N 24 - November 2012

! Anniversary E"tion

This is not a traditional marketing research or study. This is a different thing. What we do is called a Discovery: we discover something that is there but we cannot see it.
Dr. Clotaire Rapaille

Dr. Clotaire Rapaille

Interviewed by Fernando Luzio To celebrate the rst birthday of our Program, we went to New York especially to interview Dr. Rapaille, the founder, CEO and chairman of Archetype Discoveries Worldwide. We have had the opportunity to work with Dr. Rapaille for two years, breaking strategic Codes for companies in USA and Brazil. We are also celebrating the signature of a new agreement between Luzio Strategy Consulting and Archetype Discoveries Worldwide, to become again their afliated rm in Brazil. Dr. Gilbert Clotaire Rapaille is an internationally known expert in Cultural Archetypes, Creativity and Innovation who founded the Archetype Discoveries Worldwide in 1976. Based in Tuxedo (NYC), Archetype has

Founder and CEO of Archetype Discoveries Worldwide

associated ofces in Belgium, China, Turkey, England, Paris, Mexico, Italy, India, South Korea, Southeast Asia, Russia and Brazil. Dr. Rapaille introduced a breakthrough concept to the corporate world: the Culture Code, which has proved to be a powerful methodology for more than half of the Fortune 500 companies, such as Boeing, L ' O re a l , G e n e r a l M o t o r s, AT&T, Citibank, Chrysler, Colgate, Fox, Kraft General Foods. His unique approach to marketing and strategy combines deep psychoanalysis with a businessman's attention to practical concerns. He has written more than 14 books. His last book The Culture Code ranked 9th in the bestseller list of BusinessWeek and has been translated into 12 languages in Korea alone, The Culture Code has sold more than 250.000 copies. He is a very much sought-after lecturer on Creativity, Communication and Cultural literacy. Dr. Rapaille's technique and work are a creative and innovative extension of the work done by many great thinkers of the 20th century, including Jung in Psychoanalysis; Laing in Psychiatry; Levi-Strauss and Ruth Benedict in Anthropology. His world travels and extensive marketing research on products, services and brand archetypes for corporations and governments, have given him a fresh perspective on American and global businesses and the interaction among the Americas,

" The complete v" video and audio of this interview are available on our website: www.luzio.com.br

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Europe, the Middle East and Asia. For the past 30 years Dr. Rapaille has accumulated data, and developed a powerful process to understand the golden question: WHY people do what they do? Fernando Luzio. Dr. Rapaille, thank you very much for this unique opportunity, and we are honored to interview you at your home. We would like to start off this interview by asking you to tell us briey the story of your interesting life. Dr. Rapaille. I started being very interested while working with autistic children and studying the way they learn a language. Some of them have a difcult time learning any kind of language, and I was trying to understand what the mental process to learn a word was; whatever the word. I worked in Switzerland with children who were trying to learn French, German, and Italian the three major languages. And at the time I made a series of little discoveries on how the brain functions. My discovery then was that each time you learn a word there is a moment of imprint. There is a moment when you imprint for the rst time what is coffee, what is love, what is work, what is anything. And when you imprint you create a mental reference system that you should keep using for the rest of your life. And while working with these children, I realized that when they were from French, Swiss, Italian, or German origin, they were using different languages of course but at the same time the whole experience was different. Suddenly they were discovering a world through the word. And I can give you an example: the difference between the German and the French regarding the sun and the moon very important elements in a culture. In France, you learn that the sun is masculine le soleil le soleil is the Sun King, fortune, it is brilliant and powerful because in French culture man is supposed to be like this: brilliant and dominant. The moon is feminine la lune has a hidden power, but at night it goes up and down. When you are a little child you learn about the sun and about the moon, but you learn more than just the word sun and moon; you learn about all the gender system, differences between men and women and all these mental categories without even being aware of it. Now, when you are German, there is a big issue, because the opposite is true: for the German, the sun is a female sonne. And they would say Of course, www.luzio.com.br

CLOTAIRE RAPAILLE November 2012

Dr. Rapaille introduced a breakthrough concept to the corporate world: the Culture Code, which has proved to be a powerful methodology for more than half of the Fortune 500 companies.

His last book The Culture Code was ranked 9th in the bestseller list of BusinessWeek and has been translated into 12 languages in Korea alone, It has sold more than 250.000 copies.

why do you ask?! It is obvious!. Woman is the one that shines, she is warm and makes the children grow, so the sun is female. And the moon is a man mond because German men are always into dark and deep things, philosophy So my discovery at the time was that we need to be careful, because the translation of the word doesnt mean anything. If you translate the word sun from French into German you may lose signicance because there is always a deeper and more powerful meaning to the word. Let me give you an example of a simple consequence of that. If you want to sell shampoo in Germany and France, and you use the sun as a reference, you trigger a completely different response in each culture without being aware of it. That is what is very key here. I gave a conference at the University of Geneva, and one of my students asked his father to come to my lecture, he was working for Nestl and he said You know, what you discovered here the deep meaning of the rst imprint about the word might be very useful for us because we want to sell instant coffee in Japan and we are not very successful in trying to get them to switch from tea to coffee which was obviously not the right strategy, so they made me an offer I could not refuse and I went to Japan and discovered the Japan Code for coffee. Then LOreal, associated with Nestl, and started to expand around the world. I was invited to teach in different business schools around the world. I

published several books and that is how it went. Fernando Luzio. Could you explain what the Culture Code is? Dr. Rapaille. In every culture, the culture pre-organizes the way you deal with something in that culture. My denition of culture is: a survival kit inherited at birth in order to survive. So, at a certain time in a certain environment and geography and so on, you need this knowledge in order to survive. It is transmitted from one generation to the next and after a while, you dont even question it anymore, it doesnt matter. So the rst time you learn about coffee, like for example in Italy, its very different from the rst time that you learn about coffee in America. This is why in America you drink liters of coffee everyday and survive, but if it was Italian brewed coffee I would be dead at the end of the day. So there is a very strong difference of the meaning of coffee in Italy and the meaning of coffee in America. There is a rst imprint that is previously organized by the culture, and when we did this work on coffee in America we discovered that the rst imprint is not TASTE, the rst imprint is the AROMA. For the American culture the smell of coffee is very strong, it is unique and the rst imprint of coffee happens when you are two years old.! The whole culture imprint is of mother preparing breakfast in the kitchen and the feelings evoked: I am going to be fed, she loves me, I am home

