Air Date: 10/23/20

The Root Presents: It’s Lit!

Ep. 5 - So You Want to Talk About Ijeoma Oluo
Danielle ​Welcome to It's Lit, where all things literary live at The Root. I'm Danielle Belton,
the Root's editor in chief, and I'm here with managing editor of The Glow Up, Maiysha Kai.

Maiysha ​Hey.

Danielle ​So today we are talking to Ijeoma Oluo, author of The New York Times bestseller
So You Want to Talk About Race, which recently once again reached the bestseller list
this year after making the list when it first came out in 2018. Oluo is a 2017 and 2018
Root100 honoree and winner of the 2018 Feminist's Humanists Award by the American
Humanist Society. Her writing has been featured in numerous outlets, including The
Washington Post, ABC News, Elle magazine, Time magazine and The Guardian.

Maiysha ​You know, I, I always want to talk about race, but I really, really love this book.
You know, I think for those of us who have been doing this work for years in terms of
writing about race on a daily basis, it actually provides us incredible opportunity to kind of
like zoom out to the macro of what's going on here. And she does such a great job of
pulling together how all of the components of race and racism, you know, intertwine and
intersect and impact our daily lives no matter what race you are. Right.

Danielle ​Exactly. Exactly. And I feel like I was raised talking about race. I don't know how
not to talk about race. I mean...

Maiysha ​How do you? Do you not?

Danielle ​Yeah. You know, as a Black woman, it is so much in the forefront of your life.
Like a lot of Black women, I can't separate, you know, my Blackness from my femaleness.
But I do see myself often as a Black person first, because that is what everyone else
seems to see.

Maiysha ​Absolutely. I mean, you know, we wear our Blackness and in our case, there's
also our womanhood on our sleeves. You know, those are the costumes that we're
walking through life with as Black femmes. And I think that, again, when we talk about
intersectionality, we're usually talking about Black women. But I think what Ijeoma does
here is talk about the intersectionality that exists throughout life. So I think we should jump
right into this interview. How about you?

Danielle ​All right, let's do it.

Danielle ​Hi Ijeoma. Welcome to It's Lit!

Ijeoma Oluo ​Hi.

Danielle ​Thank you so much for joining us today. I'm not sure if we've touched base since
you were a 2018 Root 100 honoree.

Ijeoma Oluo ​That was absolutely the Blackest party I was at all year. It was a lot of fun.

Danielle ​We're very proud of those parties. I'm so sad that we won't be able to have an
in-person Root 100 experience thanks to Covid.

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Maiysha ​It's still going to be Blackety Black Black Black though.

Danielle ​Yes, most definitely. Most definitely. So to break the ice a bit since It's Lit is a
podcast about Black books and writers. We'd like to kick things off by asking all our
authors to name at least one book that they consider life-changing, life-affirming, like it
blew your mind. What was that book or books for you?

Ijeoma Oluo ​Oh, man. You know, I don't know. This may sound cliche, but I guess it is for
a reason. But I was probably twelve when I first read The Color Purple. And that book, like
as a young, queer, Black woman, also trying to figure out how to heal from abuse and the
world. I don't know if I ever have before or since felt more seen in the pages of a book than
that one. And just recognizing that you could do that and that a book didn't have to be
crisp and clear and it can be messy the way people are messy, knowing that language
didn't have to follow these, you know, really Eurocentric white rules was just beautiful.

Danielle ​No, it's an amazing book. I read it when I was in junior high or high school, so
close to the same age. And it was really affirming for me as well. How about you,
Maiysha?

Maiysha ​Yeah, I don't think that's cliched at all. That remains one of my favorite books. I
think it's a classic for a reason.

Danielle ​We're so glad you're joining us today, Ijeoma, especially considering this is over
two years since the publication of your bestseller, So You Want to Talk About Race, which
we called fascinating, real and necessary at The Root back in 2018. And we can't help but
notice that quote on the cover of the paperback edition. So shout out to your publisher,
SEAL Press. But remarkably, this book became a bestseller again this summer in the
aftermath of the death of George Floyd Breonna Taylor and Ahmaud Aubrey, and the
resulting protests. Did you find it surprising that so many people suddenly gravitated back
to So You Want to Talk About Race?

