Buddha Nature - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

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Re: Buddha nature

by Goofaholix Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:33 pm
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Dan74 wrote:
t
You might want to reread the post - it didn't come from me! :D
Goofaholix
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sun Nov 15,
2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand
Doh! my bad sorry.
Dan74 wrote:
The original heart/mind shines like pure, clear water with the sweetest taste. But if the
heart is pure, is our practice over? No, we must no cling even to this purity. We must go
beyond all duality, all concepts, all bad, all good, all pure, all impure. We must go beyond
self and nonself, beyond birth and death. When we see with the eye of wisdom, we know
that the true Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body, any history, any image.
Buddha is the ground of all being, the realization of the truth of the unmoving mind.
.
Better not let tilt see this "ground of all being" quote. It would be interesting though to see this
in Thai to determine if it is a translators interpretation or a direct one to one translation.
But yes I agree with you it's not uncommon for Thai forest masters to talk about Buddha in this
way, however I interpret the word Buddha here slightly differently. The word Buddha means
"the one who knows", so when one refers to Buddha in this way it's the quality of knowing,
awakenedness, and awareness, and of course we all have this capacity we just have to develop
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=11429&p=173000[17/8/2558 0:37:57]
it, become it.

To me this is what taking refuge in Buddha means, taking refuge in the process of knowing, of
the minds capacity to be awake and aware.
I don't have a problem with this being referred to as "Buddha nature", the problem arises I think
when one reify's Buddha nature into some kind of seed, or pseudo-atman, or uses it as a cop
out because one doesn't need to practise if one is already enlightened.
It's definately skilful means when understood correctly.
"Right effort is effort with wisdom. Because where there is wisdom, there is interest. The desire to know something is
wisdom at work. Being mindful is not difficult. But its difficult to be continuously aware. For that you need right effort. But
it does not require a great deal of energy. Its relaxed perseverance in reminding yourself to be aware. When you are
aware, wisdom unfolds naturally, and there is still more interest." - Sayadaw U Tejaniya
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Re: Buddha nature

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by Dan74 Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:53 pm

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agree!
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I don't have a problem with this being referred to as "Buddha nature", the problem arises I think
when one reify's Buddha nature into some kind of seed, or pseudo-atman, or uses it as a cop out
because one doesn't need to practise if one is already enlightened.
Dan74
Posts: 2828
Joined: Sun Mar 01,
2009 11:12 pm
No traditions teach that of course! Only modern armchair zennies who've never seen a flesh and
blood teacher in their life can fall into this and only for a short while, hopefully!
_/|\_
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Re: Buddha nature

by mikenz66 Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:52 pm
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Goofaholix wrote:
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mikenz66
Posts: 12095
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009
7:37 am
Location: New Zealand
Better not let tilt see this "ground of all being" quote. It would be interesting though to see this
in Thai to determine if it is a translators interpretation or a direct one to one translation.
Yes. Shhhhhh!
Certainly translation can be a problem, and of course there can also be considerable confusion
about what various English speakers mean by certain words.
Mike
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Re: Buddha nature


by kirk5a Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:30 pm
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greggorious wrote:
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I see Buddha nature everywhere, within my family, friends, even my Cats, and just because I've
turned to Therevada I wont change this belief.
kirk5a
Posts: 1894
Joined: Thu Sep 23,
2010 1:51 pm
How do you see this Buddha nature in your cats? Is it their fur, teeth, claws.. their eyes?
Recognition that they are also conscious? Just wondering. Why is it a "belief" if it is something
you see? Your don't need to have a "belief" in your cat, because it's right there. So... is this
Buddha nature a "belief" or something you actually observe? Maybe you won't feel comfortable
answering this pointed a question, but it reminds me of when people say they see "God" in
things. I would simply like them to explain what it is they see and how they see it.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I
am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing?
Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Buddha nature

