Air Date: 7/20/20

The Upgrade by Lifehacker

How to Teach Your Kids to Be People, With Author Catherine Newman

Alice ​Hello and welcome to The Upgrade, the podcast from the team at Lifehacker, where
we help you improve your life one week at a time. I'm Alice Bradley, editor in chief of
Lifehacker. And today, I'm joined by our parenting editor Meghan Walbert. Hey, Meghan.

Meghan ​Hey, Alice.

Alice ​Meghan, today we're tackling a very important issue.

Meghan ​Indeed we are.

Alice ​We are finally getting to the bottom of how to teach our children how to be people.

Meghan ​That's right. We are learning how to raise them to be good human beings.

Alice ​Indeed we are. And who better to guide us than author Catherine Newman?

Catherine Newman ​Because everyone's been home all the time, the veil has been pulled
aside and kids can actually see how a household runs. Not only do kids not always know
how to do this stuff, they don't even know it's happening.

Meghan ​Catherine is the author of multiple books for both kids and adults, including
Catastrophic Happiness, Waiting for Birdy and One Mixed-Up Night. Her latest book is
called How to Be a Person: Sixty-five Hugely Useful, Super Important Skills to Learn
Before You're Grown Up.

Alice ​You know, I'm really looking forward to getting Catherine's take on things, including
hopefully she'll tell me how to convince my son to clean the toilet.

Meghan ​Yeah. That's a good one. And at what age do I teach my nine year old how to
cook all the family meals?

Alice ​I mean, it's time. He's been around for nine years.

Meghan ​Yeah. I mean, letting him live here for free. So come on.

Alice ​I mean, let me ask you a question. What does your son...What does your son do
around the house so far at the age of nine? I can't remember because my son is 17 and I
can't remember what he was doing at nine. I feel like it was nothing but playing Legos.

Meghan ​There's a lot of that. There's a lot of Minecraft. There's also he makes his bed,
which he doesn't sleep with a whole lot of blankets. So it's really just pulling the comforter
up to the top of the bed. But he does it every day and that's good.

Alice ​Every day. Wow.

Meghan ​Every day. He also folds towels.

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Alice ​Oh!

Meghan ​He's a very good towel folder. He's very neat and precise. So that's one of his
main jobs. And then he was vacuuming for a while, but he wasn't doing it as good as I
wanted him to do. So that became my chore again. So I kind of failed there a little bit.

Alice ​Yeah. That's the that's the thing, like when you're letting your kid when you're
helping your kid learn these skills, you have to be okay with them doing a bad job.

Meghan ​Yeah, that's right.

Alice ​Which is it's like an exercise in patience. Yeah.

Meghan ​Yeah. But see then I think, you know what I've what I've just taught him is, if I
don't do it good enough, Mom will take it back over. So.

Alice ​Right.

Meghan ​Whoops.

Alice ​Right.

Meghan ​Now what about your son? How much does he do around the house? He's much
older.

Alice ​He's much older. He he walks the dog. He...what does he do? He does his own like
he does his own things. He does his own laundry. He often makes his own dinner because
he's kind of on his own schedule. He makes his own breakfast lunch, obviously, like he's
he's sort of independent that way. He will clean the bathroom when I ask him to. He'll help
me straighten up when I ask him to. But I honestly like my challenge is I kind of like doing
the cleaning. I mean, I don't love it, but I get into, like, that Saturday routine of cleaning the
house and I get into the zone and kind of forget to ask him to help. And I have to
remember more to, you know, to enlist his help. Although I do find myself resenting the
toilet part because it's his it's his toilet and he needs to.

Meghan ​Yeah. And he's making the most mess.

Alice ​I mean.

Meghan ​Let's be real.

Alice ​He's 17. I mean, really just teaching about aim should be should be my goal. He's
17. It's about time he learned.

Meghan ​It's time. Before he's 18 for sure.

Alice ​Well, listen, I think we should get to the conversation with Catherine and hopefully
she'll provide some guidance for us.