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and I am safe all of these words are very powerful and very positive. But this is the American culture Code for coffee, not Italian or German. As a strategy we decided that Folgers should own the aroma and forget about the taste. Let the competitors deal with the taste, because the Culture Code for coffee in America is AROMA, so then everything should be on code which means that the package, the design (we injected the aroma on top of it and when you open it, shhhshssh, the aroma comes out in your face) and all the commercial aspects should be on code with AROMA. I told them I never want to see the brand Folgers associated with somebody drinking coffee no way! ! And they were surprised But we are selling coffee, and I said No, you are not selling coffee, your are selling the AROMA. Let the others sell the taste.. So this is the denition: the Culture Code is a reference system (like mother, breakfast, home, safeness and so on) imprinted at a very early age through the energy of the emotion that is associated with this reference system, and the Code is what activates it. So the Code for coffee is AROMA and AROMA activates all the reference system. Fernando Luzio. And could you provide us an overview of the Archetype Discovery process itself and its difference from a traditional marketing research? Dr. Rapaille. Sometimes its difcult to explain that this is not a traditional marketing research or study. This is a different thing. What we do is called a Discovery: we discover something that is there but we cannot see it and we are not familiar with it. And how do we do that? We follow the 3 Brains Principle: we have 3 brains. The rst one is the Cortex; the second one is the Limbic; and the third one is the Reptilian the very old part of the brain. And my theory is that the Reptilian always wins, it doesnt matter what you do, if you get the reptilian, boom! The process is done with groups of people and in three hour sessions, where we guide them back to the very rst time in their lives that they imprinted through emotion thats what we want to discover. ! First, in order to do that, we have to eliminate the Cortex at the rst hour when we let them speak. We dont care about what they speak of, because we dont believe in what people say. This rst hour is like a purge, a washing out session and when they nish they are happy because they think they have made a great contribution but we dont learn anything new, theres nothing serious in here. The second hour is more emotional within the Limbic where the contradictions are and also the tensions. The best way for me to explain this world of tension is through my work around the world about mothers and how they relate to their children, how they feed them and so on.! Around the world in China, India, Italy, France, Germany, and Brazil mothers tells me I want my children to grow and I dont want them to grow; I want them to be independent and I dont want them to be independent; Oh, they are so cute when they are little.! So there is this tension and every mother can feel that: she wants her children to grow because this is a program and at the same time she doesnt want them to leave. When my clients say We want our customers to love our products, I ask them Why?! Do you want your customers to love your products and never buy them, or do you want your customers to hate your products and always buy them?. There is not an immediate correlation. So the key element that we want to create with the Code that we discovered is an intense relationship, because love-hate sometimes is very powerful and creates long-term relationships. At this second www.luzio.com.br

hour people get confused, they dont know what they are doing anymore, and this is good. Then at the third hour, they lie down on the oor and we explain that we want to recreate the same mental activity that they have when they wake up in the morning. Why? Because when you wake up in the morning, usually for 5 to 10 minutes, the Cortex is not there yet it usually arises late for work in the morning so there is no control, you are still in the connection between the Reptilian and the Limbic and you can still remember your dreams. But if you dont write them down or recall them right away, 5 to 10 minutes later they are gone. And this is the kind of running activity that we want to recreate at the third hour, which is very unique. When people are there, lying down on the oor after a moment of relaxation, things come up in their minds and they would tell me Oh, its amazing, something came back that I forgot for 30-40 years ago. After that, they write down their rst stories, so the document that we get is handwritten. Then we study the structure, the pattern in all these stories. We look at the space in-between, if you may.! Lvi-Strauss, my professor, used to say that the mother is not a woman, a mother is a space between a woman and a child! so, no children, no mother; no mother, no children. Its the space in-between that you have to understand. It is very interesting this notion of structure: music is not made of notes; music is the space between the notes. You can play different notes in a piano with your left or right hand, or in different instruments, but the only thing that you must respect is the space in-between and this is what we discovered: what is the space in-between the different elements of those stories? What is the space in-between that creates the unconscious reference system, the unconscious melody that people use and activate when they think about the brand, the product, a category, a country? This is unconscious, so you have to nd a process to reveal it, you cannot see it right away. There is a truth, a real thing and a very important part of this methodology: it is anonymous. I have already done a lot of work on subjects that are very taboo. My rst work with P&G (Procter & Gamble) was on toilet paper. Imagine that you are invited to a focus group session with 20 strangers and for 2 hours you are going to explain how you use toilet paper! You dont get much out of that. People would say I want it soft, on sale, thank you very much, can I go now?. But when I was doing this work, because of the whole process involved, what we discovered was absolutely powerful and very emotional.! P&G was amazed: We never found anything like that! after that I made more than 30 Code Discoveries for P&G. Fernando Luzio. We are fascinated with all the Codes you have already broken; however two of them are very provocative and insightful for individuals and companies. Can you share some of your ndings on the Codes of Beauty and Luxury? Dr. Rapaille. I am going to tell you a bit more than what you can nd in my books, because I have already done more work on that subject. Beauty is a very Reptilian thing. We are programmed to nd beautiful what is useful for our Reptilian brain. So even when we go into Music, Art, Opera and Painting there is always something there that is very Reptilian. And I want to give you an example:!womens beauty. Some research has been done by a couple from India on what is the most beautiful shape of a womans body every culture is interested in that! They studied the womans body in different cultures and centuries through sculptures and paintings they went back to the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, etc.

