In conversation with Duan Rodi

Doing Modern and Contemporary Art

Assignment 3: Artist Interview
Karianne van der Meij & Sacha Alexander Post
Wednesday, 2 May 20112
Amsterdam

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Brief introduction to interview format
In preparation for our interview with Serbian artist Duan Rodi (Belgrade, 1975), we have been looking
into different interview formats and potential publishers. Here, we have been inspired by the interview
series of Hans-Ulrich Obrist (In conversation with), as published in online journal e-flux.
These interviews are written in Q&A format, but read as free-flowing in-depth conversations. In these
interviews, Obrist in his questions actively engages with the interviewees answers. Therefore, his
questions in no way seem rigid, imposed, or out of context. Having e-flux in mind as our hypothetical
publisher, we will interview Rodi in a similar way, engaging with his answers and actively formulating
our questions as we go along. Our final text is also of the same length as the Obrist interviews.
Preparing for the interview, we formulated a set of key themes that we, in any case, want to address.
These themes are: (1) Rodi's personal background and his personal and professional relation to the
political situation in Serbia (and in particular to Belgrade); (2) external influences affecting his artistic
practice; (3) conceptualization; (4) realization; and (5) mediation of his practice; (6) intentions behind his
work, explained on the basis of one particular artwork; and (7) Rodis future as an artist, personally and
in society at large.
After formulating these themes we conceived of a set of potential questions, divided into these categories,
intended to aid us during the interview and to make sure we are not forgetting anything crucial. Important
to note, however, is that these questions are in no way definite. As expressed earlier, we will actively
engage with Rodis answers and will see where his words lead us.
Since we have e-flux in mind as our hypothetical publisher, we have formulated and will formulate our
questions addressing a predominantly professional audience. In effect, this will be an in-depth interview,
and we will assume our reader is aware of the existence of post-academic art institutions, such as the
Rijksacademie voor Beeldende Kunsten, and notions used to identify particular exhibition spaces for
contemporary art (i.e. the white cube).
Please find below our questions as formulated before the interview. Because the interview is partly based
on improvisation, not all questions will be addressed in the final text.

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Questions
(1) Personal background and political situation Serbia
- What role did your childhood in Belgrade play in your personal development? To what extent did it shape
you?
- Do you consider yourself an artist?
- If yes, at what point did you start calling yourself an artist? If you do not see yourself as an artist, why not?
- Was this moment influenced by a specific artwork or event in your life?
- Can you tell us something about the political and social situation in Serbia when you grew up there?
- Did this situation influence you, and how did you experience it?
- Did it influence your artistic practice?
- Do you consider any specific place home to you? What kind of relation do you have to Serbia and to The
Netherlands?
(2) Influences
- How would you typify your way of interacting with other people and, more, generally, with your direct
environment?
- What role do friends, family and lovers play in your life? And to what extent do they influence your work?
- Are there other people that inspire you? For example, other artists, or curators, or theorists, or other public
figures?
- How do you relate yourself to other artists of your generation? And to artists with a similar background?
And to other artists affiliated to the Rijksacademie?
- How did your education influence you so far? Did the Rietveld Academie or the Rijksacademie shape you
in any particular way so far?
- What role does the Rijksacademie play in your work?
(3) Artistic practice: conceptualization
- Can you give a broad overview of your professional interests?
- Can you give us an example of how this interest comes forth in your work?
- Would you say your artistic practice consists of creating individual artworks, or do you see your artistic
practice to be more project-oriented?
- Would you place yourself in a specific tradition of artistic practice (i.e. sculpture, or performance, for
example)?
- Do you have a specific way of conceptualizing your art? Do you work out of existing concepts, or interests,
or specific events, for example?

