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16320 N W 2ndAvenue
North Miami Beach, FL 33 169

File Number: MM- 109803

Task Number:

Tape NumberICD #:

Audio File Name:

Date Recorded:

- Time Recorded:

Language: Spanish

LS Michael E. Heggie

Operational Review: LA Veronika Eliakim

Alejandro Antonini AA Franklin Duran
Guillermo Ledezma GL Moises Maionica
Unknown Female UF Unknown Male

Italics Spoken in Foreign Languages
IA Inaudible
UI Unintelligible
PH Phonetic
[1 Background Conversation / Noise
SC SimuItaneous Conversation
ov Overlapping Voices
[RCI Recorded Message NO. 07-20999-Cr-Lenard

File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a -- .-



UM: The date is August 27Ih, 2007.
I The date is August 27Ih, 2007. Time is 6:49
Time is 6:49p.m. This is a p.m. This is a consensual recording between
consensual recording between Alejandro Antonini ...Franklin Duran and
Alejandro Antonini ...Franklin others. The consensual recording begins
Duran and others. The consensual now.
recording begins now.



AA: Estoy en diez minutos, joiste? I'll be there in ten minutes, you hear?


AA: Diez...diez, quince minutos. jokey? Ten ...ten, fifteen minutes. Okay?



UM: Sorry, had to go out again.
I Sorry, had to go out again.


UM: No. 1'11 be back shortly. IVo. I'll be back shortly.




File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a --


MM: iC6m0 estas, Alejandro? How are you, Alejandro?


AA: Bien, y itu? Fine, and you?


AA: Estas bien. You're fine.

FD: [UT] esa vaina? [UI] that thing?

AA: Bien chevere. ~ Q u Cmas? Really well. What's new?

FD: Ya lleg6 el abogado. The lawyer arrived already

MM: Esta en el baiio. He's in the restroom.

FD: ~ E s t aen el bafio? He's in the restroom?

AA: L Me siento aqui o alla? Shall I sit here or over there?

MM: Donde tu quieras. Wherever you want.

AA: [UI] pues. Pa' escucharte. [UI] then. To hear you.

MM: ~Descansasteun poquito? Did you rest a little?

AA: Bueno ... Well ...

FD: No te ladille todo el tiempo pa' que I didn't bother you the whole time to [UI]

AA: No me fastidiaste, es verdad. You didn't bother me, it's true. But ... [UI] how
Pero ... [UI] c6mo voy a dormir. am I going to sleep, if. ..if. .. [UI] so political ...
vale, si ...[ UI] tan politica ...

MM: Si. Mira, conoce a Guillermo Yes. Listen, meet Guillermo Ledezma.

- 2
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a -

AA: Mucho gusto. Antonini, jc6m0 Pleased to meet you. Antonini, how are you?

GL: Hola, mucho gusto. Hello, pleased to meet you.

FD: jC6rno te fie...? Primero que nada. How did you get on ...? First of all. How did
iC6m0 te f i e con tus abogados? you get on with your lawyers?

AA: Bien. Fine.

FD: jLes ...les diste el poder a ellos? Did ...did you give them the power of attorney?

AA: No. Porque fui a hablar con.. . No. Because 1 went to talk to ...

MM: Bueno. Mira, te hago un poquito ... Okay. Look. let me give you a little ...of the ...
del ...iQ
uieres que entremos en Do you want to get down to business or do you
materia o te queres re ...tomar algo... want to ...drink something ...

AA: No, no, no. No, no, no.

MM: ...o refrescarte, o...? ...or freshen up, or ...?

AA: Como quieras. As you like.

MM: Okey. Te ...te hago un poquito ... Okay. 1'11...I'll give you a little ...of Guillemo's
del ...el resumen de Guillemo. Ehh... background. IJhh... Guillermo is a...veteran...old
Guillermo es un de vieja guard attorney from ArgentinA, very... very
data la vieja guardia de renowned, very well connected. He ...has ...has
Argentina, muy.. .muy reconocido, performed in all public and private roles. He
muy conectado. El ...ha ...ha estado has ...a...very respected law office
en todas las funciones publicas y Argentina. And, uhh.. .his handicap...includes
privadas. Tiene ...un ...escritorio, un having been a judge and ...having ruled against
estudio muy respetado en ...en la the military junta in Argentina. That gives
materia alli en ...en Argentina. Y, him ...a measure of public credibility, uhrn ...a
ehh...tiene dentro de su ...handicap position ...uh, of respect ...within the ...the ...the
el haber sido juez y...haber Argentine community. Especially among those
sentenciado...contra la junta militar the media. Moreover, he's got a...
en ...en Argentina. Eso le da ...a nivel professional career and a track record ...You
File Number: MM- 109803
DateJTime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

de credibilidad ...mediitica, uhm ... saw his ...his resume.
una posici6n ...este, de respeto ...por
parte de ...del ...del colectivo ...
argentino. Sobre todo esa gente
de 10s medios. Ademas, tiene
una.. .camera y una trayectoria
profesional ...Tu viste su

M: Su curriculum. Si. His resume. Yes.

MM: Es intachable, jno? Este ...Yo te voy It's impeccable, right? Uh ...I'm going to let him
a dejar que el mas o menos te more or less explain your legal situation...there
explique cual es la situation legal in Argentina. What he thinks is the proper
tuya ...all8 en Argentina. Cual el Cree strategy to overcome and then ...we'll talk.
es la estrategia correcta para
resolver y entonces de una vez...

GL: Ehh. ..bueno, yo. ..quiero aclarar Uhh...well, I...want to clarify that ... [it] was
que... fueron puestos por 10s diarios placed there by the newspapers ...
solamente ...

AA: Correcto. Right.

GL: ...jno? Eh ...he juntado antes de ...right? Uh.. .before coming I gathered
venir en el Internet todo lo que everything that was available from the Internet,
habia, etcetera. Eh ... etc. Uh ...

FD : [UI] Carlitos, [SC] [UI] [UI] Carlitos, [SC] [UI]

GL: De no haber ... Had the ...


GL: ...prensa de por medio contra el not been in the middle, opposing the
gobierno, que hay varios medios government, since there are several members of
que estan en contra del gobierno, de the media that oppose the government, of
medios importantes en Argentina ... important media in Argentina ...this would have
esto hubiera terminado en lo que wound up the way it did.
File Number: MM-109803
Date~TimeRecorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a


AA: Claro. Sure.

GL: En una infraction aduanera. In a customs violation. Legally, this ...
Juridicarnente, esto...

AA: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

GL: ...esto es una charada. ...this is a charade.

AA: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

GL: Nada mas. Nothing else.

AA: Pero, ipor que tengo ...por que hay But why do I have ...because is there a warrant
una orden de...por que hay una for ...why is there a warrant for ...for...? I'm
orden de.. .de.. .? Yo no.. .no lo voy not ...I won't interrupt you. Excuse me.
a interrumpir. Disculpe.
GL: Si. Yes.

AA: Si. Yes.

MM: iTu quC tomas? What will you drink?

GL No, no. Eh, usted ... No, no. Uh, you ...

AA: tom0 ... Uhh...Itll drink...

GL: ...usted digame lo que quiere. tell me what you want.

AA: ...un agua con gas. No, no. Lo dejo ...sparkling water. No, no. 1'11 let you speak.
hablar. Disculpeme, que ... 10s Excuse me, that ... my nerves don't let me ...
nervios no me dejan...

GL: Lo que ...le quiero decir que What ...I want to that this what it was
esto lo que fue a1 principio. at the start.

AA: Uh-huh. Sparkling water, please. Uh-huh. Sparkling water, please.
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

UM: Sure.
I Sure.

GL : Una mera infraction a la ley. A mere infraction of the law.

AA: Okey. Okay.

MM: . Pero, fijate. El ...Para que But listen. The ...For there to be ...for the
haya ...para que la infraccion customs infraction to become contraband ...
aduanera se convierta en
contrabando.. .

AA: Uh-huh.

MM: ...hace falta ardid y engaiio. ...there must be a ruse and deception.

AA: Uh-huh.

MM: Y ardid y engaiio no es no declarar. And a ruse and deception is not failure to
De hecho, la sanci6n la constituye el declare. Indeed, the sanction is the failure to
hecho de no declarar. Si tu declare. If you were carrying ...fifteen thousand
llevaras ...quince mil dolares y en la dollars and you wrote ten thousand on the
planilla, pones diez mil ...y te form... and they discover fifteen thousand ...that's
descubren quince mil ...eso es an infraction. The amounts don't matter. That's
infraccion. Las cantidades no an infraction.
importan. Eso es infraccion.

GL: Esta...Es mas de diez mil. Eh It's ...It's more than ten thousand. Uh ...uh ...did
justed lleno la planilla? you fill out the form?

AA: No. No.

GL: Ah, bueno. Entonces, mas notable Oh, okay. So, even more noteworthy. Because
todavia. Porque la infraccion es... the infraction is ...for them to give you the
que le den una planilla ...y...y igual form...and...and just like in the United
que a...aqui en Estados Unidos, mas States, you can't take in more than ten
de diez mil no se puede entrar. [UI] thousand. [UI]

FD: Si se puede entrar. Yes, you can.

File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
- -- -

MM: Pero hay que declarar. I But you must declare.

GL: No, no, tenis que [UI] No, no, you have to [UI]

GL: [UI] que declarar. Ehh, sin declarar. 1 [UI] to declare. Uhh, without declaring.

FD: Exacto. Exactly.

GL: Entonces usted llena la plan ... So...if you fill out the fo...form and say I have
planilla y dice tengo nueve mil ...y... nine thousand ...and. ..and.. have
y...y...y...tiene mas ...esta es la more ...that's the infraction.

AA: No entiendo. I don't understand.

GL: En este caso parece que In this case ...I think there's no infraction either,
tampoco hay infraccion, porque hay because some rulings say ...
algunos fallos que dice...

MM: No te dieron planilla. They didn't give you a form.

GL: ...que si no le dieron la planilla, no ...that there's no infraction if you weren't given a
hay infraccion. He ...he leido fallos form. I've...I've read such rulings. But, since
asi. Pero, como metio ... here.. .

AA: La politica. Politics.

GL: politica y la prensa ...salio ...politics and the press got involved ...justice
corriendo la justicia por la ventana. fled out the window. As
Como.. .como decia un. ..un.. .un old ...uh ...Uruguayan law professor, by the
viejo.. .eh...profesor uruguayo que se name Calamandre, used to say. So, what
llamaba Calamandre. Entonces, happens? We have two positions. One: [UI]
iquC pasa? Tenemos dos contraband, because.. .like you said...that you
posiciones. Una: [UI] contrabando really were carrying books and later said that
porque ...dijera que usted dijo you were carrying sixty thousand ...and you
que...q ue en realidad llevaba libros were actually carrying more. That's not deceit,
y despues dijo que llevaba sesenta legally speaking. That's not deceipt in terms
mil ...y en realidad Ilevaba mas. Eso of. ..deceit is...a concealed bottom, uhh...uh, to
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a - --

no es engaiio en tCrminos j u r i d i c ~ ~ . take in a hundred carts with a...with...with each
Eso no es engaiio en tCrminos... weighing a different amount.
engaiio es...un doble fondo, ehh ...
eh, entrar cien carretillas con un.. .
con. ..con un peso cada una.

MM: 0 , ken que...? Or. in what ...?

AA: Y...y el acta esa que mandaron a And...and that written record they had drawn
hacer. En el acta esa ... up. In that record ...

GL: Y ...yo no la conozco, per0 ... And...uh...Itm not familiar with it, but ...but
per0 evidentemente el acta no tiene obviously the written record includes nothing
nada mas que una infraccibn. more than an infraction.

AA: NO tiene ...? It doesn't have ...?

GL: Nada mas que una infraccion. Nothing more than an infraction.

AA: Correcto.
I Right.

MM: ~ T finnaste
u el acta? Did you sign the record?

AA: Si. Yes.

MM: Y el acta, ique decia? And what did the record say?

AA: Que es una infraction. That it's an infraction.

MM: Que es una infraccibn per0 que That it's an infraction but it said that ...uh, they
decia que, te preguntaron lo de asked you about the ...what are you carrying? ue llevas? Y tu dijistes libros And you said books [UI]

AA: No, no, no. No, no, no.

MM: NO dice nada de eso? It says none of that?
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

AA: No, no. No, no.


MM: Una infraccion. An infraction.

GL: 0 sea que...esto es el estado In other words ...this is the legal situation. Uh ...
juridico. Eh ...le. cuestion uh ...the ...the legal question. And if they were to
juridica. Y si inventaran el make up the contraband allegation, if they did
contrabando, si lo inventaran ... make it up it seems that the ...because the
como parece que lo...porque lo only thing I was able to find out ...about this,
unico que pude averiguar yo since I have nothing to do with the case file
esto, como no tengo nada que ver and ...they don't give me information, the only
con el expediente y no me thing I know is the cover. The cover cites your
me dan informacion, lo unico que se name ...for attempted contraband. Attempted
es la caratula. La caratula dice su contraband is punishable ...six months to
nombre ...por tentativa de ten years ...which makes it completely eligible
contrabando. La tentativa de for release from prison, in other words...
contrabando tiene una pena. . immune from prison. That is ...y ou people want
seis meses a diez afios...lo que la me to declare today but before that, tell me that
hace totalmente excarcelable, es I'm not going to prison.
decir ...eximible de prision. Es
decir ...ustedes quieren que declare
hoy per0 antes diganrne que no voy
a prision.

MM: Tener esa garantia. To have that guarantee.

GL: No se si me explico. La situacion en I'm not sure if I'm making myself understood.
que estamos ahora es esa. That's the situation we're in right now.


GL : Usted no puede ir ...Primero, no You cannot go ...First of all, we cannot prevent
podemos evitar que vaya para que you from going to have the arrest warrant lifted.
se levante la captura. Pero no puede But you cannot go ...without the assurance of
ir ...sin la seguridad de tener la being granted immunity from prison.
eximicion de prision concedida.

AA: Claro. Sure.
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

GL: Entonces, aqui ...creo que So, here ...I think we need the help of politics,
necesitamos la ayuda de la politica, which is what we discussed with you.
que es lo que hablamos contigo.

MM: Hm-mm.

GL: Porque.. . Because.. .

AA: La ayuda de la politica venezolana. Venezuelan political help.

GL : .. Uhh.. .of. ..of the.. .uh. ..uh.. .Venezuelan, with its
venezolana con su influencia sobre influence over Argentina's.
la Argentina.

AA: Bueno, pero. ..pero... Well, but ...but ...


GL : Claro, [UI] Sure, [UI]

AA: ...usted esta claro...0 no se si a're aware ...Or I don't know if you were
usted le echaron ... given.. .

AA: ...el cuento todo. ...the whole story.

MM: No, totalmente, totalmente. Mira. No, completely, completely. Look.

GL: Porque ...Si. Because ...Yes.

MM: Lo que ...lo que yo digo. El fiscal What ...what I'm saying. The prosecutor obeys
responde a1 gobiemo central. the central government. Over there, thank God.
Gracias a Dios, alla. La solicitud The request that needs to be made, which he'll
que hay que hacer, que el te va a explain now, is sent up with a query to the
explicar ahorita que es, va con prosecutor. Then ...uhh, by making the request
consulta a1 fiscal. Entonces ...ehh, now ...of, what's the name? The ...
haciendo la solicitud ahorita,
jc6m0 se llama? La ...
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
-- --

GL: La eximicion de prision. I The immunity from prison.

MM: eximicion de prision ...el ...the immunity from prison.. .the Venezuelan
gobierno venezolano nos garantiza government guarantees us that.. .the measure
que a ti ...te liberan la medida. De ... against you is lifted. By Interpol that ...
de Interpol. ..para que.. .puedas you can travel ...In other words, it lifts the
viajar ...adonde ...0 sea, libera la measure. That is ...
medida. 0 sea...

AA: Y, iquiCn ...? Y, iquiCn la libera ...? And who ...? And who lifts it...? Argentina ...
Argentina.. .

MM: El mismo tribunal argentino. The same Argentine court.

GL: Lo que yo tengo que As I understand it.. .there's an immunity.. .
hay una eximicion ...por lo que lei en according to what I read in the papers ...
10s diarios ...

AA: Si: si. No, es que existe. Yes, yes. No, it does exist.

GL: ...que hay una eximicion de prisi6n ...there's an immunity from prison apparently
presentada a1 parecer por un filed by a lawyer named [UI]
abogado que se llama [UI]

AA: No, no. No, no.

GL: Un abogado que se llama Alberto A lawyer named Alberto Albarrasin [PHI. This
Albarrasin [PHI. Esto es lo que lei. is what I read. But I didn't see it, no. I cannot
Pero no lo vi, no. No me consta. swear to it. Uhh ...And that ...the prosecutor
Ehh ...Y que...el fiscal se reportedly opposed it alleging that you
habi.. .hab...habria opuesto diciendo attempted to evade the law...that ...that you
que usted intento burlar la accion de escaped and the judge ...the judge is supposed
la justicia ... que ...q ue se escapo y el to have agreed and had denied it. This can be
juez juez, le habria dicho y le ...y appealed. No, that one ended because you
le habria dado la razon y la habia didn't file it, it was filed by the lawyer. Right?
denegado. Esto es apelable. No, The code says...You would say, how odd
esa se termino porque no la because I didn't authorize it. The code says
present6 usted, la present6 el that.. .immunity from prison can be
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape.. Number / CD: R2a --

abogado. ~ O k e y ?El codigo submitted.. .by himself, the.. .the...the accused
dice.. .Usted dira, quC raro porque si himself or by third parties. Not even... uh,
yo no la autorice. El codigo dice rather with an authorization without a
que eximicion de prision la power of attorney. So, you can argue, I didn't
puede presentar ...por si, el ...el ...el ask for this. Then you begin to petition for it.
acusado por si o por terceros. Ni Uhh ...So, the question is get ...If the jud ...if
siquiera ... eh, sino un ...un ...un the judge says no ...there's the court of appeals.
nombramiento sin un poder. And if the court of appeals says no, there's the
Entonces, usted puede decir, yo court of cassation ...and if the court of cassation
esto no lo pedi. Ahora se empieza a says no, there's the supreme court because ...up
pedir. Ehh ...Entonces, la cuestion to now, this is an aberration ...uh, uh, for them
es...conseguir ...Si el jue el juez to deny the exemption from ...
dice que no ...esta la camara de
apelaciones. Y si la camara de
apelaciones dice que no, esta la
camara de casacion ...y si la camara
de casacion dice que no, esta la
corte suprema porque eso ...hasta
ahora es una aberration ...lo que le ...
eh, eh, que le nieguen la excimicion

MM: Aja.

GL: ...prision por ese delito. ...prison for that offense.

MM: Ya va. Aqui ...aqui intervengo yo. Wait a minute. Let me come in here. He
No tiene que decir que no ...porque doesn't have to say no ...because the
el gobierno venezolano nos esta Venezuelan government is assuring us that it
garantizando que ya converso con el already talked to the Argentine government to
argentino para que digan que si. get them to say yes. But aside from that, to
Pero independientemente de eso, make that request and for them to answer, you
para hacer esa solicitud y para que don't have to move from here. That's ...done
ellos contesten, tu no tienes que simply with the appointment ...
moverte de aqui. Eso lo hace
solo con la designacion ...


MM: ...como abogado. ...of an attorney.
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number 1 CD: R2a --

GL : E x a c t ~[UI]
. Exactly. [UT]

MM: Eso lo hace 61 y lo pide. 0 sea, que That's done by him and he requests it. In other
cuando tu salgas de aqui ...sera con words, when you leave here'll be with the
la garantia que alla no existe ninguna guarantee that there's no measure.. .seeking
medida captura en tu contra. your capture. You understand?
jMe estas entendiendo?

GL: Solo asi se podria hacer. That's the only way it could be done.

MM: Y asi ...tu vas a...asi tu vas a tener And that way're going to ...that way you're
absoluta certeza de lo que ...lo que going to be absolutely sure ...that what we're
nosotros te estamos diciendo es telling you is true. That you have the support of
verdad. De que tienes el apoyo the ...of the Venezuelan government and,
del ...del gobierno. ..venezolano y, en consequently, of the Argentine ...government.
consecuencias, del gobierno.. .

AA: Pero...estando la cosa tan politizada But ...with the thing so politically charged ...
como esta ...

GL: ~ C o m ocomo?
, I What, what?

M: Que estando la ...estando la situation That with the ...situation as politically charged
tan politizada como... as.. .

FD: Si.
I Yes.
AA: ...esta ...jest0 no es mejor esperar is...isn't it better to wait until after the
hasta despues de las elecciones? elections?



