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Transcript: Senators Discuss Iraq on 'FOX

News Sunday'
Sunday, August 28, 2005

STORIES
WASHINGTON 'FOX
NEWS SUNDAY' CHRIS
No Vote on Draft Constitution
WALLACE: With the
Talabani to Visit U.S.
situation changing in Iraq
Sunnis Offer Counterproposals on
and on the political front
Constitution
here at home, we want to

U.S. Frees 1,000 From Abu Ghraib

check in with two key
Prison
senators, Mitch McConnell
U.S. Destroys Alleged Terror Lair
(search) of Kentucky, the
Iraqi Parliament to Receive Revised
number two Republican
Draft Charter
in the Senate, and Byron
Dorgan (search) of North
Dakota, head of the Senate's Democratic Policy Committee.

Senators, welcome back to "Fox News Sunday".

'FNS' INTERVIEW
Recap of August 21
Transcript: New Mexico's governor
attempts to control illegal immigrants
in his state

While we've been on the air, there have been some developments in
Baghdad. As you know, the Kurds and the Shia have agreed on the
constitution. It's going to be sent to the public to vote on in October.
But the Sunnis have now called for the United Nations and for the
Arab League to come in because they're so unhappy with this
constitution. Senator McConnell, do we have a mess over there?
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL, R-Ky.: Well, I talked to Secretary Rice
about this last night. And are Sunnis (search) are divided. There are a
number of Sunnis that are going to support the constitution. I think
this negotiation apparently just went on as long as it could, and they
decided to go on and file the constitution and move forward with the
election in October.

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WALLACE: But what do you think the impact is when, instead of

bringing everybody together, it seems to have deepened the
divisions?
MCCONNELL: Well, I'm not sure that it has. Many Sunnis do support
the new constitution. Some don't, and I think it's a mix. The Sunnis

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are a problem. I think we can stipulate that. But they are a distinct
minority in the country, and at some point I think they've got to go
forward with the constitutional process, and they're going to do that
with a vote on October the 15th.
WALLACE: Senator Dorgan?
SEN. BYRON DORGAN, D-N.D.: Well, I think there are some
problems here. The question is who controls the oil, among other
things. You have three factions that are very concerned about this.
This is the establishment of the framework for their government going
forward.
The discussion about whether civil law will take precedence over
Islamic rules or Islamic law is a very important issue. No one ever
thought this would be very easy, but I think it's turning out to be even
more difficult than anyone anticipated.
WALLACE: Senator McConnell, let me ask you about that, because
the general redesign of the country, from what we saw in the interim
constitution to this new draft that's going to be voted on in October,
seems clear, from a strong central government with secular
institutions to a weak central government with much more of an
Islamic tilt. Do you worry at all about the direction that Iraq is headed?
MCCONNELL: Look, what you've got here is a situation in which
clearly the 20 percent of the population that used to rule is not in a
position to rule any longer. You're going to have a democratic
process. This is a constitution, certainly, by Middle Eastern standards,
that's astonishing. Twenty-five percent of the parliament will be
women. That's more than we have in the Congress.
And while Islam is mentioned, it is not the controlling law of the
country. And I think, you know, they have done the best they can to
put this together. Not everybody was satisfied with the U.S.
Constitution at the end, but we moved forward. And I think that's
where we are now in Iraq.
WALLACE: Senator Dorgan, does it bother you that while American
troops are fighting and dying, Iraqi politicians are haggling over oil
revenue and whether the Shiites (search) can create, in effect, an
independent or autonomous state in the south with perhaps strong
ties to Iran?
DORGAN: Oh, I think the potential outcome of this could be very
troublesome. But it's not done. You know, I think that one of the
questions here with respect to Iraq is we need to turn the country of
Iraq back to the Iraqi people and withdraw the troops at some point
when that's done.
That will be done, I think almost everyone believes, when we have
trained enough security in Iraq so that the Iraqis can control their own
security. The question of the drafting of a constitution, exactly what
kind of a constitution will exist -- those are very tough issues.
And I think the American people will ask tough questions if at the end
of this process we have a country called Iraq that has a definite
Islamic tilt, close to Iran, for example. I think a lot of questions will be
asked at the end of that process.
WALLACE: Is there anything, though, that we can and/or should do
about that?
DORGAN: Well, I think we're doing everything we can. I mean, my

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expectation is -- and I know from discussions with key people that

we've been involved in trying to move this along. The president's
been on the phone with key people in Iraq. But ultimately the question
of what kind of constitution exists in the country of Iraq is going to be
decided by the Iraqi people. We may not like that, but that's going to
be the case.
WALLACE: Senator McConnell?
MCCONNELL: Of course it's going to be decided largely by the Iraqi
people. Look. They're making significant progress there. I know that
they teach all you guys in journalism school that only bad news is
news. But there was a 50 percent increase in GDP in 2004. A recent
study indicated that this year the economy will exceed where it was
before the war.
We are talking about a constitution here that's going to be, by Middle
Eastern standards, extraordinary enlightened, that is going to be
approved in all likelihood in October, and you'll have a democratic
government elected in December. And, Chris, that will be less than
three years since the downfall of Saddam. It took us in this country 11
years to get from the Declaration of Independence to the Constitution.
WALLACE: Let's turn, Senator McConnell, if we can, to the bigger
picture. Given not only the political but the military facts on the ground
today, what should be our objective in Iraq and when should we be
able to begin to bring U.S. troops home?
MCCONNELL: I don't think we ought to put a deadline on that. I think
the president's exactly right. Our goal is to be there and to win. And
the definition of win is to go through this process that we've just
described. It leads to a democratically elected government taking
office New Year's Eve and a gradual ramping up of the Iraqi security
forces.
By the way, the Iraqi people believe that things are getting
dramatically better. A recent survey indicated that 67 percent of them
think their lives will be better or much better within a year, and 75
percent of the Iraqis think their lives will be much better within the
next five years. So they're more optimistic about this than we are.
And clearly, the ticket out from the beginning has been the ramping
up of Iraqi military and security forces, and they are getting better.
WALLACE: Senator Dorgan, what's the Democratic plan? What
specifically would your party do differently in conducting this war?
DORGAN: Well, first, I mean, this is not about good news or bad
news. You know, the fact is we need to get the facts straight about
what's happening in Iraq. The question of the training of security -- I
think everyone understands that at some point, when we train
appropriate security in Iraq so that the Iraqis can provide their own
security, the American troops will be withdrawn. I think all of us
understand that's the goal.
We can't get straight answers about what kind of security exists there.
For example, July, just last month, 171,000 total trained and equipped
security forces, according to DOD. Then we discover only three out of
the 100 battalions actually had that training.
Going back to a year ago, 206,000 troops, Iraqi security forces, had
been trained -- just total nonsense. What we need to get are the facts,
straight facts, and then we need to evaluate what kind of progress will
exist, when will we reach that point where the Iraqis can handle their

