Interview of Richard Huemer 1.1.

TAPE NUMBER I: Side One, (July 24, 1968

ADAMSON

Just to start with, I'll ask you when you were born.
HUEMER

I was born in Brooklyn, January the second, 1898: the turn of the century.
ADAMSON

And you first started to draw at the age of four.

HUEMER

es. If you'll !ardon a turn of the century !un""I first started to draw #y breath at the age of one #inute. I beca#e interested in ani#ation when I was about ten years old, and I used to ani#ate little figures in notebooks, and fli! the#, little figures of bo$ing, or athletic e%ents, and that really was the first ani#ation I e%er did. I got the idea fro# little !hotogra!hic ani#ation books that were current at the ti#e. Incidentally, that's where &insor 'c(ay got his ideas to do ani#ation, I understand fro# his son, who# I #et, while we were working on a )isney !icture. *here had been a fire in the drugstore in the neighborhood, and they found nu#erous of these little fli!books, which were about three inches s+uare, and you fla!!ed the#, and you saw a little scene. I su!!ose they had been fil#s. *hey used to gi%e the# away in drugstores as an ad%ertise#ent.
ADAMSON

&ere you scribbling in your own school notebooks,

HUEMER

*hat's right. I#itating the#. I was the local high school cartoonist. I went to 'orris -igh .chool in the Bron$, and Ale$ander -a#ilton in Brooklyn. And in both cases I drew cartoons for the annuals, and where%er cartoons were needed for bulletin boards. I always liked to draw, in other words.

*he first fil# I e%er saw was the /elson"0an1 fight, which was at (oney Island. It was a fil# of the fight, of course. *hey had signs outside of these little restaurants, which said, 'Basket 2arties &elco#e.' &hich #eant that you could go into these !laces, which were filled with tables, and #y father would order a glass of beer or coffee, and hot dogs for us kids, and we would o!en our sandwiches and eat the#, and they would !ro3ect these strange #o%ies. 4ne of which was the /elson"0an1 fight, and I'# sure we saw so#e of 5u#iere's and other 6rench !roducer's !ictures then. In shocking !ink color, so#e of the# were. Ani#ated cartoon #o%ies were done then by so#ebody nobody e%er #entions: &allace (arlson. -e did so#ething called ')rea#y )ud.' And I saw those about 1917 at the local theaters in the Bron$.
ADAMSON

*his is after &insor 'c(ay.

HUEMER

About the sa#e ti#e. I saw his '0ertie the )inosaur' at the (retona *heater in the Bron$8 and I was therefore able to recreate it later on a )isney *.9. show, where we reenacted 'c(ay's !erfor#ance including the !icture '0ertie' which, of course, as you know, still e$ists.
ADAMSON

&hat were your reactions to these fil#s,

HUEMER

&e didn't ha%e the e$!ression then but if we had, I would ha%e said I 'fli!!ed.' I really was sold on ani#ated cartoons. In%ol%e#ent with li%e"action fil#s see#ed out of reach. :s!ecially as I liked to draw. I s!ent about a year at art school: Art .tudents' 5eague, in /ew ork (ity. I studied under Bridge#an, the fa#ous anato#y teacher. ;eally was fa#ous. )idn't rub off #uch on #e though.
ADAMSON

&hat did you do, 3ust sketch nudes and things,

HUEMER

es, that's right. .tudied anato#y and !ainted a little. But I always wanted to be a cartoonist. <! in 6ordha#, where I li%ed, al#ost e%ery day I !assed a sign on the door of the building o!!osite the uni%ersity, which said, ';aoul Barre: (artoonist.' And this intrigued #e to no end, and I walked u! the stairs, and walked into the ani#ating business. &hen ;aoul Barre 5ooked u! fro# his desk and said, 'what can I do for you,' in his strange (anadian brogue, I said, 'I would like a 3ob.' -e said, ' ou would like a 3ob,' I said, ' es.' -e said, '0o to the ne$t roo# and sit down, they'll !ut you to work.' It was as si#!le as that. And they !ut #e to work at so#ething that was called tracing. *his was about 191= and they were doing 'utt and Jeff cartoons. I had to +uit high school to go to the 5eague, that's how #uch I wanted to be an artist, and now I was +uitting the 5eague to go into cartooning. I was abandoning the fine arts. *hey already had the cell syste#, but it was not the way it's done today, which is the cells o!a+ued, to fit o%er the background. 4ur cells were used to contain the background and whate%er lines on a scene were not 'disturbed' by the character. All the action was carried on the !a!er. &e inked on !a!er, with %ery flashy techni+ues, in the i#itation of -einrich >ley, once in a while. And I would take a series of cells that fitted o%er the !a!er to co#!lete the !icture. If the character walked in front of an ob3ect, the drawings that it took for hi# to !ass that ob3ect had to ha%e whate%er he 'disturbed' drawn on that drawing. *hat's where the tracing ca#e in, we traced that thing in the background onto those fi%e or si$ drawings while he was !assing the ob3ect. And then that went on celluloid and stayed there, because he wasn't disturbing it any #ore. But he was walking in front of so#ething else now, and then that had to be traced. In other words, we broke the scene down into little grou!s of areas that were disturbed, so that we could trace those onto !a!er. *he foreground stuff was on celluloid, and the ceiling would be on celluloid""which was ne%er disturbed. .o it took about three celluloids. I think that's the #ost we used. And then with the !a!er, you had your co#!lete fra#e. I was doing the tracing, fro# the background that so#ebody laid out. I didn't do it %ery long8 in three weeks, I was ani#ating. *hat's how easy it was in those days. *he staff consisted of about fi%e ani#ators, and about fi%e or si$ tracers. Actually, there weren't #ore than fifteen !eo!le at the

studio. Barre #ade one fil# a week, that ne%er ran o%er 7?@ feet. And, belie%e it or not, it cost about a thousand dollars. And that's what he got for it, about a thousand dollars. *he #ost he e%er got was 1?@@ dollars.
ADAMSON

-ow did you get your !ro#otion,

HUEMER

By asking for it. And the genial french#an said, '&hy not,' -e was a %ery fine gentle#an. Ani#ation in those days was not a difficult art. If it #o%ed, it was good. Actually, the no%elty carried it. *he business got into trouble when the no%elty wore off, and the !eo!le e$!ected to see gags, and better ani#ation and better ideas. &hich, of course, )isney e%entually succeeded in doing.
ADAMSON

-ow funny were these fil#s at the ti#e you wandered in,
HUEMER

As we used to say in those days, as funny as a crutch. *his was an e$!ression. *hey weren't funny, actually. *hey really weren't. &e got %ery few laughs. I can re#e#ber taking #y fa#ily to see so#e bit of ani#ation I was !articularly !roud of, and, 3ust as it went on, so#ebody behind #e said, '4h, I hate these things.' &e actually didn't consider the audiences as #uch as we should ha%e. &e did things #ore or less to !lease oursel%es. It was as though we were en3oying oursel%es, doing what we liked, what we thought was funny. It was 3ust not understandable to audiences, %ery often. &e were gi%en a !ortion of the !icture, o%er a %ery rough scenario. 9ery, %ery sketchy, no boards like we ha%e today, nothing like that. *he scenario would !robably be on a single sheet of !a!er, without any #odels, sketches, or anything, you #ade it u! as you went along. ou were gi%en a !art of the !icture, and, you did what you wanted. If it was a !icture about iceskating, you took a scene of so#ebody on ice skates, and you used your own gags, and #ade it all u!. &e had so#e fa#ous !eo!le who ca#e later on to 'utt and Jeff: 'ilt 0ross was one of the#, and 0regory 5a(a%a worked u! there a while, and #en fro# the #aga1ines like /anke%ille.
ADAMSON

-ow were these stories written,

HUEMER

&e all hel!ed. &e'd s!end an e%ening talking about it. And that's all it a#ounted to. .o#eti#es, if so#ebody had an idea, he would do it hi#self. 0enerally it was !icking a the#e. I can re#e#ber so#e of the titles. 4ne was about house!ainting, and we called it, Painter's Frolic. /ow, all you did was whate%er you wanted to, anything a !ainter did. Another one was called The Steeple Chase. *his was a roofto! thing. &e did !ictures about -awaii, we'd say, '5et's do a -awaiian !icture.' '6ine. I'll do the surf stuff, you do the cannibals,' or whate%er else. 6i%e ani#ators would do it, and we'd do it all in a week. .o#e artists were faster than others. .o#e were +uite fast. .o#e of the# were really slashy with their !en techni+ues.
ADAMSON

5ike &insor 'c(ay.

HUEMER

*he ne$t thing that really was a tre#endous i#!ro%e#ent was the o!a+ue cell, which *erry was a great de%otee of, when he did his Aeso!'s fables. *erry's cartoons were already a little better. At least, the characters were cute, And at the end of each !icture he'd ha%e a little funny #oral: Aeso! said, '......' *he reason he could #ake slightly better !ictures was because he had a great deal with ;>4, who had bought into his studio, which assured that each one of his !ictures would !lay all their houses, for a good !rice. .o *erry was the first one to really #ake #oney, in this business. 2at .ulli%an #ade #oney too, but in a different way: his !ictures were so !o!ular in :ngland, that they got all sorts of ob3ects and artifacts, handkerchiefs with 6eli$ the (at on the#, and this, si#ilar to what ha!!ened to )isney, defrayed the cost of his !ictures and ga%e hi# a nice !rofit. 6eli$ the (at was bigger in :ngland than it e%er was here.
ADAMSON

.ee#s to be an occu!ational ha1ard.

HUEMER

/o, not really, we weren't as bad as news!a!er !eo!le. Ani#ators actually were a %ery 3olly bunch. It used to be a lot of fun, working in the studios, a lot of horse!lay. A lot of kidding. /o ti#eclocks or anything like that. &e did a lot of things like sending new !eo!le for a bo$ of %anishing !oints, you know, that old gag. &hen a new guy would co#e in, they'd send hi# out for a fil# stretcher.
ADAMSON

5ike a day ca#!.

