES GEHRE, and DAMON SAVOY & JOHN WEISS, 310 CV 1750 Plaintiffs, (VLB) v. OFFICE OF PERSONNEL MANAGEMENT, TIMOTHY F. GEITHNER, in his official capacity as the Secretary of the Treasury, and HILDA L. SOLIS, in her official capacity as the Secretary of Labor, MICHAEL J. ASTRUE, in his official capacity as the Commissioner of the Social Security Administration, UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE, JOHN E. POTTER, in his official capacity as The Postmaster General of the United States of America, DOUGLAS H. SHULMAN, in his official capacity as the Commissioner of Internal Revenue, ERIC H. HOLDER, JR., in his official capacity as United States Attorney General, JOHN WALSH, in his official capacity as Acting Comptroller of the Currency, and THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Defendants. --------------------------------------
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
DEPOSITION OF LETITIA ANNE PEPLAU, Ph.D., an Expert Witness herein, taken by Defendant, pursuant to Agreement, at the offices of Paul Weiss Rifkind Wharton & Garrison, LLP, 1285 Avenue of the Americas, New York, New York, on Friday, June 17, 2011, at 10:40 a.m., before Margaret Eustace, a Shorthand Reporter and notary public, within and for the State of New York.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. Q. A. Q.
L.A. Peplau, Ph.D. Yes, I have. How many times? I have testified twice. Have you ever been excluded as an
expert in a case? A. Q. No. Do you know the plaintiffs in both
these cases? A. Q. A. Q. No, I don't. You have never met any of them? No. I know the answer to this, but I will Are you an attorney?
ask it for the record: A. Q. No.
I would like to go into the question
of sexuality. How do you define homosexuality? Homosexuality isn't actually a term I I would think of it in the terms
would use.
of the broader term of sexual orientation. That is what I addressed in my affidavit. Q. How would you define sexual
orientation? A. I would define sexual orientation as
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A.
L.A. Peplau, Ph.D. an enduring set of emotional sexual attractions towards men, toward women or toward both. I would as well define sexual orientation as including a person's identity as gay or lesbian or heterosexual or bisexual. And I would also include it under the rubric of sexual orientation related behavior. For
example, forming a relationship with a person of the same sex or of the other sex. Q. Within the definition of sexual
orientation, do you define gay differently from that? MR. BENSON: Object to the form.
I think the term gay is used in a It is one of the sexual
variety of ways.
orientation identity labels that some people might adopt. The term is, I think, most
commonly used with regard to men, but it is sometimes used in a generic way to apply to women as well. Q. A. How would you define lesbian? I think of lesbian as an identity
label or category that would be used for women
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A.
L.A. Peplau, Ph.D. whose enduring attractions are toward other women. Q. A. How would you define bisexual? Again, I would define it as an
identity label for a person whose emotional and romantic and sexual attraction are towards persons of both sexes. Q. Do different fields of study use
different definitions of sexual orientation? MR. BENSON: Object to the form.
You know, I really am not an expert
on how philosophy or political science or other fields might define sexual orientation. So I don't have a good answer for that question. Q. What about in the social sciences? MR. BENSON: Object to the form.
You know, I am a psychologist, so the
definition of sexual orientation that I use and that I am most familiar with is one that is -- has been used by the American Psychological Association, which is our national professional association, it has been used by them in their educational materials
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q.
L.A. Peplau, Ph.D. for the public and for practitioners. It is a
widely accepted definition within psychology, but I really couldn't tell you what is a standard sociology definition of sexual orientation would be. MR. DUGAN: this marked Exhibit 3. I am going to have This is the APA
answers to your questions. (APA answers were marked as Defendants' Exhibit 3 for identification.) Dr. Peplau, do you recognize this
document? A. Q. A. Yes. What is this document? It's a document prepared by the It is It has
American Psychological Association. called "Answers to your questions."
been prepared as an educational material by the APA. Q. I direct you to page 2 of this There is a question that says, What
document.
causes a person to have a particular sexual orientation?"