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(4) Artistic practice: realization
- What constitutes a work of art for you?
- Are they objects in a specific location and time? Or concepts engaged with by an audience? Or a
combination of both?
- Is there any consistency to be found in how long you take to finish one work?
- How do you usually go about finding financial support for the realization of your artworks/projects?
- Do you collaborate with other artists at all or do you predominantly work alone?
- Do you work with curators often? If so, what kind of role do curators play in the realization of your art?
- What does a typical day look like for you? Is there any specific (artistic) activity that takes up a lot of time
for you?
- Can you describe the process of realizing a specific work of art that is important to you in more detail?
- Why is this specific artwork important to you?
- What kind of materials do you like to work with?
- Why do you prefer these types of materials?
- Do these materials have any specific origin? If so, where do you find them, usually?
- How do you manipulate them and shape them into a work?
(5) Artistic practice: mediation
- Does your work requires or necessitates a certain way of mediating itself?
- How do you choose titles for your work? Are they vital to the understanding of the work?
- What kind of spaces do you work with?
- Is there a reason why you do not often work inside institutionalized spaces for contemporary art (i.e. white
cubes)?
- Do you conceive your work for a specific audience and/or space?
- Do you install your work yourself or do you do collaborate with other parties (i.e. curators, gallerists, etc.)?
- Do you usually exhibit your work for a specific period of time, or does that differ?
(6) Artistic intentions: Shelter #1
- Would you say Shelter #1 plays an important role in your oeuvre?
- What would you say this work is about?
- Do you differentiate between primary and secondary human needs?
- If so, what role do primary human needs play in this particular work?
- Do you intent to create (or show) with this work an alternative (artistic) community?
- Is conceptualizing and realizing alternative communities a way for you to critique systems in place in the
current society?
- If so, could you shortly describe what is wrong with these systems?

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- Do you consider your work to be political? Or anything other than political?
- Do you think utopia is possible? If so, what would it look like to you?
- How does your work differ from, for example, more socially oriented community projects?
- Do you consider your work as social critique?
- If so, could you say how your work relates to society at large?
(7) On the future
- Would you say there is a thematic or conceptual line to be found in your work?
- Do you recognize any form of development or progression taking place in your work? If so, what does it
look like?
- What are your artistic ambitions and/or goals for the near and distant future?
- Do you intent to achieve anything particular in the final year of the Rijksacademie? If so, could you
describe your goals, being part of this institution?
- What do you think of the new image of the artist as entrepeneur (as proposed by the current Dutch
government)?
- Do you see yourself living in The Netherlands for good?
- Where do you see yourself five to ten years from now (as an artist)?
(8) Finalizing remarks
- Do you associate yourself with or can you find yourself in any specific artistic publication?
- What kind of publication do you conceive this interview to be part of?
- How would you format it?
- Is there anything else you would like to address in relation to your work that we did not discuss yet?

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In conversation with Duan Rodi
Duan Rodi is a conceptual artist born in Belgrade, Serbia in 1975. Rodi moved to The Netherlands
seven years ago and graduated from the Rietveld Academie in 2010. Since then he has been affiliated to
the Rijksacademie voor Beeldende Kunsten in Amsterdam. He is currently working on a project where he
will install a solar panel roof on the monumental building of the Rijksacademie. He is also working on a
few other projects. These include, among others, the renovation of alternative cultural centre OT301 and
participation in a group exhibition on humour organized by De Appel, which will be discussed below.
What role did your childhood in Belgrade play in your personal development? And to what extent did it
shape you?
It definitely shaped me. I am what I am because of my childhood. When I left Serbia I really tried to
distance myself from my cultural background. I wanted to become an international artist, rather than an
artist talking about the events in Serbia. Most artists from my cultural background concentrate on the
political events in the 90s, but I wanted to do something different. With Shelter #1 and the works I am
doing now I do see a connection to the Russian constructivism I was brought up with. As eight year-old
kids we pretended to be pioneers with red capes. We promised each other to be good, to listen to our
parents and made plans to help the world. I was raised in a communist atmosphere. My grandfather was
an anarchist, a communist worker for an illegal printing press. He would make propaganda for the
communist cause. Now, much later, I concentrate on making functional art, which is something
Alexander Rodchenko favoured: do not make useless art, instead make chairs for the workers to sit on!
With these silk prints, for instance, I tried to help the artist community of Amsterdam with a letter of
support, which is also a form of resistance.
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So yes, my childhood really shaped me to be rebellious and to
stand for what I believe in.
Could you tell us something about the political instability in Serbia and how you experienced it? Did it
influence you?
The events in the 90s really destroyed my illusion about security by material worth and the thought that
things can be maintained. You could wake up one day and the banks would be closed, and there would be

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For the Three Artists Walk Into A Bar exhibition, organized by the Curatorial Programme of De Appel (2012),
Rodi made over 110 gold and silver silk prints of photographs in which a group of Dada artists and three Fluxus
artists are depicted laughing. These prints will be delivered to all 110 institutions in Amsterdam that are going to
affected by cultural budget cuts happening in The Netherlands.