by Anagarika Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:54 am
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I'llothrow in 2 baht on this very interesting
s
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Anagarika
Posts: 838
Joined: Thu Sep 22,
2011 11:25 pm
discussion.
I read a bit from Ajahn Thanissaro's treatise on Buddha Nature: This is why the Buddha said
that the mind is luminous, stained with defilements that come and go. Taken out of context,
this statement might be construed as implying that the mind is inherently awakened. But in
context the Buddha is simply saying that the mind, once stained, is not permanently stained.
When the conditions for the stains are gone, the mind becomes luminous again. But this
luminosity is not an awakened nature.
This status of luminosity suggests to me that, rather than the mind having Buddha "nature," the
mind has Buddha potential. Inherent potential. This idea of luminosity suggests potential
energy that does not convert into momentum until it is released. The analogy of that is the
kyudo archer, who draws the bow (potential energy) and by virtue of the meditation, the
moment arrives on its own accord and the arrow is released.
By the way, I failed physics in college. I have practiced kyudo, though.
The above is what you get for 2 baht.
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Re: Buddha nature

by Dan74 Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:40 am
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BuddhaSoup wrote:
t
I'll throw in 2 baht on this very interesting discussion.
Dan74
Posts: 2828
Joined: Sun Mar 01,
2009 11:12 pm
I read a bit from Ajahn Thanissaro's treatise on Buddha Nature: This is why the Buddha said that
the mind is luminous, stained with defilements that come and go. Taken out of context, this
statement might be construed as implying that the mind is inherently awakened. But in
context the Buddha is simply saying that the mind, once stained, is not permanently stained.
When the conditions for the stains are gone, the mind becomes luminous again. But this
luminosity is not an awakened nature.

This status of luminosity suggests to me that, rather than the mind having Buddha "nature," the
mind has Buddha potential. Inherent potential. This idea of luminosity suggests potential energy
that does not convert into momentum until it is released. The analogy of that is the kyudo
archer, who draws the bow (potential energy) and by virtue of the meditation, the moment
arrives on its own accord and the arrow is released.
By the way, I failed physics in college. I have practiced kyudo, though.
The above is what you get for 2 baht.
Whether the mind is made luminous through the removal of defilements or that luminosity is
revealed when the defilements are gone, is perhaps a matter of perspective.
To a healthy person confronted with a paranoid account of persecution, the danger is not real,
but to the sick person it is. Is the sick person inherently free or is he persecuted? Even though
the demons that oppress him have no tangible reality, to him, they are real.
Whatever keeps us in bondage appears real and inevitable to us, yet from an enlightened
perspective, these fantoms, imaginary desires and identifications are no more than a mirage.
Nothing real binds us. In that sense perhaps we are inherently enlightened.
But this thread is in Theravada subforum and if people would like to discuss this, it should be in
the context of Theravada teachings, like Ajahn Dune Atulo, Ajahn Chah, Ajahn Maha Boowa,
etc. Perhaps we can have a good look at those writings before going further. So I will bow out
for now with thanks to the participants, who as Retro said have been courteous, diplomatic
and some even thoughtful and open.
_/|\_
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Re: Buddha nature

by ground Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:51 am
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greggorious wrote:
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ground
Posts: 2592
Joined: Wed Nov 25,
2009 6:01 am
After practicing Zen for a couple of years I have started the practice of Vipassana and Samadha,
as I prefer these meditations. For the most part I like therevada Buddhism. However I'm still
heavily influenced by the Mahayana and I believe in Buddha nature. I've been told more than
once that Buddha nature is not a Therevadin concept. Does this mean that we don't have the
seed of enlightenment within us. I see Buddha nature everywhere, within my family, friends,
even my Cats, and just because I've turned to Therevada I wont change this belief.
But since you are practicing vipassana ... have you ever found a "nature" that may be validly
called "Buddha nature"? If not your believing obviously is a thought believing in another
thought, i.e. thought grasping thought, thought indulging in itself.
Kind regards
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Re: Buddha nature

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by Dan74 Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:22 pm

