2017dec13 House-Senate Tax Bill Conference Committee Debate

https://www.c-span.org/video/?
438358-1/house-senate-conferees-meet-reconcile-tax-reform-bills&start=3540
December 13, 2017
House-Senate Conference Committee on Republican Tax Reform Bill House and Senate conference committee
members met to discuss reconciling the two Republican tax reform bills passed separately out of each chamber.
Republicans praised the efforts of staffers who had been working on the conference committees report, while
Democrats said they were unhappy with the fact that the report was not yet available for their review. Following
opening remarks from each member of the committee and a few attempts by Democrats to delay the meetings
continuation, Thomas Barthold of the Joint Committee on Taxation explained some provisions of the expected
tax measure and answered lawmakers' questions on their substance. close
00:00:00
Unidentified Speaker
HOUSE AND SENATE CONFERENCE COMMITTEE MEMBERS MET TO DISCUSS RECONCILING

THE PAT S TAX REFORM BILLS. THE SENATOR ORRIN HATCH WHO CHAIRS THE FINANCE
COMMITTEE TOLD REPORTERS HE AND HIS REPUBLICAN COLLEAGUES HAD REACHED THE
GENERAL AGREEMENT ON HOW THEY PLAN TO OVERHAUL THE NATION'S TAX CODE.
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00:00:19
THE SENATE HOUSE COMMITTEE WILL COME TO ORDER. I AM DEEPLY HONORED TO CHAIR
THIS CONFERENCE COMMITTEE, THE FIRST TAX REFORM CONFERENCE COMMITTEE IN 31
YEARS AND TO BE HERE WITH YOU AS WE MOVE FORWARD WITH THIS HISTORIC EFFORT.
BEFORE I DELIVER MY OPENING REMARKS, I WANT TO TAKE A MOMENT TO WELCOME
EVERYONE AND DISCUSS THE FORMAT OF TODAY'S MEETING. I ALSO WOULD LIKE TO THANK
THE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS JOINING US TODAY FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE CAPITAL AND
BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE. I THINK ALL THE MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE AND SENATE AND OUR
PROFESSIONAL STAFF WHO WORKED SO HARD ON TAX REFORM FOR THE PAST SEVERAL
YEARS. IN PARTICULAR, THE MEMBERS OF THE WAYS AND MEANS COMMITTEE AND SENATOR
HATCH IN THE FINANCE COMMITTEE. WE WILL BEGIN TODAY'S MEETING WITH THE
OPPORTUNITY FOR EACH COUNTRY TO MAKE AN OPENING STATEMENT OF UP TO THREE
MINUTES. IN ORDER TO ENSURE EACH COUNTRY HAS AN OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK, I WILL BE
ENFORCING THE TIME LIMIT. ONCE OPEN STATEMENTS ARE COMPLETE, WE WILL TURN TO
THE CHIEF OF STAFF OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE ON TAXATION TO PROVIDE A BRIEF
OVERVIEW ON THE HOUSE AND SENATE VERSIONS OF THE TAX CUTS AND JOBS ACT. AFTER
HIS PRESENTATION, CONFEREES MAY QUESTION HIM DURING THAT TIME AND ALSO IN THREE
MINUTE INCREMENTS. FINALLY, THE CHAIR WILL ENTERTAIN UNANIMOUS CONSENT
REQUEST AND STATEMENTS AND OTHER MATERIALS INTO THE RECORD FOR THIS
CONFERENCE COMMITTEE. WITH THAT I RECOGNIZE MYSELF FOR PURPOSES OF DELIVERING
AN OPENING STATEMENT. TODAY, WE ARE COMING TOGETHER AS A CONFERENCE
COMMITTEE WITH ONE SINGLE OR MISSION IN MIND. FINALIZING THE TAX CUTS IN THE ACT
AND DELIVERING TRANSFORMATIONAL TAX REFORM FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THREE
DECADES. WE WILL CONSIDER THE BEST IDEAS FROM THE HOUSE AND SENATE PASSED
LEGISLATION AND WILL CONTINUE MOVING CLOSER TO ONE FINAL PROGRESS TAX REFORM
BILL. THROUGHOUT OUR NEARLY SEVEN-YEAR JOURNEY ON TAX REFORM, WE HAD TO MAKE
MANY CHOICES WITH THESE GOALS IN MIND. FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY, WE CREATED
A TAX BILL BUILT FOR GROWTH AND LEAD AMERICA BACK INTO THE WORLD. WE REJECTED
SIMPLY TWEAKING A FEW PROVISIONS OF WASHINGTON'S MONSTROUS TAX CODE AND
CALLING IT A DAY. WE PUT IT ON THE TABLE AND WENT BOLD FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.
TO MAKE AMERICA COMPETITIVE AGAIN WORLDWIDE, WE REJECTED SIMPLY AIMING FOR
AVERAGE AMONG OUR LOCAL COMPETITORS. INSTEAD, WE INSISTED ON DESIGNING ONE OF
THE MOST COMPETITIVE FOR THE WORLD AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. WE DECIDED TO IT
WOULD -- WOULD IT WOULD STAND FOR AND WHO IT WOULD STAND FOR. WE CHOSE THE
AMERICAN PEOPLE. THE BILL BEFORE US NOW REFLECTS ALL THESE DECISIONS. MORE THAN
THAT, IT EMBODIES THE PRINCIPLES WE HAVE BEEN COMMITTED TO SINCE THE BEGINNING.
THIS BILL IS A BOLD DEPARTURE FROM THE BROKEN TAX CODE AMERICA HAS TODAY. IT
REDUCES THE TAX RATE FOR ALL AMERICANS OF ALL WALKS OF LIFE AND DELIVERS THE
LOWEST RATES IN MODERN HISTORY FOR BUSINESSES OF ALL SIZES. IT PROVIDES A MODERN
TAX SYSTEM THAT IS TREMENDOUSLY COMPETITIVE. ONE THAT WILL LEAPFROG AMERICA
AMONG OUR GLOBAL COMPETITORS AND UNLEASH THE GROWTH OF JOBS AND PAYCHECKS
HERE AT HOME. ABOVE ALL, IT MAKES CLEAR THE AMERICA -- THAT AMERICA'S NEW TAX
CODE WOULD BE SIMPLE, FAIR, AND FOCUSED ON HELPING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. AS
PRESIDENT REAGAN PUT IT, THE ONLY SPECIAL INTEREST THAT COUNTS. ALL THE WORK HAS
BROUGHT US TO THIS MOMENT AND WE HAVE MORE IMPORTANT WORK AHEAD OF US TO
FINALIZE THE BILL. LET'S NOT WAVER NOW. LET'S NOT GIVE INTO THE WASHINGTON STATUS
QUO NOT WHEN TAX REFORM IS SO CLOSE. THIS IS OUR ONCE IN A GENERATION
OPPORTUNITY TO DELIVER HISTORIC TAX REFORM THAT WE AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE
CAN ALL BE PROUD OF. IF WE REMAIN COMMITTED TO THE PRINCIPLES THAT HAVE GUIDED
US FROM THE BEGINNING, GOING BOLD, UNLEASHING AMERICAN COMPETITIVENESS, AND
MAKING OUR TAX CODE SIMPLER AND MORE FAIR FOR ALL AMERICANS, I AM CONFIDENT WE
WILL. I RECOGNIZE SENATOR HATCH FOR HIS OPENING REMARKS.
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00:05:24
SEN. HATCH
THANK YOU. I AM HAPPY TO BE HERE WITH ANYBODY AND THIS IS ONE OF THE TRULY
IMPORTANT ASPECTS OF OUR COUNTRY THAT WE CAN SIT AN OPEN MEETING IN FRONT OF
EVERYBODY AND TALK ABOUT WHAT WE WILL DO WITH REGARD TO TAX REFORM. I WANT TO
COVENANT CHAIRMAN BRADY AND -- COMPLEMENT CHAIRMAN BRADY IN THE HOUSE
MEMBERS FOR THE WORK THEY HAVE DONE. THEY HAVE DONE A TREMENDOUS JOB, BOTH
REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS AND I AM PROUD OF THEM. I WANT TO COME CLEMENT --
COMPLEMENT OUR SENATORS -- COM PLIMENT OUR SENATORS. WE HAVE GOOD PEOPLE AND
HOPEFULLY WE CAN BRING THIS TO CLOSURE AND DO IT IN THE BEST INTEREST OF OUR
COUNTRY. THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN, THAT IS ENOUGH FOR ME.
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00:06:13
CHAIR
I RECOGNIZE RICHIE NEAL.

00:06:17
IT WOULD BE LIKE -- I WOULD LIKE TO BE RECOGNIZED ON A POINT OF PERSONAL PRIVILEGE.

I WOULD LIKE TO MOVE THAT CONFERENCE COMMITTEE POSTPONE ITS WORK AND ACTIVITY
UNTIL THE NEW SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF ALABAMA IS SWORN IN TO OFFICE SO HE
MIGHT CAST A VOTE BASED ON THE PRESIDENT THAT WAS APPLIED -- THE PRECEDENT THAT
WAS ALLOWED .
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00:06:44
CHAIR
THE MOTION IS NOT AVAILABLE AND WE WILL CONTINUE.

00:06:48
MIGHT I BE ALLOWED TO QUESTION THE RULING?

00:06:55
CHAIR
I WILL RECOGNIZE YOU FOR YOUR OPENING STATEMENT. IN LIGHT OF LAST NIGHT'S
ELECTION I DO NOT BELIEVE WE SHOULD BE HOLDING TODAY'S MEETING. IN FACT, IT IS
IMPERATIVE THAT WE RESPECT THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE OF ALABAMA AND DELAY ANY
FURTHER ACTION ON THIS TAX BILL UNTIL SENATOR ELECT JONES CAN BE SEATED. THE
SITUATION IS NOT UNPRECEDENTED. AS RECENTLY AS 2010 MY STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS
ELECTED SCOTT BROWN TO SUCCEED TED KENNEDY. FOLLOWING THE ELECTION, WE HEARD
STRONG WORDS FROM SENATOR MITCH MCCONNELL, THE LEADER OF THE REPUBLICAN
PARTY IN WHICH HE STATED AND FRANKLY, I THINK THE MESSAGE OF THE MOMENT IS THE
AMERICAN PEOPLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY ARE ASKING US EVEN IN THE MOST LIBERAL
STATE, MASSACHUSETTS, TO STOP THIS HEALTH CARE BILL. WHAT DID DEMOCRATS DO
QUESTION MARK WE WAITED AND RESPECTED THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE. EVEN WHEN IT WAS
HARD AGAINST OUR OWN POLITICS, DEMOCRATS DID THE RIGHT THING AND A LOT SENATOR
BROWN TO CAST THE FINAL VOTE. I HOPE WE CAN DO THE SAME THING TODAY. THE
PACKAGE IS A DEAL FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. THIS LEGISLATION RAISES TAXES ON
ONIONS OF MIDDLE-CLASS FAMILIES, INCREASES THE NATIONAL DEBT BY TWO POINT THREE
CHILEAN DOLLARS, AND ELIMINATES DEDUCTIONS THAT HELP AMERICANS -- THAT HELP
AMERICANS BY HOME AND GO TO COLLEGE. AND TO SENIORS WITH ALZHEIMER'S AND
STUDENTS, THIS BILL PUNISHES AMERICANS OF EVERY STAGE OF LIFE. AS THE NEW YORK
TIMES REPORTED GIVEN THE SHIFT AS TO HOW THEY WILL TAX INCOME THE TAX CODE
SUBSTANTIALLY WILL PUNISH THE WAGE EARNER FOR PROVIDING -- AND PROVIDE MASSIVE
BENEFITS TO SHAREHOLDERS. THIS IS A MISSED OPPORTUNITY. DEMOCRATS WILL FOCUS ON
TAX REFORM THAT PROVIDES RELIEF TO ALL MEMBERS OF THE MIDDLE CLASS WITH THE
TAX CUT THAT, UNLIKE THE REPUBLICAN BILL IN FRONT OF US TODAY, WOULD ACTUALLY
PROVIDE THEM WITH SOME RELIEF. OUR REPUBLICAN FRIENDS CLAIM THAT THE BILL HELPS
SMALL BUSINESSES. THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM HEARING BACK HOME WHO HAVE BEEN
EXCLUDED FROM MUCH OF THIS RELIEF. I TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE UNIQUE SUIT --
CIRCUMSTANCES FOR PUERTO RICO AND THE VERSION ISLANDS. THEY ARE STILL IN THE
PROCESS OF REBUILDING AND PUTTING THE PIECES OF THEIR LIVES BACK TOGETHER. THE
LAST THING THEY NEED IS TO GET HIT AGAIN. CONCEPTION ON THEIR CARDS AND THEY WILL
AFTER -- THEY'RE GOING AFTER MEDICAID AND SOCIAL SECURITY TO JUSTIFY THE TAX CUT.
THEY ARGUE WE CAN NO LONGER FOR THESE PROGRAMS AFTER YANKING TO PRINT THE --
$2.3 TRILLION FROM FEDERAL EXPENDITURE. I HOPE WE WILL HAVE A FULL DISCUSSION AND
DEBATE ON THE POTENTIAL THAT HAS BEEN SUGGESTED IN MEDIA ACCOUNTS THAT THE TOP
RATE IS BEING FROM 39.6 TO 37% TO ACCOMMODATE INDIVIDUALS IN AMERICA WHO ARE
NOW COMPLAINING ABOUT THE ELIMINATION OF THE STATE AND LOCAL TAX DEDUCTION. I
YIELD BACK.
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00:09:51
CHAIR
THANK YOU. SENATOR WYDEN.
00:09:56
SENATOR WYDEN
THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE WITNESSING A MASTER CLASS IN HOW ONE POLITICAL PARTY
RELYING ON SECRECY, DISTORTION, AND BRUTE FORCE CAN MUSCLE AN UNPOPULAR
CORPORATE GIVEAWAY. THIS IS THE ULTIMATE BETRAYAL OF THE MIDDLE CLASS. IT DOES
NOT GIVE MIDDLE-CLASS AMERICANS THE TAX CUTS THEY DESERVE NOW AND IT TAKES
AWAY MEDICARE AND SOCIAL SECURITY LATER. NEWS JUST BROKE THAT REPUBLICANS
HAVE REACHED A FINAL AGREEMENT. THAT'S UNDERSTAND WHAT IS HAPPENING TODAY IS A
SHAM AREA THIS IS AN OBVIOUS ATTEMPT TO LEND CREDIBILITY TO A BASELESS
REPUBLICAN TALKING POINT ABOUT THE FOLLOWING REGULAR ORDER. NO ONE MISTAKES
THE CONFERENCE FOR REAL DEBATE. NOT WHEN REPUBLICANS WITH SPECIAL INTERESTS
LOBBYISTS HAVE WRAPPED UP THE REAL COST IN SECRET. THEY WILL THROW PARTIES ON K
STREET WHILE MIDDLE-CLASS PARENTS ARE STRUGGLING TO DETERMINE IF THEIR FAMILIES
ARE GOING TO BE AMONG THE MILLIONS OF LOSERS. FROM THE TOP, REPUBLICANS HAVE
HAD AN UNDIVIDED FOCUS ON DELIVERING THE SWEETEST POSSIBLE DEAL TO THE
MULTINATIONAL CORPORATIONS AND THE POWERFUL. PERMANENT CORPORATE BREAK,
HUGE NEW LOOPHOLES AND ATTACK SITE -- A TAX HIKE ON MIDDLE-CLASS TAXPAYERS AND
BIG NEW INCENTIVES FOR CORPORATIONS TO SHIP JOBS OVERSEAS WHILE TENS OF
MILLIONS OF AMERICANS EITHER GO WITHOUT HEALTH CARE OR SEE THEIR PREMIUMS
JUMP. THE DETAILS STILL LEAK OUT BUT MORE BAD NEWS FOR THE MIDDLE CLASS. THE
FINAL BILL WILL COME WITH AN ASTONISHING PRICE TAG AND IT IS BOUND TO DO A
TERRIBLE JOB GETTING HELP TO THOSE WHO NEED IT. IT IS CLEAR NOW THAT REPUBLICANS
DECIDED TO PASS ON A FINAL OPPORTUNITY TO TAKE A DIFFERENT TACK. TO PROTECT THE
MIDDLE-CLASS FROM HARM. THEY REPORTEDLY SETTLED ON BIGGER BREAKS FOR THOSE AT
THE TOP. A CAPSTONE ON A BUDGET BUSTING GIFT TO THE DONOR CLASS AND
CORPORATIONS. THE DEFICIT HAWKS WERE QUIET AT FIRST. THE PROSPECT OF AN UNPAID
FOR TAX BILL PILING ONTO THE NATIONAL DEBT. BUT THEY ARE SCREECHING AGAIN SEIZING
ON THE DEFICIT AS A PRETAX TO CUT MEDICAID, SOCIAL SECURITY, ANTIFUNGAL OR
PROGRAMS -- ANTIHUNGER PROGRAMS AND MORE. I DOES NOT HAVE TO BE THIS WAY. THE
TAX CODE IS BROKEN. DEMOCRATS AGREE. 17 MODERATE DEMOCRATS ASKED FOR A
BIPARTISAN BILL. I HAVE WRITTEN AS THE CHAIRMAN KNOWS TO FULL BIPARTISAN TAX
REFORM BILLS. IT DID NOT HAVE TO BE THIS WAY AND IT IS NOT TOO LATE FOR BOLD
MEMBERS ON EITHER SIDE TO REJECT THIS RECKLESS PARTISAN PROCESS, WORK ON A
BIPARTISAN BASIS AS RONALD REAGAN DID TO PUT THE INTERESTS OF THE MIDDLE-CLASS
FIRST. I YIELD THE BALANCE OF MY TIME AS WE DISCUSSED. I WOULD LIKE TO ASK SENATOR
MURRAY'S STATEMENT BE ENTERED.
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00:13:04
OBJECTION.
00:13:07
I HAVE A MOTION IN WRITING PERTAINING TO THE FORMAT OF TODAY'S MEETING AND I

WOULD URGE ITS CONSIDERATION.
00:13:17
CHAIR
UNDER THE RULES THE MOTION IS AVAILABLE. WE WILL CONTINUE.

00:13:19
IS IT YOU'RE ROLLING YOU WILL NOT PERMIT THE MOTION TO BE PRESENTED? I WOULD
RESPECTFULLY APPEAL THE RULING AS THE CHAIR. I UNDERSTAND YOUR DESIRE BUT I
WOULD URGE MY MOTION. IN THAT CASE I WOULD OFFER ANOTHER MOTION AREA --
MOTION AT THE DESK. IT IS A PRIVILEGED MOTION UNDER THE SENATE AND HOUSE RULES
AND WOULD URGE ITS CONSIDERATION AT THIS TIME AND IT IS CONSISTENT WITH THE
ROLES OF THE HOUSE AND SENATE AND OF THIS CONFERENCE.
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00:13:50
CHAIR
WE WILL RETURN TO REGULAR ORDER.

00:13:51
REGULAR ORDER IS TO CONSIDER PRIVILEGED MOTIONS WHEN THEY ARE ORDERED EVEN
WHEN YOU DO NOT WANT TO CONSIDER THEM. WE ARE UNDER IN -- WE ARE UNDER
CONFERENCE AND SENATE RULES, NOT PUTIN ROULES.
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00:14:10
CHAIR
THERE ARE A FEW RULES THAT GOVERN HOW WE CONDUCT A CONFERENCE COMMITTEE. WE
HAVE ONE PUBLIC MEETING WHICH WE ARE DOING TODAY. AS I ADVISED IN ADVANCE, THE
PROCESS THIS MEETING -- PURPOSE OF THIS MEETING IS TO MAKE STATEMENTS AND ASK
TECHNICAL QUESTIONS OF MR. BARR TOLD.
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00:14:28
I HAVE A HIGHLY PRIVILEGED MOTION UNDER THE HOUSE AND SENATE RULES THAT ARE
APPLICABLE CALLING FOR AN ADJOURNMENT UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS AND I
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00:14:40
CHAIR
THE MERCIAN -- MOTION IS NOT AVAILABLE. YOU WILL NOT INTERRUPT AGAIN UNTIL HE
CONTINUED THE HEARING.
00:14:48
I WILL INTERRUPT INTO YOU HONOR THE MOTION AND FOLLOW THE RULES. IT IS REGULAR
ORDER.
00:14:58
CHAIR
MR. NUNES, YOU ARE RECOGNIZED.

00:15:00
MR. NUNES
THANK YOU FOR YOUR LEADERSHIP AND CONTINUED DEDICATION TO REFORMING OUR
NATION'S BROKEN TAX CODE. WE ARE ON THE BRINK OF FUNDAMENTALLY TRANSFORMING
OUR TAX SYSTEM AND I WANT TO TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO REITERATE WHAT I BELIEVE
SHOULD BE INCLUDED IN THE FINAL BILL. SPECIAL INTEREST IN WASHINGTON ARE
CONSTANTLY ADDING NEW PROVISIONS TO THE TAX CODE, MAKING IT INCREASINGLY
COMPLEX AND RIFE WITH LOOPHOLES. THE CURRENT TAX CODE DISTORTS BUSINESS
DECISIONS AS A RESULT AND MAKES IT NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR SMALL BUSINESSES TO
COMPETE ON THE LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. THE FINAL BILL REPORTED OUT OF THIS
COMMITTEE MUST STRIVE TO WIPE THE TAX CODE CLEAN AND REPLACE IT WITH SIMPLER
AND MORE TRANSPARENT RULES. IN ADDITION TO POLICIES PROMOTING SIMPLE VOCATION
MEASURES AIMED AT UNLEASHING SMALL BUSINESS GROWTH SHOULD BE INCLUDED IN THE
FINAL PACKAGE. ONE OF THIS IS FULL AND IMMEDIATE EXPENSING FOR CLEMENT NEW AND
USED WHICH I HAVE ETIQUETTE -- ADVOCATED FOR. THIS WOULD PROVIDE A STRONG
INVESTMENT -- INCENTIVE TO CREATE JOBS, BOOST WAGES, AND SPARK ECONOMIC GROWTH.
ANOTHER STRONG INVENTIVE -- INCENTIVE WHICH WAS INCLUDED IN HR ONE IS EXTENDING
THE LOWER PASS-THROUGH RATE OF 25% TO PASSIVE BUSINESS INCOME. THIS WOULD
PROVIDE INCENTIVES FOR ENTREPRENEURSHIP AND OVERALL BUSINESS INVESTMENT FOR
STARTUPS AND SMALL BUSINESSES. THE PROVISIONS I HAVE MENTIONED WILL CREATE
ECONOMIC GROWTH, A GOAL FOR WHICH MY REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRATIC, --
COLLEAGUES HAVE PLEDGED THEIR SUPPORT. WE MUST ASK OURSELVES WHETHER WE
WANT TO STICK WITH TODAY'S COMPLEX PUNITIVE AND UNFAIR TAX CODE, OR TAKE THE
COURAGEOUS STEP NECESSARY TO UNSHACKLE OUR ECONOMY TO THE BENEFIT OF ALL
AMERICANS. WITH THAT, I YIELD BACK.
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00:16:54
I WOULD HAVE A QUESTION IF I MIGHT IF THERE IS AN AGREEMENT FROM THE REPUBLICAN

SIDE REGARDING THE CONFERENCE COMMITTEE. WILL WE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO SEE
THAT? WE WILL BE ASKING MR. BARR TOLD -- BARTHOLD QUESTIONS. WHAT I AM HEARING
FROM THE LOBBYISTS DOWNTOWN WHO ARE CIRCULATING THE BILL, I'M ASSUMING THAT
THEY ARE ACCURATE.
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00:17:27
CHAIR
UNDER THE RULES OF THE CONFERENCE COMMITTEE THE COMMITTEE REPORT IS FILED. THE
PUBLIC AND MEMBERS WILL HAVE FULL OPPORTUNITY TO EXAMINE THAT REPORT AND
UNDER THE REGULAR PROCESS, A VOTE IN THE HOUSE AND SENATE.
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00:17:41
WHEN ARE YOU ANTICIPATING THAT BEING FILED?

00:17:45
CHAIR
THE TIMETABLE WILL BE DRIVEN BY THE COMPLETION OF THE CONFERENCE COMMITTEE

REPORT.
00:17:48
WILL IT BE BEFORE ASKING QUESTIONS OF STAFF SO WE KNOW WHAT WE ARE ASKING
ABOUT? IT IS DIFFICULT. I APPRECIATE WE ARE HERE.
00:18:05
CHAIR
I ANTICIPATE THE COMMITTEE WILL FILE ITS REPORT AT THE END OF THIS WEEK.
00:18:08
BUT TODAY WE ARE ASKING QUESTIONS? COULD YOU GIVE US A HINT TO WE ARE ASKING --
WHAT WE ARE ASKING QUESTIONS ABOUT QUESTION MARK
00:18:19
CHAIR
THE SENATE PASSED A BILL AND THE HOUSE DID AND SO WE WILL BE QUESTIONING MR.
BARTHOLD ON THE TWO BILLS.
00:18:27
THANK YOU FOR CONVENING THIS IMPORTANT MEETING. THIS IS AN IMPORTANT DAY AS WE
TAKE ANOTHER STEP CLOSER TOWARD ENACTING THE HISTORIC TAX REFORM THAT WILL
HELP BOOST AMERICA'S ECONOMY, THAT WILL MAKE THE SYSTEM SIMPLER AND FAIR AND IT
WILL PUT MORE MONEY IN PEOPLE'S POCKETS. THIS WILL HELP GROW THE ECONOMY,
CREATE MORE JOBS, AND IT WILL RAISE WAGES FOR HARD-WORKING FAMILIES. THE TIME
FOR REFORMING OUR TAX CODE IS LONG OVERDUE AND OUR ECONOMY, BUSINESSES, AND
AMERICAN FAMILIES ARE PAYING THE PRICE. SINCE WE LAST TRANSFORMED OUR TAX CODE
30 YEARS AGO GLOBALIZATION, THE EMERGENCE OF NEW TECHNOLOGIES, CHANGES IN THE
LABOR FORCE HAVE TRANSFORMED THE WAY OUR ECONOMY OPERATES. IT IS PAST TIME FOR
US TO ACT TO MODERNIZE OUR TAX CODE SO THAT OUR NATION CAN REMAIN COMPETITIVE
IN THE 20 FIRST CENTURY ECONOMY. OUR CURRENT CODE IS AN OUTDATED MASS THAT IS
HURTING AMERICAN WORKERS AND HOLDING OUR ECONOMY BACK. THAT IS WHY WE NEED
TAX REFORM THAT WILL ENSURE THE COMPETITIVE FOOTING OF OUR BUSINESSES AND
MAKE OUR SYSTEM SIMPLER AND FAIR AND 11 PEOPLE TO KEEP MORE OF WHAT THEY EARN.
THE TAX CUTS AND JOBS ACT WILL DO THAT. IT WILL PROVIDE TAX RELIEF FOR HARD-
WORKING AMERICANS AND MAKE CHANGES TO OUR TAX CODES THAT BUSINESSES LARGE
AND SMALL NEED TO HELP GROW THE ECONOMY AND CREATE JOBS. IF YOU CARE ABOUT
JOBS FOR IF YOU CARE ABOUT AMERICAN COMPANIES STAYING HERE AND COMPETING
GLOBALLY, YOU SHOULD CARE ABOUT REFORMING OUR BUSINESS TAX SYSTEM. AMERICA
HAS THE FOURTH HIGHEST CORPORATE TAX RATE IN THE WORLD. WE NEED TO ENCOURAGE
COMPANIES TO REMAIN IN THE U.S. AND BRING BACK THEIR OVERSEAS MONEY TO INCREASE
THE NUMBER OF JOBS IN THE U.S. LOWERING OUR UNCOMMONLY HIGH NONCOMPETITIVE
TAX RATE WOULD BE ONE OF THE QUICKEST WAYS TO SOLVE THAT PROBLEM. IT IS TIME TO
MAKE AMERICA A MORE INVITING PLACE TO INVEST, TO BUSINESS, AND CREATE JOBS. IT
WOULD PROVIDE RELIEF TO SMALL FAMILY-OWNED BUSINESSES. THEY EMPLOY THE
MAJORITY OF THE PRIVATE SECTOR PARTICULARLY IN WYOMING. THESE ARE PART OF THE
BACKBONE OF OUR COMMUNITIES AND WE WANT TO HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO GROW AND
PROVIDE MORE JOBS. I JOIN MY COLLEAGUES NOT ONLY IS THE CHAIRMAN OF THE SENATE
BUDGET COMMITTEE AND THE MEMBER OF THE FINANCE COMMITTEE TO MY BUT ALSO AS
AN ACCOUNTANT AND FORMER SMALL BUSINESS OWNER. I BELIEVE THIS BILL WILL MAKE
CRITICAL AND LONG-DUE CHANGES THAT WILL HELP JUMPSTART OUR ECONOMY.
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00:21:02
CHAIR
SENATOR LEVIN.
00:21:06
SENATOR LEVIN
THANK YOU. THE HEADLINES SAY REPUBLICANS SAY THEY HAVE A DEAL ON TAX BILL AND
WE'RE HAVING A CONFERENCE COMMITTEE ON TWO BILLS THAT PASSED THE TWO HOUSES.
THIS IS INDEED A MOCKERY. THE HORSE IS OUT OF THE BARN. BUT IT IS LIMPING. IT IS
LIMPING BADLY. OF ALL THE FAKE CLAIMS WE HAVE HEARD THE GREATEST IS THAT THE
REPUBLICAN TAX BILLS ARE FOCUSED ON HELPING THE MIDDLE CLASS. IT IS INTERESTING
IN YOUR LANGUAGE YOU DROP TO THAT. -- YOU DROPPED THAT. WHY? THE TRUTH IS MIDDLE
INCOME AMERICANS WILL BE FORCED TO PAY HIGHER TAXES UNDER THESE BILLS. IN 2019,
NEARLY 13 MILLION AMERICANS WITH INCOMES BELOW $200,000 A YEAR WOULD PAY HIGHER
TAXES UNDER THE HOUSE AND SENATE BILLS. I 2027, OVER 32 MILLION WOULD PAY HIGHER
TAXES UNDER THE HOUSE BILL AND NEARLY 38 MILLION UNDER THE SENATE BILL. TELL US
WHAT IT IS IN YOUR BILL IF YOU WILL TAKE IT FROM UNDER THE TABLE. THESE COME FROM
PROPOSALS TO LIMIT THE STATE AND LOCAL TAX REDUCTION AND OTHER PROVISIONS. THE
REPUBLICAN CLAIM THAT THEIR BILLS ARE AIMED AT HELPING THE MIDDLE CLASS TRULY
DESERVES FOUR PINOCCHIOS. THE SECOND OUTRAGE IS THAT CUTS FROM THE TOP PAY FOR
THEMSELVES AND THE $2.3 BILLION IN NEW DEBT THAT WOULD BE AMASSED UNDER THE
CHANGES WOULD BE ERASED BY ECONOMIC GROWTH. IN REALITY, THE MIDDLE CLASS
WOULD GET STUCK WITH THE BILL FOR THIS DEBT. EITHER THROUGH EFFORT -- A FUTURE
DEFICIT TAX OR TWO CUTS OF PROGRAMS THEY DEPEND ON SUCH AS MEDICARE. THOSE
OVER -- EARNING OVER $1 MILLION A YEAR WOULD GET AN AVERAGE TAX CUT OF OVER
$73,000 IN 2019 UNDER REPUBLICAN PROPOSALS. AT LEAST THOSE WE HAVE SEEN AND IT MAY
BE WORSE AS YOU ARE LOWERING THE RATE ON THE UPPER INCOME. THIS IS TRULY CLASS
WARFARE. THE REPUBLICAN WARFARE AGAINST THE MIDDLE CLASS AND ALL WHO ASPIRE.
YOU ARE WORKING IN DESPERATION, NOT IN DELIBERATION. YOU WILL CREATE NEW TAX
HOLES THAT WILL PLAGUE US FOR YEARS AND SLAPDASH PROPOSALS MAY MAKE THE
PROBLEM WORSE. I WAS GOING TO WRITE WE NEED TO HIT THE PAUSE BUTTON BEFORE IT IS
TOO LATE TRADE YOU HAVE MADE IT TOO LATE, A MOCKERY OUT OF THIS PROCESS.
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00:24:14
CHAIR
THANK YOU. SENATOR SANDERS, YOU ARE RECOGNIZED.

