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BBC Radio 4 CURRENT AA!R"
ANA#$"!"
or the children
TRAN"CR!PT % A REC%R&E& &%CU'ENTAR$
Presenter( &a)id *al+er
Producer( ,im ran+
Editor( Nicola 'eyric+
BBC
*hite City
-./ *ood #ane
#ondon
*/- 0T"
.-. 102- 3-2-
Broadcast &ate( /4th No)ember -..-
Repeat &ate( /3th No)ember -..-
Tape Number(
&uration( 4.5
Ta+ing part in order of appearance(
'ary 'arsh
&irector of the National "ociety for the Pre)ention of Cruelty to
Children
Barry 'ayall
Professor of Childhood "tudies at the !nstitute of Education
&enise Platt
Chief !nspector of "ocial "er)ices
Peter Clar+e
Children5s Commissioner for *ales
'i+e #eadbetter
President of the Association of &irectors of "ocial "er)ices
Colin 6ey7ood
6istorian at Nottingham Uni)ersity8 author of 96istory of Childhood5
6ilary #and
Professor of amily at Bristol Uni)ersity
Robert *helan
amily $outh Concern
ANA#$"!" ( *hat about the Children:
&A;!& *A#<ER
%ne 7ay or another this autumn8 the +ids are not alright.
'AR$ 'AR"6(
*e are ambi)alent about children= at times 7e see+ to loo+8 loo+ out for them
and portray them as being sort of precious angels that need e>treme
protection and then in8 a fe7 days later8 you?ll see stories of children
presented in the media 7here they?re seen as being8 you +no78 children 7ho
are demonised because they are up to8 up to no good.
BARR$ 'A$A##(
There?s a sense that children constitute a problem. They?re a social problem
that?s got to be sol)ed.
&A;!& *A#<ER
Barry 'ayall8 Professor of Childhood "tudies at the !nstitute of Education8 preceded by 'ary
'arsh8 &irector of the National "ociety for the Pre)ention of Cruelty to Children. 'ean7hile8
the Chief !nspector of "ocial "er)ices8 &enise Platt8 has been on her holidays.
&EN!"E P#ATT(
*hene)er ! )isit other European countries8 particularly !taly8 "pain8 ! notice that children are
treated )ery differently. $ou can eat in a restaurant in !taly8 and e)erybody in the restaurant is
+eeping their eye on e)erybody else?s children8 and similar things happen in "pain. !t does seem
to me that in some other countries there are more rela>ed and )aluing attitudes to7ards children.
*hen ! 7al+ round supermar+ets and see children in prams8 sort of crying and acting out and
generally getting on a parent?s ner)es and the first response is a 7hac+8 it?s8 it?s not something
you see often 7hen you?re tra)elling.
&A;!& *A#<ER
The report of the official en@uiry into the death of ;ictoria Climbie is due out in a fe7 7ee+s.
!t?s li+ely to sharpen public an>iety8 already stirred by the murder of ,essica Chapman and
6olly *ells8 the paedophile panics8 and the rush to register adults 7ho loo+ after children. But
this programme isn?t about child protection so much as that ambi)alence 7e?)e Aust heard
about. Children aren?t subordinate any longer. Though insubordination angers adults8 there?s
gro7ing recognition in la7 and in policy that children ha)e rights. But ho78 ! as+ed the
N"PCC?s 'ary 'arsh8 does that s@uare 7ith the season?s panic+y sense8 children are so
desperately )ulnerable.
'AR$ 'AR"6(
!f you start anticipating being a )ictim8 you do8 it can often lead to you being one 7hen you don?t
necessarily need to be. ! thin+ the )ie7 of the child as8 as a )ictim 7ill be a )ery unfortunate
one8 7e need to see children as independent people 7ho ha)e a right to life8 ha)e a right to a
freedom and freedom of e>pression8 freedom of e>perience8 and they also ha)e a right to be
protected from )iolence and fear8 and so that?s 7hy there is a community responsibility8 that?s
7hy the protection of children is e)eryone?s responsibility8 it doesn?t Aust fall to the8 their direct
parents or carers or people in sort of8 you +no78 statutory positions of authority. Protection of
our children belongs to all of us right across the community.