HUEMER

es, it was really fun. And we did our stints +uite co#fortably8 there was no stress. After all, 7?@ feet for about fi%e or si$ #en to do, that's not such a chore, es!ecially if you like to draw.
ADAMSON

-ow #any drawings would you do in an hour,

HUEMER

About twenty. 'aybe #ore. )e!ending. In those days, we did a lot of hold !ositions, and 3ust #o%ed #aybe an eye. &hen a character talked, all we'd ha%e was a ;e!eat and ;e%erse of a #outh #o%e#ent, and the rest of the figure didn't #o%e at all. It was traced on a cell. And then the #outh, 3ust this little bit, was on !a!er. *hen a balloon would co#e out, with lettering, and hold, and then e$!lode. As his #outh #ani!ulated, the balloon ca#e out, %ery +uickly, 3ust bloo! in about fi%e drawings, and held while you read the balloon. And then it whirled away or e$!loded, we had %arious ways of acco#!lishing that. (haracters did %iolent takes, like all the hair flying off. 4nce had all the features fly off in the air and co#e back and sla! back in 'utt's face. *his was a 'take.' &e e$!eri#ented with all these cra1y things.
ADAMSON

-ow did audiences react then,

HUEMER

*hey didn't get it. I swear, they didn't get it. 6or one thing, the ti#ing was off. And we didn't ha%e sound. .ound was the great

sa%iour of the ani#ated cartoon. I was with Barre till about 'A1. And then the !lace folded as they so often did in those days. ou ne%er could be sure of your 3ob. :%ery s!ring was a crisis. *his was contract ti#e, you know, with the releasing co#!any. I can re#e#ber being told, ')on't go far, we'll call you. )on't call us.' And ne%er being called. Barre was a %ery dedicated !erson, 3ust like &alt )isney was later on. -is idea was to !low back e%erything into the business and not worry about #aking a !rofit for hi#self. -e rightly figured that if the !ictures were good enough, why, they would !ay their way, and !eo!le would de#and the#, which is what )isney e%entually acco#!lished. &alt's !ictures cost hi# #uch #ore than he got for the#, at first8 e%en Three Little Pigs#ade not so #uch #oney as you #ay think. -e was such a nice little 6rench#an, who had a funny way of talking. I can still re#e#ber, he would say things like, ''utt co#es into de roo#, and throws the to#"a"toe at the cannery.' 'eaning the to#ato at the canary. (ute guy, too bad he lost his #arbles. 'utt and Jeff started as a co#ic stri! that had to do with horseracing. It would !redict winners of each day's race. *hat's how it got its fa#e. It didn't #atter what the gag was, in the last balloon, he'd say so#ething like, '&ell, I'# !utting #y #oney on Bluenose in the si$th race.' -e did %ery well !redicting these things. 6inally, he dro!!ed that, #aybe there ca#e a ti#e that he was losing too consistently. It beca#e a regular ty!e co#ic stri!, one of the %ery few stri!s of the ti#e. *his goes way back to the ti#e of '*he ellow >id,' and co#ic stri!s like that. I don't know e$actly how Barre got it, 'utt and Jeff. I do know that he #ust ha%e gotten it through Bud 6isher, the guy who drew it. 6isher financed it, but had nothing whate%er to do with the !ictures. &e saw hi# %ery seldo#. &e heard he was a #illionaire by then. :%en then, he was a fantastic business#an. -e 3ust had a knack for #aking #oney. *he stri! was enor#ously !o!ular, it was !robably the biggest stri! of its day. .o#ething like '2eanuts' is now.
ADAMSON

&hat did he think of the cartoons,

HUEMER

I don't know if he e%er saw the# or ga%e a da#n about the#. Just financed it, it was another %enture of his. But he did watch the releasing %ery carefully. I understand that he checked in on that, and he caught so#ebody who was robbing hi# and hauled hi# o%er the coals. -e was really a %ery shrewd guy. ou know, he had a #illion in the days when it was like ha%ing a billion now.
ADAMSON

Is that why 'utt and Jeff continued, e%en after the Barre cor!oration folded,
HUEMER

I think 6isher turned it o%er to so#ething called the Jefferson 6il# (or!oration, which was owned by 6o$. And 6o$ released the#. *here was always a 'utt and Jeff studio. Although it was run by different !eo!le. *he !lace was run by Barre8 when he got out, it was run by Bowers, who took it, and ran it for a while8 and then the Jefferson 6il# (or!oration #o%ed in, and they ran it till it +uit. And I ke!t working for the#. &e all ke!t working for the#.
ADAMSON

And how long did the Jefferson 6il# (o. run the thing,
HUEMER

4h, 3ust a few years. /othing lasted %ery long.

ADAMSON

-ow #uch #oney did these fil#s #ake, do you know,

HUEMER

/o, I don't. I don't think they knew either. *here was a ti#e when they were gi%en away with features. It was a !ackage deal. ou got a feature, you got a newsreel, you got so#e other strange thing, then you got a cartoon. 9ery often they didn't e%en run the cartoons. If the e$hibitor hated the cartoons, he didn't run the#. *hat's how interested they were.
ADAMSON

.o the cartoons ne%er really caught on, like the co#ic stri!.
HUEMER

&ell, 'utt and Jeff didn't. I think the 6ables caught on slightly. By 19A@, so#ewhere in there, I think that Bray was #aking a li%ing and 6eischer, who was with Bray, started his '4ut of the Inkwell' around 191?. *hese were released in so#ething called states' righting. 4r I could buy the rights to run that fil# in a certain state""say (alifornia. I ha%e the rights. I ha%e the fil#, now I can release it in any theater I want to. I !aid a certain a#ount of #oney for that, so that in the 7= states you were sure to at least get a certain a#ount of #oney, 3ust for gi%ing the# the rights to run it. *hen you didn't bother about it any#ore. *hat was their affair, to #ake !rints, to sell it, to send it a round, whate%er they wanted to do with it. It was kind of a !recarious business. And that was because there was no actual de#and for these things. /ot that !eo!le weren't thinking about i#!ro%ing the#. *here was a guy (arl 5ederer who thought of #aking a feature, way back in 1919. Cinderella. *his was going to be a beautiful thing""silent, of course. 'any had the idea. -e ne%er co#!leted it8 he died. *his sa#e fellow, (arl 5ederer, also had the idea of #ulti"!lane, or de!th in a cartoon. -e took three different s!eeds of a background, #o%ed the# in different gradations: half"inch in the front, +uarter of an inch farther back, and then the sky, tracing all three on one !iece of !a!er, going back and laboriously tracing so that when you used these traced !ieces of !a!er, you got this effect of the s!eed in front, and then less and less in the back. *here was an a#a1ing feeling of de!th. &e used it in 'utt and Jeff. &e used it o%er and o%er again8 he #ade two, one a country scene and one a city scene. And they were greatB But I don't think the audiences noticed the#. In general they were still faintly hostile to the cartoons.
ADAMSON

ou washed cells and used the# o%er again at this ti#e, didn't you,
HUEMER

es, we had to. -ad to cut corners. &e counted !encils, too. &e turned back the stub of a !encil to get a new one. It was a tight o!eration. And I don't know whether we e%er got %acationB I don't belie%e we e%er did. 4f course, we got a %acation at the end of contract ti#e, when we were out of work for a few weeks. &ithout

!ay. And we worked half a day .aturday. But then e%erybody did in those days. As an ani#ator, I #ade about a hundred and twenty dollars a week. *his was around 19A@, and it was a lot of #oneyB 'ore than a lot of #y relati%es #ade. And I understand that at -earst's International, guys like 6rank 'oser did fabulously well. *hey told #e that he #ade about 7@@ dollars a week 3ust ani#ating. But he was lightning fast and could slash it out. -earst had the International .tudio, where he did all his >ing 6eatures characters, like -a!!y -ooligan, and >at1en3a##ers, 'Jerry on the Job' all these things were done in ani#ated cartoon for#, as sort of subsidiary to the news!a!er stri!s.
ADAMSON

If it was such a tight o!eration, how could they afford to !ay you all so #uch,
HUEMER

*hat's a good +uestion, isn't it,

ADAMSON

It would see#, because (ha!lin was getting this unheard of 1@@ dollars a week in 1917. 6or fi%e years later, that would see# to be +uite a stunning fee for ani#ators.
HUEMER

ou know, that's so#ething I hadn't thought of in all these years: how they could do it. I know when I worked for 6leischer, in 19A?, I was #aking 1A? dollars a week. I guess #aybe they did #ake a go of it, barely. &hen I talk about counting !encils, I'# talking about 191?, when they were #aking the# for a round a thousand dollars a !icture.
ADAMSON

ou were getting less at this ti#e,

HUEMER

About C? dollars still a good salary. 4f course, I got se%en dollars a week as a tracer.
ADAMSON

;egardless of how, why do you think they did this, *hey didn't need to attract !eo!le. *hey didn't need to te#!t the# with a large salary.
HUEMER

*here weren't that #any ani#ators a%ailable, or that #any !eo!le who would be interested, or e%en knew about the business. ou'd be sur!rised how #any !eo!le didn't know about ani#ated cartoons, or !aid any attention to the#. A guy like 'oser a!!eared brilliant to the#. *hey would get crushes on !eo!le, a boss would, and say, '4h, this is the best ani#ator in the business, he's a wi1ardB (an't lose hi#B' .o they would !ay hi# a good salary. It actually ha!!ened to #e with the 6leischers.
ADAMSON

&hen did you start working for the 6leischers,

HUEMER

Around 19A?.
ADAMSON

Is this after 'utt and Jeff,

HUEMER

eah. I #ust ha%e had other 3obs, I was still an artist. I could !aint la#!shades.
ADAMSON

.o you started with the 6leischers about 'A?.

HUEMER

ou better #ake that 'AD.

ADAMSON

All right.
HUEMER

Eto ta!e recorderF ou heard hi#.

ADAMSON

ou started with the 6leischers about 'AD. And they were doing what,
HUEMER

4h, they were doing '4ut of the Inkwell.' >oko the (lown and 'a$ were the only characters. *hen we introduced other characters as !rotagonists. 4nce we took hi# to 'ars, and he had 'artians to contend with. *hose were actually !retty good cartoons, I still belie%e. *hey were definitely to #y #ind a ste! abo%e the 'utt and Jeffs. *hey had better stories.
ADAMSON

&ere the ani#ators still #aking u! their own gags, or did you ha%e a little bit #ore su!er%ision,
HUEMER

'yself, I would work with )a%e 6leischer. 'a$ was the guy who acted in the !ictures. )a%e was his brother and #ore or less the director of the o!eration. &e'd get together and talk about it. *he studio was so s#all that you could walk fro# desk to desk. /ot like the )isney studio, where it's full of roo#s, and where nobody e%er sees anybody or talks to anybody. ou could yell across the roo#, '-ey, )a%e. I want to talk to you. .u!!ose we do this.' And then we'd sit down and talk it o%er and laugh our heads off at our great gags, and then I would ani#ate it. But, of course, we had a basic the#e. )id you e%er see the one about the fly, *hat's the sur%i%ing one that you see around a lot. A fly is bothering 'a$8 well, take it fro# there, what can a fly do to disturb this, .o it was %ery rela$ed at 6leischer's.
ADAMSON

-ow big a !art did 'a$ !lay in these cartoons,

HUEMER

-e would o!en it, and in so#e trick way the clown would co#e out of the inkwell. 'a$ would take the cork off the inkwell, or other cle%erer ways, then >oko'd be loose, so he'd !lay against 'a$. -e'd s+uirt ink at hi#, whate%er the gags were. *hen in the end he

always went back into the inkwell, and 'a$ !ut the cork back on. A circular effect, to co#!lete the thing.
ADAMSON

&hat would you say was the #a3or reason for these cartoons being better than the others,
HUEMER

*hey had #ore interesting ideas, for one thing. *hey had li%e action, which is understandable right away. -ere is 'a$, a li%e !erson that they got to like after a while. 'a$ was not a great actor or co#edian, but at least, if you saw a few of the#, you got to know hi#, and you were sy#!athetic to his troubles. Another thing they did was so#ething they called ;otosco!e. *hey did that right fro# the %ery start. )a%e 6leischer would !ut on a clown suit, and they would !hotogra!h hi#8 and then they would take those !hotogra!hs and work o%er the#. A si#!le !rocess, but it ga%e astonishingly lifelike action. Incidentally, 'c(ay's action was %ery lifelike, too, in so#e of his early cartoons, which was a#a1ing, because he didn't use ;otosco!e. -e didn't base it on any li%e action. -e did a little thing about /e#o, which was %ery natural, really %ery beautiful ani#ation. It's sur!rising, because he did that before anybody else, and then in between that ti#e and when )isney ca#e along, there was a lot of this raunchy"looking stuff"" not good drawing or action. 'c(ay hit a high !eak at the %ery start, after which +uality went down and then ca#e u! again when )isney entered the !icture.
ADAMSON

&insor 'c(ay didn't use the inbetween syste#, did he, -e would go straight fro# one drawing to the ne$t.
HUEMER

