Documentos de Académico
Documentos de Profesional
Documentos de Cultura
Lo g in
View Full Version : Military Science
Improvised Weapons
Detonation and Demolition
Weapon Science and Technology
Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification
Tactics, Training, Defense, and Safety
Ammunition and Reloading
Rifles and Shotguns
Handguns
Automatic and Assault Weapons
Blackpowder and Muzzleloaded Guns
Firearm Accessories
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Am m unition and R e l o a d i n g
Log in
View Full Version : Ammunition and Reloading
Lo g in
View Full Version: The Explosives and Weapons Forum
Log in
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > range activated exploding projectile
Log in
View Full Version : range activated exploding projectile
Imagine a smaller that golf ball sized moldable explosive, surrounded by tiny nails to make a spiny little grenade smaller than 2". Now imagine it has some very small
electronics in it also: an accelerometer, an adjustable timer, and a small power supply. The whole thing is encased in paper mache' to make a nice mortar-like ball that fits the
barrel perfectly. Now the idea is that you take the range of your target with a range finder, plug it into some simple projectile motion equations, and figure out how long the
shell will take to get to the target. You open a little flap or something on the shell, set the timer, and fire. The countdown starts at the end of positive acceleration (when it
leaves the barrel). As the shell travels down range, it counts down it's preprogrammed time and at the end, triggers a switch or relay to connect a circut with the ignitor,
causing it to explode.
This idea could be improved upon with an electronic range finder. Instead of manually entering the time, perhaps the shell has metal contacts that touch other contacts on the
inside of the barrel. The range finder relays the range into a microchip which calculates the time it takes for the shell to reach the target. This time is relayed from the chip to
the shell via the contacts.
I am going to begin testing this sometime this summer, starting out with a simple fused design just to test its worth. If it proves effective, I will try the electronic version.
<small>[ June 20, 2002, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: Madog555 ]</small>
However I was once going to make something similar, The circuit was a simple 555 monostable circuit. It was set to turn on and start counting when a reed switch was
triggered as the projectile left the barrel of the cannon (a very powerful magnet was to be attached to the outside of the end of the barrel). The voltage was kept 'turned on'
by use of a thyrister.
There were some issues with it though, the barrel must not be made of a magnetic material, and the magnet must be removed when loading the projectile.
I think that the main advantage to this design as opposed to yours is its simplicity. Also it is very cheap, the electronics for each projectile probably not costing more than 2. I
think that a PP3 (9 Volt) battery is the most cost effective power source, and because of this the projectile would probable by elongated like a proper mortar shell. Finns could
also be added for extra stability.
This design does not however take into consideration the speed of the projectile, distance from source or any other factor. This would be a big problem if you had a misfire.
On a simpler note, how about just using the same design as an 'airbomb' (firework) and using the lift charge to light a section of slow burning composition and have this
leading into a primary charge (AP, HMTD etc) which in turn could be used to detonate a secondary explosive..... This is much less complex, but is a tries and tested method.
I knew the base charge had went off and the main was about to go off so I instinctivly ran into the nearby garage. Unfortunately, my friend didn't have such an advanced
understanding of how fireworks work as I did. He just stood there, unhurt but shocked, and then the entire area for about 40 yards instantly burned brightly and created thick
thick smoke as the burning stars whizzed past him and onto my porch, yard, picinic tables etc.
The bomblets were round balls covered with rubber that would bounce off the ground, back up into the air, before exploding. A simple impact switch would activate a .2 second
delay that caused it to explode between 10 and 40 feet above the enemies heads.
And we recently got into the store these shotglasses that light up when they're slammed down on the tabletop. A very small spring is supported on one end, the other end free
to swing above a contact plate. When hit with enough force against a stationary object, the free end of the spring bends down and touches the contact, completing the circuit.
This seems like an easily adapted impact switch. Just use a sufficiently stiff spring with some sort of support to prevent premature activation, like an ejecting pin that runs
down the spring, and you're set.
<small>[ July 21, 2002, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: Anthony Privratsky ]</small>
<small>[ July 22, 2002, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: john_smith ]</small>
What type of explosive? Remember it has to withstand some pretty substantial acceleration so low sensitivity is a must.
What type of casing? It must fit in a 2" pvc pipe. I originally planned on using a mini nerf football (very aerodynamic w/ fins) that supposedly fits very well into a 2" pipe but
they are discontinued. I was thinking possibly plaster. Lightweight, easy to cast, however, If it is shaped like a large bullet (I figure about 1' long total with a rounded front
end), then the side walls around the explosive may not withstand the force of the massive air pressure wave hitting it.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">
|--------x---------\
| x \
| EEEEEEEEEEEEE==P---
| x /
|________x_________/</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">This is the basic idea, explosive cast in middle, with a small tube
extending to the tip (also filled with explosive) and a primer at the end of the tube and a metal rod just sticking out of the bullet to transfer impact to the primer. Weak points
of concern where x's are.
Remember, I'm trying to avoid metal as this round has to be as lightweight as possible.
<small>[ October 02, 2002, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: Ctrl_C ]</small>
First make a mould of your chosen design, then with a say plaster mould, fill it with melted plastic, then with another solid mould but about 5mm gap all the way around the
other mould. push it in, and the excess plastic is pushed out.
Don't know how good this would work, or if it would work at all. But you could try it on a smaller scale perhaps?
Though AP is somewhat sensitive, it is stil insensitive and stable enough to be filled into a cal.22 hollowpoint and making a projectile that explodes on impact. I tried it many
many times working perfectly 99,9% of the time. Both from pistol and rifle.
If pressed firmly it will withstand a high acceleration without detonating. So if it is pressed good (take care) it should launch from your spudgun like a charm. But take really
good care. You would obviously be dealing with larger amounts than that of a .22 drilled with a 2,2 mm drill.
Well my use in the .22 is very different from yours so I just mention this so you can compare my experiences to what you need yourself.
Take care.
(I really like to tell more about my experiences on this becaus ihave a lot, if any is interested. But I don't know where would be most appropriate.)
The main thing is that you do some testing so you can reproduce timings down to few hundreds of a second. Actually I think this could be a problem. Mostly because the value
of the resistor that discharges the cap. is somewhat temprature dependant.
<small>[ October 04, 2002, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: Asger ]</small>
You could even attach some fins to some dowel and cast that into the rear of the round.
I've thought about using one of those home-manufactured spudgun darts like on spudtech.com, this would give you more room for electronics and added shrapnel. You could
even use shaped charges. My guess would be that 1 1/4" endcaps would fit in 2" PVC.
<small>[ October 08, 2002, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: BoB- ]</small>
Now I don't know the range wherein this device responds neither if it only responds to the phone while it is ringing or also while a conversation is going on. But I don't suppose
such a piece of cheap electronics can tell the difference.
I will buy one soon and see what potential it has. Maybe one of you guys already have one.
But you get the picture : lure target into a deserted area, make a call to a cellphone carried by target (from a stationary phone ofcourse to avoid premature detonation) and
fire the grenade towards target while target ansvers phone. For better successrate, add impact detonator to grenade too.
<small>[ October 23, 2002, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: Asger ]</small>
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > A m m unitio n a n d R e l o a d i n g > New Rimfire! So Ex pensive!
Log in
View Full Version : New Rimfire! So Expensive!
It is said to have better ballistics than .22m a g . P e r s o n a lly I stick with .223Rem or .22PPC for varm int shoot. Now there isn't
any gun that I know of that is built for .17/22.
http://www.acusport.com /web/Hornady17HMR-1 1 - 1 2 . a s p
T h e s i z e o f t h e . 1 7 H M R d i d r i n g s o m e bell,
so I tried to go through my magazines see if
I can com pare it with the new H&K PDW round
but I can't find the magazine, m aybe later
I'll post it up.
I ' v e a l s o s e e n m entioned on another gun forum that there are barrels th at'll squeeze a .22 down to .2, .17 , and even .15.
------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. Th at is the end that awaits me."
Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com / n b k 2 o o o ) t o d o w n l o a d t h e N B K 2 0 0 0 f i l e s a n d v i d e o s .
------------------
" C h a n c e f a v o r s a p r e p a r e d m ind" - Louis Pasteur
"Happiness is a large pile of links." - Me
P G P I D 0 x 1 4 7 C EF54
That's what I thought, except that the last item isn't appealing.
.17HMR
Acco rding to a m e m b e r o f t h a t f o r u m , s o m e
private am m o m aker is already m a k i n g . 1 7 H M R
for sale (there's your source for prim e d
cases.)
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y H M T D F a c t o ry (edited 12-02-2001).]
http://www.civil-defence.org/products/ballistics/boz224/boz224.h tm l
http://www.scs.wsu.edu/~pbourque/im a g e s / g u n s / g l o c k b o z . j p g
It'll penetrate 1.4m m titanium plate + 30 layers of kevlar, BP glass, car bodies, etc.
http://www.owlnet.com /quality/223%20Tim b s . h t m
C a s e s p e c s f o r t h e . 2 2 4 B O Z are here:
If you know the enem y is arm ed with such weapons (.224), don't even bother wearing a vest since it won't protect you anyways,
and will weigh you down.
Let THEM wear the he avy vests while you dance around them , shooting them with YOUR CZ-52 copy-cat. :)
Rem ember;
------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. Th at is the end that awaits me."
Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com / n b k 2 o o o ) t o d o w n l o a d t h e N B K 2 0 0 0 f i l e s a n d v i d e o s .
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y n b k 2 0 0 0 ( e dited 12-02-2001).]
I a l s o h e a r d t h e S w e d e n h a d n e c k e d d own 9m m
to their favorite 6.5mm , said there will be
a barrel available for Glock. Since I like
6 . 5 m m a s m uch as a Swedish does, I m ight
just want one.
------------------
W ith Knowledge we find Truth - With Truth we find Freedom
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > caseless ammunition
Log in
View Full Version : caseless ammunition
In one example I think SP was added to EtOH and after the material turned stringy and then plasticy, the material was removed from the EtOH and allowed to dry. Some of
the "plastic SP" was molded onto the end of bullets and fired without negative effects. This is all from memory, by the way.
So, perhaps it is possible to place a bullet primer in the "plastic SP" on the back of a bullet (bought or ball bearing) and allow the plastic SP to dry completly. While this may be
poor ammunition, it takes into account that the user may not have access to commercial ammunition.
More on topic I think there was a M-60 like machine gun that fired caseless rounds. It came out umm.. 97 98 ? its a bit hazy I think it was called a UMPO.. I forget the rest has
any one heard of this weapon? Il have a look for it tomorrow
........................
"The Kewls cower in fear of the Naturelus Bornus Killus" (I do to!!)
<small>[ March 14, 2003, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: I_am_the_Black_one ]</small>
"The Steyr ACR is built around a specially designed cartridge of nominal caliber of 5.56mm. This cartridge has simple, cylindrically shaped plastic case. The fleschette, or dart, is
totally enclosed in the case. Fleschette diameter is about 1.5 mm (.06 inch), lenght is about 41 mm (1.6 inch), weight 0.66 gramm (10 grains). Fleschette is partially enclosed
into discarding sabot, and leaves the muzzle at impressive velocity of 1450 meters per second (4750 fps), still retaining velocity of 910 m/s (2980 fps) at the range of 600
meters. The plastic case had no rim or extracting groove, and priming compound is located annually at the inside wall of the case."
A43tg37:
H&K chased the government business, where Voere chased the civilian market.
Voere is still selling caseless rifles -- but I don't know the process to import one into the United States from Austria.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > A m m unitio n a n d R e l o a d i n g > Stacked Bullets
Log in
View Full Version : Stacked Bullets
s o m e fireworks use it to... rom an cand le? they use sawdust as wadding
I've also read that in the Vietnam war they m ade "Multi Bullet" cartridges for the M-60 where the round was split in half so
when fired a short spitzer point and a cylindrical slug would leave the barrel. But that's from a few m o n t h s a g o .
They spread out about 3 inches at ten yards, from a 2 inch bbl revolver, giving more shock power.
S a m e works for 32 ca l revolvers using whicheve r of the balls for buckshot m easures 30 cal.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > A m m unitio n a n d R e l o a d i n g > .410 shotgun shells
Log in
View Full Version : .410 shotgun shells
------------------
angelo's place (http://hop.to/angelo) | have a good link? add it here (http://pub16.brave net.com /freelink/show.php?
u s e r n u m = 1 3 0 7 4 4 2 6 5 6) | go to the OZ Forum (http://pub75.ezb oard.com / b o z f o r u m 97164)
------------------
"I'm not an assassin. killing is m ore of a hobby with m e."' Robert A. Heinlein
I d o n ' t r e m e m ber exactly why, but it was something to with being a sm aller calibre, to have a sim ilar shot pattern as larger
calibres, the load is longer, thus taking more pressure to propel it at a decent velocity.
T h i s c a m e f r o m a book on pistols which had a section on zip guns, including a .410 pistol.
------------------
live by the bom b
die by the bomb
There are a few revolvers that shoot .45LC and .410. The D-m a x a n d T h u n d e r f i v e c o m e t o m i n d . Y o u c a n m a k e s h o t s h e l l s
from several .45 rim m e d c a s e s . O l d s h o t g u n s h e l l s u s e d t o b e m a d e o u t o f b r a s s . B u t i t w a s u n e s s e s s a r y s o t h e y u s e p l a s t i c
with a little brass on the bottom . There are com bat loads for .41 0 that shoot 5 #000 buck (.38 caliber) and even with a rifled
barrel, thats fairly "overkill" fo r h o m e d e f e n s e . I m a g i n e that in a snubno se. I think the only reason they dont m a k e o n e
(saving the Thunder five) is because you need consistent powde r ignition with the .410 shell but th ats easy to fix with a pinch
of fast burning powder at the bottom of the casing. Shotshells are easy to load for .410, you dont need a crim p. Plus you can
shoot things like arrows or bolts (wooden slugs)..
Your m issing out. We can get kits here that are "legal" to buy without a FFL. You just have to weld the side plates on. There
are several different m o d e l s . D o u b l e b arrel, single shot, double barrel with .22 on top, 9 shot .22 m anually indexing revolver,
full sized shotguns with folding stock a nd black powder versions. The best one they have is the .410 derringer but with a 13 1/
2 length. Looks just like a sawed off shotgun but is actually a pistol. Fires only one barrel at a tim e but would do som e serio us
d a m age at close range with the right load.
I own an old "Lerap" single sh ot that can sing nicely with the hot long colt, very precisely d espite the fact thats not rifled.
Another piece its an double barrel .10 inches gun that I can shot both barrels at the same tim e and no big recoill.
I t s a n c h e a p a m m o, at m y country it can be bough for less than c$ 15 and no license required, and the spent cases can be
reloaded till the end of the wo rld as the plastic deformation is m inim al.
I used to reload with rock salt, sm all lumps the size of peas, dipped in wax to prevent mo isture accuiring, to shot at the little
garden burglars or the kids who tried to trespass m y hom e, with heavy fishing lead, with slugs m a d e b y m yself with copper
t u b i n g a n d m elted lead, with wooden saboted .22 calliber flechetes and the list goes on...
Practicaly any load that could bed on b igger callibers can be used on the ubidiquous .410, cheaper and with less recoill, at le ast
for my standards. Som e o t h e r n i c e i d e a s o n r e l o a d e d a m mo (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum /sh owthread.php?t=3350) with
hum ble adds by myself...
M y s e c o n d e x p e r i e n c e , m uch less pleasant, was getting hit with pellets that bounced back out of a .410/.45 derringer, becau se
they had failed to penetrate into soft pineboard. They left small dents, a nd that's it.
In m y view, .410 is useless unless the barrel is long enough for the velocity to bu ild up to acceptable levels, which negates the
a d v a n t a g e s o f c o n c e a l m ent.
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > New rimfire ammo - Archive File
Log in
View Full Version : New rimfire ammo - Archive File
".223 rimfire" (I have no idea or info about what this is. It might look like a .223 remington.....or a banana.)
From what I eavesdropped from a rimfire forum the .17rimfire is based on .22LR and can fly
at 1900fps.
Volquartsen Custom will be making Ruger 10/22 chambered in this caliber. Another manufacturer will be making Ruger MK II chambered for .17/22LR
I havn't heard anything from major gun manufacturers' response to this new caliber yet. (Should be just a barrel changing job, don't worry)
I assume the new .17 bullet will be different than .17 bullets for .17 centerfires because
it's going to be a rimfire bullet, like a mini .22LR bullet. So there's a chance that the new .17 will be something other than
.172 centerfire, jacketed bullet.
Will that .17 bullet like your .178/.179 airgun bore? You'll have to wait till more info is available. Or I'll measure the real dimension of the bullet when I can get some.
Before that there's time for you airgun FIENDS to think about how to re-chamber that
beat-up old airgun under your bed into a unregistered "cartridge processor".
IMO side-lever airguns are more possible to turn into a successful firearm since the breech will not blast loose or blast open under high pressure like a break-action airgun.
Bitter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 291
From: 11 Downing Street, London, England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 26, 2001 09:06 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A .25 acp round will fit perfectly into a .25 air rifle barrel with minimal machining. I think that would be a little better. I wonder where could you get one of these barrels from
without attracting attention ?
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 217
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted February 26, 2001 04:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Airgun bores, re-chamber, modified firing mechanism.
Where can you find a ".25 airgun barrel" without attracting attention?
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 217
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted February 26, 2001 05:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some updates :
Workers at Aguila got over with the strike,
the first 25 million .17/22LR will be in the US in March.
The .17/22 will use old magazines as is except for Ruger MK IIs where the magazine lips will need to be changed.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > A m m unitio n a n d R e l o a d i n g > .17 HRM ? I want one
Log in
View Full Version : .17 HRM ? I want one
Personally th e only reason i shoot a 22 rimfire is for the econom y of it. A brick of rem ington thunderbolts can be bought for
l i k e $ 8 . 0 0 o n s a l e . T h a t s 5 0 0 r o u n d s u n d e r 2 c e n t s p e r s h o t . 2 2 m agnum rounds cost about $9.00 for 50 rounds, and this n ew
.17hrm is going to be what? About $14.00 for 50? For that kind of price, in a small caliber application.... I'll stick with the .223.
T h e . 1 7 H R M h a s a V O of 2550 f.p.s how much is that in m/s. One thing that definately is better with the .17 than the .22 is
that the high er VO wich m a k e s i t p o s s i b l e t o u s e " r e a l " b u l l e t s i n s t e a d o f t h e o r d i n a r y . 2 2 P b l u m b s . T h e V - m a x i s a g o o d
bullet and probably fits the calibre quite well. I recently found a ruger K77 zvbs heavy varmint 22-250 for sale. That would be
nice to have, 1200 m/s and acuurate to 400+ meters. That way I could skip the .22 but the .22 is still my favourite since it's so
cheap that you shoot all day, unless you're a m ilioner it's quite hard to shoot the .17 HRM all day.
For a .22, try using Triton Q uik-Shoks. The slugs are three pieces of lead that are swaged into one bullet. On im pact, it blows
apart into the three p ieces which go every which way inside the target.
A .17 varm int rifle m ight have applications for short range sniping. Varm int rounds are very high velocity which cause them to
(essentially) vaporize into dust. Meaning no ba llistics.
Also, being of small caliber, it's m uch easier to silence than a larger caliber, thus much ea sier to avoid drawing attention.
R e m ember, air guns firing pellets have been known to kill, so an actual firearm can easily kill a human too , if a decent target
is hit.
Y o u a i n t g o i n g t o g e t 5 0 0 0 b u llets, let alone the rest of the case. I m ean just the bullets, your not going to get for 25 bucks
around here.
And who was talking for hunting anyway guys. If i'm going after varmints (usually racoons) with m y 22lr i shoot CCI Stingers.
And i'm serious telling me where you get them for that price. I'll order 20,000 right now.
Now that som eone corners you and wants to kn ow W HERE you got them, all the sudden its a deal that was only for you. No
store, no website.
A cousins friend?
LOL
And DBSB that m ay be right, but I have no clue what the conversion is to Am erican Dollars.
And either way, even at $8.00 for 500 rounds o f thunderbolts, thats chea p e r t h a n s h o o t i n g a C O 2 p e l l e t g u n . W h e n y o u
consider the price of pellets and CO2, .22's are cheaper.
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > Light Gas Bullet
Log in
View Full Version : Light Gas Bullet
This is an attempt to make the Light Gas Gun concept, that Anthony brought up in the "Penetrating Thick-Skinned Targets" thread, more practical and usable. From the picture,
you can probably see how this is supposed to work: Primer goes off, sets off the main charge, expanding gasses push the piston forward, piston compresses the gas, breaks
the weakened metal, and the projectile is fired. The Stopper's purpose is to stop the piston from flying out of the cartridge, thus making the cartridge's ejection much cleaner.
The Explosive that is used could probably be anything - High order or low order. While most light gas guns use gunpowder or a hydrocarbon, I was thinking more along the
lines of a High Explosive such as RDX or PETN...but maybe I'm being a bit adventurous.
For the piston, perhaps lead would be a good choice of material due to its high density.
The actual gas that is used would probably be Nitrogen, due to the way that I imagine the projectile being built: Primer is loaded, followed by the Explosive, then the piston on
top, and the Liquid "Gas" poured in, projectile is placed on top, projectile is attatched to the cartridge. Nitrogen would be ideal due to the fact that Liquid Nitrogen is readily
available.
The purpose of the Weakened Metal is to serve as the rapture point on the bullet; the point that gives in to the high pressure. Therefore, it breaks in a predictable way,
releasing the bullet down the barrel.
Unfortunately, this will not include the portion of the Light Gas Gun that creates a vacuum in front of the projectile...unless you are firing it in Space :) .
What kinds of muzzle velocities can be expected from this idea? I'm not expecting the 7km/sec mark, but hopefully something higher than the usual speed of bullets. Ideally,
this could serve as a cheaper replacement to the high-caliber rounds... Anyhow, do you see this as having much potential?
<small>[ November 09, 2002, 01:15 AM: Message edited by: Zach ]</small>
The purpose of evacuating the barrel is to eleminate air-resistance in the barrel, which is a lot more of a problem in a barrel than it is when the projectile is flying through the
air. In a barrel, the projectile has to push all of the air in the barrel, along its length and out of the muzzle.
The casing would not extend over the projectile, rather it would be attatched to the projectile by a strip of weakened metal. The picture I provided above is not counting in any
specific measurements, it is more of a case of me putting an idea into a picture. The stoppers would probably be closer to the back of the projectile, so that the piston has
more room to travel and build the gas up to a higher pressure. The reason I thought that a High Explosive would be best suited for this purpose is because of how quickly it
releases gasses and, applied to this situation, would push the piston forward.
Pyromaniac- I'm not sure if you caught this or not, but as the piston moves forward, the gas reaches extraordinary pressures. I believe in some light gas guns, they've turned
Hydrogen pressurized Hydrogen to the point that it becomes solid (anyone confirm this?). Seeing as the cartridge is not suited to handle these sorts of pressures, it is going to
burst. And with the structure weakened at specific points (i.e.: the points attatching the cartridge to the projectile), we can predict which portions will give in to the pressure
first. As the weaker metal raptures, it separates the projectile from the cartridge and the High-Pressured gas should propel it down the barrel.
Another advantage I see to such a bullet now is little to no Muzzle Flash: High Explosives are not known for their pretty fireballs, and the true propellant in this bullet is mere
Nitrogen Gas.
EDIT: I made this post while Anthony was, so I did not get to see his <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . Isn't Nitrogen a light gas? I believe it was
listed in the list of potential gasses to be used in a Light Gas Gun. Although it was not the best choice (that goes to Hydrogen, but I have not heard much of Liquid Hydrogen), it
still worked pretty well.
In this design, the real work horse is not so much the explosive, but the gas... How much do you expect the air resistance to slow the projectile? Would it reach a point that,
upon exiting the barrel, it has ordinary muzzle velocities? (Sorry, I do not know much about Physics =\)
<small>[ November 09, 2002, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: MrSamosa ]</small>
"In this design, the real work horse is not so much the explosive, but the gas..." Wrong (although I kinda see what you're trying to say I think). All the energy comes from the
explosive, through the gas, with resulting losses due to heating etc. You'd be able to get more energy just by using the explosive, but for a higher velocity the light gas gun (or
two-stage light gas gun, as here) concept is used because normal propellants aren't suitable for high velocities.
Basically, with practical round lengths you'd be unable to achieve the compression needed for a weapon that is better than conventional ones. You need the gas to be able to
fill the barrel and still be at at least several atmospheres of pressure.
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
vulture November 9th, 2002, 07:02 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> IIRC due to the fact that you
can pack more molecules of a light gas into a given volume at a given pressure, so it stores more energy</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial,
Helvetica">Not true. One mole of hydrogen gas takes up as much space as one mole of Radon gas at the same temperature and pressure.
pV = nRT <=> pV/RT = n where n is the number of moles of any given gas.
--------------------------------------------------
: :D %%%%%%%%%%%%%D
--------------------------------------------------
you could also some how vacume and seal the last half of the barrel to rid it of air resistance. barrel might just stand up to the extra pressure, of course testing on this would
be done remotly i assume.
just my 2 cents
<small>[ November 09, 2002, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: spydamonkee ]</small>
I do know a tiny bit about light gas guns, and my issues with your design are two fold.
First I thin you are rgeatly overestimating the amount of work that can be done by the gas resivour. All of the research with light gas guns i have read about used huge
volumes of gas to do the work. unless you plan on having a round for a 30-06 sized projectile that is 10ft long and 100mm in diameter, i dont think the gas will do anything for
you.
Secondly, all you are doing is conveying kinetic energy from the rapidly expanding combustion gasses of a propellent to a projectile, via the gas. if you have the ability to
release the energy stored in the gas resivour much more quickly than burning a propellent, then you ahve the chance to accelerate the projectile faster than the propellant
would. but remeber the conservation of mass energy.. since the system is far from ideal it's not going to be very efficent, therefore even though you might have the ability to
propel rounds fast, it's going to come at the expense of requiring a lighter round...
Vulture, I don't doubt that you're right on this. My reference was that a compressed air gun, which releases a metered volume of gas at a set pressure, will impart considerably
more energy to a projectile when filled with helium, than air, for the same fill pressure.
------------------
ccccccccccccc$$pppp
------------------
c = powder
$= gas
p= projectile
I just thought of this but this might add some punch.Fill the top of the powder with a heavy smoking making powder(pardon me,enlisgh is not my main language).Leave a
small vacuum between that and the projectile.This would generate some gas and give the extra thrust you'r looking for.
Normal nitro-based propellant runs out at velocities far below those you can get from a light gas gun. The gasses are just too heavy.
The easy way to think of this is like electronics. The huge BP charge is like a lead acid battery, which pumps up a capacitor (the light gas), which then discharges really fast.
The pressure and heat builds right up, then the disc ruptures, letting the hot light gas (hydrogen is 7km/s and helium is 4 km/s) rush up the barrel, pushing the projectile ahead
of it.
There is a way to get even higher velocities. Most boats now tack across the wind, rather than just letting the wind push them forwards. This is because the aerofoil shape of
the "wing" (sail) causes lift, and this will pull/push the boat faster than the wind is actually travelling. The same trick can be used in LGGs, and velocities up to 15km/s have
been reported.
As for fielding one, well, they take a while to get set up, and the one I saw (honestly) was about 30 ft long, two feet thick, and was being used to shoot things to see what
happened. I can't say what or where, though. Trust me, it was huge, and bolted to lots of concrete.
The barrel was 15ft long, but thinner. The burst discs were precision cut things about 2 mm thick, and the projectile did 2800 metres per second. My flippant response was that
my 7.62 could do that. Then I realised I had just said something really dumb... 2800 ft/s is my rifle. This gun was three times faster. It was also firing a projectile ten times
heavier, iirc. The guy told me how they got the army to stuff a naval 15" gun with propellant to see what they could do, but it blew itself to bits before it got near 2800m/s.
This gun was running Helium, btw, and was dialed right down.
The support equipment was extreme, and so was the four foot thick blast wall. It seems that should the disc ever hold, the piston would come back, or else the gun would
burst. Which would be bad!
http://yarchive.net/space/exotic/light_gas_gun.html
actually, theres some good info (I think) on the whole thing http://yarchive.net/
Please note that metal and hot hydrogen don't go together well. Look up "Hydrogen embrittlement" on goggle. I am also rapidly coming to the conclusion that the LLG only
works by being enormously strong and heavy, so a small version could never be made. :(
Problems to be solved:
Hydrogen is a bugger to keep trapped, as the molecules are really small, and so they even get into teh metal lattice and cause embrittlement after a while - not good for
storage of cartridges, as they would become brittle, and you might find they had leaked away, meaning you had a dud.
The ratio of propellant and first chamber to the second chamber needs to be high. Someone quoted 200x. This might be excessive, but it might not be. So for a .17 Bee round
(4.5mm), you would need a 35mm piston of the same length, by my calc. I don't know how to work out the lengths, though.
It would be a bugger to move this thing, as the barrel is going to be pretty long, and recoil will likely NOT be man-sized. As a quick calc for helium as your gas (4000 m/s top
speed) running at "just" 75% (3000m/s) I reckon a 60 grain bullet should do (some kind of Tungsten rod) the KE of the bullet will be
3.88 grams @ 3000 m/s -> 38571 Joules or 28448 ft-lbs
or twice that of a .50 (18218J for a hot round)
Obviously, this only works for light, tiny calibre rounds, anything heavier than 60 grains is going to need a much heavier rifle. Mind you, making an LLG as light as 5Kg is likely
impossible!
Do we have any engineers on here who could do the calculations, and work out what sort of pressure, etc. would be the upper limit? I have seen proof marks that go as high
as 20 tonnes per square inch, which is the standard pressure for a 7.62 rifle, but does anyone know what, for example, .338 Lapua Magnum is proofed to?
What is the maximum pressure that modern high-strength steel can take before yeilding?
Also, does anyone know what an "AGARDograph" is? One of the most cited references in LLG things is "A. Seigel, "The Theory of High Speed Guns," AGARDograph 91, 1965",
but I have no idea what this even is!
Logically, the answer is that the piston is already decelerating, as it is using its energy to compress the light gas. Just before the piston stops, and shoots backwards, the seal
ruptures, and the bullet gets blown forward. The piston then continues to slow, but not as rapidly, and then probably starts to get pushed backwards a bit as the hot gunpowder
charge starts to cool.
No-one has ever tried to field one, since they are a bit big.
The gas pressure left in the cylinder will be high, but you could just vent it. Failing that, it is BP they use to push the piston, and the volume changes upwards so far, that they
may well just contain it fully.
80,000 PSI seems a bit too high- that is 40 tonnes per square inch, which is more than double the proof on my target rifle (It should be proofed to 20 tonnes, but it is old, and
proofed to only 19) in 7.62. Remember, there is no reason they have to go to such high pressures in the first stage. In fact, you want lower presures, as the gun will last
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
longer. You want the scary-ily high pressures in the second stage, where the light gas is at, and that just vents to atmosphere when the projectile leaves.
Must be one hell of a shockwave/muzzle blast! Over 100ft in some reports, as the Hydrogen burns...
the whole point about using the gun is that you get the pressure for a fraction of a second when you shoot something with it, as well as the instant heating effect.
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > exploding rifle slugs?
Log in
View Full Version : exploding rifle slugs?
I really dont see the point though man, the amount of explosive a rifle "bullet" could carry is small, and the explosive probably wouldnt end up causing anymore damage than
the bullet alone.
For information regarding this matter check die .50 Raufoss ammo.
<a href="http://www.firequest.com/catalog_window.htm">Firequest</a>
------------------
"True freedom is not without anarchy"
------------------
live by the bomb
die by the bomb
[This message has been edited by A-BOMB (edited June 22, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by madog (edited August 06, 2001).]
If you have a pneumatic gun, 8mm blanks make nice projectiles. I've been doing this recently, it seems that if you fire them fast enough they don't even need stabilisation.
When they hit a hard surface the shock sets them off. They can't do any damage, but they're pretty loud. Expensive though http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/
frown.gif
------------------
Monkeyman
[This message has been edited by madog (edited August 06, 2001).]
Uhh I know your banned but for the record maybe you will read this. If you knew anything about rifles and their ammunition you would know they made make ballistic tipped
ammunition, UFG (use fucking google).
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > Modification of bullets to
penetrate body Armor
Log in
View Full Version : Modification of bullets to penetrate body Armor
I have seen .224 Bozz and many other high-speed caliber conversions for existing weapons, but I want to look at this more
from an ammunition perspective then weapon modification. Since most conversions mean enlarging or elongating the weapon
to almost above concealable standards.
Would explosive filled tip bullets just explode on impact, splattering on the target, not penetrating? Or would they actually be
able to get through and do any real damage?
The compressed powder type is made from copper, zinc, titanium, or other non-toxic heavy metal and compressed under
great pressure to cause cold flowing of the metal. This causes it to retain a solid shape until the shock of impact against a
hard surface breaks the bonds of the powder particles, disintegrating the bullet.
This type is typically called "green" ammo, or "frangible training" ammo since it contains no toxic heavy metals like lead or
bismith (hence the enviro-freak term "green"), or for use at close range against metal targets that would otherwise be very
dangerous to use regular ammo against because of the richochet hazard.
