A Conversation with Eric Goldberg

Following our recent sit down discussion with famed Disney animator Andreas Deja, Animated News & Views Christian Ziebarth met u with one of Dejas fellow alumni at the Disney !tudio, animator and director "ric #oldberg, most recently a director$for$hire on Looney Tunes: Back in Action% During the informal chat at &alts old 'am (!hanter haunt, #oldberg s o)e about his career at the *ouse +ouse, ta)ing in such characters and mo,ies as the #enie in Aladdin, and co$ helming Pocahontas%

Animated Views- .ets start with the recent Disney .egends ceremony where they honored !te,e *artin and Art .in)letter% Did you )now about that/ "ric #oldberg- Art .in)letter a Disney .egend/ &ell, o)ay, he o ened the lace% AV- 0eah, he o ened the lace, and he was there at the 12th e,ent a month or two ago, so 3 guess that counts as a Disney .egend% "#- All 3 remember with him is Arts house arty, but youre too young4 AV- &hat was that/ "#- 'hat was his daily, fi,e days a wee) show for housewi,es in the afternoon% And he would inter,iew eo le in the audience% 5robably his most famous se6uence in it was to ha,e a bunch of li)e )indergarten )ids u there called Kids Say The Darnedest Things% AV- (h, o)ay% Didnt 7ill Cosby )ind of do something li)e that later on/ "#- 0eah, he tried to re,i,e it 8launches into Cosby im ression9 :&hat are you tal)ing about/ 3ts ;ell$(, you see, because you dont get much<= !o, anyway< AV- 3 remember hearing about Art% 3 )new about him as 3 grew u , but 3 dont thin) when 3 was fi,e 3 could go, :(h, yeah, hes the guy that o ened Disneyland in >?11%= "#- 3 wouldnt ha,e )nown% 3 was, lets see, when did Disneyland o en/ 3t was ;uly 11/ 3 was two months old4 AV- 3 was wondering why they were ma)ing !te,e *artin a Disney .egend and 3 didnt want to say, :&ell, he doesnt deser,e that,= but 3 wondered what they had to bac) that u / "#- +e used to lay there% +e used to lay at the #olden +orseshoe @e,ue and used to do his early standu there and lay the banjo% .i)e, you )now, one of those &ally 7oag guys% 'hats why%

AV- &ell, what 3 heard is somebody said, :(h, its because hes in that thing they ha,e laying at the ( era +ouse right now%= "#- 'hats not why% +e actually used to lay there% +e used to do a ,ersion of what he e,entually became% AV- And he was young too, robably only in his early twenties then% 3 guess he wrote for 'he !mothers 7rothers/ "#- 0eah% AV- And then the notes about the Disney .egends said he also wor)ed in the *agic !ho on *ain !treet% "#- 0eah, 3 can see that% AV- +e would do tric)s, ma)e balloon animals, do magic tric)s in front of eo le, so 3 guess that was enough for them to ma)e him a Disney .egend% "#- &ell, hes a name% And, sadly, a lot of the other eo le are assing away this year% AV- Did you wor) on that thing where hes interacting with Donald Duc) thats laying at the ( era +ouse now/ "#- 3 did one big scene, at the end, with Donald and the boA of firewor)s% AV- 3 bet he gets really mad in it% "#- Actually, no4 +e gets snea)y, but he doesnt get mad% AV- 3m loo)ing o,er there and 3 see some Disney ictures on the walls% "#- 0eah% 'heres some ;ohn +ench stuff in there% AV- (ne loo)s li)e Fran) 'homas% "#- Could be% 'hey all used to come here% &e used to see *arc and Alice Da,is here a lot, and Fran) and (llie% AV- 3 saw (llie the other night% +e was at the Cinderella screening% +e said a cou le of things that really crac)ed the audience u % "#- 0eah, he was always shar % +owd the film loo)/ AV- (h, it loo)ed really good% 3 hadnt seen it since 3 was young and 3 remember the mice, and there was a cat, and there was a um )in that turned into a stagecoach% 'hat was about it, so it was almost ??B new to me% 7ut it loo)ed really good with the digital restoration% ;ohn .owry was saying that it was robably the best restoration hes e,er done out of all the things hes wor)ed on% "#- 0eah, 3 wanted to see it but 3ll get the DVD% AV- &hich of the Nine (ld *en ha,e you met/ "#- Fran) and (llie, *arc, &ard, "ric .arson% Actually 3 met *ilt yeeeaaars ago% AV- +e assed away in C1, something li)e that/ "#- 0eah, 3 met him when 3 was in high school, in DE% 3 ne,er met &oolie, ne,er met Fen Anderson or .es Clar)% AV- &hat was "ric .arson li)e/ "#- "ric was a sweet guy% ",eryone lo,ed him% 3 gather that he, because of studio olitics, was gi,en a rough ride o,er there, and he was always )ind of ushed aside in fa,or of some of the other

