28/04/2015

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Frame Stability

www.sefindia.orgForumIndex>SEFIGeneralDiscussion
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Author
TYL

SEFIRegulars

Message
Posted:FriMay16,20141:42amPostsubject:FrameStability

Throughoutmyundergraduateeducation,onlysmallemphasiswasmadebymylecturertoexplain
Joined:22Jan2014
Posts:21

framestabilityconcept.Alotoftimewasspendtoexplainonindividualstructuralelementlikebeam
andcolumn.Mostoftheuniversityassignmentisveryunrealisticasitconsidercolumnandbeamto
besimplysupportedonbothend.
Fastforward6months,Iamnowworkinginaconsultingfirm.Ihavetroubleunderstandinghowall
thisindividualstructuralelementisbeingputtogetherinaframingarrangement.
Hence,theaimofthispostistoseekassistancefromseniorSEFmemberonframestability.This
mightseemstobeatrivialquestionbutIbelievemajorityoftheyounggraduateengineershave
difficultyunderstandingthefundamentalofframestability.
Frame1(Attached):
1.Asastart,let'sconsiderthesimplestportalframearrangementFigure1.
2.Idon'tunderstandwhycan'tallnodes(AtoD)bepinned.Ireadfromthetextbookanditsaysifall
nodesarepinned,theframewillnothavesufficientlateralstability.Butshouldn'tthehorizontal
reactions(atNodeAandD)andbendingstiffnessofthecolumnprovidelateralstability.
3.WhymustnodeBandCbeamomentconnectionforthistoachievelateralstabilityassuminga
pinnedbase?
Frame2(Attached):
1.NowfollowingfromFrame1,Frame2isportaltrussframe.
2.Myunderstandingoftrussfromuniversityeducationisthattrussareallpinnedjointed.
3.Giventhattrussallpinjointed,howcannodeBandCbeamomentconnections?IfnodeBandC
arepinnedconnections,doesthebasenode(AandD)havetobemomentconnections?
4.Howdowedesignmomentconnectionsfortruss?
5.IsitpossibletohaveamomentconnectionsatNodeBandCassumingapinnedbase?

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vipul939

SEFIRegulars

Frame1

Filesize:

Posted:SatMay17,20145:36amPostsubject:

DearSir,
Joined:28Mar2011
Posts:23

EitheryouhavefixeduppernodesB&CorthelowernodesA&Dtodoanalysistoachieveminimum
stabilityofstructureortomakeitdeterminate.Itisadvisabletofixedlowersupportstoachieve
stability.
CorrectmeifIamwrong......
Thanks
VipulMehta

Backtotop
VRamachandran
...

Posted:SatMay17,20145:49pmPostsubject:FrameStability

TYL,
Joined:02Feb2009
Posts:131
Location:Bangalore

(Wouldhavebeenniceofyouifyouhadidentifiedyourself)
Pleasetrytomakeaframeusingcardboardmembers10mmx200mminsizeforAB&CD.Alsouse
twosimilarmembers(ofthesamesizeasgivenabove)onlygluethemtogetherinaninverted
shallow'V'fortheroofpart.NowmountthemverticallyonaboardusingpinsortacksforjointsA,
B,CandD.Makesurethepinsarequitefreeintheirholes.Applyaslightpressureontheridge
(preferablyataslightangletotheverticaltoincludewindload)tosimulateload.

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28/04/2015

www.sefindia.org::ViewtopicFrameStability
Youwillunderstandwhyallthenodes(AtoD)can'tbepinned.
BestWishes.
VRamachandran.

Backtotop
Venkatesh.VSSC
SEFIMember

Posted:SatMay17,20148:16pmPostsubject:FrameStability

Hello,
Joined:01Jun2013
Posts:4

Goodquestions.ItoohadsuchquestionswhenIenteredtheindustryfromcollege3yearsback.

