Air Date: 8/3/2020

The Upgrade by Lifehacker

How to Get Real About Time Management, With CEO Tiffany Dufu

Alice ​Hello and welcome to The Upgrade, the podcast on the team at Lifehacker, where
we help you improve your life one week at a time. I'm Alice Bradley, editor in chief of
Lifehacker. And today, I'm joined by our video producer, Tahsin Hyder. Hi Tahsin!

Tahsin ​Hi, Alice.

Alice ​Tahsin, this week we are tackling a problem that we all have, which is time
management.

Tahsin ​We are. And I'm actually really excited about this because guess what? I could use
the help.

Alice ​Seriously, sometimes by the end of day, I don't understand what I've been doing with
my time and why nothing has gotten done, which is why this week we're getting help from
Tiffany Dufu, founder and CEO of The Cru.

Tiffany Dufu ​I constantly ask myself what I call my drop the ball question, which is a fill in
the blank of what matters most to you and your highest and best use in whatever the thing
is.

Tahsin ​Tiffany has served as president of the White House project, was a launch team
member of Lean In and was named to Fast Company's League of Extraordinary Women.
Currently, Tiffany is CEO of tThe Cri, a peer coaching platform for women.

Alice ​She's also the author of the book Drop the Ball: Achieving More By Doing Less,
which is a combination memoir and how-to for time management.

Tahsin ​I'm really looking forward to talking with Tiffany because she's also a working
mother and I'm just ready to be a sponge to take in all of her advice.

Alice ​What do you need help with, Tahsin? What's where, where are you struggling?

Tahsin ​Well, the biggest one is overcommitting myself. I just have way too many things on
my to-do list and the list grows and I don't feel like I'm getting anywhere. And then I go to
sleep really late and just a cycle that keeps repeating itself.

Alice ​Yeah. I feel that also like it's hard sometimes to get to go to sleep earlier because
you want the time to yourself. Right.

Tahsin ​There's such a struggle between me time and like the necessity of actually
sleeping for your body's well-being.

Alice ​Yeah, yeah. There's probably a topic for another day. That's huge.

Tahsin ​Huge. How about you, Alice? Are you good at managing your time?

1
 Air Date: 8/3/2020

Alice ​You know. No, I'm terrible at it. I have this to-do list that is just growing every day
and I just keep just changing the date on it and bringing it to the next day. And I never
seem to make any headway with it. I also have a really hard time delegating, which is
something I really need to do in my job. And I mean, I really do have to drop the ball
sometimes and hand it over to somebody else. I really struggle with that. It's really hard. I
feel like I, you know, I should just be able to do stuff and I'll just do it all. And I'm just not
possible.

Tahsin ​Totally. And it's also so like guilt-inducing because—

Alice ​Yes!

Tahsin ​You feel like you're not you know, when you're not running errands, there's like a
guilt associated with that. But then when you're not there for the people that you know, you
love because you just can't kind of get grips on your time. It's it's really frustrating.

Alice ​I think that guilt is really something we all fall victim to, especially now that we're
home and we feel like we need to be able to do more because we're not commuting right
or not dealing with that part of our days. But it's actually harder to get everything done.

Tahsin ​Yeah. No, you—I mean, I think already I felt a crazy obligation to be available to
everyone all the time. I'm you know, I'm one of those people that's, you know, in the
sandwich generation where I'm taking care of a young little, you know, 22 month old and
elderly parents. And you just feel like social media, friends, I mean, quarantine. You just
feel as though you have to be available to everyone all the time.

Alice ​Yeah. Oh, man. Same I feel you on the whole sandwich thing just woof. We could
probably talk about that for hours, but but I think if anyone can help us, it's gonna be
Tiffany.

Tahsin ​I really hope so. Let's get to it.

Alice ​Tiffany, thank you so much for joining us.

Tiffany Dufu ​Thank you for having me.

Alice ​So tell us a little bit, first of all, about your book, Drop the Ball.