El ...
I The ...

MM: El diez de octubre hay elecciones. There's elections on October 10. Are you and I
~ T yuyo vamos a correr el riesgo going to run the risk of not ...
de que no ...

GL: Bueno... I well ...
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

MM: que no ... ...of not ...

FD: De que no gane Cristina.

MM: ...gane la mia? No joda. ...of mine not winning? Screw it.

AA: Que no gane ... Of defeat.. .

MM: Cristina. Cristina.

M: ...Cristina. ...for Cristina.

FD: Pero y si no gana Cristina, ahi si te But, if Cristina doesn't win, then they're going
van a dar, per0 con un bate. to hit you hard, but with a bat.

MM: No, no. No corramos ese riesgo ... No, no. Let's not run that risk ...Alejandro. In
Alejandro. Ademas, tu ...tu no vas a addition, you're not going to lose anything.
perder nada. No te vas a mover de You're not going to move from here. You're
aqui. Vas a seguir haciendo tu vida going to continue living here. Uh ...there's not
aqui. Este va a haber un going to be's a simple administrative
mero t r h i t e administrativo. per0 procedure, but let's take advantage now of the
aprovechemos ahorita la influencia influence that we have. Tomorrow you never
que tenemos. Maiiana no sabemos. know. I wouldn't run that risk if 1 were you.
Yo no correria ese riesgo siendo tu.

MM: Y jsi gana la oposicion y tu eres el And if the opposition wins and you're the
chivo expiatorio de la vaina? sacrificial lamb of. ..of the thing?

FD: Le echan bolas pa' Ilevarte. Ahi si le They'll go for it to take you there, they'll go for
echan bolas. it.

MM: Yo le preguntC a el. I asked him.
File Number: MM- 109803
Date/Time Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

FD: Y si...Y oyeme, y si hablas, And if. ..And listen, and if you talk, wonderful
buenisimo. Te vas preso tu y todos You'll got to jail, and all the Argentines [UI]
10s argentinos [UI]

GL: Yo no te he oido mucho lo que I haven't heard much of what you're saying.

AA: Y, si...y si, iquC, Frank? And if. ..and if, what, Frank?

FD: Si gana la oposicion, y te lleva...
I If the opposition wins, and you're taken ...

MM: El quiere esperar a la eleccion. He wants to wait for the election. I'm saying, "If
Digo, "iSi no gana Cristina?" Cristina doesn't win?"

AA: Aja. Uh-huh.

FD: [UI] casi mejor porque vas preso tu [UI] almost better because you go to jail and all
y todos 10s argentinos que estCn the Argentines who are with you, you
contigo, i t u me entiendes? 0 sea, es understand? In other words, it's wonderfuI. It's
buenisimo. Es lo mejor de lo peor the best of the worst that can happen.
que puede pasar.

MM: Y ellos tambikn estan interesados. And they're also interested.

AA: Ah, tu dices que si voy y digo la Oh, you're saying that if I go and tell the truth ...
verdad.. .cumdo me.. .me agarren when ]...they jail me there, so everybody lands
preso alla, pa' que vaya preso todo in jail.
el mundo.



Claro. Cae preso todo el mundo.
I Sure. Everybody goes to jail.

GL: No, eh ... No, uh ...

FD: Que...ojo. That out.

AA: Segun.. . 1 According ...
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
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FD: La verdad verdadera es que ellos The real truth is that they're Argentines. They're
son argentinos. Van a defender a su going to defend their land [Ul] and the only one
tierra [Ul] y el h i c o que va a estar who's going to prison is you.
preso eres tu.

GL: Ehh.., eh.. .tengo version por Uhh...If...if, uh ...I have a version of his, what is
61, cual es la verdad. NO? the truth. Right?

AA: ~ C u aes
l la verdad que tiene usted? I What is the truth that you have?

GL: La verdad es que...Uberti te pidio The truth is that ...Uberti asked you to take
que llevaras la...disculpame que te the ...excuse me for addressing you with the
tut6e. familiar you.

AA: Claro, me dijo que car...arrastrara Sure, he told me to car drag the suitcase.
la maleta. Lokey? No, no me dijo, Okay? No, he didn't tell me, no. I...I...I did him
no. Yo ...yo...yo le hice el favor ...y the favor ...and when ...when they told me, uh ...
cuando...cuando me dijeron, eh, uh, "Put it there," he did like that, as if it wasn't
"Pongala ahi," 61 hizo asi, como si no his. And that was all. That simple.
era de 61. Y eso h e todo. Asi de

GL: Ehh...el problema, eh decir la Uhh...the problem, uh ...with telling the truth
verdad ahi que.. .hay un there.. .is that.. .there's aggravated contraband
contrabando agravado [UI] yo lo [UI] what I...what 1 mean is that I'm a loyal
qu ...que te quiero decir que yo soy man, uh, and if l'm hired for you, I'll defend you
un hombre leal, esto, y si me and I'll tell you everything. I want, uh ...uh
contratan para vos, y te defiendo a to look me in the eye and to know that I'm not
vos y te dig0 todo. Es ...esto, quiero, defending anybody, I care a whit about the rest,
eh ... eh ...que me mires a 10s ojos y I care about you. I'm no dreamer nor do I wish
lo sepas, que es que yo no estoy to be.
defendiendo a nadie, me importa
tres pomos 10s demas, me importa
vos. No soy quimerista ni lo quiero

AA: eres...? You aren't ...?

GL: No soy quimerista.. . I'm not a dreamer.. .
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Taje Number / CD: R2a

AA : Ah. Oh.

GL: lo quiero ser. ...nor do I wish to be.

AA: Lull

GL: Eh, asi que esto te lo aclaro con Uh, so I'm clari@ing this beyond any doubt.
toda la ley. Lo que te quiero decir What I mean when there's aggravated
que hay un contrabando agravado, contraband, is when it involves three
que es cuando intervienen tres individuals, one who ...who instigates, uh ...and
personas, uno que...q ue instiga, two who hide. If you ...follow that line, about
eh ...y dos que se esconden. Si the help that [UI] and, well, Wberti is taken
tu ...pones esa linea, de la ayuda que care of because they gave it to him to ...and then
[UI] y, bueno, Wberti esta arreglado they organize the ... organize three. I don't know
porque se lo dieron para ...y if you follow me. That ...that one with three,
entonces ya m a n el ... arman tres. calls for four to ten years incarceration ...and
No sC si me explico. Ese ...ese de with four years minimum, there's no immunity
tres tiene cuatro a diez aiios de from prison. In Argentina. You must remain in
prision ...y... con cuatro de minimo, prison during the process.
no hay eximicion de prision. En la
Argentina. Tienes que estar durante
el proceso detenido.

MM: Guillermo, per0 el lo ...el lo que...lo Guillermo, but he ...what he ...what ...
que ...

GL : Pero ... But ...

MM: ...estaba especulando era como un ...he was speculating about was a pressure
medio de presion si acaso acaso, tactic in case case, uh, politics don't work
eh, la politica no funciona como out like we want. But ...
queremos. Pero.. .

GL : Ah, bueno. Si, un medio de presion, Oh, okay. Yes, a pressure tactic, he was taking
llevaba la ...valija pa' Argentina. the ...suitcase to Argentina.

MM: Claro. [RISA] Sure. [LAUGHTER]

GL: Eso es un medio de presion. Pero ... That's a pressure tactic. But ...that's what has
eso es lo que estan espantados... them panicked ...
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
T a ~ Number
e / CD: R2a

MM: Por eso es que todo el mundo ... That's why everybody.. .

GL: [UT] Eso es lo que tienen ...p inico. [UI] That's what they have ...panic. And in that
Y en ese sentido, el veintiocho ...el regard, the twenty-eight.. .the twenty-eight.. .
veintiocho.. .

MM: Mira. Look.

GL : una.. . a...

GL : octubre ... ...of October ...

MM: La verdad ...le puede costar las The truth ...can cost her the election. The truth,
elecciones a ella. La verdad, se it can become a scandal.
puede convertir en un escandalo.

FD: Pero, ojo. El esti... Yeah, but wait. He is ...

MM: Que le ... That ...

FD : ...el tiene el maso bajo el mango. ...he's got the ace up his sleeve.

MM: Por eso. That's why.

FD : Pero si ella pierde ...tu verdad [UI] But if she loses ...y our truth [UI] nightmare.

MM: Por eso nosotros tenemos que That's why we've got to act now ...that's my ...
actuar ya ...esa es mi ...mi my recommendation.. .and...because,
recomendacion.. .y... porque furthermore, what.. .what...what's worse? Let's
ademas, ique ...que ...que es lo consider. What are the consequences of taking
peor? Vamos a suponer. ~ C u a l e s action? You [UT] an attorney appointment is
son las consecuencias del actuar? made, you appoint him. He goes and asks for
Tu [UT] se hace una designacion de immunity from prison. They refuse him. So.
abogado, lo designas a el. El va y you're going to call me, "Damn, what a croc."
pide la eximicion de prision. Le He's going to call me. "Weren't we supposed to
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
-- ---
Number / CD: R2a

dicen que no. Entonces, me vas a have support? They didn't give me immunity
llamar a mi, "Cofio, que bolas." Me from prison." That's what will happen.
va a llamar 61. "Y que teniamos
apoyo. IVo me dieron la eximicion
de prision." Eso es lo que va a

FD: Tu situacion actual no cambia. Your current situation doesn't change.

MM: Voy a llamar yo ... I'm going to call ...

FD: No empeora. It doesn't get worse.

MM: ...a quien me pus0 a mi en este peo ...whoever got me into this mess and I'm going
y le voy a decir, "Mira, iqu6 paso?" to say, "Listen, what happened?" And I'm going
Y voy a llamar a1 otro, a1 otro y to call the other one, the other and they'll move
moveran lo que haya que mover ... whatever it takes get it.
para que salga.

AA: [Ul:]

MM: Pero ...pero, tu situacion en ese caso But ...but your situation in that case won't be
no va a ser peor que la de ahorita. worse than it is now.

GL: No. No.

MM: Ahorita estas profugo. Right now you're a fugitive.

GL: No va a ser peor ...porque el escrito It's not going to be worse ...because the writ
que yo propongo es...nombra that I'm proposing is ...appoint your lawyer and
abogado y dig0 que me quiero I say that I want to appear. But I want to
presentar. Pero me quiero presentar appear as stated in jurisprudence, when
de ...como dice una jurisprudencia, they created, uh ...uh, the immunity from prison
cuando crearon, eh.. .eh, la in Argentina, they said it was established as a
eximicion de prision en Argentina, peaceful and legal way of appearing. And not
dijeron que es una forma de mandatory, under arrest. So, what you're trying
presentarse de una manera pacifica to get is that right because ...uh, even if they
y legal. Y no de una manera argue that the infraction is an offense, it allows
compulsiva, detenido. Entonces, tu you to go peacefully and legally. I don't know if
lo que estas buscando es ese I make myself clear.
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

derecho porque, la infraccion y
aun si te quieren decir que es un
delito, te permite ir de manera
pacifica y legal. No se si me explico.

AA: Y, ique ...? Okey. Y, iquien And what ...? Okay. And who guarantees ...uh ...
garantiza.. .eh...que. ..que yo vaya y that ...that if I go I won't be jailed?
no me metan preso?

GL: Eh, tu ... Uh, you ...

MM: Th vas a tener la eximici6n antes de I You'll have the immunity before you go.

GL: No, si tu vas tu vas preso, todo I No, if you're ...if you're jailed, all this is over.
esto se acab6. Te quedas preso. I You stay in jail. Because it means that you
Porque quiere decir que no quisiste refused to answer the call of justice.
responder a la justicia.

MM: No, no, el no se refiere a eso. No, no, he's not referring to that.

GL: LA quk? To what?

MM: Dice, una vez obtenida la eximicion, He's saying, once immunity is secured, who
iquikn le garantiza que no lo van a... guarantees that he's not going to be
a detener? arrested?

GL: Bueno, esto es una cosa que 1 Well, this is something that we have to, uh ...uh,
tenemos que, ah, que obtener to obtain politically. It would be great treachery
politicamente. Seria una traicion and, in principle, I would say, extremely
muy jorobada y en principio te diria unlikely. Extremely unlikely.
que es muy poco probable. Muy
poco probable.

FD: Seria el gobierno argentino con el It would be the Argentine government with the
gobierno venezolano. Venezuelan government.
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number I CD: R2a

MM: Porque es el el mism ...el mismo Because it''s the sam...the same
fiscal el que da la opinion de prosecutor the one who renders the opinion
que te den la eximicion. giving you immunity.

AA: El fiscal de Venezuela. The prosecutor from Venezuela.

MM: El fiscal no, el fiscal de Argentina. Not the prosecutor, the prosecutor from

GL: No, es una mujer la fiscal. No, the prosecutor is a woman.

MM: [UJ]

GL : Y hasta ahora han dicho que no. And up to now they've said no.

MM: Aja.

GL: La mujer, el juez, segun 10s diarios According to the media, the woman, the judge,
dijo ... said ...

MM: Cuan ...cuando ha ...cuando haya una Wh.. .when th.. .when there's political pressure,
presion politics, ella va a decir que she'll say yes. Why would she retract herself
si. iPor que se va despues a later? For what reason would she change her
retractar? i c o n que motivo va a ruling from aye to nay, or will she have ask
cambia el dictamen de no o si, o va again...
a tener ...volver a pedir ...

GL : 0 lo va a decir... Or the court will say ...

MM: excarcelacion. ...the release from jail.

GL: camara, si no lo dicen esos dos, if those two don't say so since they're
porque ya estan comprometidos. already committed.
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
T a ~ Number
e / CD: R2a

MM: A lo mejor ella ya ...a lo mejor lo Perhaps she already.. .maybe the.. .
dice ...

MM: c h a r a de instancia superior. ...the superior appeals court says so.

FD: La camara alla es el ente superior. The court is the highest entity over there.

GL : La camara de apelaciones en lo The criminal economic appeals court is the one
penal economico es la que sigue that follows there ...
ahi ...

MM: : L Q U tiempo
~ hay entre la solicitud How much time is there between the request
de eximicion.. .cuando salga.. .? for immunity.. .when it is granted ...? How much
i Q ~ tiempo
6 tiene el fiscal para time does the prosecutor have to appeal that
apelar de esa decision? decision?

GL : Y yo diria...quince, veinte dias. Oh, I would say ...fifteen, twenty days.

MM: 0 sea, que despu6s que 61 tenga la In other words, after he has immunity, we can
eximicion, nosotros podemos wait to see that the prosecutor doesn't appeal ...
esperar a ver que el fiscal no and if the prosecutor doesn't appeal ...
apele ...y si el fiscal no apela ...

GL: No, no, no. No, no, no.

MM: ...tu tienes garantia de que 61 no ...'re guaranteed that he won't.. .won't.. .that
no ...que no lo va a sacar. he won't issue it.

GL : No, no. El fiscal tiene que apelar en No, no. The prosecutor needs to appeal within
tres dias. three days.

MM: Por eso. Si pasa la apelacion, That's why. If it passes.. .his appeal, they can't
ya no lo pueden echar pa' atras. roll it back.
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

GL: No. Para, si hay una conexion ... Ah, No. Stop, if there's a connection ...Oh, no,
no, porque si la que es cierto lo because if the one that ...if what I read is true,
que yo lei, la jueza tarnbien le nego the judge also denied the ...the ...immunity from
la.. .la.. .eximici6n de prision. prison.

FD: iC6m0 tu te ...c6mo hablaron 10s How did you did the lawyers speak to
abogados contigo si no tienen you if they don't have access to the file?
acceso a1 expediente?

AA: iCuales abogados, Frank? What lawyers, Frank?

FD: Los que se reunieron contigo. The ones who met with you.

AA: Igual que esta hablando 61 conmigo. Just like he's talking with me.

FD : Bajo supuestos. Under suppositions.

AA: Claro. Sure.

GL: Entonces ...ahi, eh, si ya s...han So...there ...uh, uh, if. ..they have given an
opinado, es muy dificil ...que digan lo opinion, it's very difficult ...for them to say the
contrario. opposite.

MM: Okey, per0 la pregunta es ... Okay, but the question is ...

GL : Pero ... But ...

MM: Hipoteticamente... Hipothetically ...

GL: ...pero tenemos la camara ... ...but we have the court...

MM: ...hipotkticamente, cuando eso ...hipothetically, when that reaches the court
llegue a la camara, y la c h a r a and the court decides in favor, does that go to a
decida a favor, jeso tiene una higher court?
instancia superior?

GL: Eh, no, no. 0 sea, no. Porque si Uh, no, no. In other words, no. Because if [UI]
[UI] sube a la camara, eh ... it goes up to the court, uh ...
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape- Number / CD: R2a

MM: Y ~ l camara
a ... And the court...

GL: No, no. [UI] No, no. [UI]

MM: ...y la cimara es un ...tribunal ...and is the court a...three-judge tribunal?

GL: Tres. Three.

MM: Son tres jueces. 0 sea... They're three judges. In other words ...

GL : Uno de 10s que esta se mantiene One of the ones that are ...if the same one
la misma, porque esto h e por una remains, because this was a matter of
cuestion de competencia. A la jueza, jurisdiction. The ...the ...the customs director ...
el ...el ...el director de aduana ... uh, uh, told the judge ...that she had acted
eh, eh, le dijo a la jueza ...que habia poorly in this matter because he was unable to
actuado ma1 en ese asunto porque locate and consult with her.
no la encontro para consultarla.

GL: Entonces, la jueza se...excuso. Dijo, Then the judge ...recused herself. She said, "I
"Yo no quiero [UI] Entonces, el juez don't want [UI] Then, the judge that was
que le toco dijo ..."No, esto esta assigned said ..."No, this is wrong." So, it went
mal." Entonces, fue a la camara y la to the court and the court decided that the
camara decidi6 que debia seguir judge must continue handling the matter. That
actuando la jueza. Que no ...y eso no no ...that there was no reason for her to recuse
era motivo para excusarse. No sC si herself. I don't know if I...
me ...

AA: No entiendo. I don't understand.

GL: 0 sea, que ...ya estaria fijada la In other words, that ...the court had already
camara. decided.

MM: iAh? ~Quieresotro? Oh? Do you want another?

File Number: MM-109803
Date/Time Recorded: 08/27/07
T q e Number 1-CD: R2a
- - - --.
- .-

GL: Uno de 10s tres ...miembros de la One of the three ...members of the court, of that
c h a r a , de esa sala de la division of the court... It's not that division, it's
camara ...No es de esa sala, es de another. Because there's a vacancy. They're
otra. Porque hay una vacante. Son three, but there's a vacancy. So, it's filled by the
tres, pero hay una vacante. other one. One of those who voted has always
Entonces, la llena el otro. Uno de held that the money wasn't merchandise.
10s que voto siempre ha dicho que el
dinero no era mercaderia.

AA: iEl dinero era.. .era.. .? The money was ...was ...?

GL: No era mercadena. It wasn't merchandise.

AA : Okey. Okay.

GI,: 0 sea, que no se puede hacer ...un That is, there can't be ...a contra ...This isn't
contra ...Aqui no es contrabando contraband because there's no deceit and no
porque no hay engafio y no hay ruse. But, in addition, uh ...that one says that
ardid. Pero, ademas, eh ...ese dice money isn't merchandise. And in ...
que el dinero no es mercaderia. Y
en ...

FD: Pero por lo menos no fue But at least it wasn't contraband.

GL: ...sin mercaderia, no hay ...without merchandise, there's no contraband.

MM: Porque ademas el. ..los dblares, Because furthermore, the ...the dollars, legally,
legalmente, son propiedad del gob ... are the property of the gov ...of the Federal
de la Reserva Federal de 10s Reserve of the United States of America.
Estados Unidos de AmQica.

AA: Aja. Uh-huh.

MM: Los dolares ... The dollars ...


GL: Para que haya contrabando ... For there to be contraband ...
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD:--
R2a - .- ---

MM: ...son canjeables [UI] la Reserva ...can be exchanged [UI] the Federal Reserve
Federal en oro. [UI] De su into gold. [UI] Its property.

FD : LO ves? You see it?

AA: No, no lo entiendo. No, I don't understand.

MM: No. Legalmente, esto es una ...esto No. Legally, this is a...this is a...a comment of
es una. ..una acotacion que yo te mine. All the dollars the world, that are ...all
hago. Todos 10s dolares ...del those that have been issued, are considered to
mundo, que esthn...todos 10s que be property of the Federal Reserve ...the bills.
estan emitidos, se consideran And what belongs to you their countervalue
propiedad de la Reserva Federal. ..el in gold. You understand?
billete. Y lo que es tu propiedad
su contravalor en oro. iMe

AA : Ya. Okay.

