Objection and Deposition Involving FLDS Hobby Lobby Case

Jason D.
Haymore 13236
Haymore Law PC
11564 Gold Dust Drive
South Jordan, UT 84095
(p)801-438-4808
(f)801-438-4809
JHaymore@Haymorelaw.com
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR
THE DISTRICT OF UTAH CENTRAL DIVISION
THOMAS E. PEREZ, SECRETARY OF
LABOR, UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT
OF LABOR,
Plaintiff,

vs.

PARAGON CONTRACTORS
CORPORATION, BRIAN JESSOP, DALE
BARLOW; KEITH DUTSON; VERGEL
STEED; and CORPORATION OF THE
PRESIDING BISHOP OF THE
FUNDAMENTALIST CHURCH OF JESUS
CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS,

Defendants.

MOTION TO SUSTAIN OBJECTIONS TO
QUESTIONS POSED DURING
SUBPOENA TESTIMONY ON JULY 6,
2014, AND MEMORANDUM IN SUPPORT

Case No. 2:13CV00281 RJS

Honorable Magistrate Judge Furse

COMES NOW, Vergel Steed (Mr. Steed), by and through undersigned counsel, and
pursuant to the request of the court to brief the merits of the objections made during testimony
provided by Vergel Steed in response to a subpoena ad testificandum on January 6, 2014 and
hereby requests the court to sustain his objections to answering questions regarding the affairs
and organization of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints on the basis
that doing so would violate his First Amendment rights. Mr. Steed further requests an order
from the court limiting the Department to seek only information regarding his personal
knowledge of matters related to the pecan harvest.
BACKGROUND
The United States Department of Labor (the Department) is currently conducting an
administrative investigation of Paragon Contractors and the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-Day Saints for potential violations of child labor laws. In particular, the
Case 2:13-cv-00281-DS Document 73 Filed 01/27/14 Page 1 of 7
Department is investigating the involvement of child labor in a pecan harvest at the Southern
Utah Pecan Ranch in Hurricane, Utah conducted by Paragon Contractors along with some
alleged degree of assistance from the Church. See Exhibit 1, p. 1 lines 9-18. Mr. Steed, while not
under investigation, has been served with an administrative subpoena ad testificandum to appear
in his personal capacity (not on behalf of the Church) to answer certain questions about his
knowledge concerning the alleged violations. Mr. Steed appeared to provide his testimony under
oath on January 6, 2014.
During the proceeding on January 6, Mr. Steed testified that he is not familiar with the
Southern Utah Pecan Ranch, See Exhibit 1, p. 19-20 line 1, that he was not familiar with Paragon
Contractor involvement in the Pecan Harvest, See Exhibit 1, p. 20 lines 2-5, that neither he nor
his family participated in the harvest, See Exhibit 1, p. 20 lines 9-23, and that he did not have any
knowledge concerning Church members participation in the harvest, See Exhibit 1, p. 21 lines 4-
24. Mr. Steed was also shown a series of pictures of individuals performing the nut harvest and
testified that while the people in the photos appeared to be from Hildale, Utah he did not
recognize any of them in particular See Exhibit 1, p. 24-26. An audio recording of a message
from the office of the Bishop of the Church was played which concerned the pecan harvest and
Mr. Steed also testified that it was not his voice on the message and that he didnt know who the
voice was See Exhibit 1, p. 21-23.
In addition to inquiring about Mr. Steeds knowledge and involvement of the Pecan
Harvest, the Department sought to inquire concerning internal matters and organization of the
Church. See Exhibit 1, p. 41-54. Because Mr. Steed could not answer those questions without
violating his closely held religious beliefs he objected based on the rights secured to him under
the First Amendment.

THE FIRST AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE PROTECTS MR. STEED FROM THE
DEPARTMENTS INTRUSION UPON HIS RELIGIOUS BELIEFS AND PRACTICES

Mr. Steed is a Member of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
(the Church) and retains a closely held religious belief that requires him not to speak openly
about matters regarding the Church organization with anyone outside of his religious affiliation.
See Exhibit 2, Affidavit of Vergel Steed.
By seeking information from Mr. Steed concerning the internal affairs of the Church, the
Department seeks to compel disclosure of information in direct contradiction to the practice of
his sincerely held religious beliefs and in violation of the First Amendment protections of free
speech, free exercise of religion, and freedom of association.
Compelled disclosure of rights protected by the First Amendment has a profound
chilling effect upon the free exercise of those rights. Perry v Schwarzenegger, 591 F.3d 1147,
1156 (9
th
Cir. 2009); Buckley v. Valeo 424 U.S. 1, 64 (1976) ([W]e have repeatedly found that
compelled disclosure, in itself, can seriously infringe on privacy of association and belief
guaranteed by the First Amendment). Only those interests of the highest order and those not
otherwise served can overbalance legitimate claims to the free exercise of religion. Wisconsin v.
Yoder, 406 U.S.. 205, 215 (1972).
The Tenth Circuit (as well as a majority of federal circuits who have addressed this issue)
requires the party asserting a First Amendment Privilege to first make a prima facie showing that
the information sought by the government infringes on First Amendment rights. Then, upon a
prima facie showing the burden shifts to the Department who must pass a strict scrutiny test
which would require a showing of a compelling need for the information sought. In re First Nat.
Bank, Englewood, Colo., 701 F.2d 115, 118 (10th Cir. 1983). In re Motor Fuel Temperature
Sales Practices Litig., 641 F.3d 470, 488 (10th Cir. 2011).
1

1
The Ninth Circuit has articulated the test as a two part test requiring the movant to make a
prima facie showing of an arguable First Amendment infringement and for the government to
then show that the information sought is highly relevant to its claims and that the information
sought is not otherwise available. See Perry 591 F.3d at 1161.
MR. STEEDS PRIMA FACIE SHOWING: REQUIRING MR. STEED TO DISCLOSE
INFORMATION REGARDING THE INTERNAL AFFAIRS OF THE CHURCH
INFRINGES ON HIS FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS

While there is no bright line rule outlining the requirements necessary to establish a
prima facie showing of an arguable First Amendment infringement, it is clear that in this matter
the questions the Department of Labor is asking Mr. Steed would require him to give information
in direct contradiction to his closely held belief not to discuss Church affairs with people who are
not of his faith. See Exhibit 2, Affidavit of Vergel Steed. If he were to do so, it would drastically
alter his relationship with his religious leaders and could lead to being shunned by other Church
members. Id.
Additionally, compelling Mr. Steed to answer questions regarding the inner workings of
his Church would also have a chilling effect on others to participate, to associate, or to continue
to associate, in Church matters for fear that they will be forced to violate the tenants of their faith
and comply with a court order to answer questions in direct contradiction to their beliefs. Id.
Because of the direct nature in which the questions of the Department would violate Mr.
Steeds religious beliefs, and the chilling effect compelling disclosure would have on other
members association with the Church, Mr. Steed is clearly able to meet his prima facie burden of
showing an arguable First Amendment infringement.