&A;!& *A#<ER
But isn?t it a bit nai)e to tal+ about the community ha)ing obligations to7ards children.
Community8 as 7e?)e seen in the Bulger case or recent paedophile agitation8 has a )indicti)e
side to it. !sn?t the problem that society isn?t coming to terms 7ith those rights she tal+ed about8
because 7e?re fi>ated on abuse and the need to protect children8 7hich the N"PCC is sometimes
accused of e>aggerating8 for abuse is8 after all8 its rationale. !n mid picture sits the state8
educator8 gaoler8 protector8 sometimes the only friend a neglected child has8 but8 loo+ at the
residential homes scandals8 often an unreliable substitute parent. !n one part of the United
<ingdom8 there?s no7 a go)ernment official charged 7ith promoting children?s rights8 a Aob
created after disclosures about the treatment of children in care. Peter Clar+e is Children?s
Commissioner for *ales. &oes he thin+ rights and ris+ are running in different directions.
PETER C#AR<E(
! 7ould be the last one to argue that 7e should not ha)e proper and effecti)e systems to protect
children from some of the fundamental and dreadful abuses that8 that 7e +no7 go on8 but ! do
thin+8 and also the e)ents of this summer ha)e also reinforced this )ie78 that 7e are in danger
sometimes perhaps of feeling that 7e need to constrict our children?s acti)ity an a7ful lot in
order to protect them8 and ! do 7onder if some of the things8 more positi)e things couldn?t be
done to actually enable them to ha)e a )oice more generally in their li)es so that they?re more
li+ely to be forthcoming 7hen they are in danger of being abused. This is not simple and8 ! don?t
7ant to Aust gi)e a trite ans7er to it8 but ! thin+ 7e?)e got to start e>ploring those things. ! see no
fundamental conflict bet7een asserting children?s rights and among them the8 the right to
participation8 and also protecting children.
&A;!& *A#<ER
Children must be heard. But ho7 little 7e +no7 of 7hat happens inside of real families8 more
listening8 less telling. 'y sense is our public con)ersation about and 7ith children hasn?t
caught up 7ith the 7ay parents and their children ha)e been happily and peaceably
renegotiating terms8 in most families that is. Tal+ing about parents that shout and hit8 7e must
+eep a sense of proportion8 says 'i+e #eadbetter8 president of the Association of &irectors of
"ocial "er)ices.
'!<E #EA&BETTER(
or people li+e me 7ho ha)e 7or+ed at the sharp end for years and years8 7e ha)e to hold a
balance bet7een the terrible pain 7e see that is done to adults 7ho come to us8 and children8
7ho ha)e been abused8 to the fact that 7e are a relati)ely safe country and 7e?re one of the
safest countries in Europe in 7hich to li)e8 and balancing that and holding those t7o constructs
together8 that it?s dangerous for some children8 but for most children it?s absolutely fine. The
reality is that childhood is messy8 it?s not a clear progression8 there are times 7hen children need
inter)ention and protection8 times they need support8 times they need space to play and ta+e
ris+s.
&A;!& *A#<ER
6is point needs emphasising. At no time in their li)es are females safer8 in terms of accident8
attac+ or illness8 than bet7een the ages of fi)e and fifteen. The number of children classed as
neglected by the &epartment of 6ealth may be too many8 but remains a tiny fraction of the total.
A fifth of children do8 ho7e)er8 li)e in poor households. The abolition of child po)erty 7ithin
t7o decades has been one of the present go)ernment?s headline promises8 comforting those 7ho
define lac+ of money as a +ind of abuse. Affluent or not8 7e?)e no clear sense of 7hen childhood
ends and 7hat it consists in. &id 7e e)er: 6o7 should 7e 7eigh the impact of technology and
material progress on +ids: Colin 6ey7ood from Nottingham Uni)ersity is author of the
recently published 6istory of Childhood.