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. Q. record.
L.A. Peplau, Ph.D. And I will read this in for the
"There is no consensus amongst scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay or lesbian orientation. Although much
research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social and cultural influences on sexual orientation no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many
think that nature and nuture both play complex roles. Most people experience little or no
choice about their sexual orientation." Do you agree with this? Yes. And is this a consensus for you
amongst scientists? MR. BENSON: Object to the form.
I think it is a widespread view.
There are many ideas here, but in the main, I think the ideas that the causes of sexual orientation are not understood is an idea that
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. record.
L.A. Peplau, Ph.D. is accepted by many researchers. Q. Would it fair to say that scientists
don't know what causes a particular sexual orientation? A. Q. I will say that. Paragraph 11 of your expert report
you stated -MR. BENSON: Exhibit 2 for the
MR. DUGAN:
Yes.
-- you stated that, "It is well
established that homosexuality is a normal expression of human sexuality." What do you mean by "normal" in that sentence? A. What I really mean is explained in
the following sentence, which says, "It is not a mental illness, and being gay or lesbian has no inherent association with a person's ability to lead a happy, healthy or productive life or to contribute to society." I mean it in that way, that homosexuality is part of a wide array of forms of sexual orientation and that there is
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A.
L.A. Peplau, Ph.D. one that suggests that unlike some of the past views that linked sexual orientation with mental health that that is a view that psychologists and I no longer accept. Q. I want to go back to the question of
sexual orientation. Is there a difference between sexual orientation and sexual attraction? A. I think sexual orientation is a
fairly broad term that encompasses many components, and attraction would be one of the ingredients of sexual orientation. Q. Do scientists know what percentage of
the American population is homosexual? MR. BENSON: Object to the form.
There are a variety of estimates that
have been made based on research projects. So, for example, in the national representative probability sample by Laumann and others, a project I reference, they used people's sexual orientation identity self-definition of being lesbian, gay or bisexual or heterosexual. And according to their data,
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A.
L.A. Peplau, Ph.D. somewhere between 1 and 2 percent of women identified as lesbian, and somewhere between 2 and 3 percent of men identified as gay. think that's a reasonable estimate, using self-identification as a measure of sexual orientation. Q. Have these estimates varied And I
throughout time? MR. BENSON: Object to the form.
It is fairly new that we have
estimates based on representative probability samples. And so prior to research by Laumann
and others, there were certainly estimates that were based on nonrepresentative samples and sometimes those estimate were different. Q. A. Q. You cite Dr. Kinsey's work. Yes. I believe he said that -- he had that
famous 10 percent number about homosexuals. Has that number been discredited? MR. BENSON: Yes. Objection to form.
I would say that people have a
better understanding of Kinsey's numbers, that Kinsey's sample of men, just where the number
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A.
L.A. Peplau, Ph.D. comes from was not representative, and that it is, I think, now widely believed to have been too large a number. Q. Does the percentage of people who
consider themselves homosexual differ in different areas of the country? MR. BENSON: Object to the form.
The data that I know that have
representative samples are not differentiated by region of the country. For instance, the
Laumann data are not differentiated by region, so I don't have a basis for answering that question. Q. The term LGBT, lesbian, gay, bisexual
and transgender, what does that term mean? MR. BENSON: Object to the form.
Sometimes when people are trying to
find a shorthand way to talk about people who are not sort of traditionally heterosexual, they will use acronyms. And I think that's
really just a way of saying here are a set of people. For instance, in many colleges there
might be an LGBT resource center for students, and that would be a center that provided
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A.
L.A. Peplau, Ph.D. homosexual acts? MR. BENSON: Object to the form.