THE DEPARTMENT CANNOT SHOW A COMPELLING NEED FOR THE
INFORMATION IT SEEKS

In order to meet its burden to compel the information for which it seeks, the Department
must show a compelling need. And only those interests of the highest order and those not
otherwise served can overbalance legitimate claims to the free exercise of religion. Wisconsin
v. Yoder, 406 U.S.. 205, 215 (1972).
Mr. Steed was subpoenaed in his individual capacity to provide testimony to the
Department. He has not appeared, and has not been asked to appear, on behalf of the Church to
provide testimony regarding the inner workings of the Church. The Department is investigating
potential violations of the child labor laws regarding a nut harvest conducted by Paragon
Contractors with some alleged type of involvement of the Church. Mr. Steed has testified to the
Department, under oath, that he had no individual or firsthand knowledge concerning the nut
harvest the Department is investigating or the involvement of the Church in the nut harvest. At
this point, the only information the Department is seeking which Mr. Steed may or may not have,
is information related to the internal affairs of the Church.
To be clear, the questions that Mr. Steed has objected to are nearly exclusively related to
the organization of the office of the Corporation of the Presiding Bishop or the Church. The
Department is seeking for Mr. Steed to provide information concerning whether or not certain
individuals still hold a title within the Church and what they do on behalf of the Church, whether
Mr. Steed holds a title in the Church or has volunteered for the Church, who keeps the records
for the Church, who the Church employs, who does the taxes for the Church, information
concerning the Churchs bank accounts, and questions regarding the internal communications of
the Church. See Exhibit 1, p. 41-54.
While it may be reasonably argued that the Department has some need for some of this
information to properly conduct their investigation, it cannot be argued that they have a
compelling need to obtain this information from Mr. Steed who would have to violate his
religious tenants in order to provide it to them. There is no reason why the Department could not
seek this information from the Church itself or from Paragon Contractors rather than to infringe
on the First Amendment rights of an individual.
Given that the Church itself and Paragon Contractors is the subject of the investigation
and is a more direct source for the information the Department is seeking, it cannot show that
they have a compelling interest in obtaining this information from Mr. Steed and no other
reasonable available way of finding what they seek. Therefore, it would be a clear violation of
Mr. Steeds First Amendment rights to be forced to produce this information.

CONCLUSION
The rights secured by the First Amendment are highly guarded and should only be
infringed upon when there is compelling need to do so, and no other way to fill the need exists.
Mr. Steed, and other members of the Church, have a closely held religious belief that requires
them to keep matters related to the internal affairs of the Church confidential. The Department
seeks to compel Mr. Steed to violate the terms of his religious beliefs and practices in order to
obtain information that could easily be obtained from a more direct source either the Church
itself or from Paragon Contractors whom they are investigating. Forcing Mr. Steed to answer
these questions would be a direct violation of his First Amendment rights to the Free Exercise of
Religion, Freedom of Speech, and Freedom of Association. It would also have a chilling effect
on the practice of religion by other Church members.
Because there is no real need (let alone a compelling need) for the Department to force
Mr. Steed to violate the tenants of his closely held religious beliefs, it is respectfully requested
that this court sustain Mr. Steeds Objections and order the Department to limit the information
sought from Mr. Steed to information regarding his personal knowledge of matters related to the
pecan harvest.

Dated this January 27, 2014

/s/ Jason D. Haymore
Jason D. Haymore
Attorney for Mr. Steed


CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE

I hereby certify that on this March 13, 2013, a true and correct copy
of the foregoing document was served by the method indicated below, to the
following:

Karen E Bobela
U.S. Department of Labor, Office of the
Solicitor
1244 Speer BLVD, Ste 515
Denver, Colorado 80204-3516
(X) Court Electronic Filing
System
( ) Hand Delivered
( ) Overnight Mail
( ) Facsimile