Firstofallwehavetounderstandthattextbooksteachusthebasicsubject&dealwithveryvery
generalizedproblems.Induecourseoftime,youwillgettoknoweverything.

FRAME1

Allnodesinthatframecantbepinned.Justforbetterexplanation,apinsupportislikeholdingan
elementatoneofitsbottomend(foreg:apen/pencil/ascale...)withyourthumb&indexfinger.
Thenyouyourselfwillfeelthattheelementisnotlaterallystable,butcancarryAxialloads.Sothe
samecaseisapplicableinourcasealso.Whytopinallnodeswhenweknowthatapinconnectionwill
notgivelateralstabilty?

FRAME2

Understandtheloadpath&purposeofthetrussthatyouhaveshown.WhyshouldYougoforsucha
trussfirstofall..?
Theadvantageofthetrussthatyouhaveshownisthat,loadwillbebornebythosesmalltruss
memberswhichcancarrytension&compression(YouhavestudiedthisinMethodofsections,
methodofmembers,methodoftensioncoefficient...inyourengineering).&thusitreducesthe
bendingmomentofspanBCasawhole.
Now,
NodesB&Cwillhavetopasson/transfertheloadtothefootingnodes(A&D).

Now,
IfA,B,C,Dareallpinned,thestructurewillnothavelateralstability.

So,IhavetodesignB&Casamomentconnectionthustransferringonlyaxialloadstothebottom.

AsIsaidabove,induecourseoftime,youwillunderstandeverything(Momentconnections,Shear
connections...

).Mymailhereisjusttoexplainyouveryverysimplebasics&giveyouconfidence.

Goodluckforyourfutureendeavours

Regards,
VenkateshVSSC.
On16May201407:12,TYL<forum@sefindia.org(forum@sefindia.org)>wrote:
Quote:
Throughoutmyundergraduateeducation,onlysmallemphasiswasmadebymy
lecturertoexplainframestabilityconcept.Alotoftimewasspendtoexplainonindividual
structuralelementlikebeamandcolumn.Mostoftheuniversityassignmentisvery
unrealisticasitconsidercolumnandbeamtobesimplysupportedonbothend.
Fastforward6months,Iamnowworkinginaconsultingfirm.Ihavetroubleunderstanding
howallthisindividualstructuralelementisbeingputtogetherinaframingarrangement.
Hence,theaimofthispostistoseekassistancefromseniorSEFmemberonframestability.
ThismightseemstobeatrivialquestionbutIbelievemajorityoftheyounggraduate
engineershavedifficultyunderstandingthefundamentalofframestability.
Frame1(Attached):

http://www.sefindia.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=64951

3/9

28/04/2015

www.sefindia.org::ViewtopicFrameStability
1.Asastart,let'sconsiderthesimplestportalframearrangementFigure1.
2.Idon'tunderstandwhycan'tallnodes(AtoD)bepinned.Ireadfromthetextbookandit
saysifallnodesarepinned,theframewillnothavesufficientlateralstability.Butshouldn't
thehorizontalreactions(atNodeAandE)andbendingstiffnessofthecolumnprovidelateral
stability.
3.WhymustnodeBandCbeamomentconnectionforthistoachievelateralstability?
Frame2(Attached):
1.NowfollowingfromFrame1,Frame2isportaltrussframe.
2.Myunderstandingoftrussfromuniversityeducationisthattrussareallpinnedjointed.
3.Giventhattrussallpinjointed,howcannodeBandCbeamomentconnections?IfnodeB
andCarepinnedconnections,doesthebasenode(AandB)havetobemoment
connections?
4.Howdowedesignmomentconnectionsfortruss?