MM: Tu negocias ...con 10s dolares. 0 You trade ...with the dollars. That is, from a
sea, del punto de vista estrictamente strictly legal point of view, the bills are ...the
juridico, el billete es ...propiedad del property of the ban.. .of the Federal Reserve
ban la Reserva Federal y lo que and what's yours ...are the dollar...the ...the gold
es tuyo ...son 10s dolar ...lo ...el oro that guarantees those bills. Important.
que garantiza a esos billetes.

AA: Y, ieso no lo hace contrabando? And doesn't that make it contraband?

MM: Lo que ...te quiero decir que eso no What ...I want to tell you is that isn't
es mercader es ... mercandi's not ...

AA : Ah. Oh.

MM: son ... ...they're not.. .


FD : No es mercaderia. It's not merchandise.
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

MM: No es mercaderia. It's not's not merchandise.

FD: Mercaderia es el oro que esta en el The gold on deposit at the Central Bank is
Banco Central. merchandise.

GL: Bueno ... Well ...

FD: Es un recibo. It's a receipt.

GL: De todas maneras, la mayoria dice Anyway, the majority says that it's
que es mercaderia. Pero ...10s otros merchandise. But ...the other two judges of that
dos jueces de esa camara, uno ...que court, one ...who receives money ...and the
recibe plata ...y el otro, yo lo other, I know him very well but this is no
conozco mucho per0 esto no guarantee of anything. He's very talkative, he's
garantiza nada. Es muy hablante, es very political.
muy politico.



GL: 0 sea, que te diria ...que si tenemos In other words, I would say...that if we have a
acuerdo politico, la camara puede political understanding, the court can help.
ayudar. Lo que no te puede pasar a What you can't do is let yourself get caught
vos es que te agarren aqui. Y que te here. And have you taken to jail over there.
lleven preso alla. Porque en un Because within some time, at least until our
tiempo, por lo menos hasta nuestras elections, if Chavez applies a lot of weight, [UI]
elecciones, si Chavez hace pesar Then there's the court, I think the court will
mucho, [UI] Despues esta la corte, take care of this ...but ... [UI] what they can't do
yo creo que la corte si sale de is catch you here.
esto ...pero... [Ul] lo que no te
pueden hacer es agarrarte a vos

AA: Por eso. Ando como...ando, ando That's why. I'm like ...I'm, I'm hiding out.

MM: Por eso no podemos esperar. iMe I That's why we can't wait. You understand?
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

entiendes? Que ...alla tiene que 1 There must be somebody over there saying ...
haber alguien diciendo.. .

GL: No pierdes nada pierdes nada You don't lose anything don't lose
si vas haciendo 10s tramites ahora ... anything if you start the proceedings now ...
porque.. .suponte que.. .perdamos en because ...suppose that ...we lose in the the ...
la. ..en la.. .la camara. Porque es the court. Because it's before the twenty-eighth
antes del veintiocho de octubre y a1 of October and it's not in the government's
gobierno no le conviene. 0 , porque interest. Or, because if the government wants to
si el gobierno te quiere ayudar y...y help you and...and wants to wait until the
quiere esperar a1 veintiocho de twenty-eighth of October, uh, uh, it'll say, pal,
octubre, eh, eh, le dice, flaco, get it out on the twenty-ninth. To the court. I'm
sacamela el veintinueve. A la not sure if I make myself clear. But for that we
cimara. No sC si me explico. Y si still have two, three more months.
no, tenemos la corte. Pero eso ya
tenemos dos, tres meses mhs.

MM: Mira, C1 es un profesional muy serio Listen, he's a very serious professional and he
y no te puede ...hablar de la manera can't to you like I'm going to talk to you.
en que te voy a hablar yo. Pero.. . But ...everybody in Venezuela is fucking afraid
todo el mundo en Venezuela esta for you. Everybody wants you to get out of the
cagado por ti. Todos quieren que tu mess. They all want ...your mess resolved so the
salgas del pe'o. Todos quieren ...que truth doesn't come out. They all want that.
se resuelva tu asunto para que la Including the Argentines.. .who...already settled
verdad no salga a la luz. Todos their political mess and made one person resign
quieren eso. Inclusive 10s and asked for Diego's resignation and ...
argentinos. ..que. ..ya arreglaron su arranged their things in order to temper
pe'o politico y hicieron que uno politically what this scandal means ...but they
renunciara y pidieron que renunciara don't want the truth to come out either. So,
Diego y...movieron sus cosas para that your best guarantee that you'll have the
atenuar politicamente lo que political support for that to [UI]
significo ese escindalo ...pero ellos
tampoco quieren que la verdad
salga a la luz. Entonces, eso tu
mejor garantia de que vas a tener el
apoyo politico para que eso [UI]

AA : Okey, per0 yo hasta ahora me he Okay, but up to now I've behaved, you know,
portado, tu sabes, como. ..como.. .o like other words, like they asked me
sea, como me pidieron, pues. to.
File Number: MM- 109803
Date/Time Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

MM: Claro. Sure.

AA: Callate la boca. Me call6 la boca. Shut your mouth. I shut my mouth. Uh ...
Este ...

MM: Claro, per0 tienes que Sure, but ...bu ...You have to continue
seguir dando esas seiiales. Sin giving those signals. However, as your
embargo, como tu defensa, te defense ...uh, we're telling you it's good that
decimos que es conveniente que they ...that we pressure them to settle the
ellos...que nosotros le hagamos matter. Because.. .if...
presidn a ellos para que resuelvan el
tema. Porque e...

FD: [UI] claro, tenemos que darle las [UI] sure, we have to give her the tools for
herramientas a ella para que ellos them to settle the matter. Until now ...we haven't
resuelvan el tema. Hasta ahorita given them to her. Think [UI] the attorney. [UI]
se la hemos dado. Piensa [UI] el
abogado. [Ul]

MM: 0 sea, porque sin tu participation
es ...
I In other words, without your involvement it's...

FD : [UI] es necesario ... [UI] is necessary...

MM: imposible arreglar todo el's impossible to fix the whole problem.

FD: necesario que.. .'s's necessary to. ..

MM: ,..sin que eso sea un escandalo. ...without that being a scandal.

.que ...q ue t6 te defiendas. ...that...that you defend yourself.

GL: Le queda otra ... He's left with another ...

FD: Porque sino la ... Because if not the ...

GL: ... I ...the ...
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

FD: ...otra es que te agarran. Y te toca ...another [thing] is to catch you. And you have
defenderte por la fuerza, per0 ya, no option but to defend yourself but, damn,
cofio, ya agarrado. you're already caught.

MM: No, no, y ademas que ... No, no, and besides, that ...

FD: [UI] trat evitar. [UI] try avoid [it].

MM: El me explicaba ayer. No es lo He was explaining to me yesterday. The
mismo el inimo politico, el inimo political temper is not the same, the judge's
del juez, el inimo de la opinion temper, the temper of public opinion ...when
publica ...cuando tu vas ...y, le dices, you go ...and tell them, here's my lawyer, I'm ...
aqui esta mi abogado, me estoy ... defending myself. Lift the thing if you want me
defendiendo. Liberenme la vaina si to come to deliver a statement. That's not
quiere que yo venga a...a rendir the same as being caught and taken.
declaracion. No es lo mismo eso de
que te agarren y te lleven.

FD: No es lo mismo. It's not the same.

AA: Bueno, y...y...y...Es que mi gran Well,'s just that my big fear
miedo es ese porque.. .yo...yo is that because ...I...I appoint a lawyer before
nombro un abogado antes de las the elections, right? When everything is so
elecciones, jverdad? Que todo esta inflamed that ...they'll go and fetch me.
tan candela van a ir a buscar.

FD: No, per0 ya tienes un abogado. Ya No, but you already have a lawyer. You've
tienes adelantado el camino, already paved the way.


MM: jAdonde te van a ir a buscar? Where will they go and fetch you?

AA: Aqui. Here.

MM: Pero, jcual es la diferencia? But, what's the difference?

GL : No, no entiendo ... No, I can't understand ...
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
--- - -
- -

MM: Si te quieren bu ... If they want to fe ...

GL: ...lo qui estan discutiendo con el ...what you're discussing -with the piano [UI]
piano [UI:]

M: Espera. Vamos a mudarnos pa' otra Wait. Let's move to another table.

MM: Si, vamos a pedirle una muda de Yes, let's ask them for a table change. Uhh...
mesa. Ehh...

GL: Eh, no, no importa. Sigamos aca. Si, Uh, no, it doesn't matter. Let's stay here. Yes,
porque.. . because ...

MM: Lo que ...lo que...lo que 61 esta What.. .what.. .what he's asking.. .
preguntando.. .

GL: ...mejor porque no nos oyen de otro ...better because they can't hear us from
lado. Y ademas no te mov6s mucho another side. And also because that way you
asi. don't have to move much.

AA: Okey. Okay.

MM: El ...61 esta planteando que He ...he's raising the point ...that.. .if appointing a
nombrara abogado ahorita.. . lawyer now ...would trigger the justice system to
accionaria a la justicia para que lo pursue him. It's just that everything that's ...
persiguiera. Es que ya todo lo que everything that needs to be done internationally
esta.. .todo lo que internacionalmente to hunt you down, is in place. How does it
hay que hacer para perseguirte, work? Well. An arrest warrant. It wasn't
esta. iC6m0 funciona? Bueno. Una presented. A warrant for ...capture through
orden de conduccion. No se Interpol. Interpol already has you in the
presento. Una orden.. .de captura a system ...and that's how it works. Some day, at
traves de Interpol. Interpol ya te some event, in some thing, Interpol grabs
tiene en el sistema ...y asi funciona. somebody who's.. .out there.
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

A l g h dia, en algun evento, en
alguna vaina, Interpol agarra a
alguien que este... por ahi.

GL : No, es a1 reves. Pues, nombrando No, quite the opposite. By appointing a defense
defensor vos estas diciendo, yo attorney, you are saying, I want to join this case
quiero entrar a esta causa per0 but let me in ...though not imprisoned. I b...I
dejenme entrar en...pero no preso. have here a handwritten.. .a...a writing for you
Yo t...yo traigo aqui escrito a mano to see if [UI] And then there's another thing
un ...un... un escrito para que tu mires that ...that I forgot to tell you yesterday.
a ver si te ...te [UT] Y despues hay Which ...which is very important. Everybody
otra cosa que...q ue yo me olvide de who accused of...of an offense...has the
decirte ayer. Que...q ue ya es muy right to make an appearance voluntary... which
importante. Toda persona que...esta is done in writing. That you a weapon ...
imputada un delito ...tiene or, I don't know you all say it, it gives you a
derecho a hacer una presentacion very important weapon. Because ...if you, uh,
que se llama espontinea ...q ue se make the voluntary appearance, you don't have
hace por escrito. Eso te ...a...a vos to go and deliver it. I take it with me. You sign
te da un arma...o a ti, no se como and I take it. In the voluntary appearance you.. .
dicen ustedes, te da un arma muy we make up ...some...some thing that ... won't
importante. Porque.. .si vos, eh, make them look bad.
haces la presentacion espontanea,
no tenes que ir a llevarla. La llevo
yo. Firmas vos y la llevo yo. En la
presentacion espontinea vos.. .in...
inventamos.. .alguna...a.. .alguna cosa
que no 10s...deje ma1 a ellos.

AA: Que no 10s deje mal. That won't make them look bad.

GL: Eh, que no, que no sea la Uh, that doesn't...uh, that isn't the truth. Uh,
verdad. Eh, que...que ...q ue, ah, que that. ..that. ..that, uh, that the suitcase belonged
la valija era de Uberti. to Uberti.


GL: Y era para las elecciones de And it was for Cristina's elections.

AA: Pa' que yo no se pa' que I For ...the thing is I don't know what it was for.
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a


GL: iEh? Huh?

M: Yo para que era, no se. I don't know what it was for.

GL: [UI] Suponte. Eh ...vos ya le das ...le [UI:] Suppose. Uh.. .you give.. .you give the
das la seiial politica ...a1 gobierno political the Argentine government ...
argentino.. .

MM: De que no lo vas a vender. That you're not going to sell them out.

GL: que ...que no estas dispuesto a ...that ...that you're not willing to [UI] And to
[UI] Y a Chavez tambien. Con lo Chavez too. With which Chavez can pressure
cual Chavez puede presionar a1 the Argentine government by way of.. .of...
gobierno argentino a traves de... of. ..of [UI]
de [UI]

MM: Y jcual puede ser la motivacion ...? And what could be the motivation ...? I
Yo queria ... le ...y o hubiera wanted ...I would have declared if they had
declarado si me hubieran dado la given me the form, but ...we were never given
planilla, per0 ... nunca se nos entrego the form.
la planilla.

GL: Bueno ...Para, todo lo que estamos Well.. .Stop, everything we're talking about ...
hablando.. .ehh, Alejandro.. .eh, es... uhh, Alejandro...uh, is ...hypothetical until I
hipotetico hasta que yo lea ...el ...el read.. .the...the file.

MM: Y...y, ique necesitas tu pa' poder And ...and what do you need to be able to read
leer el expediente? the file?

GL: Que el me nombre. Que el me That he appoint me. That he appoint me,
nombre, que ...q ue ...q ue lo ... that ...that ...that it be signed by a special notary
rubrique un escribano y que...que a and that ...that the special notary's signature be
la firma del escribano la rubrique signed by some authority, uhh ...
alguna autoridad, ehh...
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

MM: No, eso ... No, that ...

GL: Esta ... ...from the Unit ...

MM: ...eso. . ...that ...if.. .

GL: Estados Unidos. I ...from the United States.

MM: .eso se hace ... ...if. ..that's done ...

GL: Aunque el no sea argentino. Even if he's not Argentine.

MM: ...con un notario. Des ... ...uh ...uh ...with a notary public. Aft...then you
despues se va a1...a1 County Clerk go to the ...the County Clerk here. There ...
aqui. Ahi se...

GL: Bueno, por eso. Right, that's why.

MM: legaliza a1 escribano [UI] ...the special notary is legalized [UI:]

GL : Claro. [UI] Sure. [UI]

FD: El notario puede ser Karim. Karim Karim can be the notary public. Karim is a
es notario. notary public.

MM: Cualquiera. Whichever.

GL: Pero, ehh...que tu nombres abogado But, uhh...that you appoint a lawyer is better ...
es mejor me estoy buscando un I'm not looking for work ...
trabaj 0...

AA: No, yo lo estoy escuchando. No, I'm listening to you.

GL: Quiero ser absolutamente sincero. I want to be completely sincere. Uh, for you to
Eh, que tu nombres un abogado y appoint a lawyer and say, I want to present
que digas, quiero presentarme.. . myself. ..but I want to appear after exercising
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

pero, quiero presentarme my rights. Why would I present myself as a
previamente de salvar mi derecho. prisoner if I can present myself as a free man.
~Porquevoy a ir ...presentanne It's what you're going to say. It's different than
preso si puedo presentarme en being missing.
libertad? Es lo que vas a decir vos.
Es distinto de estar desaparecido.

MM: Y tu no te escapaste. Porque And you didn't flee. Because there was nothing
cuando tu saliste de Argentina no against you when you left Argentina.
habia nada en tu contra.

AA: Nada. Nothing.

MM: A ti ahi te dijeron, aqui esta tu They told you, here's your infraction, you
infraction, tu firmaste tu vaina, tu signed your thing, you said your [UI] you left
dijiste tu [UT] ~ te fuiste por el by the airport, you didn't ...He didn't flee as a
aeropuerto, tu no ...El no salio fugitive..

GL: Pero, ya sC. Claro. But I know. Of course.

MM: Bueno. Entonces. .. A1 right. So...

GL: Porque la.. .el k i c o argumento.. . Because the.. .the only argument.. .to deny you
para no darte la eximicion de prision immunity from prison is that that that
es que que que you ...tried to fled. And you didn't flee.
te ...quisiste ...escapaste. Y vos no te They're making that up.
escapaste. Es un invent0 de ellos.

AA: Claro que si. Of course.

GL: Pero es el unico motivo que...que But it's the only reason that ...that the code
admite el codigo para ...para no allows deny you. So, if you remain ...
dhrtela. Entonces, que tu te without saying "A" fugitive, you acknowledge
mantengas ...sin decir ni "A" profugo, that they're right. He wants to remain fugitive.
le das la razon a ellos. Se quiere Whereas, if you.. .
mantener profugo. En cambio, si
VOS ...
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

FD: [UI] otros abogados. [UI] other lawyers.

GL: ...estas diciendo.. .nombro un ...are saying...I appoint a lawyer.

AA: Yo tengo que ir para alla. I have to go over there.

GL: Nombre [UI] Pido la eximicidn de Appoint [UI] I request immunity from prison.
prisidn. Ha ...hacks la presentacidn You make the voluntary appearance. The
espontknea. El escrito donde writing where you explain ...
explicas. ..

FD: Asi no tienes que ir. I That way you don't have to go.

GL: Todo esto sin ir. Es decir, yo voy a All this without going. In other words, I'm going
ir el dia que me den la eximicidn de to go when they give me immunity from prison
prisidn [UI] Porque es mi derecho. [UI] Because it's my right.

MM: No, tu no puedes ir antes. Si tu te No, you can't go before. If you go before ...
vas antes.. .

GL: Y ahi tenemos ayuda And later ...if we have political influence,
politica, eh.. .que...que haya una uh ...that ...there's an absolute guarantee that
garantia absoluta de que despues... later ...they won't change any of that. It's
no te van a carnbiar nada de eso. Es difficult, but ... [UI]
dificil, per0 ... [UI]

AA: Y...y jquien me garantiza eso? And ...and who can guarantee that?

GL: Eh, Kirchner y Chavez. Uh, Kirchner and Chavez.

MM: Okey.
I Okay.

AA: Kirchner y Chavez. Bueno, per0 ... Kirchner and Chavez. Okay, but.. .they haven't me han dado nada ...jsabes? given me anything know? In other
0 sea... words ...
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a --

FD: iC6m0 que no, Alejandro? En What do you mean, Alejandro? They haven't
Venezuela no te han atacado, attacked you in Venezuela, man.

GL: Pero yo estoy aqui...yo estoy aqui ... But I'm here ...I'm here ...

MM: No, per0 ...pero, Alejandro... No, but ...but, Alejandro ...

GL: ...por.. . ...for...

lVlM : te han dado nada. ...they haven't.. .haven't given you anything.

...for him ...

MM: Yo ...yo m e ...yo...yo...

FD: No, en Venezuela no lo han atacado No, they haven't attacked him in Venezuela

MM: ...pero yo compro tu version. No te ...but I'll buy your version. They haven't given
han dado nada. Antes de ir ...para you anything. Before going ...over there, we'll
alla, vamos a tener cinco o seis have five or six clear signs ...of whether we have
muestras si estamos support or we don't. And those clear signs
apoyados o no estamos apoyados. are...uh, that once his defense has been
Y esas muestras claras, que accepted ...they give you the immunity from
admitida la defensa el ...te den a prison. That's clear ...proof of willingness. Why
ti la exoneracion de prision. Eso es would they grant you immunity from prison ...
una muestra ...clara de que hay uh, only to take it away later? First. Second.
disposicion. ~ P o r q u pa'
e que te van Uhh...Therels isn't action has been brought
a dar la exoneracion de prision' against you in Venezuela. That eventually.. .if
despues, este...q uitirtela? Primera. they wanted to, they could do so for not having
Segunda. Ehh...En Venezuela no declared the exit ...the ...
hay media accion en tu contra.
Que ellos
quisieran, pudieran hacerlo por no
haber declarado la ...
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number
- / CD: R2a

AA: [UI]

MM: exportacion de las divisas. Que ...the export of currency. That's.. .a.. .a fly in the
esa es ...una ...una patica coja que ... ointment that.. .I'll explain to you later how.. .
despues te explico yo como ...como how it can be resolved. Uh, but this is the last
puede resolverse. Este, per0 que mess, as far as I'm concerned. The first thing is
ese es pa' mi es el ultimo pe'o. Lo what ...
primer0 es lo que ...

AA: Coiio, per0 ese pe'o es grave Damn, but that mess is serious because in
porque en Venezuela ...eso si es Venezuela ...that's jail, right?
carcel, jno?

MM: No. No.

AA: jNo? No?

MM: No. [UI] No. [UI]

FD: No, la ley no esta ... No, the law isn't ...