By __/s/ Jason D. Haymore

Page 1
Vergel Kay Steed 1/6/2014
801-983-2180
50 West Broadway, Suite 900, Salt Lake City, UT 84101
Page 1
801-983-2180
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF UTAH, CENTRAL DIVISION
THOMAS E. PEREZ, SECRETARY OF
LABOR, UNITED STATES DEPARTMENTCase No. 2:13CV00281-RJS
OF LABOR, Magistrate Judge Evelyn
J. Furse
Petitioner,
vs.
PARAGON CONTRACTORS
CORPORATION; BRIAN JESSOP; DALE
BARLOW; KEITH DUTSON; VERGEL
STEED; and CORPORATION OF THE
PRESIDING BISHOP OF THE
FUNDAMENTALIST CHURCH OF JESUS
CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS,
Respondents.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ADMINISTRATIVE SUBPOENA TESTIMONY PROCEEDING OF
VERGEL KAY STEED
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
TAKEN AT: U.S. FEDERAL COURT DISTRICT OF UTAH
350 South Main Street, Room 405
Salt Lake City, Utah 84101
DATE: Monday, January 6, 2014
TIME: 11:03 a.m.
REPORTER: Nancy A. Fullmer, RMR
Case 2:13-cv-00281-DS Document 73-1 Filed 01/27/14 Page 1 of 55
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1 APPEARANCES
2 For the Petitioner:
Karen E. Bobela
3 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF LABOR
OFFICE OF THE SOLICITOR
4 1244 Speer Boulevard, Suite 515
Denver, Colorado 80204-3516
5
6 For the Respondent Vergel Steed:
Jason D. Haymore
7 HAYMORE LAW
11564 Gold Dust Drive
8 South Jordan, Utah 84095
9 Also Present:
Joseph Doolin, Wage and Hour Division
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 VERGEL KAY STEED,
2 having been first duly sworn, was
3 examined and testified as follows:
4 BY MS. BOBELA:
5 Q. All right. Good morning, Mr. Steed.
6 A. Good morning.
7 (Discussion off the record.)
8 BY MS. BOBELA:
9 Q. My name is Karen Bobela. I'm an attorney
10 with the Office of the Solicitor, the Department
11 of Labor. I represent the Wage Hour Division of
12 the Department of Labor. And Wage Hour is in the
13 process of an investigation into child labor
14 allegations involving Paragon Contractors and the
15 FLDS Church. As part of that investigation, Wage
16 Hour subpoenaed your appearance here today to
17 answer questions and just gather basic
18 information.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. So it's my opportunity to ask questions.
21 This is not a formal deposition. It's simply an
22 administrative subpoena testimony proceeding. If
23 you don't understand any of my questions, I'm
24 happy to rephrase them. Just let me know. And we
25 need to speak one at a time so the court reporter
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1 can get a clear record.
2 Can you please state and spell your first
3 and last name.
4 A. My name is Vergel, V-E-R-G-E-L, Steed,
5 S-T-E-E-D.
6 Q. Do you have a middle name?
7 A. Kay, K-A-Y.
8 Q. What is your date of birth?
9 A. 8-22-69.
10 Q. What is your physical address?
11 A. 475 East Jessop Avenue, Hildale, Utah.
12 Q. And the zip code?
13 A. 84784.
14 Q. How long have you lived at that address?
15 A. Is that relevant to what we're
16 discussing?
17 Q. It is. And it's relevant because we have
18 attempted to serve multiple subpoenas at the
19 address we believe you've resided at and whether
20 or not--how long you've lived at this address or
21 the address we believe you've lived at is relevant
22 to these proceedings.
23 (Pause in proceedings.)
24 BY MS. BOBELA:
25 Q. And I don't mean--this isn't a
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1 contentious proceeding. It really is just a basic
2 information gathering. Because we believe you
3 have knowledge relevant to the information, we
4 would like to be able to ask you questions and we
5 would like to be able to contact you at a later
6 date. There's no objections that can be made.
7 We're just getting started, so I would appreciate
8 your cooperation here.
9 A. I would love to cooperate. I'm kind of a
10 private kind of fellow. I don't really like
11 giving that information out. How about I give you
12 my phone number?
13 Q. That will be my next question. First, I
14 need to know how long you've lived at 475 East
15 Jessop Avenue.
16 A. Couple months.
17 Q. So it's January 6th today. Did you move
18 in to the 475 East Jessop Avenue in--before
19 Thanksgiving?
20 A. I don't remember.
21 Q. What season was it when you moved to that
22 address? And you are under oath. I would
23 appreciate your cooperation. I'm just asking how
24 long you've lived at this address. And if I need
25 to solicit the judge's involvement this early on,
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1 I'm happy to do so and ask her to compel and
2 answer these questions.
3 THE WITNESS: Do I have any rights?
4 MR. HAYMORE: I have no objections to the
5 question she's asking.
6 THE WITNESS: I guess probably in
7 November.
8 BY MS. BOBELA:
9 Q. Where did you live before 475 East Jessop
10 Avenue?
11 A. I have lived at 550 North Oak, Colorado
12 City, Arizona.
13 Q. When did you last live at that address?
14 A. I don't keep real close track of these
15 things. I'm sorry.
16 Q. Did you live at that address before you
17 moved into the 475 East Jessop Avenue address?
18 A. Before that, yes.
19 Q. Did you live anywhere in between those
20 two addresses?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Where did you live between those
23 two addresses?
24 A. I don't know the address.
25 Q. Was it in Hildale or Colorado City?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you live with friends or family?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Which? Let me ask the question a
5 different way. When did you move out of the 550
6 North Oak address?
8 Q. Was it in the summer?
10 Q. Was it two years ago? Do you remember an
11 approximation?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Have you ever been convicted of a felony?
14 A. No, ma'am.
15 Q. Have you been convicted of a misdemeanor?
16 A. Speeding. I mean, no, other than maybe
17 traffic.
18 Q. Have you been a party to a civil lawsuit?
19 MR. HAYMORE: Do you understand the
20 question?
21 THE WITNESS: I do. I don't understand
22 how it pertains.
23 MR. HAYMORE: Can we take a brief recess?
24 MS. BOBELA: Yes.
25 MR. HAYMORE: I realize it's early, but
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1 you just give us a moment.
2 Why don't you follow me and we'll chat
3 about this a second.
4 (Recess taken.)
5 BY MS. BOBELA:
6 Q. We are back on the record after counsel
7 and his client took a short break. I just want to
8 remind you we do have another witness coming at
9 1:00 p.m. and I hope to have your testimony done
10 before that time, but your cooperation will
11 facilitate us being able to do that. Otherwise,
12 I'm going to have to ask you to come back at
13 another date and time. So, of course, I want you
14 to take your time answering the questions, but
15 these are rudimentary questions about your address
16 so I would just ask you to help move this along so
17 we can get you out of here in a timely manner?
18 I think my last question was whether
19 you've ever been a party to a civil action or
20 civil lawsuit.
21 A. No.
22 Q. Before I forget, what is your current
23 phone number?
24 A. (435) 212-0441.
25 Q. Is that a cellphone?
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1 A. It is.
2 Q. How long have you had that number?
3 A. Years.
4 Q. Since taking a break, have you refreshed
5 your memory at all as to when you might have moved
6 out of the 550 North Oak address?
7 A. I would say between eight months and a
8 year ago. Somewhere around there.
9 Q. Where did you live prior to the 550 North
10 Oak address?
11 A. A lot of different places. Cedar City,
12 Utah.
13 Q. Okay. How long did you reside at the 550
14 North Oak address?
15 A. A couple of years.
16 Q. And when you moved out of the 550 North
17 Oak address eight months to a year ago, where did
18 you move to?
19 A. I don't know the address.
20 Q. Okay. How many--where was that location?
21 A. Colorado City.
22 Q. And were you at that--whatever address
23 that was, were you at that one address prior to
24 moving to the 475 East Jessop Avenue address?
25 A. Yes, I believe so.
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1 MR. HAYMORE: Would you mind speaking
2 just a little louder? I'm having trouble hearing
3 some of your responses. I would assume others
4 might be, too. Thank you.
5 BY MS. BOBELA:
6 Q. Have you ever been deposed before?
7 A. No, I have not.
8 Q. Have you ever testified in court?
9 A. No, I have not.
10 Q. What is your educational background?
11 A. I hold a master's--a bachelor's degree,
12 excuse me, in education.
13 Q. Where did you obtain that degree?
14 A. Southern Utah University.
15 Q. What year?
16 A. '92.
17 Q. Are you currently employed?
18 A. Self-employed.
19 Q. What do you do?
20 A. Handyman sort of things. Some
21 construction estimating, that sort of thing.
22 Q. Who do you do construction estimating
23 for?