Meghan ​All right. Fingers crossed.

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Alice ​Well, Catherine, thank you so much for joining us.

Catherine Newman ​Thanks for having me. I'm so happy to see you guys. Hear you guys.

Alice ​Either one. Well both, really. You can see us and hear us. The audience can only
hear us.

Meghan ​Unfortunately.

Alice ​But you got to look at our faces.

Catherine Newman ​They'll miss the part it where I cut this out of my shirt just a minute
ago.

Alice ​Really!

Catherine Newman ​A minute ago, I suddenly was like, oh, my God, I look like someone's
mom. So I cut this out. Now I look like someone's mom with a shirt, with a cutout thing.

Meghan ​It's cute.

Alice ​It is kind of cute. Doesn't look like something you cut out. I'm in shock. This is going
to be the new topic of the podcast.

Meghan ​I definitely thought she was kidding at first.

Alice ​I know. Me too.

Catherine Newman ​I could show you the little triangle of fabric. So, you know, I dressed
up for you guys.

Alice ​All right.

Catherine Newman ​OK.

Alice ​OK. So let's get serious. So tell us, what led you to write this book?

Catherine Newman ​OK. This book, How to be a Person. I always say that it got started
unbeknownst to me, when Birdy was like two. And she was always one of those kids.
She's a second kid who is like, "don't help me. I'll do it myself!" And then, you know, like
hours later you would leave for whatever it was you had missed because she had to tie her
shoes and she had do whatever she had to wash your hands by herself. And then she
turned into this like teenager like that still. So if she doesn't wanna be helped and doesn't
want to be. She has a way, she puts it that's like it sounds like she's two still where she's
like, "don't show me how. Don't. Don't explain to me!" So I asked her to do something
really basic, like it was Thanksgiving. And I asked her to like, sweep the kitchen or maybe
clean up the downstairs bathroom. And she was like, "OK, I don't know how to do that, but
don't explain it to me." And I was like, yeah, OK. So let's like figure out how this is gonna
happen. So I went to the library. Not that day, but after Thanksgiving. And I said to the
librarian, like, "hey, do you one of those books that's like the DK Big Photographic
Encyclopedia of Household Chores?" I really thought I assumed this was a thing that every

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page would be like, you know, fifteen photographs about how to wipe the table after
dinner. That book did not exist much to my shock. So I pitched that book, the Photographic
Encyclopedia of Household Chores for Children. Pitched it to Storey. They were like,
"that's a really not very fun book. Are you open to it being a little different from that?" And I
was like, "I'm not open to that at all. It's got to be a thousand pages of photographs, of
household chores, laundry, you know, 15 pages of laundry, photographs," and we
compromised on this book. And I'm real. I just feel really lucky because this book has all
the stuff I love, like communicating, which is actually my favorite thing to talk to kids about.
Protesting. You know, it's got all of the things. So that's how the book came about. And
both my kids have used it.

Alice ​Really.

Catherine Newman ​Yeah my kids who are 20 and 17. I'm not too proud to tell you. Birdy
used it before a funeral to tie her necktie. Ben used it when I asked him to clean the
bathroom and clean it like he meant it. And I went in and he got it propped open this book
for like 12-year-olds.

Alice ​Honestly, there's stuff in there that I feel like I needed, like how to roast a chicken.
I'm still a little bit in the dark about that. And I'm a little I'm afraid I'm going to poison my
family. So I was like, "oh!"

Catherine Newman ​And Ben, when he was proofreading for me, was like, "you say, to
poke the thigh. But I wouldn't have the faintest idea what part of that is the thigh." I was
like, oh my God. Who knew? Right. Like, so put a little arrow, you know. And my husband
was like, "How to apologize? As if you would ever need to!" You know, everyone's got
something to take away is my feeling.

Meghan ​That was actually, you know, Catherine. I had written about your book for
Lifehacker's parenting section. And a lot of the comments that I got from readers were, you
know, "am I too old for this book? Because I still need to learn how to be a person."