DownloadAttachments:
Frame2
Frame1

PostedviaEmail
Backtotop
TYL

SEFIRegulars

Posted:SunMay18,201411:50amPostsubject:

Thanksforallthehelp.IsreallyaEurekamomentforme.Onceagain,thanks.
Joined:22Jan2014
Posts:21

Backtotop
SATYAPAUL

GeneralSponsor

Posted:SunMay18,201412:13pmPostsubject:FrameStability

PLEASENOTEIFFOUNDATIONNODESAREHINGED,THENRESTOFTHECONNECTIONAT
NODESMUSTBERIGID.IFNODESATFOUNDATIONLEVELARERIGID,THENSUPPORTSCAN
BEHINGED,E,G.TRUSSORFRAMERESTINGONTOPOFCOLUMNS.IFTURSSISINTEGRATED,I.E
FIXEDATTOP.AHINGEWILLBEFORMEDBETWWENSUPPORTANDTOPCONNECTION.EXAMPLE

Joined:18Sep2008
Posts:16

FRAME1.MUSTPROVIDEFIXEDSUPPORTATFOUNDATIONLEVEL.REGARDSSATYAPAULOnSun,
18May201413:38:32+0530wrote>Hello,>>Goodquestions.Itoohadsuch
questionswhenIenteredtheindustryfromcollege3yearsback.>>>Firstofallwehaveto
understandthattextbooksteachusthebasicsubject&dealwithveryverygeneralizedproblems.In
duecourseoftime,youwillgettoknoweverything.>>>FRAME1>>>Allnodesinthat
framecantbepinned.Justforbetterexplanation,apinsupportislikeholdinganelementatoneof
itsbottomend(foreg:apen/pencil/ascale...)withyourthumb&indexfinger.Thenyouyourself
willfeelthattheelementisnotlaterallystable,butcancarryAxialloads.Sothesamecase
isapplicableinourcasealso.Whytopinallnodeswhenweknowthatapinconnectionwillnotgive
lateralstabilty?>>>FRAME2>>>>Understandtheloadpath&purposeofthetrussthat
youhaveshown.WhyshouldYougoforsuchatrussfirstofall..?>Theadvantageofthetrussthat
youhaveshownisthat,loadwillbebornebythosesmalltrussmemberswhichcancarrytension&
compression(YouhavestudiedthisinMethodofsections,methodofmembers,methodoftension
coefficient...inyourengineering).&thusitreducesthebendingmomentofspanBCasawhole.
>Now,>NodesB&Cwillhavetopasson/transfertheloadtothefootingnodes(A&D).
>>>Now,>IfA,B,C,Dareallpinned,thestructurewillnothavelateralstability.>>>
So,IhavetodesignB&Casamomentconnectionthustransferringonlyaxialloadstothebottom.
>>>AsIsaidabove,induecourseoftime,youwillunderstandeverything(Momentconnections,
Shearconnections...

).Mymailhereisjusttoexplainyouveryverysimplebasics&giveyou

confidence.Goodluckforyourfutureendeavours>>>Regards,>VenkateshVSSC.>>On16
May201407:12,TYLwrote:>autoremoved
PostedviaEmail
Backtotop
VPandya

GeneralSponsor

Posted:MonMay19,20144:05amPostsubject:UseSTAADInputFilePortalFrameTutorialand
Change/Run.

DearEr.TYL,
ItookyourFRAME1andmadethememberBChorizontal.WithMemberAB=DC=15ft.
andMemberBC=20ft.thisbecomesaSTAAD/PROTutorial1SteelPortalFrame.Inputfile
http://www.sefindia.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=64951