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no money. Even if you had 100.000 euros in your account, it did not mean anything anymore, you were
equal to everyone else.
It is really important to me to work with artworks that deal with basic needs. For example, Permaculture
Garden appeals to these basic needs.
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With no access to money, it is important that I have a little garden
that provides me with food. In Serbia we survived all these years because the people from the village
provided us with home grown food. My focus on energy, food, and water is very much connected to all
the events taking place in Serbia in the 90s.
At what point did you start calling yourself and seeing yourself as an artist?
When I came to Amsterdam, I started with the Rietveld Academie. Here, I was considered a student. I
was not allowed to call myself an artist. They were very strict about that. The first time I called myself an
artist is related to an anecdote. I went snowboarding in France and I fell from a fifty-metre cliff. I broke
both of my legs. When the paramedics came to rescue me and asked me for my profession, I told them I
was a conceptual artist. This event changed me a lot. Since then, I call myself an artist.
Do you think that this reaction is related to the fact that it was the first thing coming to your mind?
I was not a conscious thing, it just happened, like an annunciation. Before that event, I was lost in my art
practice. I was dealing mostly with my identity and with myself. After this accident all these new
concepts came to my mind. I was more focussed and I finally knew what I wanted to do. Due to the
accident, I spent six months in a wheel chair, which gave me time to reflect on everything that I was
taught and everything that I experienced. When I came to Amsterdam I was not sure whether I was going
to finish art school. I applied to the art academy because I wanted to get away from Serbia. I remember a
work of Bruce Naumann in which I recognized myself, called True artists help the world by revealing
mystic truth. I saw this postcard and I thought to myself: yes, I have to reveal mystic truth. I was sure of
wanting to be an artist, but I was not sure if I would manage being an artist financially. It is a hard life.
Could you mention one of these events that influenced you, particularly in your practice?
Shelter #1 is connected to the moment when NATO bombed Belgrade in 1999. They destroyed the
electric installations of the country, so the whole nation was without electricity and running water for a
few days. Belgrade became a desert, with four million hungry people in the dark. It was really creepy. I

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Permaculture Garden was part of Shelter #1, a work in which artists were invited to find shelter in a big structure
made of wood and clay in front of the Rietveld Academie. The garden provided food.

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realised that being part of the system crippled me. So I decided to be more autonomous in the future.
Working on my art, this event is always in the back of my mind, I am never relaxed, and it motivates me
to be prepared for the next time such a thing happens.
Do you want to distance yourself from the system because it failed on you?
The things I am concentrating on right now stem from the potential collapse of any system, whatever this
system may be, democratic or socialist, or anything else, because all these systems are dependent on the
monetary system anyway. When this monetary system collapses, we are in a very vulnerable situation. I
do not want to criticise some old government of Serbia, or the current government of Serbia or The
Netherlands. I want to be constructive and produce some new kind of security with my work for myself
and for the people around me.
So would you say that in that sense your art is functional?
Yes.
In your childhood, did any positive events occur that are also recognizable in your work?
It must sound very dramatic when I talk about these things, but my childhood was really good. I had a
loving family and beautiful friends. When the bombing of Belgrade started, it may have been dramatic for
two days, but on the third day already we had a party at a friends place. We covered all the broken
windows and we played loud music. In these three months, the clubs in Belgrade were open and worked
non-stop organizing party after party. At night there were bombings, but in the morning birds were
singing and we would go to the river on our bikes, enjoying ourselves. I learned how to make the best out
of a situation. For example, right now, relating to the cultural cuts which will cause to 110 organisations
lose their subsidies, I am making these prints with smiling faces. I am trying to fight the evil with love
and laughter; it is the only way.
Would you consider any specific place home to you right now?
At this moment, I cannot say Amsterdam is my home, but OT301 is. That is the place where I live with
other people, my kind of little family. Serbia is my home country, but here I feel more at home.
To what extent is the idea of community important to you right now?
I am bit of a social addict; I need a lot of input from people, all the time. If I would live alone I would go
crazy. I need constant interaction. When I came here on my own the people of OT301 became my family.