Catherine Newman ​I love that. And that kind of truly I mean, and they probably are too old
for this book. But the truth is that kind of openness to actually learning skills you don't
have, that's like how we're going to get through this moment I feel like, honestly, is
knowing what it is, we don't know.

Alice ​Right. Everybody's got their blindspots right. I, I remember being like seven and not
be able to tell time yet and feeling like I'm never going to figure this out. And I still have
that feeling that there's some big thing that I don't know how to do. I do know how to tell
time for the record.

Catherine Newman ​That maybe the time has come and gone for you to learn it?

Alice ​Yeah.

Catherine Newman ​Which is where, why people like us, like books is because it ​doesn't
really judge you for not knowing how to do something and it doesn't get impatient with you
if you forgot how to do something. Like you, the book is so is just mellowly there offering its
contents to you. ​So I. I love you know, I love books, but I love that particular thing.

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Alice ​I love the stuff in here about how to, like, write a condolence letter or an apology,
because those are things like you don't think to teach your kid and they really come in
handy to, like, know how to write a good thank-you note even is such a skill.

Catherine Newman ​Totally. And a skill that really improves your own life is what I like to
say about all of this stuff, although some of it's a little harder to sell. But a thank-you note,
you want that thank-you note in someone's mind when they're like, "who do I have to buy a
present for? That kid who wrote me that really nice thank-you note," you know? Not to be
all, like, opportunistic about it, but.

Meghan ​I wonder, Catherine, how do you—how do you expect kids to use this book? Is
this a book that you sort of when you were creating this, did you envision parents sitting
down with kids and sort of going through it? Or do you see it as something that they can
kind of stick on their bookshelf and as a reference book kind of pick up now and then when
they need, you know, a particular skill?

Catherine Newman ​That's a great question. I honestly think it's being used in different
ways, people keep sending me really funny videos of their kids like dorkily reading the
jokes out loud from that which, you know, really makes me so happy. But I would have
been the kid who read it cover to cover and then read it cover to cover again, because I
was so dorky like that and I read like Heloise's Housekeeping Hints when I was 10. And I
think for some kids it's not gonna be interesting. I mean, that's just probably truth. That's it
feels to me to think of that. But I think a bunch of kids will open it when they need to learn
how to do something. And a bunch of kids will read it a lot because the Debbie Fong our
illustrator did like the best graphics. And people have written to me that they've left it out
kind of cagily, like without making a big production about it. And their kids have picked it
up, which I love the kind of stealth, you know, leaving it around. So I think it could be used
kind of in different ways. But I like the idea that it's a resource, you know, that you're like,
"oh, I want a scrambled egg. Oh, I'll get out How to Be a Person," because there's still
something about a book that feels more curated than the Internet. You know, the Internet
is so, if you don't know how to do something and you look up like how to scramble an egg
and there's 15 million entries and each one seems to have some really particular angle.
And, you know, that feeling of just being a little overwhelmed, I feel like if someone's kind
of curated information for you, it's easier to deal with.

Alice ​Yeah.

Meghan ​Well, and I will tell you. So I had shared your book with my son. He's nine years
old. And I was going through—

Catherine Newman ​Oh, my God, my target.

Meghan ​It's perfect for him. It's got just the right like the illustrations are. It's it's really in
his wheelhouse.

Catherine Newman ​I'm so glad.

Meghan ​And so I was telling him about it. And of course, he's also at that point where he's
a little too cool for me right now. So he's certainly not going to be the kid that would like sit
down and read it in front of me. But I was going through it and I was telling him different
that, you know, how to how to clean a bathroom, as you said. I said, you know how to

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make spaghetti. And he said, "do I need to know how to make spaghetti in order to be a
person?" And I said, "well, if you want to be a person who eats spaghetti." And he goes,
and he says, "yeah, you know what? This book could come in handy. Why don't you put it
on my bookshelf?

Catherine Newman ​How to be a person who eats spaghetti.

