I

E X C E R P T S F R O M I N T E R V I E W W I T H C H R I S H A N I , CHIEF O F S T A F F , U M K H O N T O
W E SIZWE (SPEAR O F T H E N A T I O N ) , T H E A F R I C A N N A T I O N A L C O N G R E S S , A T
A P R E S S C O N F E R E N C E IN SAN F R A N C I S C O , A P R I L 28, 1991

The f o l l o w i n g i n t e r v i e w was t a p e d A p r i l 28, 1991, d u r i n g Chris

Hani's v i s i t to the Bay A r e a . B e f o r e l e a v i n g for New York to
a p p e a r on n a t i o n a l public radio's M c N e i l Lehrer News Hour, Mr. Hani
addressed a large audience g a t h e r e d in his honor at the H y a t t
R e g e n c y E m b a r c a d e r o in San Francisco, sponsored by People's W e e k l y
World, and a youthful crowd at San Francisco State University,
among other a p p e a r a n c e s w h e r e i n he r e s p o n d e d to questions r e g a r d i n g
the current s i t u a t i o n in South A f r i c a .

(Chris Hani's responses are in bold t y p e ; questions represent

reporters from v a r i o u s m e d i a including The S. F. Chronicle and
K P O O , a local Black r a d i o s t a t i o n )

"...Let me just ask you a b o u t this l e t t e r which I understand has

c r e a t e d a bit of c o n t r o v e r s y in South Africa... t h e r e was this
m a i n l i n e d e a d l i n e and you had called for the r e s i g n a t i o n of the two
ministers and several o t h e r things. Where does t h a t stand now...?

Well, actually, as we indicated, that letter, or rather the spirit

of that l e t t e r is to save n e g o t i a t i o n s . There's a lot of violence
in the c o u n t r y , and the ANC is convinced that the government has
not d e m o n s t r a t e d any Mill to stop the violence. And that's why
there was this decision taken after a serious m e e t i n g of the
N a t i o n a l E x e c u t i v e C o m m i t t e e to w r i t e to the South A f r i c a n
Government to once more try to create conditions where we can talk
seriously about...a new constitution in our country. ...[T]hey
h a v e not yet responded...except p u b l i c l y Making statements. We
still expect t h e m to respond in a proper m a n n e r because we w r o t e
to them an open letter. They can write an open l e t t e r to us if
they want to do that, because we want to sit down w i t h them and
hammer out agreements which will save the processes of
negotiations. For us,if they don't respond satisfactorily, there
is no other alternative but to walk out of the talks, because we
cannot talk w i t h a g o v e r n m e n t that is not negotiating in good
f a i t h , that is perceived by us to be 'creating conditions of
destabilizing the A N C .

Can you comment on the Conference of P a t r i o t i c Forces,and

specifically, like the relationship between the ANC and the PAC
(Pan African Congress)?

A c t u a l l y , we are all encouraged by the d e v e l o p m e n t s taking place

on the issue of u n i t y of l i b e r a t i o n m o v e m e n t s in our country. I
think b o t h the ANC and the PAC h a v e recognized that in this crucial
m o m e n t of pushing the [inaudible] of our people, we need to work
t o g e t h e r , to sit down t o g e t h e r and work c o m m o n strategies. This
does not m e a n that there are no d i f f e r e n c e s b e t w e e n the ANC and the
PAC. But we h a v e concerned ourselves w i t h those things which are
c o m m o n between the two organizations. The Meeting in Harare
[Zimbabwe] was a r e m a r k a b l e a c h i e v e m e n t . And we are going,
c e r t a i n l y , to s t r e n g t h e n w h a t we gained in Harare at another
m e e t i n g within S o u t h Africa, h o p e f u l l y in August. But that is not
the end of our objective. We need to pull in other g r o u p s like
AZAPO [The Azania Peoples Organization], like homeland
organizations, and leaders who h a v e openly coBBitted t h e m s e l v e s to
a nonracial south Africa.

Dust to come back to the issue of negotiations. . . to what e x t e n t are

n e g o t i a t i o n s threatened?...