Ijeoma Oluo ​Yeah. And I think surprising is a word for it. It was actually really gutting at
first. You know, you you have this book. You hope people will read it. You hope they'll do
the work with it. Couple years passes and you're like, okay, you know, it'll still...Some
people will still get it over the years, but it's done what it can do. And to realize that there
was all this potential for engaging in general with the topic of race and racism in America,
that it took brutal murders for people to pick it up again was tough. And then also, you
know, you're like, why this book? You know, why are we why don't we are picking up the
How-to-Burn-Down-the-System book? You know, why can't we do that right now? Can we
talk later?

Danielle ​No, I totally get it. So speaking of these protests, we keep hearing that, you
know, from many people that this time feels different. Have you noticed a change in the
response to your book the second time around?

Ijeoma Oluo ​Oh, yeah. Yeah. In June and the end of May, I sold more copies of my book,
like in a 30 day period than I had sold in two and a half years.

Danielle ​Wow.

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Ijeoma Oluo ​And now I would say we're probably at over two times as many copies. So,
yeah, I mean, that part where people were like, "I need to understand." But also I
absolutely have seen a difference in what people are asking when they're engaging with
the book, because it's a lot less of how do I talk to my family? Even "how do I talk to my
boss?" It's what can we glean from these pages to, like, turn our entire corporations
around to discuss as a city, you know, how to change these harmful systems. And so that,
that is different because before it was absolutely you know, people would e-mail me and
say, "We would like an author talk. Can you talk about what it's like to write this book?"
And now it's like, "Hey, all of our Black employees are saying we have to start doing better.
We're trying to use your book to do that. Can you talk to us about what we can do?" So I
am seeing a lot more focus, not enough, but still a lot more on the work that needs to be
done and less about like the experience of educating yourself.

Maiysha ​You know, I love that you talk about the educating yourself because this is, you
know, this subject material. First of all, I'm going to borrow a phrase from my southern
grandparents and to say, like, you are doing the Lord's work with this because you're
basically leading people by the hand through these really uncomfortable conversations
and, you know, conversations that evoke a really strong emotional response. You know,
one of the things that we're still grappling with is so many people can't even stand being
called white, let alone racist or reminded to check their privilege. So do you feel like, do
you honestly feel, you know, as you're getting these responses, that people are ready to
have an honest conversation about race now? And what would you say are the biggest
obstacles in them doing so?

Ijeoma Oluo ​You know, I think there's a lot of risk and fear all around. And I don't know if
ready is ever a place you can be like. I think we start to prepare. I think it's a skill. Right.
Just like, you know, I am an able-bodied cisgender Black woman. Right. And when people
want to talk to me about Ableism or transmisogyny, I'm not always ready to hear where I'm
participating. You know, in that system. But it's a process, right? Like, I'm getting better at
hearing it. I'm getting better at moving through it. And I would say that people do have a
little more bandwidth right now, especially white people, to practice that. I would say that
on the flip side, this is an incredibly difficult time for Black people to be talking about race
right now. You know, like white people are like, "I'm eager, I'm ready." And Black people
are like, "this is the most traumatic year of my entire life. Can I have a nap? Can I have a
spa day? Can I have something other than this right now?" And so that's kind of the hard
part, is there's all this eagerness at a time when Black people are especially raw and, you
know, rightfully less patient, you know. And I think that honestly, we could all serve to be
less patient Black people in these discussions because we have to practice our self-care,
you know, and listen to when our bodies and our brains are telling us that we've had
enough. But, yeah, I would say that I am absolutely seeing people come to this a little
more open-minded, especially white people and white-passing people. People with more
racial privilege are coming to this more like, OK. I'm willing to maybe hear that I've been
doing something wrong, where they weren't before. Because people are desperate to, I
think people are desperate to figure out how they could have missed this. You know,
they're like, "how did I not get that? It was this bad?" And they are finally opening up to the
idea that it wasn't hidden from them, you know, but they...that they've been doing
something to create an environment where they don't have to hear it, you know? And
that's, I think, a big difference.

Danielle ​Yeah, I, like, to piggyback on that. You know, we're having, like, this really surreal
experience right now of watching tons of white people and as you say, white,
white-passing people wake up to racism in real-time, which you acknowledge in this book.

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For those of us who've been talking and writing about race and racism for years, you
know, there's a little frustration there and distrust and even anger at the mainstream
sudden willingness to, quote, unquote, "get it." We've watched so many high profile, strong
statements about racism in recent months. And has it stirred up similarly strong feelings for
you?