*hat's right. &e found that out at a ban+uet we ga%e in 19A8. It was called the Ani#ators' Ban+uet. &e in%ited hi#, and he was the guest of honor.
ADAMSON

ou didn't do this e%ery year, did you,

HUEMER

/o, they wouldn't let us because after we were through the owner of the hotel says, ';ausB "" and don't co#e backB' *he last I saw the night of the brawl was so#ebody trying to kick off the chandelier. Anyway 'c(ay got u! and he had a few under his belt, as we all did""there were only about thirty of us, that's all there was in the business, in those days.
ADAMSON

'c(ay was a sober, ti#id sort of !erson, wasn't he,

HUEMER

&ell, he wasn't sober this night. -e got u! and he said, '/ow I'# going to !ut you fellows wise to so#ething that I'%e 3ust disco%ered,' he says, 'Instead of working straight ahead, which #a$es it hard to know where you're going in ani#ation, why don't you take drawing no.1, and then look ahead and #ake drawing no.?8 and now look, you can !ut drawings no. A, D, and 7 right in betweenB' -e was telling us about the inbetween syste#B 4f course, we res!ected hi# so #uch that nobody said, 'Aw, co#e off it, we'%e been doing it since 191?.' .o that's how we know that he #ust ha%e ani#ated straight ahead.
ADAMSON

.o you were doing the inbetween syste# fro# the ti#e you started,
HUEMER

4h, yeah. And we wouldn't let anybody touch our inbetweens. &e had no inbetweeners. It was !retty i#!ortant that we did all this oursel%es. It was too !recious to let so#e 3erk co#e in who #aybe didn't know how to draw, and #onkey with your stuff. As a #atter of fact, for the record, in all #odesty, I'# the first one to use inbetweeners. And it ca#e about when I was working for the 6leischers. *hey""!oor fellows""liked #y work so well that they said, '&hy don't you do #ore of it, I #ean by ha%ing so#eone do the inbetweens,' And #y first i#!ulse was '4h, yeah,' 'I will, like hellB' *hen, being basically a %ery la1y fellow, I thought, '&hy not,' .o, Art )a%is was assigned to #e.
ADAMSON

Is inbetweening in%ariably tedious,

HUEMER

&ell, it's not creati%e. ou don't dare be creati%e about inbetweening. *he e$tre#es create the action, the #ood, or whate%er you want to !ut o%er the !oint. )id the s!acing, too.
ADAMSON

&ere you satisfied with his work,

HUEMER

4h, fine. )idn't know the difference.

ADAMSON

&hat !ercentage of the drawings did he end u! doing,

HUEMER

About se%enty"fi%e. &e e$!osed our own ani#ation right on the !a!er. &e didn't e%en ha%e e$!osure sheets. &e drew downin the corner. .u!!ose you had so#ebody re!eating an action, we'd say, '; and ;'""re!eat and re%erse""'fi%e ti#es sto!!ing on 8,' then you go ahead. 4f course when sound ca#e along, you ha%e to ha%e e$!osure sheets. *his is an a#using incident that e$!lains how careful we were in drawing our things when we worked in !en and ink with 0ilott !en !oints""they had to be 0ilott's A9@'s, these fa#ous :nglish !en !oints. .o#e guy was ani#ating an e$!losion and he noodled u! this drawing of s#oke and things breaking, and e%erything8 and he #ade such a beautiful drawing of one of these new inbetweens that he held it for fi%e e$!osures. -e couldn't stand ha%ing the thing go through in one e$!osure, as it should ha%e. -is work of art #ight ha%e been #issedB I could tell you his na#e, but he's a friend of #ine. *he inking techni+ues were %ery interesting, so#e guys were %ery good. ou'd !ut shading on the leg that was behind the other one, if you wanted to. &e did the clown in the ri! and slash syste#, which is cutting !a!ers out to fit o%er each other like a !u11le. &e used to noodle u! closeu!s of the clown's head with shading all around the eyes, and e%erything. &e used a %ery hea%y outline in

those days8 %ery, %ery thick outline, all around the figure. *hat was because in the !rinting and de%elo!ing of the fil# if we didn't ha%e a hea%y outline, %ery often, it would bleed out. .o it wasn't 3ust an affectation, it was necessary to do it. *he 6leischers only used o!a+ue cells when the clown worked o%er a !hotogra!h. .ay he was on the desk. *hen he would be""as we do today""on an o!a+ue cell. 4f course, he was 3ust black and white8 white"faced, black suit. )idn't use any grays that I can re#e#ber. ;otosco!e was how he co#bined the cartoon with li%e action. 6irst, he had a ca#era abo%e and below a 0lass !late, with !egs8 a !ro3ection #achine was below that shooting u!, and a ca#era was shooting down. 6irst he #ade a #atte of the clown. *his was used for !utting cartoon with li%e action, !utting the# on the sa#e fil#. *hey were a !retty in%enti%e bunch, the 6leischers. *he bouncing ball thing was in%ented by the#, the idea of bouncing a ball on words. *hey got an old"fashioned washing #achine, and lettered the lines of the song, white letters on black, and then tacked it on this round dru#. *hen they co%ered the whole thing black, and when they turned the dru# a line would co#e into the o!ening of a slit and go down, and then the ne$t line would co#e. *hen, they had a black !ointer with a white dot on the end, so that when the line #o%ed in""you ne%er saw where it ca#e fro#""then the !ointer would go, dee"dee"dee"dee"dee"dee. ou didn't see the !ointer because it was black against black. ou saw the white ball: it looked as though the though the white ball was 3u#!ing fro# word to word.
ADAMSON

*his wasn't an ani#ated white ball,

HUEMER

/o, noB It was done this way, with a !ointer. 6il#ed in li%e actionB *he !ointer doesn't !hotogra!h because it's black. *hey ne%er let the !ointer go in front of the letters. It's going abo%e the letters. *hey'd knock it off in no ti#e at all. *he first one they #ade was called '4h, 'abel,' and I ani#ated it. It was a song slightly !o!ular at the ti#e: '/eath your window I a# waiting, oh, 'abelB' ""so#ething to that effect. I would ani#ate the lines in, and I had a little figure 3u#!ing to accent: '/eath"your"win"dow"I"a#"waiting'"" and she'd 3u#! back as the ne$t line ca#e in"" '4h...' and ride

along8 the thing rode along in !anora#a. And we did strange things. &e'd turn words into funny ob3ects and we'd e$!lode words. *hey'd drift down, grow, shrink, other characters would co#e in and chase the# off. I didn't do the bouncing ball that was always the chorus. I 3ust did the %erse. *he %erse was always so#e figure ani#ated that was a!!ro!riate, like 'In the shade of the old a!!le tree' and the word would ani#ate u! into a tree. *hey were white on black, but they were negati%e. &e'd ha%e to #ake a black face so that when it was re%ersed it would be a white face. '*hen the letters, being black would co#e out white. It was so successful that when they ran Goh, 'abel' at the (ircle *heater, in (olu#bus (ircle, /ew ork, it brought down the house, it sto!!ed the show. *hey a!!lauded and sta#!ed and whistled into the following !icture, which they finally sto!!ed, and took off, and !ut back the '4h, 'abel' cartoon again. *hey ran it again to the delight of the audience. I always say that was an indication of the audience. I always say that was an indication of what sound would so#eday do for the ani#ated cartoon, because it was a sound idea. *he use of sound co#bined with action e%en though the audience su!!lied the sound, ne%ertheless, it !artook of that feeling. *hey sang their little hearts out. It was %ery successful. &ith 'utt and Jeff we did so#ething called '.ound your A' in which 'utt and Jeff a!!eared on the screen, and see#ed to talk to 'a$ 'anny, the dru##er of the .trand *heater, whose idea it was. -e stood u! in a s!ot light in the orchestra, and he'd say, '&ell, 'utt, how are things today,' And then the character would see# to look down at hi#, and a balloon would co#e u! and say, '6ine.' *hey !layed back and forth, and this, again, was, in a sense foreshadowing what sound would do so#eday. It was %ery, %ery successful. *his was the #ost successful 'utt and Jeff.
ADAMSON

*his was so#ething like what 'c(ay did with '0ertie the )inosaur,' now, wasn't it,
HUEMER

;ight.
ADAMSON

&as there great si#ilarity between your work and other ani#ators' work, 4r was the difference i#!erce!tible enough, since they were using the sa#e techni+ues,
HUEMER

&ithin a !icture, say there were three ani#ators doing it, you would ha%e to look %ery closely to tell the difference in ani#ators' drawings. But you could tell, instantly, whether it was a *errytoon, or a 6leischer, or a 'utt and Jeff, or a 6eli$ the (at. At least I could, I i#agine audiences could too, if they cared. *hey were sta#!ed, they were indi%idual. Always the sa#e way of doing it.
ADAMSON

.o that your work took on a different look when you changed studios.
HUEMER

*hat's right. :%en though you retained a little8 you couldn't hel! doing things certain ways. But audiences were e%er aware of anything like that. :%en to us there wasn't #uch. 4f course, I knew #y own work, I could tell #ine in a #inute. I saw an old 'utt and Jeff cartoon that I'd worked on, and I could tell #y own work. *his was one that was done when we had a little outfit called *he Associated Ani#ators, and all we would need would be the inkers and the !ainters of the cells""by this ti#e #ost cartoons were done in the o!a+ue syste#. &e were the first coo!erati%e in the ani#ation business. It was #yself, Burt 0illette, Ben -arrison, 'anny 0ould""and we decided to be both the owners and ani#ators8 we wouldn't need a staff8 we would sa%e all that #oney. 6inally we went to 'utt and Jeff or rather Bud 6isher's attorney and got the rights to do the 'utt and Jeffs again. *hey had la!sed for a while. &e did a nu#ber of these, and I saw one 3ust the other day: it wasn't too bad. Incidentally, we couldn't #ake any #oney. It wasn't a successful o!eration. Besides, I think 'utt and Jeff was fading away, and Bud 6isher withdrew his financial su!!ort, and that ended it. *hat was the end of 'utt and Jeff.
ADAMSON

As ani#ation ad%ances, fro# about 191@ into the thirties, there was less and less a!!earance of hu#an figures, and ani#als began to take o%er.

HUEMER

&ell, ani#als were always %ery !o!ular, because when you do so#ething with an ani#al, it's unconscious satire. And it see#ed to be #ore sy#!athetic. :%en )isney went to ani#als. -e had this little girl, re#e#ber the Alice cartoons. And, of course, *erry had 6ar#er Alfalfa character in his, but all the rest was ani#als. Ani#als were %ery successful, they always were.
ADAMSON

6ar#er Alfalfa was #ore or less 3ust a stooge for a lot of cats and #ice, as I re#e#ber.
HUEMER

*hat's right. Alice was sort of a stooge too. *hen the ani#ation business was looking %ery shaky to #e, and I decided to get out of it. I drew a co#ic stri! called '0ood"*i#e 0uy' for the 'etro!olitan /ews !a!er ser%ice, which ran for about8 a year or two. It was a !eo!le"ty!e stri!. *he guy who did ':lla (inders' Bill (onsel#an wrote it, and I drew it. &ell that folded too. *hen I went back to the 6leischers. I was with the# in 19A9 when the crash occurred, I can re#e#ber it, crashing.
ADAMSON

)id this affect you %ery seriously,

HUEMER

/ot !ersonally, no. I didn't own any stock. I didn't understand it. &ho did, *he ani#ation industry looked awfully bad, at that ti#e. )isney, of course, had already entered the field, and had done so#e oswalds. *hey were far su!erior to anything any body had done, in #y esti#ation. And we, #e, -arrison and 0ould, used to go seek the# out, find out where they were running and study the#. And, bad as they look today""Eand I'%e seen the# recently, and they are !retty badF""they were tre#endously su!erior to our thing. *hat was our o!inion as crafts#en of the business. I was with 6leischer again when sound broke on the scene8 and the '.keleton )ance' took /ew ork by stor#, and naturally e%erything went to sound.