24 A. Various. I've done some for Paragon.
25 Q. That's Paragon Contractors Corporation?
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1 A. Yes, ma'am.
2 Q. How long have you been self-employed as a
3 handyman, slash, construction estimator?
4 A. Five years or so, I guess.
5 Q. What did you do prior?
6 A. I've taught school.
7 Q. Where did you teach?
8 A. Colorado City Unified and some private.
9 Q. Have you ever taught at Foothill School?
10 A. I don't know what--there's a building
11 called Foothill School Building that I have taught
12 in, yes.
13 Q. Where is Foothill School Building?
14 A. Colorado City, Arizona.
15 Q. Do you know the address?
16 A. Not exactly, but it's Richards Street and
17 Arizona Avenue.
18 Q. Is Foothill School a private school?
19 A. It's just a school building. It has been
20 used by the public school. It has been used by
21 the private schools.
22 Q. When is the last time you taught at the
23 Foothill School Building?
24 A. I currently teach my children there.
25 Q. Is it a home school setting?
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1 A. Yes, ma'am.
2 Q. Are you employed by the Corporation of
3 the Presiding Bishop of the Church of the
4 Fundamentalist Latter-Day Saints?
5 A. I feel that that's a religious question
6 and I should not answer.
7 Q. Whether or not you are employed by the
8 Corporation?
9 A. Yes, ma'am.
10 MS. BOBELA: Counsel?
11 MR. HAYMORE: I believe he--the question
12 infringes on his free exercise religion and he
13 doesn't want to answer that question.
14 MS. BOBELA: I'll just keep a list of
15 questions that we can get the judge's involvement
16 on down the road.
17 MR. HAYMORE: Okay.
18 BY MS. BOBELA:
19 Q. Have you ever been employed by Paragon
20 Contractors Corporation?
21 A. I've done some--not direct
22 employment--but some contract work for them.
23 Q. In other words, do you mean independent
24 contractor for them?
25 A. I've done some construction estimating
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1 for them.
2 Q. Do they pay you as an employee or do they
3 give you a 1099?
4 A. They gave me a 1099.
5 Q. In 2013, how many hours would you say you
6 worked for Paragon Contractors?
7 A. I'm not sure. It's not an hourly thing.
8 It's more of a per, you know, estimator's plan or
9 whatever so it's not based on hours.
10 Q. How many jobs do you think you estimated
11 for them in 2013?
12 A. Three or four, I guess.
13 Q. And how much time would each job take you
14 approximately?
15 A. It just varies by what it is.
16 Q. Do you know Brian Jessop?
17 A. I know of him, yes. I've met him.
18 Q. Have you worked with him in the context
19 of doing job estimates for Paragon?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You are aware that the Department of
22 Labor, the Wage Hour Division, attempted to serve
23 a subpoena ad testificandum and subpoena duces
24 tecum to you?
25 A. I am aware of that, yes.
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1 Q. Did you ever receive those subpoenas?
2 A. No. I don't believe I did.
3 Q. How did you learn of them?
4 A. Someone at Paragon told me that there was
5 an arrest warrant for my--a warrant for my arrest.
6 Q. And that's the first time you learned of
7 the subpoenas?
8 A. I knew of some person coming to the home
9 where I lived and then leaving papers.
10 Q. And that would have been--there was a
11 Wage Hour investigator that attempted to serve you
12 at the 550 North Oak address. When did you learn
13 of that attempted service?
14 A. I learned that day that there had been
15 someone there.
16 Q. Did you contact someone at that house and
17 tell them to refuse service?
18 A. Am I under investigation?
19 Q. This is an investigation of Paragon
20 Contractors, as I said, for Wage Hour--for Wage
21 Hour Fair Labor Standards Act violations, that you
22 are a potential witness. You've been subpoenaed
23 for testimony and Wage Hour investigators have
24 attempted to serve papers to you. So the question
25 is relevant to this action.
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1 A. I don't feel to answer the question.
2 Q. On what basis? Is there a legal
3 objection?
4 MR. HAYMORE: I think the only legal
5 objection I would interject at this point is on
6 relevance. I realize that you served him a
7 subpoena. I realize he has not responded in the
8 way the Department of Labor would have like him
9 to. But he's here now trying to offer testimony,
10 trying to cooperate, so I would ask that we move
11 to the real reason you were looking for the
12 subpoena in the first place.
13 BY MS. BOBELA:
14 Q. Sure. There is a chance that Wage Hour
15 will need your testimony in the future down the
16 road. And if there is a similar refusal to
17 cooperate, I would like to document a prior
18 refusal to cooperate on the record. And I'm
19 working on the assumption that you refused to
20 cooperate and accept the first subpoena. So I'm
21 trying to flush that out to see whether you
22 received the subpoena, when you became aware of
23 the subpoena, and how you responded once you
24 became aware of the subpoena.
25 A. I'm here with a lawyer today. I think
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1 that's the answer to that.
2 Q. Okay. Is it safe to assume that you
3 avoided--you intentionally avoided the first
4 subpoena that Wage Hour served to you?
5 MR. HAYMORE: I'm going to object to that
6 question.
7 BY MS. BOBELA:
8 Q. You still have to answer the question.
9 A. I don't feel that I do.
10 Q. Did you avoid the first subpoena that was
11 served to you?
12 A. I don't feel to answer that question.
13 Q. Okay. I'll save that one for the judge,
14 as well.
15 Who at Paragon made you aware of the
16 bench warrant for your arrest?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Was it Brian Jessop?
19 A. I said I don't know.
20 Q. Who could it have been? Who do you
21 usually talk to at Paragon?
22 A. There's several office people there that
23 I see when I stop by from time to time.
24 Q. After the subpoenas were served at the
25 550 North Oak address, did you ever receive them?
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1 Did you look at them?
2 A. No, ma'am.
3 Q. Did anyone at that--at the residence tell
4 you about them?
5 A. That there had been some papers dropped
6 off, yes.
7 Q. But she never--he or she never gave those
8 papers to you?
9 A. No.
10 Q. And you never asked for them?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you live at 550 North Oak at the
13 time?
14 A. Yes, I believe so.
15 Q. Wage Hour also attempted to serve you at
16 the Corporation of the Presiding Bishop at the
17 1020 West Utah Avenue address. Are you familiar
18 with that location?
19 A. I can drive there.
20 Q. Have you been to the Corporation?
21 A. I suppose I've been to that address, yes.
22 Q. What is at that address?
23 A. I think you could find that out as easily
24 as I could. I'm not sure.
25 Q. Well, I know it as the address of the
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1 Corporation of the Presiding Bishop. Are there
2 any other--is there other businesses at that
3 address?
4 A. I know it as a business address. Yes,
5 there's a business there.
6 Q. And is that business the Corporation of
7 the Presiding Bishop?
8 A. I know it as a different business.
9 Q. What other business?
10 A. There's a print shop there I've gone for
11 copies and such.
12 Q. Is the Corporation of the Presiding
13 Bishop also located there?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. Have you been to that address for any
16 other reason other than going to the print shop?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Were you ever made aware that subpoenas
19 were served to you at the 1020 West Utah Avenue
20 address as well?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Are you a member of the FLDS Church?
23 A. Is that relevant to Wage Hour?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. I don't feel to answer that.
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1 Q. Are you going to refuse to answer that?
2 A. Yes, ma'am.
3 Q. Do you hold any titles in the FLDS
4 Church?
5 MR. HAYMORE: I'm going to object to that
6 question on the basis that it violates his free
7 exercise of religion.
8 BY MS. BOBELA:
9 Q. So is that also a refusal to answer?
10 A. Yes, ma'am.
11 MR. HAYMORE: Sorry, could you repeat the
12 question so I can get it down? I'm trying to keep
13 my list of questions, too.
14 MS. BOBELA: Oh, sure. Whether he holds
15 any titles in the FLDS Church.
16 MR. HAYMORE: Okay. Just a minute.
17 Okay.
18 BY MS. BOBELA:
19 Q. And before I waste time here, are you
20 going to refuse to answer any questions about the
21 Corporation of the Presiding Bishop of the FLDS
22 Church?
23 A. Yes, ma'am.
24 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with the Southern