MM: La Ley de llicitos Cambiarios tiene The Law on lllegal Exchange Practices has so
tantos vacios y tantas vainas que ... many loopholes and so many things that
ahi tienes una multa per0 no te la have a fine but they won't [UI]

FD: Vielma Mora declaro ayer...que eso Vielma Mora declared yesterday ...that that
no competia a1 Seniat. Y declaro wasn't a matter for Seniat. And he stated that
que Venoco era una empresa Venoco was a model company regarding its tax
ejemplar en su declaracion de declaration. That it was ...constantly supervised.
impuestos. Que era ...supervisada For being a model company regarding its tax
constantemente. Por ser una declaration. He said it publicly ...he made that
empresa modelo en declaracion de statement throughout the media.
impuesto. Lo dijo publicarnente.. .lo
public6 por todos 10s medios.
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

M : Bueno, si, per0 tambien han dicho Well, yes, but others have also said that ...that ...
otros que ...que ...

FD : El ha dicho ...el ...que el He's said ...the ...that the Vice-President of the
vice-presidente de la Asamblea, que [National] Assembly, who's an idiot that
es un huevon que ni sabe donde esta doesn't know squat ...who's said...the ...y ou
parado. ..quien ha dicho. ..el...tu know ...those who've said outrageous stuff, are
sabes ...10s que han dicho ... the people ... who are touching you ...who are in
cualquier barbaridad, son la gente ... power, but who're misinformed. In other
que esta tocandote ...q ue estan en words, who are acting as. ..vacuum fillers. Hole
poder, per0 esta desinformados. 0 fillers. But the people ...let's say, the core
sea, que estan de ...llenadores de ones...Minister of Interior and Justice ...deputy
vacio. Llenadores de huecos. Pero Minister of Interior and Justice ...President of
la, digamos, 10s Seniat ...uhh ...the Attorney General of the
medulares ... per ...Ministro de Republic, those have sent out clear signals...
Interior y Justicia ...Vice ministro de of. trouble.
Interior y Justicia ...Presidente del
Seniat... ehh ...Fiscal General de la
Republics, esos si han dado las
seiiales...completicas de que ...cero

M : Porque hay un ...hay ...por Because there's a...thereVs...ofcourse ...there's a
supuesto ...hay mil problemas. thousand problems.

MM: Uh-huh.

M : Pero explicame ...el de Venezuela, But explain to me ...the one from Venezuela,
okey. Si es so10 esto, la mentira se okay. If it's only this, the lie goes to
va pa' Venezuela ...y jc6m0 Venezuela ...and how do I fix this mess here?
resuelvo yo el rollo aqui?

MM: El de que? The.. .of.. .what mess?

FD: Si tu no saliste de aqui con plata. If you didn't leave here with money.

AA: Bueno, yo apareci con ochocientos Well, I showed up with eight hundred thousand
mil dolares. dollars.

MM: De ...desde el punto de vista legal en I Fr.. .from a legal point of view in Venezuela.. .
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

Venezuela ...el control de cambio ... exchange controls ...exist since two ...since two
esta desde el dos ...desde el dos mil thousand three. You ...y ou ...could perfectly well
tres. Tu ...tu ...perfectamente podias have had that money ...prior to 2003.
tener ese dinero ...con anterioridad
a1 2003.

FD: Peor, Alejandro, lo puedo tener yo. Worse, Alejandro, I could have it.

MM: Lo podia tener el. He could have had it.

FD: Y yo te dije a ti ..."Llevate ...llkvate And I told you ..."Take ...take sixty thousand."
sesenta mil." Y tu agarraste la And you grabbed the suitcase with eight
maleta con ochocientos. hundred.

MM: No, bueno, esas ya son otros ... No, well, those are other ...

FD: Pero, espkrate. But, wait up.

MM: Si, si, eso es un ... Yes, yes, that's a...

FD: Un par de bolas. Y ya no tienes el A pair of curve balls. And you no longer have
pe'o tu. Lo tengo yo. Tu te liberaste. the problem. I have it. You freed yourself. You
Quedaste como el grandisimo emerge as the big do-good asshole, who
carajo buena-nota, que se llev6 la carried off the wrong suitcase. And the
maleta equivocada. Y vienen las batteries then point to me. And the media is
bu ...las baterias pa' mi. Y 10s delighted. You understand? I'll see if I have
medios van felices. ~Entiendes?Yo enough statements...if I'm capable of moving
vere si tengo las suficientes that. And you no longer have a problem here.
declaraciones.. .de que yo soy capaz In other words, the solutions for that is...step
de mover eso. Y tu no tienes ya two. First, defend yourself.
pe'o aqui. 0 sea, soluciones para
eso es ...paso dos. Primero,

MM: No, ahorita ...ahorita [UI] No, now [UI]

FD: Ahorita, eres un profugo sin Right now, you're a fugitive without a defense.
defensa. Eso es lo primero. That's number one.
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a ,

MM: Tu ...tu ya has hablado con mucha You've already talked to many people ...
gente.. .


FD: Paso dos, de contar la verdad o no Step two, to tell the truth or not [UI]

No, no. Yo no he hablado.
No. no. I haven't talked.

MM: No, no... No, no ...

AA: Yo con 10s unicos que he hablado I've only spoken with the people from PDVSA.
f i e la gente de PDVSA.

MM: Okey. Okay.

AA: Con mas nadie. With nobody else.

MM: Fijate. Entre Venez ...entre Estados Look. There is a recent ...extradition treaty
Unidos y Argentina, existe de between Venez ...between the United States
reciente data ...un tratado de and Argentina. And I extradite my national and
extradicion. Y yo extradito a mi you extradite nationals with ...what
nacional y tu me extraditas a...a mis punishment, for what offense?
nacionales con uC pena, con quC

GL: Con un delito que tenga pena de ... For an offense punishable with ...with a year or
de un d o o mas. more.

MM: Con un delito de pena de un aiio o For an offense punishable with a year or more.
mas. 0 sea, que ...este ...maiiana ... In other words, that ...uh ...tomorrow can
puede ...puede ... be ...can be ...

GL: te detienen y...y If. ..uh ...if they arrest you and ...and if Argentina,
Argentina, eh, hace 10s tramites de uh, handles the formal extradition proceedings
extradicion formalmente bien, estas properly, you're at a disadvantage.
en desventaja.
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

MM: L A Usiendo
~ 61 ciudadano Even if he's an American citizen?

GL: Aun siendo ciudadano. Ha.. .hace.. . Even being a citizen. Many years ago ...
hace muchos afios 10s tratados ... international treaties ...didn't grant extradition
internacionales no concedian la of. ..of nationals and prosecuted them
extradicion del ...del nacional y 10s themselves. Now, m...most treaties have ...
juzgaban ellos. Ahora, ] mayoria United States and Argentina, in particular, it
de 10s tratados tienen ...Estados says ...specifically that they grant the extradition
Unidos y Argentina, en particular, of nationals. An Argentine comes here if U.S.
dice..,concretamente que dan la justice requests him and an ...American goes
extradicion del nacional. Un there if Argentina's justice requests him.
argentino viene para aca si lo pide la
justicia de Estados Unidos y un ...
norteamericano se va para alla si lo
pide la justicia argentina.

FD: ~ S a b e lo
s que quiero, Alex? You know what I want, Alex?

GL: Es lo primer0 ... It's the first ...

GL: ..que tuviese ... ...that would have..

FD: Quiero ... 0 sea, no quiero que estCs I want ... In other words, I don't want you in the
en el punto ...del carajo que estaba position ...of the guy who was up in the tree ...
sobre el hrbol ...y le decian, and they were telling him, "Get down, brother."
"Hermano, bajate." "No, no, que "No, no, God will help me." And then came the
Dios me ayuda." Y despuCs guys with the barge. "Brother, get down." "No,
pasaban 10s carajos con la balsa. God will help me." And then come ...So, when
"Hermano, bajate." "No, es que the guy left, he arrived in heaven. And he said
Dios me ayuda." Y despuCs to him, "Damn, God. Shit, you didn't save me."
viene ...Entonces, cuando se fue el "No, you asshole, [UI] I sent you about five,
carajo, lleg6 a1 cielo. Y le dijo, damn you. You wouldn't pay attention. Now
"Coiio, Dios. No joda, no me you're screwed." You understand?
salvaste." "No, huevon, [UI] yo te
mandC como cinco, cofio. No
paraste bola. Ahora te jodiste."
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

MM: Mira. Y sea cual sea la position. Look. And whatever the position. The ...
La ...pasividad y la inactividad no es passiveness and inactivity are not your allies.
tu aliado. Bajo el argument0 de que Based on the argument that you are in contempt
tu eres un contumaz a presentarte of court, that you failed to appear before
ante la justicia, el hecho de no justice, the fact of not appointing an attorney,
nombrar un abogado lo que hace, es merely confirms it. The longer you wait,
certificarlo. Si mientras mas tiempo whoever opposes you ...uh, will have more
pase, mas va tener quien se oponga arguments to say..."But it's been four.. .months...
a ti, argumentos para decir ... Or, it's been five months that we've been ...
"Pero si hace cuatro ... meses ...0 si requesting him and, it's now that he's going to
hace cinco meses, que lo appear? How can we give him immunity from
estamos ...pidiendo y, jahorita es prison? If. ..look, he was away for so long
que va a aparecer? jComo le and...what guarantee do I have that [UI]
vamos a dar eximicihn de
prision? Si...fijate, estuvo tanto
tiempo fuera y.. .quC garantia tengo
yo de que [UI.]

FD: HuyCndole a la justicia. Vino a Fleeing from justice. He came to hand out
repartir la justicia porque lo justice because they caught him.

MM: Ahora.. .ahora es.. .ahora es logico... Now is it's logical ...that you
que tu te presentes ahora, bueno, se appear now, well, the row ended and there was
par6 el zaperoco y hub0 un a scandal ...
escandalo. ..

FD: Los medios te ...te espantaron [UI] The media ...spooked you [UI]

MM: Eh, 10s medios te pasaron. Vinieron Uh, the media showed you. They came ...the
10s...para aca 10s argentinos a Argentines came here to intrude in your house.
meterse en tu casa. En tu negocio, In your business, in your thing, in your life.
en tu vaina, en tu vida.

FD: Tienes argumentos. [UI] You have arguments. [UI]
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

MM: LTUentiendes? Entonces, coiio, yo You understand? So, damn it, I calmed down,
me calme, yo me afecte de 10s it affected my nerves and...Welll see, later. I
nervios y...Despues, veremos. Yo was telling him ...I was telling him ...I was telling
se lo decia a Cl ...yo se lo decia a C1 him and he was telling me's not a good idea
hace ...y o se lo decia a 61 y 61 me to analyze it now but also ...we can analyze ...
decia que ...ahorita no es in the event ...depending on the political
recomendable analizarlo per0 situation in Argentina regarding the case. After
tambien.. .podemos analizar ...en un.. . they grant you immunity from prison, we submit
en una eventualidad ...dependiendo one of those really grave medical reports saying
c6mo este la situaci6n politica en that you can't travel because of your
Argentina en cuanto a1 caso. condition ...and see if we can gi ...give a
DespuCs de que te den la eximicion statement here at the consulate. He tells me
de prisibn, presentarnos con un it's not easy but not impossible for that to
informe medico de esos happen. But the first thing you need is immunity
arrechisimos que diga que tu no from prison. You understand?
puedes viajar por el estado en que
te encuentras...y ver si podemos
re. ..rendir declaraci6n aqui ante ...
ante el consulado. El me dice que no
es facil per0 tampoco es imposible
de que eso pase. Pero lo primero
que necesitas es la eximici6n de
prision. ~Entiendes?

GL: Yo ...yo no quiero hablarte mas para I...I don't want to talk to you any longer so it
que no parezca que te quiero doesn't appear like, uh, I'm trying to convince
convencer, eh, que estoy aqui para you, uh, that I'm here to convince you. Ask me
convencerte. Tu preguntame lo que whatever you want. Uh? [UI]
quieras. iEh? [UI]

AA: No, no, no. A mi lo que me No, no, no. What concerns me is the political
preocupa es el tema politico. question. Because I.. .I.. .I...Okay, perfect.
Porque yo.. .yo...yo.. .Okey, What you are saying is a very valid point.
perfecto. Es muy valido lo que Right? And ...and I believe what you are telling
me estas diciendo y lo creo. me. But I sign now only weapon is
jverdad? Y.. .y les creo lo que me the.. .is the truth. That [the money] was never
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

e s t h diciendo. Pero yo firmo ya ... mine, right? You're predicting a disaster if I say
yo ...mi imica arma la la so because the world will fall apart. Right? And
verdad. Que eso nunca h e mio, nobody's given any signs of wanting to help me.
jverdad? Que tu dices que es un Simply..."No, sign [it], show up there
desastre si lo dig0 porque se cae el and...we'll settle with the ...with this judge ... one
mundo. jverdad? Y nadie ha dado who is political and the other, who's corrupt,
sefiales de que me quieren ayudar. who takes money." In other words ...y ou
Simplemente.. ."No, firma, understand? That terrifies me. You ...You've got
presintate alla y.. .ya cuadran'amos to understand that.
con el ...con el juez este que es
politico y otro que es corrupto, que
agarra plata." 0 sea.. .jme
entendiste? A mi me asusta de sobre
manera. Tu ... Tienes que
entenderme eso.

GL: Si, te entiendo, pero, pero ... Yes, I understand, but ...uh, but ...


MM: Pero ... But.. .

GL: ...te ... ...I...

MM: ...te hago una pregunta. ...I ask you.

GL: ...pero, te compre.. .pero, para. Te ...but, I unders ...but, stop. I understand you
comprendo totalmente. perfectly.

MM: Te hago una pregunta. Let me ask you a question.

GL: Pero ...pero tu tambikn tienes [UI] But.. .but you also have to [UI] my., a
mi ...mi ...ehh, un arma... weapon.

MM: Alejandro ...nadie te dijo ... Alejandro.. .nobody told you.. .

GL: Tienes un arma importante...que es You've got an important weapon ...which is
tu lengua. your word.

MM: Exacto. Exactly.
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

GL: ...que.. .que todos.. .que.. .Porque yo ...that.. .that everybody.. .that.. .Because I think
creo que el esta aqui ...por tu lengua. he's here. ..because of what you say.

AA: Claro. Sure.

NlM: Ya, no. No por tu lengua. Por el Okay, no. Not because of what you say. But
potencial de tu lengua. [RISA] because of what you might say. [CHUCKLE]

AA: Claro. Sure.


FD: [UI] Pero, creeme, Alex. No te han [UI] But believe me, Alex. They haven't
destruido. Por ...Creeme, no te han destroyed you. For ...Believe me, they haven't
destruido del lado venezolano, que destroyed you from the Venezuelan side, which
era lo mas facil. Lo mas facil era. would have been the easiest. It was the easiest.

AA: Frank, me destruyeron. Escuchame. Frank, they destroyed me. Listen to me. My
Mis compaiiias en Venezuela.. .A mi companies in Venezuela.. .I was.. . [UI] Venuz
me ... [LTI] Venuz Supply, me Supply, they canceled a hundred and eighty
cancelaron ciento ochenta mil thousand dollars, purchase orders...they
dolares, ordenes de compra.. .todas canceled all of them. And what ...what they owe
me las cancelaron. Y lo ...lo que me me, they're going to pay through the United
deben, te lo van a pagar por States. No ...In other words, "We don't
Estados Unidos. No ... no ...0 sea, even want to see you again."
''no te queremos ver mas nunca,

FD: Alejandro, me cancelaron a mi Alejandro, they closed all my accounts from
todas las cuentas donde te ...mande where I...sent you money. All of them. All of
plata a ti. Todas. Todas. Hoy. them. Today.

AA: Ah, ah, jsi? iPor mi? Oh, oh, yes? Because of me?

FD: Si. Por Venuz Supply. Venuz Yes. Because of Venuz Supply. Venuz Supply,
Supply, Lita, Commerce Bank. Lita, Commerce Bank. All of them. Where
Todas. Donde aparece Alejandro Alejandro Antonini appears and
Antonini, y CommerceBank CommerceBank closed the accounts. That's
cancelaron las cuentas. Eso no not ...that's not the ...The world didn't come to
es ...eso no es el ...Eso no se acabo an end, brother. The world didn't come to an
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

el mundo, hermano. No se acabo el end because of that. No, the world didn't come
mundo por eso. No, no se acabo el to an end. Because you can't turn that back,
mundo. Porque no puedes devolver because that can't be fixed. It's necessary to do
eso, porque eso no se puede a set-up again and start over. In other words,
remediar. Hay que volver a hacer un you're already past that mess. Now what
set-up y volver a arrancar. 0 sea, concerns me that it doesn't get worse.
ese pe'o ya lo hiciste. Ahorita lo que That's all. The decision that you want to make,
me interesa que no se te ponga you're going to make it at the end. But keep in
peor. Eso es todo. Tu la decision mind.. .that your situation can get worse ...if you
que tu quieras hacer la vas a don't appoint a lawyer, be it the gentleman or
hacer a la final. Pero ten en be it the ones who visited you on behalf. ..
cuenta.. .que tu situacion puede ser
peor no nombras un abogado,
bien sea el seiior o bien sea 10s que
te visitaron de parte ...

MM: Ya. Yo ... Okay. I...

FD: tu hermana. ...of your sister.

NIM: ...yo creo estar ...yo creo estar ...I think that I'm ...I think that I'm understanding
entenhiendo un poquito a 61. Y...y him a little. And ...and let's clarify here. If he
aqui vamos a aclarar. Si el te appoints you as his attorney.. .that means that
nombra a ti abogado ...eso implica tomorrow.. .he.. .and...and you defend him. ..
que maiiana ...el ...y...y tu lo does that mean that tomorrow you ...that
defiendes...jeso imp1ica que tu tomorrow he can't tell the truth?
maiiana ...que el maiiana no pueda
decir la verdad?

GL: Tu puedes decir ... You can say ...

AA: No puedo. I can't.

GL:, para. Para. Primero, es ... si ...uh, stop. Stop. First, it's ...if he can, uh ...
puede, eh ...por el peligro que because of the danger of telling the truth.
implica decir la verdad.

MM: No, no, no, no, no por el peligro. No, no, no, no, not because of the danger.

GL: Pero [UI] But [UI]
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

MM: Sinoque... Just that.. .

GL: Bueno.. .correcto. El. ..ahora va con Okay ...right. He goes now with immunity from
la eximicion de prisibn ... prison ...

MM: Aja.

GL:, y con la espontanea que ...he is ...uh, and with the voluntary appearance
no im ...complica a nadie. which doesn't ...complicate anybody.

MM: Aja.

GL: Cuando le de la gana, dice, When ...he feels like it and says, "Mister, I want
"Seiior, quiero ampliar esto. to expand this. And ...previously I was afraid,
Y...aquellas veces yo tenia miedo y whatever. That's why I didn't do it. This is the
que s6 yo. Por eso no lo hice. La truth."
verdad es esta."

FD: 0 sea, tie ...No estas amarrado In other words ...You're not ...y ou aren't tied
a no decirla. down to not say it.

GL: Vos pod& cambiar la ...tu version You can change the ...y our version whenever
cuando quieras. you want.

MM: Son lo ...0 sea, 61...61 no. .. They're the ...In other words, he ...he won't ...

GL: Porque. .. Because.. .

MM: ...el hecho ... ...the fact ...

GL: Lull

FD : El hecho de que te defiendan no The fact of being defended doesn't mean that
dice que no lo puedas decir. you can't say it.
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

GL: diferencia de aqui...el.. .el ac. .. ...the difference with here ...the ...the acc...
imputado en la Argentina, no accused in Argentina doesn't render a
declara bajo juramento. statement under oath.

MM: Aqui si. Here, yes.

GL: No ...Eh, por eso. No hay perjurio. No ...Uh, that's why. There's no perjury. In
0 sea, que tu puedes dar una other words, you can give one version today ...
version hoy ...

MM: Y ampliar maiiana. And elaborate on it tomorrow.

GL: ...y. ..despuCs cambiarla maiiana. ...and.. .then change it tomorrow. Uh.. .the
Eh version que des hoy va a ser version that you give today is going to be very
muy light y no creo que.. . light and I don't think that ...

FD : Mas, no va a estar va a estar Moreover, it's not going to be's not going to
reflejada con el origen. Tu version be reflected in its origin. Your version is ...will
es a estar mas reflejada con la be better reflected with form than with origin.
forma que con el origen. Tu lo que What you have to say is the real truth. The real
tienes que decir es la verdad truth is that nobody gave you a form to fill out.
verdadera. La verdad verdadera es And the real truth is that they told you it was an
que nadie te dio una planilla pa' que infraction. Until the media made you take off
tu la declararas. Y la verdad running.
verdadera es que te dijeron que era
una infraccion. Hasta que 10s medios
te hicieron salir corriendo.

