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John Cage and Roger Reynolds: A Conversation
Author(s): Roger Reynolds and John Cage
Source: The Musical Quarterly, Vol. 65, No. 4, (Oct., 1979), pp. 573-594
Published by: Oxford University Press
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/741573
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J o h n C a g e a n d R o g e r R e yn o ld s:
A C o n ve r sa tio n
I N 1961 R o g e r R e yn o ld s in te r vie we d
J o h n
C a g e in A n n A r bo r ,
Mich ig a n .'
On
A ug ust
28, 1977,
R e yn o ld s
a n d
C a g e
me t
a g a in .
Th e
fo llo win g e xce r pts
a r e d r a wn fr o m th a t co n ve r sa tio n .
R o g e r R e yn o ld s:
Th e in te r vie w th a t we d id in 1961 wa s
ve r y
im-
po r ta n t
to me ...
J o h n C a g e :
... a n d to me ...
R R : Our e a r lie r in te r vie w
sug g e ste d
a
r e spo n se .
I n ste a d o f
d o in g
a
co mme n ta r y myse lf,
h o we ve r ,
wh ich be ca use o f th e n a tur e o f
yo ur
wo r k -so
co n tin uo usly e vo lvin g -
wo uld be
pr e sump-
tuo us,
I
th o ug h t
it
mig h t
be
g o o d
if we ma d e a
co mme n ta r y
to g e th e r .
Wh a t I 've tr ie d to d o is ma ke th e
que stio n s
in such a
wa y
a s
to e sta blish th e co n te xt th a t e xiste d e a r lie r . Yo u tr o uble d me
wh e n
yo u
r e ma r ke d
r e ce n tly
th a t th e se cr e to f a
g o o d
in te r vie w
wa s
g o o d que stio n s
...
J C :
N o w I ca n
put yo u
a t
yo ur
e a se
by sa yin g
th a t th e se cr e t o f a
g o o d
in te r vie w is
g o o d
a n swe r s.
... a s
Duch a mp
sa id ,
if
yo u
h a ve
po o r
to o ls -wh ich wo uld
be
po o r que stio n s
-th a t
simply r e quir e s
th e use o f
g r e a te r
skill in
ma kin g g o o d
a n swe r s.
R R : I n
r e a d in g
th e 1961
in te r vie w,
I wa s str uck with th e
fr e que n t
use o f ce r ta in wo r d s:
"use ful,"
"ple a sin g ,"
"a ctio n ,"
"ch a n g e ."
I h a ve tr ie d to a llo w
my que stio n s
to
g r o w
o ut o f th e ir co n te xt.
I t se e ms to me th a t a
pa r ticula r ly po we r ful a spe ct
o f
yo ur
im-
"I n te r vie w with
R o g e r R e yn o ld s," C o n te mpo r a r y C o mpo se r s
o n
C o n te mpo r a r y
Music,
e d .
Ba r n e y
C h ild s a n d Ellio t Sch wa r tz
(N e w
Yo r k,
1967).
573
Th e Musica l
Qua r te r ly
pa ct
o n
music,
a n d o n a r t in
g e n e r a l,
h a s be e n to wid e n
un e xpe cte d ly
a n d
d e cisive ly,
wh a t it is r e a so n a ble to d o a s a
musicia n . Wo uld
yo u
be
un h a ppy
with a n e ffo r tto ch a r a cte r ize
yo u
a s a "te a ch e r o f
a cce pta n ce "?
I se e
impo r ta n t
d iffe r e n ce s
be twe e n ,
le t us
sa y, "e ma n cipa tio n "
a n d
"a cce pta n ce ."
J C :
I 've o fte n sa id th a t
a n yth in g g o e s pr o vid e d
we sta r t fr o m ze r o .
A n d it's in th a t
spir it
th a t I wo uld be
willin g
to be
th o ug h t
o f a s a te a ch e r o f
a cce pta n ce .
Th a t is to
sa y,
we ca n
a cce pt
wh a te ve r if we a r e
e mpty
to
be g in
with . But
ve r y
fe w
pe o ple
a r e
e mpty.
I n
fa ct,
a ll th o se
d isciplin e s
o f th e Or ie n t bo th in
I n d ia a n d in C h in a a n d
J a pa n
we r e str e n uo us
d isciplin e s,
a n d
th e y
we r e
n o t,
o f
co ur se ,
fo r musicia n s but fo r
pe o ple
wh o we r e
a tte mptin g
to
ch a n g e
th e ir min d s to wa r d s a sta te o f
e mptin e ss.
By e mptin e ss
is me a n t n o t
co lla pse
o f life but r a th e r th e
quie t-
in g
o f
d e sir e ,
th e
quie tin g
o f th e
e g o .
A s Suzuki
put
it,
th e
e g o
ca n a ct a s a ba r r ie r to o ur
e xpe r ie n ce (wh e th e r
it co me s fr o m
with o ut o r fr o m
with in )
o r it ca n flo w with th e
e xpe r ie n ce ,
wh ich wo uld me a n it ca n be in th is sta te o f
a cce pta n ce
. . .
wh e th e r it is fr o m th e
n ig h t
o r fr o m th e
d a y, th r o ug h
th e
d r e a ms o r
th r o ug h
th e se n se s. A n d h e sa id th a t wh a t Ze n wa n ts
is th a t th e flo w ta ke
pla ce ,
a n d th a t th e flo w o ut to th e
d a y
co me ba ck
th r o ug h
th e
n ig h t
so th a t o n e is
pa r t
o f a wh o le
cir cle o f
life ,
n o t
just
a n o bsta cle to th a t life . Th e
min d ,
in
o th e r
wo r d s,
ca n se t itse lf
up
a s a n o bsta cle to th e
ca pita l
"m"
Min d ,
o r it ca n flo w with th a t Min d . A n d Ze n wa n ts it to flo w.
I t wa s such
te a ch in g
a n d such
th in kin g
. .. a n d I 'm
quite
a wa r e
th a t th e d e cisio n I ma d e th a t le d to
my usin g
ch a n ce
o pe r a -
tio n s,
th a t in te r ms o f th e I
C h in g
itse lf
- n o t a s a
me ch a n ism,
a s I use
it,
but a s a bo o k o f wisd o m
-
th a t I h a ve
o pte d
fo r th e
h e xa g r a m
th a t d e a ls with
r e ce ptivity
o r
a cce pta n ce
r a th e r th a n
th e
h e xa g r a m
th a t d e a ls with
cr e a tivity
a n d th e
impo sitio n
o f
o n e 's
id e a s,
fo r th e fe ma le
pr in ciple
r a th e r th a n fo r th e ma le
pr in ciple
... o r th e Ea r th
pr in ciple
a s
o ppo se d
to th e He a ve n
pr in ciple (ta lkin g
in te r ms o f
Yin /Ya n g ).
But if we 'r e
ta lkin g
in te r ms o f
Yin /Ya n g ,
we 'r e n o t a t th e
h e ig h t
o f Ze n Bud d h ism.
Be ca use ,
in
Ze n ,
He a ve n is
Ea r th ,
Ea r th is
He a ve n ,
a n d so it is
n o t fe ma le to h a ve
o pte d
fo r th e fe ma le . . . it is a s ma le a s
fe ma le .
574
R e yn o ld s/C a g e
C o n ve r sa tio n
Suzuki
put
it
ve r y be a utifully
a t a
ph ilo so ph e r 's co n g r e ss
in
Ha wa ii. On e o f th e
ph ilo so ph e r s
a ske d Suzuki wh a t h e
th o ug h t
o f th e le ctur e . Suzuki
sa id ,
"I t wa s
e xce lle n t,
but in Ze n th e im-
po r ta n t th in g
is life ." Th e n e xt
d a y
th is sa me ma n a ske d h im a
simila r
que stio n
a bo ut a n o th e r
le ctur e ,
a n d Suzuki
sa id ,
"Th a t
le ctur e , a lso ,
wa s
ve r y g o o d ,
but in Ze n th e
impo r ta n t th in g
is
d e a th ." Th e ma n wa s
in d ig n a n t.
"Ho w ca n
yo u sa y
'life ' o n e
d a y
a n d 'd e a th ' th e n e xt?" Suzuki smile d a n d
sa id ,
"I n
Ze n ,
th e r e 's n o t much d iffe r e n ce be twe e n th e two ."
A cce pta n ce
is
ve r y
d ifficult in th e
lig h t
o f such n o n d ua listic
th in kin g .
Eve n in th e
Or ie n t,
e ve n un d e r th e sa me in flue n ce s
th a t Suzuki wa s
un d e r ,
it's d ifficultto co me to .
Th e ma n wh o is a t th e h e a d o f ma cr o bio tics is Mish io Kush i.
A s I se e
it,
h is
te a ch in g
is e xce lle n t but h is
un d e r sta n d in g
o f
ph ilo so ph y,
o f
a cce pta n ce ,
o f in str uctio n is d ua listic . . . He
spe a ks
o f Yin a n d
Ya n g
a n d o f th e
o ppo site s
a s
h a vin g
to be
fuse d .
Ve r y
much a s a Ge r ma n
ph ilo so ph e r
wo uld
spe a k
a bo ut
th e
ma r r ia g e
o f fo r m a n d co n te n t.
R R : Yo u cr e d ite d
yo ur
A un t Ph o e be with
in tr o d ucin g yo u
to "music
th e wh o le wo r ld lo ve s to
pla y."
Wh a t is
yo ur impr e ssio n
o f th e
musica l
e n g a g e me n ts
th a t th e
a ve r a g e pe r so n
se e ks n o w? Fo r
in sta n ce ,
in ce r ta in a r e a s o f
co n te mpo r a r y
life it
a ppe a r s
th a t
th e r e is a
g r o win g
tr e n d fo r
pe o ple
to
e n jo y th in g s be in g
d o n e
to th e m. I a sk
my que stio n
in r e fe r e n ce to
yo ur
sta te me n t in
th e e a r lie r in te r vie w th a t "we must
a r r a n g e e ve r yth in g
so th a t
pe o ple
r e a lize th a t
th e y
th e mse lve s a r e
d o in g
it a n d n o t th a t
so me th in g
is
be in g
d o n e to th e m." Wh a t d o e s th e wh o le wo r ld
lo ve to
pla y
n o w?