25 Utah Pecan Ranch?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Are you familiar with Paragon
3 Contractors' involvement with the pecan harvest in
4 Hildale, Utah?
5 A. I'm not.
6 Q. You have no knowledge of Paragon
7 Contractors engaging in a pecan harvest?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Have you ever participated in pecan
10 harvests in Hildale, Utah?
11 A. I have harvested pecans.
12 Q. Where?
13 A. From my very youth in Hurricane, Utah.
14 Q. What ranch was that at?
15 A. No ranches. Just residences.
16 Q. And I think I misspoke earlier when I
17 said that the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch was in
18 Hildale, Utah. I meant Hurricane, Utah. Does
19 that change any of the answers to your questions?
20 A. No. I'm not familiar with them.
21 Q. Okay. Have any of your children
22 participated in pecan harvests in Hurricane, Utah?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Have you ever received voice mails from
25 the bishop's office?
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1 A. I'll stand on the First Amendment.
2 Q. Is that a refusal to answer the question?
3 A. Yes, ma'am.
4 Q. Do you have any knowledge about
5 church--the FLDS church members participating in
6 pecan harvests in Hurricane, Utah?
7 A. No. I know that some have. I mean, I
8 have harvested nuts in Hurricane, Utah. But I've
9 seen other people there.
10 Q. How recent?
11 A. How recently have I harvested?
12 Q. Uh-huh.
13 A. Oh, I guess 12, 15 years ago.
14 Q. 12 or 15 years ago?
15 A. Yes, ma'am.
16 Q. Do you have any knowledge of the FLDS
17 church members harvesting pecans in the last five
18 years in Hurricane, Utah?
19 A. I'm sure that some have, but I'm not
20 familiar with them.
21 Q. On what basis do you believe that some
22 have?
23 A. That's something that's been common from
24 our community over the years.
25 Q. I'm going to play a voice recording and
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1 ask a few questions about that so give me one
2 minute to set that up.
3 (Audio recording is playing.)
4 BY MS. BOBELA:
5 Q. Have you ever heard this message before?
6 A. Yes, ma'am.
7 Q. When?
8 A. Jason played it to me a few weeks ago.
9 Q. Your attorney?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is that the first time you had heard the
12 message?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. You're not sure if you ever heard this
15 message prior to your attorney playing it for you
16 a couple weeks ago?
17 A. I'm not.
18 Q. Do you receive messages like this?
19 A. I'm going to object on--I'm going to not
20 answer that question.
21 Q. Okay. Do you know whose voice that is on
22 the message?
23 A. I don't.
24 Q. Is it your voice?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. Are you certain that you do not know
2 whose voice it is or are you refusing to answer
3 the question of whose voice it is? And you are
4 under oath.
5 A. I don't know whose voice it is.
6 Q. Did your children meet at the Foothill
7 School after this message was sent out to
8 participate in that harvest?
9 A. Reword the question.
10 Q. Did your children meet at the Foothill
11 School in accordance with that message to
12 participate in the nut harvest?
13 MR. HAYMORE: I'm going to object only on
14 the basis that that question's been asked and
15 answered already once, but you do need to answer
16 it again.
17 THE WITNESS: I did answer the question.
18 No.
19 BY MS. BOBELA:
20 Q. Do you know anything about the
21 15-passenger vans that are referred to in the
22 voice message?
23 A. I know what a 15-passenger van is.
24 Q. Do you know whether the bishop's office
25 owns any 15-passenger vans?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. What is the Foothill School affiliation
3 with the FLDS Church?
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. Do you know what bishop's office this
6 message came from?
7 A. I don't.
8 Q. I'm going to hand you a stack of
9 photographs and ask you to flip through and let me
10 know if you recognize any of the individuals in
11 these pictures.
12 MR. HAYMORE: Do you need them kept in a
13 certain order?
14 MS. BOBELA: No.
16 (Witness looking at photographs.)
17 THE WITNESS: I don't.
18 BY MS. BOBELA:
19 Q. Okay. There's a bunch of photos. I
20 would ask you to go through all of them.
21 A. I thought you were in a hurry. Sorry.
22 MR. HAYMORE: Take your time and make
23 sure you're sure.
24 THE WITNESS: Familiar. I don't know
25 that I could name anyone particularly.
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1 BY MS. BOBELA:
2 Q. Why would you say familiar and not be
3 able to name any of them?
4 A. They're a peculiar people. These
5 unrecognizable as being from the City of Hildale.
6 Q. But you do not know any of the
7 individuals photographed in those pictures?
8 A. I don't recognize any of them, no.
9 Q. Here's another stack. Is that you
10 driving the vehicle in the first photograph shown
11 here?
12 A. No. I've never driven that kind of
13 vehicle.
14 Q. If you can flip through that stack, as
15 well, and let me know if you recognize anybody in
16 those photographs.
17 MR. HAYMORE: Are these photographs
18 marked as exhibits at all?
19 MS. BOBELA: No. They will be if he
20 recognizes anybody.
21 THE WITNESS: I couldn't name any of
22 those, no.
23 BY MS. BOBELA:
24 Q. I'm going to hand you another picture.
25 Have you ever seen this individual before in this
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1 photograph in the blue shirt?
2 A. Ever is a long time. I don't recognize
3 him.
4 Q. I'm sorry, what was your answer?
5 A. Ever is a long time. I can't say that I
6 haven't seen him. I don't recognize him.
7 MR. HAYMORE: Again, I do have a slight
8 hearing loss so if you could just talk a little
9 bit louder. I'm not picking up all your responses
10 either.
12 MS. BOBELA: Okay. Well, we'll have
13 to--we'll just have to wait an hour. Maybe we
14 could take a break for an hour because I--in order
15 for me to ask the majority of my questions, they
16 relate to the Corporation of the Presiding Bishop,
17 whether or not Mr. Steed has been employed or
18 volunteered for the Corporation, are there members
19 of the Corporation, questions about the voice
20 mail. He's refused to answer all questions
21 related to the Corporation. And that's what I
22 would like to get the judge's ruling on whether or
23 not there's a--
24 MR. HAYMORE: Can we go off the record
25 for just a moment to discuss this a little bit?
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1 MS. BOBELA: Okay.
2 MR. HAYMORE: Thank you.
3 (Recess taken.)
4 MS. BOBELA: Counsel has taken another
5 break with his client, Vergel Steed, and they have
6 come back and asserted the First Amendment
7 privilege to questions regarding Mr. Steed's
8 involvement or employment with the Corporation of
9 the Presiding Bishop of the Church of the
10 Fundamentalist Latter-Day Saints.
11 He has refused to answer questions about
12 prior service of subpoenas from Wage Hour on him
13 at the 550 North Oak Street address in Colorado
14 City. He has refused to answer questions
15 regarding his affiliation with the FLDS Church and
16 whether or not he holds any titles in the church.
18 the functions and inner workings of the
19 Corporation of the Presiding Bishop, such as who
20 the records custodian is, how records are
21 maintained, actually, any and all questions
22 whatsoever about the workings of the church.
23 And he has refused to answer questions
24 about the church's involvement with the pecan
25 harvest at the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch. So
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1 we--as well as any questions regarding voice mail
2 messages from the bishop's office that have been
3 distributed to FLDS members.
4 We are going to wait for the judge to
5 return from lunch and raise this issue with the
6 judge and I will move to compel answers to the
7 questions posed.
8 Do you want to add anything to the
9 record?
10 MR. HAYMORE: No.
11 (Recess taken.)
12 MS. BOBELA: This is Karen Bobela on
13 behalf of the Secretary. We have asked for
14 Magistrate Furse's involvement. The current
15 witness, Vergel Steed, has refused to answer
16 questions regarding his previous employment with
17 the FLDS Church, the Corporation of the Presiding
18 Bishop of the Church of the Fundamentalist
19 Latter-Day Saints, which is referred to as the
20 Corporation in these proceedings.
21 He's refused to answer questions
22 regarding Wage Hour's efforts to serve him
23 previously at an address in Colorado City,
24 Arizona. He has refused to answer questions based
25 on his membership and affiliation with the
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1 Corporation, whether he holds any titles with the
2 Corporation or any titles in the FLDS Church.
3 He has refused to answer questions
4 regarding the functions and workings of the