Same objection. You know, how I would classify such a
person would depend on the goal of the research project. Researchers who are
interested in studying the transmission of sexually transmitted diseases might be particularly interested in studying men who have sex with men regardless of whether they identify as heterosexual or gay. And a term
that is commonly used for that for those men is men who have sex with men, MSM. Q. birth? MR. BENSON: Objection to form. Can sexual orientation be defined at
What research shows is that people
come to understand their sexual orientation most typically during adolescence, so I would say that looking at a newborn, I would not be able to tell you what that child's sexual orientation is going to be. Q. In paragraph 15 of Exhibit 2, you
describe the continuum of sexual orientation.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Q. A. Q. A.
L.A. Peplau, Ph.D. (Copy of paper by Herek Norton Allen and Sims was marked as Defendants' Exhibit 4 for identification.) Do you recognize that, Dr. Peplau? Yes. What is that? This is a copy of the paper by Herek
Norton Allen and Sims that I was referring to in paragraph 25. Q. If I could have you turn to page 186,
which is table 3 of this article. You wrote, "95 percent of gay men experience no choice at all or very little choice about their sexual orientation." Looking at table 3, is it fair to say that nearly 7 percent of gay men felt that they had a small amount of choice in their sexuality and 5.2 percent said that they experienced a fair amount or a great deal of choice in their sexuality? MR. BENSON: Objection to form.
Let me split that up. Is it fair to say that 7 percent of
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q.
L.A. Peplau, Ph.D. gay men felt that they had a small amount of choice in their sexuality? A. Q. Yes. And is it fair to say that 5.2
percent experienced a fair amount or great deal of choice in their sexuality? A. Q. Yes. With regard to lesbians, doesn't the
study show that 31.6 percent of lesbian women experience a small amount or a fair amount of choice in their sexuality? MR. BENSON: Compound. I will split that up. Does this study show that 15.2 percent of lesbians experience a small amount of choice in their sexual orientation? A. Q. Yes, that's what the study shows. And does this study show that 16.4 Objection to form.
percent of lesbians experience a fair amount or a great deal of choice in their sexual orientation? A. Q. Yes, that's what this study shows. And looking at the last column there,
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. shows.
L.A. Peplau, Ph.D. on table 3, if one factors in gays, lesbians and bisexuals, both bisexual men and women, isn't it true that 14.2 percent experience a small amount of choice in their sexual orientation? A. Q. Yes, that's what the table shows. Is it true that 25.2 percent
experience a fair amount or a great deal of choice in their sexual orientation? A. So just so I am clear, what we are
doing here is we are adding in bisexuals, who are people who are attracted to both men and women, and when you do that you find that the percent of lumping together lesbians, gay men and bisexuals who report they have a fair amount or a great deal of choice is 25 percent. And, yes, that's what the table
MR. DUGAN:
Mark that Exhibit 5.
(Paper by Greg Herek was marked as Defendants' Exhibit 5 for identification.) Do you recognize Exhibit 5,
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Name of Cases: UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK EDITH SCHLAIN WINDSOR, in her capacity as Executor of the Estate of THEA CLARA SPYER, Plaintiff, v. THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Defendant. (10 Civ. 8435) (BSJ) (JCF) UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF CONNECTICUT JOANNE PEDERSEN & ANN MEITZEN, GERALD V. PASSARO II, LYNDA DEFORGE & RAQUEL ARDIN, JANET GELLER & JOANNE MARQUIS, SUZANNE & GERALDINE ARTIS, BRADLEY KLEINERMAN & JAMES GEHRE, and DAMON SAVOY & JOHN WEISS, Plaintiffs, v. OFFICE OF PERSONNEL MANAGEMENT, TIMOTHY F. GEITHNER, in his official capacity as the Secretary of the Treasury, and HILDA L. SOLIS, in her official capacity as the Secretary of Labor, MICHAEL J. ASTRUE, in his official capacity as the Commissioner of the Social Security Administration, UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE, JOHN E. POTTER, in his official capacity as The Postmaster General of the United States of America, DOUGLAS H. SHULMAN, in his official capacity as the Commissioner of Internal Revenue, ERIC H. HOLDER, JR., in his official capacity as United States Attorney General, JOHN WALSH, in his official capacity as Acting Comptroller of the Currency, and THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Defendants. (310-CV-1750) (VLB) Date of Deposition: Name of Witness: Friday, June 17, 2011 Letitia Anne Peplau, Ph.D.