The other type, shot, is made from very small shot (like #12) being contained within a thin copper jacket. This jacket ruptures
on impact, releasing the shot to disperse inside of a target. This is typical of Mag-Safe and Glasers.
I used to have a book by Lee Lapin called "Ninja 1990" (K3wL-ish title, but good info). They had used Glasers against ballistic
vests and the first shot would be stopped, but the damaged caused by the pellets tearing and bunching up the fibers would
allow any subsequent bullet impacts in the same area to pass through unhindered.
Obviously it'd be difficult to hit a person in the same area as a previous hit unless you're using full-auto. But, for up close and
unfriendly personal conflict resolution, full-auto is a good thing...IF you can control it and not spray wildly.
Anyways, I'm subscribed to the bulletin, so I'll eventually find out what the bullets are and post that info.
As for explosive ammo, a handgun bullet is too tiny to carry any sizeable amount of explosive. And, if it did, it'd explode on
impact, effectively turning into a cloud of fragments which the vest would readily stop.
It may be better to include a capsule of a highly toxic inhalational poison like sarin to the base of the bullet. On impact with a
vest, the capsule would be ruptured as the bullet deformed against the vest, releasing the sarin in the vicinity of the targets
face. More likely than not, the target would get a whiff of it and either die or be sufficiently impaired as to be easily killed.
If you could make a delayed impact fuse for an AP bullet, then you could possibly penetrate the armor and have the bullet
explode inside the target, causing much greater injury than the clean hole AP bullets produce.
I have seen cans of spray on teflon for coating frypans (dont laugh) etc... I believe one is called Cammie 2000? Having a
small amount of teflon applied to a small, high velocity round such as the Winchester .22 Mag (which can be bought in hi-cap
pistols) or possibly the 5.7x28 military round - if you can find a gun that uses that round \ a gun store that stocks them.
Im not sure if coating bullets with teflon would stuff up the bore of a firearm... trial and error I guess :)
Small calibre, high velocity, teflon coated and semi auto would be a quick way to dispense with lightweight body armor.
Does the usual Mr Plod who's on the beat wear straigh kevlar? Or is there a steel \ titanium plate or something aswell... If
thats the case (propper body armor) would a small, high speed teflon coated round be able to penetrate?
Could always get yourself a .50AE pistol and (somehow?) make your own depleted uranium slugs :p
<small>[ December 15, 2002, 12:31 AM: Message edited by: Fl4PP4W0k ]</small>
A small, pointy, hard, and fast object is going to have a much easier time of penetrating between the weaves of a vest. That's
why the FN and BOZ can penetrate vests so well. Small caliber rifle bullets of hard material being acccelerated to high speed.
The vast majority of people wearing vests don't have any type of hardplate like steel or titanium, so that's not a problem.
Perhaps the swat team or military, but not the street cops.
There's an ammo called "accelerator" that uses a 12 guage shotgun to fire an AP .50 bullet via sabot at almost 4,000FPS.
That'd quite handily penetrate virtually any vest out there.
I remember seeing an article a long time ago about a pistol that fired a dart-like projectile from a modified revolver. The
"dart" contained an explosive charge and would blow a fist sized hole through 3/8" steel plate. Something like this would
render armor moot since the blast alone would kill the target, regardless of any penetration effect.
A shotgun grenade would have the same effect. The second generation design has a trumpet-style shaped charge effect. The
problem I'm having is the fusing.
The problem with any non-explosive penetration is that the hole would have to intersect with a vital structure like brain/spine/
heart to be rapidly fatal. It doesn't do you any good if the guy dies 3 days after having blown your head off, now does it?
Typical AP ammo leaves a neat little hole through the body, not causing much damage in the meantime. The LA bankrobbers
used AP ammo in their shootout and, while wounding 16 people, didn't manage to kill anyone but themselves.
Though, if custom AP ammo had a weak cannelure, then the forward part could be a hard penetrator, while the base would
break off during penetration, to follow through the hole and lodge inside the target, depositing a poisonous payload. :)
If you do a search on "boz" here at the Forum, you'll find a previous thread that discussed this. I found the CZ-52
7.62x25mm pistol as surplus for $175 on-line. This, combined with the right ammo, is on par to the BOZ or FN for penetration
ability.
<small>[ December 15, 2002, 02:19 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>
Would something like this design be useful? Copper would probably be a little soft... but if there was a hard, pointed, stainless
steel(or Ti) 'nose' to the bullet - with a lead rear section - would that be of any greater detriment to the recipient?
ie: steel penetrates the armor, nose of bullet is forced back into standard lead round - thus lead expands. Expanded lead
slug makes its way through the hole that the initial point has made, and goes smashing into bone \ tissue making a nice
messy wound.
The hole that the point makes would be smaller than the slug, though the hole could be enlarged due to the fact that the
plating has been weakened at the point of impact?
Otherwise, have a deliberately weakened steel backing to the round. A standard bullet look to it, though internally has weak-
ish superglue joins. Say 8 fragments of steel joined together. So the 'penetrator' makes a nice hole, and at the same time the
rear of the bullet breaks into peices embedding all the little chunks into the tissue.
I thought teflon was used due to its slippery nature... to easily penetrate objects, and go deeper into the body. Meh.
The third bullet from the left, the conical shaped projectile combined with their equipment to make a solid copper bullet would
probably lend to a high threat level bullet.
I am guessing it would also be possible to produce such a projectile in a lathe. The Ideal would be to lathe the center out of
solid Tungsten or high carbon steel, and have a copper band around it to protect the barrel from wear.
The calibers I was thinking of where more on the lines of common 9mm Luger.
All AP ammo as you said NBK doesn't lend well to "stopping power" when it comes to making any real kills. Adding some form
of poison would be nice, but the problems I associate with most poisons is them becoming airborn during firing, killing the
shooter.
<small>[ December 15, 2002, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: Zyklon_B ]</small>
It's possible to use tungsten powder in swaging, so you could have an extremely hard, and dense, penetrator. And that 3rd
stage bullet is indeed of a good geometery to penetrate. Though, if it had a nipple on it, it'd be even better because it'd be a
KTW (or THV, forgot which) bullet then.
And it's not illegal if you live in the right place and have the right forms. However, I've the feeling he lives in either Oz, or
britania, neither of which like their surfs to be armed.
Or, he could be like me, and can't legally own a firearm as being a felon. But, like me, he doesn't give a fuck what the law
says and is going to get one anyways. :)
Would there be a safe way to combine armor piercing with a poisonous substance in a safe delivery system? Of course in a
bullet a very strong fast acting poison would be required.
Another idea that came to me was drilling the center out of a FMJ, inserting an impact sensitive explosive behind it, and
closing the hole with a steel spike. Theoretically on impact the spike would be driven into the explosive causing an explosion
that would then send then spike forward into the target.
And would it be possible to create an incendiary handgun bullet? I know the military uses bullets with magnesium that is
ignited on impact sending a molten hot glob of metal thru the armor. But to apply that to a smaller bullet such as 9mm or
even 45 would seem to be a difficult option. But then again I am sure that having any fire at all occurring on the bulletproof
vest will definitely render its wearer occupied and easier for extermination.
It'd depend whether there was sufficient delay to allow the bullet to penetrate the vest before expanding.
I just wish that i could own something in that line of self-defense products, by the way has anyone seen the article in the
papers recently about that missing SA-80 from sand-hurst mil academy? apparantly ALL leave was supposed to have been
cancelled due to the urgency of the loss (hahahaha as if !) from experience i know exactly how hard it is to keep the blasted
thing clean enough to function flawlessly (and yes it can function when clean <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" /> )
Keep pummuling them with fast, small sized darts untill they hit something!
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
Developing on NBK's idea of a toxin \ chemical embedded in the bullet... what about something like Thorazine? Does anyone
know how many mg of that stuff you would need to drop someone?
If indeed something like that could work... using a sortof 'super tranquilizer' gun may be effective. High ROF with armor
peircing flechettes - each impregnating a nice amount of tranquilizer into their bloodsystem.
A problem would be the large amount of blood loss might 'drain' the chemical from the body. Blech.
Meh... Just have a 10ga round filled with flechettes and aim for the upper body \ head region. Humor ensues. :D
A rapid fire flechette gun brings to mind the "Super Nail-Gun" from Quake 1. That's my favorite weapon. :)
Flechettes work best in large numbers, like a cloud of needles. Singles aren't much of anything unless you hit the brain/heart.
Im not sure if that was the ricin that took the time to kill him - or the delivery method. (It was the ricin. NBK)
<small>[ December 17, 2002, 01:46 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>
Best way to defeat body armor is with its own design. It's very hot to wear, and in a hot, humid climate, few will want to wear it
for an 8 hour shift.
For a pistol capable defeating armor, consider the AMT Automag line. Yes, I know, rare as can be, but those pistols eat some
serious ammo--including .30 Carbine. .30 Carbine was a poor rifle round, but is overkill in a pistol. (think about it for a
minute.)
Glaser ammo is my preferred frangible. I saw the test reports when it first hit the market. Oh, baby, that did some damage to
the Kevlar!
I've heard rumors that brass bullets are banned in the USA now. I picked up some brass-jacketed HP in 9mm in 1996, I
haven't seen any since. Brass may be an option for a projectile.
The other best way to defeat body armor is to shoot where it isn't. Face, groin, arms, legs. A frangible slug in any of these
areas will severely damage the part. And the face is (more or less) in front of a major nerve trunk (to X-ray the top 2
vertebrae, the patient faces the X-ray tube and opens his mouth wide.)
Remember, we are men. What man can lock, man can unlock.
Harry
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
Fl4PP4W0k December 17th, 2002, 02:57 PM
Hmm... I wonder what effect a Glass bullet would have?
Im guessing that it would have very good flesh (possibly kevlar) penetration at close ranges, and shatter upon bone impact -
small glass shards cannot be seen on Xray. Nasty.
Due to the lightweight nature of glass, for longer range it would be useless - though close range sounds fun (assuming the
use of standard powder load, thus very high velocity).
Armor plating would most likely stop a glass bullet... though I am not certain. Anyone have resources regarding glass\crystal
ammunition? I would look on google, though its 3am and i really should sleep :o
I wonder what mess a 10ga round filled with ever so charming flechettes would MAKE if the entire load happened to
rendezvous with a hapless individuals face :D
So, anything you can share about the hellebore extration will be welcome.
Harry
I'm also wondering how much more effective a non-rotating projectile would be at penetrating kevlar would be, compared to a
standard rotating projectile. A rotating projectile has to force its way through the kevlar weave as well as cutting/breaking any
kevlar strands that grab it, and we know that kevlar is very cut/abrasion resistant.
Medieval soft armour consisted of a jacket stuff with lose (wool IIRC) fibres, despite being the cheapest armour available, it
proved ery effective at stopping arrows. The rotating arrow head would tangle in the fibres, which gradually brought it to a stop.
In quick tests, I've found that 1/4" of wadded cotton wool will stop a .177 air rifle pellet, which would otherwise penetrate your
average reading magazine.
Flak jackets work on a similar principle, often stuffed with lose kevlar fibres.
It all makes me wonder, how much do kevlar vests rely on this "braking" of spinning projectiles to proide protection?
Why was this? Well, the pellet had deformed against the glass, briefly making the centre molten, and firing a very small, very
hot piece of lead back towards him, and penetrating about 3mm into his skin.
Do you think it would be possible to create a similar effect, only firing a slug of lead forwards? If so, it would be highly
penetrative, since it would be small, and travelling much faster than the bullet was. I'm thinking a strong, cup shaped base to
the bullet, with a soft lead front, shaped a little like the rear of an airgun pellet.
Not only is it heavier than lead, and thus have greater kinetic energy/wieght, but is also a liquid, thus capable of flowing
through the weave of the vest at great speed.
Gallium is a solid below body temperature, but becomes a liquid above/about 90F. Bullets get very hot when fired. Thus, you
could have a solid cored jacketed bullet that would than transistion into a liquid cored penetrator after leaving the barrel. This
assumes the bullet absorbs enough heat to be capable of liquifying the gallium before impact with the target.
Also, there's a thread in the (tank) armor forum I posted a link to in the relevant section that discusses research the military
is conductiong on liquid metal penetrators. There's a company that's developed liquid metal alloys and has a $2million
research grant to develop penetrators for tank ammo.
Mind you, it's called liquid metal, but it is actually a solid. The reason it's called "liquid" metal is because the alloys retain the
amorphous characteristics of liquids, rather than crystallizing.
They have a demo of a steel ball bouncing for a couple of minutes after being dropped on a liquid metal plate, long after
similar balls have long since stopped bouncing off of other metals.
Anyways, read the armor forum. The same principles used to defeat tank armor can be applied to body armor as well.
Especially the projectile designs.
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
Energy84 December 17th, 2002, 10:55 PM
Hmmm, I'm not too sure about that Fl4PP4W0k. I guess I've never really shot a paintball gun, but I have built my own single
shot version. I think it would be capable of dropping a deer at 40+ yards with just a steel ball.
But anyways, back to the topic, I think you'd have problems getting a glass projectile to leave the barrel in one piece.
I think you'd have problems getting any ammo to pierce kevlar without either getting military spec ammo (full metal jacket) or
making your own. If I had my own lathe, I would try to make a bullet from HSS (High Speed Steel). It's the same stuff used
for making drill bits and even the cutters used on metal lathes. Problem then would be getting to cut it but I think that it can
be done with carbide tipped cutters.
The intention behind squeeze-bore was to increase projectile velocity while retaining full caliber. With handguns, that's what +P
loading are for.
so would this be the simplist option for defeating someone with High Grade Body Armour or am i way off track?
I am not sure if they would penetrate a kevlar vest, but they would be quite nasty.
I think this is how they work:
When the bullet is fired the inertia from the mecury makes it harder to stop. If the bullet stops suddenly the mecury would still
want to move so the bullet would shatter, sending mecury and lead into the target.
The simplist way to defeat someone in body armor is to not use a weapon they're protected against (gun).
A stream of napalm, cloud of HCN, hail of shrapnel, all these will take out a person, no matter what kind of BA they're wearing.
When a bullet stricks a hard surface, it disintegrates in a virtual cloud of fragments, ranging in size from the microscopic, to
pea sized, depending on type/velocity/angle/etc.
Now, if the bullet had a core of a compressed powder poison, or liquid toxin, in its base, when the bullet impacted a vest
(especially hard plate), it would disintegrate, releasing the toxin in a little cloud outside of the vest, where it could be inhaled.
Very special about this design is the substance that surrounds the core. The front 480.5g tungsten-carbide core and the
second 149g hard steel core are surrounded by very toxic mercury-chloride HgCl2 or Hg2Cl2.
This white to gray substance builds small balls of metallic mercury when heated. It was used to securely fix the hard metal
cores to the outer shell in the first place.
Second, in the moment of impact, these substances change their chemical and thermodynamic properties and act like a liquid
lubricant with high density and viscosity under the energetic shock of impact. This helps the cores to separate smoothly from
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
the outer shell.
The third, and most welcomed effect, is the highly toxic nature of the HgCl2 and Hg2Cl2. These are very toxic in their solid
property (0.2-0.4g fatal dose), but when they evaporate in the heat as the core is penetrating, they form a very toxic cloud of
mercury vapors inside the hit vehicle, killing or severely damaging the health of the crew.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">So perhaps you would want to make a slug of
compressed mercuric chloride, instead of only tungsten. It'd still be very dense, could have a tunsten penetrator core, and be
lethally toxic as well. :D
<small>[ December 19, 2002, 05:39 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>
<small>[ December 20, 2002, 01:50 AM: Message edited by: Charlie Workman ]</small>
This is the future. Piggies armored, literally, head to toe with IIIA armor that'll stop anything short of a main battle rifle.
Sure, the military gets first dibs on this stuff, but it won't take long to trickle down to the street pork.
If only my heros (LA Bank Robbers) had this kind of armor. Though I think whoever makes this stuff got the idea from my
heros since THEY were covered almost head to toe in armor years before this stuff came out. :)
"Research indicates that important characteristics of a penetrator are its length and density."
The longer, and heavier, the better. As the length to diameter ratio increases, the penetration ability increases. But the
increase is non-linear, rather it's greater. So, a penetrator that it twice as long goes more than twice as deep.
As with the H-rod, it is expected that an equal-mass, equal-outer-diameter cruciform or triform rod would outperform a solid,
circular cross-section rod of the same material in terms of RHA penetration at high velocity.</font><hr /></blockquote><font
size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">This would be useful when engaging enemy armor at oblique angles, such as when
they're prone or at at an angle. Whereas the normal bullet might richochet off without penetration or injury, the shape of these
penetrators lets them "dig" into the armor, without breaking up.
They still come to a sharp point for penetration, but the body is geometric for rigidity.
In order to be able to penetrate high level armor with a handgun caliber, you may have to resort to a saboted long-rod
tungsten/uranium penetrator, similar to that used by tanks.
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
<small>[ December 20, 2002, 06:31 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>
If i remember it correctly the mentionend percussion mixture can be pressed to different densities giving it different
properties(sensivity). I don't know if it's suitable.
Care would have to be taken so that the accelerating rod will not set of the primer mix and at the same time making the
bullet sensitive enough.
The other design makes use of the casing allowing a long penetrator rod. Don't know how stable it would be in flight.
If a non circular penetrator were used, the remaning space in the bullet(since you will most likely drill a hole for it) could be
filled with mercury, incendiary, explosive or poison.
<small>[ December 20, 2002, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>
The soft bullet around the rod would would flatten on impact, squeezing itself tightly around the rod, inhibiting penetration. Or,
if it was hard enough to resist flattening, it would present a much larger surface area of resistance than the rod alone.
In order to work properly, a rod must be fired from a NON-rifled barrel. Any errors in axial alingment would be greatly amplified
by the very high rotational forces exerted by rifling on a projectile. Bullets spin at over 100,000RPM.
This is why tank guns are smooth bore. In our case, using a geometric penetrator would simply the task since the shape would
act like natural fins, saving the added effort of machining them.
Since tungsten and uranium are rather exotic, you could use steel. I've seen the above mentioned shapes stocked in
industrial supply catalogs, so that's a ready source. After proper hardening, they'd be ready for use in penetrators.
Plastic sabots are available in many calibers. Adapting them to firmly hold a penetrators during acceleration, while still being
capable of smooth seperation right out the barrel, may be a bit more difficult.
You'd want to use as powerful a powder load as your gun could withstand since increased velocity increases penetration. And
you'll need every bit of speed to compensate for the lack of DU/W in your penetrator.
I doubt one would be able to coat a penetrator with any kind of toxin or poison. It'd either be destroyed on firing from the
intense heat of the propellant gases, or rubbed off during penetration of the vest.
This is not my feild of knowledge, but if you used a hollowpoint bullet where the hollow diameter is larger than rod(in the front)
wouldn't the bullet mushroom, thus not squeezing itseld around the rod(it would still lower speed compared to if the rod was
free flying, but it allows you to use a normal bullet as a vehicle).
And maybe using groves in the rod would allow a poison to follow the rod, maybe not the most sensitive organic ones but still.
Tungsten powder seems to cost around 11 $/100g from a search at google. The problem seems to be that the powder when it
impacts must fracture into medium sized fragments for good penetration.
Also, if the penetrator doesn't tumble or travel at sufficent speed. It has low stopping power.
Maybe a shotgun would be suitable for your type of sabots?
And maybe a hollow projectile could be used, thin walled pipe with sharp edges, cutting through the kevlar fibers.
Well, well, I don't know. But I do know that there are alot of patents on the subjects.
<small>[ December 20, 2002, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>
Weapon: Handgun
Caliber: 9mm to 45 ACP, not 44 Mag or 50 AE
Range: Maximum 25 yards
Target: Human, light body armor, no steel plate.
Now about the bullet squeezing into the steel rod, that can be easily avoided by making sure the is a rim around the entrance
of the steel spike that would allow the steel spike to move forward while the outside copper lead are pealed back by the vest.
This effect can be further increased by pre-made cuts in the bullet that will allow the bullet itself to rip apart on pre-determined
lines.
If you notice in the above bullets, a post is standing up out of the center of the bullet, while the rest of the bullet has pealed
back.
If the penetrator is still attached to the bullet for it's entire flight, it's losing critical velocity because of drag from the bullet.
A penetrator has to be as aerodynamic as possible to maintain as much kinetic energy as possible. And the energy the
propellant expends to accelerate that lead mass up to speed would have been better spent in accelerating the penetrator a
few extra hundred FPS.
And, if the bullet was holding the bullet until impact, when it started to break apart, might it not cause a skewing of the
penetrator? This would decrease penetration.
The metal molybdenum acts like a lubricant under pressure, so coating a penetrator with this may increase penetration
against metal hard plate. It's readily available as a anti-fouling coating material for bullets.
Additionally... there is a book from Uncle Fester... its called vest busters and
it covers making steel rods into bullets with a lathe and coating them with
teflon so they dont eat your barrel. Once you get an undersized bullet you
acid etch and then dunk and bake your new AP bullets. I don't know if this
is on the FTP site or not... let me know if you guys want a copy... it might
take a day or two to get the scanner up and running and to find the book.
I greatly welcome inupt on wether the steel ball method would work,
if so you can have AP ammo quick and cheap :)
ALSO.... NBK2000 if you dont mind the inquiry... what were you busted for?
Why not make an 80% reciever... you can get a 1911 frame for like $150 and
complete it yourself by cutting the slide rails... of course you have to buy
the rest of the parts yourself so it will cost a couple hundred....
Right now, a very inexpensive and easy option (at least for those of us in the states) is to obtain a CZ 52 pistol chambered for
7.62 x 25. Then buy a lot of .223 Timbs. This is a 7.62x25 cartridge that has a 50gr .223 bullet saboted into it. Velocity is
over 2000 fps and compares favorably with the .224 boaz w/o the LEO only restrictions.
pistol=$150 at most
ammo=$35 for 50 cartridges
both prices are retail
Besides bullet-proof vests, kevlar is also used to make objects of fiberglass i.e. glass-reinforced plastic, along with glass and
nylon and mylar fibers. The fibers are embedded in a catalytic-setting plastic, usually a polyester resin, which polymerizes to a
solid with the aid of a metal-soap catalyst like cobalt naphthenate (the Co salts of the carboxylic acids derived from oxidation
of hydrogenated toluene or methylnaphthalene, the "naphtha" produced in oil refining). This is especially done, with molds, to
make hulls and decks for small GRP boats, or on top of a wooden plank or ply hull, and shower cubicles. Such uses would
appear to be inconsistent with the statement about kevlar being liable to degradation by contact with water.
Bugger.
I talked to a reputible engineer, Bill Penn from the Indian Head Naval Warfare Center,
Indian Head Maryland USA, that he tested 30 year old kevlar was tested and
stayed within the NIJ specs for which it was rated. The samples were kept in storage
and not exposed to water or UV. I really cant imagine this guy's a liar, I worked in
the same installation. In fact he mentioned something about kevlar getting marginally
stronger (or was that stiffer, Im 99% sure that it was stronger but regardless it held
up). Anyway this test data represents leftovers in a gov. storage facility... about as
ideal condition old kevlar as it gets.
Also there is an ammo manufacture on the web that uses normal pressure loads
but lightweight rounds to defeat kevlar. They offer "tatical" 9mm and .40 and im
pretty sure .357 was available... I dont remember the website... their ammo was
reasobaly priced and you diddent have to be a LEO to get it.
Oh BTW, I own and carry a CZ-52 and I use Surplus ammo in it... it can defeat IIa
armor on its own. (At least exceed the rated backface deformation, if not cut through
on its own. If you buy one replace the firing pin and cheazy bakelite grips with
something nice. (Their firing pin will break if you dry fire a couple of times). I have
largely replaced it as my carry weapon with a Beretta 92FS 9mm because of the
higher magazine capacity. YAY all the Americans can bet their hi cap mag fix on
in just 4 more days!!! (Assault weapons ban expires!!!)
When I worked as an A&P mechanic, we had a tool that would test the integrity of airplane fabric so it could tell you when to
replace said fabric. If you could rig up something like that for a vest, you could store it and use it with confidence for a long
time. Remember also that even a brand new vest will not stop a sharp knife.....think about all the sharp little knives that get
into the fabric while you wear it....(sand etc)
Bugger: you are correct ----vests are rated by level---1,2,3,4 and so on and this tells you which bullets they should (SHOULD)
stop. I am picking my own brain here and could be wrong but I believe it goes like this:
1=.22lr to 45 acp---all similar low pressure blunt tipped bullets
2=.357 mag to .44mag (maybe 454) and similar high pressure blunt bullets
3=.223 to .308 to 30-06 and similar high pressure AP type(pointed) bullets but usually not within a certain range. i.e. a .308
at 10 yards will still penetrate the front but maybe not the back (small consolation, I know)
They are also subdivided by letter---1,1a,2,2a etc
(be gentle in the criticism please, my memory is about as sharp as a .50 cal ball)
Also the style and strength of the trauma plate must be factored in. the plat e in a class 2 may stop the .308 but the rest of
the vest wont....
Ok, enuff already...next subject, the hollow point thingy. I am not a fan of gimmicked ammo. I wont claim that it wont work,
I'll just say "WHY?" when you can buy perfectly good stuff over the counter.....as far as improvised ammo( for those of us who
cant buy it) I am a big fan of sabots. 40-60gr .223 bullets saboted into anything that will drive it to 2000 fps is going to be
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
much more dependable than any gimmicked blunt nose bullet. There is a 30-06 load called the xcellerator (?) that pushes
that .223 to 4000 +fps!! No vest will stop that.... check out what FN is doing with the 5.7x28 load.
Damn, I just re read this thing and it goes on and on. I sound like my 7th grade science teacher---blah blah blah blah--lol so
it stops NOW.
Allso they sell steel arrow heads could be good, here is one exzample from the web, "DRAWN STEEL POINTS 20 grains, 5/16"
O.D."
These are simple hollow semi blunt glue-on arrow heads.
That could be filled with lead (or what ever) and shot from a sabot with
good rezults (I think).
Or used to make steel core AP ammo, that would have the necessary weaght(,kinetic energy,mass,or what not) to push
through the kevlar.
THREAT LEVEL II-A Barrel Length (inches) Velocity fps Velocity mps
.22 Mag. 40 Grain Solid Point 6 1180 360
.38 Cal. Special 125 Grain SJHP+P 6 1028 314
.38 Cal. Special 158 Grain Lead +P 6 1090 332
.38 Cal. Special 110 Grain JHP+P 6 1235 377
.45 Cal. Auto 230 Grain M.C. 5 810 247
.357 Mag. 158 Grain JSP 4 1250 381
.357 Mag. 158 Grain Lead 4 1250 381
.357 Mag.158 Grain Lead SWC 4 1253 382
.41 Mag. 210 Grain Lead 8 3/8 1080 329
9MM 95 Grain JSP 4 1250 381
9MM 100 Grain JSP 4 1250 381
9MM 124 Grain FMJ 4 1090 332
9MM 115 Grain JHP 4 1160 354
9MM 147 Grain Subsonic JCE 5 1050 319
9MM 147 Grain JHP 5 1050 319
10MM 170 Grain JHP 5 1172 357
10MM 200 Grain Full Jacket TC 5 1072 327
btw, nice rating list. I searched for one earlier but Point Blank would'nt let me in their site and I basically got bored and quit.
Very nice, much more comprehensive than my list. lol...
abtw, In 3 weeks I pick up my new cz52....looking forward to it! Been wantin one for about 16 years....
www.bulletproofme.com/Ballistic_Protection_Levels.shtml
Interestingly enough, in direct contrast to what I was taught as a vest salesman, they do claim this:
"NIJ tests failed to demonstrate a ny s ignificant differences in 10-year-o ld arm or, rega rdless of the exten t of use or app arent
physical condition
The warranty exists solely to limit the ma nufacturer's liability on the product and is not a reflection of the anticipated service
life of the product.
...Guide to Police Body Armor, National Law Enforcement and Corrections Technology Center (NLECTC)"
Harry's post hit the nail right on the head. For non-oz members, do some reading on our outlaw Ned Kelly. He got done in by
black powder projectiles whilst wearing armour made from plow blades. They took his legs out, and finished the job off with a
noose.
As far as concealability goes, any pistol's going to do the job in those circumstances as long as you can hit the target
Looking into the frangible ammo defeating soft kevlar issue, I found this article...
It seems like we might be onto something. NIJ is investigating the issue.
The problem with Second Chance vests is the second major product alert to surface
with ballistic vests in the past year.
In stories published in September and October 2002, Gun Week revealed a controversy
over another brand of body armor, Point Blank, produced by a firm in Florida. It is not
associated with Second Chance.
At the time, a spokesman for one body armor manufacturer called the revelation
a huge story.
It seems like a submachine gun in this caliber would be the ultimate concealable ANTI-PIGGY weapon other than the AR-15
pistol I guess. What do yall think about the AR-15 pistol? Would it be accurate with such a short barrel. It seems like the
submachine gun with armor piercing would be better because of more concealable and more ammo you can carry.
http://www.gunblast.com/images/Bushmaster-Pistol/Mvc-017F.jpg
I will admit it is interesting and would be a riot to shoot, and handloading could pump the velocity up a litttle....2100 fps would
be nice.....but I will now also refer you to numbers 1,2 and 4......
simply put a fast spear point is more likely to penetrate than a slow brick. however (as we see with the 12 guage) a lot of
weight can make up for velocity and lack of shape. however (again!) that 12 gauge slug probably wont penetrate at 50 yds
while the .223 will......
so, apply the above to your favorite cartridge along with comparing velocity, weight and shape to the published tables and (
while this is simplistic in the extreme) you can get a pretty good guess ast how it will perform.
Say it penetrates the vest plus 3" of ballistic gelatin backing. What's that mean? In real terms, a projectile requires the ability
to penetrate 3-4" of ballistic gelatin before it will even BREAK THROUGH THE SKIN!
Remember, skin is elastic and backed by flexible organs, not rigid like ballistic gelatin.
Now, after expending 4" of BG worth of energy just to break the skin, it still needs to penetrate at least 8" (more like a foot)
to reach vital organs to kill the piggy wearing the vest.
So, in recap, frangibles aren't shit unless you blow off the pigs kevlar'd nuts. :p
http://pie.hotusa.org/exotic.htm
Another idea for pistols would be to install a small carbide centerdrill into a high velocity lightweight pistol round like 10mm or
5.7. this could be accomplished accuratlly by using a small hobbie lathe like a sherline, taig or Prazi
An FMJ bullet securly gripped in a collet could be partially drilled out with a centerdrill of the same size as the one you plan to
install. Said carbide centerdrill should then be pressed lightly into the lead thereby seating the rear flutes securly into the
bullet.
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=369-2205&PMPXNO=944992&PARTPG=INLMK32
So while DU is out of our grasp W is easy to buy in exactly the right form for making KE weapons. Clearly W that isn't sintered
is better then the powder you can buy in the reloading shops as the "true" metal will not tend to break up into power.
As for Teflon as far as I know it does not help defeat a vest in any way shape or form. The reason it is used is to prevent too
much damage to the barrel. For amateur explosive knowledge the E&W is the best the world has ever seen but for general gun
information we don't hold a candle to sites such as thehighroad.org. Luckily they can ignore us and we can learn much from
them. As proof here is a thread about the "Teflon Myth":
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=120866&highlight=teflon+myth
As per my understanding(backed by reloaders on that site) thinking the Teflon has much of anything to the penetration of the
bullet is as silly as thinking the sabot has anything to do with the penetration of the DU rod. It's just a carrier system and
nothing more.
I hope that, with the ability to buy a few inexpensive W rods some experiments could be done with 12ga shotgun shells and
PE plastic or fiberglass sabots. My(untested) idea is to take a rod and do maths to find out how best to cut it down by using
our wonderful USA Army's own tank KE rounds(and related literature about them) as a general guide.
For example I would wish to know the most effective length/diameter ratio and how the fins should be shaped and such details
as the matter of a thin metal or plastic coating on the KE rod itself - should it have one and if so what material?
As for fins I think it would be very impractical to try and make the rod and the fins from one large rod of W. This would be very
hard to do and waste material. Instead I think a rod could have a sort of ring cut about 2mm wide and 4mm deep near one
end of the rod; this would then have a tiny forward groove connecting to this ring made with a mill to prevent the fins from just
spinning around the ring and making them ineffective. This would allow you to have a place where fiberglass, carbon fiber,
plastic or even metal fins could "latch on" to the rod. Otherwise it would slide off. This would let you make identical fins from a
mold that would obviously not damage the W rod yet not require machining W any more then you had to.
Like always testing could be done but perhaps a powerful epoxy could attach the fins instead of the fins being molded around
the ring - but this might make each penetrator slightly uneven and thus make testing harder.
Then comes the perhaps easier task of researching the sabot itself and crafting a jig or mold to make them from plastic or
fiberglass and then figuring out the proper powder charge, using wadding and crimping the shell. If it all works well it may be
no longer then a normal slug. It would also have an amazing effect on armor; all in an easy to reproduce(once you have the
jigs and materials) design with any pump or breach loading shotgun sans choke of course.
In fact, if it worked well the greatest expense of the whole project might just be buying the armor needed to test its full
potential. While I have dreamed about NBK's idea of the impulse rocket scaled down for urban warfare and door breaching a
sabot would at least give you the armour defeating capabilities and require less of an investment into machine tools and
research then those wonderful impulse rockets.