Nine (ld *en, but he was really the guy who headed u the in$studio training rogram to nurture new talent, and e,eryone lo,ed him% 3 thin) he was a huge loss to the studio when he assed away% 3 )now there were times that he chafed at the system that was there, although he would ne,er say it out loud% 3 didnt )now him ,ery well, 3 met him a cou le of times, but 3 thin) its the )ind of thing where hed get out,oted on stuff, and, ersonally, what ha ened to me was he was ,ery encouraging when 3 was trying to a ly for their training rogram, and we went out for a ,isit when 3 was in high school and went around the studio for li)e two hours% (llie showed me some stuff on the *o,iola from Robin Hood and it was great% And they brought e,erybody, they brought *ilt and Fran), and e,erybody else in to loo) at my stuff% AV- &hen they were wor)ing on @obin +ood/ "#- 0eah% 3 was really trying to get into the lace, so 3 finally a lied and "ric .arson was my liaison, and 3 got thumbs down after all this encouragement% 'hey basically loo)ed at e,erything 3 brought in and went, :&ell, thats gag animation% &e dont do gag animation%= And they went, :&ell, thats design and we dont really do design%= AV- 3f they didnt want gag and design what did they want/ "#- &ell, they wanted what they do, to a certain eAtent, you )now% AV- &hate,er they secretly had in mind/ "#- 3 guess so% &ell, they also wanted malleable eo le% 'heir hiloso hy at the time with their training rogram was they didnt want eo le who )new how to animate, they wanted eo le who )new how to draw and theyd train them% 3n any case, "ric was always ,ery encouraging to me and then they turned me down and it was li)e ulling teeth to find out why, and these are the reasons he ga,e me% AV- +e turned you down or it was the owers that be/ "#- 'he owers that be turned me down% 3 thin) "ric would,e had me in in a minute% 'hats one reason 3 went to "ngland% 3 just figured, :&ell 3m not going to beat my head against the wall trying to get in here anymore,= and the other thing is they as)ed for s)etchboo) su ort from my films, so 3 had a lot of anti$NiAon, anti$Ford cartoons in there and then the res onse was, :&ell, you oughtta get out of animation entirely and do olitical cartoons%= AV- 7ut you didnt really want that to be your focus% "#- 0eah, so its the )ind of thing where 3 )now he felt bad when 3 had to in him down as to what ha ened% 'hese are the reasons 3 got and 3 )now it wasnt his decision% Actually years later, bless "rics heart, a friend of mine was showing my commercials reel at Disneys, after 3 wor)ed for @ichard &illiams for a cou le years% "ric .arson was in the audience and 7rad 7ird goes o,er to him and he says, 8im ersonating 7irdGs ,oice9 :!o, you li)e that guys stuff, right/= :Hh$huh%= :0ou thin) hes retty good, right/= :0eah%= And 7rad grabs him by the shirt collar and goes, :And you let him lea,e, man44= AV- 'hat sounds just li)e 7rad% 3 remember that e,ent at the Academy a month or so ago about the animated erformance, and you were there and 7rad was there% +es just so almost li)e a cartoon character himself because hes so animated, he jum s u out of his chair% "#- (h, yeah% 3ts artially erformance art, but hey, you )now% AV- 3ts just interesting watching him because e,en when he li)e stayed ut in the ul it he was li)e, :And 3 wanted to get Ia marital fight%= And its just so funny, the way he said it and then he went off on his big monologue about how EDs going to come bac) once the studios see one hand$ drawn animated flic) does good, but he went on a big E2$minute ri session about that% "#- 3 dont thin) hes wrong either%

AV- 0ou jum ed u out of your chair too4 'hat was funny% 3 was tal)ing to somebody later and 3 said, :3 try to tell eo le that 3 )now through e$mail what 7rad 7ird is li)e but 3 cant enca sulate him in writing%= 0ou cant reduce him to a sentence or two% "#- No, you cant% +e is what he is% AV- !o when was the .arson thing, when he said :0ou let him go=/ *aybe li)e the mid$"ighties/ "#- 3t was late !e,enties% AV- 'hat reminds me of 7illy Crystal because he tried out for !aturday Night .i,e and they were li)e, :Ah, youre not good enough,= and he turned out to be this major talent later on and he was on it a few years later% "#- 0eah, but its funny, you )now% 3 a reciate 7rads sentiment but it was the wrong target because "ric robably would,e said yes% 3t was the rest of the grou % And 3 dont hold any grudges, lets ut it that way% 'hey werent loo)ing for whate,er 3 had at the time, so its the )ind of thing where they had a ,ery strong idea of what they wanted for a licants there% 'hey basically wanted eo le who drew well that they could really teach from the ground u % 'hats really what they were loo)ing for% AV- 3 wanted to find out more about "ric .arson% 0ou,e got the real strong characters li)e *ilt Fahl and &ard Fimball, and 3 guess he was a little bit more subdued/ "#- 0eah, he was% +e was ,ery 6uiet, ,ery soft s o)en and ,ery )ind, and maybe one reason that you didnt hear as much about him is that he just didnt toot his own horn as much% AV- 0ou said he was the one that did the training rogram% +e was the one that realiJed, :&ell, were going to ha,e to get some new eo le in here,= right/ "#- 0eah, he headed it u % 3 )now many eo le who are now talented Disney fol)s or Disney fol)s who were talented ten years ago and now ha,e to learn to do something else% 'hey s ea) ,ery fondly of "ric% +e was their mentor% 0es, eo le got mentored indi,idually, (llie mentored #len, and so on and so forth, but its a )ind of thing where he was really the glue for that generation of animators coming u through the studio% AV- Do you e,er thin) what it might,e been li)e if youd been hired then/ "#- 0eah, 3 do% And you )now what/ 3m glad it didnt ha en, you )now/ AV- 3t ended u wor)ing out% 0ou ended u getting into it later on and things wor)ed out good% "#- &ell erha s because of the circumstances and also just my own ma)e$u , 3 wound u wor)ing with @ichard &illiams on @aggedy Ann and then after that going to .ondon, doing 'V commercials with him and learning a huge amount in terms of gra hic design, how to animate a ,ariety of different styles% Fen +arris was at the studio, Art 7abbitt was at the studio, so basically 3 got an animation education com letely outside of the Cal ArtsKDisney ethos and could de,elo my own style, which ha ily they e,entually li)ed at Disneys% AV- 3t was really hel ful when Aladdin came along% "#- 0eah, 3 mean fifteen years of commercials and 3 thin) 3 can s6ueeJe something into thirty seconds4