Ijeoma Oluo ​Oh, yeah. I mean, I would say I was so angry at first. Also, too, because, you
know, I'm a Black woman and I was hurting. You know, I think we were all hurting. Right. I
was so hurt and traumatized and I had already been hurting. Watching you know I have
lost peers to this coronavirus and seeing how that was devastating our community. And
then also, you know, knowing that, like, of course, police brutality isn't going to take a
break at this time, it's still going to seek us out. I was hurting at first and then be like, now?
Right now? Seriously? This—you want to, you want to come to me right now? But I was so
bitter. I was really, really angry at first. I mean, to the point literally where my agent, I love
her so much, you know, had to call my whole publishing team and she had email and say,
please do not call Ijeoma with congratulations about where this book is right now, because
no one I don't know any Black person who wants their book to hit the top of the bestseller
list because more Black people were murdered. You know, like that's not...You want to
know that you matter. You know, we save Black Lives Matter. You want to know that Black
lives matter when we aren't being killed. You know that we matter all the time. So, yeah, I
was really stuck in a place for a long time. That was tough. You know, what brought me
out of it, honestly, was looking at young people. I was so worried for young people out
there in the streets protesting, you know, especially so many young Black people who are
risking their health on so many levels, risking police brutality, risking, you know, this virus
to get out there and make change. And they thought they could, you know. And then when
Angela Davis said that she felt lucky that she lived long enough to see this, I was like, OK,
look, if Angela Davis can move out of this moment and honor, you know, what young
people are doing right now, like, who am I? You know, who am I to be sitting here all bitter
in the corner. You know, I have got to I've got to join this, you know, this time.

Maiysha ​To pivot slightly, but not much, because, you know, I mean, Angela Davis is one
of the great leaders, great thinkers, and I think even one of the great feminist icons of our
lifetimes. And we are so lucky to be able to witness her. But, you know, one of my focuses
at The Root is women's issues. And while revisiting this book, one of the phrases you say
early on that really struck me was I told myself that it would all be worth it one day, that
being a successful Black woman was revolution enough. And it really resonated with me
because I think, like, that's how so many of us are moving through the world. Right. I
mean, now we're seeing a successful black woman vie for the second-highest seat in the
country right now. And you challenge that myth, you know, in terms of what that should
look like. But we know that Black women are often tasked with fixing so many of America's
problems. And you've become a vital voice in these discussions about race and racial
politics. Do you feel that burden as specifically as a Black woman? This kind of like,
cleanup burden that we sometimes get?

Ijeoma Oluo ​Absolutely. You know, it's interesting, I think, you know, that our whole lives
have been kind of defined by what we can do for community, for family. You know, if we're
not caring for people, often as Black women, we feel like we're not doing anything. I
actually just had, I forced myself to take a couple days away. You know, we're in a
pandemic, right? I realize I hadn't spent a single night away from my family in over six
months. And I needed a couple of days. And I had a full-scale anxiety attack because I
was like, I need to be doing something. I need to be looking online, I need to be calling and
make sure everyone's OK. And I was like, no, you know what? Actually, I need you take

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care of myself. I really do, because I am...I am part of that Black lives that I'm fighting for. I
am one of those lives. And I think it's important to recognize that what we have to do to
survive is not our nature. Right. It is not our nature to take care of everyone. And a lot of
times we allow people to put that label on us, that it is our nature to sacrifice ourselves.
No, that's that's survival. But we are still worthy of care. And when I do this work and I
forget that my work suffers, you know, and I suffer, my family suffers. If I forget that, you
know, I am just as worthy of love and care as I am pouring into everyone else. And I think
that regardless of what you're doing, you know, I think the work I do is more high profile.
But I wouldn't trade for a second. Like the Black women I know working in cubicles who
have to have these smaller versions of these conversations 20 times a day while risking
their salary, you know, risking their ability to put food on the table. We are all doing so
much. You know, that we shouldn't have to do. And I really hope that we can find a way
collectively to prioritize our own care. And communcal care of Black women in general.