Well, 1 think the South African regime once more has got a serious
r e s p o n s i b i l i t y to be seen by the p e o p l e of South A f r i c a n to be
concerned about a p e a c e f u l negotiated s e t t l e m e n t . Really, t h e y are
the de facto g o v e r n m e n t ; they've got the instruments of power; they
control the police and the security. Hence, m o r e than e v e r y b o d y
else, they should address this q u e s t i o n of the violence which is
affecting us, and affecting our efforts to build the ANC. And we
only hope that they are not taking our d e m a n d s as m e r e bluff. We
need to talk to one another so that we can r e d u c e the b l o o d l e t t i n g
which has dominated the political situation in our country. We are
the p e o p l e who know the extent of the violence because we stay in
the townships. So it's i m p o r t a n t for the regime to listen to our
feelings, because it is the ANC which initiated negotiations; it
is not the South African g o v e r n m e n t . Of course, they've been
t r y i n g to r e c i p r o c a t e in their own way. And we still hope...that
de Klerk will see reason and show clear signs t h a t he is p r e p a r e d
to create a climate c o n d u c i v e to negotiations.

One of the ways this l e t t e r has been portrayed in the South African
press, also in the press in this c o u n t r y , is a sign t h a t the
hardliners...or the more m i l i t a n t wing of the ANC ...has won out.
I'm sure y o u ' v e seen those articles; and you, of course,... are
associated... w i t h t h a t t e n d e n c y . How do you respond to t h a t
interpretation?

U n f o r t u n a t e l y , o n l y outsiders — the South African press, the

regime, and p e o p l e even here who are v i c t i m s of South African
p r o p a g a n d a — see divisions b e t w e e n the so—called hardliners and
moderates. Certainly, within the ANC leadership, we don't see one
another as representing d i f f e r e n t trends. We see ourselves as
people c o m m i t t e d to the policies of the ANC. The ANC has got a
policy. That policy which includes or embraces the strategies of
the Bovenent binds all of us; it guides all of us. So all of us
carry out the decisions of the ANC as best we can. Certainly,
there's no struggle for power in the ANC...that is not the
t r a d i t i o n of the A N C . But you see the press and the r e g i m e of
South A f r i c a want to influence the June conference. They want to
i n t r o d u c e an u n h e a l t h y atmosphere, so that there should be a
p e r c e p t i o n on the part of the p e o p l e , the i n t e r n a t i o n a l
community... that there's a b a t t l e for this position...We don't run
a struggle on the basis of positions. If you are elected
d e m o c r a t i c a l l y , then you are elected and you do your best to
c o n t r i b u t e . Positions...they are a responsibility. Our lives are
t h r e a t e n e d ; some e l e m e n t s in the right wing want to kill us. So
there is nothing to gain by being a member of the National
E x e c u t i v e Committee. For me, I would like a situation where I
could rest and be w i t h my family. But then, 1 know I have not
c o m p l e t e d the task of c o n t r i b u t i n g to the struggle. So I m e a n that
is a game they want to play...but it does not reflect the s i t u a t i o n
inside the A N C . There are no tensions inside the ANC.... there's
an ongoing discussion w i t h i n the ANC about relationships w i t h the
g o v e r n m e n t , the role of negotiations, and so on...Well, that is an
ongoing process.... There are still working groups discussing the
release of political prisoners, the return of exiles. These
working groups which comprise members of the ANC and
r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s of the r e g i m e are taking place...we raise our fears
about the pace of the release of people; we raise our fears about
the conduct of some police officers in certain areas....So there
is ongoing contact and discussions with the Pretoria regime.
I want to ask y o u , how does the de Klerk g o v e r n m e n t p l a y upon
various nationalities — like there are Indians over there; there
are different Asians. You m e n t i o n e d Gatcha B u t h e l e z i .
You see the ANC is committed to nonracialism. The world tries to
portray the ANC as an organization for Africans. That's not the
way the ANC is. The basic feature of the ANC is nonracial
m e m b e r s h i p , and this is reflected at all levels. At the top, we
h a v e comrades of Indian origin who are p l a y i n g an important part
in our struggle... these are leaders of our people and they are
loved by all freedom lovers, whether t h e y are African people of
m i x e d race or they are Asians. We go out of our way to build
branches of the ANC everywhere. There .are branches of the ANC
where people of Asian origin live, in places where p e o p l e of m i x e d
race live, in places where Africans live, because we are building
nonracialism in our country — because South African is a country
that belongs to all the people of South Africa whether t h e y are
Black or W h i t e .