AV- !o, @ichard &illiams% Do you ha,e any contact with him at all/ "#- Not ,ery fre6uently% +es a little reclusi,e right now% +es wor)ing on his own film, so 3 hear from his son AleAL animating it all himself, and he o s u e,ery now and again to do his master classes and things li)e that, and we,e had dinner a cou le of times% 3ts interesting because he, the last time he was out in .A, he seemed genuinely charmed and mo,ed that eo le actually e,en remembered who the hec) he was% 3t was )ind of celebrating the anni,ersary of@oger @abbit and there was a whole bunch of different things, li)e his master class, and 3 thin) the fact that he was getting this )ind of attention, you )now, from the .A animation community, 3 thin) was ,ery heartening to him% AV- 0ou didnt wor) on @oger @abbit, did you/ "#- No% 'hats a long story that 3 wont go into% AV- Did you ha,e any in,ol,ement with the se6uel they tried to start u / "#- 3 did a test of @oger% 'hey were tal)ing about doing a se6uel, they got Fran) *arshall in to direct the li,e$action for a test se6uence, and what they wanted to test was, :.ets see if we can do com uter ro s so we dont ha,e to rig the real ro s, and match characters to them% .ets see if we can do com uter ro s and ma)e them loo) realistic, and do hand$drawn animation to match it%= And 3 said, :.oo), the gimmic)s old already% 3f youre going to ma)e Roger Rabbit, drag him into this century, you gotta do him in C#3%= !o we did him in C#3% 'he C# guys down in Florida did both the ro tests and the C# @oger test which 3 directed in California, and the C# @oger loo)ed great% 'om 7ancroft animated @oger by hand and they ulled and ushed the model to match his animation, and it just loo)ed stunning% AV- Did they do a C#3 ;essica @abbit/ "#- No, but for all intents and ur oses it loo)ed li)e ,ery good, highly olished cartoon animation eAce t you dont get the foot wobble because its a model that gets trac)ed in the same way that dinosaurs get trac)ed in ;urassic 5ar), so when hes lanted on the des) hes lanted on the des)4 AV- No ho,ering/ "#- 'hats eAactly right% And the lighting loo)ed great% 3t would,e wor)ed% 3t would,e been a ,ery eA ensi,e film to ma)e, no 6uestion about it, and 3 )now the studio hesitated, that being amongst the reasons% AV- &as that before 'oy !tory hit/ "#- After% 3t was summer of ?D% AV- !o those tests might be still lying around somewhere maybe/ "#- 0eah% 3 dont ha,e a decent co y of it but, yeah% 'he whole @oger @abbit E thing just )ind of fell a art% ;im 5entecost, who was our roducer on 5ocahontas, had actually resented the idea that ga,e it some traction in the first lace% 7ut there was always this rights issue as to ! ielberg and Disney and who owns which characters, and what was e,eryones in,ol,ement going to be, and the eA ensi,e nature of the film, and the idea of doing the se6uel when it was already ten years later% 3 thin) e,eryone bal)ed, and 3 can understand it% 3 can understand it artially because @oger himself was ne,er a articularly a ealing character% 3 dont )now that he can carry a mo,ie without the gimmic)% AV- 0eah, because you ha,e the nostalgia of all the other characters there% "#- 0eah, 3 mean youd ha,e some of that anyway, but 3 dont )now if eo le would come bac) to see @oger again as a character%

AV- !o you said the C# test turned out good, but was there any sort of story that was itched/ "#- (h yeah, thats what 3 was saying about ;im 5entecost% +e came u with a story that was basically @ogers rise to fame% 0ou )now, he was teamed with a human and they were both on the road in ,aude,ille% AV- Now 3 remember seeing @aggedy Ann and Andy when it came out% 3 was robably about eight or something% 3 remember being eAcited and watching it with my sister% !he had the @aggedy Ann toy and 3 had the @aggedy Andy toy% &as it e,er released on home ,ideo/ "#- 0eah, it was briefly on V+!% 3 dont thin) anyones done a DVD% AV- 3 dont remember much about it% 3 remember 3 watched it% &as that )ind of one of the things that bro)e you in/ "#- 0eah, it was my first real big rofessional job% 3 was wor)ing on that and its a mo,ie that has interesting ingredients but doesnt hold u as a mo,ie% 'heres some indi,idual interesting bits of animation but not really a story to hold it together% 'he best stuff is actually "mery +aw)ins :#reedy= in it% 3n rough it loo)s li)e mo,ing garbage% 3t was really fun to watch% AV- &hen 3 was a little )id @aggedy Ann and Andy were really old e,en by that time, but they were still )ind of o ular, still a ,iable toy% Now eo le just see them as a nostalgia thing, from what 3 could tell% "#- &ell, 3 thin) a lot of things are that way% 3 mean its retty amaJing those things had the shelf life they did, really% 3 mean, art of it was because Raggedy Ann was a childrens boo) to start with, so the boo)s always )e t it going% 5robably by the time the mo,ie came out those characters were right on the cus of nobody remembering them, and then the mo,ie just )ind of sealed it4 AV- Now, at the Aladdin reunion they had at the #lendale library, 3 thin) 'om !ito was tal)ing about, :0eah, we had these really great mo,ies li)e .ittle *ermaid, 7eauty and the 7east, Aladdin, .ion Fing<= and he sto ed right there% 'hen hes all, :And then it went<= he said something li)e :went downhill=, not li)e that but something that )ind of indicated that and then you said, :0eah, it was 5ocahontasI fault%= And then ;ohn *us)er said, :3 always thought it was 'reasure 5lanetIs fault%= "#- 3 thin) 5ocahontasI biggest sin is that it didnt do .ion Fing boA office% AV- &ell 3 remember 3 had brought somebody with me to that reunion and 3 )new she li)ed 5ocahontas so 3 was telling her on the way u who was going to be there% 3 told her, :0eah, the guy who directed 5ocahontas is going and he did the #enie from Aladdin%= And she said, :3 loooo,e 5ocahontas%= And she went u and told you that% "#- 0eah, that was ,ery nice to hear% AV- And she was sincere about it too% !o when 3 saw her tal)ing to you 3 went o,er and said, :3 thin) what eo le thin) is if it didnt do .ion Fing boA office it must therefore be com letely worthless%= And its this )ind of thin)ing, you )now/ "#- &ell, it was a retty strange thing when it came out% 3 thin) it did something li)e M>N2 million domestic, and ME11 million worldwide% AV- 3n >??1 e,en% "#- 0eah, in >??1, and fran)ly it was only a little bit behind 'oy !tory of the same year% 7ut because it didnt do MO22 million it was a failure4 AV- 0eah, 7rad 7ird said, when 'he 3ncredibles was about to come out, :3f this doesnt ma)e the money Nemo made and more then e,erybodys going to say its a failure,= and it did a little bit less than Finding Nemo%