00:24:18
A SENATOR SANDERS
THANK YOU. AS YOU KNOW AND A VERRILLI AT THIS CONFERENCE, SO-CALLED CONFERENCE
COMMITTEE IS A FARCE ACCORDING TO MEDIA REPORTS, THE FINAL LEGISLATION HAS
ALREADY BEEN COMPLETED. THIS LEGISLATION WHICH WILL HAVE A MAJOR IMPACT ON OUR
ECONOMY, HAS NOT HAD ONE PUBLIC HEARING. NOT HEARING FROM ECONOMISTS, FROM
GOVERNORS, FROM MAYORS, FROM THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY, FROM ORDINARY
AMERICANS AS TO WHAT THE IMPACT OF THIS LEGISLATION WILL BE. THIS IS LEGISLATION
WRITTEN FOR WEALTHY CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTORS. I WANT TO CONGRATULATE SOME OF
MY REPUBLICAN COLLEAGUES FOR BEING HONEST ABOUT THAT. WHAT THEY SAID PUBLICLY
IS THEY DO NOT PASS THIS BILL, THEIR WEALTHY FRIENDS WILL STOP COUNTRY READING. I
APPRECIATE THAT HONESTY. THIS LEGISLATION NOT ONLY HAD NO PUBLIC HEARINGS, BUT IT
DID HAVE 6000 WASHINGTON, D.C. LOBBYISTS WORKING ON IT BEHIND CLOSED DOORS.
EVERY POLL THAT I HAVE SEEN SHOWS THAT BY OVERWHELMING NUMBERS, THE IRAQ AND
PEOPLE DO NOT WANT THIS BILL TO BE PASSED. THEY KNOW THAT IN THE SENATE BILL IN
THE MIDST OF MASSIVE INCOME AND WEALTH INEQUALITY, 62% OF THE BENEFITS GO TO THE
TOP. 1% AND 42% OF THE BENEFITS GO TO THE TOP. 1/10 OF 1%. IN AMERICA TODAY, THE VERY
WEALTHY ARE BECOMING MUCH MORE WEALTHY WHILE THE MIDDLE CLASS CONTINUES TO
SHRINK. AND YOUR SOLUTION IS TO GET 62% OF THE BENEFITS TO THE TOP 1%. THE
AMERICAN PEOPLE ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT THE END OF 10 YEARS, 83 MILLION MIDDLE-
CLASS FAMILIES WILL SEE THEIR TAXES GO UP UNDER THE SENATE BILL. THEY KNOW THAT
WITH 13 MILLION AMERICANS LOSING THEIR HEALTH INSURANCE, HEALTH CARE PREMIUMS
ARE THE -- ON THE INDIVIDUAL MARKET WILL INCREASE BY 10%. THEY KNOW THE THAT
DESPITE THE REPUBLICANS TELLING US HOW CONCERNED YOU ARE ABOUT THE DEFICIT,
THE DEFICIT WILL GO UP BY $1.4 TRILLION OVER THE NEXT 10 YEARS. WITH THE AMERICAN
PEOPLE ALSO ARE DEEPLY CONCERNED ABOUT IS WHAT HOUSE SPEAKER RYAN IS TALKING
ABOUT. WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT IS THAT AFTER YOU RAISE THE DEFICIT BY $1.4
TRILLION BY GIVING HUGE TAXPAYER -- BREAKS TO THE WEALTHY AND CORPORATIONS
YOU'LL COME BACK AND CUT SOCIAL SECURITY, MEDICARE, AND MEDICAID AND
EDUCATION AND THE NEEDS OF WORKING FAMILIES. WHAT KIND OF DECENCY IS THAT?
WHERE WE HAVE LEGISLATION AGAINST MASSIVE TAX BREAKS TO BILLIONAIRES AND
COMES BACK IN MONTHS TO CUT SOCIAL SECURITY AND MEDICARE AND MEDICAID? THIS
BILL MUST NOT BE PASSED.
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00:27:18
CHAIR
YOU ARE RECOGNIZED FOR AN OPENING STATEMENT.

00:27:22
THANK YOU. 50 YEARS FROM NOW, ECONOMIC HISTORIANS AND SOCIAL SCIENTISTS ARE
GOING TO LOOK BACK AT THIS MOMENT, AND WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT RIGHT NOW IS
BIGGER THAN TAX REFORM. BECAUSE OF YOU PEEL THIS DISCUSSION BACK, WHAT YOU WILL
SEE IS TWO VIEWS OF THE ECONOMY THAT ARE COMPETING FOR THE AFFECTIONS OF THE
AMERICAN PEOPLE. IT IS TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT WORLD VIEWS. ONE OF THEM IS A CUL-
DE-SAC. IT IS THE ECONOMICS OF ENVY. THAT WAS THE DESCRIPTION IN A NUTSHELL OF
SENATOR SANDERS A MINUTE AGO. BY CONTRAST, THERE IS THE ECONOMICS OF INVITATION
AND OPPORTUNITY. AND IN MY OPINION, THAT IS WHAT THIS DEBATE IS ALL ABOUT. THAT IS
WHY IT IS SO HOPEFUL. THE AMERICAN PUBLIC HAS BEEN TOLD IN THE PREVIOUS
ADMINISTRATION YOU ARE STUCK IN YOUR STATION IN LIFE AND THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN
GET OUT OF YOUR STATION IN LIFE IS THE SUM FEDERAL PROGRAM COMES OVER THE HILL
AND PULLS YOU OUT. I AM NOT AGAINST FEDERAL PROGRAMS BUT YOU TAKE MY POINT. WE
NEED A GENERATION OF MILLENNIALS WHO ARE COMING TO FRUITION AND COMING TO
MATURITY AND AN ECONOMY THAT IS GROWING AND VIBRANT AND DYNAMIC. WHAT IS SO
INTERESTING IS THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE LONGING TO BE KINDLED AND COAXED AND
CAJOLED OUT OF THE CUL-DE-SAC OF ENVY AND ONTO A HIGHWAY OF OPPORTUNITY. WHAT
IT -- WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO IT, THE PROOF IS THAT IS WHO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE.
WE HAVE HISTORICALLY NOT BEEN A JEALOUS PEOPLE. HOW DO I KNOW THAT? WHEN
PEOPLE ARE SUCCESSFUL AROUND US, WHAT DO WE SAY? HOW NICE FOR YOU. HERE IS WHY
WE SAY THAT. WE THINK THAT COULD BE ME. THAT COULD BE MY KIDS, THAT COULD BE MY
GRANDCHILDREN. WE KNOW TIME AND TIME AGAIN THE STORIES OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE
GONE FROM INCREDIBLY MODEST BACKGROUNDS, SOME OF THEM ARE SITTING AT THESE
TABLES, TO INCREDIBLE SUCCESS WITHIN A LIFETIME AND SO FORTH. TAX REFORM MATTERS
AS A FOUNDATION. IT IS AT THE FOUNDATION OF THIS BUT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A
TRAJECTORY THAT IS GOING TO IMPACT OUR NATION LIKE NO OTHER VOTE THAT CONGRESS
IS GOING TO TAKE. LET ME MAKE THIS POINT. WE ALL LONG FOR AMERICA TO BE A STRONG
DIPLOMATIC POWER. AMERICA NEEDS TO BE A STRONG MILITARY POWER AND IN ORDER TO
DO THAT AMERICA NEEDS TO BE A STRONG ECONOMIC POWER. WE CAN DO A CREDIBLE
THINGS IF WE FOCUS AND RECOGNIZE WHERE WE ARE AND WHERE WE NEED TO GO. I ASK
UNANIMOUS CONSENT TO ADMIT FOR THE RECORD AN EDITORIAL FROM THE CHICAGO
TRIBUNE FROM DECEMBER 5 ENTITLED "THIS TAX THE LAW WILL MAKE AMERICA MORE
PROSPEROUS."
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00:30:06
CHAIR
WITHOUT OBJECTION. SENATOR MURKOWSKI.

00:30:14
SENATOR MURKOWSKI
THANK YOU. THIS EFFORT BEFORE US, TAX REFORM WILL BE GOOD FOR OUR ECONOMY,
GOOD FOR JOBS AND GROWTH, GOOD FOR MAC AND FAMILIES AND BUSINESSES AND I AM
PROUD TO BE ABLE TO SUPPORT THIS EFFORT TO REFORM OUR TAX POLICIES. I AM ALSO
PROUD TO BE THE LEAD AUTHOR OF OUR ENERGY TITLE WHICH CONTAINS THE SINGLE MOST
IMPORTANT STEP THAT I BELIEVE WE CAN TAKE TO STRENGTHEN OUR LONG-TERM ENERGY
SECURITY, AND CREATE NEW WEALTH, CREATE NEW WEALTH. WE FOUGHT LONG TO
AUTHORIZE A PROGRAM FOR RESPONSE WERE ENERGY DEVELOPMENT IN ALASKA'S NON-
WILDERNESS AREA WHICH CONGRESS SET ASIDE FOR EVALUATION OF ITS OIL AND GAS
POTENTIAL. WE HAVE STRENGTHENED THIS WITH AN COMMITTEE BY ADOPTING A
BIPARTISAN AMENDMENT FROM SENATOR CASSIDY, STRANGE, AND KURT MY AND WILL
INCREASE REVENUE SHARING FOR THAT GULF COAST FOR PRIORITIES LIKE COASTAL
RESTORATION AND HURRICANE PROTECTION. WE RAISED IN OUR TITLE MORE THAN $1
BILLION OVER THE NEXT 10 YEARS AND ONCE PRODUCTION BEGINS, IT WILL RAISE OVER
$100 BILLION FOR THE FEDERAL TREASURY. THIS IS NEW WEALTH FROM RESPONSIBLE
DEVELOPMENT AND THE INVESTMENT IT BRINGS. WE CREATE THOUSANDS OF JOBS IN
ALASKA AND ACROSS THE COUNTRY. WE HELP TO KEEP ENERGY AFFORDABLE, PROVIDING
FAMILIES AND BUSINESSES WITH A ENERGY TAX CUT. WE WILL PROTECT OUR NATIONAL
SECURITY BY REDUCING FOREIGN OIL DEPENDENCE, HELPING OUR WEST COAST STATES,
PARTICULARLY STATES LIKE WASHINGTON AND CALIFORNIA, THEIR REFINERIES RECEIVED
THE JOBS HERE. NONE OF THIS COMES AT THE EXPENSE OF OUR ENVIRONMENT OR
SACRIFICING OUR LOCAL VOICES. ALASKANS KNOW HOW TO PRODUCE ENERGY WHILE
PROTECTING THE ENVIRONMENT AND THANKS TO NEW TECHNOLOGIES, THE FOOTPRINT OF
DIFF ELEMENT IS EVEN SMALLER THAN EVER. OUR LANGUAGE IS PROTECTIVE, WE DO NOT
WAIVE ANY ENVIRONMENTAL REVIEW PROCESS OR CONSULTATION REQUIREMENTS WITH
ALASKA NATIVE PEOPLES IN ANYWAY. ALL WE LIMIT IS SERVICE DEVELOPMENT TO 2000
FEDERAL ACRES, THAT IS 110,000TH -- ONE TEN THOUSANDTH. THANK YOU.
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00:32:37
THANK YOU. I WOULD MOVE THAT THE CONFERENCE COMMITTEE STAND ADJOURNED. WITH
ITS WORK UNFINISHED UNTIL THE SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY, STEVEN MNUCHIN.
TOGETHER WITH THE DIRECTOR OF THE OFFICE OF TAX ANALYSIS CAN BE PRESENT FOR
QUESTIONING, BUT NO LATER THAN 2:00 P.M. MONDAY, DECEMBER 18.
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00:33:01
CHAIR
THE MOTION IS NOW AVAILABLE. -- NOT AVAILABLE. THE MOTION IS NOT AVAILABLE.
00:33:09
WHAT ARE THE COMMITTEE RULES OTHER THAN WE DO WHATEVER YOU WANT? IS THERE
ANY OTHER RURAL -- RULE ? PLEASE DO NOT TAKE THIS FROM MY TIME.
00:33:25
CHAIR
THERE ARE FEW RULES THAT GOVERN THIS COMMITTEE OTHER THAN WE HAVE ONE PUBLIC
MEETING. WE HEAR OUT OUR VIEWS UPON THESE TWO DIFFERENT TAX REFORM VEHICLES
AND EXPRESS OUR DESIRE OF WHAT WE NEED TO DO TO MOVE FORWARD ON TAX REFORM. I
RECOGNIZE YOU FOR AN OPENING STATEMENT.
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00:33:44
HOW MUCH TIME? I UNDERSTAND YOUR FEAR OF HAVING ANYONE RECORD A VOTE. I WOULD
REMIND YOU THAT THIS IS THE U.S. CONGRESS, NOT THE DUMA. THIS IS A PRIVILEGED
MOTION UNDER THE RULES ABOVE THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE AND IT OUGHT TO BE
CONSIDERED. THERE IS CONSIDERABLE HARM DONE BY THIS BILL. DRIVING UP THE
NATIONAL DEBT TO AN INCREDIBLE LEVEL THAT WILL ALLOW YOU TO USE THAT AS AN
EXCUSE TO UNDERMINE MEDICARE AND EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITY AND THE ENTIRE
SOCIAL SERVICES NET TO PROTECT PEOPLE ACROSS THIS COUNTRY. NOT TO MENTION THE
EFFECT ON LAW ENFORCEMENT AND OUR NATIONAL INFRASTRUCTURE. THERE IS THE GREAT
HARM THAT YOU DO IN FAVORING THOSE AT THE TOP AT THE EXPENSE OF STUDENTS, OF
THOSE THAT ARE SICK, OF OTHERS THAT LOSE THEIR DEDUCTION UNDER THIS BILL. THAT
WHITENING OF THE INCOME GAP IS A GREAT WRONG. THERE IS GREAT WRONG AND THE FACT
THAT YOU DECIDE TO CREATE GIANT NEW LOOPHOLES AND ALL THESE SECRET MEETINGS
YOU HAVE BEEN HAVING. GIANT NEW LOOPHOLES THAT WILL LEAD TO THE OUTSOURCING
OF MORE AMERICAN JOBS ABROAD THAT CREATE AN INCENTIVE FOR MULTINATIONALS TO
MOVE JOBS ABROAD. BUT YOU KNOW, ALL THESE WRONGS AND THE WRONGS THAT I HAVE
HEARD MY FELLOW COLLEAGUES TALK ABOUT TODAY AND I KNOW OTHERS WILL SPEAK
ABOUT, THEY ARE NOT THE GREATEST WRONG THAT IS OCCURRING HERE. WHAT WE ARE
SEEING TODAY WITH THIS AUTHORITARIAN ROLE WITH THE KIND OF APPROACH THAT IS
CLOSER TO ALL THOSE THIRD WORLD AUTHORITARIAN FIGURES THAT DONALD TRUMP LIKES
TO BE SO CLOSE TO, WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS A STEADY EROSION OF DEMOCRACY HERE IN
THE PEOPLE'S HOUSE AND IN THIS CONGRESS. REPUBLICANS HAVE DECIDED IT IS A LITTLE
BIT EASIER TO FORCE THROUGH LEGISLATION IF YOU DO NOT CONDUCT A PUBLIC HEARING
ON THAT LEGISLATION. AND SO, WHEN IT CAME TO TAKING AWAY HEALTH CARE FROM
MILLIONS OF AMERICANS, THEY CHOSE NOT TO HAVE A HEARING ON THE BILL. AND THEY
HAVE DECIDED THAT IT IS A LITTLE EASIER PARTICULARLY WITH THE TRUMP
ADMINISTRATION, IF YOU NEVER HAVE ANY OFFICIAL FROM THE ADMINISTRATION WITH THE
COURAGE TO COME AND ANSWER QUESTIONS ABOUT THE TOTAL HYPOCRISY BETWEEN
WHAT THE PRESIDENT TWEETS AND WHAT THEY ARE DOING IN THIS HOUSE IN THIS
CONGRESS. THEY HAVE DECIDED THAT IT IS A LITTLE EASIER TO APPROVE LEGISLATION IF
YOU DO NOT ALLOW MEMBERS OF THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY AND ACADEMIA AND
ORDINARY CITIZENS TO COME HERE AND COMMENT ON THIS, AND TODAY, IN THE HEIGHT OF
ABSURDITY, MINUTES AFTER THEY HAVE ANNOUNCED THAT THEY HAVE AN AGREED BILL,
WE DO NOT HAVE THAT BILL HERE. WE ARE TOLD TO MAKE SPEECHES AND ASK QUESTIONS,
TO JOINT TAX ABOUT A BILL THEY ARE NOT DISCLOSING. WE ARE TO ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT
A BILL THAT WAS BUT MAY NOT BE CURRENTLY THE BILL. WHAT WE DO KNOW IS THAT THIS
ENTIRE PROCESS IS A GREAT LIE WRAPPED IN A LIGHT --LIE. LIE.
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00:36:56
THANK YOU. IT IS A PLEASURE TO BE HERE WITH MY COLLEAGUES FROM BOTH CHAMBERS

FOR THIS IMPORTANT DISCUSSION ON HR 1, OUR CONVERSATION TODAY IN THIS
CONFERENCE COMMITTEE MEETING REPRESENTS AN IMPORTANT MOMENT FOR THE
AMERICAN PEOPLE. IT IS ANOTHER ESSENTIAL STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. IT IS A
MOMENT THAT REMINDS US TO THINK THAT HOW FAR WE HAVE COME AND HOW CLOSE WE
ARE TO DELIVERING A MUCH-NEEDED TAX RELIEF OR HARD -- FOR HARD-WORKING MIDDLE
INCOME AMERICANS. WITHOUT QUESTION, TAX REFORM HAS LONG BEEN A PRIORITY FOR
REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS. DURING MY SEVEN YEARS IN THE HOUSE SERVING ON THE
WAYS AND MEANS COMMITTEE, WE HAVE STUDIED, CONSIDERED, AND OUTLINED THE
SOURCE OF REFORM THAT COULD PROVIDE REAL BENEFITS OR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.
FOLLOWING LAST YEAR'S ELECTION, WE KNEW THAT THIS IS OUR YEAR TO FINALLY MAKE
TAX REFORM A REALITY. WE HAVE BEEN PREPARING FOR A LONG TIME FOR THIS DAY AND I
AM GRATEFUL FOR THE PRESIDENT SUPPORT OF OUR WORK EVERY STEP OF THE WAY.
EARLIER THIS FALL, I WAS PLEASED WHEN BOTH CHAMBERS AGREED TO THE SAME BUDGET
WHICH MARKED A MAJOR STEP FORWARD WITH OUR SHARED PRIORITY FOR A ONCE IN A
GENERATION TAX REFORM. YES, WE ARE STILL WORKING OUT OUR DIFFERENCES BETWEEN
THE HOUSE AND SENATE TAX BILLS. I AM ENCOURAGED THAT WE HAVE ALWAYS AGREED ON
THE SAME PRINCIPLES. FIRST AND FOREMOST, WE ALL RECOGNIZE THE NEED TO DO
SOMETHING ABOUT A HEAVY TAX BURDEN WEIGHING DOWN OUR HARD-WORKING
AMERICANS AND HOLDING BACK JOB CREATORS. WE RECOGNIZE THE TAX CODE IS TOO
COMPLICATED AND MUST BE SIMPLIFIED. THROUGH TAX REFORM, WE CAN HELP LOWER --
LOW AND MIDDLE INCOME AMERICANS SEE MORE OF THEIR HARD-EARNED PAYCHECKS AND
WE CAN EMPOWER ON SCREENERS AND SMALL BUSINESSES TO CONTINUE OPERATING AND
EXPENDING ON MAIN STREET. WE CAN MAKE IT EASIER FOR EVERYONE TO NAVIGATE THE --
NEEDLESSLY BURDENSOME TAX SYSTEM. WHILE THE NUMBERS UNDERSTANDABLY VARY
BETWEEN THE VERSIONS OF THE ACT, BOTH THOMAS THE ECONOMIC JOLT THAT OUR
COUNTRY NEEDS BADLY. AN AVERAGE MIDDLE INCOME FAMILY OF FOUR, THE HOUSE PASSED
BILL WOULD MEAN A TAX CUT OF $1200. THE HOUSE PASSED A BILL WOULD CREATE 18,000
NEW JOBS AND ALLOW FAMILIES TO SEE $2000 INCREASE IN THEIR WAGES IN MY STATE. I
REMIND EVERYONE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT REAL MONEY FOR REAL PEOPLE. DESPITE WHAT
THE CRITICS SAY, THIS IS NOT JUST A TAX CUT FOR THE WEALTHY. IT IS NOT A TAX INCREASE
ON THE POOR CREATE IT IS NOT AN ATTACK ON THE MIDDLE CLASS. OUR CONSERVATIVE TAX
REFORM DELIVERS TAX RELIEF AT EVERY INCOME LEVEL. IT PROTECTS MORE HARD-EARNED
DOLLARS AND TAXES -- IN TAXES. I YIELD BACK.
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00:40:05
CHAIR
SENATOR CORNER -- SENATOR CORNYN.