BTW NBK - it would seem some of your posts on the impulse rocket are gone in the forum crash - I have read the patent of
course but I would be very happy if you would bring up the subject again as I think it is one of the most realistic and valuable
non explosive weapon ideas here - I mean it is a point and shoot 2000m/s steel rocket with minimal machining requirements
and no fears of catching a face of flame like with conventional rockets! One day the cops may seriously ask suspects if they
have "a rocket in your pocket?"
If your sabot petals unevenly disengage from the penetrator in even the slightest bit, this kicks your penetrator off at a
tangent from the aimpoint.
Depending on distance and velocity, the rod will then either take off on the new tangent, or impact the target off-point, greatly
reducing penetration.
Also, symetrically round penetrators are now being thought of as passe'. H-rod penetrators have greater lateral strength for
less weight, allowing higher velocities. :)
++++++++++=
Gy2 discussions:
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/water-cooler/2076-legality-casting-molds-full-auto-receivers.html?
highlight=gyrojet#post34955
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/water-cooler/2076-legality-casting-molds-full-auto-receivers.html?
highlight=gyrojet#post35015
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/pyrotechnics/457-spin-stabilised-model-rockets-5.html?highlight=gyrojet#post57881
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/improvised-weapons/642-tri-grenade-2.html?highlight=gyrojet#post12237
This "H-rod" is interesting but after much googling I can find nothing at all! It seems "hrod" is some sort of non english word
but nothing about KE weapons. Do you have a more specific search term for me?
This is quoted from the website where there is a wealth of other info on this gun.
http://www.american180.com/history/index.html
Ironically, this same intimidating 1500 rounds per minute (1800 rounds per minute when chambered for .22 short magnum)
pounding action of the American 180, which could easily demolish a cinder block wall, also had the power to defeat most soft
body armor that certain prison guards wear. For this reason, some State Penitentiaries retired the American 180 shortly after
they were acquired.:D
With an ammunition that has a hollow point, theoretically could you put in a small titanium core? Like a portion of a titanium
bolt. If inserted inside the hollowpoint it should make it through the vest. Or would a heavier metal work better? Such as cast
iron.
I would think energy of the impact of the round has as much to do with the round's material for penetration.
A low energy round made of a hard heavy metal has just as small of a chance of penetration as a high energy round made of
solid lead. Penetration is almost always a combination of the two.
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/
The specific year and name of the file are long forgotten, but that's where I found out about it.
There's enough stuff there to keep your brain buzzing for months. :)
With an ammunition that has a hollow point, theoretically could you put in a small titanium core? Like a portion of a titanium
bolt.
If you yourself understand that penetration requires KE then why would you suggest such a low density metal instead of say a
ball of tungsten shot or even a small steel ball bearing? Perhaps I am missing something here but I don't see how titanium or
cast iron are good choices at all.
Definitely think FMJ for penetration, though, keeping KE as your close friend.
Many people have already conducted testing of the milsurp steel core FMJ "non-AP" ammo from combloc countries and found
penetration to be similar to that of regular lead core. They used steel as core for the bullet as it was cheaper than lead at the
time of production, but the steel was not in a hardened state. So, merely adding a steel core isn't even going to guarantee the
job on anything armoured, vest or otherwise, unless the armour was already penetrable by it's all-lead core brother of the
same caliber. (7.62 x 39 against regular class I piggie armour, for example). :D
Naturally, the bullet would have to first be pulled prior to induction heating.
Or maybe not.
If the powder doesn't go up high enough to actually touch the bullet, and you keep the neck of the case cold, then maybe you
could get away with hardening just the tip of the steel core?
I'm guessing he's going with the hardness of titanium being used to breach a softer barrier, with the lead providing the mass
for penetration.
Regardless of who you meant by "WE", T. Medic, schedule IIIa with multiple trauma plates wont stop everything all the time.
The IIIa vest only protects up to a .44 mag handgun round, IIRC, so the .308 that overly hyped-up tacticool sniper ninja-
piggie brethren aim at us civies from safe and hidden distances while praying for a kill order will easily do the job under most
circumstances. And at closer range as I would more likely be, If I can drill that trauma plate once or twice then I'm gonna get
them with my third, right in the vitals, if I were so inclined. But I'd be even more inclined to just take out their grape with one
shot, anyway, or knock their ass over with a good one to the chest then go to work on their legs to draw the rest of the pork
out of cover for some good old hypothetical fun... But all that is neither here nor there as what I would do hypothetically
speaking is not within context of this thread.
But I must ask a question since you sparked my curiosity, even if it is off topic. Assuming you are indeed a medic (guessing
from your namesake) and not PORK and still feel you require the layer of protection a scedule IIIa vest actually does offer,
why not just move to a better area to perform your service to society? I would.
Only sociopaths and niggers shoot unarmed medics because they don't care or don't know better, respectively. Why shoot YOU
when you cause no threat? My guess is you'd wear a vest as a medic because you work in areas with more niggers than
sociopaths, so...
Me, I'd only feel the need for a vest if and when the pork comes around "post catastrophy New Orleans style" to collect up all
the guns from self-sufficient surviving citizens. MOLON LABE! After such an event you could bet I'd wear one if I had one.
Knowing I could kill all my enemies who also wear one with an AKM, SKS, or similar; trauma plates or not, well that's
something to hold near and dear.
-------------------------------
Now, back on topic:
While browsing thru the copy of "Firearms Identification, volume I, second addition" which Dankstavegas was kind enough to
upload to Rapidshare, I noticed they made mention of solid turned or cast steel bullets...
They mention it for it's ballistic identification problems, but I see some better potential here for hardening the entire projectile
and seating it within the charged and primed casing with a simple reloading press. They even mention briefly the option of a
PAPER jacket to ensure the proper spin from the rifling (and to protect it somewhat, I suppose. I just skimmed the book
sectionally, though).
It'll eventually wreak some serious damage to the lands of your rifling after some use, no doubt, but are you gonna want to
keep that barrel around after you penetrate a piggy's vest, anyway? Likely the whole weapon will be disposed of, as weapons
are a tool, and tools leave telltale marking on objects when they are used, much to the criminal user's chagrin.
Easy, affordable (with the common but right garage tooling), and very penetrating.
I'd take note of the LA Bank-robber's folly of "over penetration" and stagger my rounds accordingly to ensure I maim/kill/
remove-from-opposition whatever with doubletaps, though, since we're always speaking hypothetically...
http://www.world.guns.ru/smg/smg49-e.htm
First, the melting point of the other metals in the bullet. One would have to make sure that it is higher than the hardening
temp for the steel used in the core.
Second, heat expansion. If the different metals used in the bullet have different heat expansion rates, then the core and the
jacket would end up having different sizes when heated. I'm not sure exactly how this would affect the bullet but I can't
imagine that it would be good either for accuracy or for the gunbarrel.
I think discarding sabot is the best way to make an AP round for a rifle.
I know there is sub caliber sabot ammo for sniper rifles cal. 7.62X51 (.308W). I haven't been able to find a good picture of its
cross section but the sabot is made of plastic and aluminium. One of these round will easily penetrate any body armor
normally worn by law enforcement, and most LAVs as well.
Using a bullet extractor, remove the sabot. Toss the soft nose 55 gr bullet in favor of a like- diameter AP slug of your choice.
Re seat with the sabot.
Go for as much length as possible for more weight and a better ballistic co-efficient.
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
These sabots can be used in any .30 cal. round.
And as a bonus, if the sabot itself isn't recovered by the forensic lab folks, the bullet is untraceable to the weapon that fired it.
After all, if the bullet is pristine, they'll know it was saboted, and search for the sabot. If the bullet is marked up by barrel
rifling, why would they bother looking for a sabot?
How many people have ever been caught using pre-fired saboted rounds?
Oh, and you can paper patch a bullet, instead of using a plastic sabot. The paper burns and disintegrates in flight, leaving
NOTHING to find, even if they knew to look for it. :p
'Tacmedic' sounds something similar like 'Tactical Team Medic'. Hmmm, pork? Anyways...
Teflon was originally added to the KTW bullets, not to aid penetration by any kind of lubricating effect (zero, BTW), but by
'grabbing' onto a sloped surface that it might otherwise richochet off of, allowing it to bite into the target and penetrate.
Anyways, when dealing with SWAT piggies, follow the three F's:
:D
Attached is a copy of another boards discussion on the subject. Turns out that the gaming community has some interest in our
subject matter, too. :)
I like the idea of an already fired bullet. Finding an armor piercing one in good enough shape might be a challenge.
If you were looking in a range used by paramilitary, etc. you might score. A dodge could be that you're "mining" lead for
reloading, I suppose...
The techs would be confused, alright. Bound to raise eyebrows when pulled out of dude's chest- that is if there's enough bullet
left to analyze. But they'd never match it up, and that's what counts.
Wonder what's the best way to keep a bullet from being matched to the barrel that fired it (Besides destroying it)? Maybe this
could be raised on another thread someday.
Also, grammer and i/I. I highlighted the offending mistakes. Next time is the last time.
Especially when you consider that, until body armor covers the body (literally) head-to-toe, there will always be a soft spot to
target.
:D :p
People shoot medics to steal the morphine, and to eliminate witnesses, both the patient and the medic themselves.
Jumping back a ways, shotguns are always tested from 2 feet with birdshot, as closer than that they act like a slug, and tear
through the vest. A 1A vest will stop BB or smaller at 2 feet, but likely fail the trauma rating. Beyond 5 yards I'd say you would
be fine. With something like SG, where the balls are about .38 calibre, I'd suggest that at a distance of 5 yards your vest
would withstand that if it would withstand a .38.
If you have a lathe, then turning your own bullets is about as easy a task as you will ever have. Use drill rod, and simply use a
running head to support it, then shape and part, and repeat. Harden the drill rod afterwards. Or use stainless (or exotic) rod
and a carbide tool.
Production of such a tiny round for military only use was impossible with standard punched methods, so it was decided that
greater accuracy and flexibility could be achieved using a center-feed CNC lathe. The correct rod could be installed and the
bullet heads turned out at speed.
Materials tested included tungsten, steel, stainless steel, titanium, various copper alloys and even some ceramics. The best
results came from bronze, AFAIK. Hard enough to count, heavy enough to reach. (Recall that the CRISAT spec is 1.6mm of
titanium plate backed by 20 layers of Kevlar weave)
They have air pocket that destabilizes the bullet on contact and steel core like needle.
;)
What about case hardening a steel round? A steel round that has been hardened by dipping it in extremely fine carbon powder
when it is hot. Fill it with lead, and it might act as a kind of injector for the liquid hot lead on impact.
Though the under-arm gap is indeed a vulnerable spot, getting a flanking shot from below their armpits would be difficult,
since they're moving and presenting face-forward towards your likely hiding spots.
You could shoot through their arms to reach the vitals in the torso, but newer vests have shoulder pads that come down over
the arm to prevent that.
Besides that, vests used by SWAT and such have a heavy duty trauma plates. For example, slug from a 12 ga. shotgun can
easily kill somebody in a normal BP vest even if no Kevlar layer is penetrated - simply, as you mentioned, by a massive blunt
trauma - crushed sternum is not very good for your health.
I know a cop who, wearing a SWAT-type vest, was shot from ten meters away with a slug from a 12. shotty. The slug fractured
the vest's outer ceramic plate, cracked three of cop's ribs, knocked him flat on the ground and winded him. However, he was
able to draw a handgun and shot the attacker dead when he was cocking the shotgun for a second shot.
Level IIIA? That's very high threat level armor, capable of stopping some rifle bullets. The Tokarev is capable of penetating
most vests, but a level IIIA would be border line I'd think. Though solid steel core would penetrate the best.
No, it's not. See http://freedom.broken-irc.net/NIJ-STD-010104.pdf for the testing standards for bulletproof vests.
In order to work properly, a rod must be fired from a NON-rifled barrel. Any errors in axial alingment would be greatly amplified
by the very high rotational forces exerted by rifling on a projectile. Bullets spin at over 100,000RPM.
This is why tank guns are smooth bore. In our case, using a geometric penetrator would simply the task since the shape would
act like natural fins, saving the added effort of machining them.No, a tank barrel is smooth bore because rifling can only
effectively/efficiantly apply stabilization to projectiles of a certain length:diameter ratio, and tank rounds are just too big.
Better results are seen with aerodynamically stabilized projectiles.
You're overthinking(and underthinking) this situation. If you're firing your weapon at someone wearing a vest, then the shit
has hit the fan. You aren't going to have the opportunity to use poison, because 99 times out of 100 your target have the
ability to return fire. So, forget poison, it's not for this application, and it sounds rather k3wlish when you look at the feasibility.
Problem: You're shooting at someone wearing a vest. He's most likely armed, and he may or may not be firing at you
already, and might have you overpowered.
Solutions:
1) Fire tight groups into the chest while advancing, get a headshot when you can. I don't care what hes wearing, hes still going
to be feeling those rounds behind the vest, see http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm for what I mean. And, you might
manage to punch through if your groups are tight enough.
2) Systematically disable your target, and advance as possible. Fire at what's exposed: arms, legs, the head. And again, if
you've got a clear shot to the chest, take one or two. Wind the fucker, because it makes it much harder for him to return fire.
3) USE A RIFLE! I'm sorry, but a pistol is no match to a rifle, save few circumstances. And don't go full auto unless you're within
40 meters(actually, at any distance that you can't hold each round on a silhouette of a target) because otherwise you won't hit
what you're shooting at very reliably. Well placed shots always beat shots that don't even go near your target.
You'll also do much better using standard self defense rounds with reliable, tested ballistics and penetration. I'm a real fan of
Hornady TAP rounds( http://hornady.com/ ), cor-bon rounds, and for .40 s&w you can't go wrong with 180 grain Remington
"Golden Sabers". Hot loads, but a double tap will put anyone on their ass, vest or no vest.
Also, it just occured to me that your target is dynamic in a way that can work for you. A vest isn't going to be doing your target
much good if it's exposing it's side to you, as in a Weaver stance, which is what I personally use and is very popular(although
the "modern" isosceles stance is gaining popularity again)... because there's little protection offered there, and if you hit
someones rib cage with a heavy round there, they're going to get winded, or end up with cracked ribs.
PS: You aren't rambo, and you're going to need to reload. Practice, practice, practice.
Load buckshot pellets with this, skip fire it under their cars, and give 'em a minute to die. :)
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
Teflon and Moly have ZERO to do with vest penetration. Lubrication has no bearing on penetration. The hardness, geometery,
and velocity of the penetrator DOES.
I was at a range about a year back with a friend, and there was a guy there with his chronograph. Naturally, we went over and
spoke to him. He invited us to shoot with him, and we gladly excepted. That day I fired 15 rounds of 180gr, .40 Hornady TAP
rounds out of a glock 23, and got an average muzzle velocity of 955FPS, slightly higher than I should have gotten ( hornady
claims 950FPS. ).
Then, the guy (I think his name was Tim) asked if we wanted to try moly coating some of our rounds. I said sure, and he
proceeded to apply moly to the exposed portion of about 30 rounds. After he was done, I reloaded my mag, and went through
a clip again, and got an average velocity of 1150FPS, a good 200FPS faster than I was supposed to be getting.
Now, I'm too lazy to do real math right now, so I'll do this slightly ghetto. Hornady claims 361FLBS @ 950FPS(muzzle), 326 @
903(50 yards), and 297 @ 862(100 yards).
((361 / 950) + (326 / 903) + (297 / 862)) / 3 = an average of .361855 footpounds per FPS the round was fired at.
Given that, my rounds went from ~361 foot pounds of energy, to ~416.13325 foot pounds. Granted, this is an inaccurate
measurement(well, technically a computation, not even a measurement), but it's close enough to what real world figures would
be.
That does have something to do with vest penetration. I'm sure you could get better results with handloads and fully coated
rounds, not to mention moving up to 280gr in .45 ACP... although, there's a larger surface area there, so it might not do any
better. Increasing the barrel length from 4 inches to 4.5 or 5 would increase velocity some more, and thus energy put into a
.40 calibur circumference. You could also up the weight of your projectile, I've seen a .40 USP tactical(5 inch barrel) take 26
280gr rounds without a failure @ a steady 910FPS, or a kaboom... and Tim just grinned at us.
No.
Because that just means that the bullet gets flattened out all that more quickly.
Your bullet has to be capable of penetrating the vest by being HARD enough and SHARP enough to break through the weave
and not deform while doing so.
Only after those two problems are covered do you then come to the matter of pushing it FAST enough to do so.
Also, please notice the mention I made of paralysis of the extremitites in seconds caused by SC. In less than 10 seconds, all
motor functions to the limbs (arms/legs) ceases, rendering the victim unable to stand or move.
It takes a minute to stop their breathing, but they'll be helpless far quicker than that.
Watch the end of the LA Bank Robbers. If the cops had been shooting such bullets, the gun fight would have been over before
it even begun.
Remember when Emil was hiding behind the car and shooting at the cops? It took a couple minutes for him to give up, even
after being shot multiple times in the feet and legs. Not so with SC bullets.
As for poison, it's still not a real viable solution, what if you have to take a shot within 10 feet and end up breathing some of it
in yourself?
Personally, I would have dealt with the target behind the cover of a vehicle situation by pumping a few mags into the gas tank,
or using effective tactics such as advancing fire w/ covering fire. I don't know the exact angle the engagement was in, but if I
had to guess, and he was smart, he had an engine block inbetween him and bullets, so flanking would have been an option
too.
edit: I also want to say, while the first FMJ might not penetrate, subsequent rounds may, and if not, I still wanna see someone
up and walking/operating their weapon after taking ~416.13325+ footpounds of energy to the chest, multiple times. Thats
easily enough to crack ribs behind a 3a vest, and turn a level 4 trauma plate into little pieces/dust(or shrapnel! Spall damage,
anyone?)
As far as where to shoot upon a target, most speak of the head shot as effective.
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
It is, but few think of how hard that is to actually hit.
A target Five Times the size and very unprotected is the area of the Groin & Thighs.
First as a target area any hit will attract the bad guys attention!
Next, medically speaking there are some major arteries for bleedout, and Femor arteries can bleed out in just a few minutes
without intervention, and destruction of the femur or hip is a major stoppage factor.
The fact that said target is more likely to be stationary exists as well, heads bob & weave during firefights, the stated target
area does not move as much.
And if you have struck the target within that zone, their mobility is greatly reduced, as compared to a grazed head for
example, moving with a grazed thigh will be extremely painfull, the muscle groups will be in shock.
As far as creating a projectile to penetrate body armor itself, I would suggest a small lathe, a BRONZE projectile and the
conical tip as was seen in the photograph.
Bronze would be easy on the barrel, lighter weight so it could be pushed faster; and has been proven out in actual use by
some people who wanted to do a withdraw from an armored car...
The Brennke Shape shotgun slug in Bronze, penetrated armored glass (windshield) killing the driver, and allowing a small
group of money collectors to help themselves!
http://www.firearmsid.com/Bullets/bullet1.htm
And I believe that most machined AP bullets are made from brass, not bronze, though both are used.
How on earth you figure on breathing in the poison from an encapsulated round? :confused:
Also, I want to point out that brass ammunition doesn't fire well from polygonally rifled barrels, if you do make handloads,
keep this in mind. Brass jacketed ammunition also gives shit accuracy out of every weapon I've ever fired them out of, so I
assume the same would be true of an all brass round. Anyways, wouldn't brass be a bad decision because of how soft it is?
The brass used in a THV bullet is not the same used in making the casing, or a candlestick.
I'm not exactly sure as to why they use it, but I think it has to do with being soft enough to engage the barrels rifling, while
having the density and ductility to penetrate.
And the only weapons that I know of with polygonal barrels are Glocks and HK's (though surely you can get aftermarket for any
gun), so why would that be an issue?
If you're not shooting off a full drum into a wall at point-blank range and running into the dust cloud to take in deep lungfuls
of it, I don't see how even a few hundred milligrams of dispersed SC poison in the air of a typical room would be an issue,
since it's non-effective by inhalation (AFAIK).
If I was tainting them with MPTP, or some other super-potent neurotoxin, that'd be a different story.
There are two distinct reasons for smooth bore tank barrels.
A. IIRC, they originated with the use of shaped charge projectiles. Armor penetration with a shaped charge projectile degrades
by ~70% if the projectile is spinning (centrifugal force reduces the penetration of the charge).
B. You are correct that longer rounds (e.g. hardened penetrator) require a faster spin, which can become a maintenance
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
problem on tank barrels. It can be done, but given the relatively short range of most tank shots, you're generally as well off
(regarding accuracy) with fin stabilization and you don't trash barrels as fast.
Light Armour-piercing bullet with hardened steel core. Bullet has alluminium jacket that covers all except the head of bullet.
Designed in Russia for 9mm cartridges such as 9x18mm Makarov PBM and 9x21mm SP-10. This bullet, fired from Makarov, is
capable to penetrate standart army issue armor vest at 30 meters. When loaded in more powerful 9x19 or 9x21 cartridges,
this bullet shows even more potential.
Although you are most likely correct as to ~most~ AP are brass, I would humbly offer that is due to easier Machining as well as
a cost factor, than for all out performance.
I have extensive milling time on Bronze, it is much harder to mill than brass.
Brass has more ductility (ability to stretch & be shaped) than Bronze.
Bronze was used to cast cannon barrels... and is still used extensively in making Bearings, due to its hardness.
The quality of Bronze that would be useful is that it is ~much~ harder to work than brass, esp. Phosphor Bronze which is what I
used to cast and machine.
(casting Phosphor Bronze, hack hack hack, please ventilate your shop!!! :eek: )
That hardness would be a favorable aspect in penetration of "barriors", because it would withstand being "mushroomed" far
longer than brass, which takes the "path of least resistance" whenever it is worked.
So, for the hobby bullet maker who wanted good penetration, I would go with solid Bronze, and sharp tools....
BTW, I have two Taig Lathes (one of the brands mentioned previously).
I have successfully cut Bronze to a factor of .0004 inches repeatedly, so to create a small caliber projectile with the same
dimensions would be fairly easy, with repeatable accurate results.
Plus it would have to be fairly concentrated to have significant effect since 10mL is a normal dosage (I have forgotten the
concentration, but that is what might be administered at a hospital) and that is simply incomprehensible to deliver via bullet.
Certainly increasing concentration is doable but it doesn't come that way (that I've ever seen). The dosage (via bullet) would
be interesting to know, since its use as a paralytic is usually administered IV and therefore most of the dosage information is
IV or IM.
There, it was described as 10mg for an adult male, intravenously, with symptoms as described.
A FMJ with an enclosed hollowpoint could easily hold 100mg which, even accounting for loss to bleeding, would still be more
than adequate, because it's buried deeply into the body tissues and organs of the victim, so it's sure to take rapid effect. :)
SC, BTW, is a powder, not a liquid. It's used in a solution for use in operations, but it's stored as a powder because it breaks
down in storage as a solution.
If you drill out a FMJ dan you can put some steel pellets in it and top te bullet of with some candle grease.
On impact the steel pellets don't crush and will try to penetrate.
(Sorry for my bad translation :o )
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
neo-crossbow November 16th, 2006, 03:52 AM
While we're at it, is a 7.62x25 steel core (not special AP-s, just old Red Army surplus) any good against a class IIIA?
For many years I was forced to cut down .222 rem cases, neck them down and then fire form to 7.62 X 25 because the ammo
in Australia dried up over night. I had a cheap norinco that was missing the clip to retain the slide pin, so it was wrapped with
wire at the time. You would undo the wire to diss-assemble it.
I might have to dig up a slide pin retaining clip and literally dig up the rest of it should this be the case. But I won't be looking
forward to making more cases for it.
Then use a good ammunition like the mentioned 7,62x25 Tokarev or 7,63 Mauser.
Or just take a full metal jacket and melt all the lead out of it, put a steel BB for airguns in its tip and push a steel cone in it to
fix the BB and straighten the bullet.
The brass hollow point will penetrate the vest and burst when it'll hit compressable liquids / tissue, causing a heavy shock and
when hit the proper area death instantly.
The full metal jacket will have a very high speed and the BB enough durability to penetrate the vest but wont break within the
body, instead it'll start to tumble.
It's depending on your skills what kind of bullet you'll make ;)
++++++++
Its pretty simple, while I was sharpening my tungsten welding electrode for Gas Tungsten Arc Welding (TIG) I realized that with
a minimal amount of effort, I could modify a JHP rifle round using little more than a drill press or dremel tool to accept a
length of tungsten welding electrode.
There are different grades/alloys of tungsten electrodes are used for various metals, I'm not sure if the tungsten core used in
munitions is a specific alloy, but if this isn't the case you could easily pick up a pack of ten, 7" long 3/32 diameter tungsten
electrodes for around $15. 1/8" diameter and 5/32" are also available, but a little more costly. Diamond grinding wheels would
be necessary if any sort of special sharpening was desired (Sort of pricey, but will last you a LONG time for said purpose).
There is a way you could sharpen the tungsten using an oxy torch or maybe MAPP gas but I've never attempted it, and it
probably doesn't give very reproducable results.
Pure tungsten is identified by a green band, and red banded tungsten is 2% thoriated (mildly radioactive, but I couldn't tell
you how harmful, I just try not to breath the dust :P). I'm not sure how you'd cut it, although tungsten can be very brittle, so a
pair of pliers and a vice should be more than enough to snap off a piece. You may need to score the tungsten prior to
snapping, if you're looking for specific lengths/results/whatever.
Id test this myself, but theres nowhere in my current locale that I can let off a few custom .30-06 armor piercing rounds on
mild steel plates :P If someone does try this though, please let me know how it goes! Throw a couple rounds at (through?)
some hot rolled steel of varying thickness and post the pictures!
I guess some people just miss all the warnings that new member posts are moderated...at sign-up, at the top of every section
in an announcement, and immediately after posting. :p
Any decent amunition will be able to punch through if you keep shooting it the exact same spot. Which would be pretty hard, if
you can shoot that good shoot where there is no armor.
Remember, nothing is truly bullet proof. I read (I don't remember which thread) that if you know what you want to shoot
through and they can make you a bullet for it.
"The pistol will fire any NATO-spec 9mm Parabellum ammo (9x19mm), but it's designed specifically to utilize the 9mm PBP
cartridge, which is a very hot AP (armor-piercing/armor-penetrating) version of the 9x19mm Parabellum in order to defeat
body armor. This is inline with the Russians'... "
In reality you dont need to penetrate the Kevlar to kill the wearer, a .44 mag to the chest of someone wearing level 3 armor
or below is not going to be having a nice day. The same thing can be said about a shotgun slug, yes it isnt going to penetrate
the armor but it delivers so much blunt trauma that it doesnt matter that much.
You can come up with many fancy methods of shooting at someone, but it is the simple and effective method that is going
to be the winner at the end of the day.
I have ~2,500 rounds of military surplus ammo, 8x57 Mauser, Berdan primed steel casings, corrosive, FMJ, 2700 fps, spam-
canned airtight.
After obliterating a very large sandstone rock with several shots a while ago, upon looking at the rubble I noticed a copper
jacket-- hollow-- on the ground, with one end perfect, and the other end essentially exploded. Scouring the rubble more, I
found 3 cores and 4 more jackets (Fired 5rds) and after examination I believe that these cores are actually steel. Granted
tungsten cores are preferable but this is a cheap and unquestioned source of 'armor-piercing' ammo... I haven't seen any for
sale on the internet, but 'Sportsman's Warehouse' still sells spam-cans of it, 320rds each, I think for like 25cts/rd.
And I can personally testify plastic-tipped ammunition does a number on any target as long as it is not very thick. Squirrels,
for example, after being shot with a 22-250 or .17 HMR generally gain an extra 2 feet of length due to splayed organs. It also
literally foams the blood...
The surplus .50 BMG ammunition I buy has a steel core... I know for a fact because I removed the copper jack to make sure.
My guess is that if you checked most FMJ ammunition has a steel core. I'm not sure you'd really call that ammunition "AP" but
against a vest that was designed to withstand pistol ammunition it sure would.
Stab vests are quite expensive and the NIJ has also had a tough time rating them. The use of something like an ice-pick will
divide fibers as it pushes through.
To the best of my knowledge if a pointed instrument is driven with the weight of the individual user there needs to be some
plate material available to stop it from driving into the wearer. The use of a broad-bladed knife on the other hand is not too
difficult to stop. The fibers stop coming apart and the knife is kept from entering the body. But some of the "knives" that
would be utilized in such an encounter would be of the "ice-pick" design.
Even older body armor from the US/UK military would resist a broad bladed knife (bowie-style, etc) as the design of the
resistant material is layered to keep any pointed object from encountering the same weave pattern. It MAY be this alteration
in weave pattern that makes one vest superior to another.
Therefore is may be that aside from shear force (.50 bmg) a 17-22 cal centerfire may be the best bet to defeat vests.
To stop AP rounds, a plate is required to start the expansion of the bullet on impact. Otherwise, they zip right through the soft
armours in the same way as a sharp knife.
I wrote a load of other stuff, but the forum logged me out while I was busy looking for stuff, but, here you go, it's the UK knife
standards test procedure, and the UK gun standards test procedure.
http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/ballistic-chart.php
Any rifle of reasonable power (e.g., military calibers like 5.45x39, 7.62x39, or 5.56x45) will easily penetrate any body armor
rated lower than NIJ Class III. Handguns are another matter. The bullets listed as being a threat greater than Class III-A
(e.g., the KTW) are all no longer available for public sale in the US.
One possible way to replicate the performance of these bullets without having to make your own from scratch might be to start
with a Barnes Solid (brass) rifle bullet of the appropriate diameter and then shorten the bullet's length to that of a standard
lead-core bullet. Barnes Solids are readily available to the public for use by handloaders:
http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/rifle/banded-solids/
If the right diameter can't be found, then I suppose a lathe could be used to reduce the diameter. The flat-nosed larger
caliber solids offered by Barnes should also be modified to something more conical.
On a general note: When modifying bullets for a handgun or rifle, be careful not to change the weight too much. If you make
a bullet too heavy for the powder load and primer that's standard for the unmodified bullet, then you could dangerously
increase chamber pressures and rupture your gun. The hardness of these bullets alone might also cause pressure issues when
used with a normal primer/powder load, so it would be a good idea to fire your first bullets remotely (e.g., string tied to
trigger) from behind a barrier and then check the brass for signs of high pressure before hand-firing.
What's to stop someone from making bullets that are pointed and sharp? Sure you would lose some tissue damage by the
fact that it would have increased penetration and it probably wouldn't be particularly advantageous against ceramic plates but
it might enable you to have better penetration from handgun rounds... My expectation is that to have real success you would
need to have the jacket (or better: cast pointed aluminum or steel bullets) be pointed, simply reshaping through grinding
down copper jacketed lead core bullets would leave pointed lead which may deform pretty easily.
When fired, the front cutting edge would probably rip right through any soft armour available, as it would cut rather than bind.
Hard plates would shatter, and stop it like normal, probably, though if you used a hardened drill bit, or even a masonary one,
you might find your new bullet is harder than the plate!
Yes, it's definitely good handloading practice to start from the minimum powder load listed in a handloading manual for a
given set of components and then work one's way up to the maximum load. And you've mentioned some classic signs of
overpressure that are definitely important for people to know.
However, by using improvised or home-modified bullets for which data can't be found in any manual, you're venturing into
unknown territory. You can increase pressure to dangerous levels by changing properties of the bullet such as hardness,
length, etc.
Why not just start with really tiny powder loads and work your way up, then? Because there's a minimum safe charge as well as
a maximum for a given set of components:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=299
I'm not an expert on this, but my understanding is that if a powder charge is too small, then it might cause a rupture by not
pushing the bullet out of the bore quickly enough to provide timely pressure relief.
The bottom line is that there's a window of safety in the powder charge that may be hard to determine for modified bullets.
I'm not trying to discourage anyone's experimentation, but these are issues that people should definitely be aware of. Firing
remotely (with a string tied to the trigger or whatever) while standing behind a barrier, and then checking the brass for signs of
overpressure, isn't a bad idea.
Just as a thought, but using a drill bit as your hardened insert (or entire bullet) would probably be rather effective. I'd suggest
cutting to length then coating with something rubber-like so it doesn't destroy the barrel.That's definitely the right kind of
material (e.g., tungsten carbide), but I suspect that using it as an insert would probably be a lot safer. The wrong method of
coating a bullet might interfere with the bullet's glide through the bore and cause a pressure-related rupture.
Of course, if the bit is used as an insert, it has to be inserted very symmetrically along the bullet's axis in order to prevent a
loss of accuracy and even penetration power. But setting up a drill to do that wouldn't be too hard.
As for an expedient AP round, a piece of steel 5/32"-3/16" ,sharpened to about a 90 degree included angle and inserted in a
modified HP bullet would do nicely. The bullet would simply act as the carrier and strip away as the more resistant material was
encountered.
It would not be necessary to alter a pistol bullet too much to achieve this and it could be weighed to determine the safe load.
Doing the same to ,say, a .30 cal rifle bullet may change it's bore resistance, but provided there is lead and copper
surrounding the core, is unlikey to render it unsafe if it has the jacket formed from the rear.
Cutting the nose off FMJ projectiles to excess, can lead to the core being expelled , leaving the jacket in the bore and setting
up for extreme pressures on the next shot.