"#- &ell, eo les yardstic)s are nuts these days% First of all you ha,e to )ill on the o ening wee)end or your mo,ies dead% 3ts li)e o ening a show on 7roadway now, eAce t it costs M>12, ME22 million dollars% 3ts because the studios financially gain the most from the o ening wee)end, and then they gain less and less as the mo,ie continues its release, so they ut it all on the o ening wee)end% 7ut it doesnt allow for a mo,ie to find its audience% 3ts li)e- :3s there an audience here/ No/ #oodbye%= And, you )now, its interesting, a small mo,ie li)e Na oleon Dynamite cost under half a million dollars to ma)e and made a hundred million at the boA office% And then the DVD sales went through the roof% Now thats a hit% As far as 3m concerned thats the way you ma)e a mo,ie% Fee costs low and you let it hang around to find its audience% AV- 3 )new it had some real boA office legs because 3 saw it after it had been out three or four months and then it )e t going and then it ee)ed its way into the 'o >2, which is unusual, for something to wor) its way u into the 'o >2% !o, bac) to 5ocahontas% &hat are the strongest memories of wor)ing on that/ "#- 'he most mo,ing thing about wor)ing on 5ocahontas was actually tal)ing to the Nati,e American ad,isors that we had, and them feeling for the most art that we were really getting it right% 3 dont care what ,arious eo le will say- :&ell, she was only ? and he was PC%= 0ou )now, she was >E, which was of marriageable age, he was EN% 'hey hadnt seen women in three months% 3 do belie,e something ha ened, you )now% 3n any case, 3 thin) we did right by her story and her legend% And, li)e 3 said, the ad,isors that we had on the show for the most art were ,ery mo,ed by what we were doing because they could see, articularly in #randmother &illow, articularly in the use of the *other ! irit in the lea,es, that there were things that were ,ery ertinent to them that we were including that wasnt just :Disnefying= stuff% 'here was a oint where some eo le were in tears because they were so ha y that it had been done to that degree% And, of course, one of the main ro onents was @ussell *eans% Now, 3 do ha,e a funny story about @ussell% &hen he came in to actually read for 5owhatan, we figured, :()ay, hes going to nail us on something% ()ay, major 3ndian acti,ist, hes going to loo) at something in the scri t, hes going to fry us%= !o, he reads for us% 3ts beautiful% 3t sounds wonderful% And then he goes, :!o 3,e got a 6uestion for you guys%= Hh oh, o)ay, here it comes% +e says, :!o you guys record the ,oices first and then you do the drawings/= And we went, :0es, @ussell, yes4 'hats eAactly what we do4= +e was great% +e was ,ery hel ful in contributing on hrases and customs and things li)e that that we included in the mo,ie% 3 find it highly interesting that the u coming New &orld, 'erence *alic)s film, not only loo)s eAactly li)e our 5ocahontas shot for shot but e,en has our same casting% AV- @eally/ "#- 0eah, its got Christian 7ale in it% 3ts got 3rene 7edard% Not as 5ocahontas, as 5ocahontas mother% 3 mean, its unbelie,able how close it is, and 3 thin) there was a lot, ersonally, of re,erse racism that went on with 5ocahontas in that we would get criticiJed by certain eo le who would say, :&ell, theres no way that 5ocahontas was im ossibly beautiful,= you )now/ :3ts im ossible that 5ocahontas loo)ed that beautiful%= &hich is basically li)e saying no American 3ndian could loo) that retty, which is bull, and, in fact, @ussell *eans daughter loo)ed eAactly li)e her% 3rene 7edard loo)ed eAactly li)e her% And if youre going to tell me that thats im ossible then, boy, are you blin)ered% AV- &ell, its got to be frustrating for you when you see these eo le just ma)e these baseless accusations% "#- 0ou )now, 3m certainly not going to say that we didnt change things in order to ma)e a mo,ie% &e did% No 6uestion% 3 thin) what we did was try to retain the s irit of the story, the s irit of the characters, and, fran)ly, redress a little balance% 3m still watching mo,ies on A*C where all the

3ndians are bad, they had years of those of those things, and 3 thin) it was one reason @ussell *eans was so su orti,e because this wasnt that, and it was coming out from a major studio% .ets ut it this way, if 5ocahontas did half of .ion FingIs business that is still millions and millions and millions of eo le who ha,e seen it and been affected by it% 'heres nothing wrong with that% AV- 3t ma)es me thin) of a cou le other things because at the Aladdin reunion @on and ;ohn were tal)ing about how they were concerned that they ortray Arabs correctly, without being too delicate or wal)ing on eggshells or whate,er% "#- @ight, right% AV- 7ut it was still a definite concern for them% 'hey said they ran e,erything ast that one guy, @asoul/ "#- @asoul AJadani, our head of layout% AV- And he was fine with it% "#- 0e % And also one of my #enie animators, ;oe +aidar, also Arabic, and he was fine with e,erything% 0ou )now, its the )ind of thing where the freewheeling nature of Aladdin should,e been enough for eo le not to worry too much about how a articular grou was resented, while 3 will say that the animation medium itself is rone to caricature, and sometimes that cannot be entirely a,oided if youre ma)ing a ,ery cartoony mo,ie% 3 do not hold truc) with any of the stuff that came out where they say, :&ell, all the good guys are white and all the bad guys are Arabs%= 'hats ridiculous% Fine, Aladdin and ;asmine sound li)e mall rats, ;afar sounds li)e hes 7ritish, and 3agos from 7roo)lyn% !o gi,e me a brea)4 AV- 'hey miAed things u in 'he .ion Fing li)e that too% "#- 3ts the )ind of thing where that just holds no water, none% 3 always loo)ed at Aladdin li)e an animation ,ersion of A Funny 'hing +a ened on the &ay to the Forum% !lightly olitically incorrect but a lot of fun, and just a huge burles6ue% AV- Now 3 ha,e a friend whos art$!amoan and art$+awaiian and 3 )new him for robably ten, fifteen years before 3 found out what his ethnicity was because he would ne,er say, and he )ind of wanted to not tal) about it, but when .ilo & !titch came out, hes all, :Come on, we ha,e to go see this, the +awaiian art of me is genetically com elliing me to go see this mo,ie%= !o we went and saw it and he said, :'hat ortrayed +awaiians the most accurately of any mo,ie 3,e e,er seen%= 'hen later on, on some message board somebody, a non$+awaiian erson, was saying, :(h, that mo,ie ortrayed +awaiians so stereoty ed and this and that<= but 3m li)e, :&hat you say holds no water when my +awaiian friend tells me otherwise,= you )now/ "#- 'here are eo le who will use o ular mo,ies li)e Disney films as latforms for their own agendas and thats ,ery sad to me, but Disney is a big and easy target, because its so ublic and so huge% 3 imagine there will be not nearly as much criticism of New &orld as there was of 5ocahontas because 3 sus ect not as many eo le are going to see it% AV- 'he way 3 heard about New &orld was on a message board where somebody was saying, :'heres this li,e$action mo,ie coming out about 5ocahontas and maybe theyre going to get it right%= !o 3 thought, :3 gotta go loo) at this trailer%= 3t loo)ed retty good, the cinematogra hy and all loo)ed good% 7ut it says right on there, :7ased on the legends%= "#- 0e % AV- 'hey cant be any more accurate than the Disney mo,ie% 7ut when you come out saying, :7ased on the legend,= youre co,ering yourself, saying, :&ere doing the best we can%= "#- 0eah, its based on the legend, which is what we did% 3n any case, its a contro,ersial mo,ie for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is that it was based on eo le who actually eAisted, so that is always going to be a contro,ersial subject on which a lot of eo le ha,e a lot of o inions, you