J C :
I d o n 't th in k we ca n
a n y lo n g e r spe a k
so
ve r y g e n e r a lly.
Fir st o f a ll th e r e a r e mo r e
pe o ple
n o w.
Se co n d ly,
th e r e is a
d e fin ite fusio n be twe e n Ea st a n d We st
(A un t
Ph o e be h a d th e
n o tio n
th e y
we r e
se pa r a te ). Fin a lly
th e r e h a s be e n a
g r e a t
a c-
ce pta n ce ,
bo th in so -ca lle d se r io us music a n d in
po pula r
music,
o f
te ch n o lo g y,
o f
te ch n o lo g ica l ch a n g e s.
A ll th e se
th in g s
h a ve
a cte d to
multiply
th e d iffe r e n ce s be twe e n
th in g s
th a t n o w a r e
a ctua lly
d o n e a n d
e n jo ye d .
So th a t r a th e r th a n th e r e
be in g
a n
a ud ie n ce ,
o r r a th e r th a n th e r e
be in g
a str e a m o f
music,
th e r e
575
Th e Musica l
Qua r te r ly
is
a ctua lly
a
g r e a t multiplicity
... a co e xiste n ce o f
a cce pta ble
d issimila r s ... Do n 't
yo u
th in k? ...
I d id n 't
g o
to Pa ulin e Olive r o s' r e ce n t N e w Yo r k
co n ce r t,
but
pe o ple
wh o we r e th e r e we r e
d e e ply impr e sse d by
th e e xce lle n ce
with wh ich it wa s
d o n e ,
a n d
by
th e "use fuln e ss"
-
co min g
ba ck
to a wo r d th a t
yo u sa y
I use d a n d wh ich I still like
-
th e "use -
fuln e ss" o f h e r
pe r fo r ma n ce ,
a n d use fuln e ss in th e se n se o f
th e Min d .
R R : . . . a n d o f a n in tima te
r e la tio n sh ip
to life a s sh e h a s ch o se n
to le a d it
r e ce n tly
...
J C :
Ye s. I co n n e ct h e r
wo r k,
a s I d o
R ile y's
a n d La Mo n te
Yo un g 's,
a n d
ce r ta in ly
o th e r s,
with th e N o r th e r n Sch o o l r a th e r th a n th e
So uth e r n Sch o o l o f Ze n Bud d h ism. I t's a music th a t is co n -
ce r n e d with
g r a d ua l e n lig h te n me n t,
n o t sud d e n
e xpe r ie n ce .
Th e N o r th e r n Sch o o l wa s th e o n e wh ich in siste d th a t Ze n must
be le a r n e d
by sittin g cr o ss-le g g e d
a n d
d e e p br e a th in g , g r a d ua lly,
a n d it is
pr e cise ly
th is
br e a th in g
a n d th is
sittin g cr o ss-le g g e d
th a t is th e n a tur e o f Pa ulin e 's wo r k a n d o f
Te r r y R ile y's
wo r k
a n d o f La Mo n te 's wo r k. I t h a s
pr o d uce d
a music th a t is in a r -
ticula te . I t is n o t
spe a kin g .
Disco ur se is
a bse n t,
a n d th e
g r o wth
o f th e
e xpe r ie n ce
. . . o r
th e
e xpe r ie n ce
o f th e
e xpe r ie n ce ,
th e
e xpe r ie n ce
o f th e Min d
is
be in g pr e se n te d
a s it
is,
a n d a s it is a t th a t mo me n t.
R R : "Pr e se n te d " o r "o ffe r e d "?
J C :
Wh ich e ve r .
I t ca n th e n be fo llo we d
by
th e
liste n e r ,
a n d th e liste n e r ca n
put
h imse lf in a sta te o f
pa r ticipa tio n mystique .
I t's th e
o n ly
th in g
th a t th e liste n e r ca n d o . He must
id e n tify
with th e
pe r -
fo r me r . Th e
e xpe r ie n ce
is n o t
in te r e stin g
un le ss
yo u id e n tify
with it.
N o w th e d iffe r e n ce be twe e n
Te r r y R ile y
a n d Pa ulin e is th e
d iffe r e n ce be twe e n a r ticula tio n a n d n o n a r ticula tio n . I 'm n o w
spe a kin g quite
lite r a lly.
Wh e n I sa id "in a r ticula te ," I d id n 't
me a n it in a ba d se n se . I me a n t it in th e se n se th a t th e icti o f
music o f th e
pa st
a r e a bse n t in th e wo r k o f Pa ulin e wh e r e a s
th e y
a r e
pr e se n t
in th e wo r k o f
R ile y
a n d o f Gla ss a n d o f R e ich .
576
R e yn o ld s/C a g e
C o n ve r sa tio n
Th e r e a r e
la r g e
a ud ie n ce s fo r th a t kin d o f music
(o f R ile y
a n d
Gla ss a n d
R e ich ),
but I
myse lf
ca n 't use it. I d o n 't like th o se
icti,
I d o n 't like
pe r io d icity.
I n th e ca se o f C o n lo n
N a n ca r r o w,
I h a ve le ss
d ifficulty, pr e cise ly
be ca use o f th e
ch a n g e s
in th e be a t
le n g th .
But in th e ca se o f
R ile y,
Gla ss,
a n d R e ich th e fixe d be a ts
g ive
me
g r e a td ifficulty.
R R : Th e r e is a n
e xtr a o r d in a r y e xpe r ie n ce
to be h a d in C o n lo n N a n -
ca r r o w's music: a simulta n e o us
in d e pe n d e n ce
wh ich is in siste d
upo n .
Th e r e is n o t th e me ld th a t is such a
n e ce ssa r y pa r t
o f
th e
ple a sur e
o f th e music o f th o se we 've be e n
spe a kin g
o f
just
n o w.
J C :
I h a ve a n o th e r
pr o ble m
with
N a n ca r r o w,
but it's n o t th e o n e
I 'm
spe a kin g
o f n o w. Th e
pr o ble m
a r ise s
th r o ug h
th e
e n e r g y
wh ich is r e le n tle ss in h is wo r k. Th a t kin d o f
e n e r g y
is a lso
pr e se n t
in th e
ve r y
be a utful wo r k o f Da vid
Tud o r ,
h is e le ctr o n ic
music. I a m
th in kin g
o f th e
pie ce
ca lle d "To n e Bur st" th a t
g o e s
with Me r ce
C un n in g h a m's
d a n ce "So un d d a n ce ." Th e
e n e r g y
is so
in ca lcula ble ,
wh ich is wh a t it is with N a n ca r r o w to o . I
r e me mbe r a
pie ce
o f N a n ca r r o w's fo r two
pia n o s.
I wa s
sittin g
th e r e in th is r o o m in Me xico
C ity,
a n d it se e me d a s
th o ug h
th e se
pia n o s
we r e
g o in g
to ...
R R : . . . th a t
th e y
we r e
ma r ch in g upo n yo u
...
J C :
... a n d in
my
sta te o f
a cce pta n ce ,
o f
co ur se ,
I wa s
d e lig h te d
to
be so o ve r wh e lme d . But fr ie n d s with me
r e siste d ;
th e y
co uld n 't
a cce pt
it. A n d I fo un d with a n umbe r o f
pe o ple
wh o se
fe e lin g s
I
r e spe ct,
th a t
th e y
a r e
put
o ff
by
th is wa ve o f
e n e r g y
wh ich I
myse lf
d o n 't fin d
o bje ctio n a ble .
On th e o th e r
h a n d ,
I th in k if I liste n e d to N a n ca r r o w fo r
lo n g ,
th a t I wo uld h a ve to
fin a lly sa y, ple a se
tur n if o ff. Th e music
th a t I d o n 't h a ve to tur n o ff is
pr e cise ly
th e music with us wh e n
we d o n 't h a ve
a n y
music . . . a n d th a t is th e "Min d " with th e
ca pita l
"m." Th a t is wh a t I me a n t
by my
sile n t
pie ce
in
1952,
a n d it is still th a t
pie ce
wh ich is
my
fa vo r ite music. Th a t's
wh y
I h a ve
-
if I d o h a ve
-
a n y d ifficulty
with
a n y
o th e r music
(e ve n
if it's
my o wn ).
I t's be ca use o f th a t lo ve th a t I h a ve th a t
d ifficulty.
577
Th e Musica l
Qua r te r ly
C o min g
ba ck to
yo ur que stio n , yo u
ca n se e
imme d ia te ly
th a t
so me a ud ie n ce s a r e
r e a d y
fo r
N a n ca r r o w,
so me a r e n o t. So me
a r e
r e a d y
fo r
Pa ulin e ,
so me a r e n o t. So me will
fin d ,
a s I
d o ,
o th e r
th in g s quite
use ful. ..
I d o n 't th in k N a n ca r r o w like s
my
id e a s o r
my
music . .
my
in te r e st in ch a n ce a n d ch a o s a n d
d iso r g a n iza tio n
...
R R : He sa id h e
d o e s, in d e e d ,
like
th in g s
"a ce r ta in
wa y."
J C :
A n d h e like s th e m mo r e th e
wa y
Me r ce h a s th e m in ch o r e -
o g r a ph y.
But h e d id n o tice th a t it wa s
in te r e stin g
to h a ve a
music th a t
wa s,
so to
spe a k, d iso r g a n ize d
in th e
pr e se n ce
o f a
d a n ce th a t wa s
quite d iffe r e n tly o r g a n ize d .
R R : N a n ca r r o w is n o w
fe e lin g just
th e
po in t yo u
a r e
ma kin g
be ca use
h e 's co n ce r n e d with th e
pr o ble m
o f
syn ch r o n izin g
two
pla ye r
pia n o s
...
J C :
... I kn o w. He to ld
me ,
"I h a ve
fin a lly
co me to a
po in t
wh e r e
I a m
ma kin g
a music wh ich I kn o w
yo u
will
e n jo y"
. . . Be fo r e
th a t,
h e d id n 't se e h o w I co uld
e n jo y
h is music. Th e r e a so n I
co uld
e n jo y
h is music wa s be ca use o f th is
fle xibility
o f th e
be a t;
n o t th a t it's
sud d e n ly
fle xible
-
a s I wo uld wa n t it to be in
my
o wn wo r k
-
but th a t it's
g r a d ua lly
fle xible
pr o d uce s g r a titud e
in me .