Meghan ​Don't you want to be that person? Then you need this book.

Catherine Newman ​I love the sassy question but also that he was open to in fact, he did
want to be that person.

Meghan ​He does, yeah.

Alice ​Right. Right. This book really got me thinking about—how do we teach our kids to be
people? Right. I mean, it seems like an obvious thing that we are teaching them all the
time, but also like just how teaching them these life skills is such a tricky minefield.
Because the minute. I don't know about you guys. But the minute my son gets any whiff of
like you're trying to teach me something, he shuts down. He's like no no bu-bu-bu. No no,
none of that. Rule my hand. But it's like, how do you transmit these skills? How do you
get—give them these, you know, the things they need to carry on with their lives?

Catherine Newman ​Right. And​ I think we incorrectly assume that they kind of get it the
way they get language by osmosis. But I think it's funny, I was talking to Asha Dornfest
and um, and she had this really awesome description of the pandemic moment, which I
appreciated so much. She feels like because everyone's been home all the time, the veil
has been pulled aside and kids can actually see how a household runs. And she feels like
sort of by accident, we've been concealing it from our kids. Like everything happens when
they're in school or while they're sleeping or, you know, whatever. And now we're just
home doing the things like. In fact, you know, the laundry gets done this way on this day
and this is the day. And cleaning the bathroom, you'd usually be at school, whatever it is.
And I really love that because it made me feel like not only do kids not always know how to
do this stuff, they don't even know it's happening, you know.​ And I think of this is a terrible
story but I like to tell it anyway about one of my very best friends. But the year I lived with
him in San Francisco, Michael and I lived with him. This was 1990. And he was just a total
slob. And I love him, love him, love him. But he was such a slob, didn't clean up after
himself. And when we left that apartment on the day we were moving out, he said, I'm so
sad to leave this apartment. The bathroom always stayed so clean here. And I was like,
"oh my god!!" The magical fairy bathroom, where at night the scrubby fairies came out and
cleaned it. Like what the F? You know? And so I also, as a side note, that's also like my
main note, as you know about me, I also don't want to raise boys that think that this shit
just gets done.

Alice ​Right.

Catherine Newman ​You know that. I do think that's gendered. I do think we know
because ​there was just a recent study that men don't do that much more housework now
than our fathers did. And I find that kind of dismaying. And we know that that makes
women's lives harder. And we know that contributes to various kinds of workplace
disparities. Not to be all like hitting my, you know, hang on I got to go burn my bra. But I do

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feel like we don't want boys to just be like, "oh, we have no idea how this happens," you
know?

Alice ​Right.

Meghan ​Do you think there's a different way when you're raising boys versus girls to
handle teaching of the life skills?

Catherine Newman ​I think that's a great question. I mean, ideally, we would teach them
the same way. But I do feel like we're kind of compensating for this cultural expectation
that women do more of the kind of chores duty. Like you might—I've seen it definitely at
relatives houses where the expectation is that Birdy will help with the dishes. You know,
my butch, like, gender non-normative kid who's like, "fuck you!" You know. ​So I feel like we
have to compensate a little bit for that by making sure that the boys know it. You know, I
mean not teach it differently, I guess, but just make sure the expectation is there.

Alice ​Yeah. That's why I make my husband do everything. I'm like, you're teaching our
son.

Catherine Newman ​Oh, my God. It's really important that he do everything.

Alice ​He's got to do every—I just sit back and I, you know.

Catherine Newman ​Yeah, that's a political act. Sitting back like that. Thank you for that.

Alice ​I feel very good about it.

Meghan ​She's taking the stand.

Alice ​I'm taking a stand. I'm doing what I gotta do.

Alice ​One thing I was thinking about was I was also just like the wide disparities of like
when kids learn things. Like some kids. I know—I've gone to friend's houses and seen
their kids making, you know, the family an elaborate cake. And I'm like, I can't get my son
to make toast. How are you doing that? But just feeling like am I doing it wrong? I think
everybody's got the feeling like they're doing parenting wrong.