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28/04/2015

Joined:09Nov2009
Posts:489
Location:Ahmedabad

www.sefindia.org::ViewtopicFrameStability

ofthisframeisavailablewithinSTAADexamples/tutorials.IusethisSTEELPORTALFRAME
inputfileandrunthreecasestostudywhathappensifweChangesupportconditionsfrom
FixedtoPinned.AlsowhathappenswhenwedoMemberMomentMzreleaseofBeamBC
.TheseresultswillanswersquestionsyouhaveaskedonStabilityOf
Frames.STABILITYINAISCCODEChapter"C"ISRELATEDTOBUCKLINGANDSECOND
ORDER(PDELTA)EFFECTSAND
NOTTOCOMPUTERMODELSTABLEORUNSTABLEFRAME.Thatisadifferentsubject.
Tutorial1SteelPortalFrame:
Thischapterprovidesastepbysteptutorialforcreatinga2Dportalframeusing
STAAD.Pro.
LoadCase1DLonBeamBCWdl=2.5k/ft.,
LoadCase2WindLateralFX@JointB=10.0Kip.
LoadCase30.75(DL+Wind).
Case1:
SupportA&DFixed,RigidFrame(BeamBCMomentConnectionstoColumns,noMember
releasesofMZ).
LoadCase30.75(DL+Wind),Disp.Dx@NodejointB=0.34inch
ColumnCDAxialForceFX=21.10k,MomentMz@C=65.85Kft.
CASE2:
SupportA&DPinned,RigidFrame(BeamMomentConn.toColumns,NoMemberBC
releasesofMZ):
LoadCase3:DX@NodeB=1.42inches(420.0%More)alsoDisplacementisgreaterthan
typicalallowableLateralDisp.inCode=H/300=15x12/300=0.6inches.<1.42"N.G.
ColumnCDAxialForces=24.38K,MomentMz@C=95.07Kft.(144%increase).
CASE3:
SupportA&DPinned,BeamBCMomentMzreleasedatcolumnjunction):Thisisa
UNSTABLECONDITIONOFFRAME.butSTAAD/PROwhenfindZEROStiffnessatajointthis
iswhatitdoes:

"***WARNINGINSTABILITYATJOINT4(D)DIRECTION=MZ
PROBABLECAUSESINGULARADDINGWEAKSPRING.KMATRIX
DIAG=1.7427289E+05LMATRIXDIAG=6.3446350E09EQNNO8
***NOTEVERYWEAKSPRINGADDEDFORSTABILITY.**NOTE**STAADDETECTS
INSTABILITIESASEXCESSIVELOSSOFSIGNIFICANTDIGITS.DURING
DECOMPOSITION.WHENADECOMPOSEDDIAGONALISLESSTHANTHEBUILT
INREDUCTIONFACTORTIMESTHEORIGINALSTIFFNESSMATRIX
DIAGONAL,STAADPRINTSASINGULARITYNOTICE.THEBUILTINREDUCTION
FACTORIS1.000E09."

andRunsit.ThatdoesnotdoanygoodtotheResults.Herearetheresults:
LoadCase3:DX@NodeB=1.394E+07inches Onahighersideforonlya15ft.high
frame.UNSTABLE,CANNOTDOIT.

PONITISTHESEHINGEDSUPPORTCONDITIONS,RIGIDMOMENTCONNECTIONSORJUST
SHEARCONNECTIONSHASAGREATIMPACTONYOURDESIGN,MEMBERSIZES,COSTOF
THEPROJECT.YoumaygetarunasinCASE2butDeflectionsaremorethanallowable,
Membersizesarechanging.Sobecarefulwhenyoudothesethings.

AllthishastodowithisnumberofDegreesOfFreedom(D.O.F.)ateachjoint.In
PlaneFrameyouhave3d.o.f.ateachjointandInaSpaceFrameyouhave6
d.o.f.ateachjoint.HowyoureleaseorrestraintheseD.O.F.ateachjointina
frame,willmakeyourframeStableorUnstable.
Ihaveseensomeengineersrunning20storiesSteelFrameswhereLateralLoads
takenbyBRACEDBAYS,theBeamsarenotreleasedforMomentMzattwoends
.InsuchframeBeamtoColumnConnectionneedbeonlybeaShearConnection.
MomentConnectionsascomparedtoShearConnections
areveryexpensive.StructuralEngineerisincreasingtheCostoftheprojectfor
noreason.
IcansendyoumySTAAD/PROInputfileIusedforthis.JustgivemeyourEMail
http://www.sefindia.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=64951