Danielle ​No, I agree. Like, it's so important for Black women to take the time to restore
and reinvigorate themselves. I think far too often we buy into this notion that we're just
supposed to give, give, give, give, give, give, give. You know, and not—that somehow
taking care of ourselves is selfish, but it's not like if you don't take care of yourself, you
can't take care of anybody else, like you won't be able to be your best optimal self to your
society, to your community, to your family. If you aren't taking care of that primary person.
So I'm glad that you brought that up. One of the things that struck me and Maiysha about
your book is how hard it is. And even in this discussion around the election of Donald
Trump, you asked in the book, quote, "What was missing from the left's message that left
so many people unenthusiastic about supporting a Democratic candidate?" End quote. We
are once again, you know, at this juncture and we seem to be facing some of the same
disillusionment and apathy, despite the stakes being on favorability higher. You know,
we're in the middle of a pandemic. There's a protest movement going. Lots of people are
out of work. People are facing losing their homes. What do you think the left is missing?

Ijeoma Oluo ​You know, I would say that the left is missing the real fundamental truth,
which is that if you care for the needs of the most disenfranchised people in our society,
you will care for everyone. You know that if you really do appeal to what we really need
and want. If you decide we are worth the risk and the effort that will be rewarded and
instead people are willing to kind of coast on the really difficult spot we are in. I don't think
that the left understands psychologically, because if you are a white liberal, this has not
happened to you. What it means to know that yes, absolutely. Voting Republican, voting
for openly, you know, racist vitriol is putting your life in danger. And knowing that you have
to sacrifice a bit of your humanity to keep that from happening, that you have to settle for
so much less than real representation in order to keep that from happening time and time
and time again. What that does to you and what it does to your idea of citizenship. You
know, and I used to love politics. I have a degree in political science and being asked time
and time again to wait to say, you know what? We'll get around to you. We'll get around to
these pressing issues. We know you're still dying. We know you'll keep dying under a
Democrat president. But this is more important. Help us out. And knowing that there is no
way that any candidate on the left would run without hitting all of mainstream white liberal
America's needs. Right. Without at least putting lip service to it. And here we are time and
time again, told to just show up. And that being said, I will still show up because I know
what the alternative is. Right. I know that I can't put protests on the backs of my children,
you know, and an even more vulnerable Black people by saying, well, I'm not going to
show up. But I understand. I wish I could. I wish we had a robust enough political system
where I could say, screw all y'all, you know? Like, I wish I could. I wish we didn't have a

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two-party system because I know that I'm sacrificing a bit of my humanity when I make
these choices. And that really sucks.

Maiysha ​You know, you talk about the two-party system. I would also add that we are
now, you know, more polarized than we have been, or at least I would say on the surface
now, publicly more polarized than we've been in decades. And, you know, one of the
things I love so much about your work is that you urge us to hold space for multiple truths.
You know, whether we're examining our privilege or the myth of American exceptionalism
or affirmative action or intersectionality. Shout out to Kimberlé Crenshaw. And we know
that there's people who are never gonna get it, who don't want to get it. But aside from
reading this book, is there any bit of advice that you would give in terms of making space
for more than your own reality?

Ijeoma Oluo ​Yeah, absolutely. So this is something that I teach in writing classes, but I
also think it's just a really great practice. A lot of times, especially, I think an Internet age, it
is so easy to know all the right words to say, to fade into whatever group you're in. Right.
And you spend all day kind of preaching what you know, your friends are going to agree
with feeling good about it and then getting frustrated with people who aren't on board with
you. And it's really easy to build up this hubris that you've always been right, that you've
always gotten it. And then therefore there is something really wrong with the people who
don't. And what that does is it creates a situation where even if people are realizing they're
wrong, they are afraid to say it because it means maybe there's something more wrong
with them than they thought that they couldn't get it while you got it. And I am not saying
this to like—if you run across like an open racist who is like, you know, like leave them,
leave them, let them live their lives far away from you. You know, and do what you gotta
do. No sense to hold space for them. Right. They have an entire political party that will
hold space for them. But where we oftentimes are trying to get people to talk about like
policing, you know, and we may come across other Black people who are like, no, no, no,
no, no. I love police. And I'm like, look, burn it down, burn it down. And I have to remember
that, like, I wasn't always in that spot. Right. Even looking at my book, I would update it
and come across a lot more pro abolition, you know, than I did. And recognizing like I
wasn't always in that space. ​[00:22:25]​So what the exercise I always like to say is like the
last argument you got on social media with someone that was maybe of a somewhat
similar political persuasion, that you were so frustrated with them because they weren't
getting it, you know, pause and think, when were you not getting it? Like, where was that
space where you learned, because you didn't, like, come out of the womb being like, you
know, let me talk to you about intersectional feminism and what, you know, like you didn't
know any of this. Right. You didn't know why these things were important. And you got to
this space and something got you there and go back to that space before you knew and
spend a little time there and figure out who you were and why this appealed to you. And
that will give you an idea of what you need to do to have conversations with people who
aren't there yet and bring them forward and talk with humility about your steps in your
process. And remember that you were a person who deserved care at that time, too.
[54.5s] ​And you also deserved accountability. Right. You needed to be held accountable
for maybe if you were perpetuating harm. But you also know, like that was you and doing
that like exercise. Like, I teach that in writing because I find that oftentimes on the Internet
you can do a lot of persuasive essays where you're not persuading anyone because you're
just like, what's wrong with you, fool? You should've known this, right? And instead, you
need to be like, "wait, am I trying to win someone over? OK. I need to be where they're at
and pull them forward." But it's the same in our relationships. Right. And it's the same in
our dialogs that we have to remember that and know that there is someone trying to do
that for us as well, where we are failing and we aren't aware yet. That we are where we're