Tiffany Dufu ​The title is Drop the Ball: Achieving More by Doing Less. I wrote Drop the
Ball because I used to be a person who was terrified of ever dropping a ball. I used to think
that dropping the ball was a terrible thing to do. It basically meant that you were failing to
take timely action, that you were being irresponsible, that you were letting people in your
life down, that you were letting yourself down. In my case, as dramatic as it might sound, I
was letting down the entire black race, as in if I mess up, they're never going to hire
another black person again. So I, ​[00:04:52]​like many people, had a life-changing event
that caused all of the balls in my life to come crashing down. So it wasn't as if I came up
with some amazing philosophy on how to drop the ball. In my life-changing event was the
birth of my first child. But I have connected with so many women for whom it was a
diagnosis or, you know, you finally get the job of your dreams and discover that's a lot
harder to be the boss than you thought it was going to be. For many people right now it's,
you know, a viral epidemic and an economic disaster and a social uprising that's causing

2
 Air Date: 8/3/2020

people's balls to drop right and left. So, you know, when it happened to me, I actually had
a very incredible awakening, which was a discovery that even with all the balls on the floor
rolling randomly, the world didn't fall apart. Armageddon didn't hit. In other words, all of the
things that I was always paranoid would happen if I ever dropped a ball didn't happen. No
one ever called to say they didn't love me anymore or that they weren't going to be my
friend or that they were gonna disown me from the family because I didn't text them back,
or because I missed, you know, an event. I didn't get fired from my job. And so I decided to
really dig into why is it that I feel so much pressure to keep all these balls up in the air to
begin with? And that led me to basically reappropriate the term. So for me now, dropping
the ball is a beautiful thing. It means that I've released these unrealistic expectations that I
have to do it all to begin with. And then I figured out how to get clear about what matters
most to me and how to meaningfully engage other people in my life so that I can create
one that I'm really passionate about. ​[107.0s]

Alice ​You know, I think you really hit on something about talking about those fears, right?
Of like, no one's gonna love me anymore. There's something about that, like really figuring
out what's behind that overachievement mindset, figuring out what those fears are is really
important, I think.

Tiffany Dufu ​Oh, absolutely. And I think that digging into that really is the first step.
[00:06:59]​You know, one of the exercises that I love to take people through is an exercise
in which you really look at the roles that you play in your life. You know, it turns out that all
of us are born into our lives playing certain roles. If you were assigned girl, your first role
was probably daughter. If you were assigned boy, your first role was probably son. ​[17.9s]
All of us become friends, students. If we have siblings, brothers, sisters, wives, fathers,
husbands, you know, citizens, immigrants, whatever the roles are. And because we're all
ambitious enough, we by default put the word "good" in front of all of our roles. And we
strive to be not just a daughter, but a good daughter, you know, not just a good worker,
you know, a worker, but a good worker. And if you ask people to just pretend that all of
their roles are job descriptions and to kind of curate a job description, it's a really powerful
exercise. ​[00:07:53]​And so I often ask people to just answer to questions in relationship to
their roles. The first is, what does a good X do? What does a good mom do? What does a
good boss do? And the second question is, how do I know that that's what a good X does?
[15.8s] ​You know, in my good sister role and the oldest of four girls. So when my good
sister job description, there was a line that used to say, you have to respond to your little
sister's text messages like within two minutes. Right. I'm sure there's one coming up soon
that says I need one hundred dollars or, you know, or something like that. ​[00:08:26]​And
that is really the first step to coming to the realization that even though we like to imagine
that we are in the driver's seat of our own lives, that the expectations that we have of
ourselves don't originate with ourselves. When you ask yourself the second question of
how do I know? Usually it's there's someone in your life when you were growing up.
[23.0s] ​For in my case, it was my mom who I really modeled myself after. And so it was
what she did. You look at popular culture, you know, television. I grew up on The Cosby
Show, so I was basically going to be Clair Huxtable. What I grew up. And if you
deconstruct that character, she basically had flawless makeup. Flawless, perfectly
feathered hair. She walked into every room with this beautiful Eileen Fisher kind of flowy
purple thing. She had five perfectly well-behaved children. They were pretty much all
college-bound. And in the second season of her life, she made partner at a law firm. Now I
don't know how many women you know, who have five perfectly well-behaved children
that also made partner at a law firm. But I can tell you now that I'm an adult woman. It's a
pretty rare occurrence, you know. And so that's really the first step, I think.

3
 Air Date: 8/3/2020

[00:09:38]​Which is why that's such a great point of really getting a handle on where does it
originate? Where does the pressure come from? ​[5.5s] ​In order to be able to do something
about it.