R R : Wh e n I a ske d
yo u
a bo ut so un d s th a t h a d be e n d ista ste ful to
yo u,
such a s Be e th o ve n a n d th e
vibr a ph o n e , yo u
me n tio n e d
Muza k. I
e spe cia lly
a d mir e th e
impulse
to se e k r e sista n t ma te -
r ia ls,
a n d wo n d e r in th is co n n e ctio n if th e r e a r e
a n y
so un d s
yo u
h a ve
r e ce n tly
co me to fin d d ista ste ful.
J C :
Th e
o n ly pr o ble m
th a t I a m a wa r e o f in te r ms o f so un d s th e m-
se lve s . . . it's still th e
vibr a ph o n e
fo r me . I h a ve n 't co me to
te r ms with it. Th e r e wa s a
pie ce
o f Mo r to n Fe ld ma n 's in wh ich
h e like d wh a t h e 'd d o n e so much th a t h e a ske d me if it d id n 't
ch a n g e my
min d a bo ut th e
vibr a ph o n e ,
but th e
vibr a ph o n e
wa s
pr e cise ly
th e
th in g
th a t
ke pt
me fr o m
h e a r in g
th a t
pie ce
o f h is.
R R : Yo u me n tio n e d th e id e a o f
usin g
d ista ste ful so un d s a s a me a n s
o f
co min g
to te r ms with th e m ...
578
R e yn o ld s/C a g e
C o n ve r sa tio n
J C :
... but I
r e a lly
a m n o t in clin e d to ma ke a
pie ce
fo r
vibr a ph o n e !
R R :
Pe r h a ps
th a t r e la te s to wh a t
yo u
fe e l ca n be a ch ie ve d in th e
wa y
o f tr a n sfo r ma tio n
by
ch a n ce
o pe r a tio n s, by
in d e te r min a te
co mbin a tio n s. I t se e ms to
me ,
a n d I
put
th is fo r th
te n ta tive ly,
th a t
yo u
h a ve
pe r h a ps
be co me a little bit le ss in te n t th a n
yo u
we r e
pr e vio usly upo n th in g s be in g "e xpr e ssive
o f th e mse lve s."
J C :
I d o n 't kn o w
ye t
wh a t
yo u'r e a skin g ...
I still wo uld like
th in g s
to be th e mse lve s...
Th in g s
a r e n o t th e mse lve s wh e n
th e y
a r e
so me th in g
e lse th a n
th e mse lve s in o ur
r e ce ptio n
o f th e m.
I f,
fo r
in sta n ce ,
I r e n t a
ca r a n d
put
o n th e br a ke s a n d a so un d
imme d ia te ly
co me s th a t
sug g e sts
th a t th e br a ke s a r e n o t
fun ctio n in g pr o pe r ly,
th e n th e
so un d is n o
lo n g e r
a so un d . Th e so un d is a r e fe r e n ce to th e
br a ke s. So th a t if we 'r e
spe a kin g ,
a s we a r e
n o w,
o f so un d s in
th e fie ld o f
music,
we 'r e
spe a kin g
in te r ms n o t o f a r th a in
I n d ia n
ph ilo so ph y (wh ich
is "succe ss" a n d
"fa ilur e ")
but o f
libe r a tio n ,
o f mo ksh a . A n d wh e n th e so un d co me s fr o m th e
ma lfun ctio n in g
br a ke ,
we 'r e ba ck
sud d e n ly
o ut o f mo ksh a in to
a r th a . We must sa ve o ur live s r a th e r th a n live
a e sth e tica lly.
We must r e a ct to th e
me ssa g e ,
th e
wa r n in g
th a t is
be in g g ive n .
R R :
Pr e suma bly
th e
vibr a ph o n e
d o e s n o t
g ive yo u
a
wa r n in g
...
J C :
Ye s it d o e s . . . a s d o e s th e
smo g
in o ur a ir . I t
sug g e sts
th a t
in ve n tio n s h a ve ta ke n
pla ce
th a t
o ug h tn 't
to h a ve .
R R : ... so it's th e
impulse
th a t's
g ive n
r ise to th e
vibr a ph o n e
th a t
ma ke s it so d ifficultto d e a l with a s a so un d ...
J C :
I fin d it
sicke n in g ly
swe e t ... Eve n
th o ug h
o ur
sun se ts,
a s N o r -
ma n 0. Br o wn h a s
po in te d
o ut,
a r e mo r e be a utiful with o ur
smo g
th a n
th e y
we r e wh e n th e a ir wa s
cle a n ,
it wo uld be be tte r
fo r th e a ir to be cle a n ...
I ca n co me ba ck to
yo ur que stio n .
Fo r
ve r y, ve r y lo n g
I 've
r e a lize d th a t
th in g s
must n o t be
just
be a utiful,
but th a t th e r e
must be
th in g s
th a t a r e d ifficult fo r us to
a cce pt
in
a mo n g
th e
th in g s
wh ich we
a cce pt e a sily.
A n d th a t kin d o f
th in kin g
wa s
in
my
min d e ve n be fo r e I stud ie d Ze n Bud d h ism. So th a t wh e n
I ma d e th e
pr e pa r a tio n s
o f a
pia n o ,
I
d e libe r a te ly put
in so un d s
579
Th e Musica l
Qua r te r ly
wh ich we r e
un ple a sa n t, just
a s I kn e w th a t o n e o f th e
th in g s
th a t ma ke s th e
o r g a n
so
fa scin a tin g
to th e e a r is th e
a uxilia r y
n o ise th a t
g o e s
with it. Th is is wh a t th e
vibr a ph o n e
so la cks.
A s a h uma n
be in g ,
I
a ctua lly
se a r ch o ut
-
mo r e th a n I d o th e
ple a sur a ble
-
I
a ctua lly
se a r ch o ut th e
un ple a sur a ble .
I lo o k
to se e wh e r e it is th a t I a m ir r ita te d . . . a n d n o t th a t kin d o f
ir r ita tio n th a t co me s fr o m
so upy
swe e tn e ss ...
R R : We ta lke d a bo ut time a s a fo r e mo st co n sid e r a tio n a n d
yo u
sa id
pr o vo ca tive ly:
"We must fin d so me
wa y
to be a ble to
g o
in
a ll
d ir e ctio n s,
n o t
just
fo r wa r d s a n d ba ckwa r d s in time ." Ha ve
yo u
co me
upo n a n y
un fa milia r
te mpo r a l e xpe r ie n ce s r e ce n tly?
J C :
Mo st o f
my
life a s a
co mpo se r
I 've r e siste d
impr o visa tio n .
I t's
o n e o f th e
th in g s, r e ce n tly,
th a t I 'm
co min g
to te r ms with . A n d
be in g a n ywh e r e
in th e time is
pa r t
o f
my
n o tio n o f
impr o visa -
tio n .
A t th e
pr e se n t
time ,
if I we r e a ske d to
te a ch ,
I wo uld ca ll it
"str uctur a l
impr o visa tio n ." By
th a t I me a n a n
impr o visa tio n
th a t e xists in a
g ive n pe r io d
o f
time ,
a n d th a t time is d ivid e d
in to "r o o ms." Th e
in str ume n ts,
wh a te ve r
th e y h a ppe n
to
be ,
a r e
pla ye d
in such a
wa y
a s to ma ke th e d iffe r e n ce be twe e n
th o se r o o ms cle a r . But wh e r e th e so un d is in th e r o o m is n o t
impo r ta n t.
Or
yo u
co uld
sa y
it co uld
g o
"in
a n y
d ir e ctio n " . . .
R R : ... I 'm
h a vin g
tr o uble with th e use o f a
spa tia l
o r vo lume tr ic
ima g e
fo r d iffe r e n t time
e xpe r ie n ce s
...
J C :
. . .
Sa y
th e r e we r e a d o ze n
pe o ple impr o visin g to g e th e r
with
th e kin d o f in str uctio n I 've
just sug g e ste d ,
wo uld
yo u
th e n
h a ve tr o uble ?
R R : A s a d o e r o r a s a liste n e r ?
J C :
Eith e r .
R R : I th in k I
mig h t
h a ve tr o uble a s a liste n e r ...
J C :
I d o n 't th in k so .
R R : . . .
e xpe r ie n cin g
a fr e sh
te mpo r a l
se n se ,
but I ca n
e a sily
ima g in e
a s a "d o e r "
h a vin g
r a th e r cur io us
te mpo r a l
...
J C :
. ..
n o ,
I th in k in bo th ca se s th e . ..
e xpe r ie n ce s
wo uld be
..
quite
... ma r ve lo us.
580
R e yn o ld s/C a g e
C o n ve r sa tio n
R R : I f we we r e to be
d o in g
th a t kin d o f
a ctivity,
if
yo u
we r e to be
te a ch in g
in th a t
wa y,
wh a t
mig h t yo u
be
willin g
to
sa y
a bo ut
th e "r o o m" ... th e id e a o f th e "r o o m"?
J C :
I ca n
sa y
th a t th e fir st r o o m is th r e e min ute s a n d th e se co n d
r o o m is five min ute s a n d th e th ir d r o o m is two min ute s . . .
a n d ,
g ive n
th e in str ume n ts wh ich
yo u
h a ve ,
put
so me o f th e m in
o n e r o o m a n d o th e r s in a n o th e r r o o m a n d still o th e r s in th e
th ir d r o o m. We co uld
be g in
th a t
wa y,
so to
spe a k,
in
un a n imity.
A n d it wo uld be
quite
ma r ve lo us.
R R : Ho w wo uld we be a wa r e o f th e d ime n sio n s o f th o se r o o ms?
J C :
Of th e time ? ...
R R : . .. fo r
e xa mple ,
wo uld th e r e be a n a wa r e n e ss o f th e a r r iva l
o f th e
e n d ,
in wh ich
so me th in g mig h t
o r
mig h t
n o t wish to
be
co mple te d ?
J C :
N o t
n e ce ssa r ily
. . . a n o th e r
wa y
to
pr o ce e d
wo uld be to le a ve
th e
que stio n
o f str uctur e va r ia ble fr o m o n e
pe r so n
to th e n e xt
... I t's
ve r y
simila r to a wa lk in th e
wo r ld ,
o r
th r o ug h
n a tur e .