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quote from Ajahn Sumedho former Thai
Forest Tradition abbot of Amaravati Monastery UK
"The "I am" is a perception - isn't it? - and "God" is a perception. They're conventionally valid for
communication and so forth, but as a practice, if you don't let go of perception then you tend
to still have the illusion - an illusoriness coming from a belief in the perception of the overself,
or God or the Oneness or Buddha Nature, or the divine substance or the divine essence, or
something like that."
Dan74
Posts: 2828
Joined: Sun Mar 01,
2009 11:12 pm
http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Ajahn_Sumedho_Question_Time.htm
_/\_[/quote]
The way I understand Ajahn Sumedho's teaching here is that we should be careful not to cap
our inquiry by some imagine superconstruct. The moment we are invested in this notion (or
experience that seems to support it) that moment we are stuck. Clinging to any such "thing"
like Buddha nature is clinging and is to be let go. This is standard teaching in Mahayana too.
Cittasanto wrote:
Dan74 wrote:
That may be so, Mike, but as you probably know the term Buddha nature has been in wide
circulation in Thai Buddhism, not least in the Forest tradition.
Hi Dan,
I personally have not noticed this, have you an example?
I am reading Ajahn Amaro's Small Boat, Great Mountain just now and I think it is an excellent
source if you are interested in this question and for many other reasons.
http://www.amaravati.org/downloads/pdf/SmallBoat.pdf
Last edited by Dan74 on Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_/|\_
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Re: Buddha nature

by Cittasanto Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:01 pm
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Dan74 wrote:
t
Cittasanto wrote:
Dan74 wrote:
Cittasanto
Posts: 6006
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008
10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:
That may be so, Mike, but as you probably know the term Buddha nature has been in
wide circulation in Thai Buddhism, not least in the Forest tradition.
Hi Dan,
I personally have not noticed this, have you an example?
I am reading Ajahn Amaro's Small Boat, Great Mountain just now and I think it is an excellent
source if you are interested in this question and for many other reasons.
I have read that book, and yes it was given in a particular context of a Dzogchen retreat, where
Ajahn Amaro was sitting with the teacher as it was part of the centres policy for guest
teachers to be accompanied for their first few retreats, so may use terms not native to
theravada, and as a result not a good source of the example sought.
but it is a very good book and I have a hard copy.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them;
We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard
them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Buddha nature

by Dan74 Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:13 pm
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Cittasanto wrote:
t
Dan74 wrote:
I am reading Ajahn Amaro's Small Boat, Great Mountain just now and I think it is an
excellent source if you are interested in this question and for many other reasons.
Dan74
Posts: 2828
Joined: Sun Mar 01,
2009 11:12 pm
I have read that book, and yes it was given in a particular context of a Dzogchen retreat, where
Ajahn Amaro was sitting with the teacher as it was part of the centres policy for guest teachers
to be accompanied for their first few retreats, so may use terms not native to theravada, and
as a result not a good source of the example sought.
but it is a very good book and I have a hard copy.
The point is not the terms he used, but the essence of the teachings. In Zen, for instance,
Buddha nature does not seem to be as common as Original Mind and both are relatively
uncommon, in translations at least, where one finds terms which are more like tasks, "The
Great Matter", "Task of a Lifetime" and even more often it is not expressed at all.
When Ajahn Amaro writes (for instance):
Up until the point when Ajahn Chah met his teacher Ajahn
Mun, he said he never really understood that mind and its
objects existed as separate qualities, and that, because of getting
the two confused and tangled up, he could never find peace. But

Small Boat, Great Mountain
28
what he had got from Ajahn Munin the three short days he
spent with himwas the clear sense that there is the knowing
mind, the poo roo, the one who knows, and then there are the
objects of knowing. These are like a mirror and the images that
are reflected in it. The mirror is utterly unembellished and
uncorrupted by either the beauty or the ugliness of the objects
appearing in it. The mirror doesnt even get bored. Even when
there is nothing reflected in it, it is utterly equanimous, serene.
This was a key insight for Ajahn Chah, and it became a major
theme for his practice and teaching from that time onward.
He would compare the mind and its objects to oil and water
contained in the same bottle. The knowing mind is like the oil,
and the sense impressions are like the water. Primarily because
our minds and lives are very busy and turbulent, the oil and
water get shaken up together. It thus appears that the knowing
mind and its objects are all one substance. But if we let the system
calm down, then the oil and the water separate out; they are
essentially immiscible.
Theres the awareness, the Buddha-mind, and the impressions
of thought, the sensory world, and all other patterns of consciousness.
The two naturally separate out from each other; we
dont have to do a thing to make it happen. Intrinsically, they are
not mixed. They will separate themselves out if we let them.
At this point, we can truly can see that the mind is one thing
and the mind-objects are another. We can see the true nature of
mind, mind-essence, which knows experience and in which all
of life happens; and we can see that that transcendent quality is
devoid of relationship to individuality, space, time, and movement.
All of the objects of the worldits people, our routines
and mind statesappear and disappear within that space.
he is expressing the essence of the Buddha nature teachings that I have received in Mahayana.
_/|\_
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Re: Buddha nature

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HioDan,
s
Well
t that still isn't an example of Buddha nature
being used.
as you claimed
Cittasanto
Posts: 6006
10:31 pm
Contact:
C
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n
the term Buddha nature has been in wide circulation in Thai Buddhism, not least in the Forest
tradition.