As a child I owned a fairly anaemic .177 air rifle, but using a piece of steel nail sharpened to this fairly blunt profile and
inserted into a section of ballpoint pen tubing, would allow even this to penetrate an oil drum.
Same principal, just more energy with the bigger stuff.
You could easily replicate this by heating a copper jacketed round until the lead core fell out, then add your steel (or carbide)
and then swage the lead back in (or pour it back in as liquid, though the high surface tension would make it far harder to do.)
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
For a shotgun slug or lead nosed pistol round, you can easily make a jig to perfectly center a self-tapping screw into a pre-
drilled hole in the nose of a round (or, perhaps safer, a bullet) Just take care not to bulge it, or it either won't chamber or it
won't leave the barrel!
This kind of bullet will penetrate almost any bulletproof vest, no doubt about it. The downside is that they wont do as much
damage due to lack of expansion once inside the target.
Getting a hold of a box of these is a hassle though. The army watches over them like a hawk and I seriously doubt that you
can buy them. Making them yourself should be possible however, provided that you have a lathe and the neccesary
equipment to make the copper jacket.
The main advantage that this bullet design has over a sub-caliber round, or a steel-tipped one is the higher residual mass
and the lack of "moving parts" that a saboted or composite round has. It should also be easier to make.
I'm not an expert on this, but my understanding is that if a powder charge is too small, then it might cause a rupture by not
pushing the bullet out of the bore quickly enough to provide timely pressure relief.
I know this to be true, working up loads for SABOT 7.62 X 39 using 55gn .224 projectiles and 27gn .308 SABOTs with a halved
'max load' for 122 gn .308 projectiles.
I had a ruptured case, a broken H style buffer and the scare of my life.
I have since filled cases with dacron and used 'compressed' loads, still however haven't done any more 'load testing' with that
rifle or ammunition.
I've loaded sub-grain charges and fired them without damage and without filler.
I've loaded sub-grain charges and fired them without damage and without filler.
So its safe to start to process again? My wife wouldn't be impressed if I browned another pair of jeans...
Give me the charges, calibre, bullet weight, etc. as well as the barrel length and primer type. PM it if you don't want it out in
the open.
For info, I've run as small as 0.7 grains of powder through a .44 magnum case. I might even have gone as low as 0.3. (If you
have a dig around you should find the notes)
When you get that small, though, the primer does most of the work, and you will want some kind of filler because otherwise
the power changes dramatically according to the position of the powder in the case.
Given the already high-power (for a handgun) and a saboted 5.56mm AP bullet, this is supposed to capable of penetrating all
Level IIIa and some Level III SBA. :)
http://www.makarov.com/graphics/cz52/sabotstep02.jpg
Attached the picture, just in case it goes down from original site.
In the early 80's I worked at a large gun store that sold a lot of reloading supplies. We sold a re-barrelled pre-64 Winchester
model 70 .308 to a doctor/wannbe sniper. We also sold him everything he needed to roll his own - an RCBS press (Dillon
didn't exist back then) with 500 empty Norma cases, 175g Sierra bullets, CCI primers, a couple of pounds of IMR 4064, and
the standard books on reloading. We even took him in back and ran babysat him as he loaded his first 25 rounds with my
boss watching, and took those rounds out back to our range (it was only 50 yards) and sat with him as he shot a 2" group. We
tried to be encouraging.
A few weeks later we were served with a lawsuit. He'd blown up his gun on his first trip to the range, with his first batch of
handloads. He didn't have any permanent damage (no fingers missing), but had been seriously hurt.
We couldn't figure it out. The rebarrel was done by a reputable shop (Pachmyer). It looked like a cartoon - shredded into 4
pieces, all peeled back. It couldn't have been a double charge, the powder wouldn't have fit in the case.
It came out in depositions. He'd shot 15 rounds (they had all the empties) then had a misfire. He waited 30 seconds in case it
was a "hang fire" then cycled the bolt and fired again.
We duplicated it at our range, with a less expensive post '64 rifle, a string on the trigger and a video camera.
The "misfire" was a primer only. The bullet was lodged halfway down the barrel, the next bullet met the first one and spiked
the pressure. Boom.
We got to examine the rest of his batch of hand-loads. He'd loaded 50 and shot 17. In the remaining 33 there were 2 more
rounds without powder - we found them by shaking them and listening, then proved it with a scale.
So it's possible to blow a rifle up with an extremely small charge - but you have to have a regular round to actually make the
kaboom.
I have even seen the low 25acp able to defeat a class 2 aramid vest.
http://i5.tinypic.com/4knz33n.jpg
http://i1.tinypic.com/4kp3uxf.jpg
http://i10.tinypic.com/643280l.jpg
All rounds stopped in this class2 spectra test but a old school metal piercing 38spl and a fx 25acp...spectra even stopped a
.380acp KTW.
http://aycu09.webshots.com/image/30088/2001747880054258327_fs.jpg
Even a 9mm loaded with a few simple mild steel sharpened rods in a sabot will slice a class 3. Seen here in a cutaway.
http://i3.tinypic.com/4plqlax.jpg
BTW...KTW are NOT as effective as people think they are on soft armor in fact the lesser calibers are very poor AP.. They are
for hard targets.THV,ARCANES,TUBULARS,etc....are much more effective on aramid type targets.
http://aycu37.webshots.com/image/26556/2002590874835058318_fs.jpg
It has an exposed core that has a fairly sharp-edged hollow cone tip that I think might be tungsten (or other super tough
metal) with a copper jacket. The cavity is quite deep, and much larger than a typical hollowpoint or wadcutter type bullet. There
may be some lead behind the core, or even surrounding it, because the overall weight of the entire round is pretty comparable
to a standard FMJ round.
I was told that the concept was that the sharpened core edge cuts through the fibers... (I can't post photos of it yet)
Learfan, very interesting, but totally unrelated to the low powder explosions, where a single shot from a mouse load has
allegedly blown a good modern rifle breech. I've seen a pistol (revolver) with 7 bullets stuffed in the barrel before the strap
failed. Yes, they fired all 6 at a clear target that remained clear, and reloaded, before it failed. And these were regular target
rounds, not especially low powered ones - regular soft-loaded .38, probably.
1 - tungsten rods are available as welding electrodes, several mm diameter (eg. 3.5, 2.5 etc.), prices at eg. 2 $/10 cm . They
are doped with small amounts of maybe thorium (1-2 %, for electron-emission) or other, also available undoped.
2 - brass and harder alloys may be shaped galvanoplastically (by electrolysis), slowly the piece, but large amounts in parallel.
That usually employs an electrolytical deposition-bath with the chemical compounds for all of the metals to be deposited (Sn,
Cu), and constantly varying the DC voltage (with some function-generator, sound-card+software etc.) in order to deposit more
or less of the metal with the higher deposition-voltage, thus varying the composition of the alloy deliberately.
Plenty of papers about that are on the net (I believe) .
Like that it would be possible to make mantles for the tungsten-cores of.eg. bronze, with outer mantles even softer by
depositing Sn or Pb (not sure about how good Pb can be deposited).
I would not bet on anything beeing directly deposable onto the tungsten (it seems to passivate like aluminum when used as
the oxidized electrode, but here it would be used as the reducing one), if not possible a thin graphite- or other conducting
layer would make it possible.
Of course the ready bullets can be treated thermally, to allow diffusion for an better intermixture of the Sn/Cu or whatever,
but: electrolytically deposited metals/alloys are usually _much_ harder (~ factor 3) then those made via other routes, due to
hydrogen-inclusions in the structure. Maybe this hardness would disappear with the temperature.
About the hardest metal that's common to be deposited electrolytically is chromium, it's _very_ hard (didn't find the numbers
now).
Besides it's also possible to deposit metals as _foam_, by using a somewhat higher current. This foam might be prepared to
be ignited when the thing is shot (soaking it with some oxidizer etc.), giving the very high temperature of metal+O combustion
within the target. (Eg. hard center of the bullet, then some foam (for lightweightness, maybe organically vacuum-impregnated
for mechanical strength), and _maybe_ an outer mantle of whatever soft metal to grip the rifling ; _maybe_ the foam burning
itself off an freeing the hard core (_maybe_ even acting as fuel)).
Now forget my phantasies about the foam, which may be to hard to make in good qlity to the average guy.
But I could bet on the tungsten-core and brass mantle to give something that even could penetrate some armor when shot
from pistols ...
Ney :)
Now this thing only has to be heated to the right temperature for the right amount of time to give, via diffusion/solid-state-
reaction, the bronze-alloy. (reducing conditions might help prevent oxidation, maybe as easy as putting some charcoal-pieces
into the oven (careful with the CO !))
Choose the caliber of the electric cable to match the barrel, insert the tungsten-core before the thinning or before the
annealing (drilling then therefore a hole in to the still soft copperwire/thin structure).
I have not tried this (me no shooter), don't blame me for any exploded barrels etc ..
The structure of the finished projectile might be fibrous, fibres of harder alloy contained within a softer (maybe elastic, however
good your metallurgy is) matrix. That can be abused by giving the copper-cable some structure before the thin-soaking, eg.
by introducing knots or whatever, _maybe_ manufacturing lenghty projectiles that split into several bullets or whatever you can
think of.
Of course hollow projectiles can also be made by using the copper-shielding of signal-cables for the purpose etc. .
It has an exposed core that has a fairly sharp-edged hollow cone tip that I think might be tungsten (or other super tough
metal) with a copper jacket. The cavity is quite deep, and much larger than a typical hollowpoint or wadcutter type bullet. There
may be some lead behind the core, or even surrounding it, because the overall weight of the entire round is pretty comparable
to a standard FMJ round.
I was told that the concept was that the sharpened core edge cuts through the fibers... (I can't post photos of it yet)
You may have a "cyclone' tubular bullet..I can Id all types of this round if you get a pic. They were not cia but BATFE/fbi..etc...
I saw a PDF somewhere about a round that was based on the same principle. A supersonic .50BMG cookie cutter. :)
Guilford 45acp tubular with a ultra rare smitar 45acp to the left It fires a razor edge knife blade encased in a nylon
sabot.Workes great was well tested in vietnam..you can not wear enough aramid to stop it.
To the right is a delayed explosive ap round as made for the cia by fx labs.Explodes inside the body not on contact as 99% of
explosive type rounds do.
Standard looking Ball round to the top is a bulleted shot shell...a very effective shotshell and bullet combo design.
http://aycu12.webshots.com/image/40531/2001335033570913869_fs.jpg
http://aycu23.webshots.com/image/40982/2001320989634594608_fs.jpg
Military Technologies SCMITR shotgun ammunition is a direct result of request by various mailitary and civilian agencies for a
new class of shotgun ammunition that retained the high 1st round hit probability with extended range. Investigation of various
long range shotgun ammunition revealed that flechette type rounds showed the best long range performance and penetration,
but at the low velocities typical of shotguns, exhibited none of the lethality demostrated by the same projectile type when fired
a higher rifle velecities.
Upon studying the effectiveness of flechette ammunition, it was determined that lethality and wound tracks of shotgun
flechettes was directly proportional to the width of the stabilizing fins. SCMITR is a direct result of these studies.
The SCMITR flechette is a simple steel stamping with a bias imparted on the tail section to provide spin for stability. The
broad cross section results in a wide wound track, and the round is able to penetrate a standard aramid fiber ballistic vest or
steel helmet ar ranges in excess of 500 meters, while exhibiting equal or greater lethality than conventional 8mm pellet
ammunition and all at the same comparative cost per round. 12 flechettes are packed per standard 18x75mm shotgun shell.
It is packed in olive drab, plastic cased shells marked " 18.5x75mm SCMITR, cylinder bore only".
So someone took one of these blades (or smaller version of) and made a sabot for it to be fired from a handgun. :) Sounds
easy enough to replicate.
In the picture of the bullets, the 3rd row up, third or forth from the left, Dixon Omega-Star?
In the picture of the bullets, the 3rd row up, third or forth from the left, Dixon Omega-Star?
NEGATIVE...The 20ga round in the pic you have is what it is a 20ga scmitar...the 45acp was built as it is.I have a few 20ga
rounds.
The US Goverment had the 45acp rounds built in the late 1960s and early 1970s.
The 45acp versions are so rare that it will be very hard to find any info on them.
NEGATIVE..not a omega star pre frag round..its a jim cilliro bullet design that he used for head shots when working for the sou
in new york in the 1970s.It mushrooms into a square..wicked.
Regardless, that's a very nice collection you've got there. I'm envious.
Regardless, that's a very nice collection you've got there. I'm envious.
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
Yes..I thought at first you were saying that the 45 used a modified 20ga blade.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > A m m unitio n a n d R e l o a d i n g > Discontinued JHP Amm o
Log in
View Full Version : Discontinued JHP Ammo
The obvious secret is in the extrem e b ullet design : It is an ordinary hollowpoint, except there is a slightly oversized(but far
s m a ller than bullet dia.) steel ball glued to the mouth of the bullet.
If you are thinking it looks like someone trying to put a n u n p e e l e d o r a n g e i n t o h i s m outh, you are right.
The steel ball first help penetrate arm or, then (violently) cam the bullet m o u t h o p e n , t h e n t h e s t e e l b a l l d e t a c h e s f r o m t h e
bullet, either stays in the target or creat another wound channel.
I wonder if the bullet will be too long to feed but since it's been m a r k e t e d I a s s u m e i t i s d esigned so it won't interfe re with
n o r m a l f e e d i n g / c h a m bering.
I think the jhp was kind of just like a high energy bb de livery system that just happened to have a h i g h s h o c k v a l u e a s a s i d e
effect of the expanding but (probably) low penetrating jhp round
W ould be nice against lightly armoured targets as you said in that the bb would p ossibly penetrate the arm our (say a class2
bullet proof vest) while the jhp would d eliver a high shock value whilst flattening against the vest
------------------
T e a m work is essential.
It lets you to b l a m e s o m e o n e e l s e .
------------------
A wise man once said :
"...T here Will Be No
Stand O ff At High Noon
... Shoot'em I n T h e B a c k
And, Shoot'em I n T h e D a r k "
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
Say a 5.56 @ 3200fps in 1 in 9 twist barrel, thats 256,000 rpm s. You would have to have it centere d and soldered just right or
it would likely tum ble as soon as it exited the barrel and tear itself apart.
------------------
"Chance favors a prepared m ind"-Louis Pasteur
P G P I D 0 x 1 4 7 C EF54
Federal Expa nding FMJ? Is that the bullet with FMJ around a lead body and "m arshm allow" nose filling? If I am correct, it
inde ed is good, uniform expansion(the bullet literally turned into a six-blade fan)
Most soft m a t e r i a l c a n c a u s e a n H P t o e x p a n d m ore if filled into HP cavity...vaseline, wax, even cloth (Some early .303 Brit use
Dum -Dum bullets, wh ich had shredded cloth filled into bullet cavity.)
Hell, to m a k e b u l l e t s c o m e apart is darn easy. Manufacturers de velop m olecular bonding technology to make sure bullets stay
in one piece. So put them loosely together, it will com e apart.
I had a crate (pretty m uch gon e by now) of 7.62X39 from Norinco, they are typical fake softpoints : they are m ilitary amm o with
copperwashed steel jacket , green lacq u e r e d s t e e l c a s e , s t e e l c o r e , a n d o f c o u r s e , B e r d a n p r i m e d . T h e s e a r e d e s i g n e d t o l e t
the steel core penetrate hum a n b o d y .
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > 5.56 Flechette?
Log in
View Full Version : 5.56 Flechette?
Anyhow, why dont you just try a few materials that you know wont damage your barrel? What weapon is it?
<small>[ June 12, 2002, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: green beret ]</small>
Before I embarked on making such rounds I was hoping someone had success doing so in the past. I was thinking of using some polymer of some sort to keep the flechette
flying at super high velocity, or maybe using wood.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How about providing a link instead of bogging down the thread with a 100Kb pic? <img src="http://www.roguesci.org/ubb/icons/icon17.gif" alt="" /> A little consideration for
us dial-uppers would be nice.
<small>[ June 13, 2002, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>
For a non discarding sabot, I would try casting a lead slug around the shaft of the flechette which would add weight to aid penetration and also keep the velocity sensible - as
you requested. However the lead would probably disrupt the airflow over the flechette's fins, badly affecting accuracy. However this might be an advantage if firing from a
rifled barrel, if the fins are made ineffective. Or you could snip the fins off, but then you might as well use nails or something.
Why do you specifically want to fire a flechette from a rifle? Knowing the purpose/motive/desired effect would help people suggest solutions.
This might be a good idea for a small handgun type unit. To make the sabot stay on the projectile while its being fired isnt much of a problem with a discarding sabot since the
fins will prevent the flechette from going past the sabot. To keep both sides of the discarding sabot together one would have to make a female and male edge in each of the
two sections of the sabot as to make them interlock. I was thinking of two half moon shaped parts as the sabot that would fit together to make a sabot.
Oh and hell go buy yourself a Gurza vector its a russian made 9mm handgun with a solid core of some kind that can go thru 15 layers of kevlar and 2.5mm titanium plate at
100metres , fletteches are kind of defunct by that.Then again you could always make punji fletchettes though having your weapon smell like that would be kind of unpleasant
unless it was sealed in some sort of hollow point.
<small>[ June 15, 2002, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: tempest ]</small>
oops my mistake thats Gyurza and 30 layers of kevlar and 2.8mm titanium according to the link above anyway
Use adhesive to attach a piece of cloth to the base of the sabot halves. For demo purposes, cut a circle of duct tape to fit the sabot base to see what I mean.
You need a barreled weapon to use them. Explosive deployment (like a nail bomb) won't work because they'll bend and tumble erratically in flight.
If they were dropped en mass from a height over a crowd, then you'd have some serious injuries. During WWI, the french would drop them over german troops, and it was
known for the darts to pass completely through a mans body, entering through his helmet and exiting out his foot. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
There are sabots for loading in the 37mm launcher that will project 120 flechettes in one blast. See the archive for details.
On another note, I saw a post about that stupid spike launcer thing from Eraser. It is very buildable, and will work, but why? Greanades are cheap and easy. Ok, if you take a
piece of old hydraulic pipe, and weld caps on each end securely all you have to do is drill some holes. Then fill it with LOW EXPLOSIVE, that is crucial. Take your sipkes and put
them in until they barely stick out. GLue them in with a little super glue so the don't move around. This device would be for show only as it is a waste of time for a real
weapon.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > A m m unitio n a n d R e l o a d i n g > special 12 gauge bullets - Archive
File
Log in
View Full Version : special 12gauge bullets - Archive File
Bitter
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 290
From : 11 Downing Street, London, England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-21-2001 01:25 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
S o m e o n e o n t h e l a s t f o r u m s a i d t h a t t h e d r a g o n f l a m ethrower shells can be im p r o v i s e d b y m i x i n g m a g n e s i u m p o w d e r a n d
naptha. I don't know how true that is, though.
EP
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 108
From : U SA
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-27-2001 01:09 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thats quite a selectio n of special am m o ! S o m e of it is really useless though...The easiest to improvise would probably be th e
b e a n b a g o n e s . Y o u c o u d j u s t t a k e t h e s h o t a n d w a d o u t o f a n o r m a l s h e l l a n d p u t it your own beanbag type thing o r just a
hard piece of rubber or plastic that fits well for a non lethal slug.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > A m m unitio n a n d R e l o a d i n g > hollow 12gauge slugs and
h o m emade sabots - Archive File
Log in
View Full Version : hollow 12gauge slugs and homemade sabots - Archive File
Bitter
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 290
From : 11 Downing Street, London, England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-26-2001 02:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That should work. I don't think the explosive or the rod will screw up the balistics unless you have m achined it craply.
How do you intend to keep the sabot stable in flight ?
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From : England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-26-2001 05:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is the sabot supposed to be fixed or discrading? The weight of the slug would give the steel rod great energy retention at long
ranges. It would also badly lim it the velocity of the steel rod to though.
could you wrap wadding around steel rod to stabilze it in the barrel (with regular wadding behind)? That way the rod would get
full energy from load, exit at a very high velocity and th e wadding sabot would discard when it left the m uzzle giving better
areodynamics.
Does your shotgun have a rifled barrel? If it does then hom emade sabots of any kind might not work very well. U n l e s s t h e
projectile is centred *exactly* in the centre of the barrel, when the round spins through the air it will corkscrew due to the
uneven weight distribution. Although experim e n t a l l o a d s a r e b e s t s u i t e d t o a s m o o t h b o r e p i p e s h o tgun anyway!
phyrelord
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 135
From :
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 04-26-2001 05:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i was plannin g on having it be a discarding sabot. I can probabely com e up with a lighter material, would co rk work? Just an
idea thanks guys for the help. Another thing is, will the explosive go off in the barrel from the heat of the slug or from the
sudden jarring. I wanted to make something like a HESH (high explosive squash head) but i don't want to fuck up my barrel or
m e in doing so.
Bitter
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 290
From : 11 Downing Street, London, England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-27-2001 03:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Try this, it looks interesting :
http://www.corbins.com /slugs.htm
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > A m m unitio n a n d R e l o a d i n g > copper coating bullets - Archive
File
Log in
View Full Version : copper coating bullets - Archive File
HMT D Factory
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 225
From :
Registered: FEB 2001
posted 04-06-2001 12:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Electroplate the lead...
Use copper sulphate as electrolyte.
jin
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 111
From : u k
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-06-2001 01:25 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you would use copper pipeing in a die its called swaging .
www.corbins.com/topics.htm
Mystery
New Mem ber
Posts: 24
From : O Z
R e g i s t e r e d : M A R 2001
posted 04-07-2001 08:49 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for that "Factory".
And you asked why I would want to pla te lead bullets, well, the perpose of plating bullets is to elim inate the need for
lubrication, if you fire an unlubricate bullet you coat your bore with lead (Very dangerous, By copper coating bullets you get
m ore fps.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > A m m unitio n a n d R e l o a d i n g > O T C T u n g sten bullets
Log in
View Full Version : OTC Tungsten bullets
T h e s e a r e u s e d a s l e a d w e i g h t r e p l a c e m ents in worm lures. They're com p o s e d o f 9 5 % t u n gsten/5% nickel, and are harder
than steel, while being alm ost twice as dense. :)
Prices for the size suitable for 5.56 and 7.62m m rounds are quite affordable at between $ 0 . 7 5 a n d $ 1 e a c h r o u n d . 1 - 8 0 0 - 2 2 7 -
7 7 7 6 ( 1 - 8 0 0 - B A S S - P R O ) , p a g e 2 2 2 o f t h e i r m a ster cata log,
Since this are intended as fishing lure weights, I don't im agine anyone having any troubles getting them th rough cu stom s in to
countries tha t are anti-gun. ;)
Alas, since they ARE fishing weights, they're not designed for use in firearm s, requiring som e m odification prior to use. You'll
likely have to resize them by m achinging, prior to fitting them into a copper jacket, since they are too hard to engage rifling
as-is.
Give n the inherent difficulties in otherewise obtaining decent AP bullets, without even being in an a nti-gun country, alternate
sources of pork-penetrating bullets would be a good thing to have. Yes, they'd be expensive, but that's what real gun control is
all a bout...hitting what you aim at. ;)
I've also included the normal lead weights since they're so cheap and ready for use as bullets in improvised firearm s. They're
only about $5/100, and have hollowed bases, just like Miniere bullets! :)
Perhaps a person could use electrolysis to seperate the two, reducing the tungsten to a powder.
If th e lures could be forged, though, then that'd be prefered. I'n thinking of how they could be form ed into quadran gle shot.
That'd be the shit right there. :) Harde r than steel, twice as dense as lead, and shaped to shred piggy vests after going
through the doors/windows of their cars.
I've never heard of any pyrophoric reactions with tungsten. Sure you're not thinking of titanium?
Just tried forging the stuff - it works. I heated a thoriated tungsten electrode to red-orange heat, using a kerosene blow-torch
(damn, thats such a great toy :D ). Thum ping it with a ballpeen hamm er successfully deform ed the metal. Kept playing until
the rod broke where I was holding it with vise-g rips.
The frags have to be spherical if it's going to retain velocity over any decent dista nce. Does W am a l g a m ate with me rcury? I've
a patent for m a k i n g f r a g m enting AP bullets that uses am a l g a m ations with zinc and som e other m etals. I'd im agine with W
added in, it'd be m uch m ore effective and it could be cast into the required shapes.
Natural fragm entation is easy, but very inefficient, which is why modern m unitions use pre-form e d f r a g m e n t s . T h o u g h p e r h a p s
for small weapons like shotgun grenades...
The welding rods are brittle even before heating, and they snap easily. I think pu re tungsten is quite brittle too, but I bet the
ThO2 doesn't help. But as you said, 2% ThO2 and 5% Ni will cause the tungsten to have very different properties in each case.
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > Does this work? (flechettes) - Archive File
Log in
View Full Version : Does this work? (flechettes) - Archive File
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-08-2001 04:20 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you might mean fletchetes (sp)
Mad Dog
New Member
Posts: 32
From:
Registered: APR 2001
posted 06-08-2001 09:58 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, a shorter stem (0.5-1mm) and they spin end over end as they pass through flash. That is what cosies the damage.
------------------
If you kill someone and it makes the world a better place, is it so wrong?
Foodos
Frequent Poster
Posts: 210
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-08-2001 01:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
is your question will it work? Yes, if its not heavier then the basic load of what the primary charge was meant to shoot out, those wouldn't have a whole lot of range though,
since they aren't aerodynamic they will loose their energy quickly by 'soaking up' all the wind resistance. Accuracyies probably a bitch as well. Nothing wrong with OO buckshot.
Viper4403
New Member
Posts: 27
From: Florida, USA
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 06-08-2001 02:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've heard of this too.
It's an old mafia method, and it's not restricted to russian mafia. I've heard a similar story about bits of shot welded to a short string of piano wire for a kind of bolas type of
thing.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-08-2001 04:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd only try thest loads with a cheap clean smooth bore shotgun, not some expensive pump that has features to enhance the pattern of the shot.
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 06-09-2001 04:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aren't flachettes (I think that's the sp, but I'm not sure) like little darts? I always thought they were dropped by planes onto groups of soldiers, but I'm no expert.
Mad Dog
New Member
Posts: 32
From:
Registered: APR 2001
posted 06-10-2001 01:06 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well flachettes are little darts but thay are fired from a shotgun.
------------------
If you kill someone and it makes the world a better place, is it so wrong?
Heavy Recoil
Frequent Poster
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
Posts: 55
From: nope, try again
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 06-10-2001 11:47 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They can be both, the ones that were dropped from planes in world war I were alot longer 10 to 20 cm. while those used in shotguns are an inch to almost 3 inchs (at a recent
gunshow I saw a ammomaker who had them packed in a 3 1/2 magnum 12 gauge) there are flechet canisters used in vetnam, but I dont have any info on them.
------------------
Know the enemy, know yourself;your victory will never be endangered. SUN TZU
Foodos
Frequent Poster
Posts: 210
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-10-2001 07:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
flachettes are shrapanel in general, used in Vietnam is LAW rocket launchers, rpgs, missiles (I think sometimes).
That bola-esque cartridge is commercially made, http://www.firequest.com/
Well flechettes were not ever used in a LAWS rocket LAW is an acronym for Light Anti-tank Weapon and with the velocity achieved by a LAW rocket shooting a tank with steel
darts would be senseless. (before I get flamed I will state that I am aware of the current use of single depleted uranium sabots to defeat armor plate) also my father witnessed
the use of "beehive" rounds in Vietnam on human wave attacks he stated that the day after an attack you could find VC stapled to trees by the 105s' being fired into the mass
attacks. Also his Sgt carried an Remington 870 loaded with flechettes and 00 buck and he stated that it blew chunks out wherever it hit. (his being a medic he treated some
survivors).
Now a question, after USTSE I found only 2 threads with the word flechete in them, specifically I was hoping to find a thread about the use of flechettes on kevlar vests, and
options on loading flechettes in a 12ga round.
You will find interesting info on loading and supplies for same here:
http://www.hi-vel.com/Catalog__20/Specialized_Shotshell_Ammuniti/specialized_shotshell_ammuniti.html
Well I am finished with this reply and hope I don't fall in the "banned for life" category. Also I welcome all questions about firearms and ballistics as they are indeed my
passion. FYI I have watched this forum as an unregistered guest since 2003 good info good job.
A much more reliable supplier of flechette ammunition than Hi-Vel (the TOTSE of ammo sellers :p):
http://www.antipersonnel.net/sdllc/005.html
In the military I worked closely with our Anti-Tank team who was armed with the 84mm M3 Carl Gustav Recoilless Rifle. While it has been deemed inhumane to use flechette
rounds against personel, we figured terrorists who kill their own people don't qualify as humans :D. In a class, we actually were given an inert flechette round with the
projectiles still in it. We were able to look at them, and they were about 3 inches long with 3 pairs of prongs near the back of the projectile. I'm unsure of the count in one
round.
Used in combat, specifically in urban settings, this round ripped people apart. It was really brutal. Fired down a narrow ally, the shot pattern spread out enough to leave no
room to hide. "Effective" range was only a couple hundred meters. The rounds were called ADM, Area Defense Munitions. Normally, I think these rounds are not considered
acceptable by modern military standards.
Loading them in a shotgun plastic wad would be a simple thing to do. Use of "Sporting Clays" (12ga) loading would be appropriate as they would weigh at less than an ounce.
Being steel and packed into the wad cover they would not seem to contact the bore. Spread would not be uniform obviously - However they may actually fly straight for about
30M if the propellant was at a low level (super light) & wax utilized to both maintain projectile integrity and seal the shell. There would seem to be no need to over power
them whatsoever as the construction would provide a unique ballistic element.
Though designed in the 1950's as an anti-tank vehicle it became a top VC killer in Viet Nam with the introduction of a 106mm "Beehive" round loaded with flechettes. It was
nothing for the Ontos to fire all 6 recoilless rifles at the same time and clear jungle out knee high for a 1/4 mile deep and then scoot back to a secure position to reload. It
became the Marines armored shotgun and earned the nickname "the pig".
The NVA and VC hated to encounter an Ontos because it was so deadly at perimeter defense and convoy escort duty. At only 9 tons on 20" tracks it could take to the soft soils
surrounding the rice paddies. Only 176 were deployed with the Marines in Viet Nam and they were decommissioned in 1970.
It's a painful fact that we really could have won that conflict. When all is said and done the money and material we expended in that theater was incredible. But even a great
boxer would lose if they went into the ring with handcuffs on.
Much was made of the use of the flechette & the shotgun and it's legality in war. However, the same (utilitarian value) could be said for our use of the Ithica Duckbill; as it was
reputed to be one of the best close encounter small arms in jungle weapons.
One thing that is often missed is that from a ballistic perspective, the design of the flechette & is it's conformity to choke design (or lack there of) is amazing. Stabilization was
generally acceptable if the propellant was balanced to the weight of the projectile. The greater the diameter of the bore the (amongst other factors) the more successful the
flight of a well made flechette projectile.
I have a Browning 12 gauge 5-shot semi-auto shotgun that would be very happy to accept a spreader type enhancement.:D
The "spreader concept" as in the duck bill was deemed to be a very effective addition. I have seen only on the the flesh (or in the steel). When I first examined it I thought it
would burst the barrel (it was not THAT radical, mind you but it looked pretty wild).
There were rumors that such a device would be available on a variety of shotguns but I have yet to see one on anything but that example.
Please note that in '67 I was playing with Super Balls, Etch-a-Sketch, slot cars, and staring at the thighs of the girls in Social Studies......
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f348/festergrump/flachette2.jpg
For $2 per 50 count or $25 for 1 lb. bag (about 1000 each), you can't go wrong for experimental purposes. Beats making your own individually, anyway. Never seen them
offered anywhere before, but here they are: http://www.imsplus.com/ims35.html
There rest of the page seems pretty well dedicated to us Forumites, too! :D
If you do go for loading your own, make sure you either have a well-overbored shotgun, so that the compression from the forcing cone to the barrel proper is almost none, or
you leave a little slack in there for the darts to be able to fit all at once thorough that tighter hole. Likewise, think about your choke pattern - if it narrows the barrel further,
then trouble is ahead.
The safest way is to take 80% of the darts that will fit in the shot cup of the plastic wad, and pop them in with a small amount of small shot (8+) around them to hold them
tight. I've had no problems with homemade rounds done like this, with a regular modern barrel and open chokes. I also find the same to work for throwing slugs made at
home.
Note that I haven't actually done this, since it would be illegal in the UK, as the largest legal dimension of a projectile in a shotgun cartridge is .36", and there must be at least
6 shot in a round. I have only dreamed of making a mould from a ceramic then melting lead directly into it. Likewise, I have only dreamed of using steel plastic coated wire
coathanger cut to length as described above. Note this was an open ended case, since about 1" long seemed to be about right.
I own a registered 40mm and load a lot of my own ammo. I have loaded dozens of rounds using the exact flechettes posted above. (I picked up 40 lbs of them in a deal
awhile back).
I've tried several differnt types of buffer or filler in the shotcups, actually powdered soap or oatmeal seem to work the best for me. (Better than lead or steel shot, anyway).
The flechettes are fairly light so they lose their velocity relatively quickly compared to buckshot.