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They put electrodes in every part of the body of a group of men and showed them some pictures of women to nd out which one would make them excited. They didnt have to speak, so if the system makes an IHH sound, it means they were excited; and if it makes an OHH sound, it means they were not excited. And what they found was a kind of unconscious and global structure Code for Beauty. When a womans body is straight, it sounds OHH, meaning that nobody is excited and as a trigger, as a message for my Reptilian brain it doesnt tell me anything. But if the body of a woman is like an hour-glass, it sounds IHH, and all the men get excited. Why? First of all, we are not so dumb after all because we are programmed to nd a woman that gives us more chance for our genes to reproduce. When a woman has a straight body, we never even try that woman, because it means we would be wasting our time. But when a woman has an hour-glass body, the message is Wow! She is the woman. And they found another very interesting thing: the key trigger is the relationship ratio between the waist and the hips, and it has to be 0.7.! So if the ratio is 0.7, it sounds IHH around the world! Amazing! And more: the women who have 0.7 ratio, have more children, live longer and have less cancer. So we are not so dumb after all!! Also very interesting, is that it is not a question of how fat you are, because you can be very fat but still have a ratio of 0.7 and it will sound

IHH.! It is not fat, it is fat distribution, it is a matter of where do you put your fat. Because of this discovery we can understand fashion: why the Egyptians invented the corset 5.000 years ago? Because the corset was meant to tighten, to make the waist smaller and to get 0.7 ratio. Why did the French invent these dresses with big volume? Again, to create that dimension. So it starts making sense, it is not just by chance, random or accident that a thing like that happens. It happens because unconsciously we have a perception of beauty that is very key. There are a lot more elements for the Code of Beauty Also, Luxury varies from one culture to another. For example, in French culture Luxury should be useless; in American culture, nothing should be useless. So in the United States, if you have a scarf around your neck its because you are afraid to get a cold, so this is not Luxury. But in France, if you put a scarf on your shoulders and you dont need it because your shoulders are not going to get a cold , that is useless, that is the beauty of elegance. If you need it for some reason, its not elegant. The same works with Luxury concerning food in France: you should not eat because you need food. You eat for pleasure. You should not drink wine because you are thirsty if you are thirsty, drink water. Wine is for the pleasure. American culture is very opposite. It has to have a purpose. The notions here are very different. By the way, there are a lot of similarities between Luxury in

France and in China. The Chinese aristocracy and the Chinese Emperor have a sense of Beauty and they think it is very pure, not a mundane purpose. What we discovered recently for several clients is that there is a global Code for Luxury, which is very interesting. And this Code is one very simple word that leads us to understand Luxury worldwide and that is the beauty of this work that we do. What is this word? HAND. The future of Luxury is going to be HAND, which is not made in France or made in China. It is made BY HAND, bespoke.! It is not even Luxury anymore but the passion of an artist, an craftsman (artisan) that is going to do something by hand, very carefully and tailor made. Herms is a very good example of a company that is very successful worldwide and they dont even use the word Luxury! I spoke to them recently in Paris and they said We are not really into Luxury, we are into craftsmanship., back to almost medieval times where we have the craftsman who loves le travail, who has to work very hard before he became a matre, a master in his art and craftmanship. So, things done by hand: amazing! The new Rolls Royce, for example: all the leather inside is done by hand and very carefully, and, sous mesure, tailor made. A very big issue. Some brands cannot do it completely, but they can offer an element of that. The Mini Cooper, for example: you can choose and pick up something special just for you, you can put a British ag on the roof, for example.

CLOTAIRE RAPAILLE November 2012

The future of Luxury is going to be HAND, which is not made in France or made in China. It is not even Luxury anymore but the passion of an artist, an craftsman that is going to do something by hand, very carefully and tailor made.
Dr. Clotaire Rapaille

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So this is the direction of Luxury. Mass production is not going to be Luxury, no way. Only things done by hand and unique. Ive just bought a Herms sofa in France and they told me You have to pay upfront and there is a 6 months d e l ay. Yo u h ave t o w a i t fo r 6 months..!Because it takes time to create Luxury. So once in a while I can go and see the progress of my sofa: 3 people are working hard on it, doing it by hand, they test a piece of leather, try another it is an art! They are artists. In French, craftsman (artisan) and artist are almost the same word. I like it very much because it gives a lot of value to the talent of some people and their passion, to the dedication and commitment they have to do a good job. So I think that mass production is not interesting anymore. On the other hand, the price of mass production is going down all the time, while the price of Luxury is going up without limits. Now you have a Bugatti car that costs 2.5 million dollars, so where is the limit? This is very special, very unique. Fer nando Luzio . Concer ning individuals, can we be discovered? Do I have a Personal Code? Do you know your Personal Code? Dr. Rapaille. Oh yes, of course, this is fascinating because when I worked with children, there was a very key element: at the beginning, when babies are together and one baby cries, the others start to cry because they dont see the difference between one baby and the others. Then after a certain time there is a moment in the childs evolution when he says No for the rst time, and then he says I, I want that, I dont want that. This rst discovery of your identity is quite amazing, so if you have different brothers and sisters, or if you are alone, all that system at a certain time creates your identity, and at that moment you start to have the imprint of your Code. And after that, there is repetition and reinforcement and then your environment and your parents reinforce your ideas, which can be negative, of course in case of neurotic people: Hey, you will never be able to do anything, you are a bad boy!. But, if you get reinforcement into another direction, it is very interesting, and you start to be condent. So it takes time to discover your Personal Code, of course, but it is very important to understand it, and if you know your Code you might not make a mistake in choosing your job.! You will nd a job that is on code with you. Maybe you choose the best place for you to live in the world, and all these www.luzio.com.br