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At the same time it is bigger than a family, it is a scene. I feel connected not only to those who live and
work there, but also to those who come there. I believe in sharing, giving, and receiving. For example,
during the making of Shelter #1, I wanted to build a four-metre high and a six-metre wide dome of mud. I
met the owner of the biggest factory of natural materials in The Netherlands. He gave me 12 tons of clay.
Then, I met people who were interested in building with clay who wanted to help me without asking
money in return. Many others, friends and strangers, offered to help as well. Many fellow students did not
understand this and asked who these people are and whether I am paying them. They even asked me if
this was some kind of sect
How do you relate yourself to other artists of similar background?
It is really comforting to know that Marina Abramovi made it as an internationally known artist. She is
from the same city as me and we share a similar background. It is good to know that at least one person
made it. If she can do it, I can do it. Apart from her, there are not many artists that I feel connected to.
Still, could you name one example of an artist that does similar things?
Rikrit Tiravinija. When I started with social events and actions, he was making soup at a gallery. I was
giving tequila to the public and declaring Mars in the gallery. Although his work was different, I
compared my work with his. I was interested in how he claimed his work to be art and I learnt from him
how to handle this problem. He opened up the way for me to do similar things. Alan Kaprov and his
happenings were also important. He was the first one to work with people in a way that was different
from body performance art. It is important for me that I am not the first one doing something.
So would you say you are not a pioneer, but you are inspired by specific artists that have started a certain
discourse in the realm of art that you would like to expand?
Yes, although I see them as my allies, I see them as people thinking in the same way. For example, the
renovation of OT301 is difficult to claim as my art project, because I am paid for it. However, I did not do
it for the money, I did it to improve the living conditions of the people living there. With the installation
of solar panels on the Rijksacademie, I could say that it is my sculpture with a conceptual value, but it is
also improving the building. Advisors ask me why this project can be seen as art. They ask me if it is
because the panels are in a special shape, but it is not about the aesthetics; it is about the functional aspect
of this solar panel roof.

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So would you say that your artistic practice is in that sense based on certain concepts and ideas and not
necessarily on a specific aesthetic value of the work itself?
Yes, but it is also really important that the art visually works. It is part of it. I am more interested in
realizing the idea. For the visual outcome I have to be stubborn and I have to go on to the point it works.
Shelter #1 was the outcome of research project, so is the structure itself the artwork or the entire process
around it?
The process was really important; the five months of building were part of my performance piece.
Everything was important, the dirty work, the conversations about why I was doing this, and the aid I
received, but the outcome is the artwork itself. In the end, the work was not a performance piece. It was a
sculpture.
How did your education influence your artistic practice? What things in it do you consider still valuable
now?
The education at Rietveld was very good. At some point I really had to struggle with my teachers, but
what does not kill me only makes me stronger. They were very hard on me and it was not easy to accept
certain things. Now, at the Rijksacademie, I know what I want to do and I know my references, so I do
not get offended anymore.
Which ideas or ideologies influence your work?
We once again come back to the idea of disaster, but that is really important in my work. When I hear
about a tsunami going on in Japan, I immediately think what can I do as an artist and what my role as an
artist is in a situation like that.
Do you feel a lot of responsibility when something like that happens?
Responsibility feels like a burden, it is rather something that connects me to a bold reality. In this culture,
you can get depressed because you cannot buy the car you want or your crush does not like you back.
Stupid things that are not that important can carry you away. When I broke both of my legs, I realised that
the only thing that counts is that I am alive. These extreme events inspire me to think about my role as an
artist within society.