I f I 'm in th e
wo o d s,
I ca n co me to a
spo t
wh e r e Tr ich o lo ma
pe r so n a tum
is
g r o win g ;
a n d
wh y
isn 't it
g r o win g
o ve r th e r e
wh e r e La cta r ius is
g r o win g ?
Or
wh y,
in th e
wo o d s,
is th e r e a
cle a r in g
o ve r
th e r e ,
but n o t h e r e ? ...
R R : I s th a t a ma tte r o f
r e fle ctin g
o n th e
se que n ce
o f
th in g s?
J C :
I n
music,
o f
co ur se ,
it is.
But,
fr o m a d ista n ce it n e e d n 't be ...
R R : I h a ve a n o th e r
que stio n
r e la te d to
time ,
but I 'm
un h a ppy
th a t
I 'm un a ble to
g e t
a
g r ip
o n wh a t
yo u'r e sa yin g
...
J C :
I th in k
th a t,
in
my
ca se ,
wh a t is
mo stly g o n e
is th e se n se o f
pr o g r e ssio n
fr o m o n e
th in g
to th e n e xt. But in wh a t I 've d e -
scr ibe d to
yo u
th e r e a r e n o w th e se r o o ms wh ich a r e
se pa r a te
. . .a n d in e a ch o n e o f th e m th e succe ssio n is
g o n e ,
but th e
d iffe r e n ce be twe e n th e r o o ms is ...
R R : ... th e ma te r ia l th a t ca n
e me r g e ?
J C :
... I h a ve a vo id e d
impr o visa tio n th r o ug h
mo st o f
my
wo r k. I m-
pr o visa tio n
se e me d to me
n e ce ssa r ily
to h a ve to d o with
me mo r y
a n d
ta ste ,
like s a n d d islike s. Wh a t
d e lig h ts
me in th is
th in g
581
Th e Musica l
Qua r te r ly
th a t I ca ll "str uctur a l
impr o visa tio n "
is th a t th e
pe r fo r me r ,
th e
impr o viso r ,
a n d th e liste n e r to o a r e
d isco ve r in g
th e n a tur e
o f th e str uctur e ...
R R : ... o f th e r o o ms a s a
g r o up
o f o cca sio n s ...
J C :
Yo u co uld
sa y
th a t,
ye s.
R R : ... a n d th e r o o ms a r e d istin ct in te r ms o f th e ir d ur a tio n ..
J C :
... a n d o f th e so un d s in th e m.
R R : Yo u sa id
in str ume n ts,
I
th o ug h t.
Did
yo u
me a n th e me a n s th a t
o n e ca n use to ma ke e ve n ts?
J C :
. .. th e me a n s th a t o n e ca n use to
cla r ify
th e str uctur e .
I h a ve be e n
d o in g
it with th r e e
pie ce s
n o w. On e is ca lle d
"C h ild o f Tr e e ,"
a n d th e r e is a lso "Br a n ch e s." "C h ild o f Tr e e "
is sh o r t a n d "Br a n ch e s" is
a n y le n g th .
I n
Kyo to ,
I
pla ye d
"Br a n ch e s" fo r a n h o ur a n d a h a lf with th e d a n ce
co mpa n y.
I t's d o n e o n ca cti a n d
pla n t
ma te r ia ls. Th e n e w o n e is ca lle d
"I n le ts." I t's d o n e with sh e lls wh ich a r e ma d e to
g ur g le th r o ug h
be in g
fille d with wa te r a n d th e n
tippe d .
We so lve d th e
pr o b-
le m o f th e
a mplifyin g
o f th e se
g ur g le s. Th e y'r e
so
quie t
th a t
th e y
ca n 't be h e a r d
by
a n a ud ie n ce un le ss
th e y
a r e
a mplifie d .
Ye t,
th e n a tur e o f th e so un d is th a t it co me s fr o m a r e so n a n t
ch a mbe r in th e
ve r y
r o o m wh e r e th e
lo ud spe a ke r s
will be a n d
th is
pr o d uce s
th e imma n e n ce o f fe e d ba ck. So it n e e d e d
spe cia l
micr o ph o n e s.
R R : I still wa n t to
g o
ba ck. Th e r e a so n th is
pr e se n ts yo u
with n e w
te mpo r a l e xpe r ie n ce
is th a t str uctur e is
be in g
d e fin e d in a
n e w
wa y?
J C : I mpr o visa tio n
. . . th a t is to
sa y
n o t
th in kin g ,
n o t
usin g
ch a n ce
o pe r a tio n s, just le ttin g
th e so un d
be ,
in th e
spa ce ,
in o r d e r
th a t a
spa ce
ca n be d iffe r e n tia te d fr o m th e n e xt
spa ce
wh ich
wo n 't h a ve th a t so un d in it. I 'm
pe r h a ps
to o
yo un g
a t th is
wo r k to kn o w h o w to d e scr ibe it.
Fr o m o n e
impr o visa tio n
to
a n o th e r ,
n o t
o n ly
th e str uctur e
but th e in str ume n ts co uld
ch a n g e
...
R R : Yo u sa id
r e g a r d in g
C h r istia n Wo lff's n o tio n o f "ze r o time "
582
R e yn o ld s/C a g e
C o n ve r sa tio n
th a t "it is
myste r io us,
a n d th e r e fo r e
e min e n tly
use ful." I n wh a t
wa ys
a r e
myste r io us th in g s
use ful?
J C :
I use d th a t wo r d in
co n tr a stin g
th e
te a ch in g s
o f Mish io Kush i
in ma cr o bio tics
-
wh ich
d e pe n d s
o n
pa ir s
o f
o ppo site s
- a n d
th e
te a ch in g
o f Suzuki wh ich d id n 't. Suzuki
in va r ia bly
le ft
th e
impr e ssio n
in
my
min d a fte r o n e o f h is cla sse s th a t I d id n 't
un d e r sta n d wh a t h e h a d
sa id ,
wh e r e a s Kush i is
ve r y
cle a r . Yo u
kn o w
pr e cise ly
... th a t
yo u o ug h tn 't
to e a t to ma to e s but
yo u
ma y
e a t br o cco li. He 's th a t
spe cific.
Wh e r e a s Suzuki
a lwa ys
ke pt
us
g ue ssin g .
I n
fa ct,
h e
g a ve
a wh o le le ctur e o n th e sub-
je ct
o f n o t
be in g
cle a r .
Fin a lly,
h e
la ug h e d (quie tly).
He
sa id ,
"I sn 't it
fun n y
th a t I co me a ll th e
wa y
fr o m
J a pa n
to
e xpla in
so me th in g
to
yo u
wh ich is n o t to be
e xpla in e d ?"
Wh a t wa s
yo ur que stio n ?
R R : I t wa s
r e g a r d in g
th e use fuln e ss o f th e
myste r io us
...
J C :
We ll,
we
g o imme d ia te ly
-
if we
a cce pt
it
-
in to th e fie ld o f
po e tr y.
. . wh e r e th e
g r o un d
is n o t fixe d . I n te r ms o f th e
I n d ia n r a sa s th e r e a r e th e fo ur wh ite
e mo tio n s,
o f th e
pe r ma -
n e n t
e mo tio n s,
a n d th e fo ur bla ck a n d th e
o n e ,
tr a n quillity,
wh ich must be co mbin e d with th e o th e r s. So
th a t,
if we 'r e in
th a t sta te o f
myste r y,
we 'r e in
wh a t,
in I n d ia n
r a sa s,
is ca lle d
"th e
wo n d r o us";
a n d we a r e a t th e sa me time
tr a n quil.
Th a t
is
ve r y
much like
be in g
in th e sta te o f
po e tr y...
R R : Yo u h a ve
spo ke n
o f th e a ttr a ctio n s o f
ma kin g pr o ce sse s
a s
o ppo se d
to th e
ma kin g
o f
o bje cts,
with ,
fo r
e xa mple , be g in -
n in g s
a n d mid d le s a n d e n d s. I t se e ms a s
th o ug h
ce r ta in
pr o c-
e sse s r e sult in situa tio n s th a t a r e so
str o n g ly
ch a r a cte r ize d a s
to ta ke o n a kin d o f "e ve n tn e ss" o r
"o bje ctn e ss."
Fo r
in sta n ce ,
in th e Etud e s A ustr a le s
yo u
d ir e ct in th e in tr o d uctio n : "Ea ch
h a n d
pla ys
its o wn
pa r t
a n d is n o t to be a ssiste d
by
th e o th e r ."
Give n ma te r ia ls o f
ve r y
wid e
fr e que n cy r a n g e
fo r bo th
h a n d s,
a n
e xtr e me ly
ch a r a cte r istic situa tio n r e sults. Do
yo u
fe e l th a t
pr o ce sse s
so me time s r e sult in
o bje ctlike
situa tio n s?
J C :
Wh a t
yo u sa y
a bo ut a
pr o ce ss g ivin g
th e
impr e ssio n
o f be co m-
in g
a n
o bje ct
is
tr ue ,
a n d it's th a t th a t
ke e ps
th e
wo r ld ,
so to
spe a k, g o in g .
Th a t's
wh y
we
g o
o n to th e n e xt
pr o ce ss,
be ca use
583
Th e Musica l
Qua r te r ly
we n o tice wh e r e th e
[pr e vio us] pr o ce ss g a ve
th e
impr e ssio n
o f
be co min g
a n
o bje ct.
Th a t's
wh y
we
g e t
id e a s a s we
g o a lo n g
d o in g
o ur wo r k
-
to wh ich we 'r e co mmitte d
-
th a t
ma y
le a d
to a
g r e a te r
fr e e d o m in th e n e xt o n e .
On th e o th e r
h a n d ,
in th e
impr o visa tio n
wo r k,
th e
te n d e n cy
is ba ck to wa r d th e
o bje ct,
be ca use th e
pr o ce ss
is,
so to
spe a k,
un -
to uch e d . I t is so fr e e . . . I t's
impr o visa tio n
. . . it's a s
th o ug h
yo ur
h e a d we r e in th e clo ud s. So
yo u ke e p yo ur
fe e t o n th e
e a r th .
(A n d
if
yo ur
fe e t a r e o n th e
e a r th ,
yo u ke e p yo ur
h e a d
in th e
clo ud s.)
Th e r e I 'm ba ck a t Kush i's le ve l o f
th in kin g
...
but n e ve r th e le ss it's so me kin d o f
g uid e .