ADAMSON

And you went to (olu#bia.

HUEMER

*hat's right, we did .cra!!y and *oby the 2u!. *hat's the first thing we did, *oby the 2u!. .ort of a nondescri!t little character. A black little beast, that walked on its hind legs, and had a big #o! of black hair. A weird dog"like thing with long ears.
ADAMSON

&as he sy#!athetic, &ho create hi#,

HUEMER

.id 'arcus created hi#. -e and I ca#e out to start the series. &e left 6leischers together. 'int1 #o%ed to (alifornia, and we went with hi#, and started *oby the 2u!. 'int1 also brought out -arrison and 0ould to continue >ra1y >at, which they had been doing. *hey ran concurrently. *he 6leischers naturally 3oined the gold rush after )isney's stunning success with his first sound cartoons. *heir first was a 2o!eye short cartoon with a /oah's ark the#e. I'# under the i#!ression that so#e of the dialogue was not !rescored. *heir own original #ethod of synchroni1ing cartoon and sound was the in%ention of 0eorge ;ufle, who was one of their ani#ators. It consisted of !hotogra!hing a bouncing ball, attached to the botto# of a baton which occu!ied the s!ace at the left side of the fil# reser%ed nor#ally for the sound track. In effect, this acted as a #etrono#e and could be !hotogra!hed to !ro%ide any desired beat, #ore !articularly, the ones established and deter#ined in ad%ance by the ani#ation itself. As the recording session, the #usical director had only to watch the baton going u! and down in the !ree#!ted sound track s!ace and guide his orchestra accordingly. 'usicians and %ocalists also carefully watched the cartoon to add their sound effects and dialogues. It was the answer to !re%ious and ha!ha1ard #ethods of synchroni1ation such as ha%ing a flower which had nothing whate%er to do with the action wag back and 6orth in the corner of the scene for the #usical director to watch.

As far as I know the 2o!eyes hit it off %ery well, and after the# ca#e Betty Boo!, and a re%i%al of >oko in the .ong (artune setting""all with sound, of course. But I was long gone fro# the 6leischers by then. I s!ent three years with the (harles 'int1 outfit and established #yself with the studio of #y choice"")isney's. A!ro!os of the great !o!ularity of the 2o!eye cartoons, there's a story that concerns &alt )isney while he was on one of his tri!s to .outh A#erica. I wasn't on the tri!. Joe 0rant and I had been left behind to finish u! Dumbo. Anyway it was at so#e big social function the locals were throwing to honor their fa#ous %isitor. 'ost of the crowd were :nglish. *he ty!ical kind. All e%ening long as &alt danced, so#e guy would gi%e the fa#ous wink, in !assing hi# on the dance floor and nod knowingly. *hen he would gi%e the 2o!eye 'Bee! Bee!' and whirl away with his !artner, satisfied no doubt that he knew he had shown )isney that he was aware of a thing or two about what was what in cartoons. It's hard to bla#e the !oor guys, since actually, the great #a3ority of !eo!le of the world !robably thought that )isney was the only one who #ade ani#ated cartoons. *echnical ite#: &hen I ca#e to the 'utt and Jeff studio in 191= they were already using the *o! 2eg syste# of registry. Before that they had used %arious different ways of kee!ing the drawings in register. 4ne way was to ha%e a nu#ber of !inholes on each sheet of ani#ation !a!er at the to!. *hese coincided e$actly with relati%e holes in the ani#ation board. *he ani#ator !ut the !ins, ordinary straight !ins, through the !a!er and into the holes and also under the ca#era. It worked until the !eg syste# ca#e along. Another strange de%iation fro# co##on !rocedure was that 2aul *erry and also his brother John *erry did all their ani#ation on trans!arent tissue !a!er. :%erybody else, as far as I know used the so"called 5ight Boards and regular !a!er. After all, how can you fli! tissue !a!er, 5et #e tell you the story that I'%e told #any ti#es, about what !eo!le thought of the business at first. &hen we o!ened our second 'utt and Jeff studio in 6ordha#, we were in the 6ordha# Arcade. And down below on the street le%el, there was this tailor, who had a s#all sho! that we ani#ators !atroni1ed. -e was 3ust burning u! with curiosity about what we fellows were doing u!stairs. &e were in this loft that was #eant for light

#anufacturing, and he couldn't figure it out. '&hat are you boys doing u! there,' he !ersisted. And we e$!lained, '&e're #aking ani#ated !ictures,' or at least we tried to e$!lain...and finally I said one day, '&ell, co#e on u!, 'r. 2incus, or whate%er his na#e was. I'll show you what we're doing.' And one day sure enough, he a!!eared at the door, hat in hand. I took hi# in tow and lead hi# around, fro# board to board. I fli!!ed drawings. I showed hi# the instructions, how we did it...as #uch as you can e$!lain it. :%en today you can't do it #uch different, you know, it's still #uch the sa#e !rinci!le. &ell, I showed hi# e%erything, and he 3ust stood there, shifting fro# foot to foot...occasionally he'd go, '*sk, tsk, tsk,' or 'h###.' /e%er a word. I thought #aybe he wasn't listening. 6inally, it was all done, I said, '&ell, what do you think, 'r. 2incus,' And he said, '*ell #e...fro# this, you are #aking a li%ing,' And that would be a good title for a book about this !eriod, '6ro# *his ou Are 'aking a 5i%ing.' It was all co#!letely inco#!rehensible to hi#. .a#e as the word 'ani#ation.' It didn't #ean anything at all to !eo!le. As far as so#e !eo!le knew, it #eant #ating ani#als.
ADAMSON

0i%e us an idea what the studio looked like.

HUEMER

*he Barre studio was in an enor#ous bare loft, about a hundred feet by about se%enty"fi%e...without any breaks...well, yes, at one end there was a wall for an office. *he studio !art had these long benches, with roo# for three or four light boards on each side, facing each other.
ADAMSON

5ight boards...
HUEMER

&ell, that's what we called the ani#ation boards. *here was a long shelf in the #iddle, on which you could !ut your drawings, and which se!arated you fro# the guy on the other side""to who# you could talk through these shel%es. And there were about twel%e of these units, standing right in the #iddle of the roo#. *wel%e of these benches or tables, containing about, oh, eight !laces for ani#ators""which was far #ore than were needed when Barre set

the !lace u!. -e ne%er filled it. At no ti#e was it e%er co#!letely filled. &e only occu!ied, well, #aybe, four rows of these boards for tracers and ani#ators. *hen there was a ca#era fro# Barre which occu!ied another roo# to the side. *he loft was %ery bleak and it was %ery cold in the winter. *he heating was totally inade+uate. &e often had to go ho#e, because our fingers got stiff fro# cold. *hat was when the oil heaters no longer hel!ed. &e had these little oil heaters that stood around on the floor. *hey don't e$ist any#ore, but we had the# in those days before little electric heaters.
ADAMSON

5ike s#udge !ots,

HUEMER

&ell, e$ce!t that they didn't s#udge. *here was a little tank on the botto#, with a round cylinder, where the heat ca#e fro#""no, they were clean enough. I guess it was kerosene oil they burned or so#ething that didn't #ake a s#udge. *he whole studio was %ery bare looking.
ADAMSON

/o drawings hanging on the walls, or anything,

HUEMER

4h, no refine#ents, no, indeed. /o curtains or car!ets. &e had bare board flooring.
ADAMSON

/o, I #ean like sketches.

HUEMER

*hey couldn't afford it. /o.

ADAMSON

&hat did you do with your old drawings after you had #ade your little fil#s,
HUEMER

*hey were always thrown away.

ADAMSON

Just thrown away...

HUEMER

4h, sure. ou couldn't draw on the other side of the !a!er, could you,
ADAMSON

:%en though you did sa%e the cells...

HUEMER

As I say, we sa%ed the# and washed the#. *hat was a regular 3ob for so#ebody, to be continually washing cells. A 'rs. 'alloy did that. *hat wasn't too easy to do either. *he ink stuck to the cells. &e had to use a##onia and one thing and another. /o, the older studios were !retty bare, 3ust utilitarian.
ADAMSON

-ow did the 6leischers look,

HUEMER

.a#e idea. 4nly &alt )isney definitely took !ride in the a!!earance of his studio. 'ade beautiful desks, nice furniture, landsca!ed the grounds, had full"ti#e gardeners all o%er the !lace. &ell, he had the #oney. &e didn't ha%e the #oney for that. /ot In those !ioneer days.
ADAMSON

&ell, it's also a #atter of care. 4ut of one roo# you ha%e se%eral hundred drawings co#e out e%ery day. 9ery often, in the !laces I'%e seen, they'll take a cell and a background, and o%er, lay the# o%er, and then 3ust !ut the# u! on the wall.
HUEMER

/o, we ne%er did that.

ADAMSON

/e%er bothered with that.

HUEMER

&ell, as a #atter of fact, they weren't that good.

ADAMSON

I see.
HUEMER

*hey Ethe 6leischersF started with 2o!eye 3ust as soon as sound beca#e obligatory.
ADAMSON

)o you know why they !icked hi# u!,

HUEMER

sure, It was a good !ro!erty because 2o!eye was the #ost !o!ular co#ic stri! at that ti#e.
ADAMSON

5ike 'utt and Jeff.

HUEMER

eah, sure. It was a %ery big feature Enews!a!er that isF. It was +uite a !lu# to ha%e. If you should ha!!en to see one of the old 2o!eyes you #ay notice that there is ne%er a +uiet #o#ent""in the dialogue, that is. )ialogue that is crucial to the story will be worked out and synched to action. But in between there is a constant strea# of #uttering, often unintelligible. But it was %ery effecti%e, a de%ice to kee! the thing ali%e. es, sound did wonders for the ani#ated cartoon. *here'd be none without sound, I don't think. (ertainly %ery little !ublic acce!tance.
ADAMSON

>illed off the two"reel co#edy, at the sa#e ti#e.

HUEMER

eah, and a good thing.

ADAMSON

&hy,
HUEMER

I don't know. I didn't care for the#.

ADAMSON

&hen did you start noticing the#,

HUEMER

I'# sure it was around 1917. (ha!lin did so#ething called His New Job. *his was the first one of his !ictures that I e%er saw. It 3ust flattened #e. It 3ust killed #e. And e%erybody else too. .uddenly e%erybody was talking (ha!lin.
ADAMSON

*his is the one #o%ing the !iano.

HUEMER

I don't know what, e%en what it was about.

ADAMSON

ou re#e#ber the titleB

HUEMER

es, that was the title: His New Job.

ADAMSON

&ould you say this had any effect on what you were doing,
HUEMER

ou #ean, did we i#itate (ha!lin,

ADAMSON

/ot i#itate e$actly.