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Are you trying to pop the artistic bubble some artists find themselves in?
Being in an art bubble is important to me, I am connected to the art community and I like to be in an art
bubble. I really like to talk about art inside this bubble, but I also feel the urge to act in society and make
art that really matters and changes things. The other day, I saw an art performance that made me feel
uncomfortable, because the work was really violent and sexual. It made me feel embarrassed too, because
what would someone who is not connected to the art world think of this work?
Do you see your different artworks as individual projects or do relate to each other?
They are interconnecting. Each project is separate, but there is a similar theme and concept behind them,
the concept is the same. For example, I consider the prints I am sending to the 110 organisations in
Amsterdam as promotion for the solar panel project. They both relate to the cultural budget cuts. The
prints are propaganda. In that way I see them as connected.
You use various types of artistic expression. Would you place yourself in one specific tradition of artistic
practice?
I am more connected to three-dimensional sculpture, which is also connected to installation. I am also
connected to performance art, social events and action. For example, the silkscreen prints are a two-
dimensional work, but they are also a conceptual work because of the idea behind it. I am going to roll
them up and seal them, which will transform them into a three-dimensional work. By delivering the prints
to certain addresses, the artwork becomes an action, a social event.
What constitutes a work of art for you?
For me, it is very important to be flexible. I start from a certain idea. Then, along the way, the idea
changes a lot. For example, these prints I am making now I had the idea to make an exhibition in the
corridors of OT301. I was going to do something related to historical figures in art history. Then I started
researching on the avant-garde movement, looking for figures that could inspire me to create some work
related to them. My idea was to call the exhibition En garde. Then my friend came and told me: you are
pacifist, you are always talking about peace, and now you want to create an exhibition called En garde?
This triggered me to find photos were people were laughing, so the work would not be as violent, I would
not be calling for a revolution. Then I received an email that De Appel is making a show on humour in
art. I contacted De Appel telling them I might have work that fits and that I would like to participate.
Now, in the context of an exhibition on humour, there is a big chance my prints would look like posters

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for the exhibition. How to deal with this? I decided that the prints are going to be in a right context in an
art institution, because it relates to artists and art spaces. However, it is not important for me that these
institutions mount the prints on their walls, the print only needs to be physically there. I listed all the
institutions that will no longer receive subsidies here in Amsterdam and I will deliver to each institution
one print.
So a work of art is a process of trial and error?
Yes, I try to avoid the problems and work my way around them.
Is your art object-based in a specific location and time, or are they concepts that come into being?
It depends on the project. For Shelter #1 it was really important that it was in front of the art academy,
because it was a shelter for artists, it referred to art being autonomous and sustainable. If I would not have
built it right in front of the academy, on some green patch, it could have possibly stayed there, but I really
wanted to build it on the parking lot, so it relates to the architecture of the building. I wanted the structure
of wood and mud to challenge this big iron and glass construction. It would not have been possible to
build this structure anywhere else.
Would you say that most of your artworks are location-based?
I am always aware of the context. For example, solar panels on the Rijksacademie are only important
right now. The project would not make sense if the academy would not have financial and existential
problems. If I would be commissioned to make a solar panel roof on a business building, I would have to
change the concept. So this project is very site-specific and time-specific. Also, this Saturday, the
collapse of the Dutch government totally changed the concept behind my prints, because I did not deliver
them yet. When I deliver them now, they could be read as the beginning of a political campaign.
Would a work like that make any sense in a gallery space? Does it need its context?
Yes. The work would only make sense in a gallery space as documentation, being part of a bigger action.
The print would be a way to relate to the action. It could not be an aesthetic work of art.
How do you usually go about finding financial support for your artworks?
My method is being stupid and careless about money, actually. I finance my projects with money I earn
from my other jobs as a video editor, subtitle translator, dj/vj, event organiser, barman, security guard,
and construction worker. To finance my art projects I basically take on everything what comes my way.