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Letitia Anne Peplau Errata Sheet for June 17, 2011 Deposition I wish to make the following changes, for the following reasons:
16:3 would it would it be Transcription error
22:23 ASEF (ph) NSF [National Science Foundation] Transcription error
29:20 questions lesbians Transcription error
32:13 Does California studies Those California studies Transcription error
33:23 I see against relationships of lesbians and gay men. I seewhere it says, The relationships of lesbians and gay men
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Letitia Anne Peplau Errata Sheet for June 17, 2011 Deposition REASON: Transcription error
41:4 It was always conceivable It is always conceivable Transcription error
42:1518 All close same sex relationships between friends, relatives, coworkers, acquaintances or others which shall be considered homosexual relationships. Of all close same-sex relationships between friends, relatives, coworkers, acquaintances, or others, which shall be considered homosexual relationships? Transcription error
CHANGE TO:
REASON:
49:56 however, it actually an encompasses however, it actually encompasses Transcription error
51:35 harms not individuals in legal same sex marriage but gay men, lesbians and bisexuals as a group. harm not only individuals in legal same-sex marriages, but gay men, lesbians, and bisexuals as a group. Transcription error
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Letitia Anne Peplau Errata Sheet for June 17, 2011 Deposition PAGE LINE: CHANGE FROM: CHANGE TO: REASON: 57:10 no singular theory no single theory Transcription error
57:14 the interplay biological, the interplay of biological, Transcription error
57:24 that is all learning experience that it is all learning, experience Typographical error
59:22 married that the families would accept married that their families would accept Typographical error
61:7 protection or lesbians protection for lesbians Typographical error
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Letitia Anne Peplau Errata Sheet for June 17, 2011 Deposition PAGE LINE: CHANGE FROM: CHANGE TO: REASON: Add Q: Typographical error 63:6
66:6 One form that One form that is Transcription error
67:11 homosexual marriage is one homosexual marriage if one Transcription error
70:21 I to want pose an objection I want to pose an objection Transcription error
71:24 will not effect heterosexual will not affect heterosexual Typographical error
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Letitia Anne Peplau Errata Sheet for June 17, 2011 Deposition PAGE LINE: CHANGE FROM: CHANGE TO: REASON: 76:8 they in partners are that partners are Transcription error
77:25 expert experiment Transcription error
78:3 assign peoples conditions assign people to conditions Transcription error
78:18 simply her asking simply asking her Typographical error
80:13 mental harm disparities mental health disparities Transcription error
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Letitia Anne Peplau Errata Sheet for June 17, 2011 Deposition PAGE LINE: CHANGE FROM: CHANGE TO: REASON: 81:24 Fingerhut, et al. Paper Fingerhut, et al. paper Typographical error
82:16 depressed depression Transcription error
88:8 an individual as an individuals Typographical error
96:2 many Americans old many Americans hold Typographical error
98:4 imagines of lesbian images of lesbian Transcription error
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Letitia Anne Peplau Errata Sheet for June 17, 2011 Deposition PAGE LINE: CHANGE FROM: CHANGE TO: REASON: 98:6 for trails portrayals Transcription error
98:14 More the point More to the point Typographical error
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Exhibit C
Case 3:10-cv-01750-VLB Document 83-3 Gary M. Segura, Ph. D.
DEPOSITION OF GARY MICHAEL SEGURA, Ph.D.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF CONNECTICUT -------------------------------------JOANNE PEDERSEN & ANN MEITZEN, GERALD V. PASSARO II, LYNDA DEFORGE & RAQUEL ARDIN, JANET GELLER & JOANNE MARQUIS, SUZANNE & GERALDINE ARTIS, BRADLEY KLEINERMAN & JAMES GEHRE, and DAMON SAVOY & JOHN WEISS, 310 CV 1750 Plaintiffs, (VLB) v. OFFICE OF PERSONNEL MANAGEMENT, TIMOTHY F. GEITHNER, in his official capacity as the Secretary of the Treasury, and HILDA L. SOLIS, in her official capacity as the Secretary of Labor, MICHAEL J. ASTRUE, in his official capacity as the Commissioner of the Social Security Administration, UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE, JOHN E. POTTER, in his official capacity as The Postmaster General of the United States of America, DOUGLAS H. SHULMAN, in his official capacity as the Commissioner of Internal Revenue, ERIC H. HOLDER, JR., in his official capacity as United States Attorney General, JOHN WALSH, in his official capacity as Acting Comptroller of the Currency, and THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Defendants. --------------------------------------