Meghan ​Yeah. Or is there like some sweet spot where, like they're...

Alice ​ Yeah.

Meghan ​They're going to you know, I'm I'm wondering right now, you know, in the tween
years like is, are we in that sweet spot right now? Where like he's old enough to learn how
to do some of this stuff, but not too old to shun it completely.

Catherine Newman ​Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a great thing to see where the opportunities
might be developmentally or in terms of when they're home or. I feel like I erred on the side
of not teaching my kids enough. And then I mean, if I had to explain why, I would say it's
like because I wanted them to be happy. And like, I, I just—they would get home from
school and they'd be so tired. You know I just laugh to myself because like here, their
father and I like work full time. But we would just be like, "oh my God, look at them with

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their giant backpacks. They're just exhausted." And so I feel like there is this kind of come
to Jesus moment for me realizing that there are all these things my kids didn't know to do
because I really just hadn't taught them, you know.

Alice ​Right.

Catherine Newman ​And that—and so I guess to find that balance. ​And in my family and
I'm not putting us out as a model because there's so much that's a problem. That said, the
culture is kind of like anyone will help you with anything when you need help. So it's not
sort of like everyone has assigned things, although there are. I mean, there are things that
people do routinely taking out the trash or recycling, that kind of stuff. But the flavors vary
like, "oh, my God, I just dropped a gallon jug of milk. Can someone help me mop?" And
someone will. And I feel like those kinds of for me that especially during the pandemic.
That feeling of like we're all struggling. We're working from home like, can people just be
helpful? And I feel like my kids are totally helpful. And I'm and I don't ask I don't wait till I'm
annoyed to ask, you know what I mean? Like, I don't know that vibe's not a nagging vibe.
It's just a like, oh, my God, I'm drowning. Help me vibe. And they just do. And that's nice, I
think.

Meghan ​Well, that's why I liked the one section in your book that's all about, you know,
kindness and empathy and teaching kids what to do, how to help when somebody's sick or
you know, what to do when you go visit, you know, an elderly relative in a nursing home.
And it's stuff—because kids are naturally helpful and they want to do the right thing, but
sometimes they're just not sure what that is.

Catherine Newman ​Yeah, totally I'm glad. And that makes me really happy. I love, I love
that section. I love Debbie's illustrations of that section. They're so sweet.

Alice ​Yeah. We just had an incident at home where—not incident. We had an incident
where my my uncle died, my mother's brother died.

Catherine Newman ​Oh I'm sorry Alice.

Alice ​I said to my son, like, you know, you to call grandma and just, you know, give her a
call and see how she's doing. And he was like, "what do I say? I have no idea. Do I say I'm
sorry for your loss? Is it my loss too?" He just seemed so gobsmacked by the whole thing.
And I was like, right, this is it. This is a really tricky one. And we didn't have your book yet. I
would have just been like throw the book at them and make them figure it out.

Catherine Newman ​Or you say, which I'm sure you did like some things are just really
awkward and they're. They'll be awkward your whole life. Like somethings are awkward,
but it doesn't mean you're doing the wrong thing or that you shouldn't do it. It just might
feel awkward anyway, like.

Alice ​Right.

Catherine Newman ​Exactly. And condolences. That example comes up with my kids all
the time because they love to remember about me, like in the car doing role-playing with
them, about like shaking someone's hand and saying, "I'm sorry for your loss," like, but I
feel like that's just really foundational, you know, it does feel good. But it's so hard a make
a phone call. Oh my God.

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Alice ​Right?

Catherine Newman ​They'd rather die or be naked on Tik-Tok. And be like, expressing
condolences awkwardly. And then they know it's going to segue into small talk with their
grandparents, which is like everybody's biggest nightmare. The grandparents can't hear.
They're speaking loudly. They have to repeat some stupid joke 100 times that they didn't
get like, it's all so awkward and that that's just part of life, like you're doing it totally, right.

Alice ​Right. And it's—

Catherine Newman ​And it's like that anyway.