should help to reinforce your own Code. The big problem for many individuals is that they get confused, they want to do this and that also, and the result of this confusion is procrastination they dont do anything and they dont succeed. Napoleon knew exactly what he was, of course that it could be dangerous sometimes (laughs), but he knew his Code and people said You are crazy, who do you think you are?!, Well, I am the Emperor.! And when he was imprisoned in his island by the British, one of the big, big sufferings that he had at that time was that the British refused to call him The Emperor. So yes, it is very important to discover and know your Code and then start managing your life in some ways to be on code with it. And your question about Do you know your Code?, yes, of course I know my Code very much. I have several models in my life, and my number one model is Champollion. He was a young guy that went to Egypt with Napoleon, and he did something that I do every day: he looked at the hieroglyphs that had been there for 400 to 500 years (I dont remember exactly) and nobody was able to understand what was written there. He was the rst one to be able to decode to nd the code, and then to start reading things that were there, but nobody could see it. And that is my life: to look at a thing that nobody can understand and decode it. And suddenly, wow, everything makes sense. My name is Clotaire and it is very similar to Voltaire, and Voltaire for me is another model. What I like about him is his ability to be a philosopher, an artist, a poet, a scientist and at the same time a good businessman. He was a very good businessman! So my Code is Voltaire with a little bit of Champollion and a little bit of Alexis de Tocqueville and so on. In a nal word, my Code is FRENCH 18th CENTURY. I love everything about the 18th century I dont like the way it ended because the French Revolution was a disaster, it killed people for no reason and from 1715 (at the death of Louis XIV) to 1789 that is where you have the most fantastic people: you have Montesquieu, Voltaire and Mozart for me the best music and I love Mozart. The 18th century is lart de vivre, elegance, style, beauty, a pleasure of life and the main purpose of the French culture at that time I know it is kind of supercial in a way was elegance and pleasure. That was fantastic, so that is my century and I am sure that in a former life I was a philosopher over there.

Fernando Luzio. Ive always seen a strong connection between Strategy and the Culture Code. We dene Strategy as the set of choices and trade-offs a company does in order to achieve a perception of Singularity in the customers mind, raising its willingness to pay and creating economic value. Today, in the business environment in any place in the world, its not a battle of products anymore; it is a erce competition of business models. Thats why companies have been developing capabilities in challenging their strategy, to what we call Business Model Innovation. It starts with a deep understanding of the customers concerns, aspirations and behavior. By doing so, we can challenge the companys value proposition, also design more convenient ways to reach customers (channels), and more appropriate customer relationships some of the building blocks of the strategy. How can we use an archetype discovery to reveal a better picture of customer needs and, therefore, produce powerful insights and bring competitive advantages to the company? Dr . Rapaille . It is crucial to understand what people really want, but at the same time we cannot believe what they say. So obviously we cannot just ask them about what they are not aware of. So, any corporation today has to understand the unspoken, the unconscious and the unaddressed need of the customer what do they want that they are not even aware of ? And if you want to be ahead of the competition you need to be the rst one to discover what they really want. And this is what we do. Let me give you an example. You have worked with me at Boeing, one of my clients. One day they told me We will design airplanes, we have to compete against the European Airbus and to be ahead of it, and we want to know what people really want in an airplane.. So during the Archetype Discovery process we discovered that they have no idea of what people want because they listened to them, and when you ask people what do they want in an airplane, they say I want leg room, good food, good entertainment, good service, all the movies and everything and the airplane companies say Lets do it.! The Europeans believed the customers, so they built the big Airbus (A380) where you are going to die with 800 people, for Gods sake! What we discovered was that this is not what they want. When people with money travel, they always take a private jet where they have no leg room, no food,

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no entertainment and no service and they pay 10 times more for the private jet. Why? Because when you use a private jet what you get is NO AIRPORT. What people really want is NO AIRPORT. Now, think about the beauty of this discovery because everybody is building bigger and bigger airports, but I predicted that what people want is NO AIRPORT. Why? Because I usually say that airports have been designed by mentally retarded engineers! I mean this is the worst place that you want to go through!! All the notion of being able to arrive with your car next to a private jet in one step from the car to the plane is the ideal situation. Look at the absurdity of these corporations and airports, where they keep adding a step: now you have to take your luggage there, then you have to go there, then you have to go to security, then you have to take off your shoes each time there is one more step! That is why we designed the Boeing 787 (the Dreamliner), which is a big success for Boeing. Its an airplane that competes with the Airbus because, in the case of the big Airbus, if you want to go from Paris to Detroit, you have to go to a hub you have to go to Chicago, change planes, they lose your luggage, the plane is delayed and all those things. The Dreamline is the opposite, we did not suppress completely airports, but LESS AIRPORT should be the right direction. So the Airbus only goes through hubs because it needs lots of space. The Dreamliner can go from anywhere to anywhere, nonstop. So when I have to y commercial, I say I want nonstop, and sometimes they try to cheat me saying Its direct, No, I dont want direct, I want nonstop!. Because they say direct, but you have to change planes in Sao Paulo (laughs). Now, let me tell you what is going to happen: India is very backwards in terms of infrastructure, and they started investing a lot of money building big airports. However, they are so big now that they have to be away from the city. Like Denver

International Airport, which I call The Dumbest International Airport in the World it is so far away from Denver that you have to take a car and drive for one hour! When we know that what people want is NO AIRPORT. So what is technology going to do? We already have technology for airplanes to take off without airports, so we dont need airports. Technology is now using a technique where you can take off from the roof of any building; it is solely for military purposes.!Second, we have the technology to make all airplanes silent no noise. Of course, today it costs too much money and we are not there yet; but remember that at the very beginning of the car, you needed to have a guy with a ag and a trumpet in front of the car to go through a village, and at that time they said Oh, this will never! be generalized, nobody is going to have cars everywhere because you need a trumpet and a ag. So it is the same reaction today with airplanes We are never going to have planes, because it costs too much money to develop.. And third, we are now developing private jets for 1.5 million dollars, cheaper than the Bugatti! Private jets are going to be so cheap that they are going to be like the taxi. Taxis! If I want to go from here to Detroit which is not too far I have to take one hour to go from here to the airport, then I have to arrive two hours before the ight, then usually the ight is on average, half an hour to 45 minutes late this adds another hour then I have a 2 hour ight, then when I arrive there I have to wait for my luggage and then I need another hour, so thats already 9 hours! That is the time that it takes me to drive there! When I used to work for GM I went to Detroit driving because it was better. ! I can stop when I want, I can take all the luggage that I want, Im not insulted by security guys. ! But in the future I will have the plane arriving in the park over here and taking me there, and a two hour ight will be a two hour ight.