It's my u n d e r s t a n d i n g there's great respect for you among youth and

y o u t h m o v e m e n t s in South Africa. Can you comment on the state of
where the youth are at in South Africa?
Well, I think that is not a correct position. I don't think that
p e o p l e l o v e me as an i n d i v i d u a l . I think if t h e y show some
affection, t h e y are showing affection and love for the A N C . They
certainly l o v e M a n d e l a ; they get wild when t h e y see Mandela. But
I think t h e y love all the leaders of the ANC who in different ways
h a v e contributed towards some partial v i c t o r i e s that we h a v e scored
so far. Well, p r o b a b l y , with me, again, t h e y relate to me because
I'm the Chief of Staff of the a r m y . It's the y o u t h that are
f i g h t i n g . The brunt of the a r m e d struggle is carried out by y o u n g
people, and they see me and other commanders of MK...as
representing a spirit of Militancy, a spirit of engaging the
regime. I think that's about all.

...in terms of the post-apartheid South A f r i c a , the issue of

land...how is the ANC going to deal w i t h t h a t ?

I want to b e g i n by saying, when the g o v e r n m e n t took away our land

and decided to give us only 133 in the so-called native reserves,
it was exactly the situation that h a p p e n e d with the Indian
A m e r i c a n s in this country. Push the indigenous to the most barren
areas of the country, and take all the fertile land and give it to
the colonialists. Now the central issue in our country is also
land. We can't say we are free if there is no distribution of that
land so that as m u c h as possible the Blacks get the same land
rights as the Whites. It will mean that the state — a new South
African democratic state must intervene because the land is in the
hands of the Whites, 87% of the land. We must i n t e r v e n e and say
that no i n d i v i d u a l is going to be allowed to own 3,000 hectares or
10,000 hectares when other people h a v e no land rights. We h a v e got
to h a v e a ceiling. That does not m e a n we are going to be taking
all the land from the Whites. They are entitled to some land, and
the land must be so d i v i d e d that the criterion is not color. And
we must correct t h a t injustice where force was used to take away
the land and to g i v e it to the Minority [Whites] at a very cheap
price. The state must start a f f i r m a t i v e action; it must get
resources to help people not only to possess land, but to h a v e
seed, fertilizer and e q u i p m e n t so that they can c u l t i v a t e that land
and be able to feed themselves.

You know the homelands in South Africa and the American Indian
reservations are one and the same. The man came from the apartheid
government to the United States to look at the reservation s y s t e m ,
so they could r e p e a t it in South Africa....And we as American
Indians, you know, our land base has been reduced just like our
population. Our p o p u l a t i o n has been reduced to less than one
percent of all this nation, and so has our land base. And for
American Indians, we too [take the] stand that we need our land
returned to us. And we're not asking for all of it; we're asking
for land to live like human beings to take care of our
fami lies....We're not asking for m i l l i o n s and m i l l i o n s of acres;
we're just asking for e n t i t l e m e n t back to each tribe....The e a r t h ,
the l a n d , was n e v e r to be d i v i d e d , or no one could own it, you
know. It b e l o n g e d to all of us. And only u n t i l the world can
return to that kind of t h i n k i n g can things be different....

...about f i g h t i n g among Blacks in South Africa...

Well, what is the ANC doing about fights amongst Black South
Africa? I think this is an e x a g g e r a t e d issue. There's c e r t a i n l y
no fighting among Black South Africans. It is fighting that is
encouraged by the racist r e g i m e by selecting certain groups, arming
them and equipping t h e m , and c o m m a n d i n g and instructing then to
a t t a c k Black communities. We have seen this thing in Angola and
Mozambique — where some e l e m e n t s s u p p o r t e d by i m p e r i a l i s m , by
Western g o v e r n m e n t s , by racist South Africa, were actually used to
d e s t a b i l i z e g o v e r n m e n t s and administrations. What we are seeing
in South Africa is a process of destabilization started and
e n c o u r a g e d by the ruling class in our country....what we are doing
is of course to build unity amongst our people. I have already
answered this q u e s t i o n about having m e e t i n g s with the PAC, w i t h
AZAPO, to build a united front of all anti-apartheid m o v e m e n t s .
We are bringing in h o m e l a n d s g o v e r n m e n t s and organizations and
i n d i v i d u a l s to s t r e n g t h e n this unity, and to isolate that small
group which is being used by the regime. We must also accept that
there are Blacks who are anti-liberation m o v e m e n t , a few of them,
who h a v e benefited fro* apartheid in the past because they were
used as boss boys. They were given certain positions to help
apartheid work. Those Blacks are those collaborators, counselors,
leaders of c o l l a b o r a t i o n m o v e m e n t s , leaders of Bantustans...They
benefited though they are Black, and worked together with the South
A f r i c a n g o v e r n m e n t , [like Catena Buthelezi] We shall continue
h a v i n g Black c o l l a b o r a t o r s until we h a v e freedom. And even after
freedom, there will be those Blacks who will still be holding the
skirt of the Minority. And we can't help it. We mustn't feel that
every Black Ban will take a position in the trench and fight
against a p a r t h e i d . Some of t h e m are interested in their own
well-being, selfishly, and they are not thinking about the majority
of Black p e o p l e . We shall certainly h a v e -those Blacks for q u i t e
some time.
[question re returning p o l i t i c a l prisoners and exiles)