Tahsin ​After you figure that out. What do you think is the next step? Is it like prioritizing the
important things? Like what? What would you do now?

Tiffany Dufu ​Well, I would back up. ​[00:09:56]​I think it's really getting clear about what
matters most to you. Separate and apart from what mattered to the advertiser who created
that commercial, that makes you feel that you're not choosy enough, mom, if you don't
choose Jif, I think it's really deciding not just what aspects of your life are important or that
matter to you—I often ask people what matters to you, and people usually rattle off
aspects of their life. "My career matters to me. My family matters to me." What I try to
coach people toward is what do you hope to achieve in relationship to what matters most
to you? You know, for me, it's advancing women and girls. That's my life's work. That's
what I'm here to do. My career matters. But if in the end, I haven't advanced women and
girls for me that it wasn't a career that was worthy of having. Certainly, my marriage is
important to me. But what matters most is that I'm nurturing a healthy partnership. That's
what matters most to me. My kids are important to me. Parenting is important to me. But
what matters most is that I'm raising conscious global citizens. That's what I hope to
achieve in relationship to my parenting. And once you have clarity about what matters
most to you, you begin to create a filter for what you should actually be focused on and
doing. That's really rooted in the next step, which is getting clear about your highest and
best use in achieving what matters most to you, instead of just saying yes to everything
that comes over the fence and your highest and best use is pretty much a combination of
what you do very well with very little effort, ​[100.8s] ​not because you are a prodigy, usually
because it's something that you've just done over and over again, combined with what are
the things that only you can do that would be either callous or highly irresponsible to
delegate to another person. And it's the combination of those two things that allows you to
really be able to create some kind of filter and focus. So, for example, one of the things
that I do really well with very little effort is help other people to achieve clarity through
guidance and encouragement, as some people say that I should monetize that and I
should actually be a professional coach. One of the things that I feel only I can do in
relationship to my kids is to instill values in them. I feel that it would be callous or highly
irresponsible to hire someone to instill values in my kids. I think parents should do that. So
my highest and best use in raising conscious global citizens is to engage my children in a
meaningful conversation. Each and every day I'm effectively my kid's coach. Okay I'm their
coach and coach in chief, whether they appreciate that or not. What kind of day did you
create for yourself today? Who did you laugh with today? OK, if an alien came from outer
space and abducted someone from your fortnight game today, who would they have
abducted? Why would they abduct? You have to get creative when they become tweens
because they don't want to answer your questions anymore. You know, who would they
have abducted and why? And in that way, I can hopefully help them to develop a positive
relationship with themselves, with their peers, with the people around them. It's very
helpful because in the good mom job description, I can tell you there's lots of things that
society tells me I should be doing. Usually for a good mom or a good mother, it involves a
lot of physical presence. There's a lot of expectations that require physical presence. Well,
I'm the founder of an early-stage startup. I work a lot of hours. I'm not able to be physically
present as much as society thinks that I should be. For my kids. But I know every day that
I'm an extraordinary mom, not just a good mom, an extraordinary mom. As long as I take
the time to have that conversation, even if I've worked, you know, a 14 hour day. And so

4
 Air Date: 8/3/2020

that's part of how you start to create the filter of what balls can you draw versus what do
you really need to hold on to, because that's going to really help you to achieve, you know,
your goals and your aim.

Alice ​So we're talking today about time management and what it sounds like you're saying
is you should sort of know your purpose right in life. Your kind of higher purpose, and look
at the day's activities through that lens and figure out how you're serving that purpose in
your day. Do you look at your like to-do list that way? Do you do pencil in or pen in, you
know, teaching my children values today? How does that work in your day to day life?