)now, and 3 absolutely acce t that% At the end of the day you ma)e your choices and some of them are indi,idual choices and most of them are collaborati,e choices that we all arri,e at together, in order to go forward ma)ing a mo,ie, and there are many things that 3m still roud of% @asoul AJadani was our head of layout on that one too and 3 actually thin) those are the most stunning layouts hes e,er done in his career% 'heyre beautiful% *i)e #iaimos art direction was stunning% AV- &as it su osed to ha,e a little bit of a *ary 7lair influence to it/ "#- 3t was a little more "y,ind "arle$ish, lets ut it that way% 3 )now *i)e #iaimo and *i)e #abriel and 3 were influenced by "y,ind "arle and art of it was wanting to resent the new world as so beautiful and ristine that it would be a shame if something ha ened to it% And what @asoul does is gi,es things scale thats unbelie,able, 3,e ne,er seen anybody get scale into layouts the way that he can and so the en,ironment is as much a character in that mo,ie as anybody else is because youre really tal)ing about it and showing it in a s ectacular way% 3s it heightened/ !ure% (f course its heightened% ",erythings heightened in a mo,ie% AV- 'hats your o ortunity to bring out the art of real life% "#- 0eah% 0ou )now, if youre not ma)ing artistic choices then just ut some film in a camera and shoot% And of course eo le ma)e artistic choices when theyre shooting li,e$action as well, so 3 mean its )ind of a non$argument as far as 3m concerned% 3f youre styliJing the land to say how beautiful it is in order to oint out how bad it is if it gets wrec)ed then youre ma)ing an artistic choice to ma)e a story oint% &hats wrong with that/ 0oure using the ,isuals to hel tell that story% AV- Now the whole If I e!er Kne" #ou scene was already done and in the can retty much, but the re rise was com leted recently for the DVD/ "#- 0es, the re rise we ne,er animated in the original ,ersion% If I e!er Kne" #ou was com letely animatedL all it needed was cleanu and color and that was all ready to go, but the re rise, which had been written and recorded, we decided not to ut in the final mo,ie at that time, but it is now ut in and 3 li)e them both, you )now/ 3ts the )ind of thing where 3 actually )now many eo le who felt it was really the heart of the mo,ie, as far as 5ocahontas and ;ohn !miths relationshi % &hen it got cut after the re,iew, they felt there was a hole there and 3 could certainly see that% At the time, its ,ery difficult to )now how to res ond to test audiences% 3n hindsight, 3 would say that the test audience was the wrong test audience, and we acted Q ossibly o,erreacted Q because the eo le who were not res onding to it were eo le who would not be caught dead in a Disney mo,ie in the first lace anyway% !o it )ind of falsifies what your reactions should be, based on that )ind of an audience, and it ma)es me unha y that we were influenced in that way by a system that is not eAactly flawless% AV- 3 wonder if you could just get eo le that you )now are interested in Disney mo,ies% "#- &ell, yeah, but they dont want to do that% 'hey want a com letely objecti,e audience to wal) in there cold, but when eo le go to see a mo,ie they urchase a tic)et to a articular mo,ie because they want to see it for some reason% 'hey dont just wal) in cold and say :!ur rise me%= 'heyre shelling out ten dollars% !o, why shouldnt that )ind of logic a ly to test audiences as well/ 3t seems a little mad not to% AV- ;oe #rant came u with a lot of good gagsL a lot of the animal things/ "#- @ight% ;oe was our animal guy% Actually ;oe was our e,erything guy, because ;oe came u with the lea,es as 5ocahontas mother% AV- +e came u with the lea,es/ 7ecause 3 thought he o)ed fun at that later on%