They pattern OK but the limit to effective anti-personnel range is closer to 25 meters. I've shot them at different levels of kevlar body armor and they reliably penetrate a IIA
vest at 20 meters.
The only problem is in their design. by design, flechettes are thin darts. they actually do VERY little damage to tissue. Imagine a high speed needle punching through a piece of
meat. If the velocity is increased dramatically, they may bend and cause more tissue damage, but in my experience in 40mm loadings that the recoil becomes prohibitive when
you reach those velocities.
I'm hoping not to get banned for my first post, I've learned alot and been reading on this site for along time. Just trying to add my small bit of knowledge to the forum.
+++++++++=
One thing you can do in the future is add paragraph breaks to make your posts more readable, as I did for this one. NBK
Tried this exact thing and worked like a charm. The type and method of buffering makes a difference. One technique was to use standard buffer and drop to 80%....seems
fine.
Tried an experiment and used wrapped tissue; was very time consuming as it's not "roll the damn things up and stuff them in the shell" type buffering but to weave the tissue
around & through - they appeared to fly much flatter for longer range (20M).
Noted that when "sporting clays" level of powder/associated load were used rather than field or greater strength...better flight. Paper-card wadding was used to create more
room at the top for the crimp; rather than plastic cup....even better terminal performance. Why? I have no idea as it would appear that the plastic wadding (AA) would have a
more consistent "push".......(?)
http://weapons.travellercentral.com/tech/scmitr.gif
They were the shit for close range work but had all the same long range problems of the standard design flechettes.
They really worked on tissue and bone was no barrier. I know a rat that iced a few people with them in the early 1970s.
The 45acp version were a cool design but the cost was to high and the tunnel rats were just issued standard ball.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > A m m unitio n a n d R e l o a d i n g > .50 caliber shells? - Archive File
Log in
View Full Version : .50 caliber shells? - Archive File
HMT D Factory
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 220
From :
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 05, 2001 09:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4140 Steel.
"Pick up" a b arrel? Well be preapred to lose m oney because it will norma lly cost you 1000$
to 2000$
Are you going to m ake brass by turning brass stock? Not the best idea because you can order .50 shell from reloading
suppliers.
BaDSeeD
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 80
From : buffalo, ny
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 06, 2001 12:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No he wasn't going to m ake the brass. He wanted to know the dimentions of the shells. I wish i still had som e e m p t i e s
around...
Incidentally, you don't have to use 4140 for the reciever. I've se e n p e o p l e m a k e t h e m out of 416 stainless, chrom e m olly, and
vicon 44. Out of those choices though... 4140 is probably the cheapest. But its a pain in the ass to m achine. Its rea l easy to
work harden it while your making it. If you have a m ach inist m ake the re ciever for you, make sure he runs full coolant on it
while machining it, check it for any irregularities (warpage), and heat cracks. Also radius the internal corners to keep som e
strength in them . The last thing you want is for it to fail. It'd be like a ha nd grenade going off in front of your face.
W here did you get the blueprints for the reciever? And what m o d e l / m a k e is it for?
I have blueprints for a Barret M95, I m ade prints for everything EXCEPT the barrel. Seeing as i had n o m e a n s o f m a k i n g t h e
barrel, but everything else i could.
------------------
BaDSeeD
Knowledge is the true power, ignorrance will bring your demise.
phyrelord
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 135
From :
Registered: JAN 2001
posted March 06, 2001 03:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I m a d e u p t h e i d e a f o r t h e r e c e i v e r a n d s t u f f a n d a s k e d a f r i e n d ( g u n s m ith) if it looked okay but he had never dealt with su ch
a h u g e g u n s o I d o n ' t k n o w . T h e o n l y t h i n g i n e e d t o k n o w a b o u t the shell is the diameter of the casing, so i know how big to
m a k e m y bolt. Would you be able to post those plans by any ch ance? They m i g h t b e u s e f u l . t h a n x
Bitter
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 293
From : 11 Downing Street, London, England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 06, 2001 04:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you want to know the dim entions of any (well, most) bullets used today including the .50 BMG then the p lace to g o is :
http://www.calweb.com/~haas/amm o g u i d e /
It'll tell you nearly all you need to know if you can get it working...there's even a downloadable version too !
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
phyrelord
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 135
From :
Registered: JAN 2001
posted March 06, 2001 04:43 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
t h a n k s m an that site rocks, ju st what i needed
BaDSeeD
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 80
From : buffalo, ny
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 07, 2001 05:23 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All the blueprints are hand drawn. And I don't have a scanner. It would take m e quite a while to redraw them with autocad.
Especially since I havn't figure d autoca d out yet.
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > Improvised Ammo ? I must be mad. - Archive File
Log in
View Full Version : Improvised Ammo ? I must be mad. - Archive File
Igenx
Frequent Poster
Posts: 80
From: No Fucking Way
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 09, 2001 05:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They are fairly practical, (easiest way is to alter an existing round) but they have to be machined. Having a round with a weld at the shoulder wouldn't work, and if you glue
the shoulder/ neck it in place you run the risk ok having it break off in the chamber. For the sake of simplicity, stick with straight walled rounds. Easier to make, easier to make
a chamber that will work with them.
If you have some time to kill and equiptment available then this is the project for you.
[This message has been edited by Igenx (edited March 09, 2001).]
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 220
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 10, 2001 02:06 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't quite understand, if you need to make a new "necked" cartridge, why not go with current design?
Aluminum cases only withstand up to 60000psi
compare to brass case 75000psi.
During war time, hunters who have a lathe turn their shell with solid brass.
The turned case can last almost forever but can only use smaller charges because of the thicker wall.
I am not an active wildcatter but I think straight wall cases can be necked down, then fireform into shape. Or progressive swaging
can be used, but will require special order dies.
Bitter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 293
From: 11 Downing Street, London, England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 10, 2001 03:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was thinking more along the lines of a solid bar that could be drilled in one end with a large diameter drill and in the other end with a smaller diameter drill. The outside of the
bar could then be turned down to a 'neck'. How do you post pictures on here ? It would be better if I could show you a picture...
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 220
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 11, 2001 01:44 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think I got what you mean, Bitter.
How do you want to seal the base of the cartridge? There are many failed experiment
of two-piece cartridge shell design or failed
screw-on shell designs(they leak and ruined the action)
It might not withstand, say normal working pressure of smokeless powder firearm.
Bitter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 293
From: 11 Downing Street, London, England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 11, 2001 06:25 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HMTD, I was thinking only in terms of a ammuniton for bolt-action guns, otherwise the minor problem of sealing the base of the cartridge effectively would be a serious
problem. Especially if the ammo was used on an auto or semi auto weapon (or any other gun with an unlocked bolt).
Maybe epoxy would do, or perhaps threading.
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 397
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 11, 2001 02:39 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would turning the outside of the case be neccesary ? Then making the camber would be easier. Just an Idea
------------------
"ARE YOUR PAPERS IN ORDER" -- Jack Booted Thug
Bitter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 293
From: 11 Downing Street, London, England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 12, 2001 01:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good point. Necked cartridges are only necked to ease ejection in auto guns aren't they ? A bolt action wouldn't need it. Thanks all of you.
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 220
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 12, 2001 09:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bitter, before you decide to do the cartridge
, I got something to tell : bolt guns seals the chamber as much as a gas operated semi-auto do (They don't seal, if the case fails then it is ruined). If the case body isn't well
sealed, the result is still leaking and destroying the action. Personally I won't epoxy it.
Demolition
Frequent Poster
Posts: 159
From: Australia
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 12, 2001 10:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Although this is off the topic has anyone ever thought of putting a small amount of AP in a .22 shell,then putting the bullet head back on and having an extremely high velocity
bullet.Of course this would be extremely dangerous as the AP could rip apart the barrel and cause serious damage but if the bullet was loaded into a stronger type of barrel/
rifle,eg(.22 Magnum,.222,etc.)which could hold the shell in place,still be fired and withstand the blast? the results would be very intersting.Just a thought.
Demolition
[This message has been edited by Demolition (edited March 12, 2001).]
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 657
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 13, 2001 01:29 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No way, the breech would be destroyed, and the barell would split/fragment.
c0deblue
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted March 13, 2001 02:01 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd steer clear of that if I were you. This was in fact a means occasionally employed by some losers in Vietnam to get rid of a hated officer or personal enemy ("fragging" was
another popular method). A rifle cartridge would be packed with HE or a stub of Det Cord and planted in the victim's ammo supply. When fired, the round would shear the
breach lock or fracture the receiver lugs - usually with fatal results since the bolt would be blown rearward at explosive velocity. If the weapon was being fired from the
shoulder it would pretty much tear most of the victim's head off. This didn't happen that often, but no real statistics are available - combat covered a multitude of crimes.
SMAG 12B/E5
Frequent Poster
Posts: 61
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 18, 2001 09:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cOdeblue, I was in Vietnam and privy to much more intelligence output than the average soldier. I don't recall reading or hearing of such an incident being used on American
officers. There was, however, a certain classified operation carried out against the communist which "seeded" communist 7.62 X 39mm ammunition. The technology was
similiar to, but more refined, the method you described. The effects were extremely rewarding. Some of that ammunition was recovered by GI's, contrary to regulations. The
results could be called, "Unfortunate". I am unsure as to whether the project still carries a classification or not. Details of such projects carried a classification of "TOP SECRET"
for 30 years which was downgraded to "SECRET" for the next 10...and so on. In ten years, I'll tell you the codename.
c0deblue
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted March 19, 2001 02:36 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I received this information from a trusted source (my Staff Sergeant cousin) during a three-month assignment in Vietnam as a civilian "observer". I was one of the lucky ones -
exempted from military service thanks to my aerospace/defense contractor employer. I heard (as well as saw) a lot during my three months there, but I never saw my cousin
again.
I don't question that activity of this sort went unreported - the effects would no doubt have been even more demoralizing for the troops than the war itself and the no-win
political intrigues that prevented our "side" from ever doing more than holding its own (if that). "Fragging" too went largely unreported (officially), yet its incidence is
undisputed by most who saw frontline action.
The operation you describe isn't surprising - I myself have been involved in a few officially sanctioned programs that required me to check "moral" concerns at the door.
However, your account of "accidents" involving spiked rounds "recovered against regulations" by our soldiers merely confirms that such incidents did indeed occur. If the
military and political brass chose to characterize these as "accidents" (and perhaps some were), so be it. My only purpose was to illustrate how dangerous HE-loaded rounds
are.
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
SATANIC
Frequent Poster
Posts: 232
From: australia
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 21, 2001 01:05 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I heard the same type of thing was done by the vietnamese (north) who put a detonator and small amouts of c-4 into zippo lighters. they were then given to soldiers, or 'left'
lying around
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 657
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 21, 2001 08:03 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
thats a short detonator!
------------------
5 out of 4 people have a problem with math.
SMAG 12B/E5
Frequent Poster
Posts: 61
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 21, 2001 10:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The VC also "short-fused US grenades and left them to be "found" and used. I blew a French grenade that had been modified and left for the dimwitted to play with. The most
disgusting was the use of children strapped with sapper charges and sent to approach servicemen.
Damn! Sorry, this is all way off topic.
Many people have made homemade rounds before, but you seriously have to know what your doing. Here's a link to an article about a guy in Canada that built his own 4-
bore.
http://www.cybertorpedo.com/africanhunter/firearms/4bore_part01_03.htm
I've occasionally read about experimental guns that utilized sky high chamber pressures (like 90-120kpsi!!!!) to pack alot of grunt into a relatively shorter barrel. Did these
weapons possibly use steel casings? HMTD Factory quoted figures about (typical?) strengths of Al and Brass casings, but maybe they simply used thicker casing walls and
stronger breech/barrels. These were usually large AT type rifles usually, which explains the desire for more bang in a shorter barrel.
Finally, about propellants. AP or any HE is surely overkill, but it would be nifty if we could come up with a propellant that was more powerful than the norm. That way you
could increase the power if you wanted, but you could also make much smaller casings! It would be cool to be able to load a 5.56mm NATO round into something similar to a
.22LR casing and have the same amount of power....... albeit in a custom gun.
Anyone wishing to make their own ammo should read "Homemade guns and homemade ammo", it is on the FTP.
Gun cotton was used in the naval guns of WWI and WWII. There's a site listing other propellants used in naval guns - http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/Gun_Data_p2.htm
I started by boring out the hole to make it slightly deeper / wider and due to my lack of knowledge on explosives I emptied out other .22 shells then I picked out the mercury
fumilate or lead azide (not sure what it was at the time) then I packed it very firmly into the hole that I had made in the lead bullet and capped it with wax.
I smoothed over the wax with a heated nail (yea I know stupid me) to get rid of the excess wax and sealing in the explosive. (very well I might add)
I never had a problem with these rounds when I used to use them the problem arisen when I took off the .22 rounds head and replaced the powder (not sure what class) with
powder I had previously taken from a shot gun shell (also don't know what class) it blew up the action on my gun and I ended up picking a few brass filing from my skin.
There is a forum member (unsure of who) who has succesfully made exploding .22LR rounds by filling hollowpoints with AP and then sealing the top (I think they used wax
:eek:, epoxy resin would definitely be safer).
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
ossassin November 25th, 2003, 09:43 AM
I'd suggest buying bullets from a large sporting-goods store or a specialized reloading shop. You could order them, too. (For those novices out there, a bullet is NOT the same
as a cartridge.) :rolleyes: That would probably be your best option if you're looking for a cheap way to get large quantities of bullets with which to make your own
ammunition.
Also, you definately need to use jacketed bullets. If they're not jacketed, they'll sure screw up your barrel over time, unless you clean it VERY well and VERY frequently.
Anyway, unjacketed bullets dont do anything special to ruin your barrel. They just seem to burn with more residue than jacketed bullets. I shoot unjacketed .22LR bullets
through my wheelgun all the time, and they only need cleaning every 200 rounds or so, if even that often.
IF used in high velocity rounds it builds up quite fast and is a royal pain to get cleaned out properly.
I shot a .357, mostly with .38 special ammo, hotter rounds may give different results.
1)if poisoned: what would be the most optimal poison to use (efficient and available)? Maybe powdered aconite root or phenol?
2) if explosive: primary explosive, kclo3 mixed with something or petn or ammo caps put into the bullets as shown in WRM?
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > The Improvised Munitions Handbook, and a ftp question
Log in
View Full Version : The Improvised Munitions Handbook, and a ftp question
I was wondering if anyone had a scanned/pdf version of this file, as having the actual sketmatics would be nice.
This also brings up another good question. Is there an official website/ftp that we can use for posting/finding large collections of material for this forum? I've done searches, and
found a few minor ftps (most of which are down), but no refrence to an official one. It'd be really nice to have just one place where we can go and find downloadable versions
of importaint material.
The other question about the pdf file still stands though, any help please?
2. You've posted something when you realize that you've got a link to the absolute authority on the subject, and must share it with everyone else, so that they can sing your
praises. Your new post is only one line, and your previous post is only 5 minutes old, but why bother editing it? BZZZZ! WRONG!
And newbies posting somewhere other than the water cooler risk execution for stupid mistakes, like yours. :)
And the black books are sadly inadequate, even with illustrations, since they were intended to be used by SOF soldiers who'd already had years of training and practice in
handling explosives, not 13 year olds with a pyro fetish.
However, i would have to disagree with you on the point of the black books. As you say, they are inadaquate for "13 year olds with a pyro fetish." I dont know about you, but
i wouldnt want a 13 year old who was compadent enough to manafacture heavy explosives. That being said, a little maturity and experience does wonders to the book. The
idea was to be able to create weapons from virtually any supplys that could be found in a war zone. While they're not meant for thirdgraders, the books are written in complete
laymen's terms. There is no talk of advanced chemestry, no balancing of equations, or special flasks required. For the most part all you need to understand is ratios, a concept
taught in 4th grade. Also, milatary training for the common soilder differs a far cry from a masters in chemistry.
And newbies posting somewhere other than the water cooler risk execution for stupid mistakes, like yours.
Well, as admin that is your choice to make. If you think i'm being offencive then you have every right to ban me--it is your job to do so. However, creating an enviroment
where people can loose their freedom of speach for superflious transgressions is rather facist. It defeats the very core idea that this forum is trying (in my understanding) to
perpetuate--free conmunication. The idea is to keep the information freely flowing the the uneducated public, correct? I fail to see how kicking out people for petty reasons
furthers this goal. It would seem to deter it to me.
In the end it's your choice, what type of comunity do you want this to be?
However, creating an enviroment where people can loose their freedom of speach for superflious transgressions is rather facist. It defeats the very core idea that this forum is
trying (in my understanding) to perpetuate--free conmunication. The idea is to keep the information freely flowing the the uneducated public, correct? I fail to see how kicking
out people for petty reasons furthers this goal. It would seem to deter it to me.
We're actually a very loose and mellow collection of people who just happen to have discovered that an enlightened dictatorship, with totalitarian enforcementof certain rules ,
leads to the most conducive conditions for the uninhibited discussion and freedom of speech of a subject matter often reduced (on other sites) to the lowest common
denominator of 12 year old pimply faced $k8t3r p(_)|\|kZ who wish to impress their equally "fearsome" 12 year punk friends with tales of having made c-4 from peanut butter
and Drain-O crystals.
Also, your grammer is atrocious, leading me to believe you're a 13 year old yourself. :)
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > Thermite Bullets
Log in
View Full Version : Thermite Bullets
An idea I had was to drill a hole 7mm in diameter inside a 9mm bullet... then fill the hole with thermite and cap the hole with a magnesium plug. The bullet will turn into
molten lead and iron inside the victims body. However, Im not sure if gunpowder is hot enough to light magnesium.
+++++++++++++++++
We'll keep the color of our posts to white, will we?
Rhadon
You would want to mix a strong oxidiser with the magnesium (powder it), this should ignite from the smokeless and also be hot enough to ignite the thermite.
Using lab grade iron oxide (red) and aluminium powder, mixed approx 3:2 by volume (could have been 2:1), I failed to get ignition when using smokeless propellant. It was
slow stuff, a mix out of pulled Eygptian army ammo (which is cheap and crap!) with a bit of Bullseye thrown in for bulk. I thought it was the Thermite, as it was mixed at least
three years ago, but it went fine when I touched a sparkler to it.
So no, it won't work. Pehaps with more powder, or a faster powder? I didn't have much smokeless, and I was setting it up in near darkness. I tried it because alt.pyro
suggested that it was quite good, but there you go.
From memory, I used to have fun getting Thermite started. The best way I ever came up with was either potassium or sodium chlorate and sugar mix. Make a pile of your
Thermite, stick a few bits of magnesium ribbon in it, sticking out like a fuse, then pour some KClO3/Sugar mix on it. Then light it by throwing on a match. It would go really
easy, and the Thermite would go from the Mg fuse, which went from the chlorate mix.
As an aside, we wanted to try to get it so we could set it up so it went of when it rained, using sodium to light the chlorate mix, but we couldn't get it to work. Probably a good
job, thinking about what it was going to be used for!! (It was very silly)
Look for tracer bullets. They come in just about ever caliber out there, and would give reults similar to what you suggested. They are pretty expensive, so its not a bullet you
can take to the range every week.
I'm not going to grace your idea with any more "on topic" remarks, but I DO want to say that it's a sad reflection on the forum today that a dullard newbie like you can make
an idiotic thread like this his first post and doesn't get shown the door immediately.
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > Interesting Shotgun Ammo and
Effects
Log in
View Full Version : Interesting Shotgun Ammo and Effects
I know they aren't necessarily improvised, but some are, and there isn't a better section.
All the following relates to 12 bore, unless otherwise noted.
Tracer rounds:
In the UK, there are now tracer rounds available for shotgun. They are very expensive, at about 1 a shot, and I don't know
how good they are. I just saw them, bought them, and forgot about them. Rediscovered them recently, and will report the
effects, etc. when I get a chance to shoot them. Available on a shotgun certficate in the UK. Apparently, they won't light a bale
of dry hay if fired right into it! :(
Slug rounds:
I have experience of four types of slug. In the UK, they are section one, which is highly restricted. The four types are:
(Note that this was a good, new modern design of shotgun, with nitro proof, but shorter chambers.)
Other rounds:
Shotshells
These are your standard shells. Good to about 45 yards, depending on the target and the shot size. The heavier the shot, the
less likely you are to hit the target, but the further they go. BB is quite a heavy shot, and goes about 65 yards. #10 is very
small, and goes about 35 yards. Chokes also play a part.
Dustshot
Available in .22, they are classed as shotgun ammo. Very fine dust-like lead shot. Good for fragging a tin can at arms' length,
but not much else. Available in 9mm and bigger for snakes, in some countries, apparently.
Rods
The only one I have no experiance of. Apparently, it is possible to fire a muzzle loader or shotgun loaded with a blank
cartrigde, whilst a rod has been put down the barrel. I seem to remember there is a phrase for it... This is what a lot of cadets
used to do, too, by dropping pencils down No.4 rifles loaded with blanks. Could also be done with an arrow?
I know that there are things like (comercial) grenade cartridges out there... so post about how good they are!:)
The first one is the simplest and maby most dagerous of them all. It consist of a standar shotgunshell cutt almost in two
around the vadding point, when shot the whole front half of the shell will leave the barrel and keep the pellets collected until
impact. This is ofcourse dangerous with a fully choked shotgun but it works nicely and i have been using it many times in my
old O/U
The second one is also an easy solution and probably the safest. It's made by cutting a small hole in the center of the
crimping end of the shell, then pour melted wax in the pellets thus holding all the pellets together in the pellets cup.
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
I have also replaced the pellets with one .50 cal led roundball, and it did work nicely.. the only prblem is the opening of the
shellcrimping.
Close by pushing hard with a bit of dowel a bit smaller than the end.
EDIT: Here is the thread, it appears that you also came up with the idea independently:http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/
showthread.php?s=&threadid=2981
How about using something like Hoppes or 009? They stink, and burn, and give off ammonia, but since they are designed for
cleaning firearms, they are never going to damage the bore.
1) What you have labeled a Brennek is actually called a Foster Type Slug and is what is considered a "normal" slug. Ususally
about 1oz of soft lead. Also they come in two types:
a) Rifled slug- small, twisted ridges all the way around the body of the slug to produce stabilizing spin in smoothbore unrifled
shotguns, much like the rifling in any other firearm.
b) Sabot- a smaller than barrel dimension slug encased in a plastic "shoe" - much like the "scary slug" you have described.
2) Brenneke Slugs are made of copper- they are fired out a sabot- they are not really a "type" of slug as Brenneke is a brand
name ( although many people call all of these types of slugs "brenneke")- there are several other brands that make
Brenneke type slugs.
3) Your scary slug is very scary- I will only say this once NEVER EVER EVER FIRE 3" SHELLS OF ANY TYPE IN A GUN ONLY
CHAMBERED FOR 2 3/4" shells. This is so dumb I can't beleive you did this. Anyone with a modicum of common sense would
tell you this is a VERY BAD IDEA! You are lucky that your gun didn't blow up in your face fool! Only fire 3" shells in a gun
designed and chambered for 3" shells!
Thank you for the advice. However, I took a calculated decision that the gun, and I, would survive. I wasn't using a crappy old
shotgun, but a very heavy barrelled (for a shotgun), under two year old O/U shotgun designed for shooting lots of rounds.
I know how far overpressure these things are, and I checked the proof marks, so was sure that the gun, although the wrong
chamber length, could take the higher pressures invloved, and that it also has an overbore barrel with a longer forcing cone.
As for the sabot design, yes, I recall that they were, in fact, sabotted. Very impressive things, they were. Lots of recoil, and
lots of target damage.
Sorry if the other terminology was a bit out. It isn't like I bought them somewhere I could speak the lingo, and it took almost
ten minutes to explain what I wanted in French!
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
zeocrash November 18th, 2003, 12:57 PM
i'm not sure about the practicalities of making one of these, but i seem to remember that back in the days before planes had
propper built in weapons (ww1), aviators used to just carry firearms in their cockpits and shot them at other planes, more like
an army soldier, in a plane rather than a pilot.
anyway one of the weapons used by the aviators was a shotgun.
instead of being loaded with standard shells, this shotgun was loaded with special ammo. in this ammo, the pellets were
lightly larger than usual and they were all connected together with a latice of cheese wire. anyway as i said before i'm not sure
about the practicalities of making one of these, but getting hit in the head or on a limb with one of these shots would cause
some very serious lacerations(sp?)
I could never get it to work well, though. I used 50lb breaking strain line, and fishing weights. The whole thing was about 50cm
on a side, triangular, and I thought it would be great.
Sadly, when I patterned one, the cardboard showed that the whole thing failed to spread out, and left just one funny shaped
hole. The second one cut a hole about two inches at the widest. The rest of the shot spread normally. I figure that the idea
would have worked if the barrel was rifled, or if the wire was stiff and springy. However, I baulked at putting a 50cm bit of
spring steel down the barrel of my shotgun!
Also, has anyone ever used a "Duplex" slug? It has two smaller slugs, that fire at the same time.
The wax idea is a very old trick, and shouldn't be tried through an old shotgun. I might try the scoring method.
Thinking of wax rounds, the "Hatton" round is a similar thing. It is a slug, but it is made, apparently, of metal dust (lead?)
mixed with wax. It is used for blowing door hinges off, and other types of dynamic entry, without much risk to people on the
other side of the door. It hits, dumps its energy, and vapourises/disintegrates, so nothing shoots through.
Again, anyone tried them? There are videos online from manufacturers. Do you have to be in really close, or do they hang
together when you fire one at a distance?
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/4206/slughist.html
http://www.dnrws.com/rottweil.html
Depending on who makes it they will have 2 round balls connected with wire or 2 flat pieces connected with wire.
here is a site that has several of the most common speciality rounds.
http://www.wapahani.com/equip3.html
the site is for a game but the descriptions and pics are accurate. the prices and damage they list is total BS.
The very fine pellets and all, make for the quick use of a very light and short fire arm, at rapidly moving targets or times of
limited opportunity, and the rounds are more or less very safe when discharged in such circumstances (safety glasses and ear
plugs) within places where grain handling & other such activites occour.
<ul>
<li><b>Big Bird</b>: A military round designed
to emmulate the 40mm flashbang rounds, it is said to have a report much
like that of a 40mm grenade launcher-something which is usefull for psy-ops.</font></li>
<li><b>Blanks</b>: Just that-loud report
and flash when fired but no damage.</font></li>
<li><b>Bolo</b>: Reminescent of an old Civil
War cannon load this cartidge is comprised of two steel weights connected to a strand of steel cord.</font></li>
<li><b>Buck & Ball</b>: A round loaded
with one slug and 6-00 buckshot pellets to offer both close up and long range stopping power.</font></li>
<li><b>Chain</b>: Just that, a 6 inch strand
of chain which is propelled from the shotgun shell.</font></li>
<li><b>Comet Slug:</b> A combination of a shotgun slug and tracer to allow one to view where the round is going
in nighttime conditions-it's yellow tracer is visible out to 300 meters</font></li>
<li><b>CS:</b> Used for riot control it is similiar to the FERRET round or CS grenades-but the quanity of agent
delivered is less.</font></li>
<li><b>Double Slug</b>: A round which is
loaded with two slugs instead of the tradtional one.</font></li>
<li><b>Door Busters</b>: A speciality round
for miliatary and counter-terrorist work as the load fires a find compressed load of buckshot which is used to take out the
hinges on doors.</font></li>
<li><b>Dragons Breath</b>: A special Incendiary/Tracer
round it's effects can be quite dramatic on those unprepared for it.</font></li>
<li><b>Home Defense</b>: This load was designed
for civilan use as the buckshot load is made from hollow brass material which is said to not overpenetrate the target.</font></
li>
<li><b>Mini Bean Bag</b>: Designed for riot
control or suspect apprehention it is a reduced bean bag round from the 70's.</font></li>
<li><b>Mini Grenade</b>: A military round designed to give the shotgun some offensive capability.</font></li>
<li><b>Riot Control</b>: These generally consist of wedges or other plastic batons which are used to strike people
without doing serious damage to them (thoguh the definition of serious is questionable).</font></li>
<li><b>Sabot:</b> Esentially a large Slug
round which is designed for Armor Piercing duties and longer range shots.</font></li>
<li><b>Teleshot</b>: A speciality round
of the military-it uses a unique method of being fired from the barrel (essentially a telescoping round which ejects the round)-
this process greatly reduces the noise from the shotgun making it extremelly quiet.</font></li>
<li><b>Thorn:</b> A speciality round loaded
up with tacks instead of buckshot or slug rounds.</font></li>
</ul>
The above might give people some ideas for working up their own toys. You could even try putting a tracker bug or something
in one, though I don't know if you could shoot a magnetic mine.
Shaneh, the .22 microshot cartridges I have used were perhaps capable of killing a sparrow at three inches. Beyond a foot, it
wouldn't even penetrate an empty aluminium coke can, and even at six inches, it only knocked it over, leaving two very small
holes. Considering how hard you need to hit a rat to kill it (I know you need a head shot with an airrifle most of the time, and
I have heard about enough that crawled away when hit by .22 rounds in the hindquarters or even lungs!) I suspect these must
be for about boot length distance!
Have you ever used any? What effects do they have on targets?
Ok just before I get too off topic, if the same applies to a shotgun then the ammo would probaly do quite well against body
armor. Nails would do more damage and should have a similar effect. SWIM would probaly use 2in long bullet head nails fly
straight, since they'd be bigger and heavier.
They have been around for many years and have been made in several calibers.
You can get the parts to make your own or buy the loaded rounds.
Here are a few sites that give information on several types of rounds.
http://www.antipersonnel.net/sdllc/007.html
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
http://www.hi-vel.com/Catalog__17/Specialized_Shotshell_Ammuniti/specialized_shotshell_ammuniti.html
http://www.wapahani.com/rifles.html
http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/4-30.13/appf.htm
http://www.v8go.co.uk/business/technical/weapons/ammunition.asp
The last link gives you links to many other ammunition sites.
Hope this information helps you with what your looking for.
Fair enough- I still say this is a very bad idea. The issue isn't really that the 3" shells are higher pressure ( to begin with) than
2.75"- the fact is when stuffed into a shorter chamber, the pressure can be many times as high as with a shell designed for
that chamber. Reason is that the shell will not open properly in the short chamber, increasing pressure dramatically ( over and
above the difference in the two to begin with) sometimes enough to burst even new, well made guns. You sound like you have
some idea of what you are doing- however many of those who browse these forums don't - and if they go out and emulate
your actions with some POS single shot- not a pretty picture. The same thing could be said for much of the info in this forum-
but I would at least hope that those choosing to play with explosives (and such) understand that that there is an element of
danger involved.
I quite agree. You were right to point it out, and right to call me on it. That's why I took no offense. :)
The "scary" ones had an open end, with an unfamilier rolled back crimp. I reckoned it would be a lot shorter to open, as well.
You are so right, though. Headspace/chamber length is very important. That is why cartridges have a minimum cartridge
overall length (COL) as well as a maximum COL. If you wnat to fuck your firearm, just hammer the bullet back into the case,
and then try to fire it. For 7.62 NATO, the pressure spike doubles with 5 thousands of an inch too short, or something scary!
Also, there is no way on earth I would have tried it through my single barrelled shotgun, which is a light game gun, with a light
barrel, and bad recoil even on light loads. It has about a fifth as much steel as the O/U, and is Russian. It also has a small
pin inside the barrel, where the foresight is! Fire a high pressure slug through that, and you wouldn't fire anything ever again!
PHAID,
I tried making flechette rounds by cutting up wire coat hanger, then grinding them. I don't recall ever firing any, though, as
they were too long for the cartridges I had, and I was convinced they would somehow jam sideways in the barrel/chamber if I
didn't make loads and pack them in tight.
can you provide some details? Are these novelty items, or do they have some kind of use? Are they commonly available? Who
makes them?
They are made for the purpose of animal control to scare birds from orchards and such.
These days they are mostly a novelty item as most places now use the propane cannons.
can you provide some details? Are these novelty items, or do they have some kind of use? Are they commonly available? Who
makes them?
I strongly advise you to read both the official rules, and the "Unwritten rules: Written Down" post in the "Water Cooler" section.
If you don't do these things then I'm sure your stay here at Rogue Science will be very short...
The shell wouldn't be fired, it'd go off on impact with the ground. You'd throw it (Assuming I'm correct about this marble thing.
I'm just guessing, really.) and it'd detonate. Since these aren't regular shotshells, they don't have to be stabilized or actually
pointed at anything. You could make a mace grenade, sure, but the shotgun shell is pre-assembled, and cheap.
Yeah, the malodrant launchers. IIRC the new FN rifle mounts an one, a FN 303. Their site says they rupture on impact,
though, and you'd need to be a major league pitcher to actually get an impact that would shatter it, I suspect. Also, they're
only .68 cal, so they'd be unlikely to actually affect an entire room.
You can buy a box of 150 .68 OC capsules for 445 USD, so they cost about three bucks a pop.
Flake: Thanks, I'll look out for the PDF. I imagine the whackier rounds are really just used for entertainment purposes. As far
as entertainment rounds are concerned, I've always wondered about making a screw-filled shell.