Tiffany Dufu ​Yes. So it manifests multiple ways. So the first way that it manifests and that
is ​[00:15:03]​that I've done away with To-Do list altogether. I personally can't use them
because I don't have enough discipline to account for the reality of the world. You know,
it's a 24 hour day there, seven days a week. It's time-boxed. And yet my to-do list never
factored in the fact that I'm one human being and there's only 24 hours in a day. What I
would end up doing is just keep writing. I would keep adding to the to-do list, and then I
would keep beating myself up and feeling terrible that I wasn't getting everything done,
even though rationally, if I looked at the list, it probably wasn't humanly possible to get
everything done on the list. So I use my calendar as an accountability mechanism for
myself. When something comes over the fence, I add it to the calendar, I create a calendar
and before for it, even if it seems like it's something silly, like don't forget to go to the post
office or go, it's like I put it on the calendar. That is an accountability measure for Tiffany,
because if I can find no place for it in the calendar, then it forces me to do a reality check
about whether or not this is something I need to go ahead and say yes to, whether or not I
need to tell the person who might be inviting me or involved. I'm not able to do this or to go
back to someone else. ​[74.2s] ​What might have already committed to say I know I said yes
to being on this committee. I know I said yes to reviewing this book. I know I said yes to
being a guest on this podcast. But now something has come up and I need to change that
decision, which is one of the hardest things for people to do is to actually go back and
renegotiate or to say I've to the ball on something you already committed to do. And I just
want to tell let everyone know it's possible to do that. You can change your mind here.
Your schedule can change. Your priorities can change. It's completely fine. So that's one
of the tools that I use now. You know, we're a bit quarantined. We're a lot of us in our
homes now. So I have other practices using candles and boundaries and all kinds of
affirmations and just to just continue my well-being. But one of the biggest is using my
calendar as my as my to do list.

Tahsin ​You talk a lot in your book about finding your village and especially in quarantine.
And with everything going on, there are so many relationships, but also take time to
nurture. And I'm wondering, how do you how does one go about finding their village to
help them on their journey?

Tiffany Dufu ​Well, first of all, I think that's incredibly important that we all have one. You
know, I was on the launch team for Lean In. And one of the things I like to say is that we
were never meant to lean in alone. You know, everyone needs scaffolding. I think in this
environment, it's particularly important to communicate to the people around you what your
limitations might be, what balls you might have needed to drop in order for you to be a
good anything. So that there are no hard feelings, especially because we're all working a
tremendous amount. I think knowing of the different types of people that you need in your
life for any one period of time is really great. So, for example, I'm an entrepreneur. I just
raised a round of capital for my company. In order to raise money, I needed to engage my

5
 Air Date: 8/3/2020

current investors as stakeholders and really get them engaged and helping to make
introductions and backchanneling in circle again. So that was a group of people that I
brought very close together. But one of the things that I think is also important is that we all
have a bit of a peer group, peer mentorship, if you want to call it that. That's really
supporting us and helping us move forward. And it's part of the reason why I founded a
company called The Cru, because there were so many people who understood the value
of having a peer group but just didn't have the bandwidth to find and cultivate and sustain
that kind of network. And when you layer in on top the fact that we're not organically
showing up at a cocktail party or event these days, having someone that you can just give
some information to about yourself and to have them match you, which is effectively what
the Cru does. I think can be really beneficial. So, you know, ultimately, I think that whether
it's the Cru or not, if you have a group of people who one are holding you accountable, you
know, to your goals and your ambition and you're communicating that to them, you know,
having a diverse group of people that come from different backgrounds, different
industries, different perspectives is really important. And that there's a bit of objectivity with
these individuals, you know, that they care about you, but they're not actually invested in
your decision making, which is why sometimes, you know, your partner or your friends
may not be the best crew members. You know, when they're really invested it's just so
important in order for all of us to grow and thrive. I'm the cumulative investment of a lot of
people who have poured themselves into Tiffiny Dufu. That's why I'm here.

Alice ​I love this idea because we just don't think about finding people who aren't
necessarily in our circle of whether it's our career or our lives or, you know, looking outside
of that, those small kind of insular circles seems really important to me.

Tiffany Dufu ​Yes, sometimes we do have a lot of Cru members have circles, but they may
not have circles that are not as invested. And so being able to show up to a group of
people who don't have the backstory so that you can really curate a new reality for
yourself, I think can be really incredible.

Tahsin ​Yeah, I feel like especially since getting out of college and grad school, your group
kind of gets smaller and smaller and because they get smaller and they get more invested.
And so it's really nice to have kind of an objective point of view again.

Tiffany Dufu ​Absolutely.

Alice ​So now that we're all quarantined, right, it is so much harder to plan out our days. I
mean, you talked a little bit about setting boundaries. I'd love to just hear how you're doing
that in your day to day life. You've got kids, you've got a startup. You've got so much work.
You've got you know, you're being podcast interviewed. How do you establish those
boundaries and that structure to your day?