"#- (h, he does% ;oe was always wry% AV- !o he was o)ing fun at himself% "#- &ell, yeah% !omebody as)ed him what he thought and he said, :'oo much colored wind%= And its the )ind of thing where he would o)e fun at himself but he was actually ,ery roud of his contributions on 5ocahontas, all the *ee)o stuff where they get stuc) in the log together and dance bac) and forth, thats ;oe% 'here were just lots of early drawings of 5ercy, being a ,ery fo ish ug, and some ,ery stunning ,isuals li)e the shadows cast of the 7ritish and the 3ndians on the clouds coming together for sa,ages, that was ;oe, and its the )ind of thing where 3 thin) a lot of eo le just thin) of him as, :(h, hes old Disney charm%= &ell, he is, but he came u with a lot of great other stuff too that was ,ery, ,ery strong% And 3 thin) what a lot of eo le dont understand about the way ;oe wor)ed was that ;oe wasnt the )ind of guy who would wal) into a room and ontificate about what youre doing% AV- 0ou said he was always sli ing notes under eo les doors% "#- 0eah, he was a re,erse ac) rat% +e would just lea,e things under the door and scuttle away and yet, by doing that he was this nuclear generator of ideas% 3t was unbelie,able how rolific he was in that way and how much of ;oe e,entually did get in the mo,ie% And, of course, he was not one to hide his o inions% !o he would say, :3n the blan)$blan)$blan) here= if he felt ,ery strongly about it% AV- &as he retty in tune with how the whole thing was falling in lace and coming together/ "#- Very much% 7ut its the )ind of thing where he felt 6uite a )inshi with *i)e #abriel% +e really was wor)ing ,ery closely with him for about a year e,en before 3 got on% 3 thin) actually of all the mo,ies hes wor)ed on in the ast se,eral years at Disney, 5ocahontas is the one he robably had the biggest stam on% And hes had good contributions on all of them, but 3 thin) that one was robably the most ersonal for whate,er reason, and it may ha,e just been the relationshi with him and *i)e and the fact that *i)e so ,alued ;oes o inion and his artistry% AV- !o *i)e was on 5ocahontas first/ "#- 0eah, 3 was the second shotgun director% 'he film was *i)es idea% +e had resented it and 3 had ne,er seen anybody say yes to a mo,ie so 6uic)ly in my life% &hat had ha ened was he actually had )ind of a rough title card that loo)ed li)e 5rincess 'igerlily and it said, :&alt Disneys 5ocahontas= and he holds it u and he says, :'he story of a Nati,e American rincess who has to choose between her lo,e of a 7ritish sailor and the needs of her own eo le,= and *ichael "isner goes, :0es, lets ma)e it%= And its li)e, :+oley moley%= And it turns out that "isner had actually been searching for some form of a @omeo and ;uliet story to do in animation and when *i)e resented 5ocahontas there it was% +e just thought, :'hats the one%= !o it got an immediate green light% AV- 0ou were saying with all the notes youd get from ;oe you would ma)e a :;oe drawer=% "#- 0e , absolutely% And youd o en u the :;oe drawer= once in a while and youd ull out one of the drawings and youd go, :0eah, that one% &e need that right there%= 'he other thing too is that there were a lot of things that ;oe would come u with that werent e,er used in the mo,ie but he created an atmos here of creati,e fertility by doing that, if you )now what 3 mean% 5lus, just by )ee ing these ideas generating it was ,ery remar)able% AV- &ere they always drawn or was it sometimes just words/ "#- For the most art it was drawings, e,en if its just a little doodle, but drawings%

AV- &ell, we got on to this to ic and 3 ha,e with me this big long list of 6uestions to as)% !omebody else wants to as), :&hen wor)ing on 5ocahontas, were you ins ired by the abandoned Hia"atha roject artwor)/= "#- 3 was% .ess me than *i)e and *i)e Q *i)e #abriel and *i)e #iaimo% 3t did ha,e an influence% Dic) Felseys artwor) in articular was a big influence, and you can see certain ieces that were influential on, say, the way the Sa!ages number was staged and eAecuted% 'hat certainly had the Dic) Felsey influence from +iawatha% 3ts the )ind of thing where by the time 3 got on the roject it was more about story, story, story and *i)e and *i)e were already heading down a certain road in art direction% (f course 3 had a say, but 3 had a huge amount of trust and faith in *i)e #iaimo% 3 remember sitting in dailies, and the first color comes u on Sa!ages% And 5owhatan is ur le, and hes against this bright yellow fire% And 3m going, :()ay, 3 )now youre going to ma)e it wor)4= AV- 'hats funny% 'he #enie was the first thing you actually did for Disney, right/ "#- 0es, thats right% AV- And then you went right into directing for Disney after that% &as that )ind of 6uic)/ "#- 3ts the )ind of thing where 3 li)e doing both% 3 lo,e animating% 3 lo,e directing% 'he studio )new 3 wanted to do both% At the time 3 thin) all the lead eo le had already been gi,en o,er on .ion Fing so they felt, :Do you want to co$direct with *i)e on 5ocahontas/= And so they itched me the mo,ie% AV- &as there e,er a ossibility you might wor) on .ion Fing/ "#- 'here robably was, but so much had already been done and decided on .ion Fing that 3m not sure they were e,er really considering me in that in that ,ein% 'hey wanted a co$director with *i)e and 3 thin) the difficulty for me was that5ocahontas turned out to be a much more serious mo,ie than 3 had originally antici ated% AV- 3t was su osed to be more layful/ "#- 0eah, in the earlier ,ersions% AV- &himsical, maybe/ "#- &ell, whimsical and satirical to a certain eAtent% 3 always felt that you could tal) about rejudice in a ,ery satirical way and be just as effecti,e% And we went down that road for 6uite some time until it was ,ery clear that ;effrey 8FatJenberg9 really wanted a ,ery, ,ery, ,ery seriously$told story, and, in fact we )ind of had to go through a no jo)es ass until he was satisfied enough with the way the story was going% 'hen we )ind of had to wedge comedy bric)s bac) into an already built dramatic house, with the animals% AV- 0eah, most of the comedy just comes from the animals retty much% "#- 0es, and thats why% And my feeling is that, sadly, you could ta)e the animals out of that mo,ie and still ha,e the same mo,ie, you )now/ 'he animals are a good mirror to what the humans are doing but essentially they are not art of the lot, not really, which 3 find a shame% 7ut its the road we were forced to go down in order to tell the story ,ery seriously% 0ou )now, it was more whimsical, it was more satirical, it was lighter in tone when 3 got on to it% 5eter !chneider said, :&ell, its going to be more li)e 7eauty and the 7east than Aladdin%= And 3 thought, :&ell, o)ay, 3 can acce t that%= AV- And then it ended u e,en more serious than 7eauty and the 7east% "#- "Aactly, thats the thing% 3t turned into something far more serious% 7ut at the end of the day, it had its challenges, and one of the things that 3 miss is that we had ,oice actors cast for the animals% 'he decision to ma)e them antomime was a tough one for me in articular, but 3 thin) a lot of eo le feel it was the right decision for the tone of the mo,ie, and 3 agree you couldnt ha,e had tal)ing animals, not for the tone of the mo,ie that we currently ha,e%