C%#!N 6E$*%%&(
%n the one hand you8 you could say that children in the past undoubtedly had to create their o7n
entertainments8 their o7n toys8 they 7ould go out into the fields8 into the 7oods and amuse
themsel)es8 perhaps this could be @uite )iolent 7ays of you +no78 +illing little animals and so
on8 7hilst no7adays there is a much more elaborate type of series of toys8 children?s
programmes on tele)ision8 games for computers. ! suppose on the other hand you?d ha)e to
point out that in the past8 children had a )ery narro7 )ision of the 7orld8 that they 7ould +no7
their )illage8 their neighbourhood of a to7n8 they 7ould +no7 a lot about the 7ildlife in their
area8 ho7 you raised crops in your area and so on8 but their 7ider )ision of the nation8 7hat 7as
going on abroad8 ne7 de)elopments8 ne7 +no7ledge and so on8 Aust 7as not8 that 7as Aust not
a)ailable to them.
There?s a common )ie7 that modernity8 especially in this country8 hasn?t treated children 7ell=
paedophiles8 internet porn8 tele)ision8 traffic and all8 and it?s cars 7hich probably +ill more of
those 7ild animals no7. Childhood died in the /B3.s according to one cultural pessimist.
undamental ris+8 the chances of contracting a life threatening disease8 say8 shran+
dramatically during the t7entieth century but some8 the N"PCC?s 'ary 'arsh among them8
argue social change has diminished children?s room for li)ing.
'AR$ 'AR"6(
*here things are more difficult for children no7adays is that the communities in 7hich they
li)e8 e)erybody is less 7ell +no7n to each other8 and ! thin+ the8 the natural upbringing for
children8 you +no7 the African saying about the )illage8 it ta+es a 7hole )illage to bring up a
child8 it?s much harder in today?s society for children to be in those +ind of community conte>ts8
and ! thin+ instead of that Aust happening because a community gro7s together cos e)eryone
+no7s each other8 ! thin+ 7e acti)ely ha)e to set about creating that +ind of community for
children8 and so the important thing is that 7e ma+e the communities in 7hich they gro7 up
safe and supporti)e8 and then 7e are able to gi)e them more freedom in it. The danger at the
moment is that e)eryone is so an>ious about protecting children8 7e8 7e?re so much more
concerned no7adays about ris+ than 7e e)er 7ere8 that 7e end up not gi)ing them proper space
and independence in 7hich they can gro7 up properly8 and ! thin+ 7hen they?re in their teenage
years8 they are going to be highly at ris+ if they ha)en?t had some space and independence earlier
in their li)es.
&A;!& *A#<ER
There?s the danger of fi>ation on child murder and )iolence. But ho7 much space8 ho7 early:
'ary 'arsh has Aust gi)en us a )ersion of the prelapsarian myth8 things ain?t 7ot they used to
be. 6istorian Colin 6ey7ood +no7s that8 if all good children deser)e fa)our8 goodness used to
be in short supply.
C%#!N 6E$*%%&(
%ne of the big changes in childhood in the long term is that8 if 7e go bac+ to the si>teenth and
se)enteenth century as the starting point8 there 7as a8 a tendency to regard children as essentially
e)il. They 7ere still tainted by original sin8 and the role of parents 7as to brea+ them in8 so you
had to brea+ the 7ill of this essentially e)il child8 and hence you had a rather8 a spartan mode of
child rearing. Then from Russeau8 *ords7orth8 &ic+ens and so on8 you ha)e the notion that
children are essentially innocent8 and that means they?re not corrupted by the adult 7orld8 they
are not tainted by original sin8 their heads are not full of lasci)ious8 gluttonous thoughts and so
on and you did ha)e this tremendous sentimentalisation of childhood8 7here children 7ere
regarded as8 if you li+e8 little angels8 7here you tried at least to protect them as far as possible8
7ell the 7orld of se>uality8 but the 7orld of 7or+8 the unpleasant side of life.
&A;!& *A#<ER
But is labelling se>uality as part of the unpleasant side of life a @uir+ of these islands. At the
start of the programme8 7e heard a tra)eller?s tale8 oft told8 about ho7 children are treated
abroad. 6ilary #and is Professor of amily Policy at Bristol Uni)ersity. !s there a distinctly
British 7ay 7ith +ids.