The article would seem to be wrong, though, as a dime is just right for a 12, but would be too small for a 10.
http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/Shotguns.html
3th - Ive tried the coins once, I saw the movie "young guns II" and tahe some one cent coins from my country. The coins fit
on a 36ga perfectly, but the experience wont worth my 5 cents. The shot isnt acurate, the coins tend to fly upwards, with an
ugly pattern, maybe 10 inchs out of the aiming point at 10 meters, plus the stopping power of the shot barely take out my
ballistic gelatin.
Jack's Complete : In your reference to the "coin idea". It was used in the old west. It was used to maximize close range punch
without over penetration. There is a round here in the US that is simular it is called a Safety Slug. I apologize but i do not
remember which company was manufacturing it. It is comprized of many lead/antimony disks scored three times across the
face. Many police forces are using them to eliminate overpenetration i.e. killing inoccents on the other side of an interior wall.
It only seems to be for close range so it might not be of much use as many light disks will certianly lose inertia rather quickly.
To the moderators I would've edited my post but it didnt show up, so if I screwed up lemme know.
Also, I recall a discussion on another forum about those .22 dust rounds. Apparently, performance when fired from a
smoothbore rather than a rifled bore is very different. Perhaps this difference would allow close range ratting?
Also, the crimped variety of .22 shotshells work much better than the plastic capped ones such as those manufactured by CCI.
Mods: if I post some pics here of the gun and a heap of 'ratshot' for informational and comparative purposes would this be
alright?
Sure, just make sure that any images you post don't stretch the page horizontally when viewed at 800x600
----------------
If you post a link, try it first. I fixed it for you this time. It might be worth mentioning that the site you're leading us to does
not only contain Finnish but also English text. Else everyone will close it at once when he sees that he cannot understand a
word of what's standing on the first page.
Rhadon
With the dart just remember that whatever the shot weight the powder charge was meant to propel, if your dart is hevyer it
may be very bad for your health ;) .
I won't be able to test fire it for some time, though. I promise to get the digicam on the case, though.
Seriously, you think sharpened bamboo skewers doing ~Mach 1 wouldn't sting more than a little? 35 of them?
I know they don't weigh much, but they have a lot of length, so the mass to CSA should be enough for them to carry a fair
way. I reckon 25-35 yards.
Stability might be an issue, and I expect the group to be somewhat large, even fairly close, but we shall see (probably not for
six weeks+ though)
Around here its 2mm dia, 15 centimeters long, cut directly paralell to the fibers alignment. Small flechetes can be cut, 5
centimeters long to sharpen the point, but its not very funtional, as its an light load. I think that, by 10ft it can stop anyone,
at least for a while.
The point is that its not really precise, but if you cut its back, cross section, youll get four traction points to stabilize the
flechet.
Im trying another round, its an piece of white pinus, an very soft wood, cut and round the size of the gauge and with an
holle drilled, from top to almost bottom.
This hole, that on one 12ga. is the size of one .44, is then filled with molten lead to form an slug. After that, I cut diagonal
grooves, from top to bottom, on the wood, to make it spin when shot and to easily disinthegrate the wood after it contacts the
target. The wood acts as an discarding sabot to guide the slug and give a very high rate of acuracy.
Another kind of shot is based on the same principles, but, instead of the lead be poured directly on the hole, an small piece
of copper tubbing is put inside the hole and then, the molten lead. It gives an softpoint metaljacket slug, with good
penetration and an beautifull mushroom pattern.
Dave, for your idea, I think you would do better to drill a brick for the casting, else the lead will set fire to the wood. Let us
know how you get on.
First Ive tried to soak the wood on water, to cool donw the lead, but it was an disaster, the vapour tried to pass through the
molten lead, splashing it everywhere... Then I found that a little on wax on the walls of the piece of wood can protect it from
being burned, and also, to ease the flux of lead to it dont develop bubles inside the slug.
Ive found, also, that when an small piece of copper tubing is inside of the wood, it steals much of the temperature of the
lead, and it dont allows the wood be burnt.
The next weekend Ill go to my familys farm and Ill test my shots, after that Ill post.
no, I meant use the brick as a mould, then pop it out, and attach to the wood.
I can see what you are getting at, though. Try using oak, or a good hardwood, and it should be better than softwood. Firstly it
has a lower moisture content, and second it resists fire far better, turning to a harder charcoal.
First off, firing a 3 inch shell out of a 2 3/4 inch chamber has not a damned thing to do with pressures.
A 2 3/4 inch chamber only has enough room for the crimp on that size shell to open.
When you fired a 3 inch shell the crimp opened and overlapped the shoulder at the end of the chamber where it starts into the
barrel. That causes a blockage where the shot load and wad cant cleanly exit the barrel. The pressure ratings for the shells are
unobstructed pressures. When you fired didn't you notice that you probably ripped the crimp right off the shell? Not neatly
opened it? You probably now have a bulge in your barrel, and your damned lucky that it didn't rumpture in your face.
I've seen that happen from other idiots that can't read the print on the side of the barrel "FOR 2 3/4 INCH SHELLS ONLY!!!".
One of the jackasses lost his right eye, and quite a bit of his face and nose. Not to mention destroying a beautiful Browning
Gold.
Do you think they put that there for shits and giggles? The pressure you hit in that gun was probably 3 - 4 times HIGHER than
what the shells are supposed to fire at.
Your trying to talk about this subject like you are an authority on it, and your just going to get some kid killed.
And before you wonder what kind of an authority I am on the subject. I just turned 29 yesterday. I have been firing rifles and
shotguns weekly sometimes daily since I was 11 years old.
I reload shotgun, pistol and rifle. I compete in long range rifle, rifle silhouette, pistol silhouette, action pistol, sporting clays,
trap, skeet, and even 3D archery.
I AM and authority on the subject. Your "calculated risks" are either going to get you or someone else killed. If its someone
else I hope you can live with yourself when you find out. If its you, well then we can all agree that Darwins law is beneficial to
humans as well. You'll have improved the population, by removing yourself from it.
Has anyone ever tried anything like this? I think getting 100 yards would be impossible with a heavy glass bottle full of petrol/
oil mix - a stick doesn't go that far!
Also, that picture should surely show a lanyard! If the stick goes through the bottle base, you will be on fire in .02 of a second!
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
(There's quite a lot missing from this thread, like my lengthy reply on why what I did was fine, the remote firing tests,
checking for bulges and signs of cartridge overpressure, etc. I assume it went after iDickhead closed us down. To paraphase:
Yes, you know a lot, but so do I. I'm fine, I posted that it was dangerous, and that you shouldn't try it at home. What more
can I do? I did it over TEN years ago.)
I know there are a lot of "classic" tricks that do nothing but kill the user!
You take any cartrigde, fill it full of any HE, and give it someone to fire from a gun. The Viet Cong did this, to get US troops
who took war trophies. BANG! The gun explodes, and takes half your face with it.
how tight a fit is it? You could try different makes, and I would suggest testing each one before starting work on it, in case
some are a bit too tight compared to the next.
You could always just take a little metal off with some wire wool or glasspaper.
how tight a fit is it? You could try different makes, and I would suggest testing each one before starting work on it, in case
some are a bit too tight compared to the next.
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
You could always just take a little metal off with some wire wool or glasspaper.
how tight a fit is it? You could try different makes, and I would suggest testing each one before starting work on it, in case
some are a bit too tight compared to the next.
You could always just take a little metal off with some wire wool or glasspaper.
P e p p er, fle ch ette, duplex, "triplex", armor piercing, blanks, double slug, slug a nd 00 buck combo, 2 mushroom ing, 7-10
round mag extensions, etc. My personal favorite is the 12 GA. Exploder: "A stabilized, finned slug with a deep hollow core for
loading combustible materials."
http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/pg31.html
Extreme Sh ock 12 ga silent frangible , whistle a n d cubic sh ot and o ther rifle and handgu n cartridges, including "enhan ce d
penetration": http://www.extremeshockusa.com/cgistore/store.cgi?page=/new/
product.html&setup=1&ida=7&idp=0&his=0&cart_id=333251.8584
http://www.scribd.com/doc/6047003/shotgungrenademadabe
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > silenced ammo
Log in
View Full Version : silenced ammo
For a close combat weapon(I'll use a HkMp5 for an example weapon) I dont think there is any way around it. Your still just throwing a small peaice of metal going very slow.
The only way I see is to totaly use a different concept of firearm like a coil gun or a pnuematic weapon system but I dont think this what your talking about. Shooting heavy
bullets(600-1000grains) even at slow speeds will give alot of recoil even with a good muzzle break so a combat sub-machine gun would be out of the question unless you were
limited to double or maybe triple shot bursts.
Hitting a target in the kevlar vest with a 800 grain bullet going 900 feet per second would be similar to getting hit by a basball bat....
For more target damage you want more energy in foot pounds to hit your target, use this formula for determining bullet energy. Formula - Bullet weight (grains) x velocity
(feet per second) squared 450240 (constant)
One other way to go is to shoot a delaied rocket, so it gains speed later and sounds competely different.
Here is a link to a site that shows the basic construction of common bullet types.
http://world.guns.ru/ammo/bullets-e.htm
Actually, they want kills. A man with a bullet in his leg will shoot back. A dead guy wont. As far as I know, neither WWII, Korean, Vietnam, nor Desert Storm used this strategy.
There isnt anything stating that this was the stretegy. Besides, why are all soliders and snipers trained to aim for the chest and head?
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
BTW why was keith banned?
The reason for this is that if a squad member is hit in the head, he is killed instantly and you now have one person unable to fight. If he received a 5.56mm wound to the chest
area, it would take 2 to 4 more soldiers to carry him to safety as well as the rest of the squad being demoralized by his gurgling screams. This makes the wounded soldier, plus
the ones that carry him, unable to fight as well as demoralizing the rest of his squad.
The desire for casualties instead of kills is one of the reasons for modern assault rifles being chambered in 5.56mm or 5.45mm instead of more powerful cartridges such as
7.62mm, .308, or .30-06. Note that sniper rifles, for use in situations where kills are desired, are chambered in these more powerful cartridges.
And keith was banned for being a faggamuffin in general and saying stupid things.
The reason the US uses .223 is becuase it is smaller, lighter (210 rounds compared to 100), easier to control during FA fire, and uses up less resources to make. And as far as I
know, there are no official sources confirming that technique was used in any war the US fought in. This strategy might be a personal thing, but I sure as hell wouldnt use this
technique, nor would I be around anyone that plans on doing so.
Most landmines will only bloy your foot or leg off, the rounds you fire will only kill if you get a direct hit on a vital organ.
As for why we were trained to shoot at the chest is simple, It is the BIGGEST target.
About any shooting training you recieve will instruct you to shoot center mass, All that shooting in the arm, leg, head that hollywood shows is BS.
If you get nailed in one of those areas in battle it was by pure chance not that they aimed for it.
No it isnt military policy to shoot to maim ( That isnt politicly correct ) but they did realise it was an added bonus that reduced your enemies ability to fight on 3 levels.
You get one man down from the wound.
You tie up a few to care for them
You kill the morale of the men around him.
XYZ has it correct in his answer and NickSG you are correct that they went to the 5.56mm due to the weight and increase of ammo that can be carried in a battleload.
Narkar the military is restricted to FMJ rounds but can use "penetrators" .
They design the rounds to be unstable enough that contact with the target will cause them to tumble causing damage like a hollowpoint or softpoint round.
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > Reloading 26.5mm
Log in
View Full Version : Reloading 26.5mm
Oh, and could you tell me, if you're from the US, who you got the flare pistol off of and for how much? I'd like to see if I got ripped off in terms of price.
The reason I said I am having minimal success is because even with the 209 shotgun primer, it seems that the maximum distance and kick are less than the factory rounds. I
have been using shot shell reloading powder (green dot double base smokeless powder to be exact) in my reloads. After taking apart one of the red flares, the powder charge
weighed in at 1.18 grams. Replicating this in my own reloads still results in an underpowered charge; it seems that with the reloads all the powder does not burn before the
projectile leaves the barrel. This is obvious when I fire the flare over a snowy field the shot shell powder can be seen unburned and speckled across the snow. If you have any
idea as to the culprit of my underpowered loads (ha-ha, yeah immature humor) I would be interested to hear your opinions. Insufficient pressure, wrong weight projectile, etc
all come to mind.
Third_Rail, what type of reloads are you dong? What size powder charge, payload, etc. I have tried quarters to some success. One inch PVC tubing persuaded with a lighter to
fit into the 25mm interior provides a tight fit as well. Regardless, I am still unable to mimic the distance or kick of the factory loads.
The powder your using is too slow burning, that's why the residue of unburned powder and the lack of range and recoil. Check the web and see where Green Dot rates and
pick a powder about 2 steps faster in burning rate.
With the new powder cut back on the charge 10-15% and "work up" to the ammount your using now just to be on the safe side. If you get to that same ammount and it still
doesn't have the range step up another 1 or 2 burning rates and again back off the charge 10-15%.
One solution to the primer issue that I have not had the chance to experiment with yet is filling the primer pocket with JB Weld (a cold weld epoxy, google it to find more) and
then drill out a new primer pocket to fit a standard rifle or pistol primer. This would both reduce the pressure created by the primer, and reduce the size of the flash hole
hopefully encouraging ignition of the powder. There is also concern when reloading 37 mm casings that only a small rifle or pistol primer should be used as the primers for shot
shells are not soft enough to ensure initiation by the relatively week firing pin spring of the flare gun. This is a concern, although after inspecting the spent primers from over a
dozen reloads there does not appear to be any sign of significantly shallow primer dents.
A-Bomb, I did notice that the powder inside the factory loads was not of any spherical, tubular, or flake smokeless powder I had seen before. I will pick up a can of pyrodex
along with some new primers. Is it ok to use a black powder substitute such as pyrodex? Also, by the way, what loads are you reloading with; inert projectiles, flare comp,
smoke comp? I was just curious.
TreverSlyFox, being that the flares appear to be basically a large gage shot shell, I assumed Green Dot would be the powder to go for. If done carefully I dont see how
it can hurt to try out a different powder along with black powder substitutes. Maybe Mr. Kaczynski chose the powder of choice when he went with Red Dot.
It seems that there are quite a few variables to test, once I have a chance to get some more supplies and some time I'll go through and try to isolate the issue. It is also
possible that the weight of the projectile has an effect. A higher weight projectile produces higher pressure levels before exiting the barrel
Edit:clarify grammar
Look under the AMMO Section. Dan's stuff is First Class as is Dan...
MP
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > Homeload tests.
Log in
View Full Version : Homeload tests.
The first, letf, is from a homemade load, called glasser. Its an coper jacket, filled with 00 buckshot and wax. The jacket is full metal. The projectile weigths 90 grains.
The penetration is regular and te expansion phase is realy violent, with an huge exit hole.
The second, left is from an holow point, also homemade from an regular FMJ files down and then holowed. It weigths 125 grains
The penetration is fine, the expansion is nice at its initial phase, with total fragmentation of the lead and an beautifull flower pattern of the final projectile.
The 3th and 4th, left are control shots, with comercial bullets and regular powder charges, all with 125 grains and 6 grains of 1200 rex
The second image is from the exit hole of the glasser shot.
Now, glasser with 90 grains on the projectile and 6 grains of 1200 REX
Holow with 125 grains on the bullet and 6 grains of 1200 REX
Comercial ammo (FMJ), 125 grains and 6 grains of 1200 REX
The "balistic gelatin" is made of soap bars, and the pictures where taken from the back of the shots, entry hole, expansion phase and exit hole (top to bottom).
From there I can found that, even being ligther, the glasser shot is more destructive, but can easily be stoped by an bulletproof vest.
I was thinking that, if my magazine can hold 15 shots, I could load it with 4 HP, 8 glasser and 3 FMJ, to overcome the eventuality of an bulletproof vest.
I don't have experience in firing at people, but I'd rather hit them and leave a hole (albeit clean) first, and then follow up with other shots, than work on the chance they're not
wearing any armour and just piss them off. Plus whether you'll get off 15 shots at one person is debatable. More interesting would be a mag loading with the french (?) bullet,
the name of which escapes me at the moment, it's the the extremely pointed one.
EDIT: A hardened steel jig could make it very easy to consistently file FMJ/TMJs to the same height.
What Level of Body Armor are you wearing at this time and what are you going to do when you are hit by his first round?
MP
At my Country we cant purchase HP ammo, so, we need to make our own. The weird point is that it cant be legaly purchased, but if you have this kind of bullet at your
weapon, and shoot someone with it, the cops cant ad nothing to your penalty, as its use isnt forbidden...
About shoot people, sometimes we are forced to do it, and maybe many people at once... The idea is to have an good combination of stoping power, fragmentation and
penetration. As we cant use weapons with calibers superior to the .380, we dont have much power at hand.
MP5, due to the high level of criminality at my Country, level III balistic vests are commomplace around here. The drug dealers and bank robbers use even military vests, and
they have the nasty habit of wear it all the time.
The idea is that the first or second shoots over the vest be enough to disable the agressors, but no one knows when will be necessary to shoot again or to shoot someone else.
Of course I dont want to engage on one gunfigth, as I dont use bodyarmor, but I cant foresee when it could happen.
Ive been shot tree times in my life, one time when my mother, who was an federal judge, drove her car away of an ambush. The shot hit me at my rigth side, as it bounced
inside the door, and today its at my armpit. Its one 7,65 mm, huge bullet, but low power ammo.
The second time was at school, someone was jealous about one girlfriend I had and simply draw an gun to me, shooting me tree bullets before some friends knock him down.
One bullet hit my chest, passing through my rib and missing my lung for one inch, the 2nd bullet hit my diaphragm on an direct shot. The 3rd shot hit me when I was falling,
and its found my shoulder, breaking my bone. It was an .32 calliber revolver.
The 3rd time was on army. I was an Lt, and some day 4 FN FALs where stolen from our armorial. We discover that one soldier sell it to some bandidos who where on the
"favela" (many poor constructed houses, build at hillsides, and an traditional hideout to drug dealers and such, which are too dangerous to policial forces as its practicaly an
maze of narrow street and dead ends).
We went to the "favela" and were received with firepower enough to stop an batalion. An caporal was hit by automatic fire and was killed, and I and another soldier try to run
to cover. I was hit by .308 shots from one of our guns, which broke my leg, hit my hip and found my back the most desirable spot to lay some small pieces of lead. Now I
have some bullets all over my body, as the medics found that isnt necessary to remove it.
And yes, Im over medication all the time, "gardenal" an anti- spasmodic, because of the shoots at my back mess with my local nerves, "berotec", an bronco - dilatator, as
one of my lungs was permanently damaged by the .308 and some analgesics to figth the pain of my wounds.
And you think that living in Brazil was an easy task. Ask Guerrero, Sarevok or Lameiras about what Im talking about.
Anyway, this should only be done in revolvers. BTW a .38 special wadcutter will cut a larger hole than a .45ACP FMJ. Pretty good huh?
FYI CCI/Speers Blazer bullets are all TMJ. The cases are aluminum so they are pretty cheap, but they cannot be reloaded.
Dave I am a Licensed Manufacturer of Machineguns and Suppressors and I sell quite a few Ballistic Vests to Law Enforcement. Their Turn-In's I use for demonstrations on why
Vests should be replaced Bi-Annually. In other words I shoot at alot of used vests to prove a point.
My point in my post is just about anyone shot wearing a vest is going to go down from the initial impact if not alone from the shock of being hit so a follow up shot in the same
area of the vest is generally out of the question altogether just for informational purposes.
MP
To overcome this problem, I simply do a little filing & polishing on the copper of the back of the bullet and it works fine. from what I found, the now round back of the bullet
(was the tip) allows an better flow of the gases through the crown of the barrel, which keeps an better precision rate.
The wadcutter point (was the back) realy opens an huge entering hole, and expands prety well, specialy when partialy hollowed, doing an massive wound when exits the
target.
I take some pictures to post, its on the developing laboratory and I should catch it by friday, then I scan and put on the Forum.
About foreing ammunition producers, my Country dont alow importation or comercialization of ammunition manufactured out of here. Only plain "Companhia Brasileira de
Cartuchos" and such can be purchased around here, the others being smugled through the borders, specialy Paraguay and Argentina or received by mail.
Our Senate is even doing some laws to give serial number to each bullet produced around here.
MP5, that was my point, one person shot when using Bullet Proof Vests can be disabled by the shock, but as you know, some bigger persons can handle better the shock, and
even regular people can recover a lot quicker, specialy when on drugs like coke and crack.
As I cant get caugth using 9mm or .45, I need something that can bypass the BPV or do some massive damage on targets without the BPV, hence the tests.
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > kitchen sink reloading
Log in
View Full Version : kitchen sink reloading
You can reuse a primer, here is how (as taught in the book Homade Guns & Homade Ammo) :
If you pack it tight (untill it can be hung up-side-down and lightly taped without falling out) it will hold. Beleive me! I have done it many times and it works like a charm.
Give it a shot you may be suprised how well it works.
You can also powderize the red part or kitchen matches for gun powder/the main charge (of corse this is not as powerful as real smokeless powder, but is pretty powerful).
Here is the number of matchheads that should be used for gunpowder per caliber (as seen in U.S. Army Manual TM 31-210 and the book Homade Guns & Homade Ammo) .
The point is to show how you can make somewhat efective munitions with conscript materials at desprit times (if you do not have the balls to try it, thats fine at least try the
primer without any powder). Since this does not create as much power or PSI's (Presure Per Square Inch) as regular ammo it is pretty safe. Once again this is not as efective as
regular ammo.
- U.S.M.C-Man
Oh yes, I did forget to say that it is a currosive powder and your gun should be cleand after.
- U.S.M.C-Man
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > Mercury bullets?
Log in
View Full Version : Mercury bullets?
Melting out all the lead and filling the jacket up with mercury sounds like not only a really BAD idea but time consuming, too,
even if it worked. The copper jacketing is so thin your bullet would not retain any shape when fired and you'd more than likely
be spraying precious mercury out the muzzle with every shot and fouling your barrel bore with ripped pieces of jacket.
I would definitely be more inclined to fill a factory hollow point 3/4 full with mercury then top it off with superglue or hot melt
glue. You might even drop a .177 BB on top of the mercury and glue it there for extra mushrooming effect. (the mercury will
kill them sure as shit, but a nice expanding round in the guts will neutralize them until the real payload hits the heart via the
bloodstream). :D
[Edit: I take no credit for the BB idea. It's been around a long time and IIRC has been posted here before on another
thread.]
Just aim and make your shots count, don't waste mercury.
And like I said, mercury dissolves lead. Don't believe me? Test it out.
I personally use mercury to remove lead fouling from barrels now and then.
Mercury will form an amalgam with lead, after a while. This stops it being liquid, and so the effect you want is lost.
Mercury is very nasty, so don't go breathing it's fumes. It is very heavy, too, but I doubt that stabilisation will be too hard.
The harder jacket of 90/10 brass will take the strain of the mercury through the rifling rotation, I think. They certainly seem
tough as hell, but try it out first.
You will have fun getting the void totally filled and then sealed, which you need to do so that an air bubble doesn't ruin any
chance at accuracy. Mercury will run to the outside as it is spun, and so effects on the point of impact are to be expected. The
way around this is to leave no air gap.
You wouldn't want the mercury filling in a bullet like a .223, since they already destroy themselves on impact (or go right
through without expanding, but simply turning over once to go base first) and they are very fast spinners doing Mach 2.
You use the mercury idea in a very slow bullet, so that it still expands horrifically on impact, even at extended ranges.
You don't need to be a chemist, only to know that Mercury is heavier than lead, yet liquid at room temperatures, and toxic.
You could easily use a different lethal toxic substance, but they would be far lighter, reducing the effect of the initial shot.
Mercury alloy can melt on impact with target but the lead based alloy can too, so what is the purpose? Is the main goal to
make an ammo with altered balistic properties or to deliver toxic payload? In the first case you are on wrong tracks since it can
be made through different means, in the second case that poison is so slow acting that unless completely uninformed and
without means to find an entry point (which in case of .220 only blind man can do) a low-grade-shit of a medic can cure (in not
so many words find stronger fast acting poison to bust the ammo). In my oppinion you tried to combine two oposed strategy
but you missed. In the case of changing balistic properties you waste a fortune, and in toxic "candy" you are being so cheap:)
If I am not reading your post wrong you seem to be speaking rather condecendingly towards A-Bomb. I gathered that he
simply has ALOT of mercury on his hands and thought he'd open for discussion this avenue of use. Sorry only few of the posts
in this thread were worthy of your eyes...
Only few post make this post worth of reading IMHO A-BOMB. [SNIP!]
No hard feeling I hope. Keep that spirit.
Why don't you go ahead and call him "Boy" like he's a preteen or something? :rolleyes: The rest of us will try to do better.
So the jacket would spin, but the core would stay put. I don't know enough about ballistics to say for certain, but I think this
would totally wreck accuracy, as the jacket would be spinning way too fast and the mercury core would hardly be spinning at all.
interesting point! So the effective spin on the bullet would be very much slower than the speed of the jacket - almost like it
was with a far lighter twist. So it would seem to have a lower inertia.
Increasing the twist rate of the bullet would do little, either, and given the rate of spin (around 28000 rotations per second for
a .30-06, faster [almost twice the rate] for a .223) there would be little point. I think you would get interesting frictional
heating issues, too.
I'm quite sure it could be done, but you would need a glass or plastic liner, or something else which would stop the mercury
reacting.
Basically anything that splits the mercury up into many little sections that are heavily restricted (if not totally prevented) from
intermingling.
I used to hunt squirrels with hollow point .22 mercury filled hollow points the same day and I didn't notice any drop in accuracy
mind you it was only a .22 LR rifle and I wasn't taking any long range shots.
Usually what I did was took a drill bit and by hand reamed out some lead in a hollow point put in a bead of mercury then
capped it with wax.
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
I also tested out the effects of a mercury filled hollow point to a normal hollow point the mercury had more of a splash effect
(not sure of the right terminology) than the normal hollow point on a steel plate.
As to the spinning of the bullet and a liquid core, I don't believe that there will be an adverse effect as the mercury should be
vicous/dense enough that it will be spinning at the same rate as the jacket before the bullet even leaves the bore.
Mercury loads are real but hard to make. One must understand that these are almost always used on .22 rimfire bullets
because of the bullet design. If it has a jacket, its kinda not worth it. You have a limited time to make and shoot the mercury
load. How it works is when you fire the bullet, the mercury slams to the back of the bullet. If/when the bullet hits something,
like the other side of the guys head (depending on a close or long range shot or subsonic or HV bullet) the mercury "keeps
going" like a deadblow hammer, but worse because it moves omnidirectionally often blowing the bullet apart.
What you essentially have is a serious kinetic energy transfer. I've heard from unoffical sources that you can take a chunk out
of concrete with one. There is a legal liquid core .22 in short, subsonic, high velocity and .22 magnum. I'm going to buy some
but i'm going to get someone to do an official test. I'll keep the source secret for my own interests but the bullet says it uses
a non-toxic liquid core. It also says it gets adequate penetration. Mercury loads are not legal because its a poison. But a non-
toxic substitute seems to be no problem. There are hillbilly loads called "oilpack" bullets. Its a HARDCAST lead bullet drilled
and filled 3/4 with oil, then closed off with a hard steel bb. When it hits the bb is driven farther into the bullet and causes the
bullet to fracture into pieces.
The oilpack are legal to make and probably not too hard. It would pay to have a heavyer caliber like .44 magnum. Someone
should try to make some and test results. I would imagine a little trial and error would be needed. I think a perfectly lathed
bullet that is then moulded into a cast and then the cast is used to make a hard cast bullet, experimenting with alloy to be
super hard and more fracture prone with consistent accuracy, would be the best idea. Rather than just trying to drill a hole in a
bullet and hope it doesnt wobble in the air.
Theres something called an ignatron. They have anywhere from 7 ounces to 3lbs of mercury in them. Look around I'm sure
you'll find one.:D
The Hg that came from these ignitrons has alot of oxide in it. It needs very much to be purified. I can hardly see the shiny Hg
for all the dark grey oxide.
Wash the goo with warm water (outside!) to dissolve the water soluble oxides, decant off from the insoluble mercury, and
evaporate under vacuum to recover.
Then, wash the metallic Hg with dilute (~10%) nitric acid to remove remaining oxides and salts, filter through chamois leather,
and finally distill through glass under high vacuum (or iron pipes at high heat).
Many years ago, back before the days of the .300 whisper actually. I used to use a M1 Carbine for work. Being a neat little
carbine with 18 inch barrel it could be handled inside the vehicle whilst operating the spotlight. It would deck most pest
animals with ... moderate accuracy.
However, as I got tinkering I decided that hollow point ammo would be a great advantage for Kangaroos and other medium to
light game. At the time I had a case trimmer (RCBS) with interchangeable tips, I had a boring tip made up to go into the tail
stock of the trimmer in which I used with great success. The complete round was loaded into the head of the machine and
clamped into place, then the tail was brought up to the projectile tip to ensure correct allignment, seldom was it out of place,
and then you would bore the hollow tip by rotating the handle.
Accuracy was on par for what I was achieving at the time with a great increase in stopping power.
But those were the days before hollow points could be had for the 30M1, it was either surplus FMJ or a reloaded case with a
90gn Torakev cast projectile (that clogged up the gas port hole in the barrel, if you got them to feed reliably anyway) If you
were going to load anything else it would have been a deep seated heavier .308 projectile (as total length was restricted by
the tiny magazines) travelling at sub-sonic speeds, so often threaded barrels were seen with .30M1's. Unfortunately with the
sights the way they were often the tube length was increased because the diameter of the silencer was limited to being able to
see sights (and thus the carbine became too long for vehicle work) It wasn't until later that scope mounts turned up for the
carbine and descent silencers started to be manufactured. By the time this happened however commercial ammo was starting
to turn up, and the .30M1 calibre wasn't all too popular with other advancements.
A farm hand at the time suggesting mercury tips, at which of of carse I totally rejected. He argued something along the line of
a 30 cal projectile, travelling subsonic and silenced with the added factor of mercury would be perfect for repeat offenders to
knock things (probably people knowing the lad) off. I wouldn't have them in my rifle or on my dies.
I can't remember his suggested method of sealing the tip, but it required using my press to either place or crimp something
(either way it was done at the stroke of the handle)
Having bored / drilled projectiles for years, and my income depending on it I can personally guarentee with care taken
accuracy doesn't suffer sufficently to such an extent you won't topple what your aiming at.
One item that I feel might be interesting to the other users is a case report on mercury-induced skin granuloma's - specifically
because it mentions treatment of a GSW caused by a mercury-tipped bullet.
002b03l05 ;
Mots-cls espagnols / Spanish Keywords
Mercurio ; Metal pesado ; Va parenteral ; Va subcutnea ; Granuloma cuerpo extrao ; Piel ; Estudio caso ; Proyectil ;
Toxicidad ; Hombre ; Piel patologa ;
Localisation / Location
INIST-CNRS, Cote INIST : 14107 A, 35400004469830.0100
I hope that this was appropriate as a first post - I'm enjoying my time here, and learning a lot by keeping my mouth shut. :)
http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_XM109,,00.html
Granted, the max caliber that we in the states can own is .50 with exceptions of some of the old hunting cartridges (i.e., .600
Nitro Express). Perhaps a shotgun round? There are different methods of loading payloads in shotgun shells. Maybe with some
modification, one would be feasible.
The key would be keeping the projectile whole until initial impact. I do like the idea of mercury as anti-material and anti-
personnel rolled into one. The inertia would cause the little mercury blobs to blast through cover and flesh. However, I doubt it
would be much use against a harden target. Raufoss rounds are better for that. :D
Copper jackets are drawn from rolled copper. The draw process is already playing with the stresses in the copper. Adding
mercury to a jacket without some sort of buffer would also destroy the heterogeneity of the copper. This would likely increase
the chances of fragmentation in, or upon exit from, the barrel.
It would be difficult and not timely, to attempt to seal a copper jacket filled with mercury without any air remaining. That air will
cause ballistic problems in all three forms of Ballistics; Internal, External, and Terminal.
There would be jarring effects on the internal and external ballistics. The forceful movement of the air bubble would shift
weight. The gravitational effect on the mercury would, as someone stated earlier, keep it from spinning. This would, in turn,
slow down the spin of the round itself. The yaw angle of trajectory would sporadically increase or decrease.
The other idea that was brought up of a sort of internal honeycomb could have worse effects. The weight of the mercury
combined with it's liquid movement could likely speed up bullet rotation once leaving the bore, if this honeycomb is used.
This, combined with the loss of heterogeneity, and the marring on the bullet surface from the lands in the bore, would likely
give you some magnificent mid air explosion. At the very least - A tumble and completely unpredictable trajectory.
For more on the effects / ill effects of liquids used in this way, I would suggest reading up on Miles C. Miller and his tests at
Aberdeen Proving Ground. Particularly an exerpt titled 'Void Characteristics of a Liquid-Filled Cylinder Undergoing Spinning and
Coning Motion'.
From one hundred yards and closer, I would say you could do just about anything. Ballistics on even sub-sonic rounds are very
tolerant in that range. I suspect you could fire a stone with a spring and effectively hit a target at 100 yards. :p
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
I wish you happy experimenting.
In my opinion, you'd be better off spending your time practicing your marksmanship.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozambique_Drill
If you seek a hydraulic action type bullet it can be made much more simple by just filling a hollowpoint with silicone,grease,oil
or even water and sealing the bullet with J.B. weld...These do work and well.