Well, safety is relative. I went back to South A f r i c a though it

is not safe. They oust come back into the country and continue
with the struggle. There will be no safety until apartheid is
overthrown. A n y b o d y who thinks about safety is not serious about
the struggle. The s t r u g g l e is about sacrifices. Let those who are
outside use the opening, the indemnity to come in, in order to
continue the struggle for freedom.

R e g a r d i n g sanctions and w h a t the U.S. G o v e r n m e n t is about to do

[has now already done]...

...Of course they say if de Klerk releases all political prisoners,

allow exiles to return, and if some laws which they consider
pillars of apartheid are repealed...then de Klerk should be
rewarded by lifting some sanctions. Well, our position is quite
clear. In the first place, we have never accepted that de Klerk
should be [rewarded] for making some declarations, because the main
problem in South Africa is apartheid. Sanctions should remain as
long as apartheid is still in place. And as long as the process
of constitutional discussion has not taken place, [and until] there
is an interim government — because only an interim government will
guarantee that the whole process is irreversible. You can't allow
the destiny of millions of people to be shaped by a government
which has no authority from them, no mandate from them. ...this
administration must really try to listen to the victims of
apartheid, those of us who are in the struggle to remove apartheid.
If apartheid today is in a crisis and de Klerk is talking about
change, it is because of people like Mandela and the leaders of the
ANC, and those who are in exile, people like [Oliver] Tambo
...people who have played this important role, central role, really
should be consulted.... But we say in the ANC, in the PAC, in the
Trade Union Movement, this is not the time to lift sanctions...

What kind of response did you g e t . . . t h a t a r g u m e n t a p p a r e n t l y fell

on deaf ears in Europe...

I'm not optimistic. I've got the feeling, and I'm subject to being
corrected, that they are determined not to shift the goal posts.
That is the most overused phrase at the White House and the State
Department.

April 30 is the d e a d l i n e set by the ANC to release all p o l i t i c a l

prisoners and r e p a t r i a t e exiles. Is there a chance t h a t the
suspension of the armed s t r u g g l e may be g i v e n up if the g o v e r n m e n t
doesn't c o m p l y with this? ..

Well, the decision to resume the armed struggle lies with the ANC
leadership and the ANC membership. I think the ANC after April 30
will call some meeting...to discuss what to do if the conditions
as stipulated at this conference are not met.

...In light of what has happened in Europe which has lifted some
parts of the sanetions...what is the response of the non-aligned
movement ?
I think there's some slight confusion everywhere...a lack of a
deeper understanding of what is h a p p e n i n g in South Africa on the
part of the i n t e r n a t i o n a l community and on the part of some
African states. I think what is needed is for us once m o r e as we
used to do to explain ourselves rather more aggressively on this
issue of sanctions. We must go to the O.A.U., the F r o n t l i n e
States, to the non-aligned countries...! mean we appreciate the
sacrifices of Frontline States and other African countries; we
a p p r e c i a t e their economic woes. And I can tell you South Africa
is not going to solve their e c o n o m i c woes, because South Africa
has got its own serious economic problems.... So I think this
e u p h o r i a that a new South Africa would i m m e d i a t e l y generate
economic prosperity in Africa...this euphoria should really be
dismissed. The A f r i c a n countries, for instance, h a v e sacrificed
in s u p p o r t i n g us; t h e y sacrificed for a d e m o c r a t i c South Africa,
and they must not talk of [lifting] sanctions when that d e m o c r a t i c
South Africa is really not around the corner.
I just w a n t to ask you about your general mood now in terms of the
process in South A f r i c a , the way it's presented there's a huge
crisis in the n e g o t i a t i n g process. Are you optimistic...?