Tiffany Dufu ​Yes. So I have a lot of practices. One is that I surround myself with things
that nourish me. So I have a bowl of fruit that's sitting right here. I have lavender oil that's
sitting in my drawer that I take out multiple times a day and put on my wrists and take
some deep breaths. I use affirmations. I grew up in a home where every day my mother
told me, Tiffany, you're so smart, you're so beautiful, you're so loved. She was constantly
using affirmations in order to encourage me. And so I use them to help me set boundaries.
So, for example, I have an affirmation here that says 12:30 is the new one a.m.. I wrote
this because I was having a hard time getting to sleep at a decent hour. I was basically
getting in the bed at 1:00. I was trying to say, oh, I'm gonna go to bed two hours earlier.

6
 Air Date: 8/3/2020

Well, you've got to do baby steps. So I decided to make twelve 30 the new one a.m. at 12
15. My alarm goes off. It's a song. It's Tina Turner's "We Don't Need Another Hero." And
that is my signal to get my behind in the bed. I have another affirmation that says, "you are
your present," because I was having a hard time just remaining present. I was so I had I
was feeling so much anxiety about what was on my calendar for that day, but I hadn't got
done what I was supposed to be doing that I decided to finish. If you can just focus on the
present moment. That would be really important. You are your present, as in you are your
gift, but also it is within your agency to stop at any time. I think it's pretty incredible and
have kind of taken advantage of the fact that we have one room that's serving multiple
purposes. So this is my studio. It's my bedroom. It's my gym. It's my office. It's all it's a
playroom. It's like one room has all of these things. And so I do set sensory boundaries.
One of my Cru members taught me how to do this. So when the room converts to
something else, I'll, for example, at the end of the workday, light a candle. When the
candle is lit, that means that this is actually my bedroom and I also open the closet door.
So you create these, you know, moments for yourself and boundaries for yourself that
helps signal I'm moving from one place to the next. And then you communicate, you know,
to other people around you, I think, especially if you have children. You know, in your
home. And of course, it depends on the age of the kids. To all everyone who has tiny
children like deserves a gold medal right now in the midst of this, I'm not sure how they are
doing it, but I just want to know my heart is going out to you right now in this moment
because there's just a unique demand there if you are physically responsible for another
human being. But those are some of the ways that I'm just making sure that I'm taking care
of myself. Which for me is a huge part of time management. It's what I'm doing to force
myself to slow down and remember that I need sustainability in order for me to achieve my
highest purpose.

Alice ​Tahsin, how are you doing it?

Tahsin ​So I have a 22-month old that is sleeping behind my wall. And, you know, it is such
a juggle. It's such a juggle. And I really feel for you. I'm also really struggling to get to bed
on time and trying not to overbook myself, because, you know, when you're when you do
have kids and when they're little. There's so many unexpected things that happen to you
that throw off your schedule. So, yeah, it's fun and it's crazy. Right. But I'm definitely going
to try the candle. I love a good candle.

Alice ​Also, I love a diffuser. I have a diffuser in here and I put Evergreen essential oil in it
in the morning. And it feels it's like it's like my signal that the day is starting.

Tiffany Dufu ​Yes.

Alice ​My little recommendation to you.

Tahsin ​I really, really love your affirmations. And I know at the beginning of this you kind of
mentioned, you know, the two questions that you should always ask yourself. Are there
other questions that you ask yourself most often to keep you on track and keep you going?

Tiffany Dufu ​Yes. There are exercises. You know, one of them is an exercise that was
made popular by Stephen Covey in his book The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People,
which is a funeral visualization exercise. I think right now it's so prescient because people
are literally losing their lives right now. And so reflecting on what you would want, a family
member, a coworker, a friend to say at the end of your journey as there are potentially