R R : I n A n n A r bo r I a ske d
yo u
a bo ut th e
pr a ctice
o f so me
co mpo se r s
wh o we r e th e n
be g in n in g
to in tr o d uce ch a n ce o r in d e te r min a te
e le me n ts in to o th e r wise co n tr o lle d
co mpo sitio n s.
I n
a n swe r in g ,
yo u e xpr e sse d
d issa tisfa ctio n with th e
wa y
th is "ma in ta in e d th e
co n ce pt
o f
pa ir s
o f
o ppo site s
a n d th e
pla y
o f th e se
o ppo site s."
La te r , yo u sta te d ,
"I t is
a bso lute ly
e sse n tia l fo r us to
ch a n g e
o ur min d s
fun d a me n ta lly."
Th is,
a n d o th e r a ttitud e s th a t
yo u
h e ld in
1961,
we r e
un co mpr o misin g ,
n o t un like th o se o f th e
Ze n Ma ste r To kusa n wh o
r e spo n d e d
to mo n ks
se e kin g
e n -
lig h te n me n t
with th e
sta te me n t,
"Wh e th e r
yo u spe a k
o r d o
n o t
spe a k, th ir ty
blo ws o f
my
stick a r e
just
th e sa me ." With
r e g a r d
to th e in tr o d uctio n o f
in d e te r min a cy
in to o th e r wise
co n tr o lle d situa tio n s a n d
un co mpr o misin g
a ttitud e s o n
yo ur
pa r t
(in
ce r ta in
r e g a r d s
like
To kusa n ),
I 'm
wo n d e r in g
a bo ut
yo ur pr e se n t
n o tio n to wa r d s
co mpr o mise
a n d
fir mn e ss,
to -
wa r d s th e a ch ie ve me n t o f
fuin d a me n ta l ch a n g e .
Do
yo u
still
fe e l
yo u'r e tr yin g
to
br in g
a bo ut fun d a me n ta l
ch a n g e ?
J C :
I t's th is so r t o f
pe r so n ,
I
th in k,
th a t I a m. But a t
a n y g ive n
mo me n t,
be ca use I a m in th e
pr o ce ss
o f
se a r ch in g ,
I d o n 't kn o w
wh a t to
sa y
in
r e spo n se
to th e
que stio n .
I f I lo o k a t
Sile n ce ,
fo r in sta n ce . I
th in k, "Oh ,
th e
pe r so n
wh o wr o te th a t h a d
ma r ve lo us id e a s." Eve n th e
pe r so n
wh o wr o te A Ye a r Fr o m
Mo n d a y.
I wa s
r e a d in g
th e fo r e wo r d a n d a fte r wo r d o f A Ye a r
Fr o m
Mo n d a y,
a n d I a m
ve r y impr e sse d by
th e
str e n g th
a n d
th e
in spir in g
n a tur e ,
a n d th e
un co mpr o misin g
ch a r a cte r , a n d
so o n . A n d I co uld n 't
h e lp th in kin g ,
"A r e th o se
qua litie s
still
584
R e yn o ld s/C a g e
C o n ve r sa tio n
with me ?"
Th e y ma y
be a n d
th e y ma y
n o t,
wh o a m I to
sa y?
Yo ur
que stio n
is a little bit like
sa yin g ,
"A r e
yo u e n lig h te n e d ?"
R R : I d o n 't th in k so .
Th e mo tiva tio n fo r th e
que stio n
a r ise s fr o m th e id e a o f
yo ur
co n sta n t- in
my
vie w - r e d e fin itio n o f wh a t is r e a so n a ble .
I t's n o t a t a ll un r e a so n a ble to d e cid e th a t to be
un co mpr o -
misin g
is un r e a so n a ble ...
J C :
. . .
A ctua lly
I 'm
ve r y
a n ti-Ge r ma n . On th e o th e r
h a n d ,
I 'm
pr a ctica lly
Ge r ma n ic in
my
in siste n ce o n
d o in g
wh a t is n e ce s-
sa r y
. . . a n d n o t
fo o lin g
a r o un d with
th in g s
th a t a r e a wa ste
o f time !
R R : I t
a ppe a r s
th a t we a r e a ll mo r e a n d mo r e in th e h a bit o f
citin g
o th e r s. Sile n ce wa s a d e ta ile d
r e pr e se n ta tio n
o f
yo ur
vie ws a s
yo u
h a d ch o se n to
pr e se n t
th e m o ve r a
pe r io d
o f d e ca d e s. Mo r e
r e ce n tly, yo u
h a ve o fte n r e ite r a te d th e id e a s o f
r e spe cte d
o th e r s,
mo st
n o ta bly
Th o r e a u.
A lso ,
in th e wr itte n in str uctio n s
pr e ce d in g yo ur
sco r e s,
in d ivid ua l wo r d s a r e
pla ce d
in
quo te s,
a s
th o ug h
d r a wn fr o m a co n te xt o f
me a n in g
so me h o w
sig n ifi-
ca n tly
d iffe r e n t th a n
(I 'll
d o
it)
"co mmo n "
un d e r sta n d in g .
Fo r
e xa mple
". . . 'so un d s' a s it
'lo o ks,'"
th e "illustr a tio n s"
in th e Th o r e a u te xt,
"sh iftin g g e a r s,"
e tc. I t ma d e me wo n d e r
a bo ut wh e th e r we a r e n o w
h a vin g
a cce ss to so me n e w kin d s
o f
pe r h a ps
le ss fo r ma l in fo r ma tio n .
J C :
I d o n 't kn o w wh a t
yo u'r e a skin g .
R R : I 'm
a skin g
a bo ut th e
citin g
o f
o th e r s,
fir st o f a ll. Yo u we r e
just r e fe r r in g
to Sile n ce a n d th e
qua litie s yo u r e co g n ize d
in
wh o e ve r it wa s wh o wr o te th o se
bo o ks,
a n d th is r e min d e d me
o f Buckmin ste r Fulle r 's n o tio n o f th e
co n tin uity
o f
pe r so n a lity
a n d th e
myste r y
o f th a t
co n tin uity.
But
if,
in
fa ct,
my impr e s-
sio n is
co r r e ct,
th e r e h a s be e n a n
in cr e a sin g te n d e n cy
o n
yo ur
pa r t,
in
yo ur wr itin g s,
to cite th e id e a s o f o th e r
pe r so n s,
wh ich
is a lso a
te n d e n cy
o n e fin d s
g r o win g e ve r ywh e r e .
I a d d e d a n -
o th e r d ime n sio n to th e
ph e n o me n o n
o f cita tio n be ca use e ve n
in th e
wa y
we
wr ite ,
I fin d
myse lf,
a n d I se e in
yo ur
in str uc-
tio n s,
mo r e
fr e que n tly
th e use o f
sin g le
wo r d s in
quo te s.
Th is
sug g e sts
th a t
th e y
a r e d r a wn fr o m so me o th e r r e a lm o f me a n -
585
Th e Musica l
Qua r te r ly
in g
n o t fo un d in th e
d ictio n a r y.
A n d I 'm
wo n d e r in g
wh e th e r
th e r e 's so me n e w kin d o f in fo r ma tio n th a t's a va ila ble to us
a n d we h a ve n 't be e n a ble to fo r ma lize n o w.
J C .
I
h o pe
so . Th e
citin g
h a s
a ctua lly
in
my
ca se
g o n e be yo n d
citin g
to
usin g .
I n two o f
my
r e ce n t te xts
(th e
fir st is ca lle d
"Wr itin g th r o ug h Fin n e g a n s
Wa ke " a n d th e se co n d is ca lle d
"Wr itin g
fo r th e Se co n d Time
th r o ug h Fin n e g a n s Wa ke ")
th e wo r d s a r e a ll
J o yce 's
but
th e y
fin d th e n a me o f
"J a me s"
a n d
"J o yce " th r o ug h
th e wh o le bo o k.
Th e y'r e
me so stics. Th e
se co n d o n e is th e sa me
id e a ,
but I
ke pt
a n in d e x o f th e
sylla -
ble s th a t I h a d use d to
e xpr e ss
th e
"J "
o f
"J a me s"
a n d n e ve r
pe r mitte d
a
r e pe titio n .
Th a t r e d uce d th e te xt fr o m 125
pa g e s
(th e le n g th
o f th e fir st
o n e )
to
so me th in g
be twe e n
th ir ty
a n d
fo r ty pa g e s.
Th is h a s
br o ug h t
me
be yo n d citin g J o yce ,
it's
br o ug h t
me to
usin g J o yce .
A n d th e sa me with
Empty
Wo r d s,
wh ich to o k me
o ve r a
ye a r
to wr ite . I wa s
usin g
Th o r e a u,
n o t
just r e a d in g
h im.
Yo u co uld
sa y
th is
be g a n
with th e use o f th e I
C h in g a pa r t
fr o m
r e a d in g
it. A n d th e n in th e
A pa r tme n t
Ho use wh ich I
d id with
R e n g a ,
I use d th e
d r a win g s
o f Th o r e a u in co mbin a -
tio n with th e music o f
Billin g s
a n d La w a n d Fr e n ch a n d
o th e r s,
a n d I fo un d
wa ys
o f
ma kin g
a n e w music
just
a s I 'd fo un d
wa ys
o f
ma kin g
a n e w te xt.
Th is d o e sn 't a cco un t fo r a ll o f
my
r e ce n t
wo r k,
but it a cco un ts
fo r a
la r g e pa r t
o f it
-
th is co n ce r n fo r th e use
o f
th e
pa st
to
ma ke a futur e .
R R : Do e s th is r e la te in
a n y wa y
to th a t r e cur r e n ce o f wo r d s th a t
a r e in
quo te s?
. . .Yo u'r e so
pr e cise
with wo r d s in
yo ur
wr it-
in g ...
J C :
I 'm n o t
quite
cle a r a bo ut
th a t,
be ca use in
my
d ir e ctio n s in
music I 'm
fr e que n tly, d e libe r a te ly a mbig uo us
... o r
va g ue
. ..
o r a lmo st
pr e cise ly va g ue .