I'm v e r y o p t i m i s t i c . And my o p t i m i s m is not based on what is

h a p p e n i n g to negotiations...! think negotiations are in trouble,
and unless the regime intervenes to create proper conditions for
negotiations...we are heading for a serious situation in our
country. And of course we are not helpless. We shall wage a
s t r u g g l e as we h a v e waged a struggle in the past. But ny o p t i m i s m
is based on the mood of the people...their confidence, their
m i l i t a n c y , and t h e i r i m p a t i e n c e with a p a r t h e i d . I think our p e o p l e
h a v e decided that we are g o i n g to d i s m a n t l e a p a r t h e i d . And I think
that is what causes o p t i m i s m . O p t i m i s m is based on the f i g h t i n g
m i l i t a n c e of the people. I think...it's really i m m a t e r i a l what
de Klerk does ultimately. The people will have a democratic South
Africa...and no armed force whatsoever can stop this process. I
think we h a v e reached a s i t u a t i o n in South Africa where we are no
longer prepared to l i v e under a p a r t h e i d , and we are ready to m a k e
w h a t e v e r sacrifices to get that d e m o c r a t i c South Africa.

And if the sanctions are lifted...and they p r o b a b l y w i l l

be . . . concretely, will that set back the m o v e m e n t ?

No, not at all. It will d e m o r a l i z e for a short time, because it's

nice when you're fighting those guys to say, yeah, !'• fighting,
the world is behind me. That feeling is good. But it's not going
to affect our d e t e r m i n a t i o n to fight. And I think this question
of lifting sanctions is based on m i s c a l c u l a t i o n s . What business
person in his right mind is going to invest in a country where we
are out in the street s t r i k i n g , w h e r e we are m a r c h i n g , and where
we are doing everything to undermine apartheid? They won't invest.
Of course, t h e y will get their K r u g e r r a n d s , their iron ore...that's
what they want; they want those Minerals... t h e y ' r e concerned about
their economies, not about us.

In light of this...you t a l k about d e m o r a l i z a t i o n , t e m p o r a r y , if

sanctions are l i f t e d . W h a t a b o u t actions of the f o r m a l l y socialist
countries, as well as the Soviet Union; they're talking about
o p e n i n g relations with South African, and t h e y had some meetings
in Europe. Is t h i s h a v i n g any [affect]?

W e l l , t h e y are no longer socialist g o v e r n m e n t s ; t h e y ' v e been taken

over by right-wing groups.

What about the Soviet Union?

Well, I'm coming to the S o v i e t Union as well [laughter]. I think

r i g h t - w i n g g r o u p s in the former socialist countries — racist
groups in the true sense of the word. He h a v e seen them now, how
they are b e h a v i n g . You know, at the time of the Hungarian uprising
in 1956, I was still a v e r y young boy, Hungarians flocked to our
country running away from the so-called oppression in Hungary.
They became the worst racists in our country. That was repeated
by the Poles running away from Poland, by the Czechs and the
Slovaks...from 1968. So it was quite clear that in these societies
there were e l e m e n t s , powerful elements, who h a v e got racist
tendencies. And those right-wing groups in fact who should have
run [away] from South A f r i c a then but decided to r e m a i n , are in
power in this country and they are eager to set up links within the
r e g i m e . We have no links with them any longer. It's a serious
setback because w h a t e v e r h a p p e n e d in those countries — the GDR
[German D e m o c r a t i c R e p u b l i c or East Germany], for instance, was a
v e r y firm ally of the ANC in the s t r u g g l e for f r e e d o m and social
justice. The Soviet Union did a lot for our struggle, and we hope
that this process of pressures to the right...fail, because we need
a powerful, strong Soviet Union to counter. I think the weakness
of the Soviet Union has brought about a bad climate
internationally. Some of these countries h a v e become bully b o y s
in the world because there's no counter balancing force like the
Soviet Union...and we hope that the process that is eroding the
Soviet Union won't continue to the extent where the Soviet Union
becomes like H u n g a r y or Poland. And of course the Soviet Union has
agreed to accept a South A f r i c a n r e g i m e in Moscow. That reflects
a growing t e n d e n c y of a c c o m m o d a t i n g the regime....We are p r o t e s t i n g
to the S o v i e t Union, and we shall continue to tell them that this
is not the right thing to do, Soviet Comrades. Don't join in this
p o p u l a r b a n d w a g o n of l i f t i n g sanctions. ...de Klerk is g e t t i n g
international recognition which he does not have any recognition