00:40:13
SENATOR CORNYN
I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU FOR YOUR TREMENDOUS WORK IN PARTNERSHIP IN THIS
EFFORT BRINGING US TO THIS POINT. I WANT TO THANK MY LEADER, CHAIRMAN HATCH OF
THE FINANCE COMMITTEE WHO HAS DONE A TREMENDOUS JOB AND ALL OF MY
COLLEAGUES IN THE SENATE FINANCE COMMITTEE FOR THEIR TREMENDOUS WORK. I WANT
TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE CHAIRMAN'S WORK THAT STARTED WITH A BUDGET RESOLUTION
THAT GAVE US TO THE -- GAVE US THE ABILITY TO MOVE FORWARD AND BROUGHT US TO
THIS POINT. SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE SAID TAX REFORM COULD NOT BE DONE. IT IS TOO HARD
AND THAT IS THE REASON IT HAD NOT BEEN DONE SINCE 1986. NO ONE WILL AGREE ON HOW
TO SIMPLIFY IT, NO ONE KNOWS HOW TO MAKE IT FAIR. NOBODY KNOWS HOW TO EASE THE
TAX BURDEN ON WORKING AMERICANS AND THE MIDDLE CLASS. TODAY, I AM GLAD TO SAY
THOSE NAYSAYERS WERE WRONG. NOT ONLY HAVE WE PASSED COMPREHENSIVE TAX
REFORM IN BOTH OF OUR RESPECTIVE CHAMBERS, WE HAVE DONE IT IN A WAY THAT WILL
HELP ALL AMERICANS. WE HAVE LOWERED RATES, THE CHILD TAX CREDIT HAS BEEN
DOUBLED, AND THE STANDARD DEDUCTION HAS BEEN DOUBLED AS WELL. COMPANIES ARE
INCENTIVIZED TO INVEST AND RELOCATE IN THE U.S. RATHER THAN TO TAKE THEIR
OPERATIONS AND INVESTMENTS AND JOBS OVERSEAS. TRUTHFULLY, SOME OF THIS WE HAVE
DONE BY ADOPTING SOME OF THE IDEAS OF SOME OF OUR COLLEAGUES ACROSS THE AISLE
OVER THE YEARS. THE SENATOR FROM OREGON HAD A GREAT PIECE OF LEGISLATION. IT WAS
CALLED THE CPOATES-WIDEN PLAN, RECOGNIZING THAT AMERICA HAD THE HIGHEST
CORPORATE TAX RATE IN THE WORLD AND THAT CHASED THOMPSON INVESTMENT
OVERSEAS. WE HAVE ADOPTED THAT CONCEPT ALONG WITH OTHER CONCEPTS AND
INCLUDED THIS IN THE BILL TO MAKE AMERICA'S TAX CODE MUCH MORE COMPETITIVE. I
WOULD SAY THAT IT IS INTERESTING LISTENING TO OUR FRIENDS ACROSS THE AISLE WHO
SEEM TO MAKE FOUR ARGUMENTS. THEY SAID WE HAVE NOT SEEN THE BILL AND THEN THEY
PROCEED TO CRITICIZE WHAT THEY THINK IS IN THE BILL. THEN THEY COMPLAIN ABOUT
THIS PROCESS SAYING THEY HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO PARTICIPATE WHEN THEY HAVE
VOLUNTARILY CHOSEN NOT TO PARTICIPATE IN THE PROCESS. I AM PROUD OF WHAT WE HAVE
BEEN ABLE TO DO, TO SIMPLE FIGHT THE CODE, REDUCE RATES, AND TO MAKE AMERICA OR
COMPETITIVE. WE DO NOT HAVE TO SETTLE FOR THE SAME OLD STATUS QUO THAT WE HAVE
SEEN OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS WITH ANY MAKE A ECONOMIC GROWTH AND INSUFFICIENT
JOB CREATION. I BELIEVE THIS IS A TAX REFORM PLAN THAT IS OPTIMISTIC AND WILL
PROVIDE GREAT OPPORTUNITIES, INCREASES IN WAGES, MORE TAKE-HOME PAY, AND MORE
JOBS AND INVESTMENT CREATED RIGHT HERE IN AMERICA. WE REJECT THE IDEA THAT
AMERICA CANNOT DO ANY BETTER THAN THE STATUS QUO WHICH SEEMS TO BE THE
ATTITUDE OF OUR COLLEAGUES ACROSS THE AISLE. CHAIR: THANK YOU.
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00:43:14
CHAIR
WE WILL HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR A SECOND ROUND OR ONE OF YOUR COLLEAGUES TO

YIELD TO YOU. REXAM WANT TO THANK YOU FOR YOUR LEADERSHIP. YOU HAVE LET US BE
LEGISLATORS AND THAT HAS GIVEN US THE GOOD OPTIONS THAT WE HAVE BEFORE US AND I
APPRECIATE THAT. I COME TO THIS TABLE AS A FARMER AND RANCHER, A SMALL BUSINESS
OWNER, BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY AS A MOM. I CAME TO MAKE SURE THE CODE REFLECTS
THE PRIORITIES WE HAVE AND I CAME TO FIGHT FOR THOSE IN SOUTH DAKOTA WHO HAVE
NOT BEEN HEARD BEFORE. THE AVERAGE HOUSEHOLD INCOME IN MY STATE IN SOUTH
DAKOTA, OUR PEOPLE PAY DOUBLE THE NATIONAL AVERAGE IN ENERGY COSTS. THAT MEANS
THEY HAVE VERY LITTLE EXTRA MONEY TO SPEND ON THEIR FAMILIES, OR KEEP A SAVINGS
ACCOUNT. WE NEED TO BUILD A HEALTHY ECONOMY THAT PAYS JOBS AND HIGHER WAGES.
SO THAT IS WHY IN THIS BILL, I FOUGHT NOT ONLY TO SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER TAX RATES,
BUT ALSO TO DRAMATICALLY EXPAND THE CHILD TAX CREDIT. TO MAKE SURE THAT WE
MAINTAIN INCENTIVES IN OUR TAX CODE. WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WE HAVE MONEY TO
BUILD NEW HOMES. THOSE ARE TOOLS FAMILIES CAN USE TO GIVE CHILDREN A GOOD START.
WHEN THOSE CHILDREN GIVE UP, I'M SURE THEY CAN FIND GOOD, HIGH-PAYING JOBS IN
AMERICA. WE NEED TO ENSURE THAT SMALL BUSINESSES CAN THRIVE UNDER THIS TAX
CODE. WE HAVE FULLY AND PERMANENTLY REPEALED THE DEATH TAX. I WANT TO THANK
THE CHAIRMAN FOR GETTING RID OF THAT UNPAIRED TAX. WE'VE KEPT A SMALL INTEREST
DEDUCTIBILITY OPTION AS WELL. I UNDERSTAND THAT NO TAX PLAN IS GOING TO BE
PERFECT IN EVERYONE'S EYES. WE HAD 12 HEARINGS IN THE WAYS AND MEANS COMMITTEE,
BUT WHAT I WANT TO REMIND EACH AND EVERY CONTRARY -- CONFEREE HERE IS THAT WE
DID NOT COME HERE TO MAKE A FEW TWEAKS AROUND THE EDGES. WE WERE CALLED HERE
TO MAKE SURE THAT OUR TAX CODE IS FIXED OR EVER. WE DO THIS ONCE EVERY 30 YEARS,
SO LET US NOT JUST TWEAK IT. LET US FIX IT FOR THE LONG-TERM. AMERICAN PEOPLE
DESERVE MORE CONTROL OVER THEIR PAYCHECKS. THEY'VE WORKED HARD FOR THAT
MONEY. THEY OUGHT TO BE THE ONES TO DECIDE HOW, WHERE, AND WHEN TO SEND IT. WITH
THAT, I TURN IT OVER.
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00:46:03
AS WE GO THROUGH THIS PROCESS, THE DENIAL OF MOTIONS, YOU ARE REFERRING TO THE
RULES OF THE CONFERENCE. I THINK I MISSING SOMETHING. WHEN DID WE ADOPT THOSE
RULES? WHEN WERE THEY DECIDED UPON? IT IS DIFFICULT NOT TO FEEL LIKE A PROP HERE.
IT IS LIKE THIS IS BEEN DECIDED ALREADY. THE UNPOPULAR PROVISION THAT SHOULD BE
FOISTED UPON THIS CONGRESS BY THESE PROCEDURES. IT SHOULD BE TAKEN OUT, AND THE
ISSUE IS THAT FOR THE NATIVE PEOPLE IT IS NOT JUST OPPOSITION. IT IS THE FACT THAT IT IS
NOT NECESSARY. IT IS WILDLY OPTIMISTIC THAT BECAUSE OF WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN
THE ARCTIC REFUGE, THAT THAT WILL OFFSET PART OF THE HUGE DEFICIT BEING CREATED
BY THIS LEGISLATION. WE DO NOT NEED THE OIL. WE ARE EXPORTING MILLIONS OF BARRELS
OF OIL PER DAY FROM THIS COUNTRY. AND I WOULD HOPE THERE IS CONSIDERATION GIVEN
TO THAT. BUT THERE ARE OTHER THINGS, AS WELL. THE ISSUE OF PUERTO RICO. THAT
FURTHER DEVASTATES THE ISLAND. THE RECOVERY HAS BEEN SHORTCHANGED BY
REGULATIONS. WE ARE RESPONDING TO THEIR NEEDS. WHILE I HAVE MANY CONCERNS
ABOUT THE TAX BILLS, INCLUDING MY REPUBLICANS -- MY REPUBLICAN COLLEAGUES
BLATANT ATTEMPT TO MAKE COLLEGE AND AFFORDABLE, LET ME JUST AND WITH THIS. I
HOPE THAT MY COLLEAGUES WILL HEAR WHAT THE WILL OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE IS.
THEY DO NOT WANT TO TAX GIVEAWAY TO BILLIONAIRES AT THE EXPENSE OF THE MIDDLE
CLASS, PLAIN AND SIMPLE. THEY DO NOT WANT WORKING FAMILIES TO CARRY THE BURDEN
OF THIS AND RISK SOCIAL SECURITY, MEDICARE, AND MEDICAID IN THE FUTURE. THIS IS NOT
THE POLITICS OF ENVY. THESE ARE THE POLITICS OF FAIRNESS. THIS BILL IS UNFAIR TO THE
VAST MAJORITY OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. IT IS A VEHICLE TO GET THINGS DONE, AND WITH
THE FREQUENT MISS OF IT AND THE FACT THAT SOME OF US FEEL LIKE PROPS, I THINK THE
AMERICAN PEOPLE FEEL THE SAME WAY. WITH THAT, I YIELD BACK.
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00:48:47
SENATOR CAMPBELL, YOU ARE RECOGNIZED.

00:49:00
SEN. CAMPBELL
THE LOW INCOME TAX CREDIT WAS PART OF THE 1980 SIX TAX ACT. SENATOR HATCH AND I
BELIEVE WE SHOULD BE EXPANDING THE AFFORDABLE TAX CREDIT. NINE FINANCE
COMMITTEE MEMBERS ARE COSPONSORS OF THE BILL. FOR REPUBLICAN COSPONSORS ARE
SITTING ON THIS CONFERENCE COMMITTEE, AS WELL AS THREE DEMOCRATIC COSPONSORS.
BUT THE TAX BILL BEFORE US GOES IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION. IT HAS POTENTIALLY
CRIPPLING IMPACT ON OUR NATION'S WAS VITAL PROGRAM FOR BUILDING AND
MAINTAINING VITAL AFFORDABLE HOUSING. NEARLY 10 MILLION AMERICANS ARE IN THIS
CRISIS OF AFFORDABILITY. LOOK AT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN TEXAS AND FLORIDA AS THEY
UNDERGO THE CRISIS OF REBUILDING. UNDER THE HOUSE PROPOSAL, THE TAX EXEMPT
STATUS WOULD BE ELIMINATED, INCLUDING A MULTI-HOUSING BOND WHICH WOULD
ACCOUNT FOR HALF OF ALL HOUSING PRODUCTION UNDER THE LOW INCOME HOUSING TAX
CREDIT. I KEEP HEARING JUSTIFICATIONS FOR GETTING RID OF THE BONDS. SOME OF THE
PEOPLE DO NOT LIKE THE ACTIVITIES. TELL ME WHICH ONES -- WHICH ONES OF YOU DO NOT
SUPPORT THAT. IF THAT IS THE CASE, PRESERVE THE HOUSING CREDIT. ACCORDING TO AN
ESTIMATE, 800,000 FEWER UNITS WILL BE BUILT OVER THE NEXT 10 YEARS BECAUSE OF THIS
HOUSE LANGUAGE. THE SENATE HAS PROBLEMS, AS WELL. AND OBVIOUSLY WE WANT TO
MAKE SURE COLLEAGUES UNDERSTAND THAT INVESTORS WHO ARE CURRENTLY UNABLE TO
DEDUCT AS A RESULT OF THE LIMIT ON THE RENTS TO MAKE SURE THAT HOUSING IS
AFFORDABLE. AFFORDABLE HOUSING PROJECTS DO NOT EARN RETURNS FOR THEIR
INVESTMENTS, LIKE PRIVATE REAL ESTATE. THE REDUCING THE TOP RATE DOES NOT
PROVIDE A BENEFIT AND WILL NOT INCREASE AN INCENTIVE. BECAUSE THE TAX DOCTORS
TAKE THIS UNDER PROPOSAL IT WILL BE WORTH CONSIDERABLY LESS AT 20%, COMPARED
WITH THE 35% RATE. THE RESULT IS THAT INVESTORS WILL PAY LESS FOR THE GIVEN CREDIT,
AND WE ESTIMATE IT WILL BE $2 BILLION LESS, ABOUT A 15% REDUCTION. WITH DVD
EROSION, WE BELIEVE THAT THOSE WHO ARE INVESTING ALONG WITH J.P. MORGAN CHASE
AND CITIGROUP THAT ACCOUNTS FOR $1.5 BILLION TO $2.5 BILLION. THIS WILL MAKE 15%
LESS FOR AFFORDABLE HOUSING. THESE THREE THINGS TAKEN TOGETHER WILL PROBABLY
IMPACT THE WAY IT THE BILL IS WRITTEN. IT WILL REDUCE BY 50% THE AMOUNT OF
AFFORDABLE HOUSING. I YIELD BACK.
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00:51:42
THE SENATOR FROM TEXAS JUST SAID THE REPUBLICAN BILL WILL FOLLOW THE LEAD OF
THE ONLY BIPARTISAN TAX REFORM BILL. THAT COULD NOT BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH.
HE IS TALKING ABOUT THE REPUBLICAN BILL. NOT KEEPING JOBS.
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00:52:00
MR. CHAIRMAN. PARLIAMENTARY INQUIRY. SO THAT IS NOT AVAILABLE. NOT EVEN IN

MOTION, BUT A MATTER OF PROCEDURE, MR. CHAIRMAN. THE FOREMAN OF THE
CONFERENCE COMMITTEE. MR. BARRTHOLD --
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00:52:29
WHEN CAN QUESTIONS AS TO PROCEDURE WHERE THE CONFERENCE WILL CONTINUE? WILL
IT BE ABLE TO RECONVENE AND HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT THE FINAL BILL? WILL WE GET A
SCORE FROM THE CBO BEFORE A FINAL VOTE? WILL THERE BE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR
MOTIONS AND AMENDMENTS? WILL WE CONVENE AGAIN? THOSE ARE LEGITIMATE
QUESTIONS AND THE GREATEST DELIVERED A BODY IN THE WORLD.
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00:52:53
THANK YOU, SENATOR. SO THE RULES ARE THAT WHEN IT IS REPORTED, MEMBERS AS WELL
AS THE PUBLIC WILL HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO EXAMINE IT, REVIEW IT, AND DELIVER ON IT
THE FORT GOES TO THE HOUSE OR THE SENATE FOR A VOTE.
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00:53:14
SEN. MENENDEZ
WILL IT HAVE A CBO SCORE? WE ARE GETTING CRITICIZED FOR MAKING COMMENTS ABOUT
BILLS THAT DO NOT EXIST. WE KNOW IT THE SENATE PASSED. WE NOTE THE HOUSE PASSED.
WE DO NOT KNOW AT THIS --
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00:53:26
INC. YOU, SENATOR. ESTHER BISHOP, YOU ARE RECOGNIZED FOR YOUR OPENING STATEMENT.
00:53:31
DO I HAVE TO BEGIN DEMAGOGIC OR CAN I JUST SPEAK?

00:53:38
PROBABLY BOTH.
00:53:45
MR. BISHOP
I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR BENDING LIGHT YEARS ON THIS. WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO FOCUS
ON TITLE II. FOR RON, IT IS NOT AS GOOD AS THE WYDEN BILL, BUT IT IS CLOSE TO IT. SO
THANK YOU. TITLE II OF THIS BILL FULFILLS THE BUDGET COMMITTEE'S INSTRUCTIONS TO
PROVIDE REVENUE, AS WELL AS TO PROVIDE SECURITY AND INDEPENDENCE AT THE SAME
TIME. THE TITLE TO AREA THAT WAS ESTABLISHED, THE SPECIAL PURPOSE IS CONSISTENT
WITH WHAT WE ARE DOING ENTITLED TO. IT HAS THE SUPPORT OF THE ALASKAN
DELEGATION. NOT MANY, BUT THEY ARE UNITED. IT HAS THE SUPPORT OF THE ALASKAN
PEOPLE, AS WELL AS THE NATIVE PEOPLES. THEY RECOGNIZE THAT THIS AREA WILL PROVIDE
WELL-PAYING JOBS FOR MIDDLE-CLASS FAMILIES, AS WELL AS PRODUCE A SOURCE OF
ENERGY FOR THE REST OF US. LET US FACE IT, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT 200 ACRES IN THE 19
MILLION ACRE RESERVE. -- 200,000 ACRES IN A 19 MILLION ACRE RESERVE.
PROENVIRONMENT, PROGROWTH, PRO-ENERGY LEGISLATION WILL PRODUCE INCREASES IN
ENERGY WHILE AT THE SAME TIME HELPING TO CUT TAXES FOR AVERAGE MIDDLE INCOME
AMERICAN FAMILIES. THAT IS WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO. I AM PROUD OF THAT SECTION,
AND I APPRECIATE ALL OF THE HARD WORK. I YIELD BACK.
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00:55:15
SENATOR BTHUNE, YOU ARE RECOGNIZED.

00:55:28
SEN. THUNE
I WANT TO THANK COUNTERPARTS FOR GETTING US WHERE WE ARE TODAY. LET ME JUST SAY
WITH RESPECT TO MY COLLEAGUES IN THE SENATE WHO HAVE PROTESTED THE PROCESS --
PROTESTED THE PROCESS, IN THE SENATE I GOT ON THE COMMITTEE IN 2011. WAYS AND
MEANS IS WHERE DO BIG THINGS LIKE TAX REFORM. I CAME ON IN 2011. SINCE THEN, WE
HAVE HAD NO FEWER THAN 70 HEARINGS ON TAX REFORM. IN 2015 UNDER CHAIRMAN
HATCH'S LEADERSHIP, WE HAD FIVE WORKING GROUPS. THERE WERE BIPARTISAN. THE
PRODUCT OF THE WORKING GROUP I LED ALONG WITH SENATOR CARDIN RESULTED IN
RECOMMENDATIONS FOR TAX REFORM. A LOT OF THESE ARE DEMOCRATIC AND REPUBLICAN
IDEAS, MUCH OF WHICH IS INCLUDED IN THE SUBSTANCE OF THIS BILL. IT IS BIPARTISAN
ALTHOUGH OUR COLLEAGUES WOULD LIKE TO ARGUE THE PROCESS WAS NOT. WE MARKED
IT OUT IN SENATE FINANCE COMMITTEE. WE SPENT 23 HOURS DOING IT. THE HOUSE AND
WAYS -- THE HOUSE WAYS AND MEANS COMMITTEE HAD A MARKET AS WELL. THERE WERE 63
DEMOCRAT AMENDMENTS THAT WERE VOTED ON DURING THE MARKET. SO ANYBODY THAT
SUGGESTS THAT THIS IS NOT A NORMAL, REGULAR ORDER PROCESS IS JUST MISSING THE
FACTS. THE OTHER THING I WANT TO POINT OUT BECAUSE IT IS BEEN MENTIONED IS, WHO
WILL BENEFIT FROM THIS? WE CAME AT THIS WITH A COUPLE OF OBJECTIVES, ONE OF WHICH
WAS TO BRING SUBSTANTIAL TAX RELIEF TO MIDDLE INCOME FAMILIES. YOU CAN ARGUE
ABOUT DISTRIBUTION TABLES, BUT I THINK THEY REFLECT THAT. BUT THERE ARE BASIC,
OBJECTIVE FACTS THAT ARE UNDENIABLE. ONE OF WHICH IS, THAT THIS PROPOSAL DOUBLES
THE STANDARD DEDUCTION. IT ALSO DOUBLES THE CHILD TAX CREDIT. IT ALSO LOWERS
RATES. IF YOU LOOK AT ITS IMPACT ON A TYPICAL FAMILY IN SOUTH DAKOTA --LET US TAKE A
FAMILY WITH A COMBINED INCOME OF $73,000 PER YEAR, THEY WOULD GET A $2200 TAX CUT,
WHICH REPRESENTS A 60% REDUCTION OF WHAT THEY ARE PAYING UNDER CURRENT LAW.
ONE OF MY COLLEAGUES OVER HERE ON THE HOUSE SIDE MENTIONED SOMETHING ABOUT
PINOCCHIO'S EARLY ON. THERE WERE A NUMBER OF DEMOCRAT COLLEAGUES WHO GOT UP
EARLIER THIS YEAR AND ATTACKED THE SENATE BILL. THIS IS WHAT THE WASHINGTON POST
FACT CHECKERS SET ABOUT THEIR COMMENTS. "IN THEIR HASTE TO CONDEMN THE GOP TAX
PLAN, DEMOCRATS HAVE SPREAD THE FALSE CLAIM THAT FAMILIES MAKING LESS THAN
86,000 DOLLARS ON AVERAGE WILL HAVE A TAX HIKE. ACTUALLY, IT IS THE OPPOSITE. " THE
WASHINGTON POST GAVE THAT STATEMENT FOR THE NOTE HE IS.
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00:58:33
CHAIRMAN KASS IS RECOGNIZED.

00:58:34
WOULD BE MORE INSTRUCTIVE TO DO THE FINAL REPORTS ON TWITTER, WHERE IT IS

SPILLING OUT FROM VARIOUS SOURCES ON K STREET? THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN. HERE
WE ARE, TWO WEEKS BEFORE CHRISTMAS. THE REPUBLICAN TAX BILL IS ONE THAT
EBENEZER SCROOGE WOULD LOVE. IT IS A BIG BAH-HUMBUG FOR OUR COMMUNITIES BACK
HOME. IT SHOWERS BIG CORPORATIONS AND THE SUPER RICH WITH HUGE TAX CUTS, AND
NEW LOOPHOLES. IT IS UNFAIR, AND IT WILL SQUEEZE MIDDLE-CLASS FAMILIES. IT WILL ADD
$2.3 TRILLION TO THE NATIONAL DEBT. IT WILL CROWD OUT OUR ABILITY TO INVEST IN
MODERN INFRASTRUCTURE, MEDICAL RESEARCH, EDUCATION, NATIONAL SECURITY AND
MORE. ANY CRUMBS THROWN TO WORKING FAMILIES AND RETIREES ARE LIKELY TO BE
EATEN UP BY THE GOP PLAN ASKING TO RELY ON MEDICARE AND MEDICAID TO PAY MORE.
SO JUST LIKE CHARLES DICKENS CHRISTMAS CAROL, I'M SURE MY COLLEAGUES ARE BEING
HAUNTED BY THE COASTS -- THE GHOSTS OF CHRISTMAS PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE.
GHOST OF CHRISTMAS PAST REMINDS EBENEZER SCROOGE THAT HE HAD BEEN MORE IN
LOVE WITH MONEY THAN ANYTHING ELSE. THAT IS WHAT REPUBLICANS WANT -- TWO OF
REWARD PRIVILEGE. GREED DOES NOT MAKE AMERICA GREAT. OPPORTUNITY MAKES IT
GREAT. SWEAT. HARD WORK. REPUBLICANS YANKED OUT THE LADDERS OF OPPORTUNITY
FOR TEACHERS, FOR GRADUATE STUDENTS, FAMILIES WITH STUDENT LOANS. RECALL THE
GHOST OF CHRISTMAS PRESENT. HE INFORMED SCROOGE THAT TINY TIM WOULD DIE SOON,
UNLESS SCROOGE CHANGED HIS WAYS. REPUBLICANS TAKE AIM AT TINY TIM. AND MILLIONS
OF OTHER FAMILIES ACROSS AMERICA SUFFER BY THE RAISING OF HEALTH CARE COSTS ON
MILLIONS MORE. AMERICANS WITH PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS WILL BE PRICED OUT OF THE
MARKET BECAUSE YOU ARE DESTROYING THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT HEALTH CARE POOL.
OVER 1.7 MILLION FLORIDIANS RIGHT NOW DEPEND UPON THE AFFORDABLE HEALTH CARE
ACT FOR THEIR COVERAGE. IF THAT IS NOT ENOUGH, REPUBLICANS WANT TO ELIMINATE THE
MEDICAL DISPENSE -- MEDICAL EXPENSE DEDUCTION. THIS INVOLVES CHILDREN WITH
SPECIAL NEEDS, FAMILIES THAT HAVE A MEMBER WITHOUT TIMERS OR CANCER, OR SPOUSES
IN OF NURSING CENTER. YOU SHOULD ALSO FEAR THE GHOST OF CHRISTMAS YET TO COME.
REPUBLICANS HAVE ADDED $2.3 TRILLION TO THE NATIONAL DEBT. IT IS A TICKING TIME
BOMB. BUT SPEAKER RYAN SAYS, NO WORRIES. WORKING TO CUT MEDICARE AND MEDICAID
TO MAKE UP THE DIFFERENCE. IT IS UNFAIR.
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01:01:59
MS. STAPP AND NOW, YOU ARE RECOGNIZED. -- STABENOW.

01:02:08
WE NEED PROTECTION FOR OUR FARMERS AND SMALL BUSINESSES. WE NEED TO PUT MORE
MONEY IN THE POCKETS OF MIDDLE-CLASS FAMILIES. IF THAT WERE THE LEGISLATION IN
FRONT OF US OR WHATEVER WILL BE THERE, I WOULD BE HAPPY TO SUPPORT IT. HOWEVER,
THAT IS NOT WHAT THIS LEGISLATION DOES, BUT INSTEAD IT PROVIDES HUGE TAX
GIVEAWAYS TO THE WEALTHIEST 1%. IT PROMISES MICHIGAN FAMILIES THE SAME OLD
TRICKLE DOWN ECONOMICS.
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01:02:48
SEN. STABENOW
IT SOMEHOW NEVER TRICKLES DOWN TO THEM IN THEIR PAYCHECKS. UNDER THE SENATE
BILL, PARENTS MAKING $500,000 A YEAR WILL ENJOY A NEW CHILD TAX CREDIT FOR THEIR
TWO CHILDREN. MEANWHILE, THE WORKING-CLASS PARENTS OF 10 MILLION CHILDREN
WILL RECEIVE NOTHING UNDER THE HOUSE PROPOSAL. $75 OR LESS UNDER THE SENATE
PROPOSAL. WE DO NOT KNOW ABOUT THE FINAL HERE. THAT IS NOT EVEN ENOUGH TO BUY A
WEEK'S WORTH OF GROCERIES. MIDDLE-CLASS AMERICANS WILL GET A TAX INCREASE. AN
INCREASE. HAPPY. HERE IS YOUR TAX BILL. MY FRIENDS ACROSS THE AISLE -- A FEW OF
THEM -- TOLD THE TRUTH. "FUNDAMENTALLY, THE BILL HAS BEEN MISLABELED FROM A
TRUTH IN ADVERTISING STANDPOINT. IT IS A CORPORATE TRACK TAX REDUCTION." HE
EXPRESSED CONCERN ABOUT INNUENDO AND WHAT THAT MIGHT MEAN. SO IT WAS LABELED
A MIDDLE-CLASS TAX CUT. LABELING SOMETHING A MIDDLE-CLASS TAX CUT DOES NOT
MAKE IT SO. THEN IN MICHIGAN DESERVE BETTER. YOU DESERVE TAX RELIEF. THEY
DESERVE TO BE TOLD THE TRUTH, AND HERE IT IS. SINCE 1979, TOP 1% WAGES HAVE GROWN
BY 138%. MEANWHILE, THE VAST MAJORITY OF WORKERS HAVE SEEN THEIR WAGES
STAGNATE. AND REPUBLICAN COLLEAGUES ON THE FLOOR -- AND I WANT TO SHOW A CHART
USED OVER AND OVER AGAIN IN THE FLOOR ON THE SENATE. --SHOWS THAT BY GIVING THE
LARGEST CORPORATIONS BIG TAX GETAWAYS, THE GET AT LEAST $4000 IN HIGHER WAGES.
WE SAW THAT ON THE FLOOR. MR. CHAIRMAN, THE PROOF IS IN YOUR PAYCHECK. THAT IS
WHAT WE SAY IN MICHIGAN. IF MY REPUBLICAN COLLEAGUES ARE SERIOUS ABOUT PUTTING
MONEY IN THE POCKETS OF THE MIDDLE CLASS, WRITE IT INTO THE BILL. KEEP THE PROMISE
THAT YOU ARE MAKING BY WRITING IT INTO THE BILL SO THAT THIS DOES NOT TAKE EFFECT
UNLESS PEOPLE GET AT LEAST $4000 IN INCREASED WAGES.
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01:05:02
THE GENTLELADY'S TIME IS EXPIRED. REPRESENTATIVE YOUNG, GENTLELADY'S TIME IS