5 Corporation, such as document retention,
6 administrative activities within the church, the
7 church's methods of communication.
9 the Corporation's relationship with the pecan
10 harvest, which is the basis of Wage Hour's
11 investigation. Any and all questions regarding
12 the church or his affiliation of the church has
13 been refused.
14 I think the next witness is here. Hang
15 tight real quick.
16 THE COURT: Sure.
17 MS. BOBELA: It is the Secretary's
18 position that the witness is in contempt of the
19 Court's order to appear today and answer questions
20 relevant to Wage Hour's investigation. We ask
21 that the Court hold the witness in civil contempt
22 and impose a penalty of a thousand dollars a day
23 until he agrees to comply and consider
24 incarceration until he agrees to answer the
25 questions as a civil penalty for civil contempt.
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1 We would also ask that the Secretary's
2 travel costs be reimbursed for coming here today
3 and the witness's refusal to answer questions
4 equates to a waste of time and government expense.
5 And we would ask that he be compelled to answer
6 questions that are relevant to a legitimate
7 investigation.
8 As far as I understand it, the witness
9 has asserted his First Amendment right. The legal
10 argument or the basis of the First Amendment
11 right, his refusal to answer questions, has not
12 been flushed out. And the Secretary contends it
13 would not apply to the questions being asked. But
14 I'm happy to address that further on the Court's
15 inquiry.
16 THE COURT: Okay. And any response?
17 MR. HAYMORE: Yeah, a couple of things.
18 One, my client is here today. He's trying to walk
19 a very fine line. He has very closely held
20 religious beliefs that require him to hold some
21 things in very strict confidentiality.
22 Our objections to this point have been
23 based on First Amendment Free Exercise of
24 Religion. In particular, he has a closely held
25 religious belief that requires him not to speak
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1 about the affairs of the church, about individuals
2 involved with the church, or his involvement to a
3 certain degree.
4 And the First Amendment objection that
5 we're raising requires the government to show that
6 they have more of an interest in obtaining this
7 information than my client has in his First
8 Amendment rights. And in this scenario, quite to
9 the point, he's here today faced with the decision
10 to adhere to his closely held religious beliefs or
11 to answer the questions of the Department of
12 Labor. He's chosen to raise the objection and to
13 hold to his First Amendment rights. And we would
14 ask that the Court would sustain those insofar as
15 his beliefs would require him to do so.
16 THE COURT: Okay.
17 MS. BOBELA: Yes, thank you. I think the
18 Court has been previously briefed as to the nature
19 of this investigation--
20 THE COURT: Yes.
21 MS. BOBELA: --that Wage Hour has brought
22 authority to investigate. This is an
23 investigation involving child labor activities in
24 violation of the FLSA. There is an enormous
25 interest in the government to protect the welfare
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1 of children who have been pulled out of school to
2 work without pay in violation of the FLSA. I
3 think that that interest is far greater than this
4 individual's refusal to cooperate with the
5 investigation and answer questions.
6 Part of the investigation is whether the
7 Corporation is an employer. And to the extent the
8 Corporation is an employer, there are exceptions
9 to any First Amendment protections that would
10 apply to whether or not they fall under the
11 category of employer under the FLSA. And if they
12 do, we are absolutely entitled to inquire as to
13 their relationship as an employer to the employees
14 who are working at the pecan harvest and the
15 children who are working outside of school hours
16 in violation of the FLSA.
17 We have reason to believe that this
18 witness has information about the pecan harvest,
19 the church's relationship with the pecan harvest,
20 the church's affiliation with Paragon, the--all
21 the information that is absolutely relevant and
22 critical to this investigation.
23 Should every--every individual in the
24 church, and specifically who works for or is
25 related to the Corporation, refuse to answer
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1 questions, that would exhaust the government's
2 ability to do its investigation and obtain the
3 information relevant to potential FLSA violations.
4 So I think the government's interest in protecting
5 welfare of these children investigating child
6 labor violations far outweighs this individual's
7 interest in refusing to answer questions that
8 would benefit the church and prejudice the
9 government in its legitimate investigation.
10 THE COURT: Now, could you just remind
11 me, is--has Mr. Steed--is he here in his
12 individual capacity or is he here as a
13 representative of the church?
14 MS. BOBELA: He is here in his individual
15 capacity. And for the purpose of inquiring what
16 his relationship with the church is, upon
17 information and belief Mr. Steed is a secretary of
18 sorts, holds some administrative office within the
19 church and would have information relevant to any
20 records and documents maintained by the church,
21 information relevant to a voice mail that we've
22 obtained that was distributed to all church
23 members that organized child labor to begin with,
24 that information is fundamental to Wage Hour's
25 investigation in establishing who the individuals
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1 are that were working, what their ages were, who
2 their employer is, and so forth.
3 THE COURT: I--I am--I have had some
4 involvement with this case and to understanding
5 the scope of the investigation and the authority
6 that the government has in this situation, but I
7 haven't thought about it in the context of the
8 First Amendment position. And so I appreciate the
9 argument today, but I think it would help the
10 Court if I could have some briefing on that issue.
11 And just to--I think it would probably make sense
12 to actually have you folks do a first brief and
13 then have a reply from the government. What time
14 frame would you be able to respond--or to put it
15 together?
16 MR. HAYMORE: My work for the next week
17 is difficult, but this is a priority matter, so
18 14 days would be plenty. I think I could get to
19 it in that time frame.
20 THE COURT: All right. Does that present
21 any particular difficulty for the government?
22 MS. BOBELA: It does not, Your Honor.
23 The only issue I would raise is that we have
24 attempted to subpoena Mr. Steed since March. We
25 have served numerous subpoenas to his residence
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1 that he testified today was his residence where
2 the subpoenas were served. He obtained the
3 subpoenas. He was aware of the subpoenas. He
4 avoided them intentionally.
5 MR. HAYMORE: I'm going to object to
6 that. There wasn't any testimony that he avoided
7 them intentionally.
8 MS. BOBELA: Okay. There was testimony
9 that the subpoenas were served to the address
10 where Mr. Steed resides. He actually refused to
11 answer a series of questions related to that
12 service, but it is the government's position that
13 he has avoided service at all cost. And it was
14 not until we obtained a bench warrant for his
15 arrest, that counsel was here and Mr. Steed agreed
16 to appear here to testify today.
17 So there's some concern from the
18 government about his willingness to cooperate or
19 appear at a later date and time. So I would ask
20 the Court to at least consider imposing sanctions
21 or penalties of sorts that would provide an
22 incentive for Mr. Steed to return and appear at a
23 later date.
24 THE COURT: Well, I'm certainly going to
25 consider that. That's part of what you asked for
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1 already. And, obviously, at this point, if
2 Mr. Steed's lawyer were not to present an answer,
3 then the Court would have to rule on what isn't
4 part of it. So I think I'll hold off on granting
5 any sort of sanctions until I have a chance to
6 rule on the whole thing.
7 But I would impress upon you, and I'm
8 sure your counsel already has, the importance of
9 cooperating with the government's subpoena and any
10 court orders and not avoiding service, that that
11 is the basic requirements here and failure to do
12 so can result in an arrest and it can result in
13 jail time. And as requested by the government in
14 that, if you fail to answer questions that do not
15 have a basis not to answer, you can be put in jail
16 until you do answer those questions. So I just
17 want to make sure you understand that. I'm sure