6!#AR$ #AN&(
! thin+ 7e?re different in some respects8 ! thin+ compared 7ith many other European countries
7e8 7e don?t listen to children perhaps as carefully as some other countries do8 and ! thin+
perhaps sometimes8 7e?re8 7e too easily 7ant to e>pel the difficult children8 7hether that goes
bac+ to the time 7hen 7e had an empire and 7e literally emigrated poor la7 children8 children
7ho 7ere delin@uent and sent them off the Canada or Australia or 7here)er8 7here there 7as a
labour shortage8 so 7e literally got rid of the problem of8 of a7+7ard or difficult or poor
children. *hether something still lingers there of8 7ell if only 7e could get rid of them8 or if 7e
could only put them some7here else8 then 7e8 the rest of us could get on and li)e our li)es in a
proper 7ay.
&A;!& *A#<ER
Neither seen nor heard. "ome predict social intolerance of children 7ill get 7orse. The U<?s
demographic balance is shifting. *rin+lies outnumber smooths+inned youth8 but you could
argue so far ho7 little sign of intergenerational conflict there?s been. Benefits for children and
their carers ha)e been an intense focus of Chancellor Cordon Bro7n8 and pensions. Professor
6ilary #and says children ha)e older allies.
6!#AR$ #AN&(
*ell ! don?t see that8 that children and old peoples in this respect are necessarily at odds8 before
e>ample ! mean it?s8 7hat is it8 something li+e only eighteen percent of the population no7 ha)e
access to a good8 safe public par+. No7 if one impro)ed that8 it 7ouldn?t Aust be children 7ho
7ould benefit= old people 7ould also benefit. !f roads and streets 7eren?t so dangerous in terms
of traffic8 it 7ould mean that old people could be more mobile as 7ell as children 7ould be
more mobile8 so ! don?t thin+ 7e should al7ays sort of pose the old )ersus the young.
&A;!& *A#<ER
$ou could run an analogy 7ith 6ilary #and?s par+ in terms of rights. ,ust as age discrimination
is on its 7ay out and the dignity of older citiDens is more cherished8 so the broader rights
agenda has scooped up younger citiDens too. !t 7ould ha)e been odd if the 6uman Rights Act
had arri)ed 7ithout more attention being paid to the formal status of children. Policy has
certainly mo)ed. *here smac+ing children isn?t actually illegal8 it?s hea)ily censured. The U<
adheres to the United Nations Con)ention on the rights of the child. As+ing if go)ernment has
follo7ed or led this unmista+eable shift in sensibility in the direction of recognising the
personal and ci)ic autonomy of children8 7e say Tory go)ernment too. !t 7as under 'rs.
Thatcher the Children Act first ga)e significant recognition to the indi)iduality of children o)er
against both their parents and the "tate and then8 last year8 came the appointment of the U<?s
first official ad)ocate for children8 Peter Clar+e.
PETER C#AR<E(
Part of it is actually 7ritten into the Act in the regulations for instance that ! should tell children
7hat their rights are throughout *ales under the UN Con)ention8 and more generally really to
ad)ocate for them and to argue amongst other things that they should8 for instance8 ha)e their
)oice heard 7hen decisions are being made that affect them8 that they should be allo7ed to
participate more in decisions that affect them8 and let?s be clear8 !?m not saying that children
should decide e)erything8 e)en 7e adults8 of course8 don?t do that8 but there are clear areas
7here 7e could ta+e a lot more notice of 7hat our children are telling us. An e>ample perhaps
7ould be8 you +no78 in the last t7o elections8 education has been a hugely significant element
in8 in the debates going on and yet8 )ery rarely did one e)er hear children and young people?s
)oices actually participating in that debate8 although8 arguably8 they?re the primary sta+eholders.
