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Most Overpowered Army Books In Warhammer History?

Started by Hortennse , Oct 21 2012 04:32 PM

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 04:32 PM

Hortennse
QQ post but with more honesty than you might expect
My rankings:

1. 7th Edition Dark Elves- Nothing comes close to how overpowered this book was and is. This armybook has been
pure cheese for two editions and opponents of dark elves will laugh when it's gone. Underpriced units like Altair of
Khaine and Hydras are ridiculous, but the true power of the army book is in it's beyond ridiculous magic items.
2. 8th Edition Ogres- If you claim that ogres are not an overpowered 8th edition book, then I hate to be dismissive
but it means that the ogres are just plain bad in your area. If you have ever faced a gutstar with 2 combat
slaughtermasters, full command, a BSB with runemaw in the 2nd rank, and 2 Firebellies (I am quickly realizing that
Firebellies are the biggest deal in the entire army book), then you should be glad you are a dwarf player, because we
are the only army that can actually do something about this cheese.
3. 6th Edition Wood Elves- You couldn't engage them, they shot you all game. All there is to say really.
4. 7th edition Skaven- the 6th edition skaven book was insane, the army book designer wrote an apology for how
badly he underpriced Jezzails, but the 7th is worse. The army has so many units that basically translate to "I have a
roll to essentially win the game every turn", at a low price so that many of them can be afforded, and the rest of the
army is slaves to tie you up while he keeps trying his "I win" rolls all game.
5. 4th/5th Edition Dwarfs- 65 point Organ guns whose rules translated to "5 cannons tied together that can all shoot
in 1 turn and can have the Rune of Forging on it." Really the rest of the army sucked (no step in attacks and slow as
hell), but just spend 25% of your army on those organ guns and you win. You could also spend about 1000 points
making an unbeatable Runelord too if you wanted, they used to be strength 5 toughness 6, weapon skill 8.
Edited by Hortennse, 21 October 2012 - 04:35 PM.

Posted 21 October 2012 - 05:19 PM

David L

Putting 7th edition Dark Elves on top is a clear mistake in my opinion. 7th edition Daemons were more powerful and
truly re-defined broken. Certainly DE came closer to Daemons than anyone else, but every analysis I've seen puts
Daemons on top overall. I remember doing a bunch of mathematical analysis of UK GT Heat results in 2008. By late
in the year, Daemons made up about half of the entries. That means Daemons played Daemons a lot, and yet the
Daemon army book still had the highest average result of all army books!
Posted 21 October 2012 - 05:59 PM

Thane Morgran

Personally, I'd put both scaven and ogres above dark elves, as both have army wide overpowered-ness. Dark elves on
the other hand are a very nice book with (under 8th at least) pretty good balance and many viable builds which is
spoilt by a handful of broken bits (pendant on anything with a decent armour save, hydra points cost and sacrificial
dagger).
Also, I'd have to give 5th edition bretonians a mention just for how good their lance and arrowhead formations were.
I never saw them used in game, but chaos dwarfs looked too nasty form their own good back in the day too, what
with their magic, earthshaker cannons and bull centaurs...

Posted 21 October 2012 - 06:34 PM

popevaderii

Well if anyone can remember back to 3rd Ed and Warhammer Armies... the High Elf army list of Dragon Riders,
Silver Helms and Wardancers coupled with tooled up heroes and wizards is probably the most broken thing
Warhammer has ever seen.
Posted 21 October 2012 - 07:03 PM

Grim Stoki

I agree with David about 7th ed DoC. I never played in 7th ed, but I've heard about how dominate that book was. 8th
toned them down significantly, but even then I think I'd put them on the list. Their special characters are simply
insane. Fateweaver is a massive game breaker, and Skulltaker is stupid good for a hero selection. They're both auto
includes in any format that allows them.
Posted 21 October 2012 - 07:25 PM

The Low King

Ogres arnt an overpowered book. Just because they have one deathstar build that is very strong doesnt make them
overpowered.
Posted 21 October 2012 - 07:47 PM

Grim Stoki

It'll be interesting to see how the gutstar build fares with the new faq on unstable. The twitterverse is already buzzing
about how conga-lined zombies and swarms will come in to slow down hordes.