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Re: Buddha nature

by Dan74 Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:38 pm
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Cittasanto wrote:
t
Hi Dan,
Well that still isn't an example of Buddha nature being used.
as you claimed
Dan74
Posts: 2828
Joined: Sun Mar 01,
2009 11:12 pm
the term Buddha nature has been in wide circulation in Thai Buddhism, not least in the
Forest tradition.
You are right, Citta, I have not provided evidence to justify that it is in wide circulation. So I
will retract with apologies and amend to say that teachings akin to the Mahayana teachings on
Buddha nature have been in wide circulation in Thai Buddhism, not least in the Forest
tradition.
_/|\_
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Re: Buddha nature

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Dan74 wrote:
t
Cittasanto wrote:
Cittasanto
Posts: 6006
10:31 pm
Contact:
C
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t
a
c
t
C
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t
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Hi Dan,
Well that still isn't an example of Buddha nature being used.
as you claimed
the term Buddha nature has been in wide circulation in Thai Buddhism, not least in
the Forest tradition.
You are right, Citta, I have not provided evidence to justify that it is in wide circulation. So I
will retract with apologies and amend to say that teachings akin to the Mahayana teachings on
Buddha nature have been in wide circulation in Thai Buddhism, not least in the Forest tradition.
Akin to some interpretations, yes, I would say there are many things similar, and would go as
far to say Ajahn Sumedho is more Mahayana than Theravada at times, particularly with the
sound of silence teachings which are clearly related to Avalokitsvara (sp?) and the teachings of
some Mahayana Bhikshus and Theravada Bhikkhus are so close at times it is only the expression
making them different. However Tahn Ajahn actually uses what it is called in the west, I am
not sure about Thailand, that being "The One Who Knows." This gives a different flavour to the
impression it gives the listener in general, I think.

o
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dreamov
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010
5:02 pm
Re: Buddha nature

by dreamov Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:49 am
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Does this mean

that we don't have the seed of
enlightenment within us.
Not unless we attain stream entry, we won't.

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Re: Buddha nature

by tiltbillings Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:03 am
P
o should make it as clear as day:
This
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-- The tathagatagarbha [buddha-nature] is not just any emptiness,

however. Rather it is specifically emptiness of inherent existence when
applied to a sentient being's mind, his (her) mental continuum. ... When
the mind is defiled in the unenlightened state this emptiness is called
tathagatagarbha. When the mind has become pure through following the
path and attaining Buddhahood so emptiness is referred to in the dGe
lugs tradition as the Buddha's Essence Body (_svabhavikakaya_). The
Buddha's pure mind in that state is his Gnosis or Wisdom Body
(_jnanakaya_), while the two taken together, the Buddha's mind as a
flow empty of inherent existence, is what the tradition calls the
_dharmakaya._ ... This also means that the tathagatagarbha itself is
strictly the fundamental cause of Buddhahood, and is no way identical
with the result, _dharmakaya_ or Essence Body as the case may be,
except in the sense that both defiled mind and Buddha's mind are empty
of inherent existence. ...which is to say that even the _dharmakaya_,
and, of course, emptiness itself, are all empty of inherent existence.
They are not 'truly established', there is no Absolute in the sense of an
ultimate really existing entity. --- Paul Williams MAHAYANA
BUDDHISM, pub by Routledge. Pg 106-7.
tiltbillings
Posts: 21261
Joined: Wed Dec 31,
2008 9:25 am
++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN
I, 38.
Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should
that mean that it is not real? HPatDH p.723
o
darvki
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Nov 18,
2010 10:20 am
Re: Buddha nature

by darvki Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:06 am
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Medicine
for the sick. Bhante Dhammika
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didn't have any qualms using it in his writing.
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Re: Buddha nature

Doh! my bad sorry.