&A;!& *A#<ER
That could ma+e your Aob potentially re)olutionary8 if you?re going to go round public policies8
education8 transport8 7hate)er and8 as it 7ere8 articulate the interests of the child. 6o7 far
do7n that road should 7e en)isage you going:
PETER C#AR<E(
That?s a )ery good @uestion and ! thin+ a part of my role is e>ploratory in that regard8 but ! thin+
7e could go a lot further do7n that road than 7e are currently doing. ! thin+ that children should
be in)ol)ed more directly8 ! do thin+ there is8 is a sense in 7hich this is re)olutionary but
perhaps only re)olutionary in thought in the first instance.
&A;!& *A#<ER
There?s a @uestion here 7hich 7e?ll come bac+ to about ho7 far the "tate should lead in shifting
public attitudes to7ards greater acceptance of children?s rights. But first8 is go)ernment itself
coherent about +ids. &espite inter)ening in children?s li)es in so many 7ays8 the "tate isn?t
Aoined up. That charge is ans7ered by &enise Platt8 7ho is the most senior ci)il ser)ant directly
concerned 7ith children.
&EN!"E P#ATT(
All the things that 7e do in go)ernment departments affect children?s li)es daily8 7hether it?s
about traffic8 7hether it?s about transport8 7hether it?s about social ser)ices8 7hether it?s about
education. E)erything that 7e do 7ill ha)e an impact on the li)es of children and it?s )ery
difficult to see ho7 you could corral that interest in one go)ernment department.
&A;!& *A#<ER
That said8 7ould you agree 7ith 7hat effecti)ely the *elsh Assembly has done8 and that?s to
create a specific position of someone 7hose Aob it formally is to ad)ocate children?s interests
7ithin the machinery of go)ernment.
&EN!"E P#ATT(
*ell ! ha)e seen 7hat has happened to some central go)ernment tDars8 and ho7 they ha)e
e>ercised their influence or ha)e not e>ercised their influence8 and ! thin+ it?s )ery difficult to be
one person ad)ocating an issue 7ithin go)ernment. Certainly8 ! +no7 from my 7or+ as Chief
!nspector of "ocial "er)ices8 that if e)erybody thin+s social ser)ices is tac+ling they rela> and
don?t do 7hat they?re supposed to do in those children?s ser)ices8 so if you thin+ there?s one
person 7ho has the responsibility8 you can rela> your o7n responsibilities8 and children are the
responsibility of e)eryone in go)ernment and 7e all need to understand that.
&A;!& *A#<ER
But 7hat if the )ery idea of children8 or rather childhood8 held in )arious go)ernment
departments8 is different. The N6" national ser)ice frame7or+ for children encourages doctors
and nurses to tal+ more to their young patients. They treat children in the present tense8 not as
7hat they might become. !t?s different in schools8 says Barry 'ayall8 of the !nstitute of
Education in #ondon.
BARR$ 'A$A##(
The Education Reform Act of /B118 7hich put in place a national curriculum and a lot of testing
and competition bet7een schools and so called parental choice certainly positioned children as
obAects of the education system and ! thin+ their )oice has been )ery little heard. Children don?t
spea+ as much as they did8 they don?t engage in con)ersations 7ith teachers as much as they did
and if you thin+ that people learn through interaction 7ith other people8 )erbal interaction 7ith
other people8 then children?s ability to thin+8 to participate in the learning process8 is at ris+8 and
some people thin+ that the national curriculum and the 7ay it?s been proposed to teachers is
counter producti)e.
&A;!& *A#<ER
But educational attainment has risen8 7hich you could see as children being empo7ered.
"chools aren?t8 on the 7hole8 authoritarian hellholes. !n the daily8 practical li)es of many
schools8 sensible teachers listen and negotiate. 'any ha)e functioning school councils and do
7elcome )oice8 up to a point. Participation might e)en accelerate as this ne7 autumn?s ne7
re@uirement for citiDenship education beds do7n. !t?s e>traordinary ho7 this contradictory and
sub)ersi)e idea of rights8 a curious mi>ture of indi)idualism and collecti)ism8 has gone so
unchallenged. %f course8 it hasn?t been 7ithout its critics= Robert *helan of amily $outh
Concern among them.