AV- &ere you lanning on ha,ing dialogue or just ma)ing animal noises/ "#- Dialogue% 3n fact, 3d gone to "ngland to do some ,oice recording with eo le 3 wanted to cast% 3 wanted to ha,e !te hen Fry as 5ercy and 3 wanted to ha,e +ugh .aurie as &iggins and we had other eo le come inL we had @obbie Coltrane come in and do @atcliffe and he was hilarious% 'hey finally let me ha,e 7illy Connolly% AV- @obbie Coltrane, hes the guy who lays +agrid/ "#- 'hats right, in +arry 5otter% All these guys were o ular comics in "ngland% 3 had Chris 7arrie come in, who eo le might )now as Arnold @immer in @ed Dwarf, and he also had been doing all the u et ,oices for ! itting 3mage in .ondon at the time% Very, ,ery good with ,oices, he did a )iller @eagan and he did some @atcliffe reading and that was ,ery funny% 7ut it was decided they didnt really want to fly to "ngland to record ,oices, because they had already )ind of shot that wad on .ion Fing with ;eremy 3rons and so they wanted to contain the eA ense a little bit more on 5ocahontas, so we had to settle for eo le who were here% And 3 shouldnt say :settle= because Da,id (gden !tiers did a fine job% 3n fact, when he first ut his @atcliffe stuff down, the engineer who was recording him was 7ritish, and 3 as)ed the engineer, :!o how do you thin) he sounds/ Do you thin) he sounds 7ritish/= And the guy went, in a Coc)ney accent, :&hat/ 0ou mean he isnt/= !o that was great and he certainly had the 7ritish guy absolutely con,inced4 AV- (utside of the animation fandom and eo le that go to all the A!3FA e,ents, what does the general ublic most )now you for/ "#- 5robably the #enie% 3 mean 3,e done a lot of other things, but the #enie is robably my signature% (f my Disney wor) 3 am robably the most roud of the #enie and our two Fantasia se6uences, and 3 say :our= because 3 include !usan in that% !usan did a stunning job on art direction and, fran)ly, we both wor)ed together in terms of story content too% AV- Another 6uestion somebody wanted me to as) was if your husbandKwife relationshi hel ed create some sort of synergy on those $antasia%&''' se6uences% "#- Absolutely% Absolutely, and its the )ind of thing where the good thing about wor)ing with !usan is she )nows what 3 can do and 3 )now what she can do, and we both bat around content all the time, either on our own rojects or rojects were wor)ing on for other studios% !hes actually got a ,ery, ,ery good story sense as well% A cou le times when 3 was in a rut on @ha sody, li)e, :()ay, ;oes got to ice s)ate here% &hat do 3 ha,e him do/= !he said, :+a,e him ma)e a dollar sign%= 7ecause he needs the cash, you )now, and there were other contributions li)e that as well that !usan came u with that were great% AV- 3 )now she did the water color stuff on Carni,al (f 'he Animals, right/ 3 wasnt really clear what she did on @ha sody in 7lue% "#- !he art directed the entire thing% !he art directed both, you )now, those are her color alettes% 3 dont thin) eo le understand how im ortant color is in ma)ing these films successful% 3 could thin) of many cases in recent animation where the color choices were ,ery oor and you cant just say, :&ell, its color that made it do bad at the boA office,= but it certainly is an ingredient and an im ortant one in eo les emotional res onse to the material, you )now/ And 3m a ,ery edestrian guy with color< the s)y is blue, the tree is brown, the grass is green, and !usan is not, and thats whats great% 3t is ,ery, ,ery sur rising what she comes u with and it always loo)s great and harmonious together% 3 always li)e eo le who use color for emotional ,alue rather than for realistic content% 3 find that far more interesting and there really isnt much of that eA erimentation that goes

on in animation these days, fran)ly, es ecially with C#3 where eo le want things to be retty realistic$loo)ing% 'hey want to see e,ery blade of grass% AV- 0our own Al +irshfeld influences are clear in your character designs% +ow did the #enie come about, and what was his reaction to you drawing in his style/ "#- +irschfeld didnt )now about it% +alfway through the film we were in New 0or) to do a ress rollout% !o 3 honed him u L belie,e it or not he was in the hone boo)4 3 honed him u and 3 say, :+i, you dont )now me but my names "ric #oldberg and 3m wor)ing on a Disney feature right now called Aladdin and were doing a resentation here about ma)ing it% 3 would lo,e for you to come down because we ac)nowledge how influential your wor) was on the film and we really want you to )now just how highly we regard your wor) and how its really hel ed us%= And he said, 8does a +irschfeld im ression9 :&ell, 3d lo,e to come down but, you )now, 3 got this deadline for 'he New 0or) 'imesL 3 gotta do three drawings by *onday and so another time maybe%= And 3 hang u the hone and 3 thin), :'he guys CD and he still has deadlines4= AV- &ere you ner,ous to call him/ "#- (h #od, yes, absolutely% 3ll get to my real ner,ousness now though% !o, flash forward to a charity wor)$in$ rogress screening of Aladdin at 'he *useum of *odern Art% &e were all in,ited to come to New 0or) for that and 3m standing at the entrance with !usan and my brother "lliot who came u from New ;ersey, and 5eter !chneider, who was resident of Feature Animation, wal)s ast us and goes, :(h, by the way, youre Al and Dolly +irschfelds minders tonight%= 'hats when the alms started sweating% !o we see them arri,e, they ull u in the limo, and we introduce oursel,es% 3nside 3m li)e, :(h my #od4= And hes sitting neAt to us and the whole time 3m sweating bullets cause what if he hates it/ &hat if he hates it/ &hat if he wants to sue me/ &hat if</ #od )nows what could ossibly ha en% &ell, he lo,ed it% 3t was so nice, he was so gracious and one of the biggest com liments that we got, and 3 say Iwe because its a com liment for the entire crew on the show, he said, :3t loo)s li)e it was all drawn by one hand%= &hich, from him, is a huge com liment% 3 dont )now if you,e e,er seen any of his early essays about Disney filmsL he wrote a iece for 'he New 0or)er about !now &hite called :Art or 'aAidermy/= and what he was tal)ing about is how the dwar,es were great animation creations but that the eo le loo)ed too stiff, because they had been rotosco ed and because theyre in a com letely different art style% 3t was a ,ery critical article and 3 )now a lot of Disney eo le who still bridle at it% 7ut 3 understand what hes tal)ing about, so for him to loo) at Aladdin and say it was all drawn by one hand, thats a huge com liment from him and he lo,ed the mo,ie% 3n the end of the day 3 thin) it hel ed, it hel ed him as much as it hel ed us% 3t )ind of ga,e him a lot more ublic recognition again, for him to sell his rints and things li)e that through *argo Feiden, and we remained friends since that oint% A year later he came out to the Disney !tudios and did a wee) of teaching% +e taught caricature lessons and 3 did a cou le of onstage inter,iews with him% +e and Dolly were out for a wee), we got to ta)e them to Disneyland, and at that time we had resented to him the notion of doing @ha sody in 7lue Rand this was in >??OS as art of continuingFantasia% 3 as)ed him to design all the characters in it% A wee) or so later, he wrote a ,ery gracious letter bac) that basically said, :3f 3 was fifty years younger 3d jum at the chance but 3m afraid 3m going to ha,e to say no,= and 3 felt disa ointed but we didnt gi,e u % AV- +e was in his eighties then/ "#- &ell, he was in his nineties% And 3 continued to corres ond with him and ,isit him and we e,entually got him to agree to ada t any of his eAisting wor), in other words, he would trust us, !usan and me, to ada t any of his re$eAisting wor) if @ha sody e,er got made% !o, e,ery time we