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And if you want to be ahead of the competition you need to be the rst one to discover what they really want. And this is what we do.
Dr. Clotaire Rapaille

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CLOTAIRE RAPAILLE November 2012

...I dont like this word Sustainability because you dont want to sustain, you want to improve, you want to increase, you want to grow. The word Sustainis like using the break and stop. Zero growth is not Reptilian, thats why Sustainability in terms of slogan and philosophy has a hard time, because it is almost like giving up the Reptilian.
Dr. Clotaire Rapaille

Dr. Rapailles residence in Tuxedo (New York)

Customers dont calculate time the same way that airlines do they give you the time from the departure gate to the arrival gate. No, my time is from my home to my meeting in Detroit, that is the real time! So what customers want? They want the time of travel to be the real time, they dont want to lose all this time in-between and this is what is going to be successful in the future.! We can already see, for example, the people that manufacture small private jets making a fortune. And you are going to tell me Oh, but this is only for a minority, a small group of people.. Yes, like cars in the beginning of the 20th century were just for a minority I predicted that in the future all these crazy airports that they are building in India and China are going to be like a museum of the past because nobody is going there, they wont need them. What happened to horses and carriages is going to happen to airports! Again and again, what people want is NO AIRPORT, this is it. Big airport with more trafc jam is not the purpose! So this is the evolution, but in order to forecast and to predict the future we have to understand this. Fernando Luzio. Many traditional Business Models, such as the media, publishing, automobile, energy industries and others, are being challenged and threatened by disrupting technologies and other social phenomena. In your opinion, for example, the physical book will disappear in the coming years? How can the Archetype

Discovery process help these industries redesign their Business Models and readapt? Dr. Rapaille. It is very interesting because I have been contacted by Penguin in London, we have been working together and they want to understand the Code for books. What is a book? Why do we need a book? I usually say that the Reptilian always wins and a book is something that you can touch and feel and carry, it has a weight, it has a sound when you move it around, there is a sensitive relationship with the book. You dont have that with an e-book, you dont have that with an iPad. So there is a dimension in the book that you dont have in other devices. Besides that, we have done a lot of work on Internet and technology and found that you lose so much time on these things! If I take a book and go to page 190, and if you have an iPad I will reach page 190 before you. So you have to lose time to save time. And I dont lose time when I want to go through my book. We have done a lot of work on Creativity.!Our brain is very sensitive to the environment, to things that are over there but we dont pay attention conscientiously. We are inuenced by this environment. When I am in my library and I have all my books over there, I know exactly where they are and I like to touch them, so there is a stimulation of the mind. With depth, the reality of the electronic world is that it is very supercial, it is quick and fast but supercial you will never go in-depth.

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Its quite interesting to see that Encyclopedia Britannica is now on the Internet. Some people have it on the Internet but they want to see it in book form, so the big mortal mistake is to think that the electronic model is going to replace it. And in terms of the Reptilian brain: you might be able to see your children on Skype, they can speak with you, but is it going to replace hugging them, kissing them, touching them, eating with them? It is never going to replace that. This is it!!Its very simple. And its quite amazing to see the evolution of Luxury right now in different places like California and Europe, where you have hotels where there is no electricity at all. You are not allowed to have your cell phone or any computer, and there is no electricity, only candles, re in the re-place and books. And you pay 1.000 dollars a night, just to have the privilege of not being disturbed by pim-pom-bin-bon.!Suddenly you see the need for the real thing. After a while you need meditation, you need time to think, you need to have time to be with your children and to do simple things, you need to touch people. That is why the book is going to be handmade and by the way, I published a special anniversary edition of my book The Culture Code it is signed, each book has a number, and at the end there is an imprint of my hand. The symbol of Luxury: a hand-made book! Again, that is the evolution. We try to create pocket books that have no value, but at the same time there is this leatherbound book that is very beautiful. And it is more than the content alone. I say the structure is the message, so when I like to touch the book its already a message for me. I dont have this feeling with things on the Internet. But, when I want to do some research for writing my next book its good to have access to the Internet and all the reference system that I want, but it doesnt change the fact that I know where my books are and that they are like friends in my life. There is a saying in French culture and I think it works in English also: A house without books is like a man without a soul. So I dont think the electronic soul will replace it.! Fernando Luzio. As you have already mentioned, Sustainability is the new moral of contemporary companies. We are witnessing the challenges many companies face in order to educate and align their stakeholders with the desired sustainable mindset and attitudes. How can we imprint sustainability in the corporate culture of modern organization? Dr. Rapaille. First of all, I dont like this word Sustainability because you dont want to sustain, you want to improve, you want to increase, you want to grow. The word Sustain is like using the break and stop.! Zero growth is not Reptilian, thats why Sustainability in terms of slogan and philosophy has a hard time, because it is almost like giving up the Reptilian. On the other hand, it is ridiculous to kill your customer. If you kill your customer there is no customer anymore. You dont want to cheat your customer, you dont want to take advantage of them, you dont want to take advantage of the environment, and you dont want to kill the environment. Why? Because then, after that, it will be you next. So for the Reptilian mind you should create harmonious relationships of growth, not just to sustain, but growth and change. One thing that we know for sure is that change is not going to change, the world is changing all the time and to me sustainability means that you are able to anticipate the changes and to be in harmony with the changes. I like better the word harmony than sustain a kind of repressing. I like movement, I like growth, I like innovation, I like progress. www.luzio.com.br