8
in South Africa. We don't like him. Our people don't like him.
The world can decide to sleep with de Klerk in one bed. But we are
certainly not going to sleep together with de Klerk in South Africa
because he represents a p a r t h e i d .

J o e S i o v c h a s w r i t t e n a b o u t soine o f t h e m i s t a k e s m a d e i n E u r o p e a n
CoT.iTiLinis t p a r t i e s and S o c i a l i s t rr.c verier; t s . riov; has the S o u t h
A f r i c a n Co IT. rn u n 1st P a r t y [5ACP] been a b l e to m a i n t a i n t i e s a m o n g the
p e o p l e a n a to b e t h e v i t a l C o m m u n i s t p a r t y in t h e w o r l d ?

You see, we consider ourselves born-again Communists, [laughter]

We recognize the serious mistakes made in the Soviet Union and
other Socialist countries. And we feel that we should democratize
our party as much as possible. We as a party accept pluralism and
multi-partyism...if one day we are elected, it should be on the
basis of an electoral victory...we shall not use force to entrench
ourselves. . . . We are popular for a number of reasons: We have been
a fighting communist party; we have participated in all forms of
struggle — mass struggle, armed struggle....we accept the leading
role of the ANC. We don't dispute or contest the leadership of the
African National Congress. We don't...say how many positions
should we canvass in the ANC. That is not allowed in the Party.
We go to the Party and differ among ourselves; sometimes I differ
with Slovo on any number of issues when we are in the ANC
discussing ANC issues. No Party member is allowed to lobby. Even
at our recent meeting of the internal leadership group, we said
there is going to be an important conference of the ANC: let us
as Communists work hard to ensure that it succeeds... because the
ANC has a v i t a l role in bringing about national democracy in our
country.... Of course we are committed to socialism.... But at this
moment we say socialism in South Africa is not immediately on the
agenda. On the agenda is national democracy, strengthening of
democracy and redistribution of the wealth of our country. And
after that, we will consider what strategies now to push for a
socialist [state]; we are committed to socialism u l t i m a t e l y .

. . . A p p a r e n t l y , t h e r e ' s b e e n some d i s c u s s i o n a b o u t p e o p l e h o l d i n g
o f f i c e s in b o t h A N C a n o S A CP. How is t h a t d e b a t e ?

[laughs] I think we should debate everything in the Party, in

COSATU [Congress of South African Trade Unions], in the ANC.
People should discuss their concerns about comrades having many
positions. ...It's a question of efficiency ...We have got to
discuss this because the movement will stagnate if one i n d i v i d u a l
will hold as many positions as possible...

I ' m r e a l l y i n t e r e s t e u in t n e y o u t h of S o u t h A f r i c a . '«h a t kinc of

d e m o c r a t i c s t r u c t u r e s are they b u l l c i n e , and w h e t K i n d of
organizations are they s t a r t i n g to ouilo?
...The young people have played a central role in the waging of
struggle against the regime in Pretoria. The army, of which I'm
Chief of Staff, is principally made up of young people. So the
youth have made that contribution even in the armed struggle. But
also in the process of the general mobilization of the people, the
young people have played an equally important role. the African
National Congress knows very well that its future as a m o v e m e n t ,
and the future of a democratic South Africa rests with the youth.
That is why we have set up early this year the African National
Congress Youth League which is a vehicle for the mobilization of
our young people. Equally, we have given support and encouragement
to the formation of youth student organizations like the South
African National Student Congress, SAN5CO,...we are working very
closely with all these youth organizations... because we believe
there can never be a future if the youth is not included in our
discussions and the waging of a struggle for a democratic
transformation in our country.

Y o u t a l k e d a l i t t l e b i t i n y o u r speech y e s t e r d a y a b o u t d e v e l o p i n g
a d e m o c r a t i c c o n s t i t u t i o n ...how [do] you v i e w the current c o u r t
s y s t e m a n d how y o u ' r e y o i n g t o d e v e l o p a c o n s t i t u t i o n t h a t m e e t s
t h e needs of the p e o p l e ?