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supposed to be. And so I think keeping that in mind, being aware of your journey, being
upfront and open and honest about your journey is probably one of the easiest ways to
keep holding space for people and moving people forward with you.

Maiysha ​That's an incredible answer.

Danielle ​Definitely.

Maiysha ​I am inspired.

Danielle ​So, Ijeoma, if I'm not mistaken. So You Want to Talk About Race was your first
book?

Ijeoma Oluo ​Yes.

Danielle ​Amazing. And so your second is due out in December and it's titled, and I love
this title by the way, Mediocre: The Dangerous Legacy of White Male America. Now, that
title alone says plenty. And as The Root being a site whose staff is full of Black women,
we've certainly made plenty of jokes about the confidence of mediocre white men. But
what compelled you to write this book now? And what can you tell us about it?

Ijeoma Oluo ​Oh, yeah. Yeah. So it's a slightly different tone from the last book. But if
you...It's me still, you know what compelled me, honestly, and I write about this in the book
itself, was I was at a writer's retreat and realizing that in this writing retreat for women and
femmes, that we spent like half of our time, two-thirds of our time talking about shitty
dudes. And I was like, oh, this sucks. You know, like, why, why? Why are they invading
you in this space? And we were all trying to figure it out. And we're like, is it the election?
Is it, you know? And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Because this is this is my
whole life. And I'd had a lot of wine and I was thinking like, oh, you know, there's a whole
history here. And I wanted to blurt out all the reasons why. But of course, people don't
come to writer's retreats to be lectured at by a half-drunk Black woman about, you know,
the history of white male supremacy in America. So I took a piece of paper out of pockets
and I wrote down, "mediocre, the story of white male America. "That's what I wrote first.
And then I put a piece of paper in my bra because I didn't have a pocket. And I fell asleep
and I woke up in the morning and I was like, what is stabbing my boob right now? And I
pulled this piece of paper out and I looked at it. I was like, Oh. And then I didn't have
reception where I was. So I walked like half a mile down the road and just blearily, like,
texted this to my agent. And then went back, and she was is like, great! Sounds great. And
I was like, oh, I need to actually make this a book. And it was interesting because when I
started working on this book, I didn't, I don't know why I thought this would be a breeze. I
thought it would be fine. I was like, this will be exciting. No, it's not. It was the worst. Like, I
was neck-deep in horrible, you know, like equally mediocre and violent white men for two
years while also being, like, harassed and trolled in real life and also having me, like, exist
as a Black woman. But then, you know, I just re-read it for the final time. And there are
times where I was like "Huh. OK. All right. Yes. I could see. I see it. I like this. This is
good." It wasn't, you know, just because I didn't enjoy a lot of the process doesn't mean it's
not a good book. Like I would read this. So I am actually now like kind of getting excited.
I've had a little distance from it where I'm like, hey, this might do something. Like this might
be a conversation. What, you know, my goal for it was really to get people to recognize
that this is a pattern. And this is not just there is a shady dude here, the shit you do there,
but this is what we are valuing as a society. What we are rewarding as a society and we're
not going to make change just with votes. We're not going to make change just by saying,

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"that's bad." We're going to make change by rebuilding our systems and our collective
ideals. To say that, you know, this hyper-individualistic idea of power that's centered on
how you can control other people will no longer fly. And, you know, we're going to build
something different and recognizing that we all kind of participate in that system and have.
And it has cost all of us, regardless of race or gender. For hundreds of years, it's been just
disastrous. And it's taking us to the edge of this act like we're literally living the final form of
white male mediocrity right now. You know, where it's like our country is so, so attached to
just, you know, being a collection of, like, fake cowboys that we're willing to give ourselves
diseases and die, than you know seem collectively responsible. You know, and it's just...I
didn't experience you know, I didn't expect that. I didn't expet that while I was writing the
book.

