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To cite this Article Phipps, Alison(2007)'Other Worlds are Possible: An Interview with Boaventura de Sousa Santos',Language and
Alison Phipps
Graduate School of Education, University of Glasgow, Glasgow,
Scotland, UK
Professor Boaventura de Sousa Santos is Professor of Sociology at the University of
Coimbra, where he is the director of the internationally renowned Centro de Estudos
Sociais. He is also Visiting Professor of Sociology at the University of WisconsinMadison, USA. His research interests are in Political Sociology, Sociology of Law
and in questions of epistemology. His research has embraced the struggles of
colonial and postcolonial contexts in Brazil, Colombia, India, South Africa and
Mozambique amongst others and he is a leading exponent of theories of Portuguese
identity. In recent years his intellectual attention and political engagement has
turned to the World Social Forum as a site of what he calls counter hegemonic
globalisation and resistance (see www.forumsocialmundial.org.br).
His work draws upon rich linguistic and intercultural contexts, refusing to seek out
simple technicist or positivist solutions to the vast array of complexities inherent in
the localised globalisms and globalised localisms the terms he uses to describe
different relationships and positions within neoliberal hegemonic globalisation.
In the relatively new field of interdisciplinary research, the aspects of power,
resistance, complexity and hegemony take time to theorise. The work of Professor
Santos offers a rich vein of theoretical reflection and translation for language(s) and
intercultural communication.
The following interview is an edited version of a dialogue that took place on 27 April
2006 in the Centro de Estudos Sociais, Universidade de Coimbra, Portugal.
doi: 10.2167/laic262.0
BdSS:
2007 A. Phipps
Vol. 7, No. 1, 2007
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Language
AP:
In all your work, but perhaps most explicitly in the highly innovative
methodology chapter of Towards a New Common Sense (Routledge,
1995), you explore metaphorical aspects of sociological method,
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world that have lost their glamour and in the context of the World
Social Forum we are working to try and find ways of creating modest,
but real utopias.
Translation
Central to your notion of sociology of absences is the notion that social
experience is made up of social inexperience. The dominant classes
take their experience of suffering the ignorance of the dominated as
given. Absent is their own inexperience of suffering, imposed as
experience upon the dominated peoples. This imposition is, we might
say, a form of intercultural communication. Your suggestion is that a
sociology of absences is what endows counter-hegemonic struggles
with cosmopolitanism, that is, openness towards the other and
increased knowledge (Nuestra America, pp. 191192).
To achieve openness towards others you propose the procedure
of translation. Your theory of translation seeks translation as a
procedure that allows for mutual intelligibility [. . .] identifying
what unites and is common to entities that are separate[d] by their
reciprocal differences. This theory of translation is abstracted both
from the material origins of the word and the sense of the rendering of
one language in another. As such it is a metaphor twice removed.
What is the place of language and languages in your theory of
translation? What is the place of material and embodiment in your
theory of translation?
BdSS: Language plays an important part in my theory of translation to the
extent that I believe we need to re-metaphorise language. Linguistic
hospitality, such as Ricoeur speaks of, requires ontological risks that
will enable us to work beyond the negativity of translation. Translation is not just about the joy of contrasting different aspects of
translation as a problem, in a postcolonial world. To use translation as
a tool and praxis is to use it as a kind of ruin. For translation is indeed
an imperial instrument. It reduces diversity by reducing cultures to
one language, and we are indeed talking of a reduction in the work of
colonial translation. The 16th-century Jesuit Portuguese translated the
catechism into Tupi. In so doing they transformed it, rendering it
infantile. Concepts and knowledge came to seem aggressive and as an
act of indoctrination.
AP:
Your own work has been cast in the Portuguese and English language,
more recently also in Spanish. You yourself speak several languages.