As far as poison bullets their are many tested & proven designs ....a couple off the top of my head are the current use russian
dissolving bullet design that uses Aconitine,the WW2 german design and the early 1970s "last gasp" cyanide filled bullets
made by the velex exploding ammo team.Their are also the dissolving composite poison bullets made by F/X...etc.....
The russian bullet contains 25-30 mg Aconitine and was usually prepared at kamera Laboratory No. 12 from the roots of
Aconitium napellus, a flower plant known by such popular names as monkhood, friarscowl and wolfsbane.
The Germans in WWII also had similar bullets. The most simple german bullet contained a water-potassium cyanide solution
Here are some FX designs poison,delay explosive,ap.etc......My fav the ap delayed explosive poison combo prototype called
the "grim reaper" as a joke .It has the blue bullet.
http://aycu06.webshots.com/image/12765/2005206333823704002_fs.jpg
http://aycu33.webshots.com/image/11712/2004576033243211285_fs.jpg
interesting point! So the effective spin on the bullet would be very much slower than the speed of the jacket -
Not only that, but due to liquid drag the bullets would loose what spin they had faster than solid bullets. Like the old trick of
telling if an egg is raw or hard boiled by spinning it.
The russian round is made of a metal ??? composite that dissolves....I have NOT been able to nail down what it is made from
for sure.:confused: They are issued rounds and NOT a gimmick but any info is really a bitch to find.The FX rounds are
composites with a poison core made of a laser sealed glass vial....irradiated thallium has come up ???? Hard to find info once
again.
It is the same size as a unfired full size 9mm .It will feed and work in all standard 9mm firearms but its a rocket along the
lines of a gyrojet but better.It is AP/Explosive and uses driveing bands.THEY WORK !!!
Here is a page from the testimony.I have researched,etc.... these type rounds a lot and have a copy of the full testimony.
This shows how the russian/german rounnds were made that the germans tested on humans.The rounds worked and worked
well.:D
Their is lots of hollywood BS & other BS on poison rounds i.e. mercury,garlic,etc...This is one poison design that was tested and
worked and is easy to build.
http://aycu19.webshots.com/image/30018/2002077208117950149_fs.jpg
A polymer plug acts as a wedge to split apart a segmented lead bullet in a full-base copper hollow-point jacket, with the
payload contained in a central cavity. :)
Oh, an idea!
Suspend your poison of choice in a highly volatile (but inert) solvent, and use a syringe to inject it past the polymer ball into
the cavity below, then heat the round to just above the boiling point of the solvent, to drive it out of the bullet, leaving the
powdered poison inside. :)
+++++++
2 hours for who to die? The victims or the people who did the test after being convicted? NBK
+++++++
Ann- thanks for the graphic. This one goes into the files.
Also, you have to consider that a mercury-filled bullet is going to leave a gun barrel at a lower velocity, and probably also with
less energy, than a conventional lead core bullet. There is a good deal of evidence that the lighter bullets - such as those
composed entirely of polymer -- have much greater destructive power at close and medium ranges when compared to
conventional lead core bullets. At long ranges, the reduced ballistic coefficient of the plastic bullets makes them less energetic
than lead bullets, but this also helps make them less lethal toward far-away bystanders in urban areas.
In the scene where the Jackal is zeroing in the "rifle", he first uses regular ammo. Then, with the "rifle" zeroed in, switches to
an explosive round (given the difference in the way the target, a melon, reacts).
I'm wondering if the dialog from the book should be read as "mercury (fulminate) or (nitro)glycerin"?
And would ya really want to fire a homemade round filled with either mercury fulminate or nitroglycerin out of a super light,
super concealable, homemade "rifle"?
zarquan74 since you've seen the movie more recently that me, did either character specifically mention mercury fulminate?
If you're going to shoot someone it's probably best to just do it with a good caliber and fire until empty. The mercury doesn't
sound like it's worth the investment of time.
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > Softloads, downloads, mouse
sneezes, etc. - Quiet gunshots
Log in
View Full Version : Softloads, downloads, mouse sneezes, etc. - Quiet gunshots
Right, as said elsewhere, I use these in various calibres, 7.62x51, .357, .44 and .45-70, for various things.
The most complete data I have is for .44, using a nominal 0.435" soft lead bullet at 240gr. Wadding was spun nylon for pillow
stuffing. Temperature was a balmy 28 degrees C! Full sun, needless to say. TKO = Taylor Knockdown formula.
(If anyone can tell me why this huge whitespace appears, please let me know! Scroll down for data!)<TABLE WIDTH=350
BORDER=1 CELLPADDING=2 CELLSPACING=0>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>Wadding fill?</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13%>
<P ALIGN=CENTER>Grains Bullseye
</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12%>
<P ALIGN=CENTER>fps
</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12%>
<P ALIGN=CENTER>mps</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12%>
<P ALIGN=CENTER>ME (Joules)</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12%>
<P ALIGN=CENTER>ME (ft.lbs.)</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25%>
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
TKO</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>Full Wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="0.7" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>0.7</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="212" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>212</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="64.6176" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>64.62</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="32.4676304238165" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>32.47</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="23.946893677414" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>23.95</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="3.13" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
3.13</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>Full Wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="0.9" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>0.9</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="262" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>262</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="79.8576" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>79.86</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="49.5885551533566" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>49.59</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="36.5746388748755" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>36.57</P>
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="3.86" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
3.86</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>Full Wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="1.1" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1.1</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="251" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>251</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="76.5048" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>76.5</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="45.5120413031965" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>45.51</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="33.5679567588723" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>33.57</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="3.7" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
3.7</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>Full Wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="1.1" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1.1</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="242" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>242</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="73.7616" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>73.76</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="42.3067441291472" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>42.31</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="31.2038510440565" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>31.2</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="3.57" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
3.57</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>1/3 wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="1.3" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1.3</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="358" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>358</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="109.1184" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>109.12</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="92.585915486784" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>92.59</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="68.2878622568549" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>68.29</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="5.28" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
5.28</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>No wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="1.5" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1.5</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="418" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>418</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="127.4064" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>127.41</P>
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="126.220947360513" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>126.22</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="93.0957869992097" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>93.1</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="6.16" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
6.16</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>Full Wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="1.5" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1.5</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="320" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>320</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="97.536" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>97.54</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="73.9739532618105" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>73.97</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="54.5603843130828" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>54.56</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="4.72" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
4.72</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>No wad
</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="4.2" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>4.2</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="883" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>883</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="269.1384" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>269.14</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="563.24880512449" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>563.25</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="415.430971530109" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>415.43</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="13.02" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
13.02</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>No wad
</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="4.2" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>4.2</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="883" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>883</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="269.1384" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>269.14</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="563.24880512449" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>563.25</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="415.430971530109" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>415.43</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="13.02" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
13.02</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>No wad</P>
</TD>
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="5.2" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>5.2</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="1550" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1550</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="472.44" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>472.44</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="1735.57053429199" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1735.57</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="1280.09104797052" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1280.09</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="22.8514285714286" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
22.85</P>
</TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>
What was interesting about the smaller charges was the lack of noise. Without a moderator or anything, the sound levels were
very low. The action made as much noise, and there was no discomfort with no hearing protection. Yet they still went 200
yards, even the 0.7 grain round.
Right, as said elsewhere, I use these in various calibres, 7.62x51, .357, .44 and .45-70, for various things.
The most complete data I have is for .44, using a nominal 0.435" soft lead bullet at 240gr. Wadding was spun nylon for pillow
stuffing. Temperature was a balmy 28 degrees C! Full sun, needless to say. TKO = Taylor Knockdown formula.
(If anyone can tell me why this huge whitespace appears, please let me know! Scroll down for data!)<TABLE WIDTH=350
BORDER=1 CELLPADDING=2 CELLSPACING=0>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>Wadding fill?</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13%>
<P ALIGN=CENTER>Grains Bullseye
</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12%>
<P ALIGN=CENTER>fps
</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12%>
<P ALIGN=CENTER>mps</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12%>
<P ALIGN=CENTER>ME (Joules)</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12%>
<P ALIGN=CENTER>ME (ft.lbs.)</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25%>
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
TKO</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>Full Wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="0.7" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>0.7</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="212" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>212</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="64.6176" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>64.62</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="32.4676304238165" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>32.47</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="23.946893677414" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>23.95</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="3.13" SDNUM="2057;">
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
3.13</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>Full Wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="0.9" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>0.9</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="262" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>262</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="79.8576" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>79.86</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="49.5885551533566" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>49.59</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="36.5746388748755" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>36.57</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="3.86" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
3.86</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>Full Wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="1.1" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1.1</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="251" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>251</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="76.5048" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>76.5</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="45.5120413031965" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>45.51</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="33.5679567588723" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>33.57</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="3.7" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
3.7</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>Full Wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="1.1" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1.1</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="242" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>242</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="73.7616" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>73.76</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="42.3067441291472" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>42.31</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="31.2038510440565" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>31.2</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="3.57" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
3.57</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>1/3 wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="1.3" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1.3</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="358" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>358</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="109.1184" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>109.12</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="92.585915486784" SDNUM="2057;">
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
<P ALIGN=CENTER>92.59</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="68.2878622568549" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>68.29</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="5.28" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
5.28</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>No wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="1.5" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1.5</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="418" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>418</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="127.4064" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>127.41</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="126.220947360513" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>126.22</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="93.0957869992097" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>93.1</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="6.16" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
6.16</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>Full Wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="1.5" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1.5</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="320" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>320</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="97.536" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>97.54</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="73.9739532618105" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>73.97</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="54.5603843130828" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>54.56</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="4.72" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
4.72</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>No wad
</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="4.2" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>4.2</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="883" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>883</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="269.1384" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>269.14</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="563.24880512449" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>563.25</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="415.430971530109" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>415.43</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="13.02" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
13.02</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>No wad
</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="4.2" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>4.2</P>
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="883" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>883</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="269.1384" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>269.14</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="563.24880512449" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>563.25</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="415.430971530109" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>415.43</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="13.02" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
13.02</P>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=14% HEIGHT=10>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>No wad</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=13% SDVAL="5.2" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>5.2</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="1550" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1550</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="472.44" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>472.44</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="1735.57053429199" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1735.57</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=12% SDVAL="1280.09104797052" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>1280.09</P>
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=25% SDVAL="22.8514285714286" SDNUM="2057;">
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
22.85</P>
</TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>
What was interesting about the smaller charges was the lack of noise. Without a moderator or anything, the sound levels were
very low. The action made as much noise, and there was no discomfort with no hearing protection. Yet they still went 200
yards, even the 0.7 grain round.
Having plotted the data onto a graph, I see two different lines that head back towards zero charge.
Tracking back from the charge at each interval, I can see that the wadding takes up a small amount of power from the
powder, equivalent to about .2 grains. The primer itself acts like a charge of about 0.9 grains of RedDot.
Primer power alone, should, in theory, fire these bullets at 100fps with a wad, and 160fps without.
However, trying this with a .357 (using magnum brass), it was found that even with a short barrelled carbine, the lead slug
stopped about 2 inches from the end of the barrel. Fired from a revolver, however, this could be quite a fun round for the
garden!
If anyone has .38 brass, they might like to try this, and report the results.
Having plotted the data onto a graph, I see two different lines that head back towards zero charge.
Tracking back from the charge at each interval, I can see that the wadding takes up a small amount of power from the
powder, equivalent to about .2 grains. The primer itself acts like a charge of about 0.9 grains of RedDot.
Primer power alone, should, in theory, fire these bullets at 100fps with a wad, and 160fps without.
However, trying this with a .357 (using magnum brass), it was found that even with a short barrelled carbine, the lead slug
stopped about 2 inches from the end of the barrel. Fired from a revolver, however, this could be quite a fun round for the
garden!
If anyone has .38 brass, they might like to try this, and report the results.
BTW, The probable reason for the "white space" is that you have pressed 'enter' while creating the HTML for the table, every
new line in your table stuck a blank one above it.
BTW, The probable reason for the "white space" is that you have pressed 'enter' while creating the HTML for the table, every
new line in your table stuck a blank one above it.
I think what happens is the wadding simply absorbs some of the heat. One thing I should mention is that you might find your
wadding! I found one rather sticky half melted blob of nylon that hadn't even made it fully out of the case!
Of course, with such low powered rounds, you are never going to get a problem if the bullet gets jammed, but, be careful! If
that nylon cooled and set, it might form a plug, giving weird results.
You could use oatmeal, paper, or whatever, for your filler by the way.
As for the whitespace, it shouldn't render that anywhere... It seems the the board software insisted on inserting < br> tags all
the way through, one for each line of the table. Next time I shall enter it all as one line, and see if that solves the problem.
I think what happens is the wadding simply absorbs some of the heat. One thing I should mention is that you might find your
wadding! I found one rather sticky half melted blob of nylon that hadn't even made it fully out of the case!
Of course, with such low powered rounds, you are never going to get a problem if the bullet gets jammed, but, be careful! If
that nylon cooled and set, it might form a plug, giving weird results.
You could use oatmeal, paper, or whatever, for your filler by the way.
As for the whitespace, it shouldn't render that anywhere... It seems the the board software insisted on inserting < br> tags all
the way through, one for each line of the table. Next time I shall enter it all as one line, and see if that solves the problem.
You have to aim up a bit to get 200 yards with the lower power ones, but that's life, I'm afraid.
You have to aim up a bit to get 200 yards with the lower power ones, but that's life, I'm afraid.
As for the info, how does the nylon wadding hold up? If it melts in the cartridge case, surely it must coat the bore in an
annoying plastic mess (i.e. melting onto the bore and re-solidifying)?
Though, of course, actual testing and posting of results is always much better than external links. :)
Though, of course, actual testing and posting of results is always much better than external links. :)
I've not had any issues with it sticking in the bore. If you let it cool right down, I think it might be a problem, but most of it
got spat out the muzzle. Only once was it still hanging onto the end of the case, so I thought I would mention it for
completeness. Like I say, though, you can use pretty much anything. I've seen people use porridge (!) and hole punch
cuttings.
NBK, I only found a few half-mentions in four results, plus this one by myself. Do you get some kind of power admin search? I
know there are a few pages online about it, but some are quite demented ramblings, and all are short on real velocities or
sound levels.
You probably all want to know a bit more, though? Well, with a .44 firing, I sent the 1.5 grain shot 200 yards without trouble. I
then aimed higher and higher for each later shot with reduced powder, and even the 0.7 grain shot went 200 yards, and went
through the target sideways. I was aiming quite high for that one, but it would have been on a torso at that range, so pretty
good for something about as loud as a moderated air rifle!
Seriously, try these out. The loudest thing is the hammer falling, followed by the shot hitting the target.
I've not had any issues with it sticking in the bore. If you let it cool right down, I think it might be a problem, but most of it
got spat out the muzzle. Only once was it still hanging onto the end of the case, so I thought I would mention it for
completeness. Like I say, though, you can use pretty much anything. I've seen people use porridge (!) and hole punch
cuttings.
NBK, I only found a few half-mentions in four results, plus this one by myself. Do you get some kind of power admin search? I
know there are a few pages online about it, but some are quite demented ramblings, and all are short on real velocities or
sound levels.
You probably all want to know a bit more, though? Well, with a .44 firing, I sent the 1.5 grain shot 200 yards without trouble. I
then aimed higher and higher for each later shot with reduced powder, and even the 0.7 grain shot went 200 yards, and went
through the target sideways. I was aiming quite high for that one, but it would have been on a torso at that range, so pretty
good for something about as loud as a moderated air rifle!
Seriously, try these out. The loudest thing is the hammer falling, followed by the shot hitting the target.
bigbadgrinch
Hola
Hey bro I am interested in making my own ammo but I am very very uninformed about it. I was motivated after reading your
post regarding the .44 mag loads. Any results on the penetration? I'd like to make them myself to test out in my backyard
seeing as I live in a very rural setting. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction? Thanks for your time.
I replied:
Hi.
You can ask things like that in the thread, since then everyone will see the answers.
Penetration is low. The big heavy bullets are slow and round, and not even stable sometimes. They tend to bounce off things,
but that's not bad, since this doubles the knockdown power c.f. stopping dead, which in turn is way more than a slow
penetration.
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
I had them bounce off anything that was flexible enough, so take care, and stand off axis.
10.2gn of ADI AR2205 pushing a 110gn projectile. Add a thread and tube to your muzzle and giddy up.
Its not the loudest auto around anyway but this is tops.
I tried a mini-30 chambered in .300 whisper and it got my mind ticking about the old m1 carbine.
great thread
As a note, the mouse loads would be great for a home-made weapon, if the required pressure bearing tube was unavailable.
Press to the back of the head and pull the trigger. No problems with body armour.
As a note, the mouse loads would be great for a home-made weapon, if the required pressure bearing tube was unavailable.
Press to the back of the head and pull the trigger. No problems with body armour.
yeah I took this load as close to the sound barrier as I could. At the time I did this it was quite legal to have a suppressor in
Australia and I had my own lathe to make it and thread the M1 carbine. Super sonic crack, muzzle blast and mechanical
noises make mouse loads great ideas in lever actions, bolt actions and other no-automatic rifles.
I also remeber that some brands of sub-sonic ammunition wouldn't function reliably in blow back operated .22lr rifles, it was
as noisy as a bolt action using target ammo. I did try a padded case catcher, silencer and reduced bolt weight to get a 10 / 22
ruger to work quiet and handy for a rabbit shooter who I worked with periodicly.
case catcher was to stop noise from ejection port more then anything
decided to take weight out of bolt as apposed to lightening the return spring to ensure that if had suffient force to chamber a
round
I take it mouse loads won't get an auto to work reliably without huge modifications?
Anything that took some of the power out of that would stop it exiting the barrel, plus the light charge would not generate
anything like enough gas for a modern gas-blowback to work. A recoil operated system, likewise, would not work. I doubt it
would recoil the bolt at all, since the recoil is about the same as a slingshot or .22, but with a .44 or .45 bullet.
I'm going to keep diggin on this one, I think I have found my new hobby!~
Working up a load is easy. For example: .44 with a 160gr bullet, in a magnum case, I started at 4 grains of powder, then
loaded one with 3, 2, 1. I then tested those. The 4 grain ones were pretty soft on the shoulder, and went fast down the range.
The smaller charges, obviously, less so. I fired the 1 grain powder charge, and found it still came out. This told me that the
next step was to load a few more, 1gr, 0.9gr, etc. Looking back at the table, I covered 1.5gr down to 0.7gr in 0.2 grain steps.
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
I was amazed when the 0.7 grain shot fired, and still thumped into the target. It was, to be sure, 4" low at 25 yards, but it was
still on the paper!
The very fast burn means that there is no flash. Primer power alone doesn't clear the muzzle, btw, not in my rifle. It requires a
little power. In a pistol it would be different.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > A m m unitio n a n d R e l o a d i n g > Arm or piercing bullets?
Log in
View Full Version : Armor piercing bullets?
http://www.packing.org/oldnews/article/?article=6005
Just exactly how are these 'arm or piercing' bullets? From the pro vided link, doesn 't sound any m ore penetrating tha n any
regular hot-load to m e.
Though it's not a wea pon for the faint of heart. It's big, heavy, loud, shoots a foot of flam e out the barrel, has an energetic
m uzzle jump and is only an 8 rounder. But it costs less than $150.00 in excellent condition and 12 00 rounds of am m o is under
$ 1 3 0 . 0 0 S l a p t h a t i n a g a n g b a n g e r s h a n d a n d i f h e s h o ots it sid eways he's likely to knock himself out with it when he catches
it in his teeth. Dam n thing is a hoot to shoot at night th ough. :e ek: It takes a little getting use to but after awhile you can p ut
all 8 in a mans chest at 25 yards.
I have seen tests with this round on a 3/4-inch ballistic polycarbonate plate, but so what m ost standard ball rounds will do the
s a m e.
He is right.
Hollow points are the exact opposite of what yo ur wanting to do, penetrate armor. The bullet tip is hollow in the center so when
it hits it will form a mushroom shape a n d s p r e a d a n d h a v e m ore surface area.
W hat you are wanting is ballistic tipped am m unition. Ho wever they don't m ake it for ACP rounds.
It's m ainly used for h igh caliber rifles (sniper rifles mainly, .308 and beyond).
Rifle and pistol round s are usually built around a penetrator of steel or tungsten. Aircraft and tank rounds sometim e s u s e a
core of depleted uran ium . This penetrator is a pointed m ass of high-density material that is designed to re t a i n i t s s h a p e a n d
carry the maximum p o s s i b l e a m o u n t o f e n e r g y a s d e e p as possible into the target. Depleted-uranium penetrators have the
a d v a n t a g e o f b e i n g p yrophoric and self-sharpening on im pact, resulting in incredible heat and energy focused on a minim al
area of the target's arm or. Som e rounds also use explosive or incendiary tips to aid in the penetration of thicker arm or.
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
Rifle armor-piercing amm unition generally carries its hardened penetrato r within a copper or cupro-nickel jacket, sim ilar to the
jacket that would surround lea d in a co nvention al projectile. Upon im pact on a hard target, the copper case is destroyed, but
the penetrator continues its m otion and penetrates the substance. Sim ilar armor-piercing am m unition for p i s t o l s h a s a l s o b e e n
d e v e l o p e d . I t i s o f s i m ilar design to the rifle amm o a b o ve.
The entire projectile is not normally m a d e o f t h e s a m e m aterial as the penetrator because the physical cha racteristics that
m a k e a g o o d p e n e t r a t o r ( t o u g h , h a r d m etal) m a k e t h e m a t e r i a l e q u a l l y h a r m ful to the barrel of the gun firing the round.
Contrary to com m on belief, te flon or other coatings on the bullet do not in themselves help it penetrate deeper. Teflon-coated
bullets were m eant to help reduce the wear on the barrel as a re sult of firing hard ened projectiles. Teflon coating was a trend
that has largely faded, in part because of laws resulting from this miscon ception.
The legality of AP pistol amm o p u z z l e s m e . . . s o m e t i m es I hear AP rounds (for the pistol) are illegal, yet som e t i m e s o n
gunbroker, you see AP rounds for sale. For instance: http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem . a s p ? I t e m = 8 3 3 9 9 1 4 4
I m ight be getting confused with m anufacturers policies however (selling only to LE or licensed dealers; not the law, just their
policy). O bviously the y are hard to obtain (pistol AP in general), but if som eone could clarify this, that would be nice . Sorry if I
a m getting o ff the subject.
Though it's not a wea pon for the faint of heart. It's big, heavy, loud, shoots a foot of flam e out the barrel, has an energetic
m uzzle jump and is only an 8 rounder. But it costs less than $150.00 in excellent condition and 12 00 rounds of am m o is under
$ 1 3 0 . 0 0 S l a p t h a t i n a g a n g b a n g e r s h a n d a n d i f h e s h o ots it sid eways he's likely to knock himself out with it when he catches
it in his teeth. Dam n thing is a hoot to shoot at night th ough. :e ek: It takes a little getting use to but after awhile you can p ut
all 8 in a mans chest at 25 yards.
Hate to revive a rather old post but I love my CZ-52. I got it from a neighbor for 30 bucks. I was rather happy when he said
that I could have it for 30. Originally it was supposed to be 90 and paid off 30 a m onth. After the first month he just shrugged
and said, "You'll get m ore use out of it than me. 30 will do."
The small size of the round belies its potent power. I am also rather imp ressed b y its ergonom ics. Especially considering that
the grip appears to be cumbersome, it really is not as long as you don't have carnie-folk hands.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > A m m unitio n a n d R e l o a d i n g > The powder in BlankGun Amm o ? ?
Log in
View Full Version : The powder in BlankGun Ammo??
W hat country are you in? A look at what the law says ab out blanks might tell you as m uch as we can.
Acco rding to a gunshop owner the powder is nitrocellulose. SBSP or the green DBSP. He told m e it varies brand to brand.
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > Smallest exploding ammunation
Log in
View Full Version : Smallest exploding ammunation
Than load them into the barrel but not in the right position, put them with the "ass" at the point...
I have a CO2 revolver S&W from Umarex....I shot on a little "Plechdose" (a little metall container, there were diabolos in this box)
there were a big hole in it (7 mm) , and some tiny Pb particles were shot out of the other side (between one side to the other side were ~ 1cm air
*shit*....I hope i can learn better english when I read the whole time old threads of this forum ^^
On the matter of english, you've already learned "shit" and "ass"... you're doing well! hehe... Honestly, though, speak it exclusively to everyone you know who can also speak
it fluently and read as much as you can in english (on a daily basis if possible) and you'll have it down in no time at all...
I have to say that my barrel of the revolver is " just" 25cm long....
if you use a gun with a long barrel the diabolo may be heated up and explodes...but i think there is no damage to the barrell because its a realy small amount...
its just funny to shot around at street lamps 30 m away and there its going bang... =)
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/3492/zweiterschuss9eb.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/2009/splitterlchervomzweitenschuss6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8247/zweiterschussmitdia6mi.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/842/splitterstcke2mp.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
new target:
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/6342/ersterschuss23iq.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5029/ersterschuss3td.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/9224/ersterschusseinschusswand4cf.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://www.christian-chmielorz.de/bilder/Umarex/CO2/586-9.jpg
Viper, if you look more closely at what I had posted earlier you'd have gotten that I was refering to a problem you may have WHILE attempting to SHOOT these rounds, not
while loading them into the revolver cylinder. When you load them cavity first you may experience a jam after you pull the trigger and the pellet is still within the bore of the
barrel. Looking at the projectile you are shooting from your gun in the 3rd picture you posted, though, it seems of a pretty solid construction and this may take over a thousand
shots to ever occur. I was thinking of those hourglass types of pellets which will cause problems much quicker than the drum-type you are shooting due to their less solid center
of mass reinforcement. You're not immune to a jam, by any means, but it may take much longer to have one jam on you.
A better point is the accuracy of your loading. You now have more weight at the rear of the projectile as it exits the barrel and it will inevitably tumble in mid-air to correct this.
Doubtful you'll notice any difference since it's not the most accurate of guns to begin with, but it is a valid point all the same.
Now, why don't you show with your camera some regular pellet hits versus the hmtd rounds so we can see what markable difference there is to the damage to the target? I'm
guessing that you will be more surprised than I to find there is not too much at all.
I have to give you credit for taking a good picture, though. I was able to pull a complete fingerprint right off the 5th picture. Running it through the global database now... ;)
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
Viper III January 20th, 2006, 09:28 AM
" I was able to pull a complete fingerprint right off the 5th picture. Running it through the global database now... "
If I find a empty pellet tin I`ll try it soon, but I think ther is just a hole of the diameter of the pellet and no Pb particles exits on the other side
I dont pretend to speak for anyone, but some of your posts look a little.... dubious at best. I know being told to use the search function can get annoying, but you might want
to consider it.
No offence intended, I could be completely running away with the idea but yeah, it might warrent some thinking.
That should be good for something when the Bush/Blair NWO formally declares itself. ;-)
New World Order... It's happening right before our very eyes...
But I am sure , I am not registered at the police or somewhere else with my fingerprints ;).........I am not a terrorist ; ) lol
Moreover I live on an other continent than you, an I think the amerikan FBI CIA..., doesn`t worry about an little boy hunderts of km away who shoots with a airgun against
pellet tins.
Than load them into the barrel but not in the right position, put them with the "ass" at the point...
I have a CO2 revolver S&W from Umarex....I shot on a little "Plechdose" (a little metall container, there were diabolos in this box)
there were a big hole in it (7 mm) , and some tiny Pb particles were shot out of the other side (between one side to the other side were ~ 1cm air
*shit*....I hope i can learn better english when I read the whole time old threads of this forum ^^
This is nothing new, I wrote a thread about doing this a very long time ago.
But I did it a bit different, I sealed the ammo in the back with solder, then drilled a hole in the front, filling the diabolo with HMTD and then sealing it with a drop of superglue.
hmm..
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > Ammunition in Australia
Log in
View Full Version : Ammunition in Australia
What are the legal requirements to buy handgun and rifle ammunition in Australia?
Cheers
From w hat I can tell you legally need a liscense but thats often overlooked, so I guess if you are confident and don't stand out like a sore thumb you have a chance.
Just like buying exotic lab chemicals, act like you know what the fuck you are doing and saying, if you get into trouble don't say anything stupid and gtfo :)
Loaded cartridges.
Air pellets. (YES FOR REAL IT DOES INCLUDE THESE. I CANT SELL THEM TO ANYONE WITHOUT A LICENCE)
Powders.
Primers.
If one asks for pellets or cartridges in any gun shop one will be asked for a licence w hich enables the person to own a gun that fires the relevant ammunition. As w as already
stated in a previous post, a licence for an A class gun allow s one to buy only ammo that an A class gun fires etc.
Classes are as follows. (only A and B are easy to get, H is harder, C is rare and D VERY rare.)
A: Rim-fire .22 rifles (not self loading); Single and double barrel shotguns; Air-rifles
B: Centre-fire rifles (not self loading); muzzle loading rifles; combination guns; anything not included in other categories.
C: Pump action and self-loading shotguns with up to 5 round magazines; self-loading rim-fire .22 rifles with up to 10 round magazine.
D: Self-loading centre-fire rifles; pump action and self-loading shotgunt greater than 5 round magazine; rim-fire .22 rifles greater than 10 round magazine.
H: handguns.
Prescribed weapons: machine guns, select fire weapons, saw n off and home made guns, disguised firearms. More.
Nobody is allowed a prescribed gun :( many tears
For a stupid reason .177 rim-fire is class B. The stupid reason is that it isn't .22 rim-fire as the legislation says. :(
Legislation is similar but not identical state to state. It was publicised by the government that the new laws w ould be national in 1996, but that was not true. For instance, a
Victorian can buy a gun in South Australia but a South Australian cannot buy a gun in Victoria.
The only loophole is that nearly no gun shop checks for a licence for powder and primers although strictly they should. If one can buy those without problem then it means one
can then use them to assemble one's own cartridges with one's own brass and projectiles which are legal to buy without a licence. The press, dies and other accessories for
loading are unregulated.
A cheap set of reloading gear costs $225 plus dies $50 plus shell-holder $15. You should be able to get the equipment for $300 if you only buy crap like Lee parts. RCBS, Lyman,
etc will cost more because it's good.
If you are intending to buy powder, know what type you want, because then you will be served. If you don't know what powder you need you will seem suspicious then you
may be asked for a licence. DON'T load ammo w ith the w rong powder, it IS dangerous if you don't read a reloading book first.
Don't ask for large rifle primers and AS-30N powder, you will get a very strange look from the staff.
I think blanks are not counted as ammo, I read the local firearms act and it doesnt mention blanks in the description of ammunition, so I believe them fine. Certainly I'd expect
them to be fine, but a shopkeeper may ask, w hat theyre being used for if you order in .308 or .223 blanks. Not many people ask for them. At the shopkeeper's discresion they
may ask for a licence even is not required to.
As for easy to get, I doubt it. I doubt that ADI, which I assume makes the blanks the army uses for training, sells them much to retailers. Raytrade is the distributer for other ADI
products so one could call them and ask. (03) 9706 5936
ADI Makes the F3 blank in 5.56 but I dont know if they make a .308 blank.
http://ww w.adi-limited.com/site.asp?page=190
ADI Makes the F3 blank in 5.56 but I dont know if they make a .308 blank.
http://ww w.adi-limited.com/site.asp?page=190
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
Was just curious about the .308 and/or 30-06 for use as a low powered, low cost .44 Auto-Mag knock-off for improvised firearms in restricted areas.
Backing up what lucas said I can attest that this doesn't w ork, my dad w ho is a middle age man and doesn't look like a dodgy teenager went into a local store and calmly asked
for some .177 pellets, the lady got them out then asked him for his license, which was a bit of an aw kward situation :p
And to think that the sheeple out there think they are safer w ith these shitty law s :(
I am astounded how the people gave up their firearms when the school shooting tragedy occurred some dozen years back or so. Many people spoke out but the laws w ere
rammed through and now Australia is close to the UK in strict gun laws. Once a law is enacted it's very difficult to dismantle it. That's why the USA has limits ("Sunsets") on
certain legislation.
In truth, has it made the country safer? I noticed that when that crazy with a sword was in the news, some Australians rallied for law s against swords and in Scotland, they
actually have "knife laws" instituted in the last few years to cope with street crime. Scotland certainly has no less street violence.
Even if you did get the slide to cycle properly, I would think that after just a few BP rounds that you would start to see problems with fouling of the moving parts from the BP
residue?? :(:( Wouldn't w ant to use unless as a last ditch effort and then thoroughly clean afterwards.
Most rifle/pistol ranges reload their own ammo for sale, so being caught taking shells would be frowned apon! Do it discreetly!
Chemicals Required:
After reading the linked post it seems that this mixture does not produce enough gas to be an effective propellant for re-loading(Not that under certain circumstances it couldn't
be used, just not as effective as normal sulfer based BP)
Of course it's ease of ignition and low pressure would make it suitable for improvied zip/pipe guns that are constructed of questionable materials.
http://cncguns.com/
edit:
Ammunition casings (brass) can easily be purchased through eBay, as it is inert, non explosive, and shouldn't upset the "too much time on their hands" eBay police.
Most rifle/pistol ranges reload their own ammo for sale, so being caught taking shells would be frowned apon! Do it discreetly!