18 your lawyer has already explained that to you and
19 will explain it to you again. But that is a
20 potential.
21 And so I don't anticipate that would be a
22 problem from counsel's perspective in making sure
23 his client is cooperative as far as participating
24 in this process going forward. Is that true?
25 MR. HAYMORE: That's absolutely true. As
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1 soon as Mr. Steed learned what his obligations
2 were, he was quick to find representation and show
3 up here today voluntarily. So I realize that the
4 government may have that concern. I personally
5 don't have that concern with this witness and
6 would anticipate full cooperation as far as
7 appearing when required to appear.
8 THE COURT: Okay. All right. Thank you
9 very much.
10 MS. BOBELA: Thank you, Your Honor.
11 THE COURT: And with--whenever it's
12 available, I would also like a full transcript of
13 today's deposition.
14 MS. BOBELA: Sure. And this is an
15 administrative subpoena testimony proceeding.
16 THE COURT: Right.
17 MS. BOBELA: Not a formal deposition. I
18 just want to make sure that's clear.
19 THE COURT: Yeah. From the testimony
20 today.
21 MS. BOBELA: And, Your Honor, if you
22 would permit, I am inclined to ask this witness a
23 series of questions down the road should this
24 witness be unavailable, the government would
25 ultimately ask the Court to make adverse
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1 inferences against the Corporation based on this
2 witness's refusal to cooperate. And I think it
3 would be fruitful for our purposes to at least get
4 the questions and a refusal to answer each and
5 every question that he's refused to answer should
6 the request for adverse inference down the road be
7 necessary.
8 THE COURT: Yes. I would certainly like
9 you to have all the questions asked today that you
10 believe you need to ask and get whatever answer is
11 appropriate today and then we can move forward.
12 MS. BOBELA: Okay. So there is a need
13 for further testimony. Unfortunately, we have
14 another witness outside who is scheduled for 1:00
15 p.m. Because this witness refused to cooperate
16 early on and there was lots of breaks taken to
17 confirm with his attorney as to whether or not he
18 needs to answer certain questions, time ran over.
19 And I would like to give this witness attention
20 and then come back and question Mr. Steed this
21 afternoon. If you could order him to stay and
22 answer questions after this witness, we would
23 appreciate that.
24 THE COURT: Okay. Yeah, if you folks
25 can--
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1 MR. HAYMORE: It will depend on how--I do
2 have obligations later on this afternoon. It
3 would be very problematic to stay a long period of
4 time, but if you're anticipating--if you can give
5 us any sort of time frame or anything, we would be
6 happy to come back today and do that on the
7 record. Or it seems to me that the series of
8 questions and responses will only take a few
9 minutes. I might ask that you just consider doing
10 it now while we're sitting here with everything
11 going on before you move to your next witness.
12 MS. BOBELA: Let me ask if this witness
13 is willing to wait.
14 MR. HAYMORE: Okay. Thank you.
15 THE COURT: Okay. So do you need me
16 further at this point?
17 MS. BOBELA: No. No. I do anticipate
18 meeting with you this afternoon.
19 THE COURT: I will be here.
20 MR. HAYMORE: One question I might want
21 to raise. When will the transcript be available
22 to us? We may want to use it in our briefing and
23 I'm wondering if we need to build in time frame in
24 order to obtain the transcript and submit it. I
25 just had a thought that this 14-day time frame
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1 might be--
3 MR. HAYMORE: Would you be opposed to
4 21 days as opposed to 14 in light of waiting for
5 the transcript?
6 MS. BOBELA: No, that's fine.
8 MS. BOBELA: How soon would you like my
9 response, Your Honor?
10 THE COURT: And then would 14 days after
11 that be--
12 MS. BOBELA: Yes. That's more than
13 reasonable.
14 MR. HAYMORE: And for a surreply, I would
15 assume seven days or--
16 THE COURT: Yeah. Seven days is good.
18 THE COURT: Thank you very much.
19 MR. HAYMORE: Thank you very much.
20 MS. BOBELA: Thank you, Your Honor.
22 MS. BOBELA: We are back on the record
23 with Mr. Vergel Steed. The Court has asked the
24 parties to brief the applicability of the First
25 Amendment privilege to the questions posed to
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1 Mr. Steed. And I want to make it perfectly clear
2 what questions are before him to determine whether
3 or not that First Amendment privilege would apply.
4 Earlier, Mr. Steed generally testified
5 that he would refuse to answer all questions
6 regarding the Corporation of the Presiding Bishop
7 and his involvement with the Corporation. But I
8 would like to flush out exactly which questions I
9 wanted to ask rather than just have a blanket
10 objection on the table. So I will just ask each
11 question and allow you to either assert a
12 privilege or answer if you changed your mind.
13 BY MS. BOBELA:
14 Q. Mr. Steed, are you or have you ever been
15 employed by the Corporation of the Presiding
16 Bishop of the FLDS Church?
17 A. I decline to answer.
18 Q. Have you ever volunteered for the
19 Corporation of the Presiding Bishop of the FLDS
20 Church?
22 Q. Are you a member of the FLDS Church?
24 Q. Do you hold any titles in the church,
25 such as special counselor, counselor in the
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1 bishopric, or patriarch?
3 Q. Who is the records custodian for the
4 Corporation of the Presiding Bishop for the FLDS
5 Church?
7 Q. Who maintains the records for the
8 Corporation?
9 A. Will not answer.
10 Q. Who is in charge of the Corporation of
11 the Presiding Bishop?
12 A. I will not answer.
13 Q. Is Lyle S. Jeffs still a counselor to the
14 president of the Corporation?
15 A. I will not answer based on my First
16 Amendment rights.
17 Q. Is Lyle S. Jeffs still a bishop of the
18 FLDS Church?
20 Q. What are Mr. Lyle S. Jeffs' duties and
21 responsibilities as counselor and bishop of the
22 FLDS Church?
24 Q. Is Mr. Vaughn E. Taylor a patriarch of
25 the FLDS Church?
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2 Q. What are Mr. Taylor's duties and
3 responsibilities in this role?
5 Q. Is John M. Barlow still a counselor in
6 the bishopric of the FLDS Church?
8 Q. What are Mr. Barlow's duties and
10 A. No answer.
11 Q. Is Ray M. Barlow still a counselor in the
12 bishopric of the FLDS Church?
13 A. No answer.
14 Q. What are Mr. Barlow's duties and
16 A. No answer.
17 Q. Does the Corporation have any employees?
18 A. No answer.
19 Q. And to clarify the record,
20 Corporation--I'm going to shorten it to
21 Corporation, but I'm referring to the Corporation
22 of the Presiding Bishop of the Church of the FLDS
23 Church.
24 A. All right.
25 Q. Does the Corporation rely on volunteers?
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2 Q. Who does the Corporation's accounting and
3 taxes?
5 Q. Are you familiar with what is known as
6 the storehouse account?
8 Q. Is the storehouse account a bank account
9 used by the Corporation?
10 A. Will not answer.
11 Q. Does the Corporation maintain a master
12 list of members in the FLDS Church?
14 Q. Who maintains the list of members?
16 Q. What are the methods of communication
17 between the church and its members?
19 Q. Does the Corporation maintain an e-mail
20 list of all of its members?
22 Q. Does the Corporation maintain phone
23 numbers and addresses of its members?
25 Q. Does the Corporation distribute voice
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1 messages to the members of its church?
2 A. No answer.
3 Q. Does the Corporation maintain--I'm sorry,
4 scratch that.
5 How does the Corporation maintain contact
6 information for its members?
7 A. No answer.
8 Q. Who authorizes communication from the
9 Corporation to its members?
10 A. No answer.
11 Q. Have you ever received voice messages
12 from the bishop's office?
13 A. No answer.
14 Q. The Corporation of the Presiding Bishop
15 is commonly referred to as the bishop's office?
16 A. No answer.
17 Q. In what context--
18 A. --that was a question.
19 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, what did
20 you say?
21 THE WITNESS: That was a statement. I'm
22 not sure if I was supposed to answer that, but--
23 BY MS. BOBELA:
24 Q. Is it true that the Corporation of the
25 Presiding Bishop is often referred to as the
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1 bishop's office?
2 A. No answer.
3 Q. In what context have you received voice
4 messages from the bishop's office?
5 A. No answer.
6 Q. How often do you receive voice messages
8 A. No answer.