Many of your own theoretical coinages and concepts have Latinate
roots which, like the Universal Human Rights deconstructed in your
own work, are bound into a Western (Classical, Judeo-Christian)
intellectual situation. I wonder how your conception of translation
enables you to break with this tradition and find the openness which
you accord the procedure? In particular, in your work on translation
and human rights (alluded to above) you take the concept of human
dignity (Development 2005: The Future of the World Social Forum:
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The Work of Translation) and you show the partial and situated
nature of its Western conceptualization as human rights (legality)
when compared to the Islamic concept of umma (community) and the
Hindu concept of dharma (cosmic harmony involving human and all
other beings). You are keen to explore the work of hermeneutics
which occurs when knowledges are translated in the contact zone
of the WSF. As a linguist and anthropologist I see two difficulties
with your understanding of the work of translation here: you do not
take the power relations and self-interests of translation practices
into account, or the difficult positions inhabited, traditionally, by
translators neither betwixt nor between, tricksters, fraudsters,
magicians, anonymous women. Who does the work of translation in
the contexts you speak of? Is there a voluntarism at work, or language
apartheid? Whose interests are served by this work of translation?
As I mentioned before, translation is a ruin. It is part of a global
imposition of language and hegemony. So, I can discard it in order to
achieve emancipation, or I can re-shape it from the beginning. The
historical record on translation is very bad but at the same time
translation can serve, signposting the rich points by using an
expanded case method. The contradictions of translation, in the ruin
of translation are those as I discovered in the favelas of a much
wider social field. So, I ask myself, what is our task? And what is our
task when we do this work in the WSF? It is to increase mutual
intelligibility, it is to be reciprocal. And this is the first transgression,
for no single concepts are unanimous. This is how we come in to an
expanding circle of reciprocity. And since you and I speak different
languages there is already an openness to the idea of conversation.
A rich vein in your work on translation, for me, comes precisely from
your work as a sociologist, rather than as linguist or anthropologist.
This allows you to assert against the grain of translation theory in
the past decades that (utopian) translation and mutual intelligibility
are possible and that translation, far from being a problem to be
solved is at the root of other possible worlds. As such, you are
advancing a view of translation as linguistic hospitality, not dissimilar
to that of Paul Ricoeur. Would you care to elaborate on this,
particularly with regard to your work with the WSF? If other worlds
are possible, is translation also possible and desirable?
Even if translation is a ruin, translation is still desirable and necessary
if and when it is about community and about the common tasks, the
hard common tasks at hand. This is, I think, where my novelty comes
in vis a` vis Ricoeurs theory of translation as a form of linguistic
hospitality. When we are engaged in hard common tasks language
will intervene when we need the details. It enables denser forms
of encounter and it shows us that we have to know the other and
the others language. If we do not know the others language and
the other then we are taking unwarranted risks and not having
conversation around difficulties such as decolonisation, liberation,
emancipation.
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Writing Colonialism
Largely, as you point out (Luso-Brazilian Review 39), the history of
colonialism has been written in English, not Portuguese. How do you
see language as perpetuating what you describe as a subaltern
colonialism within a Europe which is bureaucratically committed to
multi- and plurilingualism and within the WSF, and how does this
accord with your utopian theory of translation?
BdSS: Much attention has been paid to the interiority of language, but we
are not talking about a revolution in the Freudian sense, in the sense of
introversion, we are talking about an exterior, extroverted revolution, a
release from the prison house of language which has been a central
poststructuralist concern. We need this because whatever suffering is,
it is coming home. Terror shows us what Benjamin had already
demonstrated, that the other is inside us and is not a foreigner, so we
need to develop new strategies of trust and reciprocity in this context.
But we cannot arrive at a politics of recognition, and a politics of
equality, from a politics of difference by way of an interior route, it
will require extraversion with translation not as theory but as trust.
In the context of the WSF and anti-hegemonic action these raise
ontological questions about a type of political action that is as global
as globalisation itself. The oppressed do not need to negate the past in
the way the colonisers do, but they do need to learn how to resist and
to be resisters. One of the ways this can occur is by learning a different
type of conversation, a conversation not among the same, but among
the different. The unifying point of the WSF is One no, many
Yeses, and this in and of itself opens a space for rich new
conversations. In discussions on human rights and in the SouthSouth
South dialogues I have been involved with, I have seen how
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References
Bauman, Z. (2000) Liquid Modernity. Oxford: Polity.
Beck, U. (1992) Risk Society: Towards a New Modernity. London: Sage.
Cronin, M. (2003) Translation and Globalization. London: Routledge.
de Andrade, O. (1990) A utopia antropofagica. Sao Paulo: Globo.
Katz, C. (2004) Growing Up Global: Economic Restructuring and Childrens Everyday Lives.
Minnesota: University of Minnesota Press.
Ricoeur, P. (2004) Sur la Traduction. Paris: Bayard.
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