EXPIRED. THERE WILL BE ORDER. THE YOUNG LADIES TIME IS EXPIRED. THANK YOU,
SENATOR. THANK YOU SO MUCH. MEMBERS WILL BE RESPECTFUL OF EACH OTHER.
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01:05:41
REP. YOUNG
I WILL TELL YOU ONE THING ABOUT THIS. I AM PLEASED TO BACK UP LISA MURKOWSKI'S
POSITION ON THE ENERGY PART. THIS IS CRUCIALLY IMPORTANT TO THE NATION. IT IS
VITALLY IMPORTANT, AND I REMEMBER WHEN WE HAD A GROUP OF SENATORS WITH GOOD
ENVIRONMENTAL MEMBERS THAT VOTED FOR THIS WHEN WE CREATED THIS BILL. THE
AREAS WERE OPEN. BOTH SIDES AGREED THAT IT WAS NEVER TO BE A WILDERNESS AREA. I
CONSTANTLY HEAR THIS NONSENSE FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE AISLE. IT TRIES ME
CRAZY, BECAUSE YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE HISTORY. AS THE DEAN OF THE HOUSE, I
KNOW WHY THINGS WERE DONE AND WHY THEY STILL CAN BE DONE. MOST OF YOU NEVER
PARTICIPATED AT ALL BECAUSE YOU NEVER PARTICIPATED WHEN YOU ARE ASKED, HOUSE
AND SENATE SIDE. THAT IS NOT GOOD LEGISLATION. YOU ARE PLAYING TO THE CAMERAS.
THANK GOD, AND MR. CHAIRMAN I ASK FOR UNANIMOUS CONSENT THAT MY STATEMENT BE
ENTERED INTO RECORD. THANK GOD I AM WEARING MY COWBOY BOOTS TODAY. THEY
WEAR IT TO KEEP THEIR CAN'T CLEAN FROM THE HORSEMEN NEWER THAT COMES FROM
PEOPLE WHO DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. YOU CAN HAVE ALL OF THE
DIFFERENCE OF OPINION YOU WANT ABOUT THIS. YOU OUGHT TO BE HAPPIER THAN THE
DEVIL. YOU OUGHT TO BE HAPPY. YOU CAN SAY IT LOOK WITH REPUBLICANS DID. LOOK
WHAT THEY DID. THEY HURT YOU. THEY HURT YOUR ECONOMY. IF THAT IS RIGHT, AND YOU
CAN BRAG ABOUT IT. BUT WE HAVE TO BE RIGHT. IF THIS COUNTRY COMES BACK AS IT
SHOULD, GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO ADVANCE, WE CAN HAVE REAL JOBS AND NOT
GOVERNMENT JOBS. WE CAN DO IT WITH FREEDOM. THAT IS WHAT WE NEED. THIS BILL DOES
IT. I WANT TO THANK THE CONFEREES FOR OUR HELP. IF IT DOES NOT WORK, BLAME US. BUT
IF IT DOES WORK, THANK GOD WE DID A GREAT JOB. I YIELD BACK.
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01:07:55
SEN. PORTMAN: .
01:08:06
PORTMAN SEN.
LOOK. I THINK PEOPLE WILL AGREE THAT FOR YEARS WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT DOING
WHAT IS IN THIS BILL. WE TALKED ABOUT MIDDLE-CLASS TAX CUTS, AND REALLY FOR THE
PAST DECADE THERE HAS NOT BEEN AN INCREASE IN WAGES BUT RATHER AN INCREASE IN
EXPENSES. FOR MOST FAMILIES, THE BIGGEST EXPENSE IS HEALTH CARE. THAT SQUEEZE
ISRAEL. TAX CUTS ARE APPROPRIATE. THAT IS IN THIS BILL, AND WE WILL HEAR FROM TOM
BARTHHOLD. THAT ISRAEL. IF YOU ARE A FAMILY LIVING IN OHIO, THE AVERAGE TAX CUT
FOR A FAMILY LIVING IN OHIO IS $2375. THAT IS THE PROOF IN THE PUDDING. SOMEONE
EARLIER SAID THAT IS NOT ENOUGH. WHERE LIVING PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK. BIG DEAL. A
LOT OF OUR CONSTITUENTS ARE. WE'VE TALKED ABOUT A MORE COMPETITIVE TAX CODE
THAT ALLOWS OUR WORKERS TO COMPETE AROUND THE WORLD. IN WASHINGTON DC, WE
HAVE SAID, YOU KNOW WHAT, IF YOU ARE AN AMERICAN WORKER YOU HAVE TO WORK WITH
ONE ARM TIED BEHIND YOUR BACK. A RECENT STUDY SHOWED 4700 AMERICAN COMPANIES
HAVE BECOME FOREIGN COMPANIES IN THE PAST 14 YEARS BECAUSE OF OUR TAX CODE. SET
A COMPETITIVE RATE. SO I KNOW THERE ARE CONCERNS ABOUT BASE EROSION BEING
TOUGH ENOUGH. THE STATUS QUO IS NOT WORKING. WE ARE LOSING JOBS AND INVESTMENT
EVERY DAY OVERSEAS. AMERICAN WORKERS ARE BEARING THE BRUNT OF THAT. THE
STATISTICS ARE THERE. IN THE LAST YEAR, THREE TIMES AS MANY COMPANIES WERE TAKEN
OVER BY FOREIGN COMPANIES. SO IT IS HAPPENING. IT IS HAPPENING IN YOUR DISTRICT. IT IS
HAPPENING IN YOUR STATE. SOME OF YOU DO NOT LIKE TO TALK ABOUT IT. DO YOU KNOW
THEY DO WHEN THEY LEAVE? THEY TAKE THEIR JOBS AND INVESTMENT WITH THEM. WE DID
A BIPARTISAN STUDY THAT SHOWED EXAMPLE AFTER EXAMPLE WHERE COMPANIES CHOSE
TO INVERT, GO OVERSEAS, AND TAKE JOBS AND INVESTMENT WITH THEM. THE BIGGEST
PROBLEM IS ACQUIRING BY FOREIGN COMPANIES. THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING. THAT IS
WHAT THIS TAX REFORM IS INTENDED TO REVERSE. I STRONGLY BELIEVE IT WILL. WE HAD A
BIPARTISAN WORKING GROUP 2.5 YEARS AGO. SO THE NOTION THAT WE HAVE NOT LOOKED
AT TAX REFORM, YOU KNOW, I KNOW YOU HAVE DONE THIS IN WAYS AND MEANS.
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01:11:00
GENTLEMAN'S TIME IS EXPIRED.

01:11:04
SEN. PORTMAN
CHUCK SCHUMER AND I WORKED ON IT.

01:11:09
SENATOR MENENDEZ. YOU ARE RECOGNIZE.

01:11:15
SEN. MENENDEZ
I HAD THE PRIVILEGE OF SERVING WITH MY COLLEGE HERE. BUT WHEN YOU CREATE THE
MANURE, YOU HAVE TO WALK IN IT. NEW JERSEY FAMILIES KNOW THIS IS A BIG, FAT WET
KISS TO CORPORATIONS. REFERRING TO THE BILL AS WE KNOW IT, 96% OF FAMILIES MAKING
UNDER $10,000 PER YEAR IN 2019, IT WILL EITHER RAISE TAXES OR KEEP IN THE SAME. BUT IN
CONTRAST, IT WILL KEEP A $500 TAX CUT ON 80% OF THOSE WHO MAKE OVER $1 MILLION PER
YEAR. THE SAME PERSON WORKING IN A LOW-PAYING JOB EARNING LESS THAN $10,000 PER
YEAR, THEY MAY SEE THEIR TAXES GO UP OR STAY THE SAME. BUT FOR THE FORTUNATE FEW
MAKING OVER $1 MILLION PER YEAR, OVER 80% OF THEM WILL SEE A TAX CUT. LOOK AT THE
STATE AND LOCAL TAX DEDUCTIONS, WHICH AFFECTS 1.8 MILLION NEW JERSEYANS. DO THE
HOUSE AND SENATE BILLS PRESERVED FOR CORPORATIONS? YES. DO THEY PRESERVE STATE
AND LOCAL TAXES FOR FAMILIES? NO. SO TO ME, THIS PERFECTLY ENCAPSULATES THE WAR
SENSES THAT THIS -- THE WARPED SENSES THAT THESE BILL SUPPORT. WE ARE TRYING TO
DECIDE BETWEEN CORPORATIONS LOSING THE SALT DEDUCTION. I DO NOT SEE THAT IS PRO-
GROWTH. ONLY IN WASHINGTON DOES EXPIRING VANISHING INDIVIDUAL LIMITED TAX CUTS
TO FUND PERMANENT -- PERMANENT -- TAX CUTS IS VIEWED AS HELPING THE MIDDLE
CLASS. RAISING THE DEBT BY $1.5 TRILLION TO $2.5 TRILLION. IT WILL BE USED TO GO AFTER
PROGRAMS FOR THE MIDDLE CLASS. IF THEY HAVE THEIR PARENTS IN A NURSING HOME, OR
TAKE CARE OF SENIORS, OR HAVE DISABLED AND THEIR FAMILIES. WE SEE THE SPEAKER HAS
ALREADY SAID THAT IS THEIR TOP PRIORITY NEXT YEAR. THAT, IN MY MIND, IS NOT A PRO-
GROWTH STRATEGY. FOR ALL OF MY FRIENDS I HAVE LISTENED TO BE CHICKENPOX, --
CHICKENHAWKS?
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01:14:10
MR. UPTON, YOU ARE RECOGNIZED.

01:14:16
DOES EVERYONE IN HERE NOTE THAT AND I HEARD COUNTLESS STORIES FROM FOLKS
ACROSS MICHIGAN IMPACTED BY A TAX CODE THAT'S OUTDATED, UNWIELDY, TOO OFTEN
REWARDS THOSE AT THE TOP AT THE COST OF REGULAR FOLKS. AND IT'S BECOME
ABUNDANTLY CLEAR THE STATUS QUO IS A MAJOR DRAG ON OUR ECONOMY AND ON
MICHIGAN FAMILIES STRUGGLING TO GET BY. BUT ALSO NOTE THAT THE LARGEST
EMPLOYER IN ONE OF MY COUNTIES MOVED ACROSS THE OCEAN TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF
THEIR LOWER CORPORATE RATES. THIS BILL WILL CHANGE THAT. THE TAX CUTS AND JOBS
ACT WILL MAKE OUR TAX CODE SIMPLER, FAIRER, EASIER TO UNDERSTAND, AND I SUPPORT
EFFORTS TO ADVANCE PRO GROWTH, PRO AMERICAN TAX REFORM AND RELIEF. AND
HOPEFULLY THE DAYS OF ANEMIC, 1% REAL GROWTH ARE OVER. ALSO I WANT TO MAKE
NOTE OF MY STRONG SUPPORT TO INCLUDE MEDICAL DEDUCTIONS AS PART OF THE TAX
CODE. I THINK THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT. NOW, LET'S -- LET ME TURN TO THE SENATE'S OIL
AND GAS PROVISIONS IN TITLE 2. I SUPPORT THE ANWAR PROVISIONS, THOUGH I WISH THAT
THEY COULD HAVE BEEN DRAFTED IN A WAY THAT WOULD HAVE PRESERVED THE FULL $1.1
BILLION THAT EXPECTED TO BE GENERATED FROM LEASE SALES. I ALSO SUPPORT LIFTING
THE CAPS ON OFFSHORE OIL REVENUE SHARING FOR GULF STATES, AS LONG AS THEY'RE
PAID FOR RESPONSIBLY. I'M NOT OPPOSED TO USING SPRO AS A PAY-FOR, BUT ANY NEW
DRAWDOWNS HAVE TO BE CAREFULLY CONSIDERED, IN LIGHT OF OUR EXISTING
OBLIGATIONS. WE'RE ALREADY USING SPRO TO PAY FOR THE LAST BUDGET DEAL. HIGHWAYS
AND 21ST CENTURY CURES SIGNED BY PRESIDENT OBAMA A YEAR AGO TODAY. UNDER MY
CHAIRMANSHIP OF THE ENERGY AND COMMERCE COMMITTEE, CONGRESS AUTHORIZED A
SERIES OF DRAWDOWNS THAT WILL REDUCE SPRO'S INVENTORY FROM ALMOST 700 MILLION
BARRELS TO CLOSE TO 500 MILLION BARRELS OVER THE NEXT TEN YEARS, PROVIDED THAT
THE SALES DO NOT LIMIT THE ABILITY OF THE SPRO TO PREVENT OR REDUCE THE ADVERSE
IMPACT OF AN ENERGY SUPPLY SHORTAGE. AND BEFORE I AUTHORIZE THOSE DRAWDOWNS, I
WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY COMPLETED A LONG-RANGE
STRATEGIC REVIEW, AND THAT WE ARE SIMULTANEOUSLY INVESTING IN MODERNIZATION
PROGRAMS TO CLEAR THE MAINTENANCE BACKLOG AND ENSURE THAT SPRO CAN MEET ITS
MISSION OBJECTIVES. MR. CHAIRMAN WITH THOSE CONCERNS NOTED, I'LL CLOSE BY
SAYING, IN MY HOME STATE OF MICHIGAN, WE'RE KNOWN FOR OUR BLUE COLLAR WORK
ETHIC. WE ALL STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT OUR TAX CODE OUGHT TO BE FAIR AND REWARDS
HARD WORK AND PLAYING BY THE RULES. AND WITH THIS EFFORT, WILL DELIVER A
MODERNIZED 21ST CENTURY TAX CODE THAT IS BUILT SPECIFICALLY FOR ECONOMIC
GROWTH, MICHIGAN MIDDLE CLASS FAMILIES AND PUTTING AMERICA'S INTERESTS FIRST.
WORKING TOGETHER, WE CAN AND WILL PROVIDE TAX REFORM AND RELIEF FOR ALL
AMERICANS. IT'S ABOUT TIME. AND I YIELD BACK.
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01:17:06
THE GENTLEMAN YIELDS BACK. SENATOR SCOTT, YOU'RE RECOGNIZED FOR AN OPENING
STATEMENT.
01:17:10
THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN. MILLIONS OF AMERICANS FEEL AS IF WASHINGTON ISN'T
LISTENING. SO MANY OF OUR AMERICAN FRIENDS, FAMILY MEMBERS, FEEL LIKE THEY'RE
INVISIBLE. THIS TAX REFORM PROCESS IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR US TO SAY TO THEM, WE SEE
YOU. WE HEAR YOU. AS YOU KNOW, MR. CHAIRMAN, YOU AND I BOTH GREW UP IN SINGLE-
PARENT HOUSEHOLDS. MY MOM WORKED AS A NURSE'S AIDE WHICH MEANS SHE FLIPPED
PATIENTS, TURNED PATIENTS, AND CLEANED BED PANS. SOMETIMES 16 HOURS A DAY. A FEW
DAYS A WEEK. AND THEN EIGHT HOURS A DAY A COUPLE DAYS A WEEK. MR. CHAIRMAN,
WHEN I THINK ABOUT TAX REFORM AS A BOTTOM-UP EXERCISE, NOT A TOP-DOWN EXERCISE
FOR ME. I THINK ABOUT THE FACT, MR. CHAIRMAN THAT TODAY IN AMERICA, THE AVERAGE
SINGLE MOM MAKES AROUND $41,000 A YEAR. AND WHEN WE TALK ABOUT TAX REFORM,
WITH THAT SINGLE MOM, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CUTTING HER TAX BURDEN BY 75%. WE'RE
TALKING ABOUT DELIVERING TO HER MORE THAN $1400 A YEAR. WHEN WE THINK ABOUT
OUR FRIENDS AND OUR FAMILY MEMBERS WHO ARE THE TYPICAL AMERICANS MAKING
AROUND $73,000 A YEAR, MR. CHAIRMAN, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A 60% CUT. $2200 LEFT IN
THEIR PAYCHECKS. SO THEY CAN MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT A MEAL OUT. ABOUT A MOVIE ON
THE WEEKENDS. ABOUT PLAYING IN ONE MORE SPORT A YEAR, BECAUSE THEY HAVE A
LITTLE MORE MARGIN IN THEIR PAYCHECKS TO MAKE THESE DECISIONS. PERHAPS FOLKS
WHO ARE FIGHTING FOR REPUBLICAN FORM OF TAX REFORM OR DEMOCRAT FORM OF TAX
REFORM, MAYBE ALL OF THIS SOUNDS GOOD FOR THE BASE. BUT FOR THE AVERAGE
AMERICAN AND THE AVERAGE PLACE WHO SIMPLY WANTS TO KNOW HOW CAN I KEEP MORE
OF MY HARD-EARNED MONEY, THAT'S THE QUESTION I WANT TO ANSWER. IT'S IN MAKING
SURE THAT OUR PROPOSALS DELIVERS TO THEM, AN INCREASE IN THEIR PAYCHECK THAT
REFLECTS THE FACT THAT WE HAVE CONFIDENCE IN THEIR ABILITY TO MAKE BETTER
DECISIONS FOR THEIR FAMILIES. MR. CHAIRMAN, THE THING THAT CHANGES MY ECONOMIC
LIFE WAS BECOMING A SMALL BUSINESS OWNER. AND I WILL TELL YOU THAT IN THE SIMILAR
FASHION, TODAY, THIS WEEK, A RECENT SURVEY SAID THAT 7,000 EMPLOYERS WOULD
INCREASE WAGES AND BENEFITS. ALMOST AS MANY SAID THAT THEY WOULD ALSO
INCREASE WAGES. I KNOW MY TIME IS RUNNING OUT. I DON'T WANT TO HEAR REGULAR
ORDER ON YOUR SIDE OR THEIR SIDE. I WILL SIMPLY SAY THAT AMERICA'S FUTURE IS
BRIGHTER.
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01:20:17
THE GENTLEMAN'S TIME HAS EXPIRED. THANK YOU. SENATOR'S CARPER, YOU'RE
RECOGNIZED FOR AN OPENING STATEMENT.
01:20:25
LET ME START OFF BY SAYING WHAT A JOY IT IS TO SERVE IN THE SENATE WITH TIM. HE IS A
GIFT, I THINK, FROM THE PEOPLE OF SOUTH CAROLINA TO OUR BODY OF THE UNITED STATES
SENATE. HE MENTIONED HIS MOM. ONE OF THE THINGS, AS I UNDERSTAND, A LEGISLATION
THAT CERTAINLY CAME OUT OF THE SENATE FINANCE COMMITTEE FOR FAMILIES MAKING
$30,000 A YEAR, THEY REALIZE THAT TAX REDUCTIONS THE FIRST COUPLE OF YEARS. BUT
NOT AFTER 2019. $40,000 A YEAR, THEY REALIZE TAX REDUCTIONS FOR SEVERAL YEARS
BEYOND THAT. BUT NOT FOREVER. AND SO I WOULD -- WOULD ASK US TO KEEP THAT IN
MIND. THIS IS MY FIRST CONFERENCE COMMITTEE IN QUITE A WHILE. MY SERVICE IN THE
HOUSE AND MY SERVICE IN THE SENATE WAS INTERRUPTED FOR EIGHT YEARS. I GOT TO BE
GOVERNOR OF DELAWARE. BUT I REMEMBER FINALLY MY FIRST CONFERENCE COMMITTEE,
AND WE -- I WAS ON THE BANKING COMMITTEE. AND WE MET, AND DEMOCRATS AND
REPUBLICANS IN THE HOUSE AND SENATE ACTUALLY WORKED TOGETHER TO CRAFT OUR
BILLS. AND THE AMENDMENT THAT -- THE BILL -- THE HOUSE BANKING COMMITTEE THAT WE
WERE CONFERENCING ON INCLUDED MY AMENDMENTS, OTHER AMENDMENTS, TOM RIDGE
AND OTHER PEOPLE LIKE THAT. AND WE ACTUALLY OFFERED DURING THE CONFERENCE
COMMITTEE BIPARTISAN AMENDMENTS TO CHANGE THE CONFERENCE REPORT. AND DID. IT
WAS A WONDERFUL EXERCISE. ONE I REMEMBER FINALLY TO THIS -- FONDLY TO THIS DAY.
AFTER THAT, I GOT TO GO -- BE GOVERNOR OF DELAWARE FOR A WILD. -- FOR A WHILE. AND
DURING THOSE EIGHT YEARS, WE -- AT EIGHT YEARS, WE CUT TAXES. BUT EVERY YEAR WE
CUT TAXES WE ALSO BALLARDANCED THE BUDGET AND PAID DOWN SOME OF OUR DEBT.
AND DURING THOSE EIGHT YEARS WE ACTUALLY ENDED UP WITH AAA CREDIT RATINGS FOR
THE FIRST TIME IN STATE HISTORY. AND MORE JOBS WERE CREATED IN THOSE EIGHT YEARS
THAN IN ANY EIGHT-YEAR PERIOD IN THE HISTORY OF THE STATE OF DELAWARE BEFORE OR
SINCE. I DIDN'T CREATE ONE OF THEM. BUT WHAT I DID AS GOVERNOR OF OUR STATE,
FOCUSED ON HOW TO CREATE A NURTURING ENVIRONMENT FOR JOB CREATION AND
PRESERVATION. THAT'S WHAT WE OUGHT TO BE DOING HERE IN THE HOUSE AND IN THE
SENATE. AND THAT INCLUDES INFRASTRUCTURE. NOT JUST ROADS, HIGHWAYS, BRIDGES.
PORTS, RAIL, AIRPORTS, BROADBAND, DEPLOYMENT. HOW DO WE USE MONEY TO ACTUALLY
LEVERAGE MORE INVESTMENTS IN R & D THAT CAN BE COMMERCIALIZED AND TURN IT INTO
JOB CREATION? HOW CAN WE USE MONEY TO CREATE MORE AFFORDABLE ENERGY,
WHETHER IT HAPPENS TO BE -- HAPPENS TO BE CARBON-FREE OR CARBON-LOW? THOSE ARE
THINGS WE FOCUS ON TO GOOD EFFECT. I'VE ASKED MY COLLEAGUES IN THE FINANCE
COMMITTEE AND ARE PROBABLY TIRED OF HEARING ME SAY THIS, MR. CHAIRMAN. I ALWAYS
ASK FOUR QUESTIONS WHEN PEOPLE APPROACH ME WITH IDEAS TO REFORM OUR TAX CODE.
NUMBER ONE, IS IT FAIR. IS IT FAIR? NUMBER TWO, DOES IT PROMOTE ECONOMIC GROWTH
AND JOB CREATION. NUMBER THREE, DOES IT MAKE THE TAX CODE LESS COMPLEX OR MORE
COMPLEX? NUMBER FOUR, WHAT DOES IT DO TO THE DEFICIT? AND FOR ME, THE THING
THAT'S MOST PAINFUL -- A FRIEND AND I USED TO -- HE AND I USED TO FOCUS WITH KASICH
AND OTHERS ON DEFICIT REDUCTION. WE WERE THE DEFICIT HAWKS IN THE HOUSE AT THE
TIME. AND THE THING I FIND MOST TROUBLING ABOUT THIS EFFORT, EIGHT YEARS INTO AN
ECONOMIC EXPANSION, WE'RE NOT PAYING DOWN DEBT, WHICH IS WHAT WE SHOULD BE.
WE'RE GOING TO INCREASE IT. AND FOR ME, RECOVERING STATE TREASURY -- FOR ME, THAT
IS ACTUALLY THE MOST TROUBLING THING OF ALL. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THIS WAY. IT
DOES NOT HAVE TO BE THIS WAY. AND IT IS PAINFUL FOR ME, AS A -- I'M A RECOVERING
GOVERNOR, BUT I'M ALSO A RECOVERING DEFICIT HAWK FROM DELAWARE. TO SEE IT WORK
OUT THIS WAY WHEN WE COULD HAVE DONE IT TOGETHER. OLD AFRICAN-AMERICAN
PROVERB. IF YOU WANT TO GO FAST, TRAVEL ALONE. IF YOU WANT TO GO FAR, TRAVEL
TOGETHER. AND IT'S JUST -- I THINK A SHAME THAT WE HAVE NOT TRAVELED TOGETHER
DOWN THIS PATH. THANK YOU.
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01:24:02
THANK YOU. REPRESENTATIVE SHIMKISS.

01:24:05
THANK YOU. WHAT AN HONOR TO BE HERE, ESPECIALLY WITH MY CLASSMATES. WE'VE GOT
CHAIRMAN BRADY, SENATOR THUNE AND SENATOR STABENOW. SO IT'S GREAT TO SERVE
WITH YOU. I ALSO WANT TO THANK THE SENATE FOR ADDING ANWAR AND THE SPRO. THOSE
POSITIONS ALLOW ME TO BE A CONFEREE. OTHERWISE I'D BE WATCHING LIKE MOST PEOPLE.
SO NOW WE ALL HAVE TO BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR OUR VOTERS. AND HAVE ALWAYS PUSHED
FOR AND PROMOTED A FAIR, FLATTER, SIMPLER TAX CODE, ESPECIALLY FOR THE
INDIVIDUALS. IN MY DISTRICT, 80% CURRENTLY FILE WITHOUT ITEMIZING. UNDER THE
HOUSE BILL, 90% WILL NOT ITEMIZE. I'M HOPING I CAN FINALLY SEND THESE TO MY
CONSTITUENTS INSTEAD OF CARRYING THIS FOR THEM TO FILE THEIR TAX RETURN ON. ON
THE CORPORATE SIDE, LET'S LOWER THE RATE AND LET'S REDUCE THE SPECIAL INTEREST
LOOPHOLES, AND CREATE JOBS. IT'S AS SIMPLE AS THAT AND THAT'S WHAT I CARRY BACK TO
MY DISTRICT. ANWAR IS THE SIZE -- IS A FLAT, COASTAL PLANE COASTAL PLAIN THE SIZE OF
SOUTH CAROLINA. IF AND WHEN THE DRILLING BEGINS, THE FOOTPRINT WILL BE THE SIZE
OF A FOOTBALL FIELD. THANK YOU, ALASKANS FOR THAT. AND THE BEST STRATEGIC
PETROLEUM RESERVE OUR NATION HAS IS OUR ABILITY TO EXPLORE, DISCOVER AND
RECOVER. WHICH IS HAPPENING EVERY DAY. SO SELLING SOME SPRO IS NOT A BIG DEAL FOR
ME. LET ME FINISH WITH THIS, THANKING CHAIRMAN BRADY AND YOUR STAFF FOR THEIR
HARD WORK. I GOT A RESPONSE FROM ONE OF MY CONSTITUENTS WHO IS A SELF-IDENTIFIED
SKEPTIC. RESPONDING TO MY NEWSLETTER. AND HE SAID, "I DID THE MATH ON MY TAXES AS
A RETIRED POLICE OFFICER ON A PENSION, AND WORKING PART-TIME. AND MY WIFE
WORKING PART-TIME. ESTIMATING A GROSS INCOME OF $76,000, MARRIED, FILING JOINTLY,
UNDER CURRENT LAW, WE WOULD PAY $6,502. UNDER THE PROPOSED CHANGES, OUR TAX
LIABILITY DROPS TO $5,592, SAVING US $910." I'M FROM A PRETTY POOR DISTRICT BUT I ALSO
HAVE SOME SUCCESSFUL PEOPLE. I ALSO SPOKE TO ANOTHER CONSTITUENT WHO HAS OVER
$100 MILLION SITTING OVERSEAS, JUST WAITING TO BE RETURNED TO ILLINOIS TO CREATE
JOBS AND PUT PEOPLE BACK TO WORK. SO I APPRECIATE THE WORK WE'VE DONE AND LOOK
FORWARD TO FINISHING THE CONFERENCE AND GETTING THESE THINGS ON THE FLOOR. I
YIELD BACK THE BALANCE OF MY TIME.
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01:26:46
THE GENTLEMAN YIELDS BACK. SENATOR TOOMEY, YOU'RE RECOGNIZED FOR AN OPENING
STATEMENT.
01:26:52
THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR. CHAIRMAN. YOU KNOW, I THINK PEOPLE VIEWING AND
LISTENING TO THIS DEBATE MIGHT REALLY WONDER, WHICH VERSION OF THIS TAX CUT AND
REFORM BILL SHOULD THEY BELIEVE? IS IT THE TAX INCREASE ON MIDDLE AND LOWER
INCOME FAMILIES AS SOME OF OUR DEMOCRATIC COLLEAGUES HAVE CHARACTERIZED IT,
OR IS IT THE TAX CUT THAT MY REPUBLICAN COLLEAGUES AND I HAVE DESCRIBED IT AS. SO
LET ME JUST SUGGEST THAT ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. THERE'S A RELATIVELY
SIMPLE WAY TO GET TO THE TRUTH OF THIS. THE FIRST IS WE'RE JUST A FEW WEEKS AWAY
FROM HOPEFULLY HAVING THIS IN LAW. AND WHEN THAT HAPPENS, TAKE A LOOK AT YOUR
PAYCHECK. WITHHOLDING IS GOING TO GO DOWN. AND YOUR TAKE-HOME PAY IS GOING TO
GO UP. SO THE PROOF IS GOING TO BE IN THE PUDDING, AS I SAY, VERY, VERY SOON. THERE'S
ANOTHER WAY WE COULD VIEW THIS DEBATE. AND FOR OUR HOUSE MEMBERS WHO WERE
NOT PRESENT AT THE SENATE VOTE ARAMA ON OUR BILL, LET ME SHARE A LITTLE BIT OF
HISTORY. THE SAME -- WE WERE HEARING THE SAME RHETORIC, THAT THIS IS A TERRIBLE,
AWFUL, TAX INCREASE ON LOW AND MIDDLE-INCOME FAMILIES. AND THEN ONE OF OUR
DEMOCRATIC SENATORS OFFERED AN AMENDMENT TO TAKE WHAT WE DID, OUR TAX CUTS
ON LOW AND MIDDLE-INCOME FAMILIES AND MAKE IT PERMANENT. NOW, IF THIS IS A BIG
TAX INCREASE -- OF COURSE, THEY WOULD ALL VOTE NO, RIGHT? IN FACT, EVERY SINGLE
DEMOCRATIC SENATOR VOTED IN FAVOR OF OUR LEGISLATION, OUR SUBSTANTIVE TAX CUTS
FOR LOW AND MIDDLE-INCOME FAMILIES WHEN THEY HAD TO GO ON RECORD, THEY WENT
ON RECORD ENDORSING WHAT WE DID. AND, IN FACT, URGING US TO MAKE IT PERMANENT.
WHICH I HOPE WE'LL BE ABLE TO DO. SO I WOULD SUGGEST THAT ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER
THAN WORDS. LET ME ALSO TALK ABOUT THE GROWTH. WE'VE GOT A MODEST NET TAX CUT.
IT'S ON THE ORDER OF 2% OF PROJECTED REVENUE OVER THE NEXT TEN YEARS. BUT THAT'S
A MISLEADING WAY TO THINK ABOUT IT. IT'S REALLY A VERY DRAMATIC TAX REFORM. IT'S A
RESTRUCTURING OF OUR TAX INCENTIVES THAT IS GOING TO ENCOURAGE A HUGE INCREASE
IN INVESTED CAPITAL. INVESTED CAPITAL, WHAT THAT MEANS IS BUSINESS PUTTING MONEY
TO WORK, BUYING EQUIPMENT, BUYING VEHICLES, BUYING MACHINERY, BUYING THE KINDS
OF TOOLS THAT ALLOW THEM TO GROW THE PRODUCTIVE CAPACITY OF THEIR BUSINESS.
AND ALL OF THOSE THINGS REQUIRE WORKERS TO BUILD AND REQUIRE WORKERS TO
OPERATE. THAT'S WHY THIS IS GOING TO PUT INCREASED DEMAND ON WAGES. AND WHEN
YOU DO THAT AT A TIME WHEN UNEMPLOYMENT IS SOMETHING ON THE ORDER OF 4%, YOU
NECESSARILY PUT UPWARD PRESSURE ON WAGES, BRING PEOPLE BACK INTO THE WORK
FORCE, AND WHAT WE ARE GOING TO DO WITH THIS BILL IS WE ARE GOING TO MAKE SURE IT
IS GOING TO HAPPEN, THAT LABOR IS GOING TO HAVE AN INCREASING SHARE OF THE
WEALTH THIS COUNTRY PRODUCES BECAUSE OF THE DEMANDS WE'RE GOING TO PUT FOR
ADDITIONAL WORKERS. THIS IS TERRIFIC POLICY FOR THE PEOPLE WE ALL REPRESENT. MR.
CHAIRMAN, I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR YOUR LEADERSHIP IN THIS. AND I LOOK FORWARD
TO ITS PROMPT PASSAGE.
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01:29:44
THANK YOU, SENATOR. AT THIS TIME, I'LL TURN TO TOM BARTHOLD, CHIEF OF STAFF JOINT
COMMITTEE ON TAXATION FOR A BRIEF OVERVIEW --
01:29:49
THE CONGRESSWOMAN SAID -- [ INAUDIBLE ] WHEN WOULD OUR CONFERENCE HAVE A

CHANCE TO ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT THE REAL BILL?
01:30:07
SO, SENATOR, AS YOU KNOW, WHEN THE CONFERENCE COMMITTEE IS FILED AT THE END OF
THIS WEEK, WE WILL ALL HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY, AS LEGISLATORS, TO REVIEW THE
LEGISLATION, DELIBERATE UPON IT, AND THEN VOTE IN THE HOUSE AND SENATE.
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01:30:16
THAT'S NOT THE CONFERENCE COMMITTEE. $10 TRILLION WORTH OF TAX CHANGES.
01:30:21
SO WHAT IS YOUR PARLIAMENTARY INQUIRY, SENATOR?