R%BERT *6E#AN(
! 7ould say the most important right for children is the right to be brought up by t7o parents in
a stable home and that8 that is the right that the Children?s Rights Ad)ocates don?t seem to be
)ery interested in8 because many of the problems 7hich the Children?s Rights lobby are trying to
address8 for e>ample8 child abuse8 a )ery serious problem8 are often the result of the brea+do7n
of a family and 7hich lea)es children e>posed to predatory older people. ! don?t thin+ rights
ha)e to be collecti)ist. !t?s a truism to say that rights go 7ith responsibilities8 but of course 7ith8
7ith children8 certainly 7ith )ery young children8 you can?t really say they ha)e responsibilities
to discharge on their o7n behalf8 it?s their parents 7ho ha)e the responsibilities to ma+e sure
that they?re cared for. ! thin+ 7hat sometimes gets lost sight of is that8 rather than tal+ing about
children?s rights all the time8 it 7ould be better if 7e addressed children?s needs8 they need to be
cared for8 lo)ed8 protected8 this seems to be 7ell not really on the8 on the agenda8 7e are
becoming )ery legalistic ! thin+ in treating children as autonomous indi)iduals8 7hen it might
be more helpful to as+8 7ho is caring for this child:
&A;!& *A#<ER
But 7hen homes aren?t stable and children?s needs aren?t met8 he?s surely right about the
disAunction bet7een rights and needs8 the state has to step in8 Aust as it steps in to insist children
are sent to school. But the "tate is also percei)ed as a sol)ent of the natural bonds bet7een
parents and children
R%BERT *6E#AN(
The practical effect of this drift in public policy has been to increase the role of the state and to
undermine the parents and our8 our society8 7e are )ery often contacted by parents 7hose
children are8 they feel8 out of control8 and they don?t +no7 7hat to do8 and sometimes they?)e
tried to act8 perhaps in a not )ery sophisticated 7ay and they find themsel)es in terrible trouble
7ith social ser)ices8 children are ta+en a7ay and they8 they feel po7erless and they say 7hat can
7e do and the ans7er is actually8 )ery little. %nce8 once the machinery s7ings into action8 the8
the role of the parent is not regarded as being terribly significant8 it?s the opinion of the
professionals dealing 7ith the child 7hich tends to ta+e precedence.
&A;!& *A#<ER
Robert *helan. But to ans7er his point8 the state s7ings into action because of the pressure of
public opinion that some be done. Community doesn?t 7or+8 it may not e)en e>ist. or the child
to be sa)ed8 it has to be the state. But the public remains deeply ambi)alent8 yearning for a
7orld of happy families8 ma+ing scapegoats of the social 7or+ers 7ho symbolise the failure of
those natural bonds 7e Aust heard about. or 'i+e #eadbetter8 &irector of "ocial "er)ices for
the county of Esse>8 the rationale for inter)ention remains compelling.
'!<E #EA&BETTER(
! damn 7ell thin+ the state should inter)ene. ! sometimes loo+ at the children 7e?re responsible
for and thin+ you could de)elop into a person 7ho could find a cure for blindness8 or 7ho can
ma+e a contribution to7ards the third 7orld8 and unless 7e gi)e you the chance to reach your
potential8 7e fail you.
&A;!& *A#<ER
6e may sound optimistic8 the state also mobilises8 at the behest of agitated public opinion8 to
stop8 arrest8 and imprison children and young people. A formidable apparatus of youth Austice
has been created to punish and restrain. Ad)ocates of children?s rights are confused about rat
boy and his li+e. !f 7e are to respect their autonomy8 perhaps 7e also need to hold them liable
for criminal actions. Peter Clar+e8 the *ales Children?s Rights Commissioner8 thin+s more
adult child con)ersation is needed8 especially 7ithin the public space.
PETER C#AR<E(
*hat does sadden me is ho7 often children are in the ne7s because of issues around control8
7e seem to be )ery8 )ery focused on ho7 7e control children in this country8 and yet8 and my
daily e>perience sho7s me this8 children are also a huge creati)e resource. !t?s often said they?re
the future8 7hich they are8 but they?re here no78 and actually they could help us if 7e can only
engage 7ith them in a proper and meaningful 7ay8 they could help us to impro)e ser)ices li+e
our education ser)ice and so many other things8 but ! thin+ 7e?re going to ha)e to change our
attitudes rather if 7e?re going to ta+e ad)antage of that creati)e po7er that they represent.