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28/04/2015

www.sefindia.org::ViewtopicFrameStability

address.
Regards.
VasudeoPandyaP.E.;S.E.
StructuralEngineer
LasteditedbyVPandyaonTueMay20,20144:33amedited1timeintotal

Backtotop
yaminikomath
SEFIMember

Joined:23Feb2014
Posts:1

Posted:MonMay19,20148:40amPostsubject:FrameStability

Thankyousir.Sir,
Iamafinalyearcivilengineeringstudent.Caniknowmoredetailsaboutconnectedvehicle
technologyasapartofmyseminar.Whatwillhappenifthistechnologyisimplementedin
ambulancesandotheremergencyvehicles.Hopingforthebest.Thankingyou.

OnSun,May18,2014at1:36PM,Venkatesh.VSSC<forum@sefindia.org(forum@sefindia.org)>
wrote:
[quote]Hello,
Goodquestions.ItoohadsuchquestionswhenIenteredtheindustryfromcollege3yearsback.

Firstofallwehavetounderstandthattextbooksteachusthebasicsubject&dealwithveryvery
generalizedproblems.Induecourseoftime,youwillgettoknoweverything.

FRAME1

Allnodesinthatframecantbepinned.Justforbetterexplanation,apinsupportislikeholdingan
elementatoneofitsbottomend(foreg:apen/pencil/ascale...)withyourthumb&indexfinger.
Thenyouyourselfwillfeelthattheelementisnotlaterallystable,butcancarryAxialloads.Sothe
samecaseisapplicableinourcasealso.Whytopinallnodeswhenweknowthatapinconnectionwill
notgivelateralstabilty?

FRAME2

Understandtheloadpath&purposeofthetrussthatyouhaveshown.WhyshouldYougoforsucha
trussfirstofall..?
Theadvantageofthetrussthatyouhaveshownisthat,loadwillbebornebythosesmalltruss
memberswhichcancarrytension&compression(YouhavestudiedthisinMethodofsections,
methodofmembers,methodoftensioncoefficient...inyourengineering).&thusitreducesthe
bendingmomentofspanBCasawhole.
Now,
NodesB&Cwillhavetopasson/transfertheloadtothefootingnodes(A&D).

Now,
IfA,B,C,Dareallpinned,thestructurewillnothavelateralstability.

So,IhavetodesignB&Casamomentconnectionthustransferringonlyaxialloadstothebottom.

AsIsaidabove,induecourseoftime,youwillunderstandeverything(Momentconnections,Shear
connections... ).Mymailhereisjusttoexplainyouveryverysimplebasics&giveyouconfidence.
Goodluckforyourfutureendeavours

Regards,
VenkateshVSSC.

http://www.sefindia.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=64951

6/9

28/04/2015

www.sefindia.org::ViewtopicFrameStability
On16May201407:12,TYLforum@sefindia.org(forum@sefindia.org))>wrote:
autoremoved
PostedviaEmail

Backtotop
umeshrao
...