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DEPOSITION OF GARY MICHAEL SEGURA, Ph.D., an Expert Witness herein, taken by Defendant, pursuant to Agreement, at the offices of Paul Weiss Rifkind Wharton & Garrison, LLP, 1285 Avenue of the Americas, New York, New York, on Friday, July 8, 2011, at 9:15 a.m., before Margaret Eustace, a Shorthand Reporter and notary public, within and for the State of New York.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. answer?
G. Segura questions that attorneys might choose to ask me. And I had a preparation session yesterday
with counsel. MR. DUGAN: Can you read back that
(Record read.) What was the question that was posed
to you for your affidavit? A. The question I was asked to address
was the relative powerfulness or powerlessness of gays and lesbians in the political system. Q. I want to ask about some of the
terminology you use in your affidavit, throughout your affidavit you use the term gay men or gays. How do you define gay? I would define gay as an individual
who has primarily the same sex sexual attraction and has adopted a public persona consistent with that sexual attraction. would distinguish it from homosexual or homosexual acts, which I think is a more complex undertaking. Q. What -- how do you define homosexual? And I
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A.
G. Segura So there is a broad class of
individuals who have same sex sexual attraction. Some individuals have same sex
sexual attraction alongside opposite sex sexual attraction and they are generally referred to as bisexual. But people who have primarily same sex sexual attraction fall into a number of categories. Some have same sex sexual
attraction and never act on it for whatever reason, social convention, religious upbringing, et cetera. They would be, in
terms of orientation, homosexual, but they are not engaging in homosexual acts and I would not classify them as gay. The second category is the more technical one. These are individuals who do
act on their same sex sexual attraction, but, again, for whatever reason, choose not to socially identify as a person of that sort or that type. The Centers for Disease Control,
for example, when looking at STD transmission or HIV transmission, never refers to gay or homosexual. They refer to men having sex with
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A.
G. Segura men because that is the clinical activity that they are interested in, whether or not those individuals choose to identify publicly as a gay person or to identify themselves in that community. For gay and lesbian, I am talking about individuals who not only have same sex sexual attraction and act on it but choose to identify it as part of their life structure. Q. I think you hinted at it there, but
when you use the term lesbian, how do you define it? A. A woman with primarily same sex
sexual attraction. Q. Do you know what percentage of the
American population is gay, lesbian or bisexual? MS. KAPLAN: I do not know. So the most recent report I have seen puts the number between 3 and a half and 4 percent for gay men and lesbians. The Objection to form.
research I have read to prior to the most recent report suggests that the rate is uneven
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
G. Segura for men and women, that it might be more common among men than women. And for bisexuals, I am less informed. bisexuals. Q. Have you written any articles on the I don't know the percentage of
question of gay and lesbian political power? A. I have written articles on gay and
lesbian issues, and in least in one instance it was specifically on electoral opportunities for gays and lesbians, so I guess that would yes, but not around and abstract notion of political power as that being the entire purpose of the study. Q. Have you taught classes on gay and
lesbian political power? A. Yes. So in the 1990s I taught a
class called either Politics and Homosexuality or Gay and Lesbian Politics, the name was different at different institutions. And in that course, we considered in depth whether or not gays and lesbians possess sufficient political power to protect their basic interests, so this was a very live topic
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Exhibit D
In The Matter Of:

EDITHSCHLAINWINDSOR v. THEUNITEDSTATESOFAMERICA
___________________________________________________
NANCYF.COTT,PH.D.Vol.1
July6,2011
___________________________________________________
NANCY F. COTT, PH.D. - 7/6/2011 Page 1

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x EDITH SCHLAIN WINDSOR, in her capacity as Executor of the estate of THEA CLARA SPYER Plaintiff v. No. 1:10-cv-08435(BSJ)(JCF)
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA Defendant - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
DEPOSITION of NANCY F. COTT, PH.D. Wednesday, July 6, 2011 9:34 a.m. Gay & Lesbian Advocates & Defenders 30 Winter Street Boston, Massachusetts
Michelle Keegan, Court Reporter
Merrill Corporation - New York 1-800-325-3376 www.merrillcorp.com/law
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COTT, PH.D. - 7/6/2011 Page 2
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A P P E A R A N C E S: GAY & LESBIAN ADVOCATES & DEFENDERS By Mary Bonauto, Esq. 30 Winter Street Boston, Massachusetts 02108 (617) 426-1350 mbonauto@glad.org Counsel for Plaintiffs in Peterson Case
PAUL, WEISS, RIFKIND, WHARTON & GARRISON LLP By Andrew J. Ehrlich, Esq. 1285 Avenue of the Americas New York, New York 10019 (212) 373-3166 aehrlich@paulweiss.com Counsel for Plaintiffs in Windsor Case
BANCROFT PLLC By Conor B. Dugan, Esq. 1919 M Street, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20036 (202) 234-0090 cdugan@bancroftpllc.com Counsel for the Defendant
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE By Jean Lin, Esq. Federal Programs Branch 20 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20530 (202) 514-3716 jean.lin@usdoj.gov Conusel for the Defendant Also Present: Shira Hoffman Peter Dunne Suzanne Love Ashley Dunn
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No.
I N D E X Videotaped Deposition of: NANCY F. COTT, PH.D. Examination by Mr. Dugan Examination by Mr. Ehrlich Further Examination by Mr. Dugan 4 59 61 Page
E X H I B I T S Page Portion of deponent's CV Deponent's expert affidavit Bibliography Excerpts from deponent's book, "Public Vows" 7 8 8 42
10
Exhibit 1
11
Exhibit 2
12
Exhibit 3
13
Exhibit 4
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Original exhibits retained by court reporter
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together. Q I think you talked about the pair, in your Did that pair ever include same-sex
previous answer. couples? A
Not to my knowledge, in the colonial part of
the -- part of North America or at the time of the founding among those who consider themselves part of the new United States. Q Has marriage been a national or federal issue
09:53:02 10 09:53:05 11 09:53:08 12 09:53:08 13 09:53:10 14 09:53:13 15 09:53:15 16 09:53:17 17 09:53:19 18 09:53:23 19 09:53:29 20 09:53:34 21 09:53:43 22 09:53:51 23 09:53:56 24 09:53:59 25
at times during American history? MR. EHRLICH: ambiguous. You can answer. A Q You said a national or a -Let me rephrase. Has marriage been an issue of federal law at times during American history? A Q A Yes, marriage in federal territories. What about marriage among native Americans? Yes, that's a good point, that in dealing with Objection to the form. Vague and
Indians, again, in federal territories and in certain states where the federal government was dealing with the -- with native Americans through the Bureau of Indian Affairs, the form of marriage observed by these populations was of concern to that federal agency, yes,
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and to certain people in congress. Q In the post civil war era, did the federal
government involve itself in the question of the marriage between former slaves? A During the civil war when the South was
occupied and in the very beginning of the post civil war period when the southern states were not yet reconstituted, yes, the federal government through the Freedmen's Bureau concerned itself with marriages of the freed men and women. Q I'd like you to turn to Paragraph 13, page 5 of This is your expert affidavit. I didn't catch which page.
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Exhibit 2. A Q A Q
I'm sorry.
Page 5, Paragraph 13, right under Section B. Okay. You write there, "What is seen as legitimate
marriage in a given society may be, for instance, polygamous, monogamous, matrifocal or patrifocal, patrilineal or matrilineal, lifelong or temporary, open or closed to concubinage, divorce-prone or divorce-averse," and so on. Are you an expert in marriage and world cultures? A As I said at the outset, I am a specialist in
the history of the United States, but that is studied in
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A law? MR. DUGAN: That's right. Q to divorce his wife because she was past child-bearing age. Men and women known to be sterile have not been
prevented from marrying, nor could a marriage be annulled for an inability to bear or beget children." What about the case of impotence? been a bar to marriage? MR. EHRLICH: Objection to form. In -Has that
-- in the United States, from the founding
until now. MR. EHRLICH: Under federal law or any state
Federal law, so far as I know, has never dealt Certainly in colonial law there -- in New
with this.
England, yes, impotence or impotency was a reason to dissolve a marriage if there had been no knowledge of that by the partner who was deprived before the marriage. Knowledge that the person he or she was marrying could not engage in sexual intercourse would -if that knowledge was there before the marriage, then the inability was not a cause for dissolving the marriage. Q Does this mean that consummation has been