So for me, what is interesting is the notion of harmony in the long-term and reciprocal growth. The notion of reciprocity is very Chinese. When we did the Code for China, the Chinese didnt like Americans because Americans just use them to make a sale and the Chinese dont. For the Chinese to respect you, you have to ask for reciprocity. Sustainability, in the long-term, means that I take care of you and you take care of me. This is reciprocity and it is very much part of Confuciuss approach: we should take care of each other because it is an inter-relationship; we need each other, so why do I want to win if you lose? It is not just winwin, it is more, it is permanent growth, and this should be the same concerning the environment and the Planet. And what is very important today is what we call anthropocentrism: for the rst time humans are changing the Planet and we are not paying attention to this fact. As Buckminster Fuller said, The Planet Earth is a spaceship that has no pilot. I think that more than just protecting the Planet, we need a pilot; we need someone that can say This the way we want this Planet to grow and this is how we are going to do that.. Fernando Luzio. Strategy is closely related to human behavior, because in order to support the strategy execution, people must change the way they usually work. At the same time that people want change, they resist to change. Why? Do you believe that people can really change? How can the Archetype Discovery process help companies with Change Management? Dr. Rapaille. This is a very fascinating subject. My rst reaction is: yes, people can change.!But it is very difcult; it is sometimes a lot easier to get somebody else. The joke is Dont change people, change people which means get somebody else because it is lots faster. Why is it so difcult to change? Because usually we want people to change when its too late already and by the time we arrive at the decision that we want change, we are already too late. Going back to my experience with learning to speak and learning languages I speak English with an accent because I learned English too late. Yet, my son Dorian speaks French, English and Spanish with no accent because he learned these three languages before he was ve. So when you learn something at a very early age it is imprinted in your mind and it is very difcult to change. My taste for cheese is a very French. Ive tried American cheese, but I am not going to change and I dont want to change because I like French cheese. There are some elements that you feel comfort with; there is a zone in everybodys mind and unconscious where we are comfortable with and we dont want to change that. So changing individuals is possible but it is very difcult. What you can do is to nd tensions in everybody. There are always tensions in us: we love and hate, there are things that we like and things that we dont like, and we can move on this axis, we can be a little bit more of this or a little bit more of that. For example, I was born in France and I have many imprints coming from the French culture, but during the war I had my rst imprint of Americans: their tanks and the German running away. Immediately I imprinted that all Americans are winners, are the strong guys and I wanted to be one of them. After that I went to see Gary Cooper, John Wayne, Burt Lancaster, and all the American movies and I identied with them. So I have some imprints on both sides French and American. Now, do I want to change? Well, if I want to change in the sense that I want to work harder, I go to my American side;

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if I want to enjoy more luxury and pleasure, I go to my French side. So I am not really changing, I am moving into an axis that I have. And one way to make people change is to discover these axes that they have in their Code and help them to move more in one way or another. So you dont change the axis, you dont imprint anymore because it is too late when you are 30, 40. What you can do is to discover these axes and the directions that you might want to follow; discover the elements that are already there, make them conscious and push yourself in the direction that you want. Then, of course you will do it. But if someone tries to impose something from outside, you will not move. And corporations, can they change? Yes, they can change faster than government and politicians because there is a vote everyday: you either sell or you dont sell your product. And a successful way to make people change in a corporation is what I call short feedback: they should know immediately the results of their actions. The problem is that we delay the feedback and the reward try to train a horse by giving it feedback once a year: you are never going to train the horse; you need to do it right away. I worked for MBNA Credit Card and I told them that when people are trying to sell, they should have a goal, for example: we want to sell 200.000 new Credit Cards today for the whole group. Then the numbers should be posted on a sing on top, showing how much we did today 185.000, 190.000 so then, they could see it immediately and get the results. When you give employees a bonus at the end of the year, they have no immediate incentive. So I think that technology today makes it possible for people to really have a short feedback and adjust their behavior according to what they are doing right or wrong by seeing it right away. We dont use that technology, we use bureaucracy, we delay, so everything is wrong. Another example: 100.000 people die every year in America because of malpractices and mistakes in hospitals! Twice more than during the Vietnam War!! How can we change that? Well, there is no signal showing what physicians are doing. There is no measure and no feedback about the way they dispose all the waste; about the way that they go from one patient to another without washing their hands. So if you start putting signals each time a physician washes his hands, they will be able to see by a visual curve that they www.luzio.com.br

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The key element for a culture to be successful in the future is whether they will have a contribution to make to the Planet. (...) What can Brazilians bring to the world? A feminine culture, the womans side and the notion of mulher guerreira (warrior woman). I am completely convinced that global leaders in the future are going to be women and we need to start thinking like a woman.
Dr. Clotaire Rapaille

have improved. How many people put waste in the right box? They would visualize and they would want to do better tomorrow. People want to do good.! To show them they are doing better today than yesterday is a reward. It is simple. But if you dont show them, they dont know, so how can they change? Fernando Luzio. You have broken the Code of many different cultures. What is your perception about the strengths and weaknesses of Brazilian culture and how do they affect the competitiveness in our way of doing business in a global world? Dr. Rapaille. The clich is Brazil is the country of the future and it has been the country of the future for what, 100 years? It seems that the future is never arriving (laughs), but I think it is arriving. I went to Brazil for the rst time in 1969 to study the Indians in Xingu (I was part of the Museu do ndio) and since then, I have been watching the evolution of your countr y. My perception is that the potential is absolutely incredible. The key element for a culture to be successful in the future is whether they will have a contribution to make to the Planet. Thats it: what is your contribution? Like it or not, the only thing that the French culture can bring to the rest of the world is Luxury. This is the only thing they can do: Cartier, Van Cleef, Champagne. What can Brazilians bring to the world? A feminine culture, the womans

side and the notion of mulher guerreira (warrior woman), which means that I am going to work hard every day to improve the life condition of my family; I know that life is difcult, I know that I dont have all the money that I need, but I dont give up, I work a little bit more every day. So this persistence combined with a certain realism and optimism at the same time; paired with this consistency of hard work, in improving, this is something very strong. I am completely convinced that global leaders in the future are going to be women and we need to start thinking like a woman. I am doing some work right now on high education around the world and in most of the business schools there are no classes on how to think like a woman. Big mistake! Why? Because we only think like a man and we dont understand that women think differently. What is the big difference? This is how men make a denition: not this, cut it off; not this, cut it off. Eliminate, eliminate and that is it.! Now we have a denition. That is hard data; we have done work around the world to nd out about this. Yet, women make denitions by inclusion: this is it also; and this is it also; and this is it also And what is very difcult for men to accept is that it never nishes, it is never done. You can keep adding and adding. Brazil is a very feminine culture and we can learn about this inclusive dimension. I remember I had a feijoada with you one day, and one thing that I learned about feijoada is that you can