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own security. At that point, American troops don't need to be involved

in Iraq. The Iraqi people can and should, in my judgment, determine
the future of Iraq.
WALLACE: I mean, I've heard a lot of criticism, but is there a specific
plan as to what you would do differently?
DORGAN: No, look. You asked the two mothers the question about
withdrawal. The answer to that simply is if we withdrew tomorrow,
there would be a bloodbath in Iraq. We can't do that. We are where
we are. We have troops in Iraq at this point.
But at some point our goal must be to have sufficient Iraqis trained to
provide their own security, at which point we will withdraw American
troops. But the American people can't even begin to understand what
the measurements of that are because we can't get straight talk. We
can't get good information about how many troops are being trained
in Iraq, really trained, sufficient to be able to take over security in Iraq.
WALLACE: Senator McConnell?
MCCONNELL: With all due respect, my good friend Byron didn't
answer your question. You asked him if the Democrats had a plan
and what they would do differently. And I listened carefully to what he
had to say, and other than sort of nit-picking about whether this or
that prediction is exactly correct, they have no plan.
And they know, as Byron just suggested, that the only thing to do is to
stay there and finish the job. And that's what we intend to do.
DORGAN: Well, but, Mitch, the fact is the plan that we must now
describe is a plan that deals with where we are. We're there. And I
don't suggest we withdraw troops tomorrow. I think there would be a
bloodbath there. But with respect to the Democrats, take a look at
what we've been pushing in the Congress for a long period of time.
That is, to make sure we have the money to get adequate body armor
to troops -- a whole range of issues like that.
And, I mean, we find ourselves in this circumstance at this point. The
question is can we get straight talk from the administration and the
DOD about what kind of forces have been trained up in Iraq to
provide for Iraqi security. The answer is we can't get straight answers
about that at this point.
WALLACE: OK. One last thing I want to get into with both of you.
Senator Dorgan, is there any part of what Cindy Sheehan has to say
that you agree with?
DORGAN: Well, I haven't listened to all of what she has to say, but it
is not unpatriotic in this country for anyone to begin questioning
policies. When that becomes unpatriotic, then this democracy lost
some of its luster, in my judgment. Cindy Sheehan, like many others
in this country, is expressing her views, very strongly held views,
about the war in Iraq. She has a right to do that, and that's part of
what makes this country a great nation.
WALLACE: When she says the president lied to get into this war, do
you agree with that?
DORGAN: Well, I mean, she can use whatever language she
chooses to use. That's her right as well. The fact is...
WALLACE: No, I know that, but I'm asking you do you agree with it.
DORGAN: Well, the fact is that we were told that it was a slam dunk,

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that there were weapons of mass destruction. We were told a whole

series of things that turned out not to have been true. On that basis
we attacked Iraq. We displaced Saddam Hussein. So we are where
we are at this point. The question is now what does this country do
and when do we begin to withdraw American troops. We do that at
the point when we've trained enough Iraqi security, but we can't even
evaluate when that's the case, because we can't get straight answers
about it.
WALLACE: But as far as her call for pulling out all the troops now,
you're against that?
DORGAN: Yes. I'm against that because there would be a bloodbath
tomorrow. But I do think that the American people ought to have this
debate, and we ought to be able to expect to have some information
about when are we adequately training Iraqi troops -- you can't get
that information at this point from the administration -- because that
will determine when, in fact, America does withdraw from Iraq.
WALLACE: Senator McConnell, what do you think of Cindy Sheehan?
MCCONNELL: I think she's got a right to express herself, and we all
share her grief. But the overwhelming majority of military families
believe in the mission. They know that we've made substantial
progress not only in Iraq, but in the whole area -- elections in
Afghanistan, people taking to the streets in Lebanon and demanding
the Syrian military leave, even an election of sorts in Saudi Arabia,
the president of Egypt saying he's going to have a real opponent next
year.
All these transformative events have been as a result of the decision
to topple Saddam Hussein. We're making substantial progress in one
of the toughest areas of the world.
WALLACE: Do you think it's bad for U.S. war effort, bad for U.S. troop
morale over there, for Cindy Sheehan and protesters to be in the
streets here?
MCCONNELL: We have the First Amendment here. Everybody's
entitled to have their say.
WALLACE: Senator McConnell, Senator Dorgan, we want to thank
you both very much for joining us today. Please come back.
DORGAN: Thank you, Chris, thank you very much.
MCCONNELL: Thank you.

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