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With the prints, De Appel promised me 150 euros, and I spent 700 euros on the prints already. In the
future I might get the money back, but right now I am really passionate about this project and I will spend
what I have. If you would give me a hundred euros right now, I would just go and get wax for my prints.
Building Shelter #1 I spent so much money that I was not able to pay my rent for six months. It was
dramatic. The school helped me to apply for subsidies and I got some money intended for the project, that
I actually used to pay my rent. The idea is to apply for subsidies and organize crowd funding, but if I get
passionate about realizing an idea, I try to find a way even if that does not work.
You worked together with friends to realize Shelter #1. Are there other projects where you collaborated
with other artists or other people?
I collaborate with others a lot. I see these projects as my own work, but I would not be able to realize
them without the help of others. In this way, the people that helped me or inspired me are also a big part
of the artwork. Maybe these people will claim the work as their own, I do not mind if they do that, but
from my perspective it is my work and it relates to my other work. I have my concept and my idea behind
the project, so it is important for me to draw this line. It is not essential, however, that I did it myself.
Many other people were involved. They are an important part of the project and I will always mention
them.
You have done a lot of exhibitions too. Do you like to work with curators? If so, what is their role?
I see working with curators as collaboration. I am an artist and the curator is there to organize and
promote my work. The curator needs the work and I need the curator to expose my work. The only
problem is that sometimes the curator wants to take the role of the artist and interfere with the work.
In that sense, for you the role of the curator is a facilitating one?
Especially with group exhibitions my work is put in the context of other works by other artists. I have to
deal with this. When I have a clear idea of what I want to achieve with my work and there are some
compromises that I have to make, because I want to expose my work, I have to make sure my work is put
in the right context. For example, if I would be asked to participate with my solar panel project in some
ecological fair, my work would become ecological, which it is not. It is political, relating to Dutch
politics. So I would have to say no, because I cannot compromise in this direction, it would discredit the
work and put it in a wrong context.

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What does your life as an artist look like?
I have a studio in OT301. In the last year I transformed this space into a living space. I worked so much
on this space that it became part of my artistic practice, a project of its own. The studio here, at the
Rijksacademie, is more like an office space. It is clean, less personal, and allows me to work in peace. But
I work in both spaces. There is no clear distinction, although I try to bring all my materials to the space in
the Rijksacademie. I think about my art all the time, it is constant, no matter what space I am in or what
time of the day it is.
Do you constantly look for different ways to express yourself artistically?
I do not think I intentionally try to do different things, but I like to do different things. For example, it
would not be challenging for me to build another clay structure. I am done with it. Now, I am interested in
solar panels, and when I have worked with solar panels, I will probably work on something else. I am not
trying to run away from some pattern, but I am excited about learning new things.
So you would not say you are not an artist repeating the same pattern, making subtle variations along the
way?
My projects are very different, but they are all connected to the same ideas of sustainability, independence
of artist communities, artist survival, and so forth. Things are really constant on a conceptual level, but
the expressions are different. I cannot see myself move away from these concepts or from functional art at
the moment.
Are there specific types of materials that you find important to work with?
I do not prefer specific types of materials, but I am well aware of symbolic meanings of materials.
Everything is important. For example, my prints still have a white border. I am thinking about why they
do. If these white borders do not mean anything, I will have to cut them off. Whatever I use is important. I
do not limit myself to any type of material and I try to stay focused on what I want to express.
How do you choose your titles?
Titles are very problematic for me. I can spend so much time creating a work and then a title can really
put my work in a wrong corner. But I also have to call it something, of course. Usually I just make a work
and choose a title later. Sometimes I even change a title, after a few years. I called the project in which
declared the gallery space to be Mars Life on Mars. Later, I changed it to Exile, because it explains the
project really is about exile. The title helps putting the work in the right context for me.

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You use unconventional spaces for your artworks. What kind of spaces do you usually work with, and is
there a reason why your work is usually not exhibited in, for example, a white cube?
I do not really choose my spaces consciously. If I have an assignment, I react on that space. Whether that
is a white cube space or a bamboo forest in China.
Is it important that the work also enters a relation with the space?
Yes. The space influences the work, but also the context or environment that space is in. If I would show
anything in a gallery, it would probably be documentation. Say I would go for some installation work
inside a gallery space, then even a fire exit lamp will relate to my work, so I would have to think about
how to solve that problem without letting it interfere with my work. Working with a space is a matter of
solving things that are interfering with the concept, the idea, and the symbolic value. In other words, it is
a matter of interacting with the space.
Do you like working inside gallery spaces?
When I work inside a gallery space, I usually work with people. Here, the space is less important, and it is
more about the people that enter the gallery. The work does not relate to the space so much. For example,
I made Shelter #2, inviting artists to come to the gallery. It was an installation where I cooked for artists. I
put beds in the space too, so artists could eat, sleep and discuss in a gallery space for 24 hours.
For Shelter #1 and #2, is there a reason why you specifically created it for artists only?
With these works I am referring to the art community, because I am part of it, but also because I want to
communicate the importance of independence, autonomy, and sustainability of this community, question
the importance of art, and question the importance of our role as artists in society. In this way, it was an
internal project.
If I build a solar panel roof on the Rijksacademie, I am building it for this institution only, not for any
other institution. I would not say I necessarily exclude others, only that I direct my attention to this
particular institution. People that are not from the Rijksacademie or are not artists will see that an artist
from the Rijksacademie is building a solar panel roof for the Rijksacademie. In this way, they become an
audience, they are witnessing this project, so I do not think they are excluded.