'The Low King', on 22 Oct 2012 - 05:25 AM, said:

Ogres arnt an overpowered book. Just because they have one deathstar build that is very strong doesnt make them overpowered.

That's not the only build Ogres can pull out. Triple mournfang, maneater hordes, even triple stonehorns are all pretty
scary prospects. The book is spoiled for choice. Ogres have subtle weaknesses, but they are a very, very strong book.
Posted 21 October 2012 - 07:57 PM

The Low King

'Grim Stoki', on 22 Oct 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

That's not the only build Ogres can pull out. Triple mournfang, maneater hordes, even triple stonehorns are all pretty scary
prospects. The book is spoiled for choice. Ogres have subtle weaknesses, but they are a very, very strong book.

Its the only ogre build ive looked at and thought i would have problems dealing with it....and even then i would just
be a **** an wip out my slayer conga line.
I agree that they are a strong book, probably the strongest 8th edition book......but not overpowered
If you feel they are overpowered then please point me towards all the tournaments they are winning
Edited by The Low King, 21 October 2012 - 08:05 PM.

Posted 21 October 2012 - 08:25 PM

the bearded one

At the Dutch GT where I was today I did see at least 3 ogres on the highest tables, with the winner being ogres. He's a
friend from the local group who quickly whipped up his ogres (I had never even seen him play them
finished his army for the GT.
This is what the army looked like btw;

) and

Posted 21 October 2012 - 08:30 PM

Grim Stoki
'The Low King', on 22 Oct 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:
If you feel they are overpowered then please point me towards all the tournaments they are winning

Oh that's an easy one:

Bayou Battles 2012: http://houstonfb.com/Results.html (http://houstonfb.com/Results.html)
Blood in the Sun 2012: http://www.bloodinth...com/results.asp (http://www.bloodinthesun.com/results.asp)
Invansion Kenosha IV: http://4.bp.blogspot...all Results.png (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GwCn78R7BQ/UAIFA3vtXwI/AAAAAAAACjI/NAWa-bCzC0A/s1600/Overall+Results.png)
Illinois Warhammer Fantasy Battles Summer League (not a torunament, but whatever) : http://iwfb.net/home/?
page_id=131 (http://iwfb.net/home/?page_id=131)
Posted 21 October 2012 - 10:15 PM

The Low King

Fair point TBO, though i would say that your friend probably won more due to skill than the list, because that list
doesnt look too hard.

'Grim Stoki', on 22 Oct 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

Oh that's an easy one:

Thats all of them is it?

Posted 21 October 2012 - 10:18 PM

Hortennse

BTW, I was planning on being at that Blood in the Sun tourney and will be next year, I got sick this time. My buddy
who plays VC played the Ogre who won that tourney and told me he was a HUGE dousche. He had a flank charge on
him and the guy literally picked up his unit and was like "I didnt mean to have it there" and rearranged his
formation. When the tournament official got there the guy denied doing it and they had to d6 whether or not it even
happened.

Practically every unit in the Ogre army is underpriced and overpowered. Take the Firebelly. It costs roughly the same
as a high elf mage. He is a caster who can caddy the Hellheart, fights pretty darn well since he can take a great
weapon, and he has a breath weapon on top of it! Another example? Lets take the Ironblaster, which should cost
almost double what it actually does. Low King, I'm glad you dont have trouble with ogres, neither do I, in fact I've
never lost to one in quite a few games. We dwarfs have it best against them, take an army that uses magic and show
me how you are going to beat a Death slaughtermaster with greedy fist who turns your Lvl 4 mage to a level 0 with a
single successful cast. We have a great chance against them, most armies have no chance against a good ogre general.
Posted 21 October 2012 - 10:21 PM

Hortennse
'The Low King', on 22 Oct 2012 - 08:15 AM, said:

Fair point TBO, though i would say that your friend probably won more due to skill than the list, because that list doesnt look too
hard.