Alice ​Right. Embracing the awkwardness is such a huge lesson I think. We had another
time where when I when my son was probably Ryan's age, he was like 10. And a friend of
mine died unexpectedly. I found out about and I was like I was so gutted. And he was, he
was patting me and going, "Shhh, don't think about it, don't think about it."

Meghan ​Aw.

Catherine Newman ​Oh my god!

Alice ​I was like, this is so sweet. But also don't don't. That's not that's not how we do this.

Catherine Newman ​That's the sweetest thing.

Meghan ​Just put it out of your mind.

Alice ​Put your mind elsewhere just shhhh.

Meghan ​Like it never happened.

Catherine Newman ​That's like my husband's consolation strategy. "Shhh, put it out of—"

Alice ​Tamp it down.

Meghan ​Bury it deep. Bury it deep inside. What do you think for you, Catherine, has been
the hardest life skill to teach your kids.

Catherine Newman ​That's such a good question. I'm just thinking. I'll tell you, it's this is
not quite an answer to that. But I'll tell you, the one that I took weirdly most seriously is that
I really didn't want them to leave the house, like, move away from home without being able
to write an excellent email. And I don't mean that like a friendly you know, I mean an email
to a teacher asking for something, an email to somebody you want to work for like that ask
kind of email I. And that's because I feel like my entire career has depended on being able
to write a good, like, appealing email, asking for something. And I really wanted them to
have that skill. I mean, like kind of crazily I really wanted them to be able to do that. And so
that looked like them writing an e-mail and showing it to me like there was some
scaffolding around where I'd be like, "oh, that's great. I might, you know, trade it, make it a
little warmer," because my son has a slight tendency to write something that sounds like a
robot wrote it. It's not like unpleasant. It's just very like, "oh, thank you for your, you know,

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missive." So that was one of my really, I guess, communication skills in general. But that
very particular thing of being able to write an email or an email saying like, "hey, my
schedule doesn't look right." You know, how do you ask for something in a way that makes
someone want to help you? Because people choose to help you. And I, and being entitled
backfires. If you proceed through the world like you're entitled to help, people really don't
want to help you.

Alice ​Right.

Catherine Newman ​So anyway, so that is what I took most seriously, maybe.

Meghan ​Well, and it's important right now because tone is everything. And yes, so much is
online and so much can get misconstrued and misread. And so that's. Yeah. That's a good
one.

Alice ​It's such a good one. And, you know, I just think about how many e-mails we get on
a daily basis. Everybody's looking for something like asking for help in some way or
reaching out. And it's so it's so easy to just click, you know, delete or hit spam on some
requests or another. And just that tone is such, such an important thing and it is so hard to
nail.

Catherine Newman ​Yeah. Yeah, I know. It really is. And I'm realizing it sounds a little like
gross that I would teach that to my kids. But I do feel like it's like for me that's just a real life
skill. You know, I think and and as a freelancer, my entire livelihood depends on it. So I
guess I might overvalue it, like compared to a normal person, you know, but I think that
that I took really seriously. And then all of that real nuts and bolts chores stuff I find hard to
teach because it's not all super rewarding. Like teaching someone to cook is rewarding
because it's fun to make something to eat. It's fun to serve people, something to eat. It's
you feel pride. You feel this and that and some of the gunt-y chores stuff. It's like the
vacuum is really loud and, you know, you can sell it by being like, look at all this stuff in
that canister. You know, there's ways to, like, engage interest around it or like, look how
clean you take a picture the rug before you start and then you can compare and oh my
God, it was so dirty. And but that stuff's not inherently rewarding in the same way. And so
it's harder to teach and it's harder to kind of engage kids around it.

Alice ​Yeah. How did you figure out what to include in the book? You must have had other
categories that you didn't put in here.

Catherine Newman ​How to roll a doobie. Yeah.

Alice ​I can't believe you just said doobie.