R R : Le t's ta ke th a t
ph r a se
"to be
pla ye d
so th a t it 'so un d s' a s it
'lo o ks.'" Wh a t wo uld h a ve be e n d iffe r e n t if
yo u
h a d le ft o ut
th e
quo te s
a r o un d "so un d s" a n d "lo o ks"? ...
J C :
A t th e
pr e se n t
time I ca n 't r e ca ll
wh y
I
put
th e m th e r e . Th e r e
586
R e yn o ld s/C a g e
C o n ve r sa tio n
ce r ta in ly
wa s a
r e a so n ,
o th e r wise I wo uld n 't h a ve
put
th e m
th e r e ,
but a t th e
pr e se n t
mo me n t,
sin ce I 'm n o t
th e r e ,
I d o n 't
kn o w
wh y
I d id it.
R R : Th e r e wa s a n o th e r
e xa mple
in Le ctur e o n th e
We a th e r ,
wh e r e
yo u
me n tio n th e
g r a ph ic
in d ica tio n s. Yo u r e fe r to th e m a s
"illustr a tio n s,"
in
quo te s.
J C :
I
g ue ss
it's be ca use I d o n 't th in k th a t th e wo r d "so un d " o r th e
wo r d "lo o k" th e r e is
pr e cise ,
a n d th e wo r d "illustr a tio n "
is n o
lo n g e r pr e cise
in
my
min d e ith e r . I n th e se
J o yce
te xts,
be ca use o f a
sug g e stio n
fr o m N o r ma n
O. Br o wn ,
I 'm e limi-
n a tin g
th e
pun ctua tio n
fr o m th e me so stics. But in ste a d o f
e limin a tin g
th e m
a lto g e th e r ,
I 'm
br o a d ca stin g
th e m o n th e
pa g e th r o ug h
ch a n ce
o pe r a tio n s.
N o w,
th e
que stio n
is,
is th a t
a n illustr a tio n ? . . . it is a n d it isn 't.
R R : I t h a s to
d o , th e n ,
with a n
e n la r g e me n t
o f o ur
e xpe r ie n ce ,
a n d
in th a t se n se it wo uld fo llo w th e th e me th a t I tr ie d to
sug g e st
a bo ut
yo ur
wo r k a t th e
be g in n in g ,
th a t we a r e mo r e a n d mo r e
willin g
to th in k o f a
la r g e r
n umbe r o f
th in g s
a s r e a so n a ble .
J C :
I h a ve
h o pe d ,
a n d it h a sn 't
a lwa ys
wo r ke d
we ll,
th a t
th r o ug h
th a t kin d o f
g ivin g
o f in str uctio n s
so me th in g mig h t h a ppe n
in
a
pe r so n
th a t wo uld be
o r ig in a l
to h im r a th e r th a n d icta te d
by
me .
On th e o th e r
h a n d ,
a t th e
sug g e stio n
o f Fr e d e r ick
R zwe ski,
wh o h a d a cla ss a t th e C r e a tive Music Fo un d a tio n in
pia n o
pla yin g ,
six o f h is stud e n ts h a d
e r r g a g e d
in
ma kin g
a
pe r -
fo r ma n ce ,
simulta n e o usly,
fr o m
my
So lo
fo r
Pia n o fr o m th e
C o n ce r t
fo r
Pia n o a n d Or ch e str a .
Th e y
h a d a ll ta ke n d iffe r e n t
pa r ts
o f th a t so lo a n d r e a lize d th e m a n d
put
th e
pe r fo r ma n ce
to g e th e r .
Wh e n I h e a r d th e
r e h e a r sa l,
I wa s
sur pr ise d
to se e
th a t o n e
fe llo w,
to wa r d th e
e n d ,
a r r a n g e d
so me
pe r cussio n
in -
str ume n ts a t th e
pia n o
a n d
pr o ce e d e d
to
pla y
a n
o bvio usly
A BA
ch in o ise r ie ...
a bso lute ly
fo o lish ,
th e so r t o f
th in g
th a t I wo uld
by
n o me a n s h a ve in te n d e d . So I a ske d h im a fte r wa r d wh e r e
h e h a d fo un d th e
pe r missio n
to d o th a t in
my
n o ta tio n . He
sh o we d me o n e o f th o se
se g me n ts,
a n d wh e n I
g la n ce d
a t it
quickly,
I sa w th a t it wa s d ifficult to un d e r sta n d a n d th a t it
mig h t
h a ve le d to wh a t h e d id . I t wa s o n e with bo th h o r izo n ta l
587
Th e Musica l
Qua r te r ly
lin e s a n d
a n g le s
th a t we r e ch a n ce
pla ce d -n o t pla ce d
a t
r a n d o m,
but
th r o ug h
th e I
C h in g -a n d
th e r e we r e so me
po in ts
. . . I d id n 't
stud y
it
ca r e fully,
a n d h e cla ime d th a t th a t
h a d
pe r mitte d
h im to d o wh a t h e d id . He
e xpla in e d
it to me .
I
th o ug h t,
we ll,
I 'm
just
n o t a
ve r y g o o d co mpo se r ,
to h a ve
wr itte n d ir e ctio n s in such a
wa y
th a t th is kin d o f
th in g
th a t h e
wa s
d o in g
co uld h a ve
h a ppe n e d .
A fte r
le ttin g
a little time
pa ss,
I we n t ba ck to
h im,
a n d
sa id ,
"N o w sh o w me mo r e
pr e cise ly
wh a t
yo u
we r e
r e a d in g ."
Th e n
I sa w th a t h e wa s
r e a d in g
th e
lin e s,
wh e r e a s I h a d in te n d e d th a t
h e r e a d th e
po in ts.
Th e
po in ts
wo uld
o n ly
h a ve
pe r mitte d
h im
to
pla y
two o r th r e e so un d s in th a t wh o le
time ,
wh e r e a s h e wa s
pla yin g
a wh o le
co mpo sitio n
o f h is in ve n tio n o ut o f th e se lin e s.
We we n t ba ck to th e
be g in n in g
a n d it sh o we d th a t a ll th a t th o se
lin e s me a n t wa s a ch o ice be twe e n so me be a te r s. So th e r e is such
a
th in g
a s
un d e r sta n d in g so me th in g
o f wh a t is
in te n d e d ,
r a th e r
th a n
misun d e r sta n d in g .
C h r istia n Wo lff
h a ppe n e d
to be th e r e
to o ,
a n d h e sa id h e fo un d it
ve r y e n lig h te n in g .
He sa id th a t
a lso in h is
e xpe r ie n ce
wh e n
pe o ple pla ye d th in g s in co r r e ctly,
it wa s be ca use
th e y
h a d n o t un d e r sto o d th e d ir e ctio n s.
Eve n wh e n th e d ir e ctio n s a r e
a mbig uo us th e y
still ca n be un -
d e r sto o d ...
R R : Yo u r e ma r ke d in o ur e a r lie r ta lk th a t A sia n
ph ilo so ph ie s
a r e
"co n ce r n e d with th e
a cce pta n ce
o f
N a tur e ,
n o t its
co n tr o l,"
a n d
th a t,
in
co n tr a st,
A me r ica n s we r e mo r e a ble to "se e th e
po ssi-
bility
o f wh a t
yo u mig h t
ca ll
ir r e spo n sibility."
I h a ve fe lt th a t
A sia n
pa tte r n s
o f
th o ug h t
d o n 't use
"a cce pta n ce "
in th e se n se
o f
"r e sig n a tio n ,"
but mo r e in te r ms o f
pa tie n ce
with
r e g a r d
to
h o w
lo n g th e y ma y
h a ve to wa it fo r sa tisfa ctio n . I wo n d e r if
th e r e is a d istin ctio n be twe e n th e co n tr o l o f
N a tur e ,
wh ich A r t
use d to
a tte mpt,
a n d in flue n ce o ve r h uma n
be in g s
wh ich it
n o w
in cr e a sin g ly
se e ks.
J C :
I 'm in
a g r e e me n t.
We
r e a lly h o pe
th a t A r t ca n
pla y
a
pa r t
in
th e
ch a n g in g
o f min d s so th a t th e wo r ld will be co me a
pla ce
wh e r e a ll o f us ca n
live ,
r a th e r th a n
just
so me o f us.
By
"a ll o f
us" we
in clud e ,
a s th e Or ie n ta ls so
be a utifully
d id ,
th e wo r ld
itse lf,
th e fa ct o f N a tur e . We wo uld like it to co n tin ue in ste a d
588
R e yn o ld s/C a g e
C o n ve r sa tio n
o f
just
be br uta lize d . . . We wo uld like th is e a r th n o t to be -
co me
just
a
g a r ba g e d ump...
R R : Yo u wo uld
e n jo y kn o win g
wh a t To sh i
[I ch iya n a g i]
is
d o in g .
He is
wr itin g
a n d
le ctur in g wid e ly
a bo ut so un d
po llutio n
in
J a pa n .
He h a s wr itte n a bo o k o n it. He is in a sta te o f
pe r so n a l
a g ita tio n ,
a n d
yo u
kn o w wh a t a Buste r Ke a to n ia n so r t o f
fig ur e
h e is...
"Ga r ba g e d ump"
is th e
r ig h t ima g e
. . . Th is is o n e o f th e r e a -
so n s I
th o ug h t
a bo ut th e
po te n tia l misun d e r sta n d in g
o f A sia tic
ph ilo so ph ie s
a n d
"a cce pta n ce ."
To sh i is a n
a ppa r e n tly quie sce n t
pe r so n ,
in ce r ta in
se n se s,
but h e is n o t
a cce ptin g
in th e se n se
o f
r e sig n in g
h imse lf. He is a wa r e o f th e
n e ce ssity
o f e xtr a o r -
d in a r y pa tie n ce .
I n sid e ,
pe r h a ps,
th e A sia n s a r e fa r mo r e fir m
in th e ir id e a ls th a n a r e we ...
J C : ...ye s...
R R : I n o ur e a r lie r ta lk
yo u
sta te d th a t
yo u
h a d d e cid e d "n o t to
ma ke wh a t I ca ll
n e g a tive
o r
po le mica l
a ctio n s,
e ve n wh e n th e
th in g be in g fo ug h t a g a in st
o r cr iticize d is
pa te n tly
e vil." Wh a t
pr o ce ss
o f
th o ug h t
o r
e xpe r ie n ce
h a s
br o ug h t yo u
to th e
po in t
wh e r e
yo u
ch o o se to wr ite wo r ks such a s Le ctur e o n th e
We a th e r wh ich in clud e s
(pa r tly by
ch a n ce ,
pe r h a ps) ve r y str o n g -
ly ph r a se d
cr iticisms, a n d ,
mo r e
impo r ta n tly,
a n
e lo que n t
a n d
po in te d ly
cr itica l in tr o d uctio n th a t
yo u r e quir e
to be r e a d ?