01:30:25
I THINK YOU ANSWERED IT. WE ARE NOT GOING TO GET A CHANCE TO ASK QUESTIONS
ABOUT $10 TRILLION OF TAX POLICY CHANGES.
01:30:29
THANK YOU, SENATOR. AT THIS TIME I TURN TO TOM BARTHOLD, CHIEF OF STAFF, FOR A
BRIEF OVERVIEW OF THE KEY DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE HOUSE AND SENATE VERSIONS OF
THE TAX CUTS AND JOBS ACT. I WOULD ASK MEMBERS HOLD THEIR QUESTIONS UNTIL AFTER
HIS PRESENTATION.
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01:30:45
MR. CHAIRMAN, JUST -- JUST WANTED TO CLARIFY WHAT SENATOR WYDEN ASKED. ARE YOU
--
01:30:49
MADAM SENATOR.
01:30:52
WILL WE ACTUALLY BE ASKED TO VOTE YES OR NO IN A CONFERENCE COMMITTEE BEFORE?

01:30:56
I THINK THAT QUESTION HAS BEEN ASKED AND ANSWERED.

01:31:00
SO WHEN DO WE VOTE ON IT? ARE WE GOING TO VOTE AS A CONFERENCE COMMITTEE?

01:31:04
YES, WHEN THE CONFERENCE COMMITTEE COMES TO THE SENATE, YOU WILL HAVE AN
OPPORTUNITY TO DELIBERATE.
01:31:09
SO AS A CONFERENCE COMMITTEE, WE'RE NOT GOING TO GET AN OPPORTUNITY TO VOTE

BEFORE WE SEE THE BILL.
01:31:13
AGAIN, CONFERENCE RULES.

01:31:15
I'M VERY -- I'VE BEEN ON OTHER CONFERENCE COMMITTEES. I'M JUST --

01:31:18
REGULAR ORDER. WE'RE GOING TO RESPECT EACH OTHER'S RIGHTS. MR. BARTHOLD, YOU'RE
RECOGNIZED.
01:31:34
WE'RE NOT VOTING?

01:31:40
THIS IS NOT REGULAR ORDER. THIS IS NOT REGULAR ORDER. THIS IS NOT THE KIND OF
CONFERENCE COMMITTEE I GREW UP WITH. WE HAD THE TEXT OF THE BILL BEFORE US.
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01:31:46
SENATOR, WE ARE GOING TO CONTINUE REGULAR ORDER.

01:31:50
THAT IS REGULAR ORDER! AND LET US REMIND EACH OTHER. WHEN THIS REPORT IS
PRESENTED, YOU WILL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO DISAGREE WITH IT.
01:32:02
WHEN DO WE HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO OFFER AMENDMENTS TO THE CONFERENCE

REPORT?
01:32:05
SENATOR, WE ARE GOING TO CONTINUE THIS --

01:32:07
THAT'S REGULAR ORDER. WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, THAT IS REGULAR ORDER.
01:32:11
SENATOR, YOU'RE OUT OF ORDER. WE'RE GOING TO RESPECT EACH OTHER.

01:32:15
I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE HERE OUT OF ORDER.

01:32:18
THANK YOU.
01:32:19
THANK YOU, CHAIRMAN BRADY, CHAIRMAN HATCH, MEMBERS OF THE CONFERENCE

COMMITTEE. THE STAFF OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE ON TAXATION HAS PREPARED TWO
DOCUMENTS TO ASSIST YOU IN REVIEWING THE TWO BILLS THAT ARE THE SUBJECT OF THIS
CONFERENCE OF THE TAX CUTS AND JOBS ACT. THE TWO DOCUMENTS ARE JCX-64 AND JCX-
65. THE FORMER PROVIDES A TEXT WALK-THROUGH OF SIMILARITIES AND DIFFERENCES IN
THE BILLS AND THE LATTER COMPARES IN A SIDE-BY-SIDE FASHION THE PROVISIONS OF THE
TWO RESPECTIVE LEGISLATION. THE LEGISLATION IS SUBSTANTIAL. MAKES MANY CHANGES
IN TERMS OF THE TAXATION OF INDIVIDUALS, TAXATION OF BUSINESS INCOME, AND
CHANGES ARE TAXATION OF INCOME EARNED FROM INVESTMENTS ABROAD. I'LL TRY TO BE
BRIEF, BUT AS I NOTED, IT IS SUBSTANTIAL, SO I'LL PROBABLY BE A BIT LONGER THAN WHEN
I'VE PRESENTED MATERIAL BEFORE THE TWO RESPECTIVE COMMITTEES. I'LL START WITH
THE INDIVIDUAL INCOME TAX, AND TRY AND HIGHLIGHT SOME SIMILARITIES AND NOTED
DIFFERENCES IN THE GENERAL STRUCTURE OF THE TWO BILLS. ONE OVERRIDING
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE LEGISLATION PASSED BY THE HOUSE AND THE LEGISLATION
PASSED BY THE SENATE IS THAT AS A GENERAL MATTER, MOST PROVISIONS AT THE
INDIVIDUAL TITLE OF THE SENATE LEGISLATION EXPIRE AFTER CALENDAR YEAR 2025. BOTH
BILLS REPEAL THE PERSONAL EXEMPTION. BOTH BILLS NEARLY DOUBLE THE STANDARD
DEDUCTION IN TERMS OF TAX RATES FOR THE INDIVIDUAL INCOME TAX STRUCTURE, THE
HOUSE PROVIDES FOUR RATES, RANGING FROM A LOW RATE OF 12% TO A TOP RATE OF 39.6%.
WHILE THE SENATE PROVIDES SEVEN INCOME TAX BRACKETS WITH THE LOWEST BRACKET
BEING 10%, THE HIGHEST BRACKET BEING 38.5%. BOTH BILLS EXPAND THE CHILD TAX
CREDIT. IN THE HOUSE, IT WOULD INCREASE THE VALUE OF THE CHILD TAX CREDIT TO $1600
PER ELIGIBLE CHILD. AND IN THE SENATE, TO $2,000 PER ELIGIBLE CHILD. IN ADDITION, THE
HOUSE BILL PROVIDES A FAMILY CREDIT OR A CREDIT FOR THE TAXPAYER, TAXPAYER'S
SPOUSE AND OTHER DEPENDENTS IN THE HOUSEHOLD OF $300. THAT WOULD EXPIRE AFTER
FIVE YEARS. IN THE SENATE, THERE IS AN ADDITIONAL CREDIT FOR NONCHILD DEPENDENTS
OF $500. BOTH BILLS MAKE SUBSTANTIAL CHANGES IN THE DEDUCTIONS THAT CERTAIN
TAXPAYERS MAY BE PERMITTED TO ELECT TO ITEMIZE. THE HOUSE AND SENATE BOTH
RETAIN ITEMIZED DEDUCTIONS FOR CHARITABLE CONTRIBUTIONS, MORTGAGE INTEREST,
ALTHOUGH THEY MAKE REFORMS TO THE AMOUNT OF INTEREST ALLOWABLE. AND PROVIDE
FOR DEDUCTION OF PROPERTY TAXES, LIMITED TO A TOTAL VALUE OF $10,000. IN ADDITION,
THE SENATE LEGISLATION WOULD PROVIDE AN ITEMIZED DEDUCTION FOR LARGE MEDICAL
EXPENSES. THE ALTERNATIVE MINIMUM TAX FOR INDIVIDUALS WOULD BE REPEALED
UNDER THE HOUSE LEGISLATION. IT WOULD BE RETAINED UNDER THE SENATE LEGISLATION,
BUT THE EXEMPTION AMOUNTS WOULD BE INCREASED. THE SENATE LEGISLATION ALSO
PLACES -- REDUCES TO ZERO THE PENALTY FOR FAILURE TO PURCHASE QUALIFIED MEDICAL
INSURANCE, REFERRED TO AS THE INDIVIDUAL MANDATE. BOTH LEGISLATION WOULD MAKE
SUBSTANTIAL CHANGES IN THE ESTATE AND GIFT TAXES. THE HOUSE WOULD DOUBLE THE
PRESENT LAW EXEMPTION AMOUNT AND THEN REPEAL THOSE TAXES AFTER 2024, MAKING A
CHANGE IN THE GIFT TAX AT THAT TIME. THE SENATE LEGISLATION DOUBLES THE PRESENT
LAW EXEMPTION AMOUNT. WITH RESPECT TO BUSINESS TAXES, I'LL FIRST DESCRIBE BRIEFLY
TAXATION OF PASS-THROUGH BUSINESS ENTITIES AND THEN C CORPORATIONS AND THEN
TRY AND SPEAK BRIEFLY ABOUT THE MEASUREMENT OF BUSINESS INCOME. THERE ARE
SUBSTANTIAL CHANGES MADE IN THE LEGISLATION IN ALL THOSE AREAS. WITH RESPECT TO
PASS-THROUGH BUSINESS INCOMES, THE HOUSE PROVIDES THAT THERE WOULD BE A
MAXIMUM RATE OF TAX ON THE QUALIFIED BUSINESS INCOME OF 25%, AND FOR TAXPAYERS
WHOSE INCOME WOULD OTHERWISE BE IN BRACKETS UNDER THE HOUSE PASS LEGISLATION,
LESS THAN 25%, IT WOULD PROVIDE REDUCED TAX RATES OF 11%, 10% AND 9%. THE SENATE
LEGISLATION TAX A DIFFERENT APPROACH OF RATHER THAN HAVING A MAXIMUM TAX RATE,
IT WOULD PROVIDE A 23% DEDUCTION FOR QUALIFYING BUSINESS INCOME AGAINST
WHATEVER THE TAX RATE WOULD OTHERWISE BE. BOTH LEGISLATION HAS CERTAIN
DEFINITIONS, WHICH LIMIT THE QUALIFYING AMOUNT OF INCOME OR EXCLUDES CERTAIN
TYPES OF INCOME FROM THE BENEFITS PROVIDED. IN TERMS OF THE TAXATION OF C
CORPORATIONS, THE HOUSE WOULD PROVIDE A 20% TAX RATE. THAT TAX RATE WOULD BE
EFFECTIVE BEGINNING AFTER 2017. THE HOUSE OF THE SENATE ALSO WOULD PROVIDE A 20%
TAX RATE, BUT IN THE SENATE LEGISLATION, THAT TAX RATE WOULD NOT BE EFFECTIVE
UNTIL AFTER 2018. IN THE HOUSE, THE CORPORATE ALTERNATIVE MINIMUM TAX WOULD BE
REPEALED. IN THE SENATE, THE CORPORATE ALTERNATIVE MINIMUM TAX WOULD BE
RETAINED. IN TERMS OF DEFINING BUSINESS INCOME, BOTH THE HOUSE AND SENATE WOULD
MAKE SUBSTANTIAL CHANGES IN CAPITAL COST RECOVERY. BOTH WOULD PROVIDE
ESSENTIALLY 100% EXPENSING OF CAPITAL INVESTMENT FOR THE FIRST FIVE YEARS OF THE
ENSUING BUDGET PERIOD. THE SENATE LEGISLATION WOULD DIFFER FROM THE HOUSE IN
THAT IT WOULD PHASE OUT THAT BENEFIT OVER THE SUCCEEDING FOUR YEARS. THE HOUSE
LEGISLATION WOULD RETURN TO PRESENT LAW, MAKERS COST RECOVERY AFTER FIVE
YEARS. BOTH THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE MAKE SUBSTANTIAL CHANGES TO EXPENSING
FOR SMALLER BUSINESSES THAT'S PROVIDED UNDER CODE SECTION 179. FOR A FIVE-YEAR
PERIOD, THE HOUSE LEGISLATION WOULD PROVIDE UP TO $5 MILLION WORTH OF CAPITAL
EQUIPMENT COULD BE EXPENSED. THEREAFTER RETURNING TO PRESENT LAW LEVELS. THE
SENATE LEGISLATION WOULD PERMANENTLY PROVIDE FOR UP TO $1 MILLION WORTH OF
CAPITAL EXPENDITURE TO BE INCREASED ANNUALLY. THOSE FIGURES IN BOTH BILLS ARE
INDEXED FOR INFLATION. BOTH THE LEGISLATION OF THE HOUSE AND SENATE WOULD ALSO
CHANGE ACCOUNTING, BE UNIFORM CAPITALIZATION RULES, PROVIDING SAFE HARBORS
FOR SMALL BUSINESSES BY UNIFYING THE DEFINITION OF SMALL BUSINESS FOR THOSE
PURPOSES. IN THE HOUSE, THE DEFINITION WOULD BE BASED AT $25 MILLION WORTH OF
GROSS RECEIPTS. IN THE SENATE, $15 MILLION WORTH OF GROSS RECEIPTS. THE
LEGISLATION IN BOTH THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE PLACE LIMITATIONS ON THE AMOUNT OF
INTEREST THAT MAY BE CLAIMED. BOTH WOULD HAVE -- WOULD DENY UP TO 30% OF
INTEREST, BUT WOULD DEFINE THE LIMITATION IN DIFFERENT WAYS THAT WE CAN TALK
ABOUT, IF THAT'S OF INTEREST TO THE MEMBERS IN QUESTION TIME. ANOTHER
SUBSTANTIAL STRUCTURAL CHANGE THAT THE HOUSE AND SENATE WOULD MAKE IS THAT
THEY WOULD LIMIT THE AMOUNT OF NET OPERATING LOSSES THAT MAY BE CLAIMED
AGAINST CURRENT YEAR TAXABLE INCOME. IN THE CASE OF THE HOUSE, IT WOULD BE
LIMITED TO 90% OF TAXABLE INCOME. THE SENATE, 90% OF TAXABLE INCOME, ALTHOUGH
AFTER 2022, IT WOULD BE LIMITED 80% OF TAXABLE INCOME. ALSO, SUBSTANTIAL
DIFFERENCES, AS I NOTED INITIALLY, IN TERMS OF THE TREATMENT OF INCOME EARNED
FROM CROSS-BORDER INVESTMENTS, CROSS-BORDER BUSINESS INCOME. IN CROSS BORDER
INVESTMENT, BOTH THE HOUSE BILL AND SENATE BILL WOULD SHIFT THE UNITED STATES
AWAY FROM WHAT'S CHARACTERIZED AS WORLDWIDE TAXATION SO-TO-WHAT'S REFERRED
TO AS TERRITORIAL TAXATION. BOTH BILLS WOULD PROVIDE THAT FOR PREVIOUSLY
UNTAXED FOREIGN EARNINGS THAT HAVE BEEN HELD ABROAD BY U.S. HEADQUARTERED
COMPANIES THAT THERE WOULD BE A DEEMED REPATRIATION OF THOSE EARNINGS. IN THE
HOUSE THE EFFECTIVE TAX RATE ON THIS INCOME THAT IS DEEMED REPATRIATED WOULD BE
7% FOR ASSETS HELD IN ILL LIQUID FORM IN THE SENATE THOSE RATES OF TAX WOULD BE
7.5% AND 14.5%. BOTH BILLS PROVIDE FOR BASE EROSIONS PROTECTIONS. THE HOUSE
PROVIDES A REGIME OF DEFINED AS FOREIGN HIGH RETURN INCOME. IT WOULD PROVIDE
FOR CURRENT YEAR TAXATION AT A 50% RATE FOR CERTAIN INCOME EARNED FROM IN
TANGIBLE INVESTMENTS. THERE'S -- THERE'S MEASURE OF HOW WE DEFINE HIGH RETURN.
THE SENATE HAS A SIMILAR PROVISION WHICH IS REFERRED TO IN THE SENATE LEGISLATION
WHICH IS -- IT PROVIDES A DEDUCTION OF 50% CURRENT INCLUSION. THAT DEDUCTION
WOULD BE REDUCED TO 37% AFTER CALENDAR YEAR 2025. SENATE LEGISLATION IN
ADDITION WOULD PROVIDE THAT FOR CERTAIN INCOME EARNED IN THE UNITED STATES
ATTRIBUTABLE TO EXPLOITING INTANGIBLE ASSETS AND SOLD ABROAD THE INCOME
EARNED FROM FOREIGN SOURCES THAT THERE WOULD BE A DEDUCTION AGAINST THE U.S.
TAX BASE EFFECTIVELY LOWERING THE TAX RATE ON INCOME EARNED IN THE UNITED
STATES BY EXPLOITING IT IN SALES -- IN SALES ABROAD. BOTH BILLS PROVIDE FOR BASE RE
EROSION PROTECTION, INBOUND PROTECTIONS. IT WOULD MAKE CHANGE IN THE AMOUNT
OF INTEREST THAT MAY BE DEDUCTED IN THE UNITED STATES. BOTH BILLS WOULD ALSO
PROVIDE THAT CERTAIN CROSS BORDER TRANSACTIONS BETWEEN RELATED PARTIES COULD
BE SUBJECT TO AN INCOME TAX IN THE SENATE BILL, A 10% TAX REDUCED BY THE AMOUNT
OF REGULAR TAX FOR TAXPAYERS WITH GROSS INCOME ANNUALLY OF OVER $500 MILLION.
IN THE HOUSE IT WOULD BE SIMILAR TAXPAYERS WOULD BE ABLE TO ELECT NET BASIS TAX
YAEGS ON AN EXPANDED DEFINITION OF THEIR INCOME WHICH WOULD INCLUDE SOME OF
THE INCOME FROM FOREIGN OPERATION. MR. CHAIRMAN, THAT CONCLUDES MY BRIEF WALK
THROUGH OR I'VE TRIED TO HIGHLIGHT THE MAJOR DIFFERENCES IN SOME OF THE MAJOR
SIMILARITIES WHEN THE STRUCTURE OF THE UNDERLYING TAX LAW HAS BEEN CHANGED.
I'D BE HAPPY TO ANSWER ANY QUESTION THAT THE MEMBERS OF THE CONFERENCE
COMMITTEE MIGHT HAVE.
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01:42:58
THANK YOU, MR. BARTHOLD. WE'LL BEGIN THE SECOND ROUND OF QUESTIONS. I'LL
RECOGNIZE MYSELF. SO WE'RE REALLY FOCUSED ON GROWTH. WE ALL AGREE PEOPLE ARE
TIRED OF WATCHING AMERICAN JOBS GO OVERSEAS. WE'RE TIRED OF SEEING PAYCHECKS
SAY STAGNANT FOR DECADES. IT IS TIME AND GROWTH MATTERS. AND THAT'S THE FOCUS OF
THIS TO GROW JOBS, PAYCHECKS IN THE U.S. ECONOMY, LEAP FROG AMERICA BACK INTO
THE LEAD PACK. YOU'VE ESTIMATED AND ANALYZED THESE BILLS, SO CAN YOU TELL US
ABOUT HOW THE GROWTH YOU PROJECT FROM THESE BILLS WILL EFFECT JOBS AND HOW
WILL THEY EFFECT THE AFTERTAX EARNINGS OF MIDDLE INCOME TAXPAYERS?
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01:43:44
THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN. I THINK YOU'RE REFERRING TO SOME OF THE ANALYSIS THAT
THE STAFF, THE JOINT COMMITTEE CARRIED OUT AS REQUIRED BY HOUSE RULES IN THE
BUDGET RESOLUTION TALK ABOUT POTENTIAL MACRO ECONOMIC EFFECTS FROM THE
LEGISLATION. WHAT WE'VE CALCULATED IS THAT SOME OF THE EFFECTS THAT YOU NOTED
ARE THAT ON AVERAGE UNDER THE HOUSE BILL, EMPLOYMENT'S PROJECTED TO INCREASE
BY ONE HALF OF 1% RELATIVE TO BASELINE LEVELS OVER THE PERIOD THAT MEANS MORE
EMPLOYMENT, MORE LABOR INCOME. PROJECTED THAT THE -- UNDER THE HOUSE
LEGISLATION THAT THE CAPITAL STOCK WOULD BE ABOUT 9/10 OF 1% HIGHER. IN TERMS OF
GREATER WAGES. OVERALL, THE EFFECT ON THE U.S. ECONOMY, WE PROJECTED THAT THE
REAL GROWTH DOMESTIC PRODUCT WILL BE 7/10 OF 1% HIGHER JUST TO GIVE A FRAME OF
REFERENCE. CURRENT GROSS DOMESTIC PRODUCTS A LITTLE OVER $19 TRILLION AND SO
7/10 OF 1% MEANS ON AVERAGE ANY ONE YEAR AN ADDITIONAL $135 BILLION WORTH OF
GROSS DOMESTIC PRODUCT, GROSS NATIONAL INCOME.
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01:45:15
SO GROWTH IN JOBS, GROWTH IN PRODUCTIVITY, GROWTH IN WAGES AND GROWTH IN THE

U.S. ECONOMY. SO MOST AMERICANS WORK ALONG MAIN STREET. CAN YOU SHOW HOW
YOUR ESTIMATES SHOW HOW INDIVIDUALS WILL BENEFIT FROM THE TAX CHANGES ON THE
BUSINESS SIDE?
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01:45:29
MR. CHAIRMAN, WE'VE PREPARED AT THE TIME OF THE -- THAT THE WAYS AND MEANS
COMMITTEE ACTED AND THE HOUSE DELIBERATED SOME DISTRIBUTIONAL ANALYSIS AND
OUR ANALYSIS FOLLOWING EMPIRICAL ECONOMIC LITERATURE ATTRIBUTES SOME OF THE
BENEFITS FROM THE CAPITAL GROWTH FROM BUSINESS -- BUSINESS EXPANSION IN TERMS
OF BENEFITS TO INDIVIDUALS, BOTH IN TERMS OF THE WAGE EFFECTS THAT I NOTED A
MOMENT AGO ALSO IN TERMS OF RETURNS THAT THEY MAY EARN THROUGH PENSION
ASSETS.
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01:46:07
MR. BARTHOLD, I'LL HOLD MYSELF STRICTLY TO THREE MINUTES AS WELL.

01:46:16
THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN. SOME OF MY FRIENDS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE AISLE HAVE
RECENTLY BEEN DECRYING INTERESTS OF CORPORATE PROFITS. WHAT THEY TYPICALLY FAIL
TO MENTION IS THAT HOUSEHOLD WEALTH IS GENERALLY RISEN FOR DECADES EVEN WHEN
ADJUSTED FOR INFLATION. TYPICALLY MY FRIENDS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE AISLE
SUGGEST THAT RISING CORPORATE PRICES SOMEHOW ACCRUE TO THE RICH, UNQUOTE.
WHETHER IT'S A CORPORATE CEO BUT THIS SEEMS TO IGNORE THE FACT THAT EQUITY
CORPORATIONS HAVE CONTRIBUTED A GREAT DEAL TO RETIREMENT SAVINGS OF PENSION
HOLDERS, A LARGE NUMBER OF WHOM ARE IN THE MIDDLE CLASS. THIS HAS BEEN A HUGE
SOURCE OF GROWING WEALTH IN THIS COUNTRY. DR. BART HOLD, PRO-GROWTH AND
PROMIDDLE CLASS TAX REFORMS THAT THE SENATE AND HOUSE HAVE PASSED, DOES THAT
MEAN ONLY THE SO-CALLED, QUOTE, RICH, UNQUOTE WILL BENEFIT?
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01:47:24
CHAIRMAN HATCH, I DON'T LIKE LABELLING RICH SINCE IT'S NOT CLEAR WHAT THAT MEANS
IN TERMS OF INCOMES.
01:47:33
I UNDERSTAND.
01:47:35
IT IS THE CASE THAT INDIVIDUALS IN THE TOP HALF OF THE INCOME DISTRIBUTION OWN
MORE ASSETS AND PROBABLY MORE BUSINESS ASSETS, BUT INDIVIDUALS ACROSS ALL
PARTS OF THE INCOME DISTRIBUTION AS YOU NOTED WILL BENEFIT FROM INCREASE IN
PENSION ASSETS, IF THEY OWN THEIR OWN HOMES, INCREASE IN THE VALUE OF THEIR
HOMES. SO IT IS NOT THE CASE THAT IF CORPORATE PROFITS INCREASE THAT -- THAT ONLY
MEANS THAT THERE'S A BENEFIT TO THE VERY HIGHEST INCOME INDIVIDUALS IN THE
UNITED STATES.
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01:48:19
THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN.

01:48:20
THANK YOU. MR. NEIL, YOU ARE RECOGNIZED.