HUEMER

*he only one who was e%er really influenced by (ha!lin was &alt. -e 3ust couldn't get hi# out of his syste#, you know. -e thought of 'ickey 'ouse actually as a little (ha!lin. /ot that he walked like hi# or looked like hi#, but &alt ke!t the feeling of this little droll kind of !athetic little character, who was always being !icked on. But cle%erly co#ing out on to! anyway. 4ther !eo!le influenced &alt, too, )ouglas 6airbanks, and other outstanding !erfor#ers. &alt had a wonderful gift of ada!ting things that were good and changing the# so that you couldn't recogni1e the#. Actually #aking the# better. As far back as 191=, when I ca#e to the 'utt and Jeff studio, they were trying to i#!ro%e their ani#ation. &hen I got there, they were all talking about a bit of ani#ation done by a cha! na#ed ;igby, which has two goats, butting each other or so#ething. By today's standards it's less than nothing, but this was considered so great, when I ca#e there. ;igby was the studio hero for a few weeks. *his was 191=. And then around 1918, Albert -urter, who did such great work at )isney's later on, had to draw an A#erican flag8 and he looked out the window, saw a flag, and, wonder of wonders, he actually co!ied the #o%e#ent""studied it and co!ied it. .o#ething which nobody had done before. If you had done a flag before, you would take three drawings and ha%e it #erely sort of %ibrate. But he analy1ed the action, and its folds, etcetera. -e was such a #agnificent artistB And when this scene ca#e out, we 3ust thought, '*his is the endB *he li%ing endB *his is the greatestB' In other words we weren't blind to i#!ro%e#ent. As a #atter of fact, another thing done at this ti#e, which &alt also did later, was what Barre""or Bowers, one or the other""instituted, art classes. &e would co#e back at night to study the hu#an for#. .elf" i#!ro%e#ent, so that we drew better. Another )isney !rece!t. *he studio would hire a #odel to co#e to !ose for us. And thereby hangs a tale. &e had this nude #odel !osing for us one night, and 9et Anderson who used to draw for Puck and Li e Ethey called hi# 9et because he was a %eteran of the .!anish"A#erican &arF used to kee! his tobacco loose in his !ocket, and fill his !i!e by di!!ing it in the !ocket full of tobacco. &e were all drawing one night this nude #odel when, all of a sudden, she, gi%ing no e$cla#ation, stalked off the !latfor# and left the roo#. &e looked at each other wondering, '&hat's the #atter,' .o one of us ran after her asking, '&hat's wrong,' And she said, '*hat #anB...with the red face. &hy is he leering so e%illy,' /ow this was his habitual e$!ression when

he concentrated. 9et always s#iled anyway. But she thought he was leering, en3oying her nakedness. But we did ha%e art classes, and we did, as I say, study the !en techni+ues of -einrich >ley and other !eo!le. &e thought 4!!er of -a!!y -ooligan fa#e was a fine draughts#an. 0ibson was the greatest !en and ink #an, of course. &ho could i#itate hi#,
ADAMSON

ou didn't stay at 6leischers' long after sound ca#e in.

HUEMER

&ell, I was in and out of 6leischers' se%eral ti#es. I left to go into the Associated Ani#ators""a co#!any I hel!ed for#. *hen I ca#e back again. *hen I left to no #y co#ic stri!. *hen I ca#e back once #ore. And then I left to go with (harlie 'int1. *he last ti#e I left 'a$ said, 'All right now, this is the last ti#e you're gonna lea%eB' -e didn't really #ean it. -e was a lo%ely guy. I lo%ed 'a$. -e said, '*hat's a fine thing, lea%ing #e...that's the last ti#e you're gonna do it to #e.' Ben .har!steen had been touting #e to &alt )isney. E*here was only about ten or twel%e of us ani#ators in the world, you know, and I was one of the#.F and when &alt )isney ca#e to /ew ork on a business tri! he looked #e u! with the idea of getting #e to work for hi#. I in%ited hi# to dinner. -e didn't know /ew ork, and I took hi# to a !lace called *he (hili 9illa, which e%en to this day I think ser%es the finest 'e$ican food I'%e e%er eaten. .i#!ly #agnificent. I took &alt and his wife 5ily there to talk things o%er. It was understood right away that I would consider working for hi#, e%en before we went to dinner. But I wasn't sure. -e said, ' es, let's talk anyway.' .o we went to (hili 9illa on 7?th .treet. And all through the #eal I don't think &alt addressed fi%e words to #e. -e sat and brooded and ate this hea%enly food, and ne%er said anything about how great it was, or #uch of anything else. .o I s!oke #ostly to his wife. And I thought, '*his is certainly a strange guy. I #ean nobody has e%er done this to #e in #y life.' &ell, later I found out that he was in %ery dee! trouble, and was brooding. -e had so#e serious set" back. .o#ething about the business end of it, I think. *hat's why he'd co#e to /ew ork. .o that was #y strange introduction to &alt )isney. I finally agreed to work for hi#, but a day later I got a better offer fro# 'int1 and decided to take that. &hen I called &alt u! and told hi#, there was silence for a while. 6inally he said, '&ell,

okay, but you'll be %ery sorry.' And I was. Because I should ha%e gone with hi# right then and there. I would ha%e had a better ti#e, and I'd ha%e en3oyed working in the business with a real genius. Although I #ust say the #oney he offered wasn't nearly co#!arable to what 'int1 was going to !ay #e.
ADAMSON

;eally, &hy was that,

HUEMER

&ell, I guess 'int1 thought I was that good. -e offered #e a !ercentage cut besides.
ADAMSON

&hen was this first #eeting with &alt,

HUEMER

19D@. .o, then I went to 'int1. And stayed until 19DD. &hen 'int1 tried to cut our salaries during the de!ression we went on strike. And so I left 'int1. Instead of going on strike though, I went o%er to )isney's at last. I had regretted turning hi# down as he had !redicted.
ADAMSON

But was there that #uch difference in salary,

HUEMER

*here was +uite a co#e"down in salary""al#ost half. &alt was not one for !aying big salaries at that ti#e
ADAMSON

'int1 was,
HUEMER

&ell, 'int1 was si#!ly because I had the re!utation of being one of the #en he badly needed to start a new series. -e under!aid the rest of the staff besides.
ADAMSON

&hat was it like, working for 'int1,

HUEMER

4h, fine. In a way you did what you !leased. -e didn't know what was going on. -e didn't care. -e wasn't really interested #uch in the !ictures. -e was 3ust a !ro#oter, he bankrolled it. ou couldn't e%er do anything without a release and his big 3ob was to wrangle that with (olu#bia and ;>4.
ADAMSON

4h, I see.
HUEMER

'int1 was a business#an. -e had nothing to do with the creation of it. -e left it u! to #e and .id 'arcus. 6or *oby and .era!!y and >ra1y >at was done by 0ould and -arrison. *hey handled it to suit the#sel%es. .id 'arcus and I directed and did the stories. But we also had to ani#ate at the sa#e ti#e. 4nce you'd laid the !icture out, and ti#ed it, why, there wasn't #uch else but to ani#ate it. &e were still our best ani#ators, certainly better than any neo!hytes we could hire. -arrison and 0ould did the sa#e. *hey ani#ated #ost of their >ra1y >ats.
ADAMSON

)id you ha%e inbetweeners now,

HUEMER

es, we did. &e had e%erything.

ADAMSON

And inkers and !ainters,

HUEMER

e!. &e used the o!a+ue cell syste# which had been uni%ersal for a long ti#e now.
ADAMSON

And !re"recorded sound,

HUEMER

es.
ADAMSON

.o, you're !retty so!histicated by this ti#e.

HUEMER

es, we were co#!arable to all the other studios. After I left 'int1, they went on for #any years doing >ra1t >at #ostly. 'y lea%ing didn't ruin the#.
ADAMSON

&hat did you think of what you turned out at this ti#e,
HUEMER

/ot #uch. .o#e of the# were all right. But they didn't co#!are to )isney's cartoon. 5et's !ut it that way.
ADAMSON

&ell, without taking )isney into account: did you find the# going o%er better than what you'd done before,
HUEMER

I'# afraid they didn't do #uch better at all. /ot in #y o!inion. *hey weren't in color. &alt did the first color cartoon: '6lowers and *rees.' &hen I ca#e to )isney's, they had already finished se%eral cartoons. *hey had done '6lowers and *rees,' which was the first '.illy .y#!hony' and they were 3ust finishing Three Little Pigs, which I didn't work on. &hich, as you know, was a s#asheroo.
ADAMSON

)id .cra!!y #ake a !rofit for the studio,

HUEMER

I couldn't tell you that. It's #y i#!ression though that cartoons again were %icti#s of block booking. *hey ga%e the cartoons away with their features. 4ne of those things.

ADAMSON

.o the audiences weren't that concerned about the !roduct.

HUEMER

/ot #uch I guess. It wasn't like )isney, where they de#anded 'ickey 'ouses""re#e#ber the slogan, '&hat"" /o 'ickey 'ouseB' *here was nothing like that with .cra!!y or >ra1y >at. *he !eo!le laughed a little. But not like at )isney's !ictures, which were belly" laughs. /o, )isney brought careful !lanning, in e%ery !hase of the #aking of an ani#ated cartoon. (areful !lanning and #eticulous attention to detail, and ideas, and gags, gags, gagsB I #ean he was his own best gag #an. -ad the best gag #ind I e%er ran across.

1.2. TAPE NUMBER I: Side T!", (July #1, 1968

HUEMER

4ne whole incident started when I drew great big teeth on >oko, so#ething the 6leischers ne%er had done u! to that ti#e. &ell, )a%e started kidding #e about it, baring his teeth at #e e%ery ti#e I looked at hi#. 4r he would draw an enor#ous tooth on #y drawing !a!er when #y back was turned. *hen finally one night on #y way ho#e, I !ut #y hand into #y !ocket and fished out a handful of teeth, -u#an ones. -e'd gotten the# fro# a dentist friend of his. I forget what #y ne$t #o%e was""!robably sli!!ing one or two into his dessert at lunch, or so#e other disgusting thing. And then ca#e the #orning when I raised #y drawing board to switch on the light and #y hand touched so#ething sli#y. *here dra!ed o%er the light bulb was the lower half of a cow's 3aw, re!lete with great big yellow teeth and shreds of unhealthy"looking flesh. /aturally I couldn't let hi# +uit while he was ahead. .o I sneaked down to the street when he wasn't looking and !laced the cada%er on the #otor of his 6ord. I was only sorry I wasn't there when he started to s#ell roast beef on his way ho#e. *hat kind of ended the whole rib. /either of us could find a to!!er after that. Although thirty years later, when I #et )a%e accidentally in a theatre lobby, the first thing he did was to #ake big teeth at #e. )id I tell you the trick with the stuffed dates, *here was always a good deal of horse!lay in those !rehistoric ani#ation studios. *here