J C :
I t's wh a t
yo u
we r e
sa yin g
a bo ut To sh i. Th e r e 's n o co n tr a d ic-
tio n be twe e n th e se
th in g s
wh ich a r e
co n tr a d ictin g
. . . I f we
ta ke a s th e
g uid e
fo r o ur
th in kin g
a n d
livin g ph ilo so ph y
str uc-
tur e d a s it is in
I n d ia ,
in to
a r th a , ka ma , d h a r ma ,
mo ksh a . I f
we ta ke a Ge r ma n
po in t
o f
vie w,
th e n
e ve r yth in g
must be co n -
siste n t,
but if we ta ke th is I n d ia n
po in t
o f
vie w,
th e n we ca n
spe a k
a bo ut n o t
be in g po le mic,
a n d th e n in sist o n
be in g
po le mic
a t a n o th e r time a n d th o se d iffe r e n ce s d o n 't co n tr a d ict
o n e a n o th e r .
R R : I 'm n o t
a tte mptin g
to un co ve r co n tr a d ictio n s but r a th e r
a skin g
fo r a
r e spo n se .
J C :
I f I 'm in th e situa tio n o f
be in g
a ske d a bo ut th e
po llutio n
o f
th e a ir a n d o f th e wa te r a n d so
fo r th ,
th e n I will
spe a k
in th a t
589
Th e Musica l
Qua r te r ly
d ir e ctio n . I f I a m a ske d to ma ke a
pie ce
a bo ut th e Bice n te n n ia l
a s I wa s
by
To r o n to ,
th e n I ma ke Le ctur e o n th e We a th e r a n d
I
spe a k
o f th e e vil o f
d ivid in g
th e wo r ld in to
n a tio n s,
e tc. But
if I 'm
wr itin g
th e Etud e s
A ustr a le s,
I 'm n o t
o blig e d
to d o th a t.
I t is n o t a s
th o ug h
th e
pr o ble m
h a d be e n
d r o ppe d
a ll
to g e th e r .
Pa r tly
wh a t is me a n t in th e Eta d e s A ustr a le s is th a t we must
wo r k
ve r y
h a r d in o r d e r to
pla y
th is
music,
a n d we must a lso
wo r k
ve r y
h a r d in o r d e r to
pr e se r ve
o ur e n vir o n me n t. Th e r e
a r e ce r ta in co r r e la tio n s be twe e n th o se
th in g s.
R R : ... but th a t wo uld be wh a t
yo u
ca lle d "a ffir ma tive a ctio n s" ...
J C :
...ye s...
R R : . .. wh e r e a s th e Le ctur e o n th e We a th e r is a n a ctio n th a t
ma y
cr e a te a ffir ma tive
r e sult;
but
(pe r h a ps
I misun d e r sto o d
yo ur
o r ig in a l wo r d s)
it str uck me a s
be in g
a fa r mo r e cr itica l a n d
po le mica l
ch o ice th a n
yo u mig h t
h a ve ma d e fifte e n
ye a r s a g o ...
J C :
I t is. But it wa s a n
a ffir ma tio n ,
o n th e o th e r
h a n d ,
o f a n a n -
a r ch ic,
r e vo lutio n a r y po in t
o f
vie w,
a n d o f th e Th o r e a uvia n
po in t
o f vie w.
R R : Yo u've me n tio n e d
ma n y
time s
to d a y
th e I n d ia n
ph ilo so ph ie s.
Ha ve
yo u
be co me mo r e in te r e ste d in th e m?
J C :
I h a ve n e ve r d isca r d e d th e m. Th e id e a s th a t I h a ve e n co un te r e d
in th e
pa st
I
ke e p
un til I d o n 't n e e d
th e m,
a n d th e r e a r e
ma n y
th a t ca me to me fr o m I n d ia th a t I still n e e d . Th a t id e a th a t
yo u
me n tio n e d o f
pa tie n ce
a lso co me s to us fr o m
I n d ia ,
in
my
e xpe r ie n ce .
I mplicit
in Or ie n ta l
ph ilo so ph y
is th e n o tio n th a t time is e ve r -
la stin g .
Th e vie w o f cr e a tio n is so
la r g e
th a t fr o m a We ste r n
po in t
o f vie w
yo u
co uld
just g ive up,
a n d fe e l n o se n se o f
r e spo n sibility
wh a tso e ve r ,
wh e r e a s
th e y
ma in ta in it in th a t
se n se o f
g r a n d
cr e a tio n . Th e
ima g e
o f th e h uma n
be in g
is so
sma ll in th o se C h in e se
la n d sca pe s,
but so
ma g n ifice n t.
R R : Yo u h a ve h a d
pr o d uctive
co lla bo r a tio n s with
pe r so n s
such a s
Da vid
Tud o r ,
Me r ce
C un n in g h a m,
R o be r t
R a usch e n be r g ,
La -
ja r e n
Hille r ,
n o t to me n tio n Suzuki
(wh ich pe r h a ps mig h t
n o t
so much h a ve be e n a
co lla bo r a tio n ).
Th o r e a u h a s sa id in a te xt
590
R e yn o ld s/C a g e
C o n ve r sa tio n
th a t
yo u quo te
in Le ctur e o n th e
We a th e r ,
"Th e
o n ly co o pe r a -
tio n wh ich is
co mmo n ly po ssible
is
e xce e d in g ly pa r tia l
a n d
supe r ficia l,
a n d wh a t little tr ue
co o pe r a tio n
th e r e is is a s if it
we r e
n o t,
be in g
a
h a r mo n y
in a ud ible to me n ." La te r h e
sa ys,
"Th e ma n wh o
g o e s
a lo n e ca n sta r t
to d a y,
but h e wh o tr a ve ls
with a n o th e r must wa it 'til th a t o th e r is
r e a d y,
a n d it
ma y
be
a
lo n g
time be fo r e
th e y g e t
o ff." Wh a t a r e
yo ur pr e se n t th o ug h ts
o n co lla bo r a tio n a n d
co mpr o mise ,
o n th e o n e
h a n d , o r ,
o n th e
o th e r ,
cultiva tin g
a n a wa r e n e ss o f wh a t o th e r s a r e
d o in g
wh ile
co n tin uin g
o n e 's o wn wo r k?
J C :
I
fo llo w,
a n d a m in te r e ste d
in ,
a str o lo g y.
Th o r e a u,
a str o lo g ica lly,
must fe e l th e
wa y
h e
d id ,
th a t h e must
be a lo n e . On e o f th e d ifficult
th in g s
fo r
ma n y pe o ple
a bo ut h is
pe r so n a lity
is th a t h e h a d so much
d ifficulty g e ttin g a lo n g
with
e ve n th o se
ve r y
fin e
pe o ple
th a t we r e th e r e in C o n co r d a t th e
time h e wa s. To n o t fin d Eme r so n
a cce pta ble
wa s h is co n d itio n .
He fo un d n o o n e to h is sa tisfa ctio n .
My
situa tio n is d iffe r e n t. I lo ve to wo r k with o th e r
pe o ple .
I 'm
ve r y sympa th e tic
a n d I
tr y
to
id e n tify
with th e o th e r
pe r so n .
I
tr y
to
ch a n g e myse lf
in o r d e r to d o
so me th in g
th a t will be
just r ig h t
fo r th a t
pe r so n .
I 'm n o w
d o in g
it in th e ca se o f th e
vio lin a n d with Pa ul
Zuko fsky.
I 'm
fin d in g
th a t it
ch a n g e s
me much . . . much . I
h o pe
th a t it will
ch a n g e
Pa ul a little bit
. .. but it is
ch a n g in g
me ,
a n d it will be fr uitful ...
Sa y
th a t I co uld co lla bo r a te with Bo ule z. I th in k it wo uld be
mutua lly a d va n ta g e o us.
R R :
Pe r h a ps
n o t so
d r a ma tica lly
so a s in th e ca se o f Pa ul.
J C . R e a lly?
We ll
th e n ,
ma ybe
I 'm a t th e h e a r t o f th e ma tte r . I 'm
h a vin g
mo r e
d ifficulty
to fin d
my wa y
to wr ite
so me th in g
th a n
I h a ve fo un d be fo r e . But I 'm
d o in g
it. A n d
yo u
kn o w wh a t
it's
le a d in g
me to ? I t's
le a d in g
me to a n
un d e r sta n d in g
o f th e
d a n ce .
Me r ce
C un n in g h a m
a n d I h a ve
e xch a n g e d
id e a s a n d
wa ys
o f
wo r kin g
o ve r th e
ye a r s,
a n d
ye t
it co me s o ut so
d iffe r e n tly
be -
ca use music is fr e e o f th e
pr o ble m
o f
ph ysica lity
th a t th e d a n ce
is in vo lve d in
d e e ply.
Two d a n ce r s
mo vin g quickly
a t
h ig h
591
Th e Musica l
Qua r te r ly
e n e r g y,
if
th e y bump,
h a ve ,
so to
spe a k,
a n a uto mo bile
a ccid e n t,
so th a t
ch o r e o g r a ph y
in a
ve r y
r e a l se n se is a tr a ffic
pr o ble m.
I t ca n 't be le ft
so le ly
to ch a n ce
o pe r a tio n s a n y
mo r e th a n h un t-
in g
mush r o o ms in th e wo o d s ca n be le ft
wh o lly
to ch a n ce
o pe r -
a tio n s. Yo u h a ve to
a r r a n g e
it so th a t
th in g s h a ppe n pr o pe r ly,
in th e
ph ysica l
se n se o f life
a g a in st
d e a th .
A n d th is is wh a t I 'm
co min g
to with Pa ul
Zuko fsky,
be ca use
th e
ve r y
a ct o f
h o ld in g
th e vio lin is so me wh a t
un n a tur a l,
like
sta n d in g
o n o n e 's to e s.