What list? He didn't post one. From what I saw from the picture, leadbelchers are quite awesome in a low points
game, which it looks like that wasnt super high points. They shoot a ton, and then they're quite alright in combat too,
a perfect low points unit.

Quote
Thats all of them is it?

Stop trolling, you wanted examples, he provided some. Show us why ogres arent overpowered, dont just dismiss
someone when they give you what you ask for.
Edited by Hortennse, 21 October 2012 - 10:23 PM.

Posted 21 October 2012 - 10:38 PM

The Low King

Is the firebelly a Lord choice? because i swear the Hellheart is 55 points, meaning anything you have taking it isnt
really a 'caddy'.
Not sure about ironblasters, ive never really seen them do very well, give me a Runed Cannon any day.
Non-underpriced stuff in the Ogre book (in my veiw):
-Yhetties
-Ghorger
-Bulls
-Ironguts
-Stonehorns/Thundertusks
-Butchers
-Leadbelchers (though not in a low points game as you say)
-Maneaters
Oh, and ive beaten them with both woodelves and Lizardmen aswell as my Dwarfs. Ive also Tabled them once with a
dwarf combat army and a couple of times with a balanced army. Yes, maybe my opponants wernt the best, but i still
hold they arnt overpowered.

'Hortennse', on 22 Oct 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

What list? He didn't post one. From what I saw from the picture, leadbelchers are quite awesome in a low points game, which it
looks like that wasnt super high points. They shoot a ton, and then they're quite alright in combat too, a perfect low points unit.

I assumed everything in the picture was in the army (possibly baring a unit), guessed it was about 2000 points and
worked out how i would beat it.

'Hortennse', on 22 Oct 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

Stop trolling, you wanted examples, he provided some. Show us why ogres arent overpowered, dont just dismiss someone when they
give you what you ask for.

No actually, i asked him to "point me towards all the tournaments they are winning"
Not a few random examples, because im sure if i wanted i could find a tournament woodelves won. It doesnt mean
anything to present me with four tournaments that may or may not have been comped in some way. If you want to
say they are overpowered, get a list of all the tournaments (there must be some site that has the info) and show me
that Ogres have won the most (by a large margin preferably).
Posted 21 October 2012 - 11:40 PM

the bearded one

'Hortennse', on 22 Oct 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

'The Low King', on 22 Oct 2012 - 08:15 AM, said:

Fair point TBO, though i would say that your friend probably won more due to skill than the list, because that list doesnt look
too hard.
What list? He didn't post one. From what I saw from the picture, leadbelchers are quite awesome in a low points game, which it
looks like that wasnt super high points. They shoot a ton, and then they're quite alright in combat too, a perfect low points unit.

Well it was 2400 pts, but 2x2 mournfang can still hit quite hard, as long as leadbelchers do a decent job at thinning
enemies. I faced 11 leadbelchers in the last game and they throw out a ton of shooting with usually only -1 for long
range. 21 shots average for a block of 6. They're fine in large games too, and they are still ogres after all, so you dont
want them in your flank.
I checked the list of the GT and the top 5 had 4 ogres (the top 10 2 skaven, 2 dark elves, lizardmen and vampires).
I wouldnt really call ogres overpowered, but they are very strong and have some incredibly powerful items (wizard
with lore of death and greedyfist sniping enemy wizards and taking off levels, and the hellheart of course) and are
robust all-round with great core, and plenty of possibilities in small side-units like chaff.

'The Low King', on 22 Oct 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

Is the firebelly a Lord choice? because i swear the Hellheart is 55 points, meaning anything you have taking it isnt really a 'caddy'.

50, and he's a hero.

Quote
Not sure about ironblasters, ive never really seen them do very well, give me a Runed Cannon any day.

They're pretty much like a normal cannon (though have move & shoot, and 2 dice for the bounce making it harder to
miss, but its on top of a T6 str5 chariot with a strong ogre and mount and can act as a chariot. For 175 points that's
just a steal. A really tough chariot-cannon.
Edited by the bearded one, 21 October 2012 - 11:44 PM.

Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:12 AM

Grim Stoki

'The Low King', on 22 Oct 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

Not a few random examples, because im sure if i wanted i could find a tournament woodelves won. It doesnt mean anything to
present me with four tournaments that may or may not have been comped in some way. If you want to say they are overpowered,
get a list of all the tournaments (there must be some site that has the info) and show me that Ogres have won the most (by a large
margin preferably).

Look at rankings HQ which evaluates all standings based on reported tournaments:

http://www.rankingsh...nkingGroupId=36 (http://www.rankingshq.com/rankings/default.aspx?
RankingGroupId=36)
Ogres are number 2 in the USA. They are only behind WoC, which most people don't exactly count as a soft army.

I'll reserve judgement on whether or not Ogres are overpowered. That's very locally dependent on individual meta
games, and I still think the army has some glaring weaknesses that are exploitable, especially for dwarfs.
But one thing I don't think you can argue is their book is simply loaded with shiny things:
Slaughtermasters are amazing generals
The runemaw is arguably better magic defense than what dwarfs bring
Hellheart is deadly and has no defense.
Mournfang, well, they're mournfang. It's hard to say how deadly they can be
Maneaters are the swiss army chainsaw of WHFB. They can fufill almost ANY roll
Sabertusks are the best chaff in the game
It's particularly telling how tough Ogres are based on what competitive armies don't take. You almost never see
gnoblars, stonehorns. These would be amazing units in any other army, but Ogre players usually never pick them
because other things in the book are better. Look at a stonehorn. It's a huge smashy monster which deliberately
mitigates monsters' biggest weakness, multiwound attacks. Why aren't they a one plus? Because Ironblasters are so
much better.
Posted 22 October 2012 - 01:09 AM

Hortennse

Ironblasters are just complete bullcrap. They should be 250 points for what they do, they are barely if at all worse
than a steam tank is.
Posted 22 October 2012 - 02:44 PM

Montegue

Ironblasters are great, and if they don't misfire on the first shot, they are better than our own cannons. However, if
they *do* misfire on the first shot, they can do a lot of harm to the other guy. Which can easily cause a panic, and
with Ogres, that can often spell the difference in a game. I find the Gut Star to be something we have a really, really
hard time dealing with. However, I do find that if I get the jump on the artillery fight, and can then direct my
firepower where it needs to go, the other threats aren't so bad.
Bulls, assuming they don't IF a buff on them like Wyssan's or Troll Guts, get decimated by our great weapons and
hammerers. Heck, they get decimated by longbeards with shields. Ironguts win when coupled with a lot of
characters. I don't know how to deal with that other than to make sure there's about 6-8 left when they hit the line.
There's other options, as well, though. Part of me thinks that creating our own Dwarf Star, with the 1+ BSB, the Tank
Lord on Shield Bearers, the 2+ rerollable Runelord, and maybe even another 2+ rerollable Thane would cut down
significantly on their combat resolution and let us simply hold them in place while the rest of our army gets all the
points.
That, or the Anvil. The Anvil, so long as it doesn't blow itself up, can give us an additional 2 turns or more to hammer
away on that gutstar and the rest of his army.
Posted 22 October 2012 - 04:14 PM

The Low King

'Grim Stoki', on 22 Oct 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

Look at rankings HQ which evaluates all standings based on reported tournaments: http://www.rankingsh...nkingGroupId=36
(http://www.rankingshq.com/rankings/default.aspx?RankingGroupId=36)
Ogres are number 2 in the USA. They are only behind WoC, which most people don't exactly count as a soft army.

Im not denying they arnt powerful, just not broken.

The list at the start of this post had ogres as one of the most broken armies, WOC arnt even on that list yet do better
in tournaments....

'Grim Stoki', on 22 Oct 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

But one thing I don't think you can argue is their book is simply loaded with shiny things:
Slaughtermasters are amazing generals
The runemaw is arguably better magic defense than what dwarfs bring

Hellheart is deadly and has no defense.