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always add some water if there are more people coming and they are always welcome. It is not exclusive, it is inclusive. The same is true concerning peoples race. I remember this beautiful woman: she was part Japanese, part African, part Swiss, she had all this mix and wow, the result was fantastic! Right now in Europe there is a very big danger: we see racism and fascism coming back. This is not part of the Brazilian mindset; it is more inclusive, more open. I think it is ne that you have a woman leader, and even Lula was more feminine. So that is one of the things that I nd very good in the Brazilian culture; this inclusiveness is the contribution that Brazil can bring to the world. Fernando Luzio. You mentioned your worry about the Europe. As an Archetypologist, how can Americans and Europeans explore the power of their Culture Codes in order to overcome the crisis and turnaround? Dr. Rapaille. The crisis that we have today is a result of the dominance of the Cortex. Americans have been very good for many years and centuries because we are not too Cortex. The clich is that America has a bias for action, so lets do it you dont know what you are going to do, but you do it. Europeans are the opposite, they want to think, to organize, so the result is more laws, regulation, slowing down the process. And the problem with the new administration of Obama in America is that they are very much European in the way of thinking, so they create more laws, more regulations, they slow down the process, they want to create a big government. They should look at France where 65% of the budget is the government. Everybody is leaving there, nobody wants to create anymore. France has a decit of 100 billion Euros, when the German make 200 billion surpluses. What is the big difference between the two? Well, the French dudes dont want to work; they want the state to take care of everything. The idea to put Germans and Greeks in same box is absurd. It is never going to work; it is like trying to give the same rules to giraffes and elephants. No way! So Europeans have to understand and accept that these cultures are different and before they become one big culture which is going to take centuries they have to move to another structure, a structure which respects cultural differences. The British understand that very well, they always felt that they were different. They still have the pound, not the euro. And for me a good example is Switzerland. Switzerland is a great country, they are very successful. They have 4 ofcial languages and every subculture is respected. So you can create something like that, of course it is possible. The problem with America is more serious, because it is not an issue between Republicans and Democrats. The problem is the politicians and not if they are Democrats or Republicans. The big government that we have was created by Republicans. The crazy politicians, in order to be reelected have to spend, spend, spend and so on. So that is a big issue and if it keeps going like that we are going to become like France. We have already one of the biggest decits in the world and we are going to have more regulations. So what Americans and Europeans should do? They should try to copy countries that are successful, what we call best practices in government. We do that in manufacturing, why dont we do that in governments? And the number one example for me is Singapore. I wrote an article and said: Monsieur Hollande (the new French President) should work as an interne in Singapore to learn from these guys over there.. Singapores model is unique and www.luzio.com.br

very successful.! They have 2% unemployment, Spain has 25%! So obviously, Spain should learn something from them. Why are they so successful? Because it has Reptilian principles. First of all they have no gas, no oil, no land, no natural resources, they have nothing. They are not like those spoiled little Arabian countries which live on royalties. They have nothing. So what was the rst thing they did? In 1965, when Malaysia rejected Singapore, Lee Kuan Yew, the leader at that time said Ok guys, we have no choice. We have to be better than the others because we have no resources, we are poor, we have to be the best.. And what is the rst thing we need to do? Clean: that is a Reptilian priority. Mothers know that you have to be clean, the food has to be clean, the children. So we want the house to be clean, the street to be clean, we want the food to be clean, you need to be clean, your clothes have to be clean. Clean, clean and that creates a mindset, a rst imprint about discipline, demand and exigencies. The rst thing that Lee Kuan Yew imprinted in peoples minds he did not have to write it down. It is duties and one of the biggest polemics in American culture is that criminals have more rights than victims. Then the second one was: you have to work hard. This is very Chinese, a Confucius dimension that you have to work and you have to learn. Learn, learn, learn, and never stop learning. And then there is this notion of respect: respect your family, respect your father. Right now there is more average income in Singapore, something like 70.000 dollars a year. They have more millionaires over there than anywhere else in the world. With 5 million people and they make 55 billion surplus between import and export 1/4 of what Germans do with 80 million people. Can you imagine that? There is no corruption, and do you know why? Because all civil servants make an average of 1 million dollars a year. So, when you are a Director of an Agency you dont need more money, you already have 1 million dollars! So it is amazing. And because they pay civil servants very well they have the best people wanting to become civil servants, again it is a virtuous cycle. And it is a very safe place. I have been there many times and women can walk safely at night in the street. There is no grafti because you go to jail. Ive done work in Singapore very much and when Ive asked young people in Singapore: Would they live somewhere else? They said: No. Id rather be in Singapore, it is a lot better here.! So young people love it, they appreciate the structure, the security, the safety, transportation is almost free, the subway is very nice and beautiful and safe. My next book is called The Global Code and The Global Mind and I say that these global leaders should look at the best practices around the world. And even if I criticize the French all the time, French medicine is a lot better than American medicine, on average. They get better results twice as much, for 1/3 of the price per person than they do in America. America is in an estate of waste, an incredible waste. So they should learn again: what are the French doing better than Americans in terms of medicine? Fernando Luzio. You know about my passion for Japan, and for me something very provocative is what the country has been facing. The Japanese economy experienced a huge expansion after the Second World War, up until the 90s, leading some technology innovations and some of the modern management practices, such as the Lean Manufacturing from Toyota, Total Quality Management, Just in Time, and others.