Also I vaguely remember the range master telling me it is illegal to possess centerfire cartridges without a license, they don't however, mind you taking the .22 rimfire.
Owning or having in possesion "brass" or expired ammunition is not illegal, and carries no offence. It is plain old brass afterall!
Same goes with ow ning a rifle/pistol barrel... nothing illegal there, less dangerous than a baseball bat!
Sure, if the pigs w ere to find a barrel or spent shells in your possession they'd suspect some kind of w rong doings... but legally, they couldn't do jackshit!
It w as because they didn't have to register their rifles in NSW that they could bury them and get away with it during the buy-back.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > A m m unitio n a n d R e l o a d i n g > R ifled Bullet
Log in
View Full Version : Rifled Bullet
I rem e m b e r e d s e e i n g a p a t e n t o n r i f l e d bullets a couple of months ago, but I couldn't find it today. I wonder if anybody has
ever tried this before because this could be very useful with an im provise d sm ooth barrel gun ;)
I've tried searching google for rifled bullets and the patent, but it seems to find "rifle bullets" a better match...
I've searched this forum and couldn't find anything on it too, so I thought, let's m ake a new topic about it.
A rifled slug does indeed spin. But it spins gently (if loaded in such a ma nner - but that the only way rotation will be achieved).
That is, it does not retain an energetic rotation. Slight a lternative stimulus (like leaves or twigs) can upset the rotation or stifle
it. W hat's m o r e t h e s p i n i s d e p e n d e n t u p o n l o a d i n g e l e m ents and powder levels. It will loose it's spin in flight after approx.
120yrds in m ost cases. The best spin is achieved by DO WNLOADING a slug cartridge. High pressure loads offer LESS spin. The
best accuracy is achie ved with either extrem e s o f l o a d l e v e l s .
The lead vortex fins on the slug will only grip & spin if the slug is not ove r-powere d. But th at does not m ean that a fast hard
driven slug that is a "sm oothbore special" (m usket type load) cannot be accurate within 100yds.
A gentle load of a fast burning powder or a heavy load of slow burning powder (blue dot). In the la ter case, the slug does not
spin that much but flies very flat. (see Rem ington Arms Corp 1998 publication "Slug-gun Barrel Development for the 21st
Century").
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > .22 Rimfire "Different" Ammo?
Log in
View Full Version : .22 Rimfire "Different" Ammo?
I've seen the tear and pepper gas cartridges you can buy from certain places, which are really just blanks filled with an irritant. There are also the ones filled with flash powder
that serve to create a brilliant white flash.
My question is, apart from these and the obvious way of using a blank to propel a lead bullet, are there any other special loads that would serve to be a last ditch device?
Shooting .22 air rifle pellets out a .22 rim-fire barrel works. I have shot them using normal .22lr cartridges with the bullet removed. I inserted the pellet, then the case of
powder and fired as normal. They work. Buying the heaviest pellets would be best to get at least a little bit of penetration on impact. At 20 or so grains they are still half the
weight of a normal .22 bullet at 40 grains.
Mr Science - Can you read post edits or did you see my post before I edited it?
I'm aware of using a blank behind a .22 bullet and this is most definitely possible here.
What is the "caseless" ammo? I've seen charges and bullets wrapped in thick paper before, but I would have thought that it would be very difficult with .22LR due to the rim?
??? I said "I have a tube of "caseless" .22cal Ammo.", not I have a "caseless" tube. Please make sure to read the post correctly before trying to correct someone.
but I would have thought that even if you could make them in .22LR, the rim would be extremly fragile to say the least.
What rim? These are basically a .22LR bullet with a tapered, powder filled, paper body. Looks kind-a-sorta like a minature short, stumpy .54 Burnside round . I was told back in
1977 that these were an experimental ammo being developed by Daisy (yes, of BB gun fame).
I only mentioned these rounds in response to the comment on Exotic .22lr ammo, was not trying to insinuate that they would be appropriate for your needs or that the round
was a .22LR round.
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > Hypothetically how can someone
with limited tools make ammunition from scratch?
Log in
View Full Version : Hypothetically how can someone with limited tools make ammunition from
scratch?
Now I have a mini-lathe with reasonably adequate tools and moderate skill. I have some experience in casting and making
green sand molds and plaster and good knowledge on pyrotechnics as I have many friends in the business. As well I am
studying Maths, chemistry, Physics and D&T with a B grade predicted.
Setting the standard I am going to ask how to make .45ACP rounds but really it just the process I am interested in rather than
any particular type but if we say suitable for the 1911 it probably gives people an idea of what I mean.
What I want to know is with the knowledge and resources available to me would it be possible to make said items and also
how it would be done quickly and cheaply. I want to know how to make the lot case, primer, bullet and propellant so all
information is good
I would like to emphasize this now I have no intention of making said rounds as I have seen what can happen when messing
around with just cardboard tubes and pyrotechnic powders and subbing the card for metal sort of puts me off...
I had an idea for bullet molds. Since you are pouring only low MP metals ie lead could you not use plaster of parris as a mold.
Forming such molds would be easy and cheap and hard wearing. Simply turning a bullet on lathe would act as the mold for the
mold and then you put aluminum plate 1/2 of the diameter of your bullet with a hole cut out in the profile of the bullet and
the pour plaster parris on. and then add a release agent like Vaseline as you make up the other side removing the ali plate
and sprues (dowel rod) and pour plaster on the other side then side and then before prying apart drill locating holes.
Molds would need fully drying in an oven before use each time but would be also then pre-heated.
Plaster of parris gives a smooth finish and dries quickly so is a good choice give me feedback please on thoughts.
First of all you will learn nothing of use from the math, chemistry, and physics they teach in school, particularly at the high
school level (or whatever they call it in the UK). The information you seek is definitely not on any curriculum.
Your first bet would be to obtain expended shells and try to make them into bullets again. Reloaded bullets can be
dangerous, but you are talking about a suituation with no alternative.
The primer and propellant is probably the easiest to make. With the right machine tools the casings could be manufactured.
You won't learn any machining skills from math and physics either...
I believe the French resistance made their own ammo during WWII. They hid away machining equipment in basements. Bullet
cartridges have been around for nearly 150 years, if they could make them then, they can surely be made now.
I look forward to any suggestion and am keen t become a contributing member of this community,
No-one
I agree with Mega and would add that with this proliferation it may be VERY possible to get some of the useful items with little
or no notice to your island nation.
Your Nannys are looking for completed materials. What's more they many not know what an item actually does. There are
sources for tools that a customs inspector might be baffled by.
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
Obtain a quality book on hand-loading ammo written in America and study it. It will give you the leg up you'd need to compile
the hard to find materials that you could not make. What's more those books often have sources in which you could use to
further your little factory. There are many pulp magazines with which sales of components (to anywhere) would be easily
accomplished (Gun List, ShotGun News).
I have had actually now had experience of mixing primer and propellants due to a fully licensed pyrotechnic mate of mine
from common ingredients... (Would chemicals be better?? after all we are not making a cake here) based on the homemade
ammo guide on the FTP and various other explosive recipes known between us (the licensing was too expensive for me (as I
would need better insurance too) so I basically abuse hers ;) ). So this area I have down.
What I am looking to do is to write a e-book for the FTP in order for people like me to maybe have some fun without drawing
too much attention to ourselves or spending a fortune on setup costs... (or my personal reasons are that should I need it I
know how to make it quickly and with ease.)
One expensive option is buying inert ammo and going from there... but large quantities are hard to get and very expensive.
I have had considerable experience in casting making most of the parts for the gingery lathe for a friend (I have a mini-lathe
which suits me fine (at the moment)) and also experience in making the parts for various bill holmes books (but have never
assembled the parts before destroying them) and replacing them with castings rather than weldings where possible.
My lathe skills are much yet to be desired and I have not finished my CNC router nor is this an Item commonly available to
people yet my lathe skills hopefully will increase when do some work experience at a local metal engineer shop over the
summer which was the way I learned C coding...
I would prefer methods involving aluminum or copper as I seem to have an abundance of the stuff and is easy for people in
the UK (and probably other places) to get hold off... but brass and lead our not out of the question...
I hope this gives enough information and I look forward to hearing from you and in the not to distant future hopefully
contributing to the forum rather just sharing your knowledge,
Kind regards,
No-one
Homemade guns and homemade ammo Ronald B Brown (info on propellants and primers)
Philip Luty Expedient home made ammo (Homemade tools and shells and alternative priming methods.)
A video is available on reloading at the pirate bay that may also be helpful.
http://thepiratebay.org/tor/4070876/Competition_Reloading_with_Brian_Enos
Good luck
Of this how much is fabricated evidence (which does happen) I don't know but living close to Ravensthorpe, I have not known
of past raids and most likely he was a serious terror threat...
I myself can still easily buy all required things to make blasting caps and plastic explosive and not raise any suspicion and
seriously doubt I would get arrested for having cases consindering the amount of inert ammo lying around...
I myself (like I am sure many of you do) have a copy of the anarchist cookbook (the book in question) but a car can be used
for a car bombing (an instrument of terror) but until that point it it is just a car. I guess it was the accumulation of all the other
stuff with probably led to his subsequent arrest. That being said the anarchist cookbook is quite outdated with little on
detonating the acclaimed recipe he was making "How to Make a Plastic Explosive" which I believe is the 3rd or 4th article in
(been about 4 years since I looked at that last ;-) )...
I am still having difficulty on finding information on manufacturing cases but I may try reverse engineer some inert ammo to
cast some cases out of aluminum using the reverse engineered round as a mold to make some plaster of Paris molds.... any
info on cases full stop (how they are made in industry (video and good illustrated articles)) would be of great help.
Also if anyone has any info on jacketed rounds would be kindly appreciated...
Also where could I look at getting resizers and presses from... not critical as thanks to mike-hunt (nice name btw I teased with
idea of Issac-hunt) suggestions of books but they look a bit slow and would like to see if I can improvise a design which would
slightly faster but easy to still make.
No-one
With expended casing you have the hardest things to make available: the casing itself & the primer cup. Even if it's a Berdan
primer design you could still make them function. You have two basic primer designs: Boxer & Berdan. The Boxer primer uses
a self contained unit with it's own anvil to initiate the round. The Berdan unit works with the casing to provide the anvil/flash
hole as a unit. What is needed is a method to rid the used primer of the burnt material. Any simple technique would suffice.
Re-filling the primer with a chlorate composition would work as flash is the goal not detonation per se'. The chore would be how
to deal with the dented primer cup. If all you had to work with was a bear minimum of reloading materials it would be a
challenge but it could be done. Giving enough time the primer could be reshaped. We are actually talking about a half hour's
worth of effort to manufacture one round; but with pyrotechnic materials and some form of propellant, you would achieve
success. In fact if you were to examine used primers that are pulled from expended rounds by a "de-priming tool" you'd see
that the dent had been reversed. The anvil would have to be replaced after reloading the primer with composition to insure
impact against the chlorate + whatever primer composition.
However, if you had absolutely nothing to work with then the idea would be to make the casing & primer in one. Very small-
scale lathe work on this level is common place. You simply form a case with a thickened web area and a completed face that
has no primer hole but rather a very thin surface in which the firing pin would dent the metal, impacting sensitive chlorate-
composition. Such a thing would be a casing former of varying widths of metal to allow for firing pin impact to the bottom of
the case wherein a primer base composition would be placed.
This whole topic is very opinionated but I believe that expended cases would make the effort to complete the rounds quite
easy, compared to working from scratch. Does no source exist for expended rounds? Since literally billions of rounds have
been manufactured in the world and the world is getting to be such a small place; there must be some source for even
expended rounds....Or are we dealing with the hypothetical issue of nothing being available what so ever?
Reloading presses and dies are legal; empty or primed cases are legal; primers are legal, but you need a license to buy
them; bullet heads are legal, unless they are expanding (varmint or hollow point) types; powder is legal if it is nitro or
pyrodex, illegal if it is BP of any form. Finished ammo is obviously illegal unless you have a certificate covering that specific
type of round, and you are not over your holding limit.
Any part of a firearm that contains pressure, except for a moderator, is illegal, with a 5 year mandatory min. Moderators are
illegal unless on a license. However, they are freely allowed on air rifles, so you are ok if you keep them clean and for .177
and .22 calibres.
HTH.
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
MAGNUM9987 April 28th, 2008, 10:46 PM
I would suggest learning how to simply role your own ammo. Their are plenty of books available for it, and any old fashioned
gun collector could teach you to roll your own ammo. If you would like i could mail you spent cartridges, though they are
winchester .45. I collect shells on the side.
That said, many components for reloading are legal to buy without a licence and all the equipment is likely to be legal in your
jurisdiction, meaning lathe turned cases are unnecessary. India prohibits hand loading cartridges, but I don't know of any
other countries where hand loading is banned.
Lead bullets are easy to cast and most of the equipment is cheap too. Quality isn't easy to achieve, but most people cant
shoot a pistol straight anyway. For rifles, only low speed cartridges suit lead projectiles, like 44-40, 32-20 and others originally
made for black powder.
Boxer primers are similar to Berdan primers with the major difference being the location of the anvil. In a Boxer primer, the
anvil is a separate piece that sits in the primer cup.
Berdans have the anvil built into the case itself.
IF available, 30-06 can be cut down and used for 45-acp brass in a pinch. Tolerances in used cases push very close to the 45
demensions and usuially cycle ok.
The cartridge dimensions are listed on Wikapedia and seem correct at this time.
And yes, lower pressure pistol cases can be turned on a lathe from brass or even Al.
If you have a lathe, mild steel or even cast iron blocks are fairly simple to machine into acceptable bullet molds (moulds) I
also have several acceptable molds made from brass.
No good for target but good for plinking (shooting cans) and small game.
Search the web for a few images.
If you really don't want to break the law surely this would be a better option....
For making your own bullet heads, lead is indeed easy to cast. Moulds are findable, or you can make them. As a child I made
one from a brick that I shattered in half then clamped together (with my feet) and drilled into on the line. This gave me a
fairly accurate 17mm hole into which I could pour lead for shotgun slugs (Also illegal in the UK without a firearms certificate,
your Shotgun certificate won't cover them!)
I'd not go firing these soft lead heads out of a rifle unless you are desperate, though. Anything high powered will end up
spitting a spray of molten lead about 50 feet. Go for soft loads (search this site) if using lead bullets and a rifle.
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
You can drill the base out of a berdan primed case and fit a shotgun primer into it. Powers a lead slug quite well, and very
quietly, without the risk of a silencer.
However, as of last year, they banned primer sales without an FAC, so you will still struggle.
Hand loading is now legal under your licence, handguns are legal, silencers are legal on certain calibres. to get a gun you in to
the gunstore (duffys in galway www.shoot.ie) and ask for the gun. Then you go to the police and ask for the licence for that
gun. They review your situation and decide wether you are fit to own the gun. Then you give your licence to mr duffy and he
gets your gun for you. I can get a folding stock, pistol grip mini 14 in .22 with no problem and even silence it.
That is the basics of irish gun law. Go to www.shoot.ie for more info.
Can you confirm whether .22 ammo is freely available over there at the moment?
I know that the Northern Ireland laws are stupidly strict. You have to have an FAC for anything, even sub-12ft-lb air rifles!
Roughly the same restrictions as here, though in the UK you have to have a record kept (written on the license), and you can
only buy the calibre and type of ammo you are allowed, and you mustn't go over your holding allowance either.
There is nothing stopping you from buying a bullet press, primers, brass, projectiles and powder to make your own
ammunition in any caliber you want. Strictly speaking you are supposed to show a liscense when buying primers and powder
but its often overlooked.
Here is something for you: the complete blueprint of the M1911A1 pistol...including the case!
http://rapidshare.com/files/116973699/1911_complete_blueprints.PDF.html
Anyway, if somebody here has a location in central Europe where I can find some mmmmh you know what, I will be interested.
I would just like to say that every one has been amazing in the info they have given and legal advice.
Its not so much the fact I can't get holds of stuff for the making of rounds cases included as innert rounds can be bought or
either propper munitions supplies.
On top I know of quite a few black market people who offer guns and rounds to loan and buy.
However, like I am sure any free man (especially with this new bullshit extend to 42 day law (dont get me started ;-))) they
like to know if the shit hits the fan that they have the ability or access to weapons.
I am also aware that (through various years of doing model rocketry in the UK (where it is easier to get BP for guns than it is
for rocket ejection or ignition charges (due to manufacturing a potential weapon(bloody hell what alot of brackets)))) that
manufacture of all components are perfectly legal for both weapons and munition in the uk as long as NOT ASSEMBLED.
Anyhow, I have since made plaster of paris bullet molds using very simple turnings to act as a mould for the plaster and
poured some rather nice castings from them.. the trick is to bake it in the oven before use.
Anyhow, next casings... ;-)
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
Does anyone know how these are made in industry? If so is this method easy to reproduce at home with some jiggery pokery?
?
Okay
P.s As for losing my fingers a couple of years back I cut of my thumb with an axe and as much as we all love to hate the NHS
they did an exceptional job of reattacthing it with no loss of functionality and little scarring :).
But also I am a very careful person anyhow and as such would if I were to actually load any rounds take full and propper
safety measures rather than having to pick out bits of shrapnell from my palms again. (long story (another time :) ) )
As for how the cases are made in the factory, it's a 20+ step process that starts with a stamped brass blank of (for RG brass at
least) a 30/70 mix. (The bullet heads are 10/90)
This is pressed/punched a large number of times, and washed between each one, and eventually it is formed into a full case.
The neck is then trimmed down to the required length. This is far beyond anything that anyone could do at home, as it
requires a large number of steps and a large number of custom made machine tools, even if you've got a large press handy.
You'll do better either lathing a case, or going scavenging. Don't forget you an often "fireform" a case from a smaller size up
to the size you want.
I say "type", because there's really no reason that smokeless couldn't be used in a metallurgically sound design.
In this build the cylinder would be, in essence, the "case" of the shell; that is, it would contain the powder, bullet, and be
ignited w/a BP-type percussion cap. Just as a BP gun is.
In a simplified form, a revolver cylinder need not be rotated and indexed internally. The cylinder could be rotated by hand,
with a simple pawl-like arrangement to locate the cylinder in proper timing.
To facilitate rapid reloading, several preloaded cylinders would be needed, and a design that allowed easy removal and
replacement. And practice!
If girth wasn't a consideration, there's also no reason that a 8 or 10 round cylinder couldn't be made, giving the gun the
capacity approaching some autoloaders. But that would really start to get heavy and concealment goes out the door...
Another design option would be to use an inline cylinder- actually not a cylinder at all, but a side-by-side arrangement. This
would be inserted from one side and exit the other, horizontally.
Truth be known, there IS a smokeless powder that can be used in most GOOD BP arms, but I'm not gonna divulge it here,
because it could cause some unsafe experimentation.
But, as I said earlier, there's really no good reason that smokeless couldn't be made to work in a "case-less", BP-style design.
"In a simplified form, a revolver cylinder need not be rotated and indexed internally. The cylinder could be rotated by hand,
with a simple pawl-like arrangement to locate the cylinder in proper timing."
Perfect alignment would be nice, but isn't a necessity. That's a function of the forcing cone.
The revolver was mentioned in my earlier post as a means of getting around making metallic cartridges.:)
"In a simplified form, a revolver cylinder need not be rotated and indexed internally. The cylinder could be rotated by hand,
with a simple pawl-like arrangement to locate the cylinder in proper timing."
Exactly! Apparently I finally have to put my design on paper for other members to see. If I manage to design it correctly it
should be doable with only a lathe and basic hand tools. Simplicity is the key as is ease of manufacture.
If/when I draw up some basic prints I'll make a separate thread. (Not to derail this thread)
But the OP hasn't posted since July and that was a farewell of sorts, so maybe it doesn't matter too much if we stray?
http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=101;t=20782;st=0
If you want to make a revolver index correctly, it's not very hard. Take a cylinder and drill the 6(?) holes for the chambers, and
while you do this, add 6 small blind holes. Once the gun is being built, you add a sprung ball bearing detent into the space
under the barrel, which simply clicks solidly into those six blind holes. Simple to ensure it all lines up now!
Having the arm to index when you cock the hammer is done using a linked arm. It simply pushes hard to start the rotation,
and a little further, which will ensure the relatively heavy cylinder continues to rotate until it locks into place for the next shot.
Just don't make the arm too long so it overshoots the cylinder, but you can easily machine little off. I'd probably use two
arms, one short to push hard, and a longer lighter one to "kick" the cylinder around far enough.
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > correct amount of primer and powder
Log in
View Full Version : correct amount of primer and powder
Ratio & proportioning is inter-related to this concept. Read the patents on firearms primers and you will notice a pattern of innovation in the primer. The issues are IMPACT
initiation & resultant flame. NOT detonation wave. The anvil (Boxer) in the primer or casing (in a Berdan unit) is designed to accomplish more than just impact initiation but to
channel the flame to the propellant.
The unspoken issue is that NG & NC is an explosive but may be induced to propel a bullet*. The dependent factor is the type of initiation and the ratio of materials in the space
provided. Too little "propellant" in too large a space may induce an explosion. What is sought is to BURN the material to provide gases.
Many of the older patent provide clues to this end. There are few hard & fast rules as cartridges & chambers vary. Begin with a book on re-loading and understand the concept
from a (home) factory standpoint. Find out what NOT to do. Then extrapolate what is needed. It is best to begin with too little primer so as to insure a BURNING process.
Interdependent factors include; chamber size, bullet weight/design, powder composition/design, barrel length/diameter, & rifling. There is a problematic situation that is called
"detonation" in hand-loading circles. This is when too little powder exists in a casing and there is a resulting catastrophic explosion. Research this phenomenon & you will have
a lot of material to base further extrapolations on. This is an involved science & there is no pat, easy answer to this query.
As a very gross generality; it's better to use too little primer than too much. Do not use primary materials that result in sharp detonation waves. That is why lead styphnate and
tetrazene are often mainstays of the materials used. Powdered glass is added to increase both impact sensitivity and to moderate hot spot detonation plume.
* When canister powders are sold in the EU they are marked as explosives. When sold in the USA they are not. This is an issue of politics. Reading materials from certain
factories one can see how the issues are skirted due to the inference that only firearms primers will be used to initiate. Source sited is REX shotgun powder, made in Hungary &
associated written material & packaging (2005).
But in fact if a detonation wave material was involved, the canister powders will detonate very, very well.
A far better choice would be the powder used in cartouches for bolt fastening guns like HILTI or similar.
Well you can not overload a primer, there is not much volume in the primer case. Just experiment. But if you use blanks as a powder source you got the primers already, don't
you?
I have confidence in my abilities and equipment in the chemistry department, and produce clean powder and primary. The engineering department is a different story, hence
this question.
As for the primers. I have read that mercury fulminate primers used to be mixed with chlorates. I am also aware that there is an empty space between propellant and primary
to facilitate flaming. Probably this will also function to make sure the unavoidable detonation wave does not hit the propellant. It is as if a shock sensitive flash powder would
do the job as well...
As for the propellant. You mention the nitroglycerin powder. Is this good for small arms ammo? I was led to believe that the common types of smokeless powder are NC with
some additive in the % range, or single-base. In something goes wrong with the loading then I do not want to hold a cartridge that detonates its propellant instead of just
burns it.
Given the complexity of this matter, does this mean I should at least start out with a commercial reloading set and substitute with home-made stuff only after mastering the
process?
NG exists within the double-based smokeless powder (DBSP) but not as a separate dry powder; - as an absorbed material with the polymer matrix of the powder granules (a
misnomer, as they are often extruded, etc - a whole other subject).
Realistically the more you read about hand loading the closer you'll get to what you want to achieve. And frankly don't get a majority of information from internet sources:
some of the most boneheaded slathering shovelfuls of bullshit I have ever read have existed from the local "retired Navy SEAL TEAM Six guys".
Generalist perspectives should mostly steer you to further reading and have sources sited. Hand loading is an area where you are really working with professional level nitric
esters & the resultant pitfalls......Good luck & use caution.
Many NC-Powders are double-based powders especially the powders used for handguns. They contain different percentages of Nitroglycerin, as well as phlegmatizers,
stabilizers and burn inhibitors and have a certain geometric to achieve the desired burn rate and pressure curve. Have fun!
You have to test the performance and characteristics of your powder by yourself. I wouldn't use a gun for this but would make my own test device from very strong and tough
chrome-molybdenum or chrome-nickel steel with a wall thickness of several centimeters at the breech.
Btw. you don't want the steel to be hard, chambers and barrels usually have a hardness of around HRC 30 or even below, you don't want to be showered with shrapnell if
anything goes terribly wrong. .
Be especially careful with high pressure cartridges like 9 mm Luger, .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum etc. or any rifle ammo.
Learn to read the signs the brass shells show after firing, look for signs of excessive pressure. Like flattend firing pin intentations, cratering around the firing pin intentation,
enlarged primer pockets, bulged or split brass shells etc.
As an aside here, handloading need not be a overly expensive undertaking, equipment-wise. Lee markets a very inexpensive cartridge reloading tool called (appropriately
enough) the Lee Loader. Sells for around $30 and has what is needed to reload a cartridge.
See: http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1215902626.4071=/html/catalog/cleeloader.html
A down side to this tool is that it's slow. And resizing straight-walled shells will get old pretty quick because of the force required and lack of leverage the tool affords.
Primers can cause a fairly wide variation in pressures generated in reloaded shells, given their small overall charge contribution. If you were on the edge, pressure-wise, a
change in primers could help (or hurt) the situation.
Once I was the opportunity to weigh a primer before and after firing. The primer was Cheddite Clerinox .209 shotshell primer. The primer fired from an otherwise empty, open
shotgun shell (uncrimped shell without powder, without shot and without wads). Weight of primer before firing: 0.80 gram, weight of primer after firing: 0.75 gram, the scale I
used was a cheap digital scale with 0.01 gram accuracy.
First of all, I would recommend picking up a reloading manual and learning about different loads, cartridges and ballistics.
Secondly, I would recommend NOT reinventing the wheel and to try to replicate an existing, low pressure cartridge. .45ACP might be a good starting point.
finally, I would say that the amount of primer compound wouldn't be as important as the consistency from primer to primer. If you have one primer/cartridge and it blows up,
no problem (assuming you're not holding the firearm). If you have multiple primers that are inconsistent, you may get false sense of security from early success and then
proceed to blow your face off.
Be careful. Don't underestimate the amount of pressure inside the chamber of a gun.
Are you wanting this for a SHTF scenario? Hunting? Self defense? You may want SP for fighting but good old BP would be fine for hunting and casual self defense. Does it have
to be a cartridge? How about looking into a percussion cap musket using BP? You could cast your own lead balls and everything.
TThere is a problematic situation that is called "detonation" in hand-loading circles. This is when too little powder exists in a casing and there is a resulting catastrophic
explosion.
I know this as "Flash Over". When there isn't enough powder in the case, the surface area of the powder is greatly increased so in stead of a gradual increase in pressure as
the powder burns for end to end, you get all of the powder being ignited at once which is not good.
As an aside here, handloading need not be a overly expensive undertaking, equipment-wise. Lee markets a very inexpensive cartridge reloading tool called (appropriately
enough) the Lee Loader. Sells for around $30 and has what is needed to reload a cartridge.
That's an expensive lee loader. Should be able to get one for $10-$15. They work extremely well for cartridges that don't require full length resizing. I can reload 20rnds in
about 15mins. (I prefer the lee loader over my reloading press for .303Brit as I can get much better accuracy)
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > Unknown Projectile
Log in
View Full Version : Unknown Projectile
Does anyone know what this is? It seems too dense for Carbon so maybe it could be one of these patented projectiles I read of....
I've heard they are made of carbon and a kind of resin to hold it together.
Any chance you might get that "friend of a friend" to provide us with a picture, CricketSquish? A really good closeup might really help identify it. A ruler placed alongside the
round in the photo would help even more to identify the casing.
OT, but has anybody ever tried wax bullets backed by thin card-stock and propelled w/a primer ONLY (no powder, I'm leery of too-small loads causing DDT)? These wax
rounds were shot from a borrowed snubby .38 (sorry, J:o). The idea was taken from a GUNS magazine article from the '70's. Talk about frangible!
I used these in my garage to the dismay of anything that walked, crawled or slithered. Not lethal to anything much larger than a mouse (blunt-force trauma) but entertaining
when boredom hits.
I never tried hot-glue bullets- wonder how they would work, being harder than wax or if they would foul the bore. Wax was OK in this regard.
Also wondered about using wax as a sabot for something more lethal but never explored this possibility either.
The fat would dissolve at the 37 degrees of a body, leaving next to no trace, and there would therefore be no ballistics, just a little GSR in the wound.
Don't know what the article said, so hopefully I'm adding something to this thread. Before simunitions, one had to make one's own ammo. A common way to do that is like
you describe above. Bill Jordan writes about it in his book "No Second Place Winner". Doesn't work well in a pistol, but in a revolver, it works just fine. It hurts when you're hit.
But as long as you wear a face mask, no permant damage is caused. Great fun if you're practicing with a partner.
What I did was drip hot glue into a Lee .454 ball mould and seat each moulded glueball down as far as it would go into each cylinder chamber without any BP at all. One #10
cap per nipple and they really ZING! (sorry, no chronograph). I'll bet they'd hurt like hell if you got struck with one, though.
Accuracy is not even an issue I can discuss at this time as I'm out of glue temporarily, but Minute of Person at 25 paces, for sure...
(safety glasses are a must and a nutcup might not be a bad idea, either! Youch! :eek:).
(safety glasses are a must and a nutcup might not be a bad idea, either! Youch! :eek:).
Got a good chuckle outta that!
But great that the hot glue doesn't foul the bore- I know what I'll be up to this evening.
I'll also try it with a BP rifle and see if that will work, too. It uses the 209 primer, so it might have enough "oomph" to spit it downrange...:D
If it is rimmed it might be .45 LC, rimless it might be a prototype round that was designed for the Thompson submachine gun. I can't find the name right now, but it was a .45
acp that was about twice as long.
Saying "a friend of a friend" is somewhat more incriminating than saying "I saw in a magazine" or something of the sort. ;)
What is curious is the perceived weight. While heavy bullets don't rule out being frangible it is counter-intuitive and would seem to make the job somewhat harder to do.
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
Alexires August 22nd, 2008, 03:16 AM
Perhaps. Then again, I would have thought that it was intuitive. You are trying to make a round that imparts enough energy to hurt/kill a target, but doesn't penetrate walls/
reactors/submarines/etc. It is easier to double the mass than make the projectile go 4 times faster (Kinetic energy eq.)
A heavier round imparts more energy than a lighter round at the same velocity. Then again, this is only a thought experiment, and I have no idea how different velocity rounds
with the same kinetic energy are for penetration.
But lighter bullets give up their energy quicker than heavier ones. Combining lighter weight w/a frangible design and higher muzzle velocity would- to me- seem the route to
take, to design a low penetration round that retains some semblance of accuracy.
I'm sure the manufacturers tip-toe the line between weight, penetration, frangibility and accuracy and the case is far from closed when it comes to this technology.
PS Thanks for correcting your OP, that E didn't = MC2. I'm glad I'm not the only one that hits the "edit" button.
It appears that I have had a brain-fart. I retract my statement about mass vs. velocity. Faster bullets would probably be more frangible. I only just reread what I had written
and it makes no sense.
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Ammunition and Reloading > What to call this besides just an idea
Log in
View Full Version : What to call this besides just an idea
I'm doing some research on hydrostatic shock and the concept of creating a 12gauge round like this came to mind as a possible way to increase that form of shock.
I've counted 4 pre-existing threads that you could have posted this spoonfeeding newb question in.
How about you go do some research on how to follow the fucking rules while you are at it?
In the event you are able to still read this, look it up.
The choke in the gun would be critical too. Normal shotgun slugs are only meant to be fired through open chokes like cylinder or skeet. Lead shot is soft and can deform fine
through a tight choke normally, but if confined within a binder, may not compress properly, damaging the choke. The binder would have to be tough enough to survive the
shock of it's acceleration and flexible enough not to cause trouble in the forcing cones or the choke.
I'd suggest if using a standard wad one try to cover the wad in release compound before binding the shot, removing the bound shot to check it's not stuck to the wad and then
reinserting it. Else use a wad that doesn't enclose the shot, only drive it, like a felt wad used in muzzle loading shotguns.
A very old trick was to open the end and pour molten wax in then close it again. That stuck the shot together so it acted rather like a cheap slug. Pressure spikes and barrel
bulges sometimes occur, especially in older guns. I'd suggest using not a lot of (soft) wax and putting it dead center.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > A m m unitio n a n d R e l o a d i n g > 37m m R e l o a d i n g . . .
Log in
View Full Version : 37mm Reloading...
From a technical prospecitive is it possible to read the fucking ru les before I go firing off my little posts everywhere?
Y o u m u s t f i n d t h e m ythical U TSFE beast who lurks around the far off land called The Forum. You m ust hunt this beast for m a n y
days, learnin g its patterns and its cries. Then you m ust slay it! The answer you seek will be found in its belly, an answer of
great prize called "Knowledge". But first, go rea d our sacred tablet known as "The Rules".... Springfield, are you listening?
*Springfield wanders off only to be devoured by the many hideous and h orrific creatures that inhabit The Forum*
*Ale x i r e s s h r u g s a n d m o v e s o f f t o c h e w s o m e b e e f *