required to validate marriages in the United States,
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federal or state subdivisions? A Well, certainly federal law has never dealt
with this, so far as I am aware. No, I do not think that consummation has been required. I'm not aware of any law in a state or colony
that required consummation through sexual intercourse for a marriage to be valid. sufficient. Consent was considered
And prior and more important and even the
Christian church from the beginning of the period considered consent more important than consummation to a marriage. Q And in returning to the question of impotence,
09:59:31 10 09:59:34 11 09:59:34 12 09:59:38 13 09:59:40 14 09:59:42 15 09:59:49 16 09:59:55 17 09:59:57 18 10:00:01 19 10:00:15 20 10:00:19 21 10:00:22 22 10:00:26 23 10:00:29 24 10:00:32 25
do you know why impotence has been a grounds for annulment or divorce in American law? A Yes. I believe that it is because sexual It was not
intimacy was assumed to be part of marriage.
required for a marriage, but it was assumed to be part of marriage. Q And that was the reason.
Would you turn to Paragraph 21, which goes from Dr. Cott,
the bottom of page 6 to the top of page 7.
you write, "The notion that the main purpose of marriage is to provide an ideal or optimal context for raising children was never the prime mover in states' structuring of the marriage institution of the United States, and it cannot be isolated as the main reason for
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characteristics and in their skills and in their strengths and weaknesses. Q Yes.
Has monogony been a central part of the
American understanding of marriage? MR. EHRLICH: Objection to the form. At all
points since the founding? MR. DUGAN: At all points since the founding in
the states and in federal law. A Has monogony be a central understanding of what I would say yes.
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marriage is? Q from?
And where does the concept of monogony come
MR. EHRLICH:
Objection to the form and beyond
the scope of the affidavit. But you can answer if you know. A I believe it is Christianity that has been the
most important philosophical trend in enforcing monogony -- Christianity as compared to Judaism or Islam or Buddhism or other world religions. Q And the understanding of monogony in the United
States from the founding until, let's say, 15 years ago, monogony was understood to be between one man and one woman, correct? MR. EHRLICH: Understanding by whom? Objection to the form.
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Q A Q A 15 years.
The public understanding. The general public understanding? Yes. Yes, although I would put it back more than I would say that really from the 1970s
certain people thought that monogony could -- was appropriate for two people of the same sex, but it wasn't a general majority view. Q I want to paraphrase. I hope I'm accurately
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paraphrasing your testimony about Christianity's influence in establishing monogony. I think you said it
was a -- sort of the chief philosophical -- not principle but philosophical sort of thread that led to monogony in the west. A yes. Q Does that mean monogony has been the norm in Is that correct?
Well, that valorized or celebrated monogony,
Western society for 2,000 years? MR. EHRLICH: Objection to the form.
Definitely beyond the scope of the affidavit. But if you know, you can answer. A No, not that long. In Roman -- Christian Rome,
for instance, monogony with concubinage was quite typical for elites. history than that. So no, I think it's a much shorter
1-800-325-3376
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Exhibit E
Case 3:10-cv-01750-VLB Document 83-5 Michael E. Lamb, Ph.D.
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK -------------------------------------EDITH SCHLAIN WINDSOR, in her capacity as Executor of the Estate of CLARA SPYER, Plaintiff, -againstTHE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Defendant. -------------------------------------UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF CONNECTICUT -------------------------------------JOANNE PEDERSEN & ANN MEITZEN, GERALD V. PASSARO II, LYNDA DEFORGE & RAQUEL ARDIN, JANET GELLER & JOANNE MARQUIS, SUZANNE & GERALDINE ARTIS, BRADLEY KLEINERMAN & JAMES GEHRE DAMON SAYVOY & JOHN WEISS, Plaintiffs, Civil Action No. -against310 CV 1750 (VLB) OFFICE OF PERSONNEL MANAGEMENT, TIMOTHY F. GEITHNER, in his official capacity as the Secretary of the Treasury, and HILDA L. SOLIS, in her official capacity as the Secretary of Labor, et al., Defendants. -------------------------------------DEPOSITION OF MICHAEL E. LAMB, Ph.D. Friday, June 24, 2011 10-CV-8435
Case 3:10-cv-01750-VLB Document 83-5 Michael E. Lamb, Ph.D.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DEPOSITION OF MICHAEL E. LAMB, Ph.D., a Witness herein, taken by Intervenors, pursuant to Notice, at the offices of Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison LLP, 1285 Avenue of the Americas, New York, New York 10019 on Friday, June 24, 2011, at 8:45 a.m., before DEBRA STEVENS, a Registered Professional Reporter and notary public, within and for the State of New York.
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3:10-cv-01750 #83