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Nowadays, the country has been facing trouble in overcoming the disturbing creativity and innovation blackout, adapting the business model of their large companies, and losing space for their Asiatic neighbors. Even Toyota has recently experienced a traumatic recall that questioned their legacy as the Quality icon. The Japanese movie industry lost space in the recent years for the up and coming Korean and Chineses lms. How can we help Japanese companies to readapt and turnaround in order to recover their relevant role in the global scenario? Dr. Rapaille. That is why Japan needs Brazil, because the Japanese Code is almost your opposite. Ive been studying in Japan since 1964 when I went to Japan for the rst time. I had a company there for a while and have done a lot of work in Japan. Japanese culture is fascinating, it is one of the most interesting cultures for me to study and decode. But on the other hand, their very culture presents a problem to the Japanese. And what is the problem? The Koreans that have been in Japan for three generations are still Korean, there is no integration.! Japanese Japanaise, it is not like the feijoada where you mix things. The Japanese mind is about the purity of the blade, the high density of the laser, thats why they are so good when it comes to quality, and intensity they are intense. That is what they want. For long time they have been better than everybody else because of that. Absolutely! But at a certain time this

high-density is just so selsh and so selfcentered, that they forget about the rest of the planet. So, Japanese companies have to face different challenges today. As you know Korea has been occupied by the Japanese for more than 30 years. They were forced to think Japanese, to speak Japanese, to have Japanese names, and then, when in 1945 the Japanese left, Koreans went back to being Korean. But they have integrated all the good things such as quality and density. They are fantastic; they are Italian and Japanese at the same time. They have the passion and the excitement of the Italian and they have the intensity of the Japanese. The Japanese are not Italian at all; they have never integrated the Italian dimension. So, Japanese companies are still imperialistic in their minds. They want to impose Japan. They cant mix with the other cultures. So, I see a better future for Brazil than for Japan, unfortunately. Then, aging population is another big issue. They have a healthy lifestyle in Japan so they live forever, they never die, but you have to feed them one way or another, so you have this work force in Japan that is shrinking and the aging population growing. There are a lot of similarities between Japan and Germany: same unconscious structure. When the Japanese needed to have a bureaucracy, they copied the German. Today they have the car industry in common. They were good soldiers, imperialistic soldiers; they were

allies during the war, so there are a lot of similarities. But the German managed to stay German and reinvent themselves. So the Japanese again should look at the Germans and copy the model being used over there, on how the Germans are doing, on how come they are successful there, because this is not off code with Japan. Both love the systemic approach, so that is how the Japanese can grow. Fernando Luzio. Something that I nd very interesting is that always at the beginning of an Archetype Discovery process you start by asking your client If I had all the answers, what would your questions be?. Now I really would like to know If I had all the answers, what would your questions be? What are the intriguing questions in your mind nowadays? Dr. Rapaille. If you had all the answers, I think my number one question would be Where is the global leader that could be the pilot for this Planet?. And he or she cannot be a politician maybe a king/queen philosopher, a wizard, a high priest, something like that. But there is a need for another Archetype to come and to guide. Because right now, we are moving in so many different directions, in part destroying the Planet, which is bad.! So, that will be my dream, to discover this structure, beyond politics, beyond economy, beyond major corporations. Who will be the best pilot?

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My next book is called The Global Code and The Global Mind and I say that these global leaders should look at the best practices around the world. (...) French medicine is a lot better than American medicine, on average. They get better results twice as much, for 1/3 of the price per person than they do in America. America is in an estate of waste, an incredible waste. So they should learn again: what are the French doing better than Americans in terms of medicine?
Dr. Clotaire Rapaille

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Fernando Luzio. To close this unforgettable interview, if you would write a letter to our children about your key learning and recommendations on how to be a better individual and professional, what would be your core legacy? Dr. Rapaille. My mother was a very special woman and she always told me one simple message that I would like to transmit to my 2 sons. I was kind of crazy when I was young I am still crazy today, but a different crazy: one day while I was playing music, I said I want to become a musician; another day I would be painting, and I would say I want to become a painter; I wanted to cure children; I want to become a doctor, and my mother always told me Whatever you decide to do, you are going to succeed.. For me that was one of the best messages anybody could tell me, specially my mother, because I thought Wow! Maybe she is right, maybe I am going to do that and I am going to succeed.. So I would like my children to have this self-condence. Dont try to do what I want you to do.! Dont try to be what I want you to be. Dont want to become what anybody else wants you to be, but do whatever you want to do and you are going to succeed. I think that the wrong idea is to say Oh, I want my son to be a doctor or an engineer..!Forget it! Let them do whatever they want to do. So, this is the best legacy that you can give your children Whatever you are going to do, you are going to be successful in, just trust yourself and do the best you can. Fernando Luzio. Your Archetype Discovery legacy is fascinating and very on code with the historical moment that we are experiencing: globalization, when the world must learn to recognize, respect and learn how to deal with the differences. Your company has helped to educate large organizations around the world on how to understand and value the differences and to use them in their favor, not against them. And all of us, from Luzio Strategy Consulting are deeply honored and proud of being part of the ADWs family and sharing its mission. Dr. Rapaille, thank you very much for your interview. Dr. Rapaille. It was my pleasure, thank you.

CLOTAIRE RAPAILLE November 2012

Dr. Rapaille on the left; Fernando Luzio on the right

The video and audio of this interview are available on our website www.luzio.com.br and iTunes Store A PDF of this interview is also available in Portuguese

NOVOS INTRPRETES PROGRAM Created and Directed by: Fernando Luzio and Ren Guedes Interviewer: Fernando Luzio Editorial Supervision: Patrcia Luzio Edited and Photographed by: Robson Crociati and Henrique Pinto Production: Luzio Strategy Consulting

LUZIO STRATEGY CONSULTING Website: www.luzio.com.br / E-mail: novosinterpretes@luzio.com.br Tel: +55 (11) 3045-5651 Rua Afonso Braz, 473 - cj. 43 Vila Nova Conceio - So Paulo - SP 04511-011 Brazil

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