The current court system, the current judiciary, is racist and

undemocratic. We need to radically change the South African
judiciary. It must be the watch dog and defend the democratic
constitution. It should certainly be independent of the government
and of the executive; and it must be given powers to intervene in
situations where they see the violation of the constitution. In
other words, citizens should have the right to challenge the
government in the courts of the land where they feel the government
is a c t u a l l y attacking or violating the rights of the citizens. And
we think that in a future South Africa, in order to ensure that
democracy does not degenerate — because we've seen instances in
the world where democracies have degenerated — we must have an
institution made up of people who are not accountable to the
government, committed individuals who are knowledgeable in the
processes of jurisprudence. And these individuals must feel free
to challenge a government and even to step in and say this is
unconstitutional.

I'd l i k e to ask you a b o u t how you see G e o r g e Bush's new w o r l d o r d e r

as a f f e c t i n g t h e m o v e m e n t in S o u t h A f r i c a and your s t r u g g l e ?

Well, he speaks of a new world order, and for me, this sounds like
a slogan. A new world order can only exist when all of us tackle
the problems facing the majority of the people everywhere in the
world. And ordinary people want to have employment; they want

10
houses; they want a decent educational system; they want hospitals
and medical services; and they want to see a situation where
there's a visible distribution of wealth, so that we don't have
people who are extremely rich and people who are extremely poor.
For me, I would certainly go along w i t h a new world order if I see
...priority number one in the world is to ensure that nobody
starves, that everybody's got three mralc a day, [s]he's got
shelter, [s]he can send his[her] children to school without having
to pay e x o r b i t a n t fees, that [s]he can h a v e reasonable access —
without having to pay fees — to medical at tent ion.... those are
the basic things that a new world order should tackle. Certainly,
a new world order should spend less on arms and armaments. We
should have a situation, an atmosphere where every country feels
free to pursue policies which are in the interest of the
people.... There must be no big brother here and no small brother.
It must be a world order where we can discuss as equals without
anybody playing the role of a bully boy.

How is it g o i n g to be p o s s i b l e , .[in l i g h t of] the changes in the

b a l a n c t of t h e w o r l d -- b e i n g t h a t t h e S o v i e t U n i o n is [no l o n g e r ]
p l a y i n g tne rcie of t h e b a s t i o n of the l i b e r a t i o n m o v e m e n t s as it
has in t h e p a s t -- [to cjet to] t h a t new w o r l d order g i v e n the
change in the w o r l d , p a r t i c u l a r l y w h a t ' s happened in the latest
!Julf w a r , for e x a m p l e ?

Well, I think the peoples of the world have had a shocking

experience. We have seen the immense power of the United States
and its allies in using force to correct what they see as a wrong.
I think nobody should have a right in this world to decide what is
right and what is wrong. In my own view, the problems of the
Middle East should have been left to the Arabs...The Arab people
would have known how to deal with the situation. I think it was
wrong for Saddam Hussein to intervene in Kuwait, to annex Kuwait.
I think the Arabs should have been given every chance, supported
by the United Nations, to correct that situation. It would have
taken them some time. But I think it was wrong for a big power
like the U.S. to use modern weapons, because in the process
thousands of innocent people were killed. But going further than
that, I see personally a situation where all of us have got to
assert ourselves....Let us not leave decision-making only to the
governments; let us not be swayed by patriotic zeal..."I'm going
to be with my country whether it's right or wrong." There are
certain values we should uphold... values of peace and democracy.
War is devastating and war should be the last resort...we should
give every chance to a process of dialogue.
You know, it is regrettable... that the Soviet Union has got the
current problems, and that world socialism as a system has
collapsed because it played a role, definitely, of counter-

11

-.•-*• -_.'•• - . -
balancing. When the Soviet Union was there, it was always
difficult for the United States to dictate.... everybody is
saturating us with the problems and the setbacks and the disasters
of social ism.... the press is no longer focusing on the problems of
the ordinary people, problems of homeless people, problems of jobs.
Certainly in most countries, people are not even looking at the
problems of recession where retrenchment is the order of the day.
We are simply rejoicing that oh, the Soviet Union has collapsed.
I think we have got to put our act together, and we should organize
a counter-offensive to push for the improvement of the lives of
ordinary, working people; and for challenging the rights of
corporations to impose their decisions on us, to decide whether we
should have jobs or not. It is certainly now the time when we
should wake up to the realities of where we are on the defensive
as progressive and democratic forces, and say how do we ensure that
capitalism does not kick us around.