would see him then in New 0or) subse6uently hed go, :!o, whats the news on @ha sody/= And so, for se,en years, until finally they said yes it was always the to ic of con,ersation% AV- !o the whole idea for @ha sody in 7lue had been ercolating for a while/ "#- A long time, a long time, and it wasnt really until Fingdom of the !un went down for retooling and came bac) as"m erors New #roo,e that the studio finally allowed us to ma)e it, because then they had an animation crew with nothing to do, so all of a sudden there was this great o ening of talent and they said, :()ay, now you can ma)e it%= !o we did% AV- 3 thin) one time 3 saw you with a bag that said Fantasia Continued% 'hats what it was going to be called, right/ "#- 0eah, it was going to be called a lot of things% 'hat was one of them% 3t was going to be called Fantasia >??? as well% 3 said, :;ust dro the other shoe and call it FantasiaKE222%= AV- #i,es you an eAtra year 3 guess4 Now, when e,erybody tal)ed about the #enie and the $riend Like (e se6uence, to me its almost )ind of li)e what animation had been waiting to build u to, you )now/ 7ecause its so animated and bombastic% &ere you trying to ma)e it reach out and grab eo le/ (r were you just li)e, :&ell, we need to ha,e a song about how he can hel Aladdin%=/ "#- 0ou )now, heres the funny thing- 3ts the )ind of animation 3 lo,e doing and had been doing on my own in "ngland for the longest time% &hen 3 got to Disneys e,erybody )e t saying, :(h, its great to see that broad stuff again%= And its li)e, :&ell, it isnt broad to me% 'his is what 3,e been doing for the ast se,eral years%= 7ut its the )ind of thing where absolutely it was a show iece for @obin 8&illiams9 and it was a show iece for the song and it was a show iece for animation% +ere you ha,e a character that can transform himself into anything and you ha,e a song that tells you about it% AV- And he can wal) out of his own mouth% "#- 0eah% &hat better o ortunity to just go com letely haywire with it/ And a lot of credit has to go to "d #ombert, who was head of story% +e actually had the initial ass on $riend Like (e, e,en before @obin had signed, and a lot of the ideas li)e dancing with his hands and stuff li)e that came from "d% +e had the face$li)e hands in his early storyboards% !o 3 thin) e,en though eo le consider that my signature, 3 ha,e to gi,e a big ti of the hat to "d on that stuff too% 'he thing about recording it< its a slightly bittersweet story because +oward Ashman had just assed away and of course Alan *en)en was feeling ,ery, ,ery sensiti,e about +oward and his contribution to the mo,ie as well as his contributions to all the other Disney mo,ies% 0ou see, when +oward and Alan originally concei,ed the song they concei,ed it as )ind of a barrelhouse, Cab CallowayKFats &aller number and they really wanted it sung li)e that and layed li)e that% ;ohn and @on and 3 wanted @obin to go nuts in the booth% !o Alan had @obin record what @obin called :the torture trac)= which was basically note$for$note correctly sung and then once it was down and Alan was satisfied we got @obin aside and said, :()ay, youre #roucho here, youre a Fairy #odmother here, youre this here<= AV- 0oure a surfer dude here< "#- 0eah, and he goes into the booth and lets it blast and in two ta)es we had e,erything we wanted and Alan was< not ha y because a lot of it was not sung articularly well because he was doing different ,oice iterations% 3t was more tal)$singing than singing$singing, if you )now what 3 mean, and because of his sensiti,ity to +oward, which 3 totally understand, it was a sore oint for him% Hltimately, 3 felt then, and 3 feel now, it was eAactly the right thing to do for the iece% 0ou cant ha,e @obin &illiams do a number and not ta)e full ad,antage of it% AV- +is ,oice just goes a million directions at once, its just all o,er the board%

"#- 0eah, and its li)e denying what the guy is great at% !o 3 actually always felt 6uite a duty when we were doing Aladdin that 3 gi,e the audience a really good @obin &illiams erformance% 'hey had to wal) out of there and laugh as much as they would at @obin &illiams li,e and that was ,ery im ortant to me% 3 felt li)e it would,e been a highly disa ointing thing for them to go to a Disney mo,ie and not feel entertained in that way% AV- "s ecially when you ha,e @obin &illiams being unleashed by the animation medium% Now, when they had that DVD remiere last year at the "l Ca itan and they had the screening of it< 3 always li)e to see mo,ies that ha,e been out for a long time to see the audiences reaction, and 3m thin)ing, :",ery house in America has the ,ideota e of this so they )now what its all about,= and it gets to that se6uence and it just brings down the house% ",erybodys seen it many times before but it just mo,ed e,erybody% "#- *y fa,orite Disney animators were Freddy *oore and &ard Fimball and its robably no sur rise% 3n articular &ard Fimball for his eA erimentation and his attem t at being a studio ma,eric)% +e would basically throw anything in that he thought would fly% And 3 thought, :&ell, this is the )ind of stuff that follows those lines%= TTTTTTT