GRE Supplement/Addendum/Starrett

In re: ATF position on pistol grip 'shotguns' creates new danger

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/atf-position-on-pistol-grip-shotguns-creates-new-
danger

From Kevin Starrett/Oregon Firearms Federation:

David,

In March of this year, I contacted atf with some questions about shotguns.  The following letter was sent
to them on March 31st about 6 months after they responded to an email with the same questions saying
they would not respond to emails and I had to write a letter. They have never responded to this letter.

This all started when I saw a short barrel shotgun at a gun show made by Serbu.  Because it started life
as  what you and I would call a pistol grip shotgun, when it was shortened it was now considered “any
other weapon” and could be transferred for $5.00. When I called ATF (in Idaho, no one answered in
Oregon) they had never heard of this gun and were amazed and confused when I pointed them to
Serbu’s website so they could see it.  I have no idea what the answers to the following questions are.

Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

ATF
244 Needy Road
Martinsburg, WV 25405

Dear Sirs,

I am writing to clarify some definitions concerning firearms.

You have a document that discuss pistol grip shotguns.  Because they don't meet the definition for
"shotguns" they are not allowed to be sold to persons under 21 nor are they allowed to be sold across
state lines.

As such I have a number of questions:

Your newsletter (attached) states that these firearms should be listed on 4473's as "pistol grip firearms."

1)Is there anywhere (in statute, or regulations) a minimum barrel length for a "pistol grip firearm?

2) Can a person under 21 purchase a shotgun with a stock, if included, but not attached, is a pistol grip?
3) If a person under 21 MAY purchase a stocked shotgun that includes a pistol grip, may they attach it
legally?

4) May a person under 21 POSSESS a shotgun with a pistol grip? (For example if given to them by a
parent?)

5) Some companies now make rifled barrels for shotguns. These are typically used for slugs for hunting. 
If a shotgun has a rifled barrel, is it still considered a "shotgun" or is it now a rifle? If it is a “rifle” may it
exceed 50 caliber?

6) If it is now considered a rifle, does the 16 inch minimum barrel length apply or does the 18 inch
shotgun barrel rule apply?

7) If a shotgun comes from the factory with a pistol grip, and is hence not considered a "shotgun"
anymore, is it legal to put a rifled barrel on it?

8) If it is legal, what type of firearm is that now considered in the eyes of the ATF? Is it a rifle, or is it a
"pistol grip firearm?"

9) What is the difference between a "pistol grip firearm" and a "pistol?"

10) If a person shortened the barrel on a "pistol grip firearm" to less than 18" and that firearm had a
rifled barrel, what would that be considered?

11) Assuming the firearm was pump action, but had no forward grip, would it now be a pistol? If so,
would barrel length minimums apply and what would they be? (Shotguns with shortened barrels are
"short barrel shotguns" and require a $200.00 transfer tax to be legal. But if they come from the factory
with pistol grips and are shortened, they are considered "any other weapon" and require a $5.00
transfer tax.)

Thank you for taking the time to clarify this for me.

Kevin Starrett
Director

A source who requested anonymity responds:

here's my take on Kevin Starrett's questions11/17/10

I'm gonna try to make myself useful as well as ornamental for a while tonight. 
Below is my best take on Kevin Starrett's questions, based on years of studying
these issues.  Some of them I have no idea; don't take my interpretations as legal
advice, as I am not an attorney and I cannot give legal advice to anybody.  I do
think there are people in ATF who are stupid enough not to understand what ATF
just did, with the November 2009 FFL Newsletter and the letter to Len.

1)Is there anywhere (in statute, or regulations) a minimum barrel length for a "pistol grip
firearm?
 
Not that I know of.  Since ATF created the term "Pistol Grip Firearm," by definition
there would not be a minimum barrel length other than one specified by ATF.  So
far ATF has not specified a minimum barrel length.  Keep in mind the fact that
ATF does not regard a "Pistol Grip Firearm" as a "shotgun," means that statutes or
regulations that apply to a "shotgun" do not apply to a "Pistol Grip Firearm."

2) Can a person under 21 purchase a shotgun with a stock, if included, but not attached, is a
pistol grip?
 
Yes.  I see nothing to prohibit that.  Whether or not a pistol grip is included seems
irrelevant, since it is commonly available as a part or aftermarket item.  What is
being sold is a "shotgun" as defined.

3) If a person under 21 MAY purchase a stocked shotgun that includes a pistol grip, may they
attach it legally?
 
I don't know.  Just because a person under 21 may be prohibited from purchasing
a handgun, he or she may not necessarily be prohibited from possessing it, which
is where this question seems to lead.  Possession could be conditioned on the
same rules that apply to possession of handguns by persons under age 21.

4) May a person under 21 POSSESS a shotgun with a pistol grip? (For example if given to them
by a parent?)
 
I don't know.  Just because a person under 21 may be prohibited from purchasing
a handgun, he or she may not necessarily be prohibited from possessing it, which
is where this question seems to lead.  Possession could be conditioned on the
same rules that apply to possession of handguns by persons under age 21.