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Could you say, briefly, what Shelter #1 is about?
It is about being an artist. Being an artist is not easy, because we are not paid by hours, working in our
studio. We are living in this world where we need money to survive. So we are dependent on money, but
we do not think about money when we are creating our work. We are creating work because we have an
urge to express ourselves, but this work does not necessarily connect to material worth.
Being an artist is underrated these days; it is not considered to be a real profession. Instead, it is
considered to be a leftist hobby. But if it is not a leftist hobby, what is it? It is difficult to define our role
in society. Because I do not have a clear answer to defend myself, I am questioning this role of artists in
society. This is important to me, because all the people around me are artists and I like to maintain the
world I am living in. In this context I created Shelter #1 for artists, in the year squatting became illegal.
Most of the artists in my school were either squatters or anti-squatters, all living in alternative living
conditions, and most of the galleries in which we were able to exhibit were squatted too. There is a
possibility for art to get suppressed here in The Netherlands, and many international artists will move
away, because it is not easy to be an artist here anymore. So I am trying to find ways to create shelters for
artists. Putting solar panels on the Rijksacademie is also a way of providing shelter, like renovating
OT301, and distributing these prints is a call to all artist shelters. In a way, all my work is providing
shelter.
You concentrate on primary human needs. Can you define a distinction between primary and secondary
human needs?
Primary human needs are the ones you need, or else you will die. Necessary things. I always thought
food, water, and energy are basic needs. Now, I am making these prints that are about artists laughing in a
social context. I have come to a point where I think social interaction is also a primary need. You can stay
alive without it, but are you going to stay sane?
Is the realization of these alternative artistic communities social critique? Are you trying to critique the
systems in place right now?
Coming from Serbia, things are more open in The Netherlands. When I think about creating artistic
communities and the importance of art, I both refer to past events and to the future here. Learning from
my own past, I can foresee coming events. In Serbia, there was a really active artistic scene in the 80s.
The flux was so strong there, things were really happening. With the collapse of the wall and the rise of
nationalism, a different culture was formed. The same is happening now in The Netherlands, now that
nationalism is gaining popularity. When we talk about the radical Islam, we give power to the radical

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Islam, but if we talk about good things, we give power to those things. When these fundamentalists get
stronger because we empower them, the Dutch society becomes anxious and we are creating conflict.
Both fundamentalism and its counter norm, the far right movement, are both based on hatred and conflict.
In these settings, the people who fight for peace are suffering. The war is not between Islamists and
nationalists, but between these two groups and other people, who just desire a peaceful life and want to
enjoy themselves. In Serbia my entire generation was dragged into conflict, making it really difficult for
us to express ourselves, because everything we said became political. When we would say something
against the president, we would be traitors, and considered in favor of Bosnian Muslims, for example. I
could not say, I love Croatians, they are my friends, because the conflict was already there and I would
be considered a traitor. In this climate, artistic expressions became a really important way of questioning
politics, keeping us sane and comforting us when we felt everything was lost. I believe that when art is
gone from culture, only insanity and conflict will rise.
So expressing yourself artistically is not necessarily a way critiquing the system, but a way of focusing on
the good things in society?
It is difficult to say good and bad. Not all art is good. I think it is important for art to be a form of social
critique, a reflection on society, a reflection on the spirit of time. So art is important as a critique and a
reflection.
Do you consider your work political?
Yes, although I do not only relate to politics, but to society and culture as well. So my work is more social
than political. But it is political, as well.
In relation to your work, especially in relation to Shelter #1 and #2, do you think utopia is possible?
For me utopia has a negative connotation. It is a dream. When someone tells me my work is utopian, to
me it seems like they do not trust me. I think utopia is naive. If someone has a dream about what our
world should be like, I would call it a dream, not necessarily a utopian dream.
So utopia does not play a role in your work?
I think you could say all my work is totally utopian and naive. I cannot change the world, but I can live in
my own reality. It is my right to do so. I think it is very good if everyone would try to live his or her
dreams and not just accept what is given to you, so you can create your own utopia.