01:48:27
THANK YOU. DO YOU REMEMBER AT ANY TIME ATTENDING A HEARING ON HR 1 IN THE
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TO DISCUSS THE REPUBLICAN TAX PLAN?
01:48:35
MR. NEAL, I DON'T KNOW IF IT COUNTS AS A HEARING BUT WE DID HAVE MARKUP.
01:48:40
THAT DOESN'T COUNT AS A HEARING WHERE WE HAD A CHANCE TO GO BACK AND FORTH
WITH YOU.
01:48:44
SUBSEQUENT TO WAYS AND MEANS MARKING UP AND REPORTING LEGISLATION, THERE WAS
NOT A HEARING ON THAT LEGISLATION.
01:48:49
THANK YOU, MR. BARTHOLD. SO THERE WAS NOT A HEARING SO WE MIGHT CONFIRM THAT.
WE DID NOT HAVE ONE HEARING ON THIS TAX BILL IN THE WAYS AND MEANS COMMITTEE.
NOW, MR. BARTHOLD, ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WE HAD AND I KNOW IT'S NOT AN EASY
POSITION FOR YOU, ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WE HAVE NOW IS WE'RE TRYING TO RESPOND TO
A BILL THAT'S ALREADY PASSED THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. WE KNOW ABOUT THE
BILL. WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO DISCUSS WHAT THE FINAL PACKAGE APPARENTLY IS
GOING TO LOOK LIKE. THERE'S NO OPPORTUNITY TO DO THAT. THERE'S NO GIVE AND TAKE.
SENATOR CARPER SAID, WE ATTENDED AND PARTICIPATED IN CONFERENCE COMMITTEES AT
ONE TIME. THE S & L CONFERENCE COMMITTEE. I WAS ON IT. WE HAD A CHANCE TO GO BACK
AND FORTH WITH AMENDMENTS AND ACTUALLY IT WAS VERY AMENABLE TO A FLUID
CONVERSATION. BOTH SIDES REACHED AGREEMENT AND WE PASSED EVENTUALLY
SOMETHING OUT OF THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE COULD LIVE
WITH. THAT IS NOT HAPPENED IN THIS INSTANCE HERE. NOW, SECRETARY MNUCHIN HAS
INDICATED THAT EARLY ON THERE WOULD BE NO ABSOLUTE TAX CUT FOR THE UPPER
CLASS. MR. BARTHOLD, IS THERE ANY COUPLE OR INDIVIDUALS THAT WILL BE MAKING $1
MILLION THAT IN THIS INSTANCE HERE ARE GOING TO SEE A TAX CUT?
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01:50:14
MR. NEAL, THE SIMPLE ANSWER IS YES. I'LL POINT YOU TO A COUPLE OF FACTORS IN THE
LEGISLATION BOTH IN THE HOUSE AND IN THE SENATE. INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE OWNERS
EITHER PASSIVE OWNERS OR ACTIVE OWNERS OF PASS THROUGH BUSINESS INCOME COULD,
IF THEY CURRENTLY HAVE AN INCOME OVER $1 MILLION COULD SEE THEIR TAXES REDUCED
BECAUSE AS I NOTED IN THE HOUSE THERE'S A MAXIMUM TAX RATE ON INCOME
ATTRIBUTABLE TO THOSE BUSINESSES.
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01:50:47
TOM, BECAUSE I ONLY HAVE 32 SECONDS LEFT. WHAT HAPPENED IN THE HOUSE BILL TO NEW
MARKETS TAX CREDITS?
01:50:54
IT IS EFFECTIVELY REPEALED BY NO NEW ALLOCATIONS.

01:50:57
AND THE HISTORIC TAX CREDIT?

01:51:00
IT WOULD BE REPEALED, SIR.

01:51:02
AND THE ORPHAN TAX BILL.

01:51:03
IT WOULD BE REPEALED.
01:51:05
PRIVATE ACTIVITY BOND. >> IT WAS ALSO REPEALED, SIR.

01:51:14
THANK YOU.
01:51:15
THANK YOU, SENATOR WINE YOU'RE RECOGNIZED.

01:51:18
CHAIRMAN BRADY IS NOW CONFIRMED THAT THIS IS A REALITY SHOW VERSION OF A

CONFERENCE COMMITTEE. WE'RE NOT GOING TO GET A CHANCE TO ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT
$10 TRILLION WORTH OF TAX CHANGES IN A REAL BILL. SO MR. BARTHOLD, I HAVE SOME
QUESTIONS FOR YOU THAT GO TO THE ISSUE OF THE MIDDLE CLASS GETTING THE SHAFT
HERE AND I JUST WOULD LIKE, IF WE COULD, TO SEE IF WE COULD GET YES OR NO ANSWERS.
IS IT CORRECT, MR. BARTHOLD, THAT IN THE SENATE BILL THE INDIVIDUAL TAX CHANGES
ARE TEMPORARY EXCEPT FOR THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT CHANGES AND THE CHANGE TO
REDUCE INFLATION,
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01:51:55
IS THAT CORRECT? >> THAT'S CORRECT.

01:51:58
THANK YOU. ON THIS ISSUE OF WAGES, I ASKED YOU SPECIFICALLY IN THE COMMITTEE
ABOUT THIS IDEA THAT THE SENATE BILL WOULD GENERATE $4,000 WORTH OF ADDITIONAL
WAGE PER WORKER. YOU SAID THAT THAT WAS VERY UNLIKELY AND YOU REFERRED US TO
SOME TABLES. IS THAT STILL YOUR POSITION?
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01:52:26
I STILL STAND BY THAT STATEMENT, SIR.

01:52:28
GREAT. COMPARED TO CURRENT LAW, ISN'T IT CORRECT THAT MILLIONS OF FAMILIES,

MILLIONS OF MIDDLE CLASS FAMILIES WALKING ON AN ECONOMIC TIGHT ROPE ARE GOING
TO HAVE A TAX INCREASE DUE TO THOSE EXPIRING PROVISIONS THAT I JUST MENTIONED?
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01:52:49
THE EFFECTIVE CHANGING THE INFLATION ADJUSTMENT WILL HAVE THE EFFECT OF
SLOWING THOSE ADJUSTMENTS SO THAT THERE -- UPON EXPIRATION OF THE REDUCED TAX
RATES AND OTHER FEATURES OF THE SENATE LEGISLATION, YOU COULD SEE -- YOU WILL SEE
HIGHER TAXES FOR SOME FAMILIES.
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01:53:10
WHAT IS THE REVENUE IMPACT OF A 1% POINT DECREASE IN THE TOP RATE?

01:53:21
I'LL -- I DON'T KNOW OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD. I'LL HAVE TO GET BACK TO YOU. I'LL PROVIDE
THAT INFORMATION TO THE --
01:53:25
WHO BENEFITS THE MOST FROM A CUT IN THE TOP RATE? WHAT'S THE PERCENTAGE OF
TAXPAYERS?
01:53:34
THE PERCENTAGE I'LL ALSO HAVE TO RESPOND. THE TOP RATE IS UNDER THE TOP -- UNDER
THE TOP 5%.
01:53:42
UNDER 5%? OKAY. ONE LAST QUESTION. AGAIN TO HIGHLIGHT THE DOUBLE STANDARD
HERE, WE'RE RIDING INTO BLACK LETTER LAW, PERMANENT REDUCTIONS FOR MULTI-
NATIONAL CORPORATIONS AND HAVING TEMPORARY PROVISIONS FOR WORKING FAMILIES
ISN'T IN THE HOUSE BILL BECAUSE IT REALLY THERE'S SOME SYMMETRY WITH THE SENATE
BILL. ISN'T THE HOUSE BILL THE CHILD TAX CREDIT EXPANSIONS AND THE FAMILY CREDIT
TEMPORARY?
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01:54:11
THE CHILD TAX CREDIT EXPANSION IS PERMANENT.

01:54:14
IN THE HOUSE BILL.

01:54:16
IN THE HOUSE BILL. THE FAMILY CREDIT THAT I DESCRIBED IS FOR FIVE YEARS ONLY IN THE
HOUSE BILL.
01:54:21
THANK YOU. THANK YOU.

01:54:25
REPRESENTATIVE NUNEZ YOU'RE RECOGNIZED.

01:54:28
MR. BARTHOLD, LET ME GO OVER THE TWO BILLS AND MAYBE YOU CAN HELP US ELIMINATE
THE DIFFERENCES AND YOU WALKED THROUGH THEM BUT I'M SPECIFICALLY INTERESTED AT
FIRST IN THE SENATE BILL THAT HAS A $15 MILLION PROVISION FOR DEFINITION FOR SMALL
BUSINESS AND $25 MILLION IN THE HOUSE BILL. CAN YOU QUICKLY JUST WALK US THROUGH
THOSE DIFFERENCES AND THE DIFFERENCES IN THE EXPENSING PROVISIONS AND POSSIBLY,
YOU PROBABLY DON'T HAVE THIS NUMBER, BUT I'D BE INTERESTED IN THE COST
DIFFERENTIAL BETWEEN THE TWO BILLS?
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01:55:01
THE COST DIFFERENTIAL IS ACTUALLY --

01:55:03
SPECIFICALLY ON THOSE PROVISIONS.

01:55:06
ON THOSE PROVISIONS IS -- IS AVAILABLE IN JCX 65 I BELIEVE, THE SIDE BY SIDE WE SHOWED

THE EFFECTS OF THE CAPITAL COST RECOVERY AND THE UNIFORM -- UNIFORM DEFINITION
OF BUSINESS. IF YOU LOOK ON PAGE 5 OF JCX 65, THE COST RECOVERY PROVISION, THE
EXPANDED BONUS DEPRECIATION IN THE HOUSE BILL ESTIMATED 10 YEAR TOTAL OF $25
BILLION, SENATE BILL, $96.7 BILLION. THE SMALL BUSINESS REFORM, SO STARTING WITH
SECTION 179, PROVISION WHICH IS ALSO AN EXPENSING PROVISION, THE HOUSE $11.4
BILLION, THE SENATE $24 BILLION. IN TERMS OF THE SMALL BUSINESS ACCOUNTING
METHOD REFORM THAT YOU JUST HIGHLIGHTED WHERE THE HOUSE HAS THE $25 MILLION
DEFINITION AND THE HOUSE THE $15 MILLION DEFINITION. THE ESTIMATED REVENUE LOSS
FROM THE HOUSE LEGISLATION IS $30 BILLION AND FROM THE SENATE LEGISLATION $27.6
MILLION.
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01:56:21
SO ADDING USED EQUIPMENT, THE USED EQUIPMENT DEFINITION TO THE -- TO EITHER BILL
IS NOT GOING TO BE A LARGE COST RECOVERY?
01:56:31
IT WILL NOT -- IT WILL NOT BE -- IT WILL BE UNDER $5 BILLION.

01:56:36
OKAY. THE HOUSE HAD A 25% PASSIVE INVESTMENT RATE.

01:56:44
THAT'S A MAXIMUM RATE AND A LOWER RATE FOR INDIVIDUALS WHO'S INCOME WOULD
OTHERWISE BE IN BRACKETS BELOW THE 25% TAX BRACKET.
01:56:54
AND WHAT'S THE MAJOR DIFFERENCES IN 30 SECONDS BETWEEN THE HOUSE AND SENATE
BILL ON THOSE PASSIVE RATES?
01:56:59
WELL, IT'S REALLY IN THE STRUCTURE. AS YOU JUST NOTED IT'S A MAXIMUM RATE OF TAX
AND THEN THERE'S A SLOWER -- THERE'S LOWER RATES FOR INDIVIDUALS WHO'S INCOME
WOULD OTHERWISE BE IN THE LOWER BRACKETS. IN THE SENATE LEGISLATION, IT'S A FIXED
PERCENTAGE DEDUCTION AGAINST WHATEVER THE INCOME IS IN THOSE BRACKETS.
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01:57:21
THANK YOU, MR. BARTHOLD AND MR. CHAIRMAN, I THINK, THE HOUSE AND SENATE ARE
VERY CLOSE ON THESE PROVISIONS AND THEY ARE QUITE CRITICAL FOR ECONOMIC
GROWTH. I YIELD BACK.
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01:57:36
THANK YOU.
01:57:38
THANK YOU.
01:57:40
MR. BARTHOLD, I'VE LONG BEEN A PROPONENT OF MAKING OUR TAX SYSTEM SIMPLER
PARTICULARLY FOR INDIVIDUALS. IN THESE BILLS, ARE THERE PROVISIONS THAT WOULD
MAKE COMPLIANCE WITH THE TAX SYSTEM EASIER FOR INDIVIDUALS?
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01:57:52
SENATOR ENZI, ON THE INDIVIDUAL SIDE, ON PRESENT LAW, WE PROJECTED THAT ABOUT
29%-30% OF TAXPAYER ITEMIZE. WE PROJECT THAT EITHER UNDER THE HOUSE BILL OR THE
SENATE BILL THOSE NUMBERS WOULD FALL TO 5% TO 6% TO TO THE EXTEND ITEMIZATION
REQUIRES ADDITIONAL RECORDKEEPING AND VERIFICATION THAT WOULD BE AN ELEMENT
OF POTENTIALLY SUBSTANTIAL ELEMENT OF SIMPLIFICATION, SIR.
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01:58:21
THANK YOU. MOVE TO ENTER THE INTERNATIONAL TAX REFORM WHICH WOULD HAVE
EFFORTS TO ENCOURAGE U.S. HEADQUARTERED MULTI-NATIONAL COMPANIES TO STAY IN
THE UNITED STATES VERSUS LOCATING OVERSEAS. WHAT TYPES OF CHANGES UNDER THE
BILLS WOULD YOU EXPECT TO INCENTIVIZE U.S. COMPANIES TO REMAIN IN THE UNITED
STATES?
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01:58:51
THE LEGISLATION HAS A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT FEATURES AND IT VARIES HOUSE TO SENATE.
TOP LINE TO THE EXTENT THAT A LOWER CORPORATE TAX RATE IS BENEFICIAL TO BEING
LOCATED IN THE UNITED STATES COMPARED TO OTHER COUNTRIES WHICH PRESENTLY HAVE
LOWER STATUTORY TAX RATES THAN DOES THE UNITED STATES. THAT REDUCTION WOULD
PROVIDE INCENTIVE TO INVEST IN UNITED STATES REMAINED HEADQUARTERED IN THE
UNITED STATES. IN THE SENATE LEGISLATION, THERE'S ALSO THE ADDITIONAL BENEFIT TO
INVESTMENT IN THE UNITED STATES FROM THE FOREIGN DERIVED AND TANGIBLE INCOME
PROVISION THAT I BRIEFLY DESCRIBED. IT PROVIDES AN ADDITIONAL PREFERENCE FOR
PRODUCING AND SELLING IN THE UNITED STATES AND SERVING FOREIGN MARKETS.
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01:59:39
THANK YOU. I'M ALWAYS VERY IMPRESSED AT YOUR ABILITY TO COVER THESE COMPLEX
SITUATIONS AND MAKE THEM SOUND -- AND MAKE THEM INTO ANSWERS THAT ARE
UNDERSTANDABLE. THANK YOU. I YIELD BACK.
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01:59:55
THANK YOU. REPRESENTATIVE LEVIN YOU'RE RECOGNIZED TO QUESTION MR. BARTHOLD.

02:00:02
MR. BARTHOLD, WE VERY MUCH RESPECT YOU. SO LET ME ASK YOU SOME QUESTIONS
ABOUT FACTS AND WE'VE SENT THESE TO YOU. IT'S THE ESTIMATE THAT IN 2019, 12.7 MILLION
PEOPLE WITH INCOMES UNDER 200,000 UNDER THE HOUSE BILL AND 12.9 MILLION UNDER
THE SENATE BILL WOULD PAY HIGHER TAXES. IS THAT ESTIMATE ESSENTIALLY CORRECT?
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02:00:36
MR. LEVIN, YES, YOU ASKED ABOUT SOME WORK THAT WE DID ON THE HOUSE BILL AND ON
THE SENATE BILL WHERE WE CALCULATED PERCENTAGE OF TAXPAYERS BY SOME INCOME
CATEGORIES WHO WOULD SEE TAX INCREASES OR TAX DECREASES OR ESSENTIALLY NO
CHANGE AND THE SUMMARY THAT YOU'VE PRESENTED IS ACCURATE, SIR.
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02:00:59
IT'S ACCURATE. AND AS TO 2027, THE ESTIMATE THAT WE SENT TO YOU THAT BY 2027, 32.5
MILLION PEOPLE WITH INCOMES UNDER $200,000 WOULD HAVE HIGHER TAXES UNDER THE
HOUSE BILL AND 37.8 MILLION UNDER THE SENATE BILL, IS THAT ESTIMATE THAT WE SENT
YOU BASED ON YOUR EARLIER WORK ESSENTIALLY CORRECT?
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02:01:28
IN 2027?
02:01:29
YES.
02:01:46
IN 2027 ROUGHLY 23.8 MILLION TAX FILING UNITS WOULD HAVE TAX INCREASE OF AT LEAST
HUNDRED DOLLARS OR MORE.
02:01:56
OKAY. MY GOOD FRIEND AND HE IS, MR. PORTMAN TALKED ABOUT PROOF IN , THE PUDDING.
THOSE FACTS SHOW WHAT WILL BE IN THE PUDDING AND I THINK THE ANSWER IS MORE
TAXES. LET ME ASK YOU, IS IT CORRECT THAT THE AVERAGE TAX CUT IN 2019 FOR FILERS
WITHIN INCOME OVER 1 MILLION OR MORE UNDER THE HOUSE BILL AND SENATE BILLS
WOULD BE 73,000 UNDER THE HOUSE BILL AND 59,000 UNDER THE SENATE BILL, 73,000 UNDER
THE HOUSE AND 59,000 UNDER THE SENATE BILL?
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02:02:43
I'M TOLD YOU'RE CORRECT.

02:02:57
GENTLEMAN'S TIME IS EXPIRED. >> IT GIVES LIE --

02:03:02
IT GIVES LIE -- >> YOUR TIME IS EXPIRED.
02:03:07
THANK YOU. MR. BARTHOLD WHEN YOU ATTENDED THE MARKUP OF HR 1 IN THE HOUSE
BEFORE THE WAYS AND MEANS COMMITTEE, DID YOU RECALL WHETHER THE MINORITY
OFFERED ANY AMENDMENTS THAT YOU WOULD CHARACTERIZE AS COMPREHENSIVE? IN
OTHER WORDS, BIG, BOLD, OVERWHELMING COMPREHENSIVE APPROACH? WERE YOU ASKED
TO OPINE ON ANYTHING OF THAT MAGNITUDE?
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02:03:30
MR. ROSSCAM, I SHOULDN'T CHARACTERIZE MEMBER AMENDMENTS --

02:03:37
LET ME ASK IT THIS WAY, DO YOU RECALL -- THIS IS FUN. IT'S LIKE DEPOSITION DAYS. DO YOU
RECALL -- YOU RECALL BEING THERE THAT DAY, DON'T YOU, MR. BARTHOLD? SO HERE'S MY
POINT. I THINK THAT THERE WERE A NUMBER OF AMENDMENTS THAT WERE OFFERED BY OUR
FRIENDS ON THE SIDE OF THE AISLE. THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF THOSE, I'M NOT
SURE IF EVERYONE WAS BUT IF THERE WERE A DOZEN, LET'S SAY, THE LION'S SHARE OF
THEM WERE A RESTORATION OF WHAT, THE STATUS QUO? IT WAS TO PUT SOMETHING BACK,
TO PUT SOMETHING BACK, TO PUT SOMETHING BACK. IN OTHER WORDS, A MINORITY PARTY
THAT HAS ACCESS THE SAME TYPE OF STAFF, THE SAME TYPE OF BACKGROUND, THE SAME
TYPE OF WHEREWITHAL AND RESOURCES AND CAPACITY STEPPED BACK FROM THE
OPPORTUNITY TO OFFER SOMETHING, AN AMENDMENT IN THE NATURE OF THE SUBSTITUTE.
NOW THAT'S THEIR PREROGATIVE. IT'S ABSOLUTELY THEIR PREROGATIVE BUT I WANT TO GO
BACK TO THE EDITORIAL THAT I MENTIONED A MINUTE AGO DURING MY TIME THAT'S NOW
IN THE RECORD, THE CHICAGO TRIBUNE. I WANTED TO JUST READ QUICKLY TWO QUICK
PARAGRAPHS AND THIS IS THEIR DECEMBER 5TH EDITORIAL. THE CHICAGO TRIBUNE, THE
TITLE OF WHICH FROM THE EDITORS, THIS TAX DEAL WILL MAKE AMERICA MORE
PROSPEROUS. A VOTE AGAINST THIS BILL IS A VOTE TO MAINTAIN AMERICA AS IT LOOKS
TODAY. THIS SUBPARAGRAPH, MAINTAIN THE STATUS QUO. EVERYONE HAS STIPULATED, BY
THE WAY, IS MISERABLE. BACK TO THE TEXT. ARE YOU HAPPY WITH THE WAY THE STATE OF
THE ECONOMY HAS BEEN SINCE THE END OF THE GREAT RECESSION EIGHT YEARS AGO? YOU
SHOULDN'T BE. FIRST, DISCARD THE IMPACT OF THE MARKET BOOM FATTENING YOUR 401(K)
SINCE TRUMP'S ELECTION BECAUSE THAT'S DUE IN PART OF TAX INCENTIVE. HERE IS WHAT
YOU ARE LEFT WITH. A NATION THAT HAS GROWN A 2% OR LESS A YEAR. THAT'S NOT FAST
ENOUGH TO BOOST STALL INSTANT WAGES, INCREASE JOB PARTICIPATION OR IMPROVING
U.S. COMPETITIVENESS VERSUS OTHER COUNTRIES. PASSING THIS TAX REFORM SHOULD GET
THE ECONOMY TO A STEADY 3% GROWTH. AT THAT RATE, THE COUNTRY GENERATES
TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN NEW ECONOMIC ACTIVITY, CREATES JOBS AND INCREASES
HOUSEHOLD INCOME, MONEY TO BE SPENT OR SAVED. LAST POINT. IT IS THE STATUS QUO
THAT HAS CREATED SO MUCH DIVISION AMONG US. IT IS THE STATUS QUO THAT HAS
EXCLUDED PEOPLE AT THE BOTTOM END OF THE ECONOMIC SCALE. IT HAS THE STATUS QUO
THAT HAS BENEFITED A GREAT NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO FRIENDS AND FOES ARE CRITICS OF.
WE NEED TO DO THIS AND I YIELD BACK.
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02:06:12
THANK YOU. SENATOR MURKOWSKI.
02:06:17
THANK YOU MR. CHAIRMAN. IT WAS SUGGESTED EARLIER THAT WITH REGARDS TO TITLE 2
AND SPECIFICALLY THE DEVELOPMENT WITHIN THE 1002 AREA OF AN WAR THAT THIS
PROVISION WAS UNPOPULAR, IT WAS UNNECESSARY, WE DON'T NEED IT BECAUSE WE ARE
CONTINUING TO SEE EXPORTS OF OIL. MR. CHAIRMAN, RATHER THAN ASKING A DIRECT
QUESTION TO MR. BARTHOLD, I WOULD LIKE TO ASK FOR PERMISSION TO INCLUDE FOR THE
RECORD HERE TESTIMONY THAT WE HAD RECEIVED FROM MR. MATTHEW REXFORD WHO'S
THE TRIBAL ADMINISTRATOR TO THE NATIVE VILLAGE OF KOKTOVIC. IT IS THE VILLAGE
LOCATED WITHIN THE 1002 AREA. YOU CAN'T HAVE A WILDERNESS IF YOU HAVE A SCHOOL, A
CLINIC, A ROAD, AN AIRSTRIP. THESE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE WITHIN THE 1002 AREA. MR.
REXFORD WAS VERY ARTICULATE IN HIS TESTIMONY BEFORE HIS COMMITTEE ABOUT THE
SUPPORT FROM THE PEOPLE OF KOKTOVIC. I WOULD LIKE THAT INCLUDED AS PART OF THE
RECORD.
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02:07:33
WITHOUT OBJECTION.
02:07:37
I WOULD LIKE TO ADD THE TESTIMONY OF MR. GLENN. SUPPORT THE DEVELOPMENT UP
THERE SO I WOULD LIKE TO INCLUDE THAT.
02:07:45
WITHOUT OBJECTION.
02:07:48
I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO INCLUDE THE TESTIMONY FROM OUR GOVERNOR WHO IS IN AN
INDEPENDENT, OUR LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR WHO IS A DEMOCRAT, ALASKA NATIVE, STRONG
FAVOR OF OPENING UP THE 1002 AREA. I WOULD ALSO ASK PERMISSION TO SUBMIT THE
RESOLUTION FROM THE VOICE OF THE ARCTIC, THIS IS A GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE
ASKED THAT THEIR VOICES BE HEARD AS ALASKA NATIVE PEOPLE WHO ARE SEEKING THE
OPPORTUNITY FOR JOBS AND DEVELOPMENT WHILE AT THE SAME TIME MAINTAINING THAT
WE HAVE A BALANCE THAT ALLOWS FOR SUBSTANTIVE LIFESTYLE. I WOULD ASK THAT THAT
RESOLUTION BE INCLUDED.
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02:08:27
WITHOUT OBJECTION.
02:08:30
I WOULD FURTHER ASK, MR. CHAIRMAN, WE HAVE A RESOLUTION FROM THE NORTH SLOPE
BUREAU, A LETTER FROM THE CORPORATION, MORE NORTHERN VOICES TO ADD TO THAT AS
WELL AS LETTERS SIGNED BY OUR STATE SENATORS, ALASKA REPRESENTATIVES FROM OUR
LEGISLATURE AS WELL AS ADDITIONAL LETTERS FROM NATIONAL LABOR ORGANIZATIONS
OWN SECURITY -- ENERGY SECURITY ADVOCATES AND MANY MORE. I WOULD ASK THEY BE
INCLUDED AS PART OF TODAY'S RECORD.
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02:08:58
THANK YOU. WITHOUT OBJECTION. SO THE CHAIRMAN HAS RESPONSIBILITY FOR

MAINTAINING ORDER. THE CHAIRMAN HAS RESPONSIBILITY FOR MAINTAINING ORDER
DURING COMMITTEE PROCEEDINGS. DISRUPTIONS WON'T BE TOLERATED. AUDIENCE
MEMBERS WHO CAUSE THEM WILL BE REMOVED. MR. DOGGETT YOU'RE RECOGNIZED.
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02:09:16
MR. BARTHOLD, AM I CORRECT THAT YOU WERE NOT ABLE TODAY TO DISCUSS ANY SPECIFIC
PROVISION THAT REPUBLICANS MAY HAVE AGREED UPON TO INCLUDE ULTIMATELY IN THE
CONFERENCE REPORT?
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02:09:29
MR. DOGGETT?
02:09:32
JUST YES OR NO, CAN YOU DISCUSS WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO PUT IN THE REPORT?
02:09:35
NO.
02:09:37
SO YOU CAN'T TELL US WHETHER THE $65 BILLION IN EDUCATIONAL TAX INCENTIVES THAT
WERE TERMINATED IN THE HOUSE BILL ARE THE TAX ON THE SICK, ARE THE TAX ON TAXES
ARE THE CHILD TAX CREDIT, WHETHER THAT WILL BE IN THE CONFERENCE REPORT OR NOT?
THERE WAS A TIME WHEN THE BATTLE CRY OF REPUBLICANS WAS, READ THE BILL. WELL,
THEY'VE SOLVED THAT PROBLEM TODAY BY NOT GIVING US ANY BILL TO READ AND MAKING
IT CLEAR THEY DON'T INTEND TO GIVE US ANY BILL TO READ BEFORE THIS CONFERENCE
COMMITTEE IS ENDED. INDEED, I THINK ANYONE WHO HAS WATCHED THE OPERATIONS OF
THIS COMMITTEE THIS AFTERNOON, THEY CAN SEE THE TYPE OF GOVERNMENT THAT I
BELIEVE DONALD TRUMP ENVISIONS FOR MUCH MORE THAN THIS CONFERENCE
COMMITTEE. ONE PERSON IS THE RULER AND THE OTHER ALREADY -- AND THE OTHER ARE
THE RULED. ONE PERSON CAN SAY NO AMENDMENTS, ONE PERSON CAN SAY, NO
CONSIDERATION OF ANY WITNESS TO EXPLAIN THE PROVISIONS OF THE BILL AND SO WHAT
WE WILL IS HAVE HERE AFTER THIS TRAMPLING OF DEMOCRACY IS THAT SOME TIME ON
FRIDAY A BILL THAT HAS BEEN DEVELOPED WITH THE WASHINGTON SPECIAL INTEREST IN
SECRET, IN VARIOUS PLACES ACROSS THIS CAPITAL, IT WILL BE PRESENTED AND WHILE I'M
CLEARLY UPSET THAT I AND MY COLLEAGUES WILL NOT HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO REVIEW
THAT BILL WITH CARE AND TO ASK ANY OF THOSE WHO WROTE IT WHAT'S IN IT AND WHAT
IT'S IMPACT IS IS ON THE PEOPLE THAT I REPRESENT, THE REAL CONCERN HERE IS THAT THE
AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL NOT HAVE A CHANCE TO REALLY THOROUGHLY REVIEW THAT BILL
BEFORE ITS TAKEN UP IN THE SENATE AND THE HOUSE NEXT MONDAY AND TUESDAY.
THERE'S A SENSE OF FEAR THAT PERMEATES THIS CONFERENCE COMMITTEE. YES, THERE IS A
CONCERN BY SOME OF US, THE FEAR OF WHAT IT WILL DO TO AMERICAN FAMILIES AND OUR
ECONOMY IN DRIVING UP TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF DEBT BUT THE REAL FEAR IS OVER
THERE. IT IS THE FEAR THAT IF YOU DON'T RUSH THIS THROUGH WITH NO QUESTIONS ASKED,
NO AMENDMENTS, NO NOTHING, IF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE REALLY FIND OUT WHAT IS IN
THIS BILL, THEY WILL REJECT IT AND IT WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO BECOME LAW. AND THE
ONLY REASON THEY MOVE FORWARD IN THIS HIGH HANDED MANNER WITH NO TIME, NO
OPPORTUNITY TO CONSIDER IT IS NOT ONLY BECAUSE THEIR DESPERATE TO GRASP OUT FOR
A POLITICAL LIFE PRESERVER AFTER HAVING ACCOMPLISHED NOTHING IN THIS ENTIRE YEAR
OF ANY SIGNIFICANCE, BUT BECAUSE THEY ARE DETERMINED TO FOIFT OFF THIS
MONSTROSITY, THIS OUTRAGEOUS BILL ON THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. I UNDERSTAND WHILE
WE'VE BEEN MEETING DONALD TRUMP HAS ALREADY BEEN ON TELEVISION THANKING US.
I'M SURE HE'S THANKING US FOR THE WAY --
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02:12:21
THE GENTLEMAN'S TIME IS EXPIRED AND WILL CONTINUE THIS COMMITTEE IN THIS
REGULAR ORDER.
02:12:30
I YIELD BACK.
02:12:33
REPRESENTATIVE BLACK YOU'RE RECOGNIZED.