7
 Air Date: 8/3/2020

eulogizing you. You know, I'm so inspired right now by the transition of John Lewis and our
celebration of his legacy. What do you want your legacy to be? It's such a fascinating
exercise to stop and do and reflection to do whenever you're mired in all of your to-dos,
because at the end of your life, you don't want people standing up saying, well, you know,
she got a lot of things done on her to-do list. You would want someone to stand up and
say something more impactful than that. And so what immediately gets you out of the trees
and into the forest of why am I here to begin with? ​[00:26:43]​Another question that I'm
constantly asking myself. So like, what would I want people to say at the end of my life, but
also on a very practical kind of daily basis? Sometimes it's moment to moment. I
constantly ask myself what I call my drop the ball question, which is a fill in the blank of
what matters most to you and your highest and best use and whatever the thing is. So I
might get an email from someone who's inviting my daughter over for a sleepover, like in
the wake of this pandemic. And I think to myself, Tiffany is responding to this e-mail, their
highest and best use in raising a conscious global citizen right now. Is it Tiffany? And I'll be
like, no, it's not like you're going to move on and move on to something that is. ​[44.3s]
And, you know, it's like yoga. It's a—dropping the ball is a practice. You know, you build up
your muscle, you build your stamina. You build up the flexibility such that I don't have to
actually say the question all the way out loud I can to start Tiffany is...And then it's like yes
or no. And I can move on. But that keeps me accountable. It keeps me in check and it
keeps me disciplined around the practice of not giving so much of myself away that
eventually there's nothing left. That's what I'm trying to ultimately avoid.

Alice ​Well, Tiffany, thank you so much. This was this was great.

Tiffany Dufu ​Oh, thank you for having me. You guys are awesome.

Alice ​And now it's time for upgrade of the week. Every week we talk about one tiny thing
making a big difference in our lives. Tiffany, what's your upgrade this week?

Tiffany Dufu ​My upgrade this week is that I live across the street from a park in Harlem.
And I've decided that in between meetings, instead of just going to the refrigerator and
grabbing something, which is what I've been doing, that I'm going to put on my tennis
shoes and go walk around the park. And it's been amazing.

Alice ​Wow. Even in this heat?

Tiffany Dufu ​Yes, even in this heat.

Alice ​Wow. I didn't I have not been outside today, so I tip my hat to you.

Tiffany Dufu ​I've done it three times today.

Alice ​All right. You're inspiring me. I got to get out there.

Tiffany Dufu ​But it doesn't. It only takes me 12 minutes to walk around.

Alice ​Okay. That's still. That's pretty good, though. All right. Tahsin, what's your upgrade?

Tahsin ​Well, we have finally, at least for this round, gotten my daughter sleep trained,
which has been completely life-changing. She would actually put me to bed is how it would
work. We'd fall asleep together. And I would come drowsily out of her room at some point

8
 Air Date: 8/3/2020

in the night. And it's just so awesome. We finally got to a place where she wasn't teething,
wasn't sick and there was nothing else. And we're like, we're just going to try it. And she's
been going to bed with her stuffed animals. And we just lay her down and we say, good
night. And we walk out and she is she's OK. And I have like three hours back in my life.

Tiffany Dufu ​Congratulations.

Alice ​That's so huge.

Tahsin ​Thank you.

Alice ​Seriously. Oh, my God. I remember those days, woof. And now my son is 17 and it's
he may not be awake yet. Actually, it's 3:39 p.m., so.

Tahsin ​And Alice, what is your upgrade of the week?

Alice ​Well, I have been getting into adding bitters to my seltzer. I used to do this as a
substitute for, like, having a drink at the end of the day. But then I was like, this is actually
delicious. I'm good to have it all day long. So I've got grapefruit bitters, I have cherry
bitters, I have orange bitters. They're all delicious. And I got it's really it's really given me a
little pep to my drink. It helps me to drink more water during the day because, you know,
water is kind of dull. But if you add a little soda, a little bitters, it's exciting.

Tiffany Dufu ​Awesome.

Alice ​Well, thank you so much. This was great.

Tahsin ​Thank you, Tiffany.

Tiffany Dufu ​Thank you.

Alice ​And that's our show, the upgrade is produced by Micaela Heck and mixed by Brad
Fisher.

Tahsin ​Please rate us on Apple Podcasts and leave us a review, too. It'll help spread the
word about the show. And don't you want to spread the word? You can also reach us by
calling us at three, four, seven six eight seven eight one zero nine and leaving a voicemail
or write to us at upgrade at Lifehacker dot com.

Alice ​You can also find us on Twitter, at Lifehacker. On Instagram, at Lifehacker dot com.
All one word. And on Facebook, at Facebook dot com slash and Lifehacker. Sign up for
Lifehacker's daily newsletter full of tips and tricks and hacks at Lifehacker dot com slash
newsletter. And you can find show notes for this and every episode of the upgrade at
Lifehacker dot com slash the show.