MM: Y la verdad verdadera es que tu lo And the real truth is that you were carrying it.
llevabas. Pero tienes que decir But don't have to say that was yours.
que ...era tuyo. Y maiiana ...te fa110 el And tomorrow ...the Venezuelan government
gobierno venezolano, te fa110 el ... fails you ...

MM: ...g obierno argentino, jverdad? ...the Argentine government fails you, right? I
Quiero ampliar. want to expand.

FD: [UI] tu la llevabas porque el [UI] you were carrying it because the Argentine
argentino te dijo ... told you ...
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape -Number / CD: R2a

MM: Es verdad. Yo fui el que la metio, It's true. I was the one who took it in, but that
per0 esa vaina era asi, asi, asi, thing was like that, like that, like that, plus ...
mas ...

FD: Te la dio fulano de tal. So and so gave it to you.

MM: ...asi, asi, asi. that, like that, like that.

FD: Exacto. Exactly.

AA: Y.. .y, jquien paga todo eso? And ...and who pays for all that? Meanwhile,
Mientras, ~ C O le ~ pago
O al doctor? how do I pay the doctor [attorney]?

MM: jC6m0 es la cosa? What's the deal?

AA : jQuiCn le paga a1 doctor mientras? Who pays the doctor meanwhile?

MM: No, el doctor ... No, the doctor ...

FD: No. No.

MM: ...esta pago por.. .por... paid by.. .by...

FD: Tu le puedes firmar ahorita. You can sign now.

MM: ...por...

FD: El doctor te hace una exoneracibn The doctor will give you a release saying that
de que tu no le debes nada. you owe him nothing.

MM: Mira. El doctor te puede decir. Look. The doctor can tell you. They submitted
Pasaron presupuesto honorarios. an estimate. "Doctor. Right?" "They were
"Doctor. jcierto?" "Fueron approved, right?" Even paid in advance, so
aprobados, jcierto?" Hasta that ...
adelantados, asi que ...

FD: Cierto. Right.
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
GL: Eh, se si fueron aprobados Uh, I don't know if they were approved
porque eso lo habla [UI] per0 ... because that's up to [UI:] but ...

MM: Si. Si, si, si, si, si... Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes ...



MM: Yo hable con [UI:] I spoke with [UI]

FD : ~Viste,Alex? Tu tienes que... You see, Alex? You have to.. .

MM: 0 sea, el esta aqui. In other words, he's here.

FD : ...cobrar ahi la vain ...tu no pagas ...get the money for that thi don't pay
nada. anything.

GL: Esta ...esta... This...this ...

FD: Claro. Sure.

GL: la primera garantia. Que...que the first guarantee. That.. .that they're
estan interesados por vos. interested in you.

MM: Y yo no soy funcionario, yo soy And I'm not an official, I'm another Venezuelan
otro abogado venezolano. attorney.

AA: Yo lo sC. I know.

MM: Me ...te ...ientiendes? Entonces ... you understand? Then ...uh ...When they
este ...Cuando a mi me Ilamaron ... called me ...

AA: Okey. Yo firmo...Y, iquien le Okay. I sign...And who guarantees my wi ...?
garantiza a mi es ...? Y voy y de And suddenly I'm jailed.
repente caigo preso.

MM: Aja.

AA: Yo necesito g...garantias pa' mi I need a g...guarantee for my family here. I
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

familia aqui, vale. Yo necesito que need the government to give me something for
el ...el gobierno me de algo pa' mi my family here.
familia aqui.

MM: Ya. Yo ...yo le decia a el. Esto ...esto Okay. I...I was telling him. What ...what I'm
que yo te estoy diciendo a ti, no se telling you, I'm not telling anybody. But if he
lo estoy diciendo a nadie. Pero si el does his work like he must, and I'm sure he's
hace su trabajo como lo tiene que going to do it better ...and if we have the
hacer, que estoy seguro que lo va a political support that we would have ...that we
hacer mejor ...y si nosotros tenemos have to have, and Argentina says that it's an
el apoyo politico que lo tengamos ... infraction... the punishment for the infraction is
que tenemos que tener, y Argentina half of the money and you come back with the
dice que eso es una infraccion four hundred thousand dollars. It''s a...itls
pena por la infraccion es la mitad a...
del dinero y tu te vienes con 10s
cuatrocientos mil dolares. Es
una una ...

FD: L Q U garantia
~ quieres, Alejandro? What guarantee do you want, Alejandro?

MM: una tonteria. Pero ...'s silliness. But ...

FD: ~Monetaria? Monetary?

AA: Si, claro. Yes, sure.

FD: ~Cuatrocientosmil dolares? Four hundred thousand dollars?

AA: No, no quiero cuatrocientos mil. Yo No, I don't want four hundred thousand. I want
quiero mas. Quiero mil quinientos. more. I want five hundred thousand. I want a
Quiero un millon. No si. Quiero ...Y million. I don't know. I want ...And if they take
si me llevan preso pa'' me arrested to Argentina.

FD: ~ C u a n t oproduces tu a1 aiio? How much do you produce in a year?

AA: Bueno... Well ...

MM: iUn millon de dolares a1 aiio? A million dollars yearly?
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

AA: En ...entonces... Th ...then ...

FD: Bueno. Se...eso es paso dos. Okay. That's step two. You understand?

AA: Paso dos, iquien me lo va a dar? Step two, who's going to give it to me?

FD: No, paso dos quiere decir ...No te lo No, step two means ...I can't tell you today.
puedo decir hoy.

MM: Okey, no importa. Okay, it doesn't matter.

FD: Seria irresponsable. It would be irresponsible.

MM: Pero no importa. Pero, yo si ...yo si But it doesn't matter. But, I can ...I can transmit
puedo transmitirlo. Entonces ... it. So...

FD: Solo, si ...solo, si vas preso. Only if. ..only if you go to jail.

MM: Entonces, oyeme. Then, listen to me.

AA: No, solo si ...solo si vas preso, no. No, only if. ..only if you land in jail, no. Frank.
Frank. Es muy facil. Yo firmo y lo It's very easy. I sign and they deposit it, Frank.
depositan, Frank. Solo si solo Only if. ..not only if. .. Then I sign a letter and
si ... Despuks yo firmo una carta y you want me to return it. But if. ..but ...the most
quieres que lo devuelva. Pero cert... What? What's going to happen, Frank?
si ...pero ...lo mas segu ...iQ ue? iQuk
va a pasar, Frank?

FD: Yo te lo garantizo. 1'11 guarantee it.


AA: No, Frank. No, que ...que lo dig.. . No, Frank. No, that ...that ...


AA: ...que lo diga alguien. ...somebody says it.

FD: Yo te lo garantizo. 1'11 guarantee it.
File Number: MM-109803
Date/Time Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

AA: Bueno, dame la transferencia, pues. Well, give me the wire transfer, then.

FD: ~CuBntonecesitas que te transfiera? How much do you need to have wire
Dime. transferred? Tell me.


AA: Yo ...pero, iquien te lo va a dar a ti? I...but who's going to give it to you?

MM: Tii quieres ...tu quieres ... You want to want to ...

FD : No me interesa quien me lo d6. I don't care who gives it to me. Tell me the
Dime el monto. amount.

MM: ...nos tomamos un cafe ...tu y yo en ...we'll have a coffee...y ou and I at the counter
la barra.

GL: &hrn? Uhm?

MM: Vamos a la barra alla. Let's go to the counter over there.

FD: Dime el monto, Alejandro. Yo te lo Tell me the amount, Alejandro. I'll wire transfer
transfiero mafiana. Dime la cuenta it tomorrow. Tell me Jackie's account that I'll
de Jackie que te lo transfiero. Dime wire transfer it. Tell me the amount that you ...
el monto que tu me ...

AA: ~ T estas
u seguro que no voy a ir Are you sure that I'm not going to prison,
preso, Frank? Frank?

FD: No estoy seguro que... I'm not sure that. ..

AA: Sabes... You know ...

FD : vayas a ir preso. No te voy a're not going to prison. I won't lie to you.
mentir. No te he mentido ni una vez. I've never lied to you. I've never lied to you.
Ni una vez te he mentido.

AA: Bueno, entonces, transfikeme un Okay, then, wire me a million dollars. To leave
millon de dolares. Pa' dejar a mi my family in peace.
familia tranquila.
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

FD: Okey . Okay.

AA: Y yo me calo todo. And I'll swallow the whole thing.

FD: Okey . Okay.

AA: Yo te doy la cuenta. 1'11 give you the account.

FD: Dame la cuenta. D h e l a hoy, me la Give me the account. Give it to me today, send
mandas en mensaje de texto. me a text message.

AA: Okey. Okay.

FD: ~Oiste? You heard me?

AA: Y ...y...y no voy a ir preso. And. ..and ...and I'm not going to jail.

FD : No te lo estoy garantizando, cofio. I'm not giving you any guarantee, damn it. The
Lo unico que te estoy garantizando only thing I can guarantee is for you to defend
es que tu te me defiendas. ~ S a b e s yourself. Do you know what I don't want? For
que no quiero? Que vayas preso. you to go to jail. That you go without a defense
Que vayas sin defensa y que seas lawyer and that you become disposable. That's
desechable. Eso es lo que no what 1 don't want. That's all, pal. You
quiero. Eso es todo, gordito. i M e understand? I don't want ...In other words ...
entiendes? Yo no quiero que...0 later on you'll realize it with your history and
sea...despues lo realizaras tu con tu you'll see... how everything was done here. But
historia y v e r h tu ...c6mo se hizo you haven't died haven't died, because
todo aqui. Pero t 5no te has we managed to rope Rafael into this mess.
muerto ...tu no te has muerto, porque Otherwise, we'd be dead, you and us.
logramos pegar a Rafael en este
pe'o. Porque si no estuvierarnos
muertos, tu y nosotros.

AA: LA Rafael Ramirez? Y iporquk el Rafael Ramirez? And why's he washing his
ahora se lava las manos? hands now?

FD: Rafael Ramirez no se esta lavando Rafael Ramirez isn't washing his hands. He can
las manos. Ya no puede lavarse las no longer wash his hands. Because he feels...
manos. Porque siente...que su that his assistant was the one who carried the
asistente fue el que llevo las maletas. suitcases. He can't wash his hands because the
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a --

El no puede lavarse las manos President already found out that Rafael's
porque el Presidente ya sup0 que assistant was the one who carried the suitcase
h e el asistente de Rafael el que on that plane. Rafael already knew. But he
llevo las maletas en ese avion. Ya didn't know that before. Remember that he
Rafael si estaba enterado. Pero didn't know? I asked you to give me ... [UI]
antes 61 no lo sabia. jTe acuerdas
que 61 no lo sabia? Yo te pedi que
me dieras ... [UI]


AA: Y Tarek ...y Tarek, este s...jlo sabe And Tarek ...and Tarek, this one ...does he
tambien? know, too?

FD: Claro. Sure.

AA: se llama el? jTarek qui? What's his name? Tarek what?

FD: Tarek A1 Aissami. Tarek A1 Aissami.

AA: Y jque es lo que es? Que tu me And what is he? You told me.

FD: Vice Ministro de Seguridad Deputy Minister for Citizen Security.

AA: Eso ...eso es como... That ...that is like ...

FD: Tu me estas grabando, jno? Bueno, You're recording me, right? Well, pal, I can
marico, yo puedo preguntar. Igualito ask. Just like you. But ...Can't I ask you?
que tu. Pero ...jQue no te lo puedo

AA: Esta bien, per0 ...pero jeso es como That's fine, but. ..but that's like what.. .? That's
O como que...?
que ...? ~ E S es like what.. .?

FD: Eso es, charno. Te lo voy a dejar That's the way it is, pal. 1'11 leave it at that. He's
asi. Es un carajo sano. an okay guy.

AA: No, vale. No, man.
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number 1 CD: R2a

FD: Treinta y tres afios. Ya va. Que el Thirty-three years. Wait a minute. The
Presidente le tiene carifio. Y el President likes him. And receives him in
Presidente lo atiende en persona. person. That's the whole power of this kid. And
Eso es todo el poder de este the President told him, "You know what? Take
chamo. Y que el Presidente le dijo, charge of justice in Venezuela. Take charge of
" ~ S a b equk?
s Enciirgate de la the jails, take charge of the PTJ, take charge of
justicia en Venezuela. Enciirgate de Disip.Youlre the top boss of all that shit."
las carceles, enciirgate de la PTJ,
encargate de la Disip. Tu eres el jefe
miximo de toda esa mierda."

AA: Ah, per0 no es el Fiscal General. Oh, but he's not the Attorney General.

FD: No, Alejandro. Es peor que el No, Alejandro. He's worse than the Attorney
Fiscal General porque el General es General because the General is an asshole in
un huevon en Venezuela. Venezuela.

AA: Ah, jsi? Oh, yes?

FD: Este chamo es el Vice Ministro de This kid is the Deputy Minister for Citizen
Seguridad Ciudadana. 0 sea, 61 es Security. In other words, he's the one who ...
el que ...manda sobre las policias. commands the police forces.

AA: Uh-huh. 0 sea, en la Disip ...todas Uh-huh. In other words, in Disip ...they all
reportan a 61. report to him.

FD: A 61. To him.

AA: 0 sea, que en Venezuela no tendria In other words, I wouldn't have a problem in
yo rollo. Venezuela.

FD: No, Alejandro. Te estoy diciendo. No, Alejandro. I've been telling you. In the
En dado caso que vayas a tener un event that you were to have a problem in
rollo en Venezuela, el origen no voy Venezuela, I wouldn't be the cause of it.
a ser yo.

AA: iQu6 hago, entonces? What do I do, then?

FD: Lo que te diga tu conciencia, Whatever your conscience dictates, pal. We're
chamo. Estarnos en ese punto, at that point, Alejandro.
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a


AA: Bueno, dile que venga el abogado. Okay, tell the lawyer to come. Call him
Llamalo a...llSunalo ahi que venga. him over here.

FD: MoisCs. Dame ...mindame la cuenta. Moises. Give me ...send me the bill. You hear?

AA: Te la ...te mando la cuenta. A,.. I'll...I'll send you the bill. To...Okay, that's fine.
Bueno, esta bien. Y ...y...y para And ...and ...and to legalize that power of
legalizar ese poder, jno tengo que ir attorney, don't I have to go to the Amer ...
a la embajada amer ...argentina ...? Argentine Embassy?

FD: jC6m0? What?

AA: NO hay que ir a...a un escribano, Isn't it necessary to go to a special notary,
embajada arn...argentina y eso? Am.. .Argentine Embassy and that?

MM: No, eso ...eso deberia ser lo No, that ...that should be the right thing. But
correcto. Pero eso va a despertar... that's going to trigger ...tomorrow the embassy's
ya maiiana el d...el escribano de la special notary is going to call Argentina and the
embajada, va a llamar a Argentina y mess is going to be stopped and I'm going to
se va a parar el pe'o y le voy a decir say that you signed such and such. Then, the
que firmaste, tal. Entonces, va a Argentine press will show up. We'll do that
venir la prensa argentina. Eso lo with a regular notary.
hacemos con un notario normal.

GL: Si. Yes.

MM: Lo llevamos a1 Coung Clerk aqui... We take it to the County Clerk here ...

GL: Claro. Right.

NIM: ...y ahi lo legalizan. De ahi lo ...and they legalize it. From there we take it
llevamos ...a la embajada ...deja que the embassy...let them legalize...uh ...the ...the ...
legalicen.. .este.. .el.. .el...el the document and then we send it. Don't you
documento y despuCs lo mandamos. show up at the ...
No te vayas a apersonar tu en la ...

AA: No. Yo no puedo ir a Miami. No. I can't go to Miami.
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

MM: Por eso. That's why.

AA : Yo no puedo ir a...Yo no puedo I can't go to ...I can't be here. You know? He's
estar aqui. ~ S a b e s ?El me dice Lpor asking me why I chose this place. Because this
que escogi este sitio? Porque este has been the only place ...where I have had
ha sido el unico sitio ...d6nde yo he meetings and I haven't been recognized. I spent
tenido reuniones que no me han the week-end with my family at a place on
reconocido. Yo estuve el fin de the Sunrise, and a Venezuelan told me,
semana con mi familia en un sitio en that's the one they're looking for. Then, they
la ...en Sunrise, y un venezolano me ask me why I'm not in Mi Key Biscayne.
dijo, aquel que estin buscando. Why am I in West Palm Beach? Why am I
Entonces, me preguntan porque no further up there? Because nobody knows me.
estoy en Mi ...en Key Biscayne.
LPor que estoy en West Palm
Beach? LPor que estoy mas arriba?
Porque no me conoce nadie.

GL : No. Si, te tienes que cuidar como ... No. Yes, you have to look after yourself like ...

MM: Mira. Independientemente de todo Listen. Aside from all this ...believe me, and
esto ...creeme y nosotros, lo we ...uh, we understand's reasonable that
entendemos...que es 16gico que tu you don't trust anybody.
no confies en nadie.

AA : Claro, porque la traicion que yo Sure, because the betrayal that I [Ul']

MM: Eso ...eso es. .. That ...that is ...

AA: La traicion que yo recibi ... The betrayal that I endured ...

MM: ...eso es... ...that is ...

AA: ...h e la mas ...grande del mundo. ...was the most ...biggest in the world.

MM: Eso es absolutamente [UI] That is absolutely [UI]


AA: Porque yo no hice un coiio malo. Because I didn't do a damn thing bad.
File Number: MM-109803
Date/Time Recorded: 08/27/07
-T Number / CD: R2a

Yo lo que hice de marico ... What I did was a fag...being educated, I
de educado, agarrk una mierda grabbed a piece of shit ...they told me, "Is that
dijeron, " ~ E s oes tuyo?" No. No, yours?" No. IVo, no. I do that ...there was
no. Hago asi habia nadie. nobody. "Put it there. Open up." And ...and then
"P6ngala ahi. Abra ahi." Y...y there's Claudio behind and I do that and he
despuks esta Claudio atras y hago does like that. No. I swear ...
asi y 61 hace asi. No. Te lo juro ...

MM: Este ...eso lo entendemos. Ahora. Si Uh ...we understand that. Now. If this isn't the
esto no es lo mas cercano a una closest thing to persecution, that you have
persecucibn, que tu has tenido.. .o had. other words, so much ...they're aware
sea, tanto ...estan conscientes de que that they abandoned you and let you that
te abandonaron y te dejaron...q ue now ...they've used me to chase you ...and I
ahorita han utilizado a mi para have used Franklin and Carlos to chase you.
perseguirte ...y yo he utilizado a To be able make progress with this matter.
Franklin y a Carlos pa' perseguirte. For you that has to be a [UI] I'm here,
Para poder ...salir adelante con este retained ...
asunto. Eso pa' ti tiene que ser un
[UI] Yo estoy aqui contratado ...
por.. .

AA: No, yo me siento bien por ti. De No, I feel good because of you. Truly.

MM: Yo ...yo estoy contratado aqui por I...I1mhere retained by PDVSA. I made a link
PDVSA. Hice un link con ...Yo with ...I...I challenge you to veri fy...this man's
te ...te reto a que tu verifiques ...las credentials. In other words, there isn't a
credenciales de este seiior. 0 sea, professional, because of his credibility, with the
no hay un profesional, por su media in Argentina. There isn't an individual
credibilidad, eso pensando en 10s with his moral standing, as regards the ...also
medios en Argentina. No hay un with the press and in the judicial circles
personaje con su solvencia moral themselves. In other words, we found you
pensando en la ...tambikn en la the ...the Maradona of the ...of Argentina's
prensa y en la ...y en la propia criminal law to be on your side. Damn, aren't I
justicia. 0 sea, te buscamos a1...a1 [UII
Maradona del ...del derecho penal
argentino para que estuviera a tu
lado. CoAo, jno te estoy [UI.]
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
9 Number / CD: R2a

AA: Y, jquk va a pasar con la prensa ... And what's going to happen with the press ...
ahora...? now ...?

GL: Eh.. .cuando haga esa presentacion.. . Uh.. .when I make that appearance.. .they're
me van a busc ar...un par de veces, going to fetch me...a couple of times, I'm going
yo voy a contestar, usted quiere... to answer, you want ...uh, two representatives
eh, dos representantes y...y and ...and then ...

UF: Another one? Another one?

GL: ...le voy a cortar 10s... ...I'm going to cut off the ...

MM: Yes, please. Yes, please.

GL : ...10s viveres, jno? Porque ...the supplies, right? Because to maintain you.. .
mantenerlo. ..

MM: j Agua? Water?

GL: ...mantenerlo en la... maintain you in the ...

UF: NO? No?