Y o u said y e s t e r d a y . . . t h a t s o c i a l i s m isn't o n t h u i m m e d i a t e agenda.

Vvhe;i w i l l it oe on t h e i m m e d i a t e a yen da?

Any revolution, especially national liberation revolution, when it

triumphs, has got to consolidate itself. Consolidation in our own
situation means that we must ensure that racism disappears in our
country, that we build a united people in a united country, that
we begin to attend to the problems of the legacies of apartheid -
- housing, education, medical facilities, etc. — once we have
consolidated that, the South African Communist Party which all
along has been educating our people on socialism, what socialism
is about....The ideal society is where there is no exploitation.
Now, as a party, once we have consolidated the independence of
South Africa and the freedom, we have got to map our road to
socialism. And every year we have congresses. At congresses, you
see, communists sit down and say this is what is happening in terms
of the state of national democracy. Now having consolidated
national democracy, how do we move forward to socialism. ...it is
very difficult to say when, because all these processes have got
to be reviewed from time to time; but certainly, gradually, we must
m o v e our society from domination by private enterprise. But we've
got to take to heart seriously all the problems the socialist
countries are confronted with, so that we don't repeat the
mistakes. We move toward socialism, which I still see as the only
hope for humanity, ensuring that the quality of life under
social ism... becomes better than life under capitalism. We can't
just preach good ideas when concretely... life is difficult for the
people. You know, socialism is worthless when it can't deliver the
goods to the people.

...aoout t n i s new w o r l d o r d e r , if the U.S. does h a v e a freer hand

n o w t o act u n i l a t e r a l l y w i t h . m i l i t a r y m e a n s , w h a t does t h i s m e a n

12
for South Africa specifically and Southern A f r i c a in general? What
do you t h i n k the Bush A d m i n i s t r a t i o n is l i k e l y to do in South
Africa?
Well, it's an alarming thing for any country to want to act
unilaterally, and we are alarmed because we have the resources
which are crucial to the economies of the Western countries. When
we achieve our freedom, we shall negotiate for better prices for
our raw materials. We think, for instance, we are getting a raw
deal out of our resources. For instance,... you guys are not going
to get our coal, magnesium, our gold, because you are not paying
us properly. Would it be right for the United States to send
marines to our country? Certainly not. And what I fear about this
unilateral intervention is that once more the armaments race, the
race to buy weapons is going to be stepped up, and this is not in
the interest of humanity. I think we must go toward disarmament,
because monies spent on weapons are some of the monies you need to
improve the living conditions of the people. I think the American
people have a very big role to play in trying to stop...this
country from intervening in the affairs of other people.

...I sense a real modesty, and you seem to want to credit the
people for all the gains m a d e in South A f r i c a , but I'm curious
about your indemnity...when you and. ..other returning A N C exiles
come into South A f r i c a . ..what's g o i n g to h a p p e n to you and o t h e r s ?

Well, what happens to me and to others, if the regime decides to

arrest us, we regard this as the normal price we've got to pay for
liberation. Certainly, the regime continues to detain our people,
and we cannot expect to escape detention, even ourselves. We are
certainly not going to be pleading with the regime to extend our
indemnities. I think we are entitled, all of us, to an uncondi-
tional indemnity. What we are going to be doing in South Africa
is actually to campaign for an overall and unconditional indemnity.

W i l l there be a. lot of d e b a t e w i t h i n the A N C and the o t h e r

liberation forces in South Africa over whether to continue the
suspension of the armed s t r u g g l e a f t e r A p r i l 3D?

I think at our conference in June, certainly there's going to be

a debate and a review of the suspension of armed struggle.
Delegates are going to be coming to that conference with their own
experiences of violence in their own communities; and they're going
to be asking questions — whether the suspension has been negative
or positive, whether actually we have gained as a movement from the
[inaudible] to have suspended the armed struggle. This issue will
be discussed, and I'm sure there will be a commission at that
conference on armed struggle. At the end of the day, the ANC will
have to be guided by decisions of conference.

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