Catherine Newman ​With my mom shirt on..."Doobie." Yeah. It's funny. Every now and
then, there's something where we're like "ah we should have included that." But it
happened fairly organically. I would say that that there's a last chapter that's like I think we
call it sort of General Life Skills. I can't even remember what it's called. And it's sort of the
catchall for everything that didn't fit in the other chapters that it's like, you know, "how to
screw in a light bulb" it's kind of like the physical life skills, how to read a map. And there
were a few that could have gone there that we ditched. Like we thought about public
transportation, which is daunting, can be daunting for kids. But then it was so specific to

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the region, you know what I mean? We're like taking the New York subway is going to look
really different from like taking a rural bus somewhere.

Alice ​Right.

Catherine Newman ​So and the category is kind of evolved. I mean, originally, it was just
gonna be the chores. Then it was going to be like the chores and the thing I would loosely
call etiquette, even though I obviously don't mean in the, you know, entertaining the queen
type of etiquette. And then it just kind of expanded into other categories and that. And here
we are.

Alice ​Here we are.

Meghan ​And do you think your kids are people now?

Catherine Newman ​Yeah I do. I really think they are people. It's so funny every now and
then. I don't know if you guys have this, but every now and then I think about how the
evolution of them, you know, where like you used to go on a trip. And not only did you
need to pack your stuff and carry your stuff and pack the kids stuff and carry the kids' stuff,
you needed to, like, pack up the kids and carry them also. Like that crazy kind of Sherpa
feeling of just moving through the world with like a million pounds of luggage dangling off
you, you know, metaphorically or literally. And now the kids not only pack up their own
selves and their own belongings, but they like pack up the stuff we need from the fridge.
And, you know, just that way that they are like a total burden and then evolve into these
like helpful, sort of stunning humans in the house like really good housemates and
sometimes not the greatest house obviously. But I love that and I really appreciate it so
much. I especially like we flew to my brother's wedding a year ago. He got married in
Spain. And I just thought we were, like, waiting to go through customs. And I just
remembered going to a different wedding when they were babies and like changing
someone's diaper in the customs line and you know that. So there's just some incredible
magic for me about the evolution of that. And I really love it.

Alice ​Catherine, thank you so much for joining us. This was great.

Catherine Newman ​Thank you so much for having me. I love getting to talk to you guys.

Alice ​And now it's time for Upgrade of the Week. Every week we talk about that one tiny
thing making a big difference in our lives, Catherine you're making you laugh, Catherine
what's your upgrade this week?

Catherine Newman ​I have two. One is a new mask pattern new to me. And if you're
sewing your own masks, it is by far the best mask I've made. I'm showing it to you, but no
one else can see it. It's called the Ally Mask, and it stays on your face while you're talking.
It doesn't slide down off your nose and it keeps my glasses from fogging, which is huge.
So it's called the Ally mask pattern. I also love that it's called that because it suggests that
you can wear it to the next protest to go to which I have. And also, when you're voting,
which you will be doing. So Ally mask pattern and sliced golden Greek pepperoncini. This
is in the pickle aisle of your supermarket. And I put it in everything that otherwise people
would be like, "oh my God. Kale salad, you know, again, please." No, it's got the
pepperoncini in it. It's like spicy. A little bright, vinegary. So good.

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 Air Date: 7/20/20

Alice ​I love Pepperoncini.

Catherine Newman ​Don't you?

Alice ​It's like my favorite thing. Love it.

Catherine Newman ​Tuna salad. Like in anything. It's so good.

Alice ​Yeah.

Catherine Newman ​Try it in a kale salad, Alice. I'm telling you.

Alice ​Yeah?

Catherine Newman ​Sample some of the juice.

Alice ​Amazing. Put that in a martini.

Catherine Newman ​Oh my. But really. But actually.

Alice ​Yeah. Megan, what's your upgrade?