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Do you believe in radically altering the system by overthrowing it or by changing it from within?
I think that the system has to be maintained, I do not believe in revolutions or chaos. I do not like violence
and I do not feel comfortable when the system gets shaken too much, although in some ways I like it too
when this happens. When the government collapsed last Saturday, on the one hand I felt happy that
something could be changed, but on the other hand I felt a bit insecure about what is going to happen
next. So I am not for radical changes and chaos. Instead, I believe in evolution, perhaps even in spiritual
evolution. Socrates was killed for challenging the system of the polis. He said there should not be rules
and regulations, because only you can decide what is good and what is wrong based on your own rational
thinking. All knowledge comes from experience. So if someone tells you, do not go there because you
will fall, you will learn that you should not go there because you will fall, but you will miss the
experience of falling. I really believe we come here to learn something. In that sense I agree with
Socrates. A mistake was made back then when he was persecuted. We are so deep in the system now.
Socrates said that when you kill someone or treat someone badly, your actions belong to ignorance.
Ignorance does not belong to the path of knowledge. It is stupidity. So if people would accept the path of
knowledge and some universal laws, all ignorance would be discredited and we would not have to build
prisons or surveillance cameras. But that, of course, is totally utopian.
We will see how it goes. Right now the art world gives me the opportunity to live my life in the way I
want to live it. Again, I do not believe in overthrowing the system, I believe in changing the values. Being
modest is totally discredited these days. Even though I am not talking about this so much in my work.
In relation to the lack of modesty today, what do you think of the current ideal artist as entrepreneur?
It is difficult to be an entrepreneur being an artist. It is like asking a Buddhist monk to make money out of
his meditation. He can give courses in meditation, but then he is not meditating. I think it is really
difficult for maybe seventy percent of the artists to think about money, because not all art is not about
money. You can use art to promote certain values, by creating a political campaign or shooting a music
video, for example, but when you create art promoting animal rights, you will not be paid for this. If art as
critique gets lost in this money-oriented culture, everything will be about money in the end. Art is a
cultural value, cultural capital. And cultural capital is not always connected to monetary values. I think it
is important that art is maintained. I understand there exists a gap between taxpayers and the image of the
autistic artist painting in his or her studio, I understand that the taxpayers say they do not benefit from
these people, but they do not benefit from soldiers in Afghanistan or Iraq either. I think it is better to have
artists painting than soldiers occupying countries and killing people. I think there is plenty of money. If
you have to cut on something, I think it is better to cut on violence and conflict than on art.

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Do you have any strategies to cope with these changes and to survive as an artist?
The more you suppress a movement, the stronger it becomes. I do not know what is going to happen now.
If things change in The Netherlands, maybe everyone will move to Berlin. People say Berlin is more
interesting nowadays anyway. If that happens, Amsterdam will become an unimportant city with
traditional festival music and only Dutch people around. The same happened to Belgrade. Maybe
Amsterdam will fall for a second and will get overtaken by mediocrity. But Amsterdam is a strong city.
Who knows what will happen. In any case, I will keep on going and connect with more people. My plan
is to do research on the solar panels, set up a good presentation and launch my idea in winter, find
financers in spring, and execute in summer.
On a final note, do you see yourself living in Amsterdam forever?
I really like The Netherlands and I like Dutch people. I feel comfortable here. The only things I miss here
are sun, sea, and nature. I would like to stay connected to The Netherlands, but I would really love to live
somewhere along the beach, with a big house, palm trees, bananas and monkeys.

This interview between Karianne van der Meij, Sacha Alexander Post and Duan Rodi took place in the
Rijksacademie voor Beeldende Kunsten in Amsterdam on Monday, 23 April 2012.