5) Some companies now make rifled barrels for shotguns. These are typically used for slugs for
hunting.  If a shotgun has a rifled barrel, is it still considered a "shotgun" or is it now a rifle? If
it is a “rifle” may it exceed 50 caliber?
 
This is a technical humdinger of a question.  I think a shotgun with a rifled barrel
is still considered a "shotgun" because it is designed to fire shotgun ammunition,
but if the firearm is intended for use as a rifle, as it would be using a .50 caliber
slug -- an attorney needs to sort this one out.  The technical issues are potentially
daunting.  But if it is a "rifle" it cannot exceed .50 caliber without becoming a
Destructive Device.  This one is going to depend on whether the Attorney General
decides whether or not the firearm is a "shotgun" that is paricularly suitable for
sporting purposes.

6) If it is now considered a rifle, does the 16 inch minimum barrel length apply or does the 18
inch shotgun barrel rule apply?
 
If it is ruled or considered a rifle, the 16-inch minimum barrel length and 26-inch
overall lengths would apply and it would be a Title I firearm.

7) If a shotgun comes from the factory with a pistol grip, and is hence not considered a
"shotgun" anymore, is it legal to put a rifled barrel on it?
 
This is a bitch of a question, because neither firearm may be legal anymore if the
bore diameter exceeds 1/2".  Rifled barrel or smooth bore barrel alike, a "Pistol
Grip Firearm" with a bore diameter exceeding 1/2" is a Destructive Device.  That
trumps lesser classifications like pistol or AOW.  Taken at face value under
statutory language, all such firearms are Destructive Devices.
 
As you point out, under ATF's most recent ruling or whatever you call it, a shotgun
that comes from the factory with a pistol grip is not considered a "shotgun."  If you
put a rifled barrel on it, I don't think that makes it a "rifle" because it is
not designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder.  So it becomes part of
this new bizarre hybrid thing such that if it has a bore diameter exceeding 1/2" it
is a Destructive Device regardless of whether the barrel is rifled or not.
 
What is going to confuse the shit out of people is the AOW issue; however, again,
the statute is clear --- bore diameter exceeding 1/2" and it is a Destructive
Device.  I think the only "shotgun" that has any hope of being deemed legal is the .
410; and it would have to be at least 26" in overall length.  The barrel length,
according to ATF's latest letter on this topic, isn't relevant.  What is relevant is if
the firearm is deemed "concealable" on a person.
 
A "pistol" is designed to be held with one hand when fired and with a grip that is at
an angle to the bore.  Any "pistol" with a bore diameter exceeding 1/2" is a
Destructive Device.
 
ATF has long held that a forward grip attached to a pistol turns the pistol into an
AOW because it is no longer intended to be held in one hand when fired. 
8) If it is legal, what type of firearm is that now considered in the eyes of the ATF? Is it a rifle,
or is it a "pistol grip firearm?"
 
I don't believe it is legal unless the bore diameter is 1/2" or less.

9) What is the difference between a "pistol grip firearm" and a "pistol?"

 
Quoting from the November 2009 FFL Newsletter:
 

Under the GCA, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29)(A), handgun means “a firearm which has a short
stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.”

Certain commercially produced firearms do not fall within the definition of shotgun under
the GCA even though they utilize a shotgun shell for ammunition. For example, firearms
that come equipped with a pistol grip in place of the buttstock are not shotguns as defined
by the GCA.  A firearm with a pistol grip in lieu of the shoulder stock is not designed to be
fired from the shoulder and, therefore, is not a shotgun.

 
My guess: ATF would not regard a "Pistol Grip Firearm" as a "pistol" because it is
designed to be held with two hands when fired.  It can't be an AOW if the bore
diameter exceeds 1/2".

10) If a person shortened the barrel on a "pistol grip firearm" to less than 18" and that firearm
had a rifled barrel, what would that be considered?
 
Depending on the bore diameter, it would be an AOW or a Destructive Device.  If
the bore diameter did not exceed 1/2" it would be an AOW; if it exceeds 1/2" it is
a Destructive Device.

11) Assuming the firearm was pump action, but had no forward grip, would it now be a pistol? If
so, would barrel length minimums apply and what would they be? (Shotguns with shortened
barrels are "short barrel shotguns" and require a $200.00 transfer tax to be legal. But if they
come from the factory with pistol grips and are shortened, they are considered "any other
weapon" and require a $5.00 transfer tax.)
 
It would only be a pistol if is is "a firearm which has a short stock and is designed
to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.”  A pistol has no minimum barrel
length to my knowlege, but the shortest I've seen is 2" or so.
 
A shotgun is only a "short-barreled shotgun" if it was originally manufactured with
a shoulder stock, and the barrels shortened or replaced with shorter barrels.
 
ATF's November 2009 FFL Newsletter has thrown the AOW definition application
into legal turmoil, as previously explained.  I doubt that ATF's classifications of
some firearms as AOWs would pass muster in Federal District Court now.