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Case 3:10-cv-01750-VLB Document 83

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Case 3:10-cv-01750-VLB Document 83

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Case 3:10-cv-01750-VLB Document 83-1

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Case 3:10-cv-01750-VLB Document 83-1 George A. Chauncey, Ph. D.

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DEPOSITION OF GEORGE A. CHAUNCEY, Ph.D.

Tuesday, July 12, 2011

Case 3:10-cv-01750-VLB Document 83-1 George A. Chauncey, Ph. D.

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Case 3:10-cv-01750-VLB Document 83-1 George A. Chauncey, Ph. D.

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Case 3:10-cv-01750-VLB Document 83-1 George A. Chauncey, Ph. D.

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I reviewed the affidavit I submitted, I

the deposition and testimony in Perry.

about terminology in the affidavit. term "homosexual." homosexual? A.

How do you define a

I have generally defined "homosexual"

throughout the affidavit. "gay"? A.

I know that some people distinguish

"gay" and "homosexual," but I use them synonymous.

Case 3:10-cv-01750-VLB Document 83-1 George A. Chauncey, Ph. D.

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throughout the affidavit. "lesbian"? A.

In similar terms, as a woman who

MS. KAPLAN: can answer. A.

Well, let's see.

"Homosociality" has But as academics

been used in different ways.

Case 3:10-cv-01750-VLB Document 83-1 George A. Chauncey, Ph. D.

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There is not necessarily a homoerotic So that American

groups of men together and women together.

gender at that time. Q. And have you consistently used the

throughout Defendant's 2? MR. DUGAN: Defendant Exhibit 2. Yes.

Case 3:10-cv-01750-VLB Document 83-1 George A. Chauncey, Ph. D.

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used these terms. Q. If we can turn to Defendant's You

Exhibit 2, paragraph 2 on the first page?

Case 3:10-cv-01750-VLB Document 83-1 George A. Chauncey, Ph. D.

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a secular prohibition against buggery.

Case 3:10-cv-01750-VLB Document 83-1 George A. Chauncey, Ph. D.

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page, page 9 of Exhibit 2, you write there,

Case 3:10-cv-01750-VLB Document 83-1 George A. Chauncey, Ph. D.

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Case 3:10-cv-01750-VLB Document 83-1 George A. Chauncey, Ph. D.

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Case 3:10-cv-01750-VLB Document 83-1 George A. Chauncey, Ph. D.

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enter the American lexicon in 1892? A. I believe that it first appeared in an

American medical journal in 1892. Q. Did it take time for "homosexual" to

a precise medical or scientific term.

Case 3:10-cv-01750-VLB Document 83-1 George A. Chauncey, Ph. D.

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