GL: ...permanentemente alto, no se ...permanently elevated, is not possible. But to
puede. Pero una vez si decir que finally say yes, that you want to appear and...
vos te querks presentar y...y...y...y and.. .and...and that's why you have appointed
que por eso tu has nombrado a me and, but, you want to appear with immunity
mi y, pero, querCs presentarte con la from prison and not ...with an arrest merely for
eximicion de prision y no ...con una an infraction. That is, I come out for a media
captura nada mas que por una defense ...the first time and then, good-bye.
infraccion. Es decir, salgo a hacer Because if not we're in the papers every day.
una defensa mediatica.. .la primera And ...and you're being demolished every
vez y despuCs, chao. Porque si no day. It's not good for you. But it's important to
seguimos en 10s diarios todos 10s make it known that you want to present
dias. Y...y a vos te ...te estas yourself.
demoliendo todos 10s dias. No te
conviene. Pero que se sepa que te
querCs presentar es importante.
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number I CD:
-- R2a

MM: Ahora, el poder ... Now, the power of attorney ...

GL: Alla sali6... It came out over there ...

MM: ...que tu le vas a dar a 61 es ...that you're giving him is revocable. So, let's
revocable. Entonces, vamos a suppose...tomorrow he grants ...the ...not even...
suponer ...maiiana le concede ...el ...
ni siquiera.. .

AA: [UI]

MM: el poder. La designacion. ...the power of attorney. The appointment.
Mafiana te da la designacion. Ehh... Tomorrow he gives you the appointment.
Uhh.. .

AA: Y lo podemos hacer aqui en Fort And we can do it here in Fort Lauderdale.

MM: Lo podemos hacer aqui en Fort We can do it here in Fort Lauderdale. They
Lauderdale. Pasan y no ...y no tiene pass it and ...and he needn't be there, I don't
que estar 61, no tengo que estar yo. have to be there. What is necessary is ...the
Tiene que estar ...el modelo que yo draft that I'll send you. And you can do it at
te voy a pasar. Y hi lo haces en tu home if you want.
casa si quieres.

AA: ~ T quieres
u mi ...mi e-mail? You want my e-mail?

MM: No, ahorita me lo das. Este ...y... No, give it me shortly. Uh ...and...


GL: Te aclaro otra cosa. Let me clarify something else. The...the
abogado...a1 abogado vos lo echas lawyer fire the lawyer in a jiffy. That is...
por soplido. Es decir ...presentas you submit this writ and the ...the following day
este escrito y a1...a1 dia siguiente ya he's no longer your lawyer.
no es mas tu abogado.

MM: Si. Primero ... Yes. First ...

GL: No es un poder de esos ...un poder. It's not one of those powers of attorney ...a
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
Es ...designo abogado, nada mas. power of attorney. It's ...I appoint an attorney,
nothing else.

MM: [UI]

GL: 0 sea, que a1 dia siguiente, eh ... In other words, the next day, uh ...I want
quiero otro abogado. another lawyer.

MM: Entonces, si dentro del plazo So, if within a reasonable period, you see that
prudencial, tu ves que no funciono the ...the crap didn't work, that it hasn't come
la vaina, que no ha salido la..:lo out...what's supposed to be, you send him to
que es, lo mandas pa' el carajo y ya. hell and that's that. But you won't lose
Pero no vas a perder nada. anything. Worse off than now ...appearing to be
Peor que ahorita...q ue apareces a fugitive, you won't be. What shall we do?
como profugo, no vas a estar. iQu6 We're going to ask for immunity from prison ...
vamos a hacer? Vamos a pedir la, analyze what he's telling you about ...
eximicion de. prision.. .em... about ...presenting a writ ...What's the name of
analiza lo que 61 te dice de the writ?
presentar un escrito ...iComo se
llama el escrito?

GL: Presentacion Esponthnea. Voluntary Appearance.

MM: Una Presentacion Espontanea. A Voluntary Appearance.

GL: Pero para eso tenemos que, But for that we need, first, to have the file and
primero, tener el expediente y then a...
despu6s a un ...


MM: Ahh, okey. Ohh, okay.


AA : Okey. Okay.

GL : ...para ver ...qu6 version damos. see...what version we provide.

MM: Okey Okay.
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

GL: Eh, que ...q ue inventamos. Uh, what ...what we can make up.

AA : Okey Okay.

GL: Pero sin el expediente no But without the file ...we can't ...jump into the
podemos ...tiramos a la pileta. Pero, pool. Moreover, the Voluntary Appearance,
ademas, la Presentacion unlike immunity from prison, which I can
Espontinea, a diferencia de la request ...only you can sign the Voluntary
Eximicion de Prision, que la puedo Appearance.
pedir yo Presentacion
Espontanea solo la podis firmar

AA: Okey . Okay.

GL : 0 sea, que ...yo no puedo ir con la In other words ...I cannot go with the Voluntary
Presentacion Espontanea por vos. Appearance on your behalf.

MM: Pero, tu la puedes llevar per0 no la But you can take it but you can't sign it.
puedes suscribir.

GL: Claro. Exacto. 0 sea, que es Right. Exactly. In other words, it's not
Presentacion Espontinea, es Voluntary Appearance, it's a defense if I
defensa si digo yo ...algo yo. say ...something.

AA: De que si ...por si o por si tengo que That if. matter what, I have to be in
estar en Argentina. Argentina.

GL: Claro. Pero ...por si o por si ... Sure. But matter what ...

MM: NO, no, no, no. no. No, no, no, no, no.

GL: Perd6n. No, perd6n. Por si o por 1 Sorry. No, sorry. No matter what ...

AA: Debo ir a Argentina. I must go to Argentina.

GL: Para. Para la Presentacion Stop. Not for the Voluntary Appearance. Not
Espontanea, no. Para la Eximicion for immunity from prison. Having immunity from
de Prision, no. Teniendo la prison ...we can try what he said ...but I think
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

Eximicion de Prision.. .podemos that before October 2gth,if it were forthcoming,
hacer el intento que dijo el ...pero they won't give it to you. If it's after October
creo que antes del veintiocho de 2tTh,perhaps they'll give you that possibility of
octubre, si saliera, no te lo van a declaring here. But if not, you're going to have
dar. Si es despues del veintiocho de to go to Argentina. But I suppose that by then
octubre, quizas te den la posibilidad we'll have ...
esa de declarar aqui. Pero si no, vas
a tener que ir a la Argentina. Pero
supongo que en ese momento
tendremos.. .

MM: Pero en libertad. 1 But a free man.

GL : ...tendremos garantias. ...we'll have guarantees.

MM: En libertad. Aja. Ahorita, otra cosa A free man. Uh-huh. Now, another thing that ...I
que...yo no entendi. Hoy nos dm... didn't understand. Today they grant us. ..
la Eximicion de Prision. immunity from prison.

GL: Si. Yes.

MM: iEn quC momento puede ser At what point can it be revoked, by the
revocable, por parte del fiscal o del prosecutor or by the court itself. ..?
propio tribunal...?

GL: Eh ...La Eximicion de Prisi6n es Uh ...Immunity from prison can be revoked
revocable suponte que ...comprueba supposing that can be proven that five
que intervinieron cinco personas. people were involved.

MM: Aja.

GL: Entonces, lo hacen.., So, they make it.. .uh, aggravated contraband. ..
contrabando agravado.. .

MM: Yahise[UI] And there [UI]

GL: [UI] 0 comprueban que era para [UI] Or if they prove that it was for
construir un edificio por lavado de construction of a building to launder money. It
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
dinero. Ahi tambien podria ser could also be revoked in that case. If it remains
revocable. Si se mantiene en e... as.. .as...attempted...contraband...uh, as they
en ...en el tentativa con contend can't ever be revoked.
contrabando que.. .eh, que
pretenden puede ser revocable

MM: En la declaracion, i t 6 pusiste ...que In the declaration, did you write ...that it was for
eso era para comprar un inmueble? purchase of a property? Oh, well, that's why
Ah, por eso fue otra version there was another media version that appeared
periodistica que salio por ahi. out there.

AA: La declaracion dice ... The declaration says...

AA: ...exactamente... ...exactly ...

FD: Trajiste la declaracion. You brought the declaration.

AA: Yo la tengo. Te la doy maiiana. No I have it. I'll give it to you tomorrow. It says
dice nada de eso. nothing about that.

GL: iC6m0 es la [UI] How is the [UI]

AA: Dice, u. .. It says...uh ...

MM: No tiene la declaracion. You don't have the declaration.

GL: La declaracion [UI] con la de [UI] The declaration [UI] with the [UI]

MM: El tiene una copia de la declaracion He's got a copy of the declaration that he
que el firmo alla. signed over there.

GL: Ah, la que firm6 alla. Oh, the one he signed over there.
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

MM: Si. I Yes.

FD: LTUla tienes? Do you have it?

GL: Pero, la dec ... But, the dec ...

GL: dec declaracidn que f.. . que ...the declaration that.. .that you signed over
firmaste alla.. . there ...

MM: ~Quieresalgo mas [UI] Do you want something else [UI]

AA: Uh, I'll take another sparkling Uh, I'll take another sparkling water

UF : Okay. Sure. Sir? Okay. Sure. Sir?

MM: ~Quieresotro Diet Coke, tu? Do you want another Diet Coke?
GL: Ehh...Estarnos hablando en serio. Uhh...Welre speaking seriously. I still don't
Todavia no quiero.. . want ...

MM: Okey. Okay.


MM: One more Diet Coke. One more Diet Coke.

UF: One more Diet Coke? One more Diet Coke?

MM: Yes. Please. Yes. Please.

UF: Would you like more cashews or Wouldyou like more cashews or no?

FD: Water. Water.

UF: Just the water? Ice water? Just the water? Iced water?
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

MM: Sparkling water. Sparkling water.

UF : Sparkling water. [UI] Sparkling water. [UI]

GL: For me, too. For me, too.


UF: [UI:] a Diet Coke? [Ul] a Diet Coke?

FD: Lady. Lady.


MM: No te pedi Coca Cola. iNo quieres I didn't order Coca Cola for you. Don't you
Coca Cola? want Coca Cola?


GL: Bueno. Da ...da ...Diet ... Okay. Da ...da...uh ...uh. ..Diet.. .

UF : With the lemon in it? With lemon in it?

FD: No, no, no. Uh... No, no, no. Uh...

GL: Diet Coca Cola. Diet Coca Cola.

AA: On...on the side. On.,..on the side.

FD: [UI] the side. [UI] the side.

AA: On the side. On the side.

UF : Oh, with lemon juice on the side? Oh, with lemonjuice on the side?

AA: Yes. Yes.

UF : Okay. And you want just the San Okay. And you want just the San
Pellegrino without, yeah? Pellegrino without, yeah?
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

AA: Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

UF: You want the Diet and the Sun You want the Diet and the Sun Pellegrino?

MM: Okay. okay.

GL: Ehhh...jquC deciamos? Ehhh...what were we saying?

AA: Moises, y la ...y la parte en Moises, and the ...and the part in Venezuela
Venezuela de...del dinero ...para que about. ..about the money.. .so that the judge.. .
el juez ...porque si las because if. ..if. ..if the elections take place
elecciones se hacen ...p ara decir que say that the money is legal ...wouldn't.. .there be
el dinero es legal.. .jno tendria a risk there?
riesgo ahi?

MM: No, en Venezuela podemos ...o No, in Venezuela we can...either make a
hacer una declaracibn ...o asumir las declaration ...or assume the consequences for
consecuencias de la falta failure to declare a fine. But ... uh,
declaracibn y...pagar una multa. now ...I've been offered twenty times's just
Pero, te.. .eh, ahorita.. .a mi me han that I don't want to do anything ...uh, that isn't
ofrecido veinte veces ...lo que pasa well thought out...give us the thing predated and
que no quiero hacer nada, que give a date ...uh, the date when you left as if you
no este bien pensado ...darnos con declared your.. .
fecha anterior la vaina y poner un, la fecha de la salida tuya
como que tu declaraste tu ...

FD: Que lo declaraste... That you declared it.. .

MM: ...que sacaste la plata. ...that you took the money out.


AA: A la ...a la planilla. Eso me lo dijo The ...the form. Frank told me that.

MM: jSi? Pero.. .como ese poder todavia Yes? But ...since we still have that power of
lo mantenemos, entonces vamos a attorney, then we're going to consider
ver ...a pensar bien todos 10s...10s all of the ...the drawbacks and then see how to
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a --


bemoles de la vaina y despues do it. Because then ...and that's step two, we
vemos como lo hacemos. Porque have to weigh its possible tax implications here.
ahi si ...y eso es paso dos, tenemos So, I also ...we sit down with your lawyers here
que ver las consecuencias tributarias and take a look at the thing. Look, if we do
que eso pudiera tener aqui. this, what happens from a tax point of view,
Entonces, tambien, yo ...nos how much is it, how ...? We do nothing that
sentarnos con tus abogados aqui y tomorrow...we couldn't ...roll back.
vemos la vaina. Mira, si hacemos
esto, iquC pasa del punto de vista
tributario, cuinto es, como...? No
hacer nada que mafiana no.. .no se
pueda. ..echar pa' atras.

FD: Pero eso es paso dos. But that's step two.

MM: Pero eso es paso dos. Ahorita, hay But that's step two. Right now, there's a
una privativa de libertad en tu detention order out for you. That's what you
contra, coiio. Eso es lo que th tienes need to ...
que. ..

FD: Que lo que yo quiero es que puedas What I want is for you to be able to go to Key
ir a Key Biscayne ...y caminar en la Biscayne...and to walk the streets, as they tell
calle, que te digan de todo ...pero no you all kinds of things ...but no policeman can
puede llegar un policia y decirte ... come and tell you ..."Come here."
"VCngase pa' aca."

MM: iMe entiendes? You understand me?

AA: Si. Yes.

FD: Es todo. That's all.

MM: Eso. That's it.

FD: Que nos digan de todo, no lo vas a You won't avoid them telling us all kinds of
evitar. things.
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

MM: Porque ... Because ...


MM: ...ese el, eh, riesgo ... ...that's the, uh, risk ...

GL: [UI] la cosa mediatica ... [UI:] the media thing ...

MM: Ese es un riesgo que comes tu ... That's a risk that you run.. .

GL: ...que es.. .en.. .en seis meses ...that is...will disappear in six months.

MM: ...eso es un riesgo que come el ...that's a risk that the Venezuelan government
gobierno venezolano [UI:] runs [Ul]

GL: Porque todo el mundo se [UI] Because everybody [UI]

MM: Porque si a ti te agarran ahorita, Because if they grab you now, what would
ique pasa? happen?

AA: Preso.. .si, ahi si puedo.. .ahi me Go to jail ...y es, then I'd ...I'll go crazy, for sure.
vuelvo loco, seguramente.

MM: ~Entiendes?Y nadie quiere que eso You understand? And nobody wants that to
pase. iUhm? happen. Uhm?

GL: La declaracion, ehh...que f... el The ...the declaration, uhh ...that ...the statement
acta que firmaste, ique...q ue dice? that you signed, what ...what does it say?

AA: Dice...Bueno, en la fecha de hoy ... It says ...Well, on today's date the airport ...
en el aeropuerto n...ehh... uhh...

MM: Aeroparque. Aeroparque.

GL : Aeroparque. Aeroparque.

AA: ...Aeroparque.. .eh, fueron, eh.. . ...Aeroparque.. .uh, seven hundred and ninety
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

decomisados setecientos noventa thousand dollars were seized. ..uhhh...
mil d6lares ...ehhh...

FD: ~Setecientossesenta mil [UI] Seven hundred and sixty thousand [UI]


AA: ...ciento noventa mil ... ...a hundred and ninety thousand ...

GL: Bueno, no impo impo Alright, it doesn't matt... it doesn't matt
importa. No importa. doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.

MM: [UI]

AA: Okey. Y se que, y dice...Esto Okay. And ...I don't know what, and it says...
se considera una infraccion ...y...y This is considered an infraction ...and ...and it
dice estuvo oculto ni oculto says. wasn't concealed nor.. .nor concealed
ni ...jcomo es? nor.. . what?

GL : Ehhh ... uhhh.. .

MM: Ni ardid ni engafio. Neither ruse nor deceit.

GL: con ardid ni con engaiio. ...nor with ruse or deceit.

AA: Si, asi decia ...este, y...nada. Porque Yes, that's what it said ...uh, and...nothing.
yo me acuerdo qu ...El que ellos Because I remember that ...The one they
querian hacer ...vino Ali, vino un jefe wanted to do ...Ali came, a boss they sent
que mandaron ellos, vi ...una seiiora came, there ca.. .a fat woman...
gorda.. .

MM: Si. Yes.

AA: ...que mandaron supuestamente esta ...apparently sent by these people.

MM: Si. Yes.
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
AA: Me dijo, mira. Firma esto. Cuando She told me, look. Sign this. When you come
pases maiiana ...esto no existe. Y by tomorrow ...this won't exist. And it was all a
todo h e mentira. Porque esa... lie. Because that ...

GL: Eh, per0 ... Uh, but.. .

AA: ...declaracion ni siquiera existia. Era, ...declaration didn't even exist. It was, uh ...that
eh ...esa era una cosa que hicieron was something they made up on the computer.
en computadora ellos. Y lo And they signed it ...the ...the the customs
firmaron ... el ...el ...yo...el agente de agent ...the two policemen. No. Myself, the
aduana ...10s dos policias. No. Yo, el Customs agent.. .
agente de aduana ...

FD: [UI] acta que nadie ...nunca te dio [UI] document that nobody ...never gave you a
una planilla para declarar? form in order to declare?

AA: No. No.

MM: Pero eso es facil. Las otras But that's easy. The other people that came on
personas que venian en el ...en el the...on the plane ...did they sign the
avion ...i firmaron declaracion? declaration?

AA: Nadie. Nobody.

FD: ru11

MM: Entonces ...esa es la mejor prueba So...that's the best proof that they didn't pass
de que no les dieron planillas out forms because ...the others, even though
porque ...10s otros, aunque no they brought nothing, were supposed to present
trajeran nada, estaban obligados a the declaration.
presentar la declaracion.

FD: iVes? You see?

MM: Y eso es una prueba que [UI] And that's proof.. .that [UI]

AA: Yo no conoz...yo lo que si no sk es I don't kno ...what I don't know is whether the
que si la tiene el piloto o la hizo el pilot has it or whether the pilot made it.
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
T a ~ Number
e 1 CD: R2a


MM: No, per0 [UI] No, but [UI]


AA: Ahora, per0 yo no la firmi. Now, but I didn't sign it.

MM: [UI] la declaracion de aduana es [UI] the customs declaration is very personal.

GL : No, es personal. No, it's personal.

FD: No la llena el piloto. It's not filled out by the pilot.

MM: El piloto no puede hacer la decl ar... The pilot cannot make out the declar ...

FD: La tienes que firmar tu. Como aqui, You have to sign it. Like here, Alejandro.

GL: Es como aqui. Cuando llegas aqui, It's like here. When you arrive here, you always
siempre tenes ... have to ...

AA: Si, si. Yes, yes.

GL: ...que tener la declaracion de ...have the customs declaration.

AA: Si, asi es. Si, per0 a veces 10s Yes, that's so. Yes, but sometimes the pilots fill
pilotos la llenan, jno? them out, right?

GL: Hay ... There's. ..

AA: TambiCn. Also.

FD: La llenan, per0 la firmas tu. They fill them out, but you sign it.

AA: [UIl [UT]
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

GL: ...hay fallos que dicen que si no te ...there's rulings that state that if they don't give
dan la declaraci6n ... you the declaration...

FD: No hay delito. 1 There's no offense.

GL:, no hay hay infracci6n. ...uh, no.. .there's no.. .there's no infraction.

FD: No hay infraccion. 1 There's no infraction.

MM: 0 sea, que a lo mejor ni multa. In other words, perhaps not even a fine.

GL: Pero ... But ...

GL: ...pero estamos... ...but we're ...

MM: [UI] con todo ... [RISA] [UI] [UI] with everything... [CHUCKLE] [UI]

GL: ...pero, lo que pasa que, como se... ...but what happens is that since...this that we
esto que hablamos de hoy. Que talked about today. That ...the media thing ...gets
mete la cuestion mediatica. involved. So, politics gets involved. Because if
Entonces, se tiene que meter la the newspapers hadn't said anything ...
politica. Porque si 10s diarios no absolutely nothing would have happened.
hubieran dicho nada ...ahi no pasaba
absolutamente nada.

AA: MoisCs, y.. .y...y...Y jte aseguran Moises, and.. .and...and.. .And are they
que ... que en Argentina nos van a promising you in Argentina that ...that they'll
ayudar y todo eso? help us and all?