9 Q. Who sends out messages from the bishop's
10 office to the FLDS Church?
11 A. No answer.
12 Q. Does the Corporation maintain a voice
13 mail system that allows it to send out mass
14 distributions of voice messages to its members?
15 A. No answer.
16 Q. What is the Corporation's relationship
17 with Paragon Contractors?
18 A. No answer.
19 Q. What is Brian Jessop's affiliation with
20 the Corporation?
21 A. No answer.
22 Q. What is the Corporation's involvement
23 with the pecan harvest that took place at the
24 Southern Utah Pecan Ranch in 2012?
25 A. No answer.
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1 Q. You are aware that members of the FLDS
2 Church went to the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch in
3 2012 to collect nuts left over on the ground after
4 the tree harvest?
5 A. That was a statement. Should I answer?
6 Q. That was a question. You are aware
7 that--are you aware that members of the FLDS
8 Church went to the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch in
9 2012 to collect nuts left over on the ground after
10 the tree harvest?
11 A. No answer.
12 Q. How are the FLDS members notified of the
13 nut harvest each year?
14 A. No answer.
15 Q. How do the FLDS Church members know when
16 and where to report for the nut harvest each year?
17 A. No answer.
18 Q. Who provides access to the FLDS members
19 at the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch?
20 A. No answer.
21 Q. Does the church provide transportation to
22 the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch for the nut harvest?
23 A. No answer.
24 Q. Does the church pay for the
25 transportation of its members to the Southern Utah
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1 Pecan Ranch?
2 A. No answer.
3 Q. Does the Corporation supervise the FLDS
4 members' activities at the Southern Utah Pecan
5 Ranch?
6 A. No answer.
7 Q. Does the Corporation maintain the
8 day-to-day operations relevant to the pecan
9 harvest at the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch?
10 A. No answer.
11 Q. Did the Corporation provide instructions
12 of what its members are to do at the Southern Utah
13 Pecan Ranch for the nut harvest?
14 A. No answer.
15 Q. Are the FLDS members who participate in
16 the nut harvest compensated for their labor?
17 A. No answer.
18 Q. How does the Corporation benefit from the
19 pecan harvest activities that its members perform?
20 A. No answer.
21 Q. Does the Corporation provide security at
22 the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch?
23 A. No answer.
24 Q. Does the Corporation provide supplies,
25 such as buckets and bags and gloves, that the FLDS
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1 members use to collect the ground nuts?
2 A. No answer.
3 Q. How did the Corporation keep track of how
4 many nuts each family or each individual picks at
6 A. No answer.
7 Q. Does the church sell the pecans after
8 they are collected by the FLDS members at the
9 Southern Utah Pecan Ranch?
10 A. No answer.
11 Q. How many years has the corporation
12 facilitated and organized the labor that takes
13 place at the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch?
14 A. No answer.
15 Q. How many days do the families and
16 individuals work at the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch?
17 A. No answer.
18 Q. How many hours have the FLDS members
19 worked at the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch?
20 A. No answer.
21 Q. Are there any records related to the
22 hours these individuals worked at the Southern
23 Utah Pecan Ranch?
24 A. No answer.
25 Q. And by these individuals, I'm referring
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1 to any records relating to the hours the FLDS
2 members worked at the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch.
3 A. I understand that.
4 Q. Did the Corporation provide any field
5 sanitation provided for its members at the
7 A. No answer.
8 Q. Did the Corporation pay for any of the
9 field sanitation equipment, such as Porta-Potties,
10 at the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch?
11 A. No answer.
12 Q. What is Dale Barlow's relationship to the
13 Corporation?
14 A. No answer.
15 Q. Would you agree that up to 1400 FLDS
16 members participated in the nut harvest at the
18 A. No answer.
19 Q. You are aware that the labor provided by
20 the FLDS members took place during school hours?
21 A. False. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to
22 do when you make a statement. I'm sorry.
23 Q. Are you aware that the labor provided by
24 the FLDS members took place during school hours?
25 A. No answer.
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1 Q. How many FLDS children participated in
2 the nut harvest at the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch?
3 A. No answer.
4 Q. How many adults?
5 A. No answer.
6 Q. Are you aware of a voice mail from the
7 bishop's office instructing all schools to take
8 the rest of the week off of school to help with
9 the harvest?
10 A. No answer.
11 Q. Where did this voice message come from?
12 A. No answer.
13 Q. Who recorded the voice message?
14 A. No answer.
15 Q. Did the Corporation--someone at the
16 Corporation record the voice message?
17 A. No answer.
18 Q. Do you know whose voice is on the message
20 A. No answer.
21 Q. To clarify the record, I did play this
22 message for you today; is that correct?
23 A. You did.
24 Q. And you have refused to answer questions
25 regarding where the message came from?
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1 A. Correct.
2 Q. And you refuse to answer questions
3 regarding who recorded the message?
4 A. Yes, ma'am.
5 Q. The Corporation distributed that voice
6 mail from the bishop's office to the FLDS members?
7 Did the Corporation distribute the voice message?
8 A. No answer.
9 Q. Did you receive the voice message that I
10 played for you today prior to the day your counsel
11 played it for you in his office?
12 A. No answer.
13 Q. Did your children or other family members
14 meet at the Foothill School after receiving that
15 message to participate in the nut harvest?
16 A. No answer.
17 Q. Why is the bishop's office involved in
18 directing children and families to perform work on
19 the Utah Pecan Ranch?
20 A. No answer.
21 Q. Is it common for the bishop's office to
22 be involved in directing labor of children in the
23 community?
24 A. No answer.
25 Q. The nut harvest referred to in the voice
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1 message is the pecan harvest at the Southern Utah
2 Pecan Ranch, correct?
3 A. No answer.
4 Q. The Corporation owns the 15-passenger
5 vans that are referred to in the voice message,
6 correct?
7 A. No answer.
8 Q. How many vans does the Corporation own?
9 A. No answer.
10 Q. What is the Foothill School's
11 relationship with the Corporation?
12 A. No answer.
13 Q. Would you agree that the Corporation
14 organized and facilitated the labor of the FLDS
15 members at the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch?
17 Q. Would you agree that the church acted as
18 the employer of the FLDS members who participated
19 in the harvest at the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch?
21 Q. Would you agree that the church employed
22 approximately 1400 individuals who participated at
25 Q. Did the Corporation receive the proceeds
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1 from the sale of the nuts harvested at the
4 Q. Did Paragon pay a portion of its proceeds
5 to the Corporation from its work at the Southern
6 Utah Pecan Ranch?
7 A. No answer.
8 MS. BOBELA: Okay. I think those are all
9 the questions that I had for you. Thank you very
10 much.
11 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
12 (Proceeding concluded at 1:26 p.m.)
13
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1 CERTIFICATE
2 This is to certify that the foregoing
3 proceeding was taken before me, NANCY A. FULLMER,
4 a Registered Merit Reporter and Notary Public in
5 and for the State of Utah;
6 That said witness was duly sworn to testify
7 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
8 truth;
9 That the deposition was reported by me in
10 stenotype and thereafter caused by me to be
11 transcribed into typewriting, and that a full,
12 true, and correct transcription of said testimony
13 so taken and transcribed is set forth in the
14 foregoing pages;
15 That no review of this proceeding was
16 requested by either party or the witness and,
17 therefore, pursuant to Rule 30(e) of the Utah
18 Rules of Civil Procedure the review was waived.
19 I certify that I am not of kin or otherwise
20 associated with any of the parties to said cause
21 and am not interested in the event thereof.
22 _____________________
23 Nancy A. Fullmer, RMR
24 My Commission Expires:
25 June 28, 2016

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