was this guy who was an irritating kind of character. -e was +uite hard of hearing, and wore the first hearing aid I had e%er seen u! to that ti#e, but I guess he was 3ust naturally unlo%able. A#ong other odd things Ehe was also a !oetF was his de%otion to health foods. -e brought all sorts of uncon%entional foodstuffs for lunch. -e was !articularly addicted to stuffed dates, that is, dates stuffed with cho!!ed nuts and raisins and things. 4ne day while he was out of the roo#, we took his stuffed dates, re#o%ed the filling, and substituted a #i$ture of our own"#ostly tobacco. *hen we all waited at lunchti#e for the big horselaugh would you belie%e it, -e !icked the# u! and ate the# allB &ithout e%en #aking a faceB &ere we frustrated. *he only conclusion I could co#e to was that he was hard of tasting as well as hearing. At the 'utt and Jeff studio, 0eorge 6oster was our cha#!ion ribber. -is fa%orite trick was to get hold of so#e newco#er to the studio who was all eager to learn the business, and 0I9: hi# the business. 0eorge was the oldest of the ani#ators""thirty"fi%e, I think, but that was old for our new industry. -e had gray hair and this #ock !ontifical #anner of s!eaking. -e would sell the !oor guy on the idea of so#ething called 'still life ani#ation.' *he i#!ortance of it, that you had to learn it before you could ani#ate. -e in%ented all sorts of strange words and gi##icks. In regular art in those days, one first concentrated on still life before tackling the hu#an figure. &ell, this was the sa#e basis for learning how to ani#ate8 you had to first study still life ani#ation and that was his gag. <ntil the kid finally caught on to it. I told you about how Bowers bought an interest in the business. I think he !ut in about three thousand dollars, which ga%e hi# a !art ownershi!. Bowers was a %ery talented #an. -e didn't ha%e to be a renegade, which he was. -e clai#ed to be so#e kind of an e$" circus !erfor#er. And always told us tall tales, about, walking across tightro!es high o%er a street. -e said with an oil sto%e in each hand, the kind we used in the studio. Both burning, yet. And once that he had been run o%er by a wagon, in the desert. But the sand was so soft that it left his i#!ression in the ground and didn't hurt hi# at allB I #ean that's the kind of guy he was. &ith it all, he was a %ery brilliant !olitical cartoonistHworked for theNewark News. -e ca#e to )isney's in the 19D@'s with a fil# he'd #ade, trying to get &alt's backing. Incidentally, it was an idea he had stolen fro# Barre. If you look at an old Barre cartoon you'll see this

gag of a chicken laying eggs and little auto#obiles hatching out, all because it was scared by an auto#obile or so#ething. Bower's crib of Barre's idea was done, howe%er, in li%e action""sto! #otion. And it was really +uite good.
ADAMSON

&ho #ade the auto#obiles,

HUEMER

-e did all of it, I i#agine he !ut the whole thing together. &here it is now, I don't know. But anyway when &alt asked #e about hi#. I told hi# what he'd done to !oor old Barre, and what an all"around unreliable sort of a guy he was. .o &alt said, '*hank you,' and that washed out the whole deal. And that was #y re%engeB
ADAMSON

-ow old was he,

HUEMER

*hat's the strange thing. /obody knowsB -e was one of those #en who could be any age. -e was wrinkled and yet he wasn't, and he was %ital, and actually you couldn't tell. *his was one of the big !u11les about hi#. -ow old was Bowers,""used to be one of the gags. /obody e%er found out. And he wouldn't tell anybody. It's #y i#!ression though that he wasn't %ery young. At that ti#e he #ust ha%e been say in his forties""which was old for the business then because we were #ostly in our twenties. )id I tell you about how he conned so#ebody out of so#e #oney, and when the sucker ca#e to collect it, and he started arguing with Bowers. And the guy !icked u! a blotter on which there was an A#erican flag, and in his anger threw it down on the ground, not knowing what he was doing, and Bowers yelled, '.to!B ou know what you'%e done, ou ought to be asha#ed of yourself. *he A#erican flagB ou'%e desecrated 4ld 0lory' It was during the war, you know, and foreigners were looked on with sus!icion. Anyway, Bowers co#!letely cowed hi# and he left. But that's the kind of a guy Bowers was. -is wife worked at )isney studios for a long ti#e. A lo%ely +uiet wo#an. .he #ay still be around and in the business so#ewhere. A sort of #ousy wo#an. /ot the kind you'd e%er think would #arry such a raffish character.

ADAMSON

&as she still #arried to hi# at the ti#e,

HUEMER

I don't know. -e died. I think, in the late D@'s. .he was one of the !ainters, I think. 5et #e !oint out that the ani#ated business is not like being a !olice#an, or a doctor, or going around ha%ing ad%entures. ou're 3ust sitting at a board""sitting tight. And ani#ating all day fro# nine to fi%e. 6i%e days a week, then going ho#e and co#ing back to#orrow to do it again. All these little things tell you are 3ust incidental. *he horse!lay and these little ribbings are 3ust incidental stuff.
ADAMSON

)idn't you feel at all restricted, working in that sort of fra#ework, nine to fi%e, fi%e days a week,
HUEMER

/o. ou were co#!letely absorbed in what you were doing. &e all lo%ed to do it. Ani#ating is fun. It still is. /ot for #e though, I dislike it %ery #uch now. It see#s %ery tedious now, #edie%al. But when you're young, it's great. Besides it's %ery in%enti%e, you were your own story #an, and your own ca#era#an in the sense that you e$!osed your scene yourself. ou did %ery #uch what you felt like.
ADAMSON

our own layout #an,

HUEMER

4h, by all #eans. &hat there was, was %ery si#!le. .ure, you were e%erything. :%en your own dialogue #an. *he little balloons that the characters s!oke in would be what you !ut in the#. ou sat down and #ade it all u! fro# the whole cloth. .o that was %ery absorbing. And %ery satisfying too. If it ca#e out all right, that is.
ADAMSON

ou didn't feel that being called u!on to be creati%e was an outrage or an i#!osition,

HUEMER

-eck, no, you welco#ed it. *hat's what you were there for. *hat's why you were in the business. .a#e as when I went into story at )isney's. *hat was fun too. *hat was creati%e. 'y, how the day flewB *he creati%e !art was great. *he fact that you had the freedo# to do this. *hat your re!utation hung on what you did, as an artist, as an ani#ator, as a creati%e !erson.
ADAMSON

)idn't #ake you tense u! at all,

HUEMER

4f course not. Anyway it wasn't that critical. 9ery often the !roducer was darn glad to get the footage. Because he had to ha%e so #uch e%ery week. 'ind you I'# talking of the early days""not )isney's.
ADAMSON

ou didn't get #uch friction as far as the stuff not co#ing u! to !ar, or anything like that,
HUEMER

/o, %ery little of that. 4ur standards were !retty #odest.

ADAMSON

ou did no !encil tests.

HUEMER

4h, no, )isney started that. *he way we worked it at 6leischers, )a%e would co#e o%er to your board and sit down with you and talk about what we were doing. It was %ery infor#al. As I told you the other day, we had a basic story line, of course, that we stuck to. 6or instance, if a character went to 'ars, it had to be 'artian stuff and not -awaiianB But that's about it. If you entered fro# the left, you went out at the right.
ADAMSON

&as there any !roble# of the ends not 3oining, or the !ieces not #eshing,
HUEMER

/one whate%er. A si#!le hook"u! sufficed.

ADAMSON

ou didn't feel, at any ti#e, that you were !art of the fil##aking industry, then, did you,
HUEMER

/ow, that's a %ery interesting +uestion, because ne%er did. Ani#ated cartoons were sort of the backwater of the #o%ie business""I al#ost said, 'AssholeB' *hat's what so#e used to call itB 4f course, you know, they didn't !ay any #oney for the# in the theaters. )istributors ga%e the# away. *hey ne%er got any re%iews in the trade 3ournals. *hey didn't get re%iews until )isney ca#e along, and sound had #ade the cartoons really good at last.
ADAMSON

ou said there was no actual de#and for the cartoons,

HUEMER

(orrectB /ot way back in 191=.

ADAMSON

&ell, why do you think they were done,

HUEMER

)on't ask #e. I don't know. /obody #ade #uch #oney out of the#. It was 3ust a no%elty. &hy are no%elties #ade,
ADAMSON

'ostly to #ake #oney, it see#s to #e.

HUEMER

&ell, if so#ebody was #aking #oney, they didn't let #e know. I don't know who was #aking it. &ell, co#e to think of it, 6ables

#ade #oney, as I told you, because it was kind of a ke!t wo#an !ro!osition. ;>4 ran the# in their theaters, and they had to !ay so #uch !ershowing because they had bought ownershi! in *erry's studios. *hat was a different thing entirely. *hey had a ready"#ade #arket with their enor#ous chain of theaters in which they could run these things. And they were therefore guaranteed a certain substantial a#ount for each fil#8 it wasn't a hit"and"#iss affair like other cartoons had to contend with.
ADAMSON

But if there wasn't an actual de#and, how do you think they got started, -ow or why, &hat were these !eo!le's attitudes toward what they were doing, &ere they 3ust doing it for kicks or what,
HUEMER

ou #ean the !eo!le who !roduced the#, *hey were all funda#entally artist fellers, to begin with. &insor 'c(ay, of course, was an e$tre#ely good cartoonist, one of the %ery greatest. And Barre was a fine artist and !ainter. *erry and !eo!le like hi# were cartoonists, and it was a challenge to try this new #ediu#. It was intriguing and it was fun to do, too. *hey en3oyed the#sel%es. I can ne%er say that it wasn't fun to ani#ate. /or did I e%er #eet anybody who didn't thoroughly en3oy doing it. &e were all glad to be in the business. It was new and it !aid %ery well. And there were those of us who e$!eri#ented, like :arl -urd, who in%ented things...the 6leischersHand later )isney.
ADAMSON

It was #ostly for the artistic interest, then.

HUEMER

I guess you could say that. &e all lo%ed being cartoonists. &hich we had of course set out to be. &e all got !aid for it. &hen I told you the other day that so#e of the artists #ade about three or four hundred dollars a week, and you were wondering how that could be, in those !oor ti#es, well, those ani#ators like 'oser worked for -earst. -e had organi1ed the International (artoon .tudios. -e had #oney to throw away, and he could run it at a losing !ro!osition and !ay those salaries.
ADAMSON

.o that Bud 6isher and !eo!le like this ran the things as one of their %entures, didn't care whether it #ade #oney for the# or not. )idn't care if it lost a little, a!!arently.
HUEMER

I'# not so sure, but Bud 6isher #ay ha%e #ade so#e #oney out of it, too. -e had the knack. But I'# sure -earst lost on his International 2ictures %enture.
ADAMSON

But he thought it was doing his whole business good.

HUEMER

:$actly. It was !ublicity for cartoon characters in his news!a!ers.

ADAMSON

&hat sort of !erson was 6isher,

HUEMER

I ne%er s!oke to hi#. -e would 3ust !o! in and !o! out, had so #any interests, and this was !robably the least of his %entures. -e see#ed to be a %ery +uiet guy. -e ga%e so#e of us the feeling that he was trying to be su!erior, you know, as the boss. Although he wasn't acti%ely the boss8 he ne%er bossed anybody, or stayed long enough to tell anybody what to do. -e 3ust hobnobbed with Barre. *hat was his only contact. &e 3ust saw hi# walk in and out, that's all. Besides, he was doing his stri! at the ti#e, which was #aking a great deal of #oney. As I told you, he was a #illionaire.
ADAMSON

.o there was a co#radeshi! in the Barre grou!.

HUEMER

4h, wonderful co#radeshi!, yes.

ADAMSON

-ow long would it take the# to shoot one of the fil#s, then, between the ti#e you ani#ated the stuff and saw it on the screen,

HUEMER

4h, that was %ery +uick. &e #ade one a week, so they o%erla!!ed in !hotogra!hy and other o!erations. &e used to look at our own work and laugh like hell. EAda#son laughs like hellF &e did, we thought it was great. But in the theater, they didn't. &e were !leasing each other, you know. 9ery strange thing. I re#e#ber a scene I did with 'utt and Jeff !laying instru#ents. As well as I can re#e#ber offhand, Jeff is blowing like hell on this big tube. All of a sudden a brick flies out and hits hi# on the head. Big laugh in the !ro3ection roo#. 0ags like that. 5ater, he blows a flute and a snake co#es out, it was do!ey stuff. &e thought that was %ery funny. But, the stuff really wasn't built u! to the way )isney subse+uently learned to do. *hat is, to !re!are, to establish things. &e ne%er see#ed to bother #uch with that, or !erha!s it ne%er occurred to us to do it. )isney always %ery carefully !lanned things, so that e%erything was understandable, and one thing ha!!ened after another, logically. *here's gotta be logic in hu#or, I guess.
ADAMSON

.o the serious !art of co#edy was what you were #issing.