MM: Claro. Y esa promesa la tengo hoy. Sure. And I have that promise today. Again
Hoy otra vez, y esta fresquecita. today, and it's fresh. But ...let's suppose ...You
Pero.. .vamos a suponer.. .Firmas sign the ...the ...the appointment. We go
el ...el designacion. Vamos ...a Argentina, we start the proceedings.What is a
Argentina, iniciamos 10s tramites. reasonable amount of time to get the ...the ...?
~Cuantoes un tiempo prudencial Counting on support, how soon can we get
para obtener la Teniendo the. ..ex ...immunity from prison?
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
apoyo jen c u h t o tiempo podemos
obtener la.. .excarcela.. .la.. .
exoneracion de prisibn?

GL: Un mes. A month.

MM: jTeniendo apoyo? Counting on support?

GL: En la ...en la c h a r a . In the court.

MM: Si. Yes.

GL: Si, entre ...entre quince dias y un Yes, between ...between fifteen days and a
mes. month.

MM: Okey. Si en un mes no pas6 nada ... Okay. If nothing happens within a month
me llamas, me insultas, me mentas la can call me, insult me, insult my mother ...and
madre ...y revocas el poder, y ya. Y revoke the power of attorney, and that's it. And
no vas a estar peor de lo que estas you won't be worse than you are now. Now, if
ahorita. Ahora, si no a...p...Habras you don't a...You will look as if you defended
quedado como que te defendiste y yourself and that you sent a lawyer and all. If,
como que mandaste un abogado y uh ...but if you do nothing, within a month you'll
tal. Si, este ...p ero si no haces nada, be far worse than you are now. Because ... in ...
dentro de un mes, vas a estar mucho your attitude in ...from a legal point of view, is
peor de lo que estas ahorita. known as contempt of court. And it's
Porque ...en ...a. ..tu actitud en... resistance face justice. The ...And that
desde el punto de vista juridico, se an aggravating factor in any...situation.
llama contumacia. Y es la
resistencia...a presentarte ante la
justicia. La ...Y eso un agravante
en cualquier...situation.

GL: Es...y...y...Es...Lo que te dice es It's...and...and...Itts...What he's telling you is
cierto. Eh, en la Argentina la true. Uh, in Argentina, contempt of court is
contumacia es la que tambikn se le what is also called nonappearance. If.. .if you
llama rebeldia. tu no haces don't make any positive gesture to appear in
ningun gesto positivo para entrar court...y ou have incurred in contempt of court.
en ...en el expediente ...te has However, if you attempt ...
quedado rebelde. En cambio, si
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

MM: Te has quedado delinquiendo, pues. You have stayed committing crimes, then.

GL: intentas...y dicen, "Seiiores, si ...if you attempt.. .and they say, "Gentlemen,
u.. ." Si intento, porque.. .iPor quC? if. .." If I attempt, why ...Why? Because it's my
Porque tengo derecho. La eximicion right. Immunity from prison is for these cases.
de prision es para estos casos.

MM: Ademas, que tu ...tu argument0 es Furthermore, your ...y our argument is valid.
valido. iPor que yo me tengo que Why should I have to submit ...?

GL: Necesito ir a1 baiio [UI] I need to go to the rest room [Ul]

MM: iPor que yo me tengo que someter Why need I submit to prison ...if what I
a prision lo que yo cometi h e committed was an infraction?
una infraccion?

FD: En dado caso que la haya cometido. In the event that he committed it.

MM: En dado caso que la haya cometido. In the event that he committed it. Because now
Porque ahorita si no te dieron la if. ..if they didn't give you the form, imagine.
planilla, imaginate. Y entonces ... And then the worst scenario the ...what I
siendo en el peor de 10s casos la ...lo committed was an infraction...why must I
que yo cometi una infraccion... ipor submit to the law as if I had committed an
que me tengo que poner a derecho offense? That's why I ask for immunity and I
como que yo hubiera cometido un present myself and submit to the law ...with
delito? Yo por eso pido la the ...uh, within ...the legal framework of an
exoneracion y me present0 y me infraction.
pongo a derecho...con la, con
el ...el escenario juridic0 de una

AA: Can...can I borrow a pen? Can...can I borrow a pen?

UF: I'm sorry... I'm sorry...

AA: A pen.. . A pen..
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

UF : A pen? Sure. A pen? Sure.

FD: L Q Upaso?
~ What happened?

AA: Quiero anotar el e-mail mio a el. I want to write out my e-mail for him.

MM: Ah, enton ...Yo lo tengo aqui abierto Oh, th ...I've got it open here to ...write it
para ...anotarlo aqui directo. directly.

AA: Toma. Pones Alejandro Antonini.. . Here. Write Alejandro Antonini ...g-
g-mail. com.

MM: El mio es MoisesMaionica@g- Mine is

UF : Burning a lot of calories tonight. Burning a lot of calories tonight. Running
Running around. around.

AA : Yeah. [RISA] Dejame anotarlo, Yeah. [CHUCKLE] Let me write it down,
Moises. [Suspira]. Y, ~Carlos? Moises. [Sighs]. And, Carlos?

FD : Se fue. He left.

MM: ~ C u a n d ose h e ? When did he leave?

FD : Hoy. Today.

MM: Me daba la cola a mi con el. He was giving me a ride.

FD: No, se h e ... No, he went ...

MM: iEn comercial? On a commercial flight?

FD: ...en vuelo comercial. ...on a commercial flight.

MM: Ah, igual [UI] Oh, the same[LTI]


AA: iC6m0 se escribe Maionica? How do you spell Maionica?
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
T a ~ Number
e / CD: R2a

MM: M...a...i latina ...o...n...i latina...c...a. M...a...i...o...n...i...c...a.

AA: Ya. Okay.

MM: Maionica. Maionica.

AA: M...a...i latina ...o... M...a...i...o...

MM: N...i...c...a. Exactarnente. N...i...c.. .a. Exactly.

AA: jC6m0 es? Es Moises ... How is it? It's Moises ...

MM: MoisCs Maionica ...@, Moises Maionica

AA: M...a... No. M...a...No.

MM: I... I...

AA: M.. .a.. .juh? Ma. M...a...uh? Ma.

MM: M...a...i la ...i latina...o...n...i latina ... M.. .a...i.. .i...o.. .n. ..i.. .c. ..a. Hm-mm. Do you
c. ..a. Hm-rnrn. LA ti te llega el get gmail over there?
gmail ahi?


AA: Moises, ~ C O es ~ que
O era el Moises, what's the telephone over there? One
telefono de alla? Uno nove ... nin ...

MM: jEl mio? Mine?

AA: Si, nueve cinco cuatro, jverdad? Yes, nine five four, right?

MM: Aja. Ehh ...nueve dieciocho treinta Uh-huh. Uhh ...nine eighteen thirty twenty-four.


AA: disculpa ...pero es Excuse me.. .me.. .but it's that.. .understand.. .
que.. .e. ..entiende.. .
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

GL: Pero ...te entiendo perfectamente. I But ...I understand you perfectly. Uh ...

GL: Para. Stop.

AA: ...conmigo y todo, per0 ... ...with me and all, but ...

FD: No, gordo, yo no estoy molesto No, pal, I'm not upset with you.

GL : Mi ...mirh. Eh, tengo cuarenta afios... I Lo ...look. Uh, I've spent forty years ...

FD: Alejandro ... Alejandro ...

GL: ..,.de abo... a lawy ...

FD: Yo no estoy molesto contigo. I'm not upset with you. I want you to know that
Quiero que tengas claro. No estoy clearly. I'm not the least upset with you. I'm not
nada molesto contigo. Por esta the least upset with you over this situation. In
situacion, yo no estoy molesto the least, kid.
contigo. Para nada, chamo.

MM: Lo que pasa que ...el ...tienes It's just that..'ve got to understand
que entender a Franklin y...y...y 61, Franklin and ...and ...and he, being your friend, I
siendo tu amigo, yo lo entiendo. understand him. When one finds oneself in a
Cuando uno esta en una situacion situation like yours, sometimes you need
como la que te encuentras tu, a somebody to shake you up, right? To ...
veces alguien necesita que te
sacudan, jno?, pa' que. ..

AA: Pa' reaccionar. To react.

MM:' que...porque no es fhcil [UI] ...because it's not easy [UI]

AA: Bueno, porque ...Pero a ti tambien te Well, because ...But also let me tell you
voy a decir algo. A m. ..a mi en something. I...I was told in PDVSA ..."Don't
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a --

PDVSA me dijeron.. ."QuCdate worry, don't say anything, don't ...don't say
tranquilo, no hables nada, no ga anything, everything...everything is going to get
digas nada, todo ...todo se va a fixed."

FD: La persona que te inform6 a ti de
eso ...
I The person who told you that ...

AA: Bue ...Estarnos claro. We1...That's clear.

FD : tenia el control de nada. ...had no control over anything.

AA: Bueno, okey, Frank. Pero lo hizo. Well, okay, Frank. But he did so.

FD: Tan ...tan...

AA: Lo hizo, Frank. He did it, Frank.

FD: ...tan... ...SO...
AA: Lo hizo. He did it.

FD: ...tanto ...que te dijo que se habia much so...that he told you he'd left the job,
separado del cargo, que no estaba that he wasn't fired when he was fired for good.
botado y estaba super botado.

AA: No, no, no. Eso no me lo dijo. Me No, no, no. He didn't tell me that. I...I was told
lo lo dijeron que si estaba that he was fired. I knew he was fired the
botado. Desde que lleg6 a Panama moment he arrived to Panama. No ...uh, that
yo supe que estaba botado. No ... has ...has nothing to do with anything.
n.. .eh, eso no.. .no tiene que ver.

UF : Too light? Too light?

FD: No, that's okay. No, that's okay.

MM: Okey. Okay.
File Number: MM- 109803
Date/Time Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

MM: Aunque del punto estrictamente... Though from a strictly ...

UF: Another one? Another one?

MM: ...juridico, lo que le hicieron ... point, what they did to him ...


UF: Or just reg...regular water? Or just reg...regular water?

MM: ...le hicieron f i e firmar la renuncia. ...they made him sign the resignation.
[SE R ~ E ] . [LAUGHS].

FD: No, no, no. [UI] No, no, no. [UI]

UF: Okey. Okay.

AA: Claro. Y...y...y...y... Sure. And.. .and...and...and.. .

MM: Estaba auto-renunciado [Ul:] He was self-resigned [UI]


AA : ...y algo ...y algo que a mi me ...and something ...and something that they did
hicieron ... to me...

MM: [UI] estaba auto-renunciado. [UI] he was self-resigned.

AA: ...y algo que a mi me hicieron ...uh ...and something that they did to me in
en Argentina. A mi De Vido ... Argentina. To me, De Vido ...

FD: [UI]

AA: ...y Uberti me dijeron ... ...and Uberti told me ...

FD: [UI.] en medio de 10s pe'os, la [US] in the midst of the mess, the amount [UI]
cantidad [UI]
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
AA: jC6m0 es? How is it?

FD: [UI] de ese carajo. [UI'] of that asshole.

MM: Si, jno? 1 Yes, right?


AA: Tu nos banqueastes, nosotros te You supported us, we'll support you all the
banqueamos hasta la muerte. way.

FD: [UI] juraba que andaba hablando [UI] swore that was talking to the vice
con el vice presidente de [UI] president of [UI]


AA: Claudio y De Vido. Claudio and De Vido.

FD: jEntiendes? You understand?
AA: Y mira donde estoy. And look where I am.

FD: [UI] Esos no creen [UI] [UI] They don't believe [UI]


AA: Y yo no soy amigo de Claudio. And I'm no friend of Claudio. Rodolfo is ...
Rodolfo es. ..


FD: [UI] no cree en nada. [UI] doesn't believe in anything.

AA: Esa era mi segunda vez en mi vida That was the second time in my life that I saw
que lo veia. No es...el ... him. It's not ...the ...


FD: Pero, jno es el que te monto en el But wasn't he the one who boarded you on the
avion? plane?
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
AA: Claro, per0 ...pero esa fue la Sure, but ...but that was the second time in my
segunda vez en mi vida que lo vi. life that I saw him.

MM: jA quiin? Who?

AA: A...Bueno, es la tercera vez porque To ...Okay, it's the third time because I saw him
lo vi en ..."Habla el Presidente". A mi at ..."The President Speaks." Claudio tells me ...I
Claudio me dice a mi ...Yo lo vi saw him fif...ten minutes the first time ...
qui ...diez minutos la primera vez...

MM: Ah ...

AA: ...desp ... ...aft...

FD: S e g h Claudio ... According to Claudio.. .

AA: ...o sea, Uberti ... other words, Uberti ...

FD: ...el no te invito. El ...el ...61... ...he didn't invite you. He ...he ...he ...

AA: Ya va, Frank. Wait, Frank.

FD: Segun Claudio. O...Pa' que estCs According to Claudio. Or ...So you know,
claro, gordo. Segun Claudio, C1 no gordo. According to Claudio, he didn't invite
te invito a1 avion. Tu fuiste un you on the plane. You were a guest of Diego's
invitado del hijo de Diego. son.

AA: Eso es mentira, eso es solamente un That's a lie, that's only a [Ul] Victoria called me
[UI] Me llamo Victoria y su and then her assistant and then he called me. I
asistente y despuks me llam6 el. Me got calls from Marjorie, from Victoria and then
llamo Marjorie, Victoria y luego su from her assistant. Excuse me. Marjorie
asistente. Perdon. Marjorie ...en the between, a thousand times from
el ...en ...en el interim, mil veces Daniel. In ... Victoria ...and I told her I didn't
Daniel. En e... Victoria ...y le dije know ...and Claudio called me. In other words,
que no sabia...y me llamo Claudio. like that ... Well, Victoria called, right? "Let me
0 sea, asi ... Bueno, llamo Victoria, give you Claudio." The guy said to me ..."Listen,
jno? "Te paso con Claudio." El tipo I would like very much, so we can talk about
me dijo ... "Oye, me gustaria mucho, the gas pipelines from...from ...from ...what's the
asi hablamos de 10s tubos de gas name? of...of the compa ...of. .."
de.. . de. .jc6m0 se llama?,
File Number: MM- 109803
Date/Time Recorded: 08/27/07
T g e Number / CD: R2a
- - la compa ..."

FD: jEnarsa? Enarsa?

AA: De Enarsa. "Y asi aprovechas y From Enarsa. "And that way you can meet ..." I
conoces a..." Que ni pude hablar ... wasn't even able to talk ...This man gives me a...
Este seiior me da una sa...El si He ca...he can say...that he sat next to me and
pue ...el si puede decir ...que se sento that I didn't meet him, because all he said was,
a1 lado mio y yo no lo conoci, "How are you, how are you? Pleased to meet
porque el todo lo que dijo h e , you ..." But ...nothing else. The plane shook,
"jC6m0 est$ c6mo esta? Mucho there was turbulence, he was so frightened...
gusto ..." Pero ...mas nada. El avion that he didn't talk to me for more than...six
se movio, hub0 una turbulencia, el hours of flying time. Then ...But me ...uh, the
se asusto tanto ...q ue no me habl6 third time I saw Claudio was ...when President
mas en ...en seis horas de vuelo. Chavez says, "Claudio, you're very thin." And
Entonces.. .Pero...a mi., la he says, "Uberti, you're...making De
tercera vez que vi a Claudio, que Vido work very hard." When everything is
h e cuando el Presidente Chavez le over, I'm pulled to one side...Diego takes me...
dice, "Claudio, estas muy delgado." to see Ramirez. And Ramirez turns around, he's
Y le dice, "Uberti, estas ...le estas about to say something to me but he doesn't tell
ha.. .hacienda trabajar mucho a. ..a. .. me anything. In other words, he saw me, yet he
a De Vido.'' Cuando se termina didn't greet me. Whereas these two
todo, a mi me jalan para un lado ... approached me. ..right? Uh.. .and he said. ..and
Diego me lleva pa' que Ramirez me De Vido said to me, "You How was that?

vea. Y Ramirez se voltea, me va a
decir algo pero no me dice nada. 0
sea, me vio, mas, no me saludo. En
cambio, estos dos se acercaron ...
jverdad? Este ...y me dice ...y me
dijo De Vido, "Tu nos ..." jComo es
que h e eso?

GL : jEl10s donde estaban? Ese ...ese Where were they? That...that scene.

AA: En el ...donde estaba la television, At the ...where the television was, where ...
donde estaba...jc6m0 se llama? what's his name?

GL : Kirchner. Kirchner.
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

AA: Si, un ...un salon ...donde hablaron
1 Yes, in a hall ...where the ...

GL: Ahh.

AA: ...dos presidentes.

GL: Si, este ... Yes, uh ...

AA: ~ C Ose~llama
O el salon? What's the hall's name?

GL: Blanco. iSa10n Blanco? I White. White Hall?

AA: Si, que tiene un como muy

GL: Si, si. El Salon Blanco. Yes, yes. The White Hall.

AA: Pero, es chiqui ...pero...pero es But it's sma ...but ...but it's small.

GL: El Salon Blanco de la Casa Rosada, I The White Hall at the Pink House, yes.

GL : Si.

AA: 0 sea, no es grande. Pareciera mas I mean, it's not large. It seems bigger but it's
grande, per0 no es. not.

GL: Si.

AA: Pero ...Y, entonces, el dice ...este ... But.. .And, so, he says...uh.. ."You supported
"Tu nos banqueastes ...y te vamos us ...and we're going to you until the
a...banquear hasta la muerte." Y very end." And between both of them they
entre ellos dos comentaron ... said ...
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
GL: Pero esto...esto...iya habia pasado But this.. .this. ..had the [UI] already happened?
lo de [UI]?

MM: Si, si, si. Yes, yes, yes.

FD: El dia siguiente. The following day.

AA: E...eso he... T...that was ...

GL: El dia siguien... The following day ...

AA: Eso fue...No. Es ... That was ...No. It's ...

FD: iDos dias despues? Two days later?

AA: No. ~ E S hOe el sabado...? El lunes. No. Was that on Saturday...? On Monday. On
El lunes. Y el martes en la Monday. And the news came out on Tuesday
madrugada sale la noticia. at dawn. So...
Entonces. ..

FD: [UI]

AA: Perdon, tu tienes ...0 sea, todo el Sorry, you have ...In other words, everybody
mundo tiene que entender, coiio, has to understand, damn ...I'm there and the
che ...Yo estoy ahi y estan 10s presidents are there, they're with the ... [UI]
presidentes ahi, estan con 10s...hasta even the old men are... [UI] they are...they're
10s viejos se estin... [UI] 10s being taken to another hall when they tell me
estan 10s estan llevando para that. And the only two Argentines to whom
otro salon, cuando a mi me dicen Chavez ...
eso. Y Chavez a 10s unicos dos

GL: iEh?

AA: Bueno, saludo a tres argentinos. A Well, he greeted three Argentines. A
un empresario que no me acuerdo businessman whose name I don't remember.
su nombre. Pero a 10s unicos tres But the only three Argentines that Chavez
argentinos que Chavez salud6 he... greeted were ...First he said, "Claudio, you're
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

Primero dijo, "Claudio, estas muy very thin." And then he said, "Julio, you're
delgado." Y despues le dijo, "Julio, working them very hard." And he greeted a
le...10s estas poniendo mucho a businessman whom I don't know, a...a large, fat
trabajar." Y saludo a un empresario man...whose name I don't remember, but he
que no sC quien es, un...un sefior didn't greet any Venezuelan. In other words,
grande, gordo ...que no me acuerdo Chavez didn't present these two.
el nombre, pero el no salud6 a When they told me that ...l said to myself,
n i n g h venezolano. 0 sea, Chavez nothing, nothing happened here.
nada present6 ...a estos dos. Yo,
cuando me dicen eso ...yo dig0
nada, aqui no pas6 nada.

MM: Si, claro. Yes, of course.

AA: Bueno, el lunes en. ..en la ...el martes Well, Monday at.. .at...Tuesday at dawn.. .the
en la madrugada la noticia. news is out. I decide, no, I'm leaving. Why the
Que yo decido, no, yo me voy. lies now?
jPor quC ahora mentiras?

AA: 0 , no ...o, jnunca tuvieron ...? 0 , Or, no ...or didn't they ever have ...? Or, not ...In
no ...0 sea, o...o yo no se cual es la other words, or ...or I don't know the agenda.
agenda. No ... No ..

MM: Pero la noticia que sale fue la del ... But the news that came out was about ...that the
que habia ocurrido la vaina. thing had happened.