Mournfang, well, they're mournfang. It's hard to say how deadly they can be
Maneaters are the swiss army chainsaw of WHFB. They can fufill almost ANY roll
Sabertusks are the best chaff in the game

-Any level 4 with the standard of Discipline is a good general, what makes slaughtermasters better?
-Defends one unit, doesnt it stop any buffs on the unit aswell? not to mention you can just kill the guy carrying it....
-Hellheart is random, requires you to push forwards with the Bearer and only works effectively with multiple
wizards.
-Mournfang....they are very strong but have some weaknesses and ogre players tend to be overconfident with them

'the bearded one', on 22 Oct 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

I wouldnt really call ogres overpowered, but they are very strong and have some incredibly powerful items (wizard with lore of death
and greedyfist sniping enemy wizards and taking off levels, and the hellheart of course) and are robust all-round with great core,
and plenty of possibilities in small side-units like chaff.

Fair enough, i agree with you, there are some nasty combos in that army, they probably should be toned down a bit.

'the bearded one', on 22 Oct 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

50, and he's a hero.

Touche, i thought it cost more points. Still, its a hefty investment.

.
'the bearded one', on 22 Oct 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:
They're pretty much like a normal cannon (though have move & shoot, and 2 dice for the bounce making it harder to miss, but its on
top of a T6 str5 chariot with a strong ogre and mount and can act as a chariot. For 175 points that's just a steal. A really tough
chariot-cannon.

I agree they should be a little more, but i didnt realise they have move and shoot.
Their problem is that when you shoot with them they are an overpriced cannon and when you fight with them they
are an overpriced chariot, you cant do both at the same time.
Personally my main hate with them is that they are just stupid, they make no sense what-so-ever.

'Hortennse', on 22 Oct 2012 - 11:09 AM, said:

Ironblasters are just complete bullcrap. They should be 250 points for what they do, they are barely if at all worse than a steam tank
is.

You mean ignoring the Grinding attacks, whole steam tank mechaniic, armour save and breathweapon? 250 points
would mean you can get a Runed up dwarf cannon AND a chariot or two for the price.
Posted 22 October 2012 - 04:48 PM

Lanceocletian
Its sort of hard for me to think of this from an 'all-time' perspective- but here is my go-

1. 2007-2008- DE and Demons tied- They broke the great trend of seventh edition armies and nearly the game itself.
Tournaments developed tiers to allow demons and dark elves to fight it out while everyone else hid until the final
rounds, comp councils with punishing comp systems came into existence, people had to build their lists almost
entirely towards fighting them in the tournament scene. It was pretty absurd, by the time the Skaven were released it
really was Demons, DE, Skaven, and VC as a complete tier of their own and everyone else.

2. 2003-2004- Skaven and Bretonnians- SAD armies plus all relatively inexpensive knight units that crushed
everything. It helped push for the development of more stubborn units and unbreakable units just to counter
Bretonnian knight lances. It was the golden age of heavy cavalry for WFB as High Elf, Chaos, and Empire were also
fielding predominantly knights. Look at the tournament results for these two years, I think it was even more
dominant for Bretonnian and Skaven than DE and Demons in 2007-2008 due to the lack of any comp at
tournaments.
3. 1991-92 WD Empire List- The Empire list that came as a pre-release before the 4th edition army book. Helblasters
were 50 points a piece and the Empire had access to every troop type imaginable from flaggelants, ogres, kislev and
dwarves! Similarly, High Elf bolt throwers were 50 points per model for sometime and up to 25% of your army could
be warmachines....they won games by themselves.
4. The top armies in current game- The two armies I always have to seriously address when building a tournament
list include Ogres and Skaven. Ogres hit your lines on turn two with 1-2 units of mournfangs and a deathstar
supported by lead belchers and iron blasters....They hit so hard and can cripple magic and your shooting. Skaven still
hold a special place since most units in their entire army are so inexpensive. If they took a 15-25% point increase, I
think it would be ok, but as of now slaves, WLC, and plague monks don't cost enough.
Edited by TheFrenchDwarf, 22 October 2012 - 04:49 PM.

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