Maiysha ​You didn't expect it to turn into mediocre white men endgame? Is that what
you're saying?

Danielle ​Well, definitely. You know, I always say this all the time when I have experienced
any self-doubt professionally, I say, "Lord, grant me the strength of a mediocre white man."
Like, I want the confirmation of that mediocre white man because oh, my God.

Ijeoma Oluo ​You know, I tell that to writers all the time because like writers, especially
writers of color, especially women writers of color, disabled writers are constantly like, "oh,
is this good enough?" Like I've, when I'm working, you know, working as an editor with
writers, I've never seen people who want it to be perfect. And I'm like, look, here's the
thing. Even if you are the worst writer in the world, you still deserve to be out there
because there are so many writers who never even think to ask, "am I a good writer?"
before they're out there winning Pulitzers. So just put it out there because you need to be
out there. We need to know that women can be shitty writers, too. We need to know that
Black people can be shitty, that we still have things that you said and heard, because right
now we are inundated with the mediocrity of white men and they get to get by like they
think they know one fundamental truth, which is that they think they all deserve, no matter
what they put out there, to get by. Not only that, they think they deserve to be kings. We
can at least recognize we deserve to be heard. And we deserve to exist and have safety,
you know, and I and I just want people to remember that, like I'm constantly saying, you
know, go out there and, like, absolutely still be collectively responsible. But recognize even
if you are not the best at the thing you're doing, that that has never stopped a white man in
his life from going out there and acting like he's the absolute best.

Danielle ​Not once. Not once. That was an excellent way to end this interview. Ijeoma, it
was so wonderful to have you on It's Lit and have this conversation with you.

Maiysha ​Absolutely.

Danielle ​Thank you so much for joining us. It was very affirming.

Ijeoma Oluo ​Thank you. I really enjoyed it. It was great.

Maiysha ​That The Root Presents: It's Lit is produced by myself, Maiysha Kai and Micaela
Heck. Our sound engineer is Ryan Allen.

Danielle ​If you like the show and you want to help us out, please give us a rating on Apple
Podcasts. It'll help other people find the show, and why would you want to keep something

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this good to yourself anyway? If you have any feedback or thoughts, you can find me on
Twitter at Black Snob or on Instagram at Belton Danielle.

Maiysha ​And you can find me at Maiysha. That's M A I Y S H A on Twitter and Maiysha
Kai on Instagram.

Danielle ​And before we go, we always like to talk a little bit about what book we're
currently reading. Maiysha, what are you into these days?

Maiysha ​You know, I have been working my way through Isabel Wilkerson's Caste, as I
said on the podcast. I started it and I haven't quite finished because it's a lot of book, but
it's incredible. But I got to say, I think after this, I'm going to start delving back into my Alice
Walker. You know, I have all of Alice Walker's books. Fun fact. I actually chose my alma
mater, which was Sarah Lawrence College, in part because Alice Walker attended. She
didn't stay there the whole time, but she did attend. So I'm a huge Alice Walker fan. And I
think Ijeoma just got me to dig back into my collection of Alice Walker books. How about
you?

Danielle ​Oh, well, you know, I am in the middle of conducting lots of research for a book I
am writing now. And so I am currently reading Never Caught: The Washington's
Relentless Pursuit of the Runaway Slave, Ona Judge, written by Erica Armstrong Dunbar.
And it's an excellent, riveting book about a slice of history most people don't know about
because the reality is most runaway slaves did not write or talk about their experiences
because in a lot of cases they just wanted to pretend like that shit never happened.

Maiysha ​I mean, can you blame them?

Danielle ​I don't blame them. I wouldn't want to remember slavery either if I got out of it. It's
like, well, that happened.

Maiysha ​Mmhmm.

Danielle ​And that's it for us this week. Thank you so much for listening. And we'll see you
again soon.

Maiysha ​In the meantime, keep it lit.