AA: Bueno, que le habian...Bueno, un Well, that they had ...Well, a briefcase with
maletin de ochocientos mil dolares eight hundred thousand dollars and a
con un venezolano. Entonces, yo le Venezuelan. Then, I ask the assistant who was
pregunto a1 asistente que estaba with me, uhh...Victoria. In a plac ...having some
conrnigo, ehh...Victoria. En un drinks. And she tells me ..."You see? Something
siti ...tomando unos tragos. Y me had to be given to the opposition. We gave
dice ... "jViste? Habia que darle them that, but your name isn't there." But, faced
algo a la oposicion. Le dimos eso, with that, I said, "You know what? I'm keeping
pero tu nombre no esta." Pero, yo my distance ...until they honestly fix the mess."
ante eso, dije, " ~ T sabes
u que? Yo And they never fixe... And they always told
guardo distancia ...hasta que de me ... Wh ... They got scared ...Wh ...when I
verdad arreglen el rollo." Y nunca lo went to Uruguay, they sent a PDVSA plane to
File Number: MM- 109803
Date/Time Recorded: 08/27/07
Number / CD: R2a

arreglar ... Y siempre me get me. Victoria called to say that if I didn't get
dijeron ...Cua...Ellos se on that plane, that she would send a plane
asustaron...Cu ...cuando yo me f i i a from ...from the Argentine Republic to get me.
Uruguay, ellos mandaron un avion But that nothing would happen to me. And I
de PDVSA a buscarme. Y a mi me didn't return because Marjorie Gutierrez, from
llamo Victoria pa' decinne que si no PDVSA, had her plane inspected before
me montaba en ese avion, que ella leaving, to check the plane of the Min of
mandaba un avion de la la the planes ...of PDVSA, and she told me, "It's
Republica Argentina a buscarme. not certain that you'll return." I mean... PDVSA
Pero que a mi no me pasaba nada. itself told me. .. Argentina behaving ...with us
Y yo no me regreso porque a like it shouldn't. So...
Marjorie Gutierrez, de PDVSA, le
requisaron el avion antes de salir, a
buscar en el avion del Min uno
de 10s PDVSA, y ella
me dijo, "No es seguro que te
regreses." 0 sea... A mi la misma
PDVSA me dice ... Argentina
esta portando ...con nosotros como
no es. Entonces ...

MM: No, es que en principio f i e asi. En No, at the beginning it was like that. At first
principio hub0 un desbarateo.. . there was a screw-up...because.. .
porque.. .

AA: Ah ...le requisaron ...Ella f i e a Uh ...they checked her ...She went to fetch me. I
buscarme. Yo vi el Falcon aterrizar. saw the Falcon land. I saw it ...with my eyes. I
Yo lo vi ...con mis ojos. Yo estaba was at the airport and I told her I was at the
en el aeropuerto y le dije que yo hotel. Right? And when she ...landed she called
estaba en el hotel. ~Verdad?Y me because ... [UJ] I open the door and the call
cuando ella a...aterriza me llama came in. I even didn't tell her I was at the
porque ... [UI] abro la puerta y airport. And J told her that I was seeing her.
aparecio la llamada. Y yo le dije And I said, no, [UI] write down that ...that it's
que estaba en el aeropuerto. Ni le forty-five minutes, but that [UI] I didn't want to
dije que la estaba viendo. Y le dije, go with her. So, she says to me, "I'll call you
no, [UI] anota que...q ue es cuarenta when I'm in the the PDVSA's car." She
y cinco minutos, per0 que [Ul] no was coming to get me from Uruguay and she
queria inne con ella. Entonces, ella says, "You're right, don't get on board and
me dice, "Ya te llamo cuando estC don't go to that shit because those bastards
en el ...en el ...en el carro de inspected the plane before leaving." It was
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

PDVSA." Me venia a buscar de necessary to call the Foreign Minister so
Uruguay y me dice, "Tienes razon, they ...would lay off. So...
no te montes y no te vayas pa' esa
mierda porque esos coiios de madre
me lo requisaron el avion antes de
salir." Hubo que llamar a1 Canciller
pa' que ...dejara la vaina. Entonces ...

GL: Pero, jpor que requisaron el avion? But why did they check the plane?

AA: Ah, bueno, no se. Lo 10s
requi saron.

GL: Pero a vos no te buscaban en ese But they weren't looking for you then.

AA: No, requisaron el a...No, no. No, they checked the pl ...No, no.

AA : Requisan por dinero. Estaban They check for money. They were looking...
buscando.. .Ella me dice que.. .que She tells me that ...that they wanted see if. ..
querian... a ver si ...jcuanta plata hay how much money is there here?



jCuanta plata hay aqui? le dijeron a
I How much money is there here, they asked
Marjorie. Bueno.. . Marjorie. Well ...

FD: Tenia razon. De no confiar. He was right. Not to trust [them].

MM: Claro, claro. Sure, sure.

GL: No, y tenes toda la razon del I No, and you're absolutely right. But, well ...
mundo. Pero, bueno.. . I
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

MM: Si, [UI] Yes, [UT]

AA: Ella me dice ...Eh ... She tells me ...Uh ...

GL: iTe puedo robar un poquito de Can I steal a little lemon from you?

FD: Por favor, [UI] Please, [UI]

AA: Ella ...ella me dice a mi ...ella me dice She...she tells me ...she tells me, "Alejandro, the
a mi, "Alejandro, el unico que firma only one who signs off on the plane is the
el avi6n es el Ministro. Porque este Minister. Not even Diego ...
avion ...

GL: Gracias. Thank you.
AA: lo puede mover ni siquiera ...can move this plane. The only one who
Diego. El unico que autoriza este authorizes this flight is the Minister. In other
vuelo es el Ministro. 0 sea, yo ... words, I...uh...Be aware that he'll be waiting for
eh ...Esta en cuenta que 61 te va a you when you arrive." They go out find
estar esperando cuando llegues." me.. .the Falcon lands twenty-five minutes
Salen...a buscarme, aterriza el later ...and...and she tells me, "Look, don't go
Falcon veinticinco minutos on that piece of shit because the checked it
despues ...y...y ella me dice, "Mira, see if we had money on the plane." It became
no te vayas pa' esa mierda porque necessary to call the Foreign Affairs Ministry. I
me lo requisaron ...a ver si teniamos don't know who they had to call to. Meanwhile,
dinero en el avion." Hubo que llamar I'm scared, with my heart racing. I said, no,
a la Cancilleria. No se a quien tuvo go ...g 0.. .go to.. .to, what's the name? To the
que llamar. A todas estas, yo hotel, where ...where I'll wait for you. And from
asustado, con el corazon aqui. Le there she calls me with the ...with Rafael
dije, no, anda ...anda vete a...a Ramirez. And I wasn't anywhere to be found ...
se Ilama? A1 hotel, que ahi ... Obviously. When he calls me, I'm on a plane,
ahi te espero. Y de ahi me llama con coming here. So, whatever ...?
el ...con Rafael Ramirez. Y yo no
aparecia por ningun lado por ...
Logico. Cuando me Ilama, yo
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

estaba montado en un avion,
vinikndome pa' aci. Entonces,
jc6mo quiera ...?

GL: i Y vos viajaste con Ramirez? And you traveled with Ramirez?

AA: Nunca. Nunca en la vida. Never. Never in my life.

FD: ~ N u n c ahablaste con Ramirez? You never spoke to Ramirez?

AA: No. Pero ...t...pero me lo iban a No. But ...but they were going to get him on the
pasar. Me lo iban a pasar. Pero, phone for me. They were going to get him on
e...e...entie... the line. But, un ...under ...

GL: Pero, bueno.. . Well, but ...

AA: ...entiende. ~Entiendes? ...understand. You understand?

GL : Ahi ...este ... [UI] no me sale el There. ..uh ... [UI] I can't remember the name.
nombre. [UI] le llamaste. [UI] you called her.

MM: Marjorie [UI] Marjorie [UI]

AA: Marjorie, claro. Marjorie, of course.

GL: Pero, lo que pasa es que ... But it's just that ...obviously that money was for
evidentemente, esa plata era para Cristina because ...where ...the ...they should
Cristina porque ...donde ...le. .. have fired the.. .the.. .the one from.. .Enarsa,
tendrian que haber rajado al.. .al.. .a1 not.. .not Uberti.
de ...Enarsa, no a Uberti.

AA: Ya. Right.

GL: Porque ...el viaje era de Enarsa. Because ...the trip was Enarsa's.

FD: Claro. Right.

GL: Porque le rajaron a Uberti. Because they fired Uberti.

FD: [UIl
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
- Tape Number 1 CD: R2a


FD: Agarraron a1 mas pendejo. They chose the biggest asshole.

GL: A Uberti y a la secretaria. Uberti and the secretary.

FD: Por eso. Los mas desechables. That's why. The most disposable.

GL: Pero, vos te ...tenes toda la razon del But you're're completely right
mundo que...Pero ...lo que el te about ...But ...what he's suggesting to you
propone neutro. Es bueno neutral. It's good to know ...but it's neutral. Uh,
saber... per0 es neutro. Eh, es it's better. Because the legal battle always has
mejor. Porque la pelea juridica to be waged.
siempre hay que darla.

AA: Okey. Okay.

GL: Aunque estes solo. Even if you're alone.

MM: Aunque este solo. Exactamente. No Even if he's alone. Exactly. Lacking support...
teniendo apoyo ...lo mejor que the best you can do is defend yourself.
puedes hacer es defenderte.

GL: Yo creo que si ...suponte el peor de I think that if...imagine the worst scenario,
10s casos, nadie hay apoyo nobody ...there's no political support...the
politico Corte Suprema ...seguro, Supreme Court... is sure, to make room for
que ...q ue a este caso le hace lugar. this case. Uh, let's say, for immunity from
Eh, digamos, por eximicion de prison.

AA: iSi? Yes?

GL: Porque una cosa que... Because's something...


FD: Yo lo que quiero es que te What I want is for you to defend yourself [UI]
defiendas [UT]

GL : ...que es una verguenza. ...that. ..that it's shameful.
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number 1 CD: R2a - -

GL: Pero, claro, eso es mucho tiempo. But, of course, that's a lot of time.

FD: Con quien tu quieras, per0 que no With whoever you want, but don't fail to
caigas en rebeldias ni caigas en appear and do not be found to be in contempt
contumacia ni te vengas a of court and don't defend yourself. ..behind
defender ...detras de unos barrotes, bars, brother.

AA: Bueno, yo te llamo entonces ... T...te Okay, 1'11 call you then ...1'11 write you an e-mail
escribo un e-mail ahora y... now and...

MM: Si, yo te voy a pasar ... Yes, I'm going to send you ...uh ...Tell me
Cuentame algo. iCual es el pr6ximo something. What's the next step? Uh ...will you
paso? Eh ...jtu haces que me have your office send me the sample of. ..
manden de tu oficina el modelo de...

GL : No. Yo lo tengo en el ... No. I have it in the ...

MM: designacibn? ...of the appointment?

GL: ..lo escribi esta mGana. ...I wrote it this morning.

MM: jEl de designacion? The one for the appointment?

GL :


Ah, bueno, entonces me lo das a mi
I Oh, okay, give it to me and I'll transcribe it.
y yo lo transcribo.

GL: Aqui faltan 10s datos de la salida de I The information on his depature is missing here.

MM: Yo lo transcribo y te lo paso a ti I'll transcribe and send it for you to ...
para que lo ...

MM: ...revises y... I ...check it and ...
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a -- --

GL : [UI] aqui faltan... [UI] missing here are. ..

MM: ...consultes con quien tu quieras. ...consult with whoever you like.

GL: ...faltan 10s datos la salida de ...missing is the information about...about his
el ... departure. ..

FD: Yo consigo...q ue nos vayamos con I'll arrange ...for us to go with Karim.

GL: Con el ...di ...digamos como sali6, a With the ...we sa. ..we say how he departed,
quC hora salio, porque [UI] what time he departed, because [Ul]

FD: Con otro. I With another one.

AA: Debe ser con...tiene que ser con un It needs to be with needs to be with a notary
notario de la Corte, Frank. from ...from the Court, Frank.

MM: Este ...
FD: LHay un notario aqui? Is there a notary here?

MM: Yo te ... Si, si, yo ...yo me encargo. I'll ... Yes, yes, I...I1lltake care of it.

GL: ~Entendesla letra? Do you understand the handwriting?

MM: Yo tengo un corresponsal aqui. I've got a correspondent here. We'll do
Hacemos todo con el. everything with him.

GL: ~Entendesla letra? I Do you understand the writing?

MM: Si. Yo transcribo y te lo paso. Yes. 1'11 transcribe and send it to you.

AA: Bueno, me voy voy a ir. Que Okay, I'm going ...I'm going to leave. I'm
yo voy' el norte. going.. .north.

MM: Y, bueno, y la proxima vez que haya And, okay, and the next time there's a meeting,
reunion, si quieres la hacemos por we'll have it over there if you want.
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

AA: Ah, bueno. No, yo porque vi ...vine Oh, okay. No, it's because I ca...I came to talk
a hablar con ...con ...con un abogado with ...with ...with a lawyer that my sister got, an
que consiguio mi hermana, American and. ..who's up here north of...up
americano y...que esta aqui a1 norte from Sunrise. Sunrise pa' arriba.

GL : Y, esto s...estos son algunos And this ...these are some thoughts about what
pensamientos con relacion a qu6 we can...say in the Voluntary Appearance
podemos ...decir en la Esponthea, statement, if we make it.
si es que la hacemos.

MM: Uh-huh. Eso despuCs de ver el Uh-huh. That's after seeing the file, Guillermo.
expediente, Guillermo.

GL : DespuCs de ver el expediente. After seeing the file.

MM: Yo igual transcribo esto y te lo paso I'll still transcribe this and send it for you to see.
para que tu lo veas.

GL : Porque ...tu esa plata la podias llevar could be taking that money for a
para hacer un aprendimiento real estate transaction, for example, to
inmobiliario, por ejemplo, para purchase a...
comprar un.. .

AA: Que h e lo que...que h e lo que Which is what ...which is what they said.

GL: iEh? Uh?

AA: Que fue lo que dijeron, que yo iba a Which is what they said, that I was going to buy
comprar un ...unos apartamentos. an...some apartments.

GL : Y. ..iUnos apartamentos? And ...Some apartments?

AA: No, y dijeron que iba a comprar No, and they said I was going to buy a...I was
un ...iba a hacer un centro comercial. going to build a shopping mall. That it was three
Que eran tres millones de d6lares y million dollars and that was the down payment.
eso era la inicial.
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
GL: Pero, habria.. . ' But, you'd need ...

AA: Para comprar la tiena. To buy the land.

GL: ...ha.. .habria que tener el lugar... ...y ou'd need to have the location ...

AA: Ellos lo consiguieron y todo. They got it all.

GL: jEh? Uh?

AA: La gente de PDVSA lo consiguio y PDVSA's people got it all.

MM: A1 lugar, jsi? The location, yes?

AA: Consiguieron el lugar.. . They got the location ...

GL: Habia.. . It was ...

- AA: tres millones de dolares... ...costing three million dollars...

GL: ...habia que pensar el lugar ... was necessary to think of the location ...

AA: ...hablaron con las personas, se lo ...they talked to the people, they were going to
iban a comprar y todo. buy it and all.

MM: No juegues. No shit.

GL: Ah, jestaba eso? Oh, there was all that?

AA: Si, si. Yes, yes.

GL: [UIl

MM: Lo hizo PDVSA ahi mismo. PDVSA did it right away.

AA : PDVSA Argentina y PDVSA PDVSA Argentina and PDVSA Uruguay did
Uruguay lo hicieron. El de PDVSA it. The guy from PDVSA Argentina got the
Argentina consiguio el sitio...a1 lado location to a river, I don't know, they got
de un rio, no se, consiguieron unos some commercial locations.. .and all. They
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
locales comerciales.. .y todo. wrote up a contract. I can send it to you
Hicieron un contrato. Te lo puedo because they sent it to me by e-mail. I'm going
mandar que me lo mandaron a mi to ...
por e-mail. Te lo voy ...

MM: Ah, j t tienes
~ el contrato? Oh, you've got the contract?

AA: Creo que lo tengo, no se. I think I have it, I don't know.

GL: Bueno, todo eso me lo tenis que Okay, you've got to give me all that to start
dar para ir pensando si decidimos. thinking if we decide.

AA: Pero pregunta porque ...pregunta tu But ask because ...y ou should ask ...the people
que...con la gente de PDVSA at PDVSA because I.. .
porque yo.. .

MM: Si, si, si, yo me encargo. Yes, yes, yes, 1'11 handle it.

AA: Pregunta, porque.. .deben saber. Ask, because ...they should know.
GL: No, si una buena No, if it's's a good explanation, it is. But it's
explicacion, es. Pero lo que pasa es just that nothing can be said were going to
que no se puede decir ...iba a buy and then no ...that nothing happens,
comprar y despues no ...que no pase because that's exactly what happened whe ...
nada, porque es justo lo que paso with this Mice ...Miceli, the.. .the Minister of
cuan ...con esta Mice ...Miceli, Economy.
Ministra de Economia.

AA: jQue le paso? What happened to her?

GL: La Ministra de Economia le The Minister of Economy was found to have
encontraron en el baiio un.. .una a...a bag in the rest room ...
bolsa ...

MM: En dolares. With dollars.

GL: Por esto...por esto es...el ...el This is.. .this is why.. .the.. .your mess, the. ..was
quilombo tuyo, el.. .s.. .s...fue el [UI] the [UI] Because ...uhh, uhm...a month and a
Porque ...ehh, ehm...un mes y medio half earlier, the Minister of Economy was found
antes, a la Ministra de Economia le to have ...I don't know, uh, a hundred thousand
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

encontraron sC, eh, cien mil dollars or sixty thousand dollars, S don't
dolares o sesenta mil dolares, no me remember, in the rest room.
acuerdo, en el baiio.

MM: iDe la casa? At her house?

GL: En el baiio de ella. Del Ministerio. In her rest room. At the Ministry.


GL: Le ...el personal de custodia h e y The.. .the security guards went and.. .uh.. .uh,
se.., vieron una valij ...una.. . saw a suitca...a. ..a commercial bag, [that was]
una bolsa de ...comercial, suspicious. So...they called and [Ul:]they saw
sospechosa. Entonces...llamaron y it, they were dollars. And she came out saying
[UI] lo vieron, eran dolares. Y ella that it was for...for.. .that a brother had given
salio a decir que era para.. .para.. . them to her to buy, uh, an apartment. She was
que se 10s habia dado un hermano never able to prove what ...what she was going
para comprar, eh, un departamento. to buy and all, and then turned out that she
Nunca pudo demostrar que ...quC had to r...hey, they ...they fired her and...
era lo que iba a comprar y que se Besides, they were packed in .in..
yo, y entonces...quedo y que tuvo in a pa ...pack ...Only the Central Bank gives
que r. ..bah, la.. .la echaron y.. . those out.
Ademas, estaban embalados en ...
en.. .en...en...en.. .en una sa.. .saca.. .
Solo el Banco Central las da esas.


FG: Lo de la Ministra. The Minister's.

GL: Si. Yes.

MM: Vayase de aca. Get out of here.

GL: Entonces, por eso el plata [UI] So, that's why the ...the money [US]

AA: Gracias, Moises. Thanks, Moises.

MM: Quedate tranquilo, hermano. Take it easy, brother.
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
T a ~ Number
e / CD: R2a

AA: Chao. Mucho gusto, doctor. Bye. Pleased to meet you, doctor

GL: Eh, un gusto, jeh? 1 Uh, my pleasure, uh?



GL:, sepa que si, a. .. And ...and ...uh, you should know that if. ..uh,
acepta, yo ...y o le voy a poner toda you accept, I...I1mgoing to put in all the effort
la garra que ...q ue [UI] that.. .that [UI]

AA: Chao, Frank. Bye, Frank.

MM: Chao, Gordito. Bye, Gordito.

AA: Chao, pues. Nos vemos. Chao, Bye, then. See you. Bye, then.



AA: Coiio de la madre. Son of a bitch.


AA: [UI] Hey, Mike. [Ul] come. [UI] Hey, Mike. [UI] come.

ML: He 's here? He's here?

AA: No, but he may. No, but he may.

ML: Okay. We're in the bar. Okay. We're in the bar.


AA: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
- Tape Number / CD: R2a

?: You remember this hall right You remember this hall right here? This?
here? This?

?: What? What?



AA : [UI] [UII

?: [UII [UII

AA: [Ul1 [UII




AA: ~ C Ote~h eO? How did you get on?

ML: Special Agent Mike Lasiewicki. Special Agent Mike Lasiewicki. Time
Time is...8:42 pm. Date is... is...8:42 pm. Date is... 08/2 7/2007. This ends
08/27/2007. This ends the the consensual monitoring.
consensual monitoring.