Posted:WedMay21,20149:46amPostsubject:Re:FrameStability

TYLwrote:
Joined:23Aug2010
Posts:567
Location:Bangalore,India

Throughoutmyundergraduateeducation,onlysmallemphasiswasmadebymylecturerto
explainframestabilityconcept.Alotoftimewasspendtoexplainonindividualstructural
elementlikebeamandcolumn.Mostoftheuniversityassignmentisveryunrealisticasit
considercolumnandbeamtobesimplysupportedonbothend.
Fastforward6months,Iamnowworkinginaconsultingfirm.Ihavetroubleunderstanding
howallthisindividualstructuralelementisbeingputtogetherinaframingarrangement.
Hence,theaimofthispostistoseekassistancefromseniorSEFmemberonframestability.
ThismightseemstobeatrivialquestionbutIbelievemajorityoftheyounggraduate
engineershavedifficultyunderstandingthefundamentalofframestability.
Frame1(Attached):
1.Asastart,let'sconsiderthesimplestportalframearrangementFigure1.
2.Idon'tunderstandwhycan'tallnodes(AtoD)bepinned.Ireadfromthetextbookandit
saysifallnodesarepinned,theframewillnothavesufficientlateralstability.Butshouldn't
thehorizontalreactions(atNodeAandD)andbendingstiffnessofthecolumnprovidelateral
stability.
3.WhymustnodeBandCbeamomentconnectionforthistoachievelateralstability
assumingapinnedbase?
Frame2(Attached):
1.NowfollowingfromFrame1,Frame2isportaltrussframe.
2.Myunderstandingoftrussfromuniversityeducationisthattrussareallpinnedjointed.
3.Giventhattrussallpinjointed,howcannodeBandCbeamomentconnections?IfnodeB
andCarepinnedconnections,doesthebasenode(AandD)havetobemoment
connections?
4.Howdowedesignmomentconnectionsfortruss?
5.IsitpossibletohaveamomentconnectionsatNodeBandCassumingapinnedbase?

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vikas_k

SEFIMember

Posted:MonJun30,20148:36amPostsubject:FrameStability

Hiall.,
Joined:05Dec2013
Posts:1

MyNameisVikas,ampursuingmtech2ndyearin"StructuralEngineering"nowsearchingfora
projecttopic,soikindlyrequestallofyoutosuggestmetohelpmefindmyprojecttopic(Project
mustbesimplebutinnovativethoughandonlyoneyearisallIhave,tocompletemydissertation
work)anysuggestionsandhelpwouldbegreatlyappreciated..

Regards
VikasK

OnSun,May18,2014at1:06AM,Venkatesh.VSSC<forum@sefindia.org(forum@sefindia.org)>
wrote:

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7/9

28/04/2015

www.sefindia.org::ViewtopicFrameStability
[quote]Hello,
Goodquestions.ItoohadsuchquestionswhenIenteredtheindustryfromcollege3yearsback.

Firstofallwehavetounderstandthattextbooksteachusthebasicsubject&dealwithveryvery
generalizedproblems.Induecourseoftime,youwillgettoknoweverything.

FRAME1

Allnodesinthatframecantbepinned.Justforbetterexplanation,apinsupportislikeholdingan
elementatoneofitsbottomend(foreg:apen/pencil/ascale...)withyourthumb&indexfinger.
Thenyouyourselfwillfeelthattheelementisnotlaterallystable,butcancarryAxialloads.Sothe
samecaseisapplicableinourcasealso.Whytopinallnodeswhenweknowthatapinconnectionwill
notgivelateralstabilty?

FRAME2

Understandtheloadpath&purposeofthetrussthatyouhaveshown.WhyshouldYougoforsucha
trussfirstofall..?
Theadvantageofthetrussthatyouhaveshownisthat,loadwillbebornebythosesmalltruss
memberswhichcancarrytension&compression(YouhavestudiedthisinMethodofsections,
methodofmembers,methodoftensioncoefficient...inyourengineering).&thusitreducesthe
bendingmomentofspanBCasawhole.
Now,
NodesB&Cwillhavetopasson/transfertheloadtothefootingnodes(A&D).

Now,
IfA,B,C,Dareallpinned,thestructurewillnothavelateralstability.

So,IhavetodesignB&Casamomentconnectionthustransferringonlyaxialloadstothebottom.

AsIsaidabove,induecourseoftime,youwillunderstandeverything(Momentconnections,Shear
connections...

).Mymailhereisjusttoexplainyouveryverysimplebasics&giveyouconfidence.

Goodluckforyourfutureendeavours

Regards,
VenkateshVSSC.
On16May201407:12,TYLforum@sefindia.org(forum@sefindia.org))>wrote:
autoremoved
PostedviaEmail

Backtotop

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