HUEMER

4ur #istake was we weren't establishing anything first. &e were gi%ing the !ayoff without the buildu!. 4f course, I'# only talking about #yself, #aybe other !eo!le did things differently. -owe%er, the o!eration was %ery #uch as I describe it all o%er. In other words, that you sat by yourself and did what you felt like. And if it was good, you !leased the boss, if it wasn't you didn't work there any#ore. .i#!le as that.
ADAMSON

ou said you ne%er felt like a (a!ricorn.

HUEMER

/o, I'# not a !erfectionist. I'# %ery careless, and %ery la1y. And I couldn't care less about #ost things. And that's the funny thing about it, I got away with it. 6ro# this I #ade a li%ingB *ell #e #ore about (a!ricorns.
ADAMSON

&ell, they usually find the hardest way to do things.

HUEMER

.eeB *hat's what's wrong. *he whole thing's a fake.

ADAMSON

&hy,
HUEMER

&ell, I take the easiest way all the ti#e..

ADAMSON

:%en when you were doing your co#ic stri!, -ow long would that take you,
HUEMER

I had to #ake one a day. .i$ a week. I had two co#ic stri!s, did I tell you that, 4ne was called '0ood *i#e 0uy' which I did with Bill (ounsel#an, who did :lla (inders. &ell, he wrote '0ood *i#e 0uy' also, and I drew it. And all I did was draw one a day. *ook three or four hours. -e would ty!e the# out""sent the# in fro# the coastH first !anel, second !anel, third !anel, and what ha!!ened in the action. *he dialogue would be in se!arate bo$es so I could tell what it was naturally. I also did 'Buck o' ;oo' #any years later. A &estern satire. I was out of the studio for a while. *he first one was in twenty"se%en and twenty"eight and the other was in the fifties.
ADAMSON

&as it a realistic stri!, '0ood *i#e 0uy',

HUEMER

es, sort of. It wasn't grotes+ue or too cartooned. .ort of in between.

ADAMSON

It wasn't a 'utt and Jeff sort of thing.

HUEMER

4h, no, that's what I #ean. It was #ore in between that and the %ery straight drawing you often see nowadays. I don't know if you know of an artist by the na#e of /or#an 5ind. -e was %ery !ro#inent in the twenties. -e laid the characters out for the syndicate and then they got #e in to draw the#. -e designed the#. But 'Buck 4' ;oo' I wrote originally and so#ebody else drew it. *ried that co#bination. And that didn't work either. :$ce!t for a cou!le of years. /ow I write the )isney stri!"'*rue 5ife Ad%entures.'
ADAMSON

ou write the#, Based on what,

HUEMER

All based on ani#alsH#a##als and birds and fish.

ADAMSON

I #ean does so#ebody hand you the infor#ation or so#ething,

HUEMER

/o, I get it out of books. I read all the ti#e. I search through #aga1ines, books. And I'll get a nub of an idea. *hen I ha%e to change it a round to #ake it an ad%enture, and I get into the #erest touch of what's called anthro!o#or!his#. Just a touch. Because too #uch is no good. 2honey. *he feature is an outgrowth of the )isney fil#s, '*rue 5ife Ad%entures.' 4nly I can't use the #o%ie #aterial, because it doesn't ada!t to a single !anel treat#ent. It de!ends on a gi%en dra#atic situation. I'%e been doing it for thirteen years.
ADAMSON

0ot out of the ani#ation business.

HUEMER

eah. 4h, well, I did that long ago. I got out of actual ani#ation way back in 'D8.
ADAMSON

-ow co#e,
HUEMER

I got tired of it, finally. Bone weary. I went into regular cartoon direction, I directed, a cou!le of )isney shorts. '0oofy and &ilbur G was one, and the other was '*he &halers'""'0oofy and &ilbnur' was the first ti#e 0oofy was used as a #ain character. Before that, he'd been 3ust one of the cast.
ADAMSON

&hy was it you finally left cartoons altogether,

HUEMER

&hy I went into doing the news!a!er end, *hey asked #e at the studio. .o I did it. I used to like to gi%e shows, as a kid. 5ittle shows with a little theatre with a little !rosceniu# and a little stage and then I'd !ut #y hands into the scene, you know, like a !u!!et show. I was in show bi1.
ADAMSON

ou did that regularly or 3ust fro# ti#e to ti#e,

HUEMER

/o, once in a while. 4therwise I was a nor#al boy.

ADAMSON

&hat kind of cartoons did you do in high school,

HUEMER

6or instance, they were #ostly things like headings for articles. *here was the lettering, '6ootball,' and so#e a!!ro!riate figure under it kicking or doing so#ething like that. I didn't tel1 you about #y career with Judge #aga1ine, did I, 6or #any #onths, al#ost a year or so, I drew s!ot gags for Judge.
ADAMSON

&hen was this,

HUEMER

&ell, that's when I was with the Associated Ani#ators. &e had our own ani#ation business, and I used to do that on the side. *he New !orker3ust started about that sa#e ti#e. I ne%er #ade it. Although, I tried to sell the# a nu#ber of things.
ADAMSON

&hen you ran the Associated Ani#ators, was the idea for the three of you to share the !rofits, the three of you,
HUEMER

es, four of us !artners.

ADAMSON

4r did you !ay each other salaries, or...,

HUEMER

&ell, we took what was left. &e had a staff of about ten !eo!le. And one other ani#ator, a guy na#ed I. >lein who subse+uently got into theNew !orker and did a lot of stuff. -e's one of the !ioneers.
ADAMSON

-e was !aid a salary,

HUEMER

es, he got his salary. 6orget what it was, it wasn't #uch. But, as I told you, we #ade the# for I1A@@ a week. And we had to !ay the rent, and buy su!!lies and fil#, and !ay !eo!le to ink and !aint. And we had two ca#era#en.
ADAMSON

.o the four of you arranged all the finances,

HUEMER

es. &hen we deli%ered the negati%e, we got I1A@@. 6ro# Bud 6isher's attorney. I'# afraid we didn't take ho#e #uch #oney oursel%es.
ADAMSON

Is that why you ga%e it u!,

HUEMER

/o, finally Bud 6isher decided not to do it any#ore. -e ga%e it u!. .o we didn't ha%e any #oney. I went straight back to 6leischers fro# there. But 0ilette went with Bowers, and -arrison and 0ould went with 'int1. But we had been, as I told you, the first co" o!erati%e. <.2.A. tried it later and were successful in a #ore rece!ti%e #arket.
ADAMSON

ou say you en3oyed working with the 6leischers #ore than #ost of the other things you'd done.
HUEMER

I actually en3oyed working with 6leischers #ore than anything else in the world. *hat's taken for granted, but working with the 6leischers was a %ery !leasant e$!erience in #y life, they were %ery nice guys. And I'# not saying that because this is on ta!e. /o. 'a$ was a %ery kindly guy, a gentle#an.
ADAMSON

&hat function did he ha%e in the creation of the thing,

HUEMER

I think 'a$ was with Bray, originally, and then I belie%e, after he'd #ade so#e fil#s, I'# not sure, then I think he took )a%e in with hi#. *hink that's how it worked. ou see, he had been creati%e in starting the 'Inkwell' series. 5ater on, he didn't #i$ in #uch in the !roduction. I think his brother )a%e carried it on for the #ost !art. /e%ertheless, he was there to render final o!inions and as !resident to run the co#!any. After all, he had other ideas on e$!ansion. -e for#ed little li%e action co#!anies. Be would buy fil#s. -e started ;ed .eal 6il# (or!oration to release this !roduct and for a while he was doing, unsuccessfully I'# afraid, what

)isney finally did %ery successfully""releasing his own !ictures. It wasn't successful for the reason that in establishing these little agencies and booking offices, he !aid out #ore than he took in for the fil#s. It 3ust didn't work out. And that's the story as I understand it. 'a$ was really the front #an, but of course he was in e%ery one of the >oko the (lown cartoons.
ADAMSON

-e s!ent #ost of his ti#e in the front office and as an actor.

HUEMER

es, it see#ed to kee! hi# %ery busy. I ne%er saw hi# #uch in the drawing roo#s. I #ean acti%ely !artici!ating. )a%e took o%er that chore. )a%e handled it. And %ery well. It was fun working with )a%e.
ADAMSON

&hen you say it was fun, do you #eanH

HUEMER

)a%e had good ideas. &e laughed a lot, and said, '-ey, that's funnyB' 4r, '0reatB &hy don't we do that.' *hat's how the business of creation was carried on.
ADAMSON

'ost of the !eo!le who ran ani#ation concerns then see# to gi%e out #ore than they take in. &hat ke!t their concerns going,
HUEMER

&ell, I told you that 2at .ulli%an #ade a lot of #oney on licensees. And *erry #ade #uch #oney on his being associated with ;>4. I guess 6leischer #ust ha%e taken enough #oney in, at first, on his !ictures through states' righting the#. 4therwise he couldn't ha%e o!erated. At the ti#e I wouldn't say that he was a wealthy #en, as an owner of a co#!anyH certainly he was no #illionaire, the way )isney beca#e, or so#e of the others like -anna"Barbera, #y 0odB &owB At any rate it was !retty touch and go. 6or a long ti#e. And there was, as I told you, a crisis e%ery s!ring. &hether we were gonna get a new release or not...we called it getting a release. 9ery often the release was out the front door.

ADAMSON

ou ne%er e$!ected the thing to burgeon into what )isney turned it into,
HUEMER

I #ust say I ne%er did. 4h, there we r e !eo!le who had drea#s, I told you about this one guy, 5ederer, who was going to do a feature about (inderella. -e was the fellow who in%ented de!th in the !anora#a scenes, you re#e#ber. I ha%e here a book of 5ut1's, you'%e heard of hi#. In this he talks about what the future #ight #ean to ani#ated cartoons, that they #ight so#eday do serious worthwhile things.
ADAMSON

4f course, the book was written in 'A7.

HUEMER

eah, whene%er it was. Incidentally, 5ut1 looked like so#ething fro# the 5eft Bank or out of La "oheme.
ADAMSON

Is this )isney ani#ation !a!er,

HUEMER

es, that's )isney ani#ation !a!er. /otice these slits. 4riginally he only had two holes like e%erybody else. *hen he added slits for better registry.
ADAMSON

I'%e got >oko the (lown in front of #e. 6our fingers, did he always ha%e four fingers,
HUEMER

e!. All cartoon characters ha%e three fingers and a thu#b.

ADAMSON

Big, long, %ertical eyes.

HUEMER

e!, with a little cross in between the#.

ADAMSON

A little cross,
HUEMER

.hould be. Isn't there,

ADAMSON

4h, you #ean in the #iddle of...

HUEMER

In the #iddle of the eye, there should be a little slit.

ADAMSON

-ow was that designed,

HUEMER

oh, that's, a clown's #ake"u!, don't you knowH they !ut little lines down this way when they !aint their eyes, you'%e seen clowns in this #ake"u!.
ADAMSON

/ow, this clown was #odeled after )a%e.