02:12:36
THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN. MR. BARTHOLD, THIS BILL, OUR TAX CUTS AND JOB ACTS CUTS
RATES AND TO BRING THEIR CAPITAL WHICH WILL CERTAINLY ENCOURAGE MAJOR
INCREASES IN CAPITAL SPENDING TO HELP PUBLIC AND PRIVATE ENTITIES FOSTER
ECONOMIC GROWTH. MY QUESTION IS, CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT THE ORIGINAL INTENT OF
THE PRIVATE ACTIVITY BONDS ARE SINCE THIS IS MY UNDERSTANDING ONE OF THE TOOLS
THAT IS USED FOR CAPITAL IMPROVEMENTS AND IF YOU COULD GIVE US A HISTORY OF THAT
AS WE LOOK TO CHANGE THE WAY THEY CURRENTLY ARE CONSIDERED?
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02:13:16
PRIVATE ACTIVITY BONDS ORIGINALLY WERE ISSUED BY SOME STATES AS INDUSTRIAL

DEVELOPMENT BONDS IN THE MID-TO-LATE 1960S. AND IT WAS A WAY -- DEVELOPED STATES
USE THE BORROWING AUTHORITY OF THE STATES TO ISSUE A TAX EXEMPT RATES AND
RELEND THE FUNDS TO PRIVATE -- PRIVATE INVESTORS FOR A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT
CLASSES OF INVESTMENTS. THE CONGRESS BECAME CONCERNED ABOUT THE USE OF THE
TAX EXEMPTION FOR MUNICIPAL FINANCE WHICH HAD LONG BEEN FOR ROADS, SCHOOLS,
MORE PUBLIC -- MORE PUBLIC PURPOSE AND BEGAN TO PUT SOME LIMITS ON STATE ABILITY
TO ISSUE PRIVATE ACTIVITY BONDS. THE 1986 TAX REFORM ACT DEFINED A NUMBER OF
DIFFERENT CATEGORIES, A LARGE NUMBER OF THE CATEGORIES OF PRIVATE ACTIVITY
BONDS WERE PUT UNDER A UNIFIED VOLUME CAP LIMITING AT LEAST WITHIN THE CLASS OF
THOSE BONDS UNDER THE VOLUME CAP A DOLLAR AMOUNT OF BOND AUTHORITY THAT
STATES COULD ISSUE PER CAREER. -- HER YEAR. AMONG PRIVATE ACTIVITY BONDS THERE'S
STILL A FORM OF THE INDIVIDUAL INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT BOND REFERRED TO AS
SMALL ISSUE MANUFACTURING BONDS, YOU CAN ALSO ISSUE THOSE FOR FIRST-TIME
FARMERS. AND THEN THERE'S MORTGAGE REVENUE BONDS FOR FIRST-TIME HOME BUYERS.
THERE'S MULTIFAMILY HOUSING, HOUSING BONDS. THERE'S A NUMBER OF OTHER
CATEGORIES. BUT THE ESSENCE OF IT IS THAT A PRIVATE PERSON IS A SUBSTANTIAL
BENEFICIARY OF THE BENEFIT OF TAX EXEMPT FINANCE.
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02:15:14
SO ORIGINALLY IT WAS USED FOR PUBLIC INFRASTRUCTURE, SCHOOLS, HOSPITALS.

02:15:19
MR. BARTHOLD
THE GENERAL EXEMPTION UNDER SECTION 103 OF THE CODE ON STATE AND LOCAL
GOVERNMENT DEBT IS FOR GOVERNMENTAL BONDS. SO SCHOOLS, ROADS, PUBLIC
HOSPITALS, TOWN HALL AND THE LIKE.
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02:15:35
MRS. BLACK
THANK YOU, I YIELD BACK.

02:15:46
MR. BRADY
YOU'RE RECOGNIZED TO QUESTION MR. BART HOLD.

02:15:54
MR. CORNYN
ARE YOU AWARE THE -- OF THE GROWTH.

02:16:01
MR. BARTHOLD
THAT'S THE BASELINE ON WHICH WE BASE OUR ESTIMATES.

02:16:08
MR. CORNYN
ARE YOU AWARE SINCE WORLD WAR II THE U.S. ECONOMY HAS GROWN ROUGHLY AN
AVERAGE OF 3.2%?
02:16:16
MR. BARTHOLD
I'M NOT POSITIVE ON THE 3.2% BUT IT HAS GROWN CLOSER TO 3%.
02:16:24
MR. CORNYN
WHAT DO YOU THINK THE EFFECT OF THE SENATE BILL WILL BE ON STIMULATING GROWTH
IN THE AMERICAN ECONOMY ABOVE THE 1.9% ANEMIC ECONOMIC PROJECTION BY THE
C.B.O.? BIP AS REQUIRED UNDER THE CONCURRENT BUDGET RESOLUTION, MY COLLEAGUES
PREPARED A MACROECONOMIC ANALYSIS OF THE BILL AS REPORTED BY THE FINANCE
COMMITTEE. THAT'S NOT -- THERE WERE SOME SUBSTANTIAL CHANGES MADE BY
AMENDMENT ON THE SENATE FLOOR BUT WE REPORTED THAT THE BILL AS REPORTED BY
THE FINANCE COMMITTEE WOULD INCREASE THE LEVEL OF GROSS DOMESTIC PRODUCT
RELATIVE BASELINE FORECAST BY .8% AS I NOTED EARLIER IN A RESPONSE TO CHAIRMAN
BRADY. THAT'S WORTH ON A GIVEN YEAR RELATIVE TO OUR CURRENT LEVEL OF G.D.P. $140
BILLION OF ADDITIONAL NATIONAL INCOME.
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02:17:23
MR. CORNYN
SO WHILE WE CAN QUIBBLE ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF GROWTH OR RATE OF GROWTH , IN

YOUR OPINION THIS SENATE TAX BILL WILL GENERATE ADDITIONAL ECONOMIC GROWTH?
02:17:32
MR. BARTHOLD
THAT'S THE ANALYSIS OF OUR MACROECONOMIC MODELING, YES, SIR.

02:17:39
MR. CORNYN
FOR OUR FRIENDS WHO ARE DEFICIT HAWKS, WHICH I'M PROUD TO BE ONE BUT I DO BELIEVE
THIS TAX BILL WILL HELP STIMULATE ECONOMIC RECOVERY THAT WILL MORE THAN OFFSET
ANY DEFICIT, THEY SHOULD BE REASSURED OR AT LEAST YOU WOULD REASSURE THEM
THAT WHILE WE CAN QUIBBLE ABOUT THE AMOUNT THERE WILL BE IN YOUR OPINION
ECONOMIC GROWTH GENERATED BY THE SENATE TAX BILL?
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02:18:07
MR. BARTHOLD
YES, SIR.
02:18:08
MR. CORNYN
WHEN I GOT TO THE SENATE, WE HAD A WISE SENATOR BY THE NAME OF BOB BENNETT WHO
-- FROM UTAH, WHO TOLD ME THAT, HE SAID, ONE THING I CAN TELL YOU ABOUT C.B.O.
ESTIMATES IS THEY'RE ALWAYS WRONG. I CAN'T TELL YOU WHETHER THEY'RE TOO HIGH OR
TOO LOW, AND I GUESS THE DIFFICULTY IS HERE TRYING TO PROJECT WHAT WILL BE THE
COMBINED IMPACT OF THE ROLLBACK AND OVERREGULATION, WHAT WILL BE THE IMPACT
OF CONSUMER CONFIDENCE WHICH IS AT A 16-YEAR HIGH, COUPLED WITH THE TAX
PROVISIONS HERE.
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02:18:45
MR. BRADY
THE GENTLEMAN'S TIME HAS EXPIRE. REPRESENTATIVE NOEM, YOU'RE RECOGNIZED TO

QUESTION MR. BARTHOLD.
02:18:54
MRS. NOEM
MR. BARTHOLD, I APPRECIATE ALL THE WORK YOU AND YOUR STAFF HAVE PUT IN. I WANT TO
ASK YOU ABOUT SOME ASSUMPTIONS YOU MADE IN YOUR MACROECONOMIC ANALYSIS
THAT YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUES ON J.C.T. RELEASED MONDAY. IN THAT ANALYSIS YOU
RAISED THE POSSIBILITY THAT TAXPAYERS COULD HAVE A SPECIFIC DOLLAR AMOUNT TO
LEAVE TO THEIR HEIRS AND REPEALING THE DEATH TAX COULD ALLOW THEM TO REACH
THAT TARGET EARLIER, REDUCING THEIR INCENTIVE TO WORK. COULD YOU EXPLAIN WHY
YOU MADE THAT ASSUMPTION? BECAUSE I'M NOT ALONE IN PEOPLE IN THIS ROOM THAT
HEARD THAT HIGHER TAX RATES COULD DISINCENTIVIZE WORK BUT I NEVER HEARD OF
DISINCENTIVIZING WORK BY ELIMINATING A TAX.
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02:19:48
MR. BARTHOLD
J.C.R. 66, THE REPORT YOU'RE REFERRING TO, THERE'S SOME EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE, THE
MOTIVATIONS BEHIND SAVING WEALTH ACCUMULATION AMONG DIFFERENT PEOPLE. SOME
PEOPLE ARE REFERRED TO AND SEEM TO SHOW UP IMPIRCALLY IN THE DATA AS TARGET
SAVERS. THEY MAY HAVE A PARTICULAR GOAL THAT THEY'RE TRYING TO EXCEED FOR
WHATEVER REASON AND THEY CAN SLOW THEIR RATE OF ACCUMULATION IN RESPONSE TO
A HIGHER AFTER TAX --
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02:20:29
MRS. NOEM
CAN YOU GIVE ME A DESCRIPTION OF WHAT THAT DEMOGRAPHIC WOULD BE. I'VE BEEN A
FARMER MY WHOLE LIFE, I DON'T KNOW A FARMER WHO WOULD QUIT MID HARVEST WAS
THEY REACHED THEIR THRESHOLD, OR A SMALL BUSINESS OWNER THAT WOULD QUIT
TAKING ORDERS BECAUSE THEY REACHED WHERE THEY WANT TO BE IN LIFE. WHAT
DEMOGRAPHIC WOULD JUST QUIT WHEN THEY REACH A THRESHOLD?
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02:20:54
MR. BARTHOLD
IN LABOR SUPPLY, SOMETIMES PEOPLE RETIRE EARLIER WHEN THEY REACH A CERTAIN
ACCUMULATION IN RETIREMENT ASSETS. IF THEY THINK, IF I HAVE X THOUSANDS OF
DOLLARS, FROM WHICH I CAN BUY AN ANNUITY THAT WILL PAY ME A STREAM OF INCOME
OVER A PERIOD OF YEARS AND IF THEY HIT THAT X EARLIER, THEY MAY CHOOSE TO RETIRE
EARLIER. OBVIOUSLY IT'S NOT THE CASE WITH YOUR CONSTITUENTS AND WE ARE NOT
TRYING TO SUGGEST IN THE REPORT THAT THAT WAS UNIFORM BEHAVIOR, IT'S JUST THAT
THERE'S A WHOLE MIX OF BEHAVIORS AND IT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MAKES IT
DIFFICULT TO ASSESS TAXPAYER BEHAVIOR WHEN YOU TRY TO ANALYZE LEGISLATION.
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02:21:37
MRS. NOEM
IN THAT ANALYSIS, BUZZ THE ASSUMPTION MADE IF THE ESTATE TAX WAS FULLY REPEALED
IT WOULD DISINCENTIVIZE WORK?
02:21:47
MR. BARTHOLD
WE DID NOT MAKE THAT ASSUMPTION AT ALL.

02:21:50
MRS. NOEM
I'M OUT OF TIME. I YIELD BACK.

02:21:56
MR. BRADY
REPRESENTATIVE, YOU'RE RECOGNIZED TO QUESTION MR. BARTHOLD.

02:22:14
MR. GRIJALVA
IT SEEMS THINGS ARE EXISTING IN A PARALLEL UNIVERSE WHERE THE DEAL HAS ALREADY
BEEN CUT AND IS THE DEAL RIGGED AND HERE WE ARE. PARDON ME IF I DON'T ASK YOU ANY
QUESTIONS BECAUSE THE RELEVANCY OF THE QUESTIONS I HAVE HAS TO BE TO THE
PACKAGE AND MAKING THE CASE FOR HIGHER EDUCATION AND THE $64 BILLION BEING CUT
FROM THAT, MAKING THE CASE ON THE PETTY REPEAL OF THE $250 FOR TEACHERERS WHO
BUY SCHOOL SUPPLIES. APPRECIATE YOUR TIME. I THINK THAT WHAT WE'RE SEING HERE
TODAY IS WHAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE BEEN CONCERNED ABOUT. THIS DEAL IS --
THESE TAX CUTS, IT'S NOT REFORM. IT'S BEEN DONE IN SECRET. IT HAS NOT BEEN INCLUSIVE.
THERE'S BEEN LIMITED TRANSPARENCY. AND HERE WE ARE ON THE EVE OF VOTES THAT ARE
GOING TO HAPPEN IN BOTH THE HOUSE AND SENATE, SITTING HERE ASKING QUESTIONS
OVER DOCUMENTS THAT HAVE NOT BEEN -- THAT HAVE NOW BEEN MERGED AND A DEAL HAS
BEEN CUT AND NONE OF US AT THE TABLE ARE ABLE TO REVIEW OR ASK THE WITNESS THE
QUESTIONS WE SHOULD ASK BASED ON WHAT THE DEAL IS IN TERMS OF THE ARCTIC
REFUGE, THE NATIONAL PETROLEUM RESERVE, THE COMPANIES THAT -- LAST WEEK OR TWO
WEEKS AGO, THEY WEREN'T WILLING TO BID THAT MUCH FOR ILL GAS LEASES ON THE
SLOPE. 10 MILLION ACRES WERE OFFERED, ONLY $1.2 MILLION WERE RAISED DESPITE
HAVING MORE INFRASTRUCTURE IN THAT AREA, MORE OIL FIELDS, LOWER ROYALTY RATE
THAN THE ARCTIC REFUGE. I'VE ASKED THE CONGRESSIONAL BUDGET OFFICE TO FACTOR
THE NEW DATA INTO THE SCORE. SINCE WE'RE USING POTENTIAL DRILLING THERE THAT'S
GOING TO GENERATE BILLIONS OVER THE NEXT 10 YEARS TO OFFSET TAX CUTS IN THIS
LEGISLATION, I SAID AT THE VERY MINIMUM IF WE'RE GOING TOIN COLLUDE THIS IN THIS
TAX PACKAGE, THE ARCTIC REFUGE, WE SHOULD BE DEALING WITH THE SAME SET OF FACT
BUS TO COMMIT TO AN OFFSET THAT DOES NOT EXIST THAT COULD BE MEANINGLESS AT THE
END I THINK IS A REAL MISTAKE AND IF IT'S SO IMPORTANT, LET'S DEAL WITH IT SEPARATE
AND DISTINCT AND THROUGH REGULAR ORDER IN THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE IF THAT'S
NECESSARY. I HAVE NO MORE QUESTIONS, MR. CHAIRMAN. I YIELD BACK.
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02:24:50
MR. BRADY
THE GENTLEMAN YIELDS BACK. SENATOR THUNE, YOU'RE RECOGNIZED.

02:24:53
MR. THUNE
LET ME FINISH WHERE I LEFT OFF A MOMENT EARLIER. THERE WAS AN ARGUMENT MADE
THAT REPUBLICANS SHOULD GET FOUR PINOCCHIOS FOR SAYING THIS WOULD REDUCE
TAXES ON MIDDLE INCOMES TAXPAYERS. WE HAVE SEVERAL DWHOMSE GOT UP AND MADE
PUBLIC STATEMENTS, OR SOCIAL MEDIA PLAT FORMS, SAID THAT FAMILIES MAKING LESS
THAN $86,100 ON AVERAGE WOULD FACE A HEFTY TAX HIKE. THIS IS ACCORDING TO "THE
WASHINGTON POST" FACT CHECKER. ACTUALLY, IT'S THE OPPOSITE. MOST FAMILIES IN THAT
INCOME RANGE WOULD GET A TAX CUT. ANY DEMOCRAT WHO SPREAD THIS CLAIM SHOULD
DELETE THEIR TWEETS AND MAKE CLEAR THEY WERE IN ERROR. AND THEY GOT FOUR
PINOCCHIOS FOR MAKING THAT STATEMENT. QUESTION FOR MR. BARTHOLD, MR. BARTHOLD
IF YOU DOUBLE THE STANDARD DEDUCTION IF YOU DOUBLE THE CHILD TAX CREDIT, AND IF
YOU LOWER RATES PRETTY MUCH ACROSS -- THROUGH THE DIFFERENT INCOME GROUPS,
WHAT INCOME GROUPS WOULD BENEFIT FROM THOSE TYPES OF CHANGES IN TAX LAW?
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02:26:01
MR. BARTHOLD
IF YOU -- IN DOUBLING THE STANDARD DEDUCTION, YOU'RE CREATING A ZERO BRACKET. SO

FOR -- UNDER THE SENATE LEGISLATION, DOUBLING TAKES IT FOR JOINT FILERS TO $24,000,
THAT'S $24,000 INCOME, NO TAX. IF THEY HAVE CHILDREN WITH THE $2,000 CHILD TAX
CREDIT, THERE'S FOR ONE CHILD, THAT'S $2,000 WORTH OF TAX THAT CAN'T BE JUSTIFY SET,
GET $2,000 WORTH OF TAX THEY'D HAVE TO HAVE INCOME OF $20,000 WITHIN THE 10%
BRACKET. SO FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE EXAMPLE THAT WE'RE CREATING, $40,000 WORTH OF
INCOME WOULD BE TAX FREE FOR THAT HOUSEHOLD.
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02:26:55
MR. THUNE
WOULD THERE BE A NUMB OF TAXPAYERS WHO CURRENTLY HAVE TAX LIABILITY THAT
UNDER THESE PROPOSALS WOULD NO LONGER HAVE LIABILITY? WOULD IT TAKE SOME
PEOPLE COMPLETELY OFF THE TAX ROLL?
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02:27:05
MR. BARTHOLD
YES, IT WOULD.
02:27:08
MR. THUNE
SO THAT'S GOING TO HELP PEOPLE IN THE LOWER INCOME CATEGORIES. IT STRIKES ME THAT
A LOFT ATTACKS MADE BY OUR COLLEAGUES ON THE OTHER SIDE, BOTH IN THE SENATE AND
THE HOUSE, ON THESE BILL THEY CAN KEEP SAYING IT BUT IT DOESN'T MAKE IT SO. IT
DOESN'T ADD UP. THE FACTS AREN'T THERE. ONE FINAL POINT, WHAT DO I HAVE LEFT, MR.
CHAIRMAN? ALL RIGHT, I'LL SUMMARIZE THIS. I'M LOOKING AT ONE OF THE DISTRIBUTION
CHARTS THAT YOU DID FOR US AND IT'S D-1756. BASICALLY WHAT IT POINTS OUT IS AFTER
THIS ALL TAKES EFFECT, THE BURDEN OF TAXATION IS VERY SIMILAR TO WHAT IT IS TODAY
THROUGH EVERY INCOME GROUP WITH ONE VERY NOTABLE EXCEPTION. AND THAT IS THAT
PEOPLE OVER $1 MILLION WILL PAY SIGNIFICANTLY MORE THAN THEY DO TODAY UNDER
CURRENT LAW. MR. CHAIRMAN, I YIELD BACK.
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02:27:54
MR. BRADY
THANK YOU, SENATOR. SENATOR CANTWELL, YOU'RE RECOGNIZED. MS. CANTWELL: BASE
EROSION ANTI-ABUSE TAX AS IT RELATES TO PREVENTING FOREIGN OWNED COMPANIES
FROM SHIFTING INCOME ABROAD, SO ARE YOU ARGUING THAT DOESN'T IMPACT THE LOW
INCOME HOUSING TAX CREDIT?
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02:28:17
MR. BARTHOLD
I MADE NO STATEMENT ABOUT THAT IN MY SUMMARY. IF YOUR QUESTION IS WOULD IT

AFFECT THE LOW INCOME TO HOUSING TAX CREDIT, IF A TAXPAYER WOULD POTENTIALLY BE
-- COULD POTENTIALLY BE SUBJECT TO BASE EROSION ANTI-ABUSE TAX, IF THEY CURRENTLY
BENEFIT FROM OWNING LOW INCOME HOUSING TAX CREDIT PROPERTIES, THE EFFECT OF
THE TAX WOULD BE TO REDUCE THE BENEFIT FROM THOSE CREDITS.
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02:28:51
MS. CANTWELL
OBVIOUSLY PEOPLE ARE PUTTING A FIX IN HERE FOR THE R&D TAX CREDIT, SO THEY DO
THINK IT AFFECTS, SO WHY NOT TREAT THE LOW INCOME HOUSING TAX CREDIT THE SAME
WAY.
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02:29:02
MR. BARTHOLD
THE SENATE AS YOU KNOW, THE SENATE LEGISLATION DID PROVIDE THAT RESEARCH CREDIT
UNDER SECTION 41 WOULD ESSENTIALLY BE EXEMPTED FROM THE BASE EROSION ANTI-
ABUSE TAX. IT WOULD BE WITHIN THE CONFERENCE, OF COURSE, FOR THE CONFEREES TO
MAKE A SIMILAR SORT OF ADJUSTMENT IF THEY THOUGHT IT WAS WARRANTED FOR OTHER
CREDITS UNDER SECTION 45, UNDER SECTION 42.
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02:29:29
MS. CANTWELL
MY POINT IS IT DOES AFFECT IT AND WE WANT NOT HAVE A NEGATIVE IMPACT. MY OPENING
STATEMENT WAS ABOUT INSTEAD OF SEEKING THE 50% INCREASE I THINK WE NEED TO DEAL
WITH HE HOUSING CRISIS IN AMERICA TO DEAL WITH AFFORDABILITY, WE'RE TAKING OUT OF
THE CURRENT RUN RATE A 50% DECREASE WHICH I THINK IS WRONG. I'M SURE YOU CAN'T
ANSWER THIS QUESTION BUT I DO FIND IT INTERESTING THAT SOME PEOPLE HAVE BEEN
ABLE TO GO ONLINE AND HEAR WHAT THE SCUTTLE IS FROM DOWNTOWN LOBBYISTS AND
THEN PROPOSE A CHART. YOU DON'T HAVE A CHART. IF I ASKED YOU ABOUT THIS CHART YOU
WON'T BE ABLE TO ANSWER ME BECAUSE YOU'LL SAY, I DON'T KNOW, I DON'T KNOW WHAT
THIS PROPEZAL IS. BUT PEOPLE ARE ALREADY TAKING THE CURRENT ASSUMPTIONS THAT
ARE CIRCULATING ALL OVER THE INTERNET TODAY AND STILL HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS
OF PEOPLE OF MIDDLE CLASS FAMILIES IN MY STATE WILL PAY HIGHER TAXES. THAT IS NOT
OUR IDEA OF TAX REFORM. THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN.
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02:30:24
MR. BRADY
THANK YOU.
02:30:26
I'D LIKE TO ASK UNANIMOUS CONSENT TO SUBMIT FOR THE RECORD A LETTER FROM THE
ENERGY AND COMMERCE COMMITTEE DEMOCRATS THAT ADVOCATES FOR BROADENING
CLEAN ENERGY TAX CREDITS AND OPPOSES THE RATE ON THE STRATEGIC PETROLEUM
RESERVE.
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02:30:46
MR. BRADY
WITHOUT OBJECTION.
02:30:48
MS. CASTOR
THE CURRENT TAX CODE PROVIDES SOME SUPPORT TO STUDENTS AND FAMILIES TO ATTEND
COMMUNITY COLLEGE OR OBTAIN A HIGHER EDUCATION, TRY TO MAKE IT MORE
AFFORDABLE. IS THAT CORRECT?
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02:31:00
MR. BARTHOLD
THAT'S CORRECT. THERE'S THE HOPE CREDIT, THERE'S THE LIFETIME LEARNING CREDIT.
02:31:07
MS. CASTOR
THE AMERICAN OPPORTUNITY, WHAT IS IN THAT.

02:31:11
MR. BARTHOLD
THERE'S -- IT'S PARTIALLY REFUNDABLE, IT'S A CREDIT AGAINST TUITION.

02:31:18
MS. CASTOR
HOW MUCH? MR. BARTHOLD: $2,500.

02:31:23
BARTHOLD MS.
THAT WAS ELIMINATED IN THE REPUBLICAN TAX BILL IS THAT CORRECT?

02:31:26
MR. BARTHOLD
NO, WELL, ONE IN THE SENATE BILL THERE'S NO CHANGE, IN THE HOUSE BILL KEEPS THE
AMERICAN OPPORTUNITY TAX CREDIT ERIC LIMB NATES THE LIFETIME LEARNING CREDIT.
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02:31:38
MS. CASTOR
WHAT'S THE LIFETIME LEARNING CREDIT?

02:31:45
MR. BARTHOLD
A MAXIMUM CREDIT OF $2,000 BASED ON EXPENSES UP TO $10,000.

02:31:51
MS. CASTOR
THAT'S ELIMINATED IN THE HOUSE BILL. AND THEN THE HOUSE REPUBLICAN BILL ALSO
REPEALS THE VERY MODEST BENEFIT FOR STUDENTS AND FAMILIES THAT HAVE STUDENT
LOAN DEBT IS THAT CORRECT?
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02:32:06
MR. BARTHOLD
REPEALS THE DEDUCTIBILITY OF INTEREST ON THE STUDENT LOAN DEBT.