Ye t,
th e
th in g
th a t a ttr a cts me to th e
vio lin is th e
fle xibility
o f
it,
wh ich is
co mpa r a ble o n ly
to th e
fle xibility
o f th e h uma n vo ice . A n d
ye t
th e a ctio n o f
pla yin g
th e vio lin is a s
ba fflin g
a s
d a n cin g .
Ho w d o e s Me r ce wo r k with ch a n ce
o pe r a tio n s
in th e d a n ce ?
He h a d to d o it
d iffe r e n tly
th a n I d id
with ,
sa y,
th e Etud e s
A ustr a le s o r th e Music
o f
C h a n g e s.
I 've d e cid e d to wo r k with
Pa ul a s
th o ug h
I we r e Me r ce
wo r kin g
with a d a n ce r . I n o th e r
wo r d s,
I will
co mpo se
o n th e vio lin ist.
A t fir st I
th o ug h t
th a t Pa ul co uld te ll me a bo ut th e vio lin a n d
I wo uld le a r n
so me th in g
a bo ut it so th a t I co uld
co mpo se ,
a s
usua l,
a t
my
ta ble a n d
a pa r t
fr o m th e in str ume n t. But th e mo r e
h e to ld me a bo ut
it,
th e mo r e
ba fflin g
I fo un d it. I a m
fa milia r ,
a lr e a d y,
with th e fa ct th a t two vio lin ists a r e in
d isa g r e e me n t
a bo ut wh a t th e vio lin ca n d o .
(Th in k
o f th e d iffe r e n ce be twe e n
Ma lco m Go ld ste in a n d Pa ul
Zuko fsky
. . . bo th o f wh o m I
a d mir e .)
Ea ch
pe r so n
is o f co ur se
ve r y
d iffe r e n t a n d
un ique .
I fin d th is is co n n e cte d a lso with
my
n o t
te a ch in g .
Be ca use I
th in k th e stud e n ts a r e in th e sa me situa tio n o f
be in g wh o lly
d iffe r e n t fr o m o n e a n o th e r . Wh e n I d id d o so me
te a ch in g ,
I
be ca me a wa r e o f th e ir d iffe r e n ce s. To sh i
I ch iya n a g i
wa s in th e
cla ss. We we r e
a ppr o a ch in g
th e C h r istma s va ca tio n a n d I
th o ug h t,
"N o w th a t
th e y
h a ve th r e e we e ks to th e mse lve s I ca n
g ive
th e m
so me th in g
to d o . I 'll ma ke a kin d o f summa tio n o f
wh a t I kn o w o f th e m to
g e t
th e m to mo ve ." I
g a ve
wh a t
I
th o ug h t
wa s a
pa r ticula r ly g o o d
se r ie s o f r e ma r ks a bo ut h is
wo r k to
To sh i,
a n d h e
ve r y quie tly
sa id to me , "I a m n o t
yo u."
A s
Sch o e n be r g 's pupils ta ug h t
h im,
so To sh i wa s
te a ch in g
me .
But it's n o t th a t th a t I
o bje ct
to a bo ut
te a ch in g ;
it's th e r e a liza -
592
R e yn o ld s/C a g e
C o n ve r sa tio n
tio n th a t
yo u
ca n 't
r e a lly
te a ch a cla ss. Yo u must te a ch th e in d i-
vid ua ls
se pa r a te ly,
a n d if
yo u'r e g o in g
to d o
th a t,
it ta ke s so
much time th a t I
pe r so n a lly
d e cid e d I d id n 't h a ve time to d o it.
R R : I n
1961,
I
quo te d yo u
a s
sa yin g
th a t "a n e r r o r is
simply
a fa il-
ur e to
a d just imme d ia te ly
fr o m a
pr e co n ce ptio n
to a
r e a lity."
A t a co n fe r e n ce h e ld in Lo s
A n g e le s
se ve r a l
ye a r s a g o ,
R ich a r d
Ho ffma n in tr o d uce d
(with
ce r ta in
d a r in g , co n sid e r in g
th e
pe r -
va sive ve n e r a tio n fo r
Sch o e n be r g
a t th e se
me e tin g s)
th e wo r d
la pse
in
d iscussin g
r o w
ir r e g ula r itie s.
I like d h is
wo r d ,
e spe cia lly
if it we r e un d e r sto o d to a d mit
po sitive
a s we ll a s
n e g a tive ir r e g -
ula r itie s. I t se e ms to me th a t
yo ur co mpo sitio n a l
wo r k r e fle cts
much co n ce r n with
d isciplin e
a n d
r e spo n sibility.
I f
yo u a g r e e ,
wo uld
r ig o r
o f
va r yin g
so r ts
h e lp
to
e xpla in yo ur pe r ple xin g
sta te me n t?
J C :
I fe e l
myse lf
in a cco r d with wh a t se e ms to be th e
spir it
o f
yo ur
que stio n .
I h a ve
r e ce n tly th o ug h t
th a t we r e
Sch o e n be r g
still
a live ,
I co uld
pe r sua d e
h im in co n ve r sa tio n th a t
by
th e use o f
ch a n ce
o pe r a tio n s
I h a ve n o t be e n un fa ith ful to h im a s a d is-
ciplin a r ia n .
I n
fa ct,
th a t I le a r n e d fr o m h im wh a t it wa s th a t
le d me to use ch a n ce
o pe r a tio n s.
He se n t us to th e bo a r d in a cla ss in
h a r mo n y, g ivin g
us a ll a
pr o ble m
in
co un te r po in t.
Th e r e we r e so me
th ir ty pe o ple
in th e
cla ss. He
sa id ,
"Wh e n
yo u
h a ve fin ish e d a
so lutio n ,
sh o w it to
me ,
tur n a r o un d a n d
put up yo ur
h a n d ." I d id
th a t,
a n d h e
sa id ,
"Th a t is co r r e ct. A n d n o w a n o th e r
so lutio n ,"
a n d
a n o th e r ,
a n d
a n o th e r ,
a n d
fin a lly
I sa id to
h im,
wh e n h e a ske d fo r still
a n o th e r ,
with so me
co n fid e n ce ,
"Th e r e a r e n 't
a n y
mo r e so lu-
tio n s." I h a d
a lwa ys wo r sh ippe d
h im. He
r e a lly
se e me d to me
supe r io r
to o th e r h uma n
be in g s.
But n o w h e se e me d e ve n
supe r io r
to h imse lf. He
sa id ,
"Wh a t is th e
pr in ciple un d e r lyin g
a ll o f th e so lutio n s?" I wa s un a ble to a n swe r .
R e ce n tly
I 've co me to th e vie w th a t th e
pr in ciple un d e r lyin g
a ll o f th e so lutio n s is th e
que stio n
th a t we a sk. Th a t's
wh y
I
sa id th a t in th e ca se o f a n
in te r vie w,
th e
impo r ta n t th in g s
a r e
th e
que stio n s,
n o t th e a n swe r s. We ca n a n swe r a
que stio n
in
a n y wa y,
but th e
que stio n s
we a sk will
d e te r min e , so me wh a t,
th e n a tur e o f th e a n swe r .
593
Th e Musica l
Qua r te r ly
I t se e ms to me th a t th a t ma in ta in s th e
d isciplin e ,
be ca use r a th e r
th a n
kn o win g
th e n a tur e o f wh a t it is we 'r e
d o in g ,
we
me r e ly
a sk,
a n d th e n th e a n swe r is
g ive n th r o ug h
ch a n ce
o pe r a tio n s.
A n d th e r e sult is th a t in ste a d o f
r e ma in in g
wh a t we
we r e ,
we
po ssibly ch a n g e .
R R :
On ly
if we a ct with co n fid e n ce
r e g a r d in g
o ur
r e spo n sibilitie s
to th e
que stio n
th a t h a s be e n a ske d .
J C :
We must d o th a t. Th a t's
g ive n .
I t
sa ys
in th e I
C h in g
th a t if
yo u
d o n 't
a cce pt
th e
a n swe r ,
th a t
yo u
h a ve n o
r ig h t
to a sk
a g a in .
I h a ve n e ve r use d ch a n ce
o pe r a tio n s
to a r r ive a t a
pr e co n ce ive d
g o a l.
I n o th e r
wo r d s,
I 've n e ve r be e n in th e situa tio n o f n o t
likin g ,
a n d be ca use I d id n 't
like ,
ch a n g in g
th e a n swe r s I r e -
ce ive d . I h a ve so me time s r e n o un ce d th e
que stio n s
th a t I 've
a ske d . I h a ve th r o wn
a wa y
so me
wo r k,
se e in g
th a t it wa s
tr ivia l,
sin ce I h a d n o t fo un d th e
pr o pe r que stio n s.
But I 've n e ve r
th r o wn
a wa y
th e a n swe r s to th e
que stio n s
th a t I 've co n sid e r e d
to be use ful
que stio n s
to a sk.
R R : ... a n d th e co n n e ctio n with th e
Sch o e n be r g e xa mple ?
Yo u sa id
yo u
be lie ve d th a t if
Sch o e n be r g
we r e
a live ,
yo u
co uld ...
J C :
. .. te ll h im th a t th e
pr in ciple un d e r lyin g
a ll o f th e so lutio n s
wa s th e
que stio n
th a t wa s a ske d . Th e
que stio n
is th e
pr in ciple .
R R : I wa s
a skin g
a bo ut
r e spo n sibility
a n d
d isciplin e
...
J C : Pe r h a ps
we a r e n 't cle a r a bo ut wh a t a
d isciplin e
is. I se e a d is-
ciplin e
a s
be in g
a
d isciplin e
o f th e
e g o ,
so th a t wh a t
h a ppe n s
is n o t a
r e pr e se n ta tio n
o f th e like s a n d d islike s o f th e
e g o .
A n d
I se e th e clo se n e ss be twe e n th e wo r d
d isciplin e
a n d
d isciple ,
a n d be twe e n
yo g a
a n d
yo ke .
Wh a t is co n ce r n e d in e a ch ca se
is th e
e g o
th a t is
be in g
co n tr o lle d in such a
wa y
th a t it will n o t
a ct a s a ba r r ie r to its
e xpe r ie n ce ,
but th a t it itse lf will
ch a n g e .
I n o th e r wo r d s,
d isciplin e
is
implicit
in th e id e a o f a
que stio n
a s
o ppo se d
to a ch o ice .
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