Meghan ​Okay, my upgrade is something that I didn't know existed until a few weeks ago,
and it's a bike trainer stand, which is this little thing that sits on the floor and you put your
actual bicycle into it, you lock it in and then you can ride indoors. So it's kind of like having,
you know, your own big piece of workout equipment, except you didn't buy a whole other
piece of work. So I'm figuring when the second wave hits, I've got this now, it just arrived. I
haven't tried it out yet, but I know I'm going to love it. We're gonna put it together. And then
when the next wave of the virus hits, I will be biking indoors.

Catherine Newman ​Oh my god that's so awesome.

Alice ​That's very cool.

Meghan ​Yeah. And they have all different sizes and they're so, you know, they get more
expensive depending on, you know, how fancy you might get with it or how much you want
to make sure that it doesn't make a ton of noise. But I went kind of middle of the road.

Catherine Newman ​Where would the noise come from? From the gears?

Meghan ​From the whatever is...as you're pedaling. There's like moto-whatever that is in
there that. Yeah. Real technical explanation.

Alice ​I just hope it doesn't fail you. And all of a sudden you're like riding through your
home and you can't stop. That's what I'm picturing, down the stairs.

Meghan ​Luckily, my house is pretty small, I'm not gonna get too far.

Catherine Newman ​We won't have to send it to America's Funniest Home Videos.

Meghan ​My son would love it if you did. And Alice, what is your upgrade?

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 Air Date: 7/20/20

Alice ​I am a big fan of baths and our bathtub sucks. One of the things that sucks about it
is that it's got this as every bathtub has its overflow drain, that in ours is is too low and it
just you end up with, like lying there naked and like a like a shallow pond of your own
juices it's just hard.

Catherine Newman ​With your belly sticking out of the water.

Alice ​Totally.

Catherine Newman ​That happens to me too, and I'm like, this is not good.

Alice ​No it's terrible. So I have been wanting to take a bath because I am not sleeping
through the night and because COVID. Because pandemic. And I'm trying to find new
ways and I keep reading like taking a warm bath helps you sleep at night. But does lying in
a shallow puddle make you sleep? I don't know. Anyway, it turns out you can buy a cover
for these things because of course you can. It costs eight dollars. The piece of plastic
suction it, suction-cup it over the overflow drain. Like magic. It works. I didn't think it's
going to work. Worked perfectly. I took an actual bath the other night. It was great.

Catherine Newman ​Oh, my God. I feel like both of your things are disasters in the
making. Your thing I want to be like, "There's a reason for the overflow drain..."

Alice ​I imagine leaving water running and falling asleep. I just drift off. It's great.

Catherine Newman ​That sounds awesome. I'm going to get one too. I use a washcloth,
but it's really bad. It doesn't really work.

Alice ​This really works. I mean, and a lot of the reviews are saying it didn't work. And I
don't know what these people were doing wrong. But it works perfectly. These people are
idiots.

Meghan ​Maybe just one time. It's not going to work next time.

Alice ​Listen.

Catherine Newman ​They might have been asking too much of their overflowed drain
protector.

Alice ​It's an eight dollar piece of plastic. It's a is probably. To be fair. A 20 cent piece of
plastic, but, worth it. Anyway, thank you so much for joining us again.

Catherine Newman ​Thank you so much for having me. I loved talking to you guys.

Alice ​And that's our show, The Upgrade is produced by Micaela Heck and mixed by Brad
Fisher.

Meghan ​Please rate us on Apple Podcasts and leave us to review, too. It really, really
helps other people to find the show. And, you know, you want to share the show. You can
also reach us by calling us at three, four, seven, six eight seven eight one zero nine. And
leaving us a voicemail or us at upgrade at Lifehacker dot com.

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 Air Date: 7/20/20

Alice ​You can also find us on Twitter, at Lifehacker. On Instagram, at Lifehacker dot com.
All one word. And on Facebook at Facebook dot com slash Lifehacker. Sign Up for
Lifehacker's daily newsletter full of tips and tricks and hacks at Lifehacker dot com slash
newsletter. And you can find show notes for this and every episode of The Upgrade at
Lifehacker dot com slash the show.

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