02:32:11
MS. CASTOR
AND THE HOUSE REPUBLICAN BILL ALSO, I DON'T KNOW WHY SOMEONE THOUGHT THIS WAS
ONE TO GO AND TARGET OUR GRADUATE STUDENTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY, THE FOLKS WHO
ARE TEACHING AND DOING RESEARCH AND REALLY HELP TO GIVE AMERICA A COMPETITIVE
EDGE, ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
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02:32:27
MR. BARTHOLD
YES.
02:32:29
MS. CASTOR
COLLEAGUES, THIS IS VERY UNWISE. TO UNDERMINE OUR OWN INTERESTS. YOU KNOW,
AMERICA'S COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES ARE THE ENVY OF THE WORLD. AND WE SHOULD
BE DOING EVERYTHING IN OUR POWER TO SUPPORT THEM. 10 I'M GOING TO OFFER A MOTION
AT THIS TIME THAT THE CONFERENCE NOT VOTE TO APPROVE THE CONFERENCE REPORT
UNTIL THE J.C.T. PROVIDES A CERTIFICATION THAT THE COST OF ATTENDING COLLEGE OR
GARAGE CAT WATT SCHOOL OR THE COST OF OBTAINING A COLLEGE DEGREE OR GRADUATE
DEGREE IS NOT INCREASED BY REASON OF REPEAL OR MODIFICATION OF EDUCATION
PROVISIONS IN THE TAX CODE, INCLUDE BUG NOT LIMITED TO REPEAL OF THE LIFETIME
LEARNING CREDIT, REDUCKSES IN THE AMERICAN OPPORTUNITY TAX CREDIT IN ANY YEAR
IT'S AVAILABLE TO A TAXPAYER, REPEAL OF DEDUCTIONS FOR INTEREST PAID ON STUDENT
LOANS AND TUITION FEES, REPEAL OF THE EXCLUSIONS FOR TUITION REDUCTIONS RELATED
TO EMPLOYMENT AT AN INSTITUTION OF HIGHER EDUCATION, INTEREST ON UNITED STATES
SAVINGS BONDS USED TO PAY FOR TUITION AND EMPLOYER --
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02:33:32
MR. BRADY
THE GENTLELADY'S TIME HAS EXPIRED, THE MOTION IS NOT AVAILABLE. SENATOR
STABENOW, YOU'RE RECOGNIZED.
02:33:42
MS. STABENOW
THANK YOU, MR. BARTHOLD, TO YOU AND YOUR STAFF FOR ALL YOUR WORK IN THE MIDST
OF A LOT OF COMPLEXITY AND CONFUSION, I WOULD THINK. IS IT ACCURATE TO SAY UNDER
THE HOUSE AND SENATE BILLS MILLIONS OF WORKING FAMILIES WITH INCOMES UNDER
$200,000 A YEAR WOULD GET A TAX INCREASE?
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02:34:02
MR. BARTHOLD
IF I COULD JUST ELABORATE BRIEFLY THERE'S SUBSTANTIAL CHANGES AS WE DESCRIBED,

DEPENDING UPON THE TAXPAYER'S SITUATION THERE WILL BE SOME -- WE HAVE DOCUMENT
AND REDOCUMENTED FOR YOU DURING THE FINANCE COMMITTEE'S DELIBERATION THAT
THERE WILL BE A FAIR NUMBER OF CASES WHERE TAX LIABILITIES INCREASE.
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02:34:26
MS. STABENOW
ACCORDING TO YOUR NUMBERS THAT WE HAVE, IT'S CALCULATED 32.48 MILLION FAMILIES
WITH INCOMES UNDER $200,000 END UP WITH A TAX INCREASE UNDER THE HOUSE BILL AND
37.79 MILLION FAMILIES WITH INCOMES UNDER $200,000 END UP WITH A TAX INCREASE
UNDER THE SENATE BILL, ACCORDING TO YOUR NUMBERS. HOW MANY WORKING FAMILIES
WITH INCOMES UNDER $200,000 WOULD RECEIVE A TAX INCREASE UNDER EITHER THE HOUSE
OR THE SENATE BILL FOR 2019?
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02:35:04
MR. BARTHOLD
I'LL HAVE TO GET BACK TO YOU ON THAT.

02:35:08
MS. STABENOW
ACCORDING TO THE NUMBERS THAT YOU HAVE GIVEN US, IT'S 12.7 MILLION HOUSEHOLDS
UNDER THE HOUSE BILL AND 12.93 MILLION UNDER THE SENATE BILL BY 2019.
02:35:22
MR. BARTHOLD
I'LL VERIFY THAT.

02:35:25
MS. STABENOW
I APPRECIATE THAT. BASED ON YOUR ANALYSIS OF THE SENATE BILL IS IT CORRECT TO SAY
THAT 84.1% OF AMERICANS WOULD SEE VIRTUALLY NO CHANGE IN THEIR TAX LIABILITY OR
A TAX INCREASE OF AT LEAST $100 IN 2027?
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02:35:47
MR. BARTHOLD
THE SENATE BILL? THE FINANCE COMMITTEE BILL IN 20 27. WE ESTIMATED THAT SLIGHTLY
OVER 60% OF ALL TAX FILING UNITS WOULD HAVE A TAX CHANGE OF LESS THAN $100 EITHER
PLUS OR MINUS.
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02:36:11
MS. STABENOW
I ASKED YOU THIS SAME QUESTION IN THE SENATE COMMITTEE IN THE MARKUP BUT I WANT
TO ASK AGAIN HERE. THE ADMINISTRATION PROMISED THE AVERAGE FAMILY WOULD GET AT
LEAST A $4,000 ANNUAL RAISE, IF THIS LEGISLATION IS ENACTED INTO LAW. IS THERE
ANYTHING IN THE HOUSE OR SENATE BILL THAT WOULD END THE CORPORATE TAX
GIVEAWAYS IF THIS TURNS OUT NOT TO BE TRUE?
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02:36:39
MR. BRADY
THE GENTLELADY'S TIME HAS EXPIRED.

02:36:42
MR. BARTHOLD
THERE WAS NO TRIGGER.

02:36:47
MR. BRADY
SENATOR PARTMAN, YOU'RE RECOGNIZED.

02:36:49
MR. PORTMAN
MY COLLEAGUE AND FRIEND FROM MICHIGAN WAS ASKING ABOUT THE EFFECTS OF THE TAX
CUTS TO THE MIDDLE CLASS SO MR. BARTHOLD, SHE ASKED ABOUT 2019. LET'S GO TO YOUR
FORM, LET'S GO TO YOUR JOINT COMMITTEE ON TAXATION DISTRIBUTIONAL TABLE THAT
ANYONE CAN FIND ON JCT.GOV, GIVE YOU A LITTLE ADVERTISEMENT THERE. LET'S GO TO
JCX-60-17, FOR 2019, THE SAME YEAR JUST ASKED ABOUT. I'M LOOKING AT 10 DIFFERENT
GRUCHESE TAXPAYERS, COHORTS OF TAXPAYERS, LESS THAN $10,000 UP TO $1 MILLION OR
OVER. SO FOR INSTANCE, $30,000 TO $40,000. AND SO ON. I'M LOOKING AT THIS FORM, I'M
WONDERING HOW COULD WHAT WE JUST HEARD BE TRUE? BECAUSE THIS SHOWS THAT
THERE IS TAX RELIEF IN EACH OF THOSE GROUPS, RIGHT?
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02:37:41
MR. BARTHOLD
THAT'S CRENTH, SIR. AGGREGATE TAX REDUCTION IN EVERY INCOME CATEGORY.

02:37:49
MR. PORTMAN
ON AVERAGE IN EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE GROUPS YOU'RE SEEING TAX RELIEF. IT IS, YOU
KNOW, 9.7% DECREASE IN TAXES FOR FOLKS MAKING BETWEEN $30,000 AND $40,000. PEOPLE
BETWEEN $100,000 AND $200,000 IT'S 6.8%. IT TENDS TO BE A HIGHER NUMBER TOWARD THE
LOWER BRACKETS. BUT THAT'S ON YOUR WEBSITE. THAT'S THE INFORMATION. SO THAT
MEANS THERE IS TAX RELIEF FOR THESE INDIVIDUALS THAT WE REPRESENT. IS THAT
CORRECT?
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02:38:23
MR. BARTHOLD
IN AGGREGATE YES, AND ON AVERAGE.

02:38:27
MR. PORTMAN
AND FOR THE MAJORITY OF THOSE PEOPLE, CORRECT?

02:38:30
MR. BARTHOLD
YES.
02:38:35
MR. PORTMAN
AND IN TERMS OF PEOPLE BECAUSE OF DOUBLING THE STANDARD DEDUCTION, IT'S LIKE A
ZERO TAX BRACKET FOR $24,000 A FAMILY BY DOUBLING IT, AREN'T THERE PEOPLE THAT
FALL OFF THE TAX ROLLS ALL-TOGETHER, PEOPLE WHO WON'T HAVE ANY TAX LIABILITY
WHO HAVE IT NOW? I SENT YOU A LETTER BACK IN OCTOBER YOU SAID 3.1 MILLION
TAXPAYER WOULD HAVE NO TAX LIABILITY WHO HAVE TAX LIABILITY NOW. THREE MILLION
AMERICANS WHO ARE CURRENTLY HAVING TO PAY UNCLE SAM AND WORKING HARD. MOST
OF THESE ARE FOLKS WHO ARE WORKING, WHO HAVE TAX LIABILITY, DESPITE EARNED
INCOME TAX CREDIT AND OTHER THINGS, UNDER THIS THEY'LL HAVE NO TAX LIABILITY.
BASED ON A DOUBLING OF THE STANDARD DEDUCTION BUT THE CHILD CREDIT UP TO TO
$1,500, SO I WOULD THINK DOUBLING THE CHILD TAX CREDIT I WOULD GUESS EVEN MORE
PEOPLE WOULD HAVE NO TAX LIABILITY.
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02:39:32
MR. BARTHOLD
THAT'S CORRECT. ALSO ANOTHER FACTOR IS WHEN YOU AND I SPOKE ABOUT THIS IN
OCTOBER, WE DID NOT HAVE A 10% BRACKET WHICH INCREASES.
02:39:44
MR. PORTMAN
SO MORE THAN THREE MILLION PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE ANY TAX LIABILITY AT
ALL. I WOULD ENCOURAGE FOLKS TO GO SEE THE GREAT WEBSITE AT JCT.GOV.
02:39:56
MR. BRADY
THE GENTLEMAN'S TIME AND ADVERTISEMENT HAS EXPIRED. SENATOR MENENDEZ.

02:40:03
MR. MENENDEZ
LOOKING AT YOUR DISTRIBUTIONAL CHART IT'S FAIR TO SAY PEOPLE MAKING HALF A
MILLION TO $1 MILLION, 91%, WOULD SEE GREATER THAN $500. CORRECT?
02:40:27
MR. BARTHOLD
IN THE SENATE AND FINANCE REPORTED BILL FOR 2019, $500 MILLION -- YES.
02:40:43
MR. MENENDEZ
AND 80% WOULD SEE A DECREASE. AND FOR THOSE IN THE LESS THAN $10,000, 95.8% WOULD
SEE NO TAX CHANGE FOR THEM OR LESS THAN $100.
02:40:52
MR. BARTHOLD
THAT'S CORRECT.
02:40:56
MR. MENENDEZ
WITH REFERENCE TO YOUR COMPARISON OF REVENUE PROVISIONS, ON PAGE 5, THE

REDUCTION IN THE CORPORATE TAX RATE TO 20% IN 2018 TO 2017, YOU HAVE LISTED AS $1,456
BILLION, CORRECT?
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02:41:12
MR. BARTHOLD
FOR THE HOUSE. THE SENATE HAS A DELAYED EFFECT I HAVE DATE.
02:41:17
MR. MENENDEZ
AND THE SAME PROVISIONS ON PAGE 11, THE NET TOTAL COST AS $1,445 BILLION IS THAT
CORRECT? SO BASICALLY THE NET COST OF THE $1.4 TRILLION THAT'S LOST IS LARGELY
GOING TO CORPORATIONS. NOW LET ME ASK YOU THIS. I HEARD ABOUT GROWTH BEFORE
BUT I THINK IT'S A LITTLE BIT -- A LITTLE DISINGENUOUS. JCTO BASICALLY SAYS THE BILL
INCREASES GROLTE BY JUST .8 OVER 10 YEARS. IS THAT CORRECT?
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02:41:59
MR. BARTHOLD
THAT'S NOT WHAT WE REPORT THE AVERAGE VALUE OF GROSS DOMESTIC PRODUCT. BUT THE
--
02:42:11
MR. MENENDEZ
BUT IT'S STILL .8 OVER 10 YEARS.

02:42:15
MR. BARTHOLD
IT'S THE AVERAGE ANNUAL, IT'S A STATEMENT ABOUT THE LEVEL NOT THE GROWTH RATE.
02:42:25
I MR. MENENDEZ
I WOULD HAVE TO DIVIDE THAT BY 10 YEARS?

02:42:30
MR. BARTHOLD
I TRIED TO PUT IT IN DOLLARS, IN TERMS OF REAL DOLLARS, BENEFIT ANNUALLY OF ABOUT

$140 BILLION.
02:42:41
MR. MENENDEZ
DOES THE HOUSE AND SENATE BILL PRESERVE STATE AND LOCAL DEDUCTION FOR
CORPORATIONS?
02:42:49
MR. ARTHOLD
STATE AND LOCAL TAXES ARE DEDUCTIBLE AS BUSINESS CORPORATIONS.

02:42:53
MR. MENENDEZ
DOES IT PRESERVE THOSE WITH FAMILIES? BIP WITH RESPECT TO PROPERTY TAXES BUT NOT
SALES OR INCOME TAXES.
02:43:03
MR. MENENDEZ
BUT IT DOESN'T CAP -- IT CAPS IT, DOESN'T PRESERVE IT.

02:43:12
MR. BRADY
THE GENTLEMAN'S TIME HAS EXPIRED. MR. SHIM DUSS IS RECOGNIZED.

02:43:17
MR. SHIMKUS
I'M AN ENERGY AND COMMERCE GUY, I TREAD CAREFULLY ON TAXES. BUT YOU'VE HEARD
MY OPENING STATEMENT WHERE I TALK ABOUT CURRENTLY 80% OF MY INDIVIDUALS FILE
THEY DON'T ITEMIZE. SO WHAT IS IT ABOUT DOUBLING THE PERSONAL EXEMPTION THAT
RAISES THAT AMOUNT PROJECTED TO BE 90%?
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02:43:37
MR. BARTHOLD
IT'S NOT THE PERSONAL EXEMPTION, IT'S THE STANDARD DEDUCTION.

02:43:42
MR. SHIMKUS
I CAN'T EVEN SAY IT RIGHT.

02:43:45
MR. BARTHOLD
STANDARD DEDUCTION IS ESSENTIALLY CREATING -- PEOPLE CHOOSE THE STANDARD

DEDUCTION WHEN IT GIVES THEM A BIGGER REDUCTION THAN THEIR ITEMIZED DEDUCTION.
SO RIGHT NOW A MARRIED COUPLE'S STANDARD DEDUCTION IS A LITTLE OVER $12,000. IF
THEY HAD MORTGAGE INTEREST, CHARITABLE DEDUCTIONS, ILLINOIS INCOME TAX, AND
AND THAT TOTAL TO AROUND $18,000, THEY WOULD ELECT TO ITEMIZE. IF YOU DOUBLE THE
STANDARD DEDUCTION, YOU WOULD NOT CHOOSE THE 18,000.
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02:44:32
MY COLLEAGUES UNDER A STATE -- UNDERESTIMATE THE VALUE OF SIMPLICITY. HOW MANY

PEOPLE USE AN ACCOUNT TO FILE THEIR RETURNS?
02:44:46
WE DO KNOW THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT FILE ELECTRONICALLY OR WITH PAID

PREPARERS. I CAN PROVIDE THAT INFORMATION.
02:44:57
IS THERE ANY WAY THAT WE KNOW KIND OF THE AVERAGE COST?

02:45:06
I HAVE SEEN ESTIMATES. I DO NOT HAVE THEM AVAILABLE RIGHT NOW. .

02:45:12
.
RIGHT NOW. . >> HAS THERE BEEN ANY COMPUTATION OF INDIVIDUALS WHO FILE USING AN
ACCOUNTANT, NOT KNOWING IF THEY WILL BE CALLED INTO AN IRS TRIBUNAL, TO THEN
GET AUDITED? IS THERE A CALCULATION OF LOST TIME AND WAGES WHEN THEY HAVE TO
TAKE A DAY OFF OF WORK?
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02:45:57
THERE ARE SOME STUDIES I CAN TRY AND PROVIDE TO YOU WHERE PEOPLE CALCULATED
THE TIME SPENT, THE DOLLAR VALUE.
02:46:09
WOULD YOU LIKE TO BE RECOGNIZED?

02:46:14
IF YOU HAVE SOMEONE ELSE TO GO AHEAD OF YOU.

02:46:20
I THINK THIS WILL BE THE FINAL QUESTION. I WANT TO SAY NICE THINGS --
02:46:32
I WANTED TO START BY SAYING NICE THINGS ABOUT THE SENATOR. LET THE RECORD SHOW I
HAVE A VERY HIGH OPINION AND REGARD.
02:46:42
PRESENT LONG AS I CONTINUE IN THIS REGARD. -- AS LONG AS I CONTINUE. I WANT TO

THANK TOM AND HIS TEAM. I KNOW THEY HAVE BEEN WORKING INCREDIBLE HOURS UNDER
A GREAT DEAL OF PRESSURE AND THEY CONTINUE TO BE THE CONSUMMATE
PROFESSIONALS, TURNING OUT FIRST QUALITY WORK UNDER TREMENDOUS TIME
CONSTRAINTS. I WANT TO THANK TOM AND HIS TEAM FOR THAT WORK. I HAVE ONE SHORT
LINE OF QUESTIONING. THE SENATE BILL, AS YOU KNOW, ALLOWS BUSINESS TO RECOGNIZE
THE FULL COST OF PURCHASING NEW EQUIPMENT. VEHICLES, MACHINERY, IN WHICH THEY
MAKE THE PURCHASE. RATHER THAN AMORTIZE THAT COST, WHICH IS THE WAY WE HAVE
HISTORICALLY DONE THIS.
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02:47:50
THAT IS CORRECT.
02:47:51
IS THE VIEW OF JOINTS TAX THAT THAT HAS THE EFFECT OF LOWERING THE AFTER-TAX COST
FOR BUSINESS TO ACQUIRE THAT?
02:48:04
THAT IS A FACTOR REDUCING THE COST.

02:48:11
IF YOU LOWER THE COST, BUSINESS PURCHASES MORE OF IT. >> THAT IS ONE OF THE
FACTORS THAT GOES INTO THE MACRO ANALYSIS.
02:48:26
WHEN BUSINESSES PURCHASES MORE OF IT, IT IS NECESSARILY THE CASE SOMEONE HAD TO
WORK AT PRODUCING THAT EQUIPMENT. THERE ARE MANY JOBS INVOLVED IN THE
PRODUCTION, SALE, DISTRIBUTION. THERE ARE ALSO JOBS FOR THE PEOPLE WHO PUT THAT
EQUIPMENT TO WORK.
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02:48:50
THAT IS PART OF THE EMPLOYMENT EFFECTS. >> I MENTIONED THIS, JUST BECAUSE
SOMETIMES OUR COLLEAGUES WHO DO NOT SUPPORT THIS LEGISLATION SUGGEST THERE IS
NOT GOING TO BE ANY ECONOMIC GROWTH. IN FACT, AS WE JUST CONFIRMED, THERE IS A
CLEAR MECHANISM BY WHICH THE POLICIES IN OUR LEGISLATION ABSOLUTELY
ENCOURAGE MORE ECONOMIC GROWTH, MORE JOB CREATION. AT A TIME WHEN WE ARE
CLOSE TO FULL EMPLOYMENT, THAT CAN ONLY LEAD TO HIGHER WAGES. THIS IS WHAT OUR
ECONOMY NEEDS.
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02:49:31
THANK YOU.
02:49:33
I WANT TO START HIGH SAYING THE NICEST THINGS I CAN ABOUT MY FRIEND FROM
PENNSYLVANIA. THANKS TO YOU AND THE FOLKS YOU WORK WITH, THANK YOU FOR DOING
IT. IF THE SENATE PASSED THE TAX CUT, IF IT WERE TO BECOME LAW, WHAT DO YOU THINK
THE INCREASE IN DEATHS WOULD BE?
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02:50:12
THE SENATE PASSED BILL, WE HAVE AN ESTIMATE. IF YOU WANT TO ASK ANOTHER
QUESTION, I WILL LOOK IT UP.
02:50:30
THE SECOND QUESTION, WOULD RELATE TO THE FIRST QUESTION. IT IS NOT CLEAR TO ME
WHETHER THE CAUSE IS INCLUDED IN THAT.
02:50:56
OUR ESTIMATE, AS REPORTED, THE CONVENTIONAL ESTIMATE, IT WOULD LOSE $1 TRILLION.

THAT DOES NOT INCLUDE ANY INCREMENTAL INCREASE ON THE DEBT THAT MIGHT BE
ATTRIBUTABLE TO THE HIGHER DEBT.
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02:51:36
I HEARD A NUMBER OF $600 BILLION.

02:51:41
I DON'T WANT TO MAKE A BAD GUESS. I KNOW THE CONGRESSIONAL BUDGET OFFICE DID
SOME ANALYSIS FROM HIGHER DEFICIT FINANCED.
02:51:53
MAY I ASK AS A FOLLOW-UP, IF WE TAKE A LOOK AT THE SENATE BILL, IS IT TRUE WITH A
COUPLE OF EXCEPTIONS, THE PROVISIONS AFFECTING INDIVIDUALS, --
02:52:08
THE SENATE LEGISLATION EXPIRES THE INDIVIDUAL PROVISIONS.

02:52:14
CAN YOU TELL US ROUGHLY WHAT THE 10 YEAR COST OF THE BILL WOULD BE? IF THOSE ARE
EXTENDED PERMANENTLY?
02:52:27
THE COST WITHIN THE BUDGET -- I WILL HAVE TO RESPOND SEPARATELY. I DO NOT HAVE
THAT AVAILABLE RIGHT NOW.
02:52:38
TIME HAS EXPIRED. I WOULD LIKE TO ALSO THANK TOM. YOU AND ALL THE PROFESSIONAL
TEAM AT JOINT COMMAND TAXATION, DOING A REMARKABLE JOB. I THINK ALL THE
MEMBERS OF THE CONFERENCE. THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WAITED DECADES FOR TAX
REFORM. RIGHT NOW, WE ARE IN THE HOME STRETCH. GETTING ACROSS THE FINISH LINE.
TAX REFORM THAT PROVIDES MORE JOBS. WITH THAT, THE CONFERENCE COMMITTEE IS
ADJOURNED.
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02:53:19
*This transcript was compiled from uncorrected Closed Captioning.

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December 13, 2017

HOUSE AND SENATE CONFERENCE COMMITTEE MEMBERS MET TO DISCUSS RECONCILING

I RECOGNIZE RICHIE NEAL.

IT WOULD BE LIKE -- I WOULD LIKE TO BE RECOGNIZED ON A POINT OF PERSONAL PRIVILEGE.

THE MOTION IS NOT AVAILABLE AND WE WILL CONTINUE.

MIGHT I BE ALLOWED TO QUESTION THE RULING?

I HAVE A MOTION IN WRITING PERTAINING TO THE FORMAT OF TODAY'S MEETING AND I

UNDER THE RULES THE MOTION IS AVAILABLE. WE WILL CONTINUE.

WE WILL RETURN TO REGULAR ORDER.

MR. NUNES, YOU ARE RECOGNIZED.

I WOULD HAVE A QUESTION IF I MIGHT IF THERE IS AN AGREEMENT FROM THE REPUBLICAN

WHEN ARE YOU ANTICIPATING THAT BEING FILED?

THE TIMETABLE WILL BE DRIVEN BY THE COMPLETION OF THE CONFERENCE COMMITTEE

THANK YOU. SENATOR SANDERS, YOU ARE RECOGNIZED.

YOU ARE RECOGNIZED FOR AN OPENING STATEMENT.

WITHOUT OBJECTION. SENATOR MURKOWSKI.

THANK YOU. IT IS A PLEASURE TO BE HERE WITH MY COLLEAGUES FROM BOTH CHAMBERS

SENATOR CORNER -- SENATOR CORNYN.

WE WILL HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR A SECOND ROUND OR ONE OF YOUR COLLEAGUES TO

SENATOR CAMPBELL, YOU ARE RECOGNIZED.

MR. CHAIRMAN. PARLIAMENTARY INQUIRY. SO THAT IS NOT AVAILABLE. NOT EVEN IN

DO I HAVE TO BEGIN DEMAGOGIC OR CAN I JUST SPEAK?

SENATOR BTHUNE, YOU ARE RECOGNIZED.

CHAIRMAN KASS IS RECOGNIZED.

WOULD BE MORE INSTRUCTIVE TO DO THE FINAL REPORTS ON TWITTER, WHERE IT IS

MS. STAPP AND NOW, YOU ARE RECOGNIZED. -- STABENOW.

THE GENTLELADY'S TIME IS EXPIRED. REPRESENTATIVE YOUNG, GENTLELADY'S TIME IS

GENTLEMAN'S TIME IS EXPIRED.

CHUCK SCHUMER AND I WORKED ON IT.

SENATOR MENENDEZ. YOU ARE RECOGNIZE.

MR. UPTON, YOU ARE RECOGNIZED.

THANK YOU. REPRESENTATIVE SHIMKISS.

THE CONGRESSWOMAN SAID -- [ INAUDIBLE ] WHEN WOULD OUR CONFERENCE HAVE A

SO WHAT IS YOUR PARLIAMENTARY INQUIRY, SENATOR?

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WILL WE ACTUALLY BE ASKED TO VOTE YES OR NO IN A CONFERENCE COMMITTEE BEFORE?

I THINK THAT QUESTION HAS BEEN ASKED AND ANSWERED.

SO WHEN DO WE VOTE ON IT? ARE WE GOING TO VOTE AS A CONFERENCE COMMITTEE?

SO AS A CONFERENCE COMMITTEE, WE'RE NOT GOING TO GET AN OPPORTUNITY TO VOTE

AGAIN, CONFERENCE RULES.

I'M VERY -- I'VE BEEN ON OTHER CONFERENCE COMMITTEES. I'M JUST --

WE'RE NOT VOTING?

SENATOR, WE ARE GOING TO CONTINUE REGULAR ORDER.

WHEN DO WE HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO OFFER AMENDMENTS TO THE CONFERENCE

SENATOR, WE ARE GOING TO CONTINUE THIS --

SENATOR, YOU'RE OUT OF ORDER. WE'RE GOING TO RESPECT EACH OTHER.

I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE HERE OUT OF ORDER.

THANK YOU, CHAIRMAN BRADY, CHAIRMAN HATCH, MEMBERS OF THE CONFERENCE

SO GROWTH IN JOBS, GROWTH IN PRODUCTIVITY, GROWTH IN WAGES AND GROWTH IN THE

MR. BARTHOLD, I'LL HOLD MYSELF STRICTLY TO THREE MINUTES AS WELL.

THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN.

THANK YOU. MR. NEIL, YOU ARE RECOGNIZED.

IT IS EFFECTIVELY REPEALED BY NO NEW ALLOCATIONS.

AND THE HISTORIC TAX CREDIT?

IT WOULD BE REPEALED, SIR.

AND THE ORPHAN TAX BILL.

PRIVATE ACTIVITY BOND. >> IT WAS ALSO REPEALED, SIR.

THANK YOU, SENATOR WINE YOU'RE RECOGNIZED.

CHAIRMAN BRADY IS NOW CONFIRMED THAT THIS IS A REALITY SHOW VERSION OF A

IS THAT CORRECT? >> THAT'S CORRECT.

I STILL STAND BY THAT STATEMENT, SIR.

GREAT. COMPARED TO CURRENT LAW, ISN'T IT CORRECT THAT MILLIONS OF FAMILIES,