&A;!& *A#<ER
!t?s an aspiration 7hich 7ill ha)e to fight hard to be heard in the ne>t fe7 months8 as the
Clambier case and the bureaucracy of child protection get ra+ed o)er. There?s a mo)e to create
ne7 children?s trusts8 better to Aoin together police8 social ser)ices8 doctors8 all 7ho deal 7ith
children at ris+. But 7hat happens to case notes 7hile offices are redone and filing cabinets
mo)ed about. &enise Platt counsels caution.
&EN!"E P#ATT(
*e +no7 in indi)idual social ser)ices department 7here there are internal reorganisations that
staff become )ery preoccupied 7ith 7hat?s happening to them8 understandably8 and cases get
transferred bet7een teams and bet7een indi)iduals and the momentum around indi)idual
children is lost8 so if there is going to be a repositioning8 and if that means restructuring8 people
need to be )ery clear 7hat it is that they?re trying to achie)e by a different arrangement of these
ser)ices8 because they8 the haDardous route to achie)e change could actually compromise the
safety of a considerable number of children.
&A;!& *A#<ER
! as+ed earlier ho7 far the "tate should see+ to change8 ci)ilise public attitudes to7ards
children. Perhaps the @uestion should be put this 7ay. Public opinion8 7hich isn?t the same at
all as ho7 people beha)e to7ards their o7n children at home8 is uncertain8 confused and8 as
7e?)e seen this year8 gets e>pressed in mass an>iety about ris+ and se> attac+s8 orchestrated by
ne7spapers. Can go)ernment ta+e a 7ider8 cooler8 e)en a +inder and gentler )ie7 of children
7hen the headlines scream: Not only can8 but should8 says &enise Platt.
&EN!"E P#ATT(
As a group8 children ha)e immense strength and an immense contribution to ma+e an
sometimes 7e only see children in terms of citiDens tomorro7 rather than )aluable contributors
today8 and the same neighbourhoods that 7ill be crying to protect children 7ill the day
pre)iously ha)e been complaining about them riding their bi+es on the pa)ement and creating a
nuisance8 so there is8 there is a dilemma8 ! thin+8 here8 for the public policy ma+er around public
attitudes to7ards children. ! thin+ policy ma+ers are perhaps clearer about their attitudes
to7ards children and the general public.
&A;!& *A#<ER
! mean 7ould you say something 7hich your political masters couldn?t say8 7hich is that the
public often spea+s 7ith the pro)erbial for+ed tongue8 for e>ample8 as you say8 great agitation
about the )ulnerability of children8 the protection of children one day8 the ne>t day8 7hen those
self same children may be a fe7 years older8 appear to be the perpetrators of crime8 let?s bang
them up8 let?s punish them se)erely and those t7o attitudes clearly are inconsistent8 to put it
mildly.
&EN!"E P#ATT(
$es they are8 yes8 that?s e>actly 7hat !?m saying8 and if you?re trying to8 to ha)e a policy that
reflects public attitudes8 then you 7ill get confused policy. There is a leadership role for
go)ernment here around ser)ices for children and around supporting the contribution that
children ma+e8 as children8 and helping to protect them and gi)ing them e)ery opportunity to do
the best in life8 and ! thin+ that is the mainstream policy but sometimes8 the public debate can be
hiAac+ed by a more populist agenda.
&A;!& *A#<ER
!t sounds li+e 7e need to tal+ more about and 7ith children8 7hose o7n )oices8 !?m a7are8
you?)e not heard in this programme. The boundary bet7een authority and autonomy8 direction
and de)elopment8 is shifting. "ome8 a small number of children8 fall )ictim to predators and
parents8 but concern for them mustn?t distract us8 and the go)ernment8 from renegotiating the
terms of our intergenerational engagement.