HUEMER

)a%e !ut the suit on, and then !ranced around in front of a ca#era and did whate%er was re+uired. 6or ;otosco!e, that is.
ADAMSON

But it has his facial features.

HUEMER

&ell, it has his rather big neck.

ADAMSON

And wide #outh.

HUEMER

&ell, in a way, I su!!ose. &e did all our own inking. 6irst you !enciled. And then you #ade the inbetweens, and you inked those. *hat re#inds #e now, I'# glad you #entioned thatH &ay back in 'utt and Jeff days when looking at a !iece of fil#, I noticed that %ery often the action was blurred in between, when so#ething was #o%ing fast. And I decided that I would sa%e all that work of in" betweening by 3ust ha%ing a bunch of lines or s#udges, 3ust scrabble, fro# !osition to !osition, when so#ething #o%ed fast. *o !ro%e it, I had an alar# clock flying through the air, and right in the #iddle of the action I !ut a brick. And when they ran the finished fil# you didn't see the brickB It !ro%ed that you didn't really see what was in the #iddle. But I o%erdid it, finally it looked like haystacks in between, fro# !osition to !osition, and then Barre told #e to !lease knock it off. -e was always !olite. -e said softly, '5et's #ake the in"betweens like e%ery body else, eh,' If you look at old fil#s, you'll see often in a +uick action that the figure will be blurred. I got the idea of using lines to fill that s!ace in, going in the direction of the action, roughly of course in the sha!e and si1e of the character.
ADAMSON

*his is done today all the ti#eB

HUEMER

It is done todayB By 0eorgeB I ne%er thought of that. /ow that you #ention it. *hat was really the "lue Streak, that's where #odern ani#ationreall# ca#e fro#B
ADAMSON

&hat do you #ean,

HUEMER

I 'ean the stuff that -anna and Barbera do. In )isney's '*he *ortoise and the -are' we had the hare running so fast that he left a blue streak trailing. &e always had this blue streak, and he 3ust went across in about four drawing, lea%ing this long blue streak. *hat was the first ti#e it had been done. /ow they do the sa#e

thing. Another )isney in%entionB &hen I did it I had it #o%ing too slow so you could see the lines. *he (lown's not co#!arable to )isney's characteri1ation which, as I started to say before this, woke us all u! by trying for greater realis#, which we either didn't then know enough to atte#!t or care to atte#!t. At any rate we hadn't done it.
ADAMSON

ou were co!ying action off the ;otasco!e, isn't this the #ethod used to ani#ate the (lown,
HUEMER

es. But that would only be one little scene in one of the shorts. And it was too e$!ensi%e to do. It #eant that all the action had to beH first shot, !hotogra!hed, and then it would ha%e to be !ro3ected and so#ebody would ha%e to draw each fra#e. And so#ebody would ha%e to change it, and so#ebody had to ink it. All so that it didn't look too different fro# the ani#ation that was hand"drawn.
ADAMSON

)id you do any of it,

HUEMER

/o, I ne%er did any of it. *hat was !urely #echanical.

ADAMSON

It looked !retty realistic, though...

HUEMER

)id )a%e e%er #ention so#ebody by the na#e of )oc (randall,

ADAMSON

/ot yet.
HUEMER

&ell, he should because when I ca#e to work for 6leischers he was their only ani#ator. -e used to do the ;otasco!e. -e used to

trans!ose it fro# fil# to cartoon as well as do other bits of ani#ation.

ADAMSON

*here was only two of you, then, when you started with 6leischer,
HUEMER

/o, Burt 0ilette had gotten there before #e. And he got #e in. *hat's how it ha!!ened. -e'd been at 'utt and Jeff. -e had been sort of a sho! fore#an u! there. -e was head #an for a while, ran the !lace. &hen it changed hands, after both Barre and Bowers were out, 0ilette ran it for the Jefferson 6il# (or!oration. .o when he left that !lace he went to the 6leischers, then he got #e in there. It was a %ery s#all staff. I don't think there were #ore than about si$ !eo!le in on the !ro!osition.
ADAMSON

*he whole thing, Including inkers and !ainters and ca#era#en,

HUEMER

eah. .o#ething like that. .ay ten at the #ost.

ADAMSON

/ot e%en as big as Barre's !lace, then.

HUEMER

/o, it was %ery s#all, %ery co1y little !lace. *hey were on the first floor of an old brownstone building on 7?th .treet.
ADAMSON

*hey were #ore and less leading the field at the ti#e, weren't they,
HUEMER

/o, *erry was already doing well. *erry had a head start, had already started his '6ables' o!erations. And 2at .ulli%an was going along too. I don't know of anybody else.
ADAMSON

)id you see #uch of the stuff turned out by the other studios,
HUEMER

&hen I was with 6leischers, the only one who we considered serious co#!etition and who we considered !erha!s as ha%ing the edge on us was the *errytoons. &e often went to see the# to study the#. And we were often i#!ressed.
ADAMSON

&hen you say 'we' are you including the 6leischers,

HUEMER

.ure, the 6leischers too. &e were all friends, you know. It was a s#all world.
ADAMSON

But they didn't resent the co#!etition,

HUEMER

4h, no, nothing like that. *here wasn't enough in%ol%ed for that. )on't forget )isney was the big boy in those days, and there wasn't really anybody that was anywhere near hi#. -e wasn't big at all before sound. In fact he was clearly nowhere before sound. I had ne%er heard of )isney until I went to the (olony *heater on Broadway and saw one of his silent '4swalds.' /ow this #ust ha%e been 'A=. 4r so#ewhere in there. And I liked it so well that it was a case of ''y goshB &ho was this guy, where'd he co#e fro#,' And '*his is the best stuffB' And, bad though it #ay look now, it looked, wonderful to #e. And to usHother friends in the business. It wasn't long before sound ca#e out. &ith it ca#e )isney's s#ash cartoons successes like '2lane (ra1y,' '.keleton )ance,' and '.tea#boat &illie.' But before that I think I'd seen about four or fi%e of )isney's things. I used to go deliberately to that theater 3ust to see the#. I thought they were that good.
ADAMSON

-ow did you feel about this, )id you feel any resent#ent,
HUEMER

2leasure.
ADAMSON

As a #e#ber of the industry,

HUEMER

;ight. I ad#ired )isney as so#ebody who ga%e us so#ething to be !roud of. /o, there #ay ha%e been those who were 3ealous, but I ne%er was. And there were those who figured that if they tried to, and if they had &alt's secrets, and knew his tricks, they could do the sa#e. :%erybody thought &alt had so#e kind of dee! secret for#ula. *hings known only to hi# that #ade his cartoons so good. 4utsiders really insisted that he had so#e cle%er trick or other. *he only trick he e%er had was great genius and a!!lication, and his !erfectionis#. Boy, he had itB It actually was a shot in the ar# for the business. I was with the 6leischers and we all started #aking sound cartoons. *he only ones who did anything co#!arable at all, and they didn't e%er +uite reach )isney, were -ar#an and Ising. *hey occasionally would turn out a real good fil#. *hey worked so#ething like )isney. *hey had so#e of the feeling of a )isney, the only ones who e%er had it, they had it. *hey would occasionally try to do so#ething significant. 5ike they would #ake a cartoon against war. &hich wasn't half bad. 4nce when they were in trouble with .chlesinger )isney hel!ed the# out financially. *here's a fa#ous story about &alter 5ant1. -e used to gi%e runnings of his cartoons in theaters for kids on .aturday. And one ti#e he ran all his 4swalds and then he a!!eared !ersonally on stage and talked to the kids. *hen when it was o%er he said, '/ow what is the best cartoon in the worldB' And all the kids yelled out, ''ickey 'ouseB' *his actually ha!!ened.
ADAMSON

ou weren't %ery i#!ressed with the 'int1 organi1ation in the !eriod you were working there.
HUEMER

/ot too. I'll ad#it that we tried to #ake good !ictures. But, again, they didn't ha%e a %ery good release. I don't re#e#ber seeing #any of the# around. (olu#bia was releasing our stuff. ou see,

(harlie 'int1 hi#self was a business#an. *o hi#, it was a good way of #aking #oney. And that was the trouble with #any of the#. *hat was the trouble with .chlesinger of &arner Brothers, it was 3ust a source of inco#e for hi#. And while he was concerned, no doubt, in #aking the# good, he had no actual hand in acco#!lishing this.
ADAMSON

&ell, describe working conditions at the 'int1 !lace.

HUEMER

*hey were fine for #e.

ADAMSON

ou had freedo#,
HUEMER

4h, yes, co#!lete. It was !leasant for #e. And for those of us who were bosses. 5ike -arrison and 0ould were there on '>ra1y >at.' And .id 'arcus and Artie )a%is also, who were head#en of the '.cra!!y' series.
ADAMSON

.o you were directing,

HUEMER

es, we directed. As well as ani#ating e%erything also.

ADAMSON

But you didn't ha%e to do your own inking or !ainting,

HUEMER

/o. &hen you worked on !a!er, you did your own inking. &e did it at the 6leischers. :%en the stuff that was trans!osed to cells, to be used o%er a !hotogra!h on the ;otasco!e, would be inked, And you did you own inking. -einrich >ley was a great !en and ink technician. &e ad#ired hi#. -e was a beautiful drafts#an. And the stuff had a cartoony,

hu#orous a!!eal. &asn't straight drawing. And because, as I say, we sketched and did %arious e#bellish#ents with the !en and ink, which was fun to do, we tried to i#itate hi#. &e couldn't actually i#itate hi# because you couldn't actually i#itate his techni+ue. -is figures were too full of lines. *hey weren't si#!le enough for the tracing and retracing we had to do. &alt had a whole collection of >ley's stuff, -e !icked the# u! after the war, -e's got'e# fra#ed, down in )isneyland. *here's a !lace down there called the 'DC' (lub, or so#ething like that, which is for 9I2's only. ou can only get in through the studio. But in the lobby they ha%e #any of >ley's wonderful fra#ed originals.
ADAMSON

I do notice that this was #ore or less the cartoon style of the stri! and of the ti#e.
HUEMER

4f the ti#e, yeah. 4f course, they all were, naturally. Bray's '(olonel -ee1a 5iar' is distinctly a cartoon of its !eriod. I'# not 3ust saying it about Bray's. Actually it was a kind of a funda#entally ugly style of caricature. *o #e anyway.
ADAMSON

)id it see# ugly then,

HUEMER

/o, actually not. :%erybody was doing it. ou'll find, if you look at '(olonel -ee1a 5iar,' he's +uite an ugly little guy. And so is 6eli$ the (at""a !retty weird little thing""but I thought 'ickey 'ouse was cute i##ediately. ;ight away he was a cute little character.
ADAMSON

)id 'ickey 'ouse look that #uch #ore striking than 4swald the ;abbit,
HUEMER

&ell, we could all tell the difference. es, there was a big difference. 4f course, 4swald the ;abbit didn't ha%e the stories. But #ost of all 4swald didn't ha%e )isney. If 'ickey 'ouse didn't ha%e

)isney, it wouldn't be 'ickey 'ouse. /o, that #an )isney was good.
ADAMSON

All of the cartoons of the ti#e rese#bled ani#ated co#ic stri!s, didn't they, *his was the idea.
HUEMER

Basically, yes. But not in !en techni+ue because you couldn't !ut all this shading in the cell syste# cartoons. *erry couldn't !ut any of that shading in like I ha%e done there. Because that was done on !a!er. ou could do shading on !a!er. In '>oko' you could do it on !a!er also. But you couldn't do it on cells. /obody did it. (ertainly not *erry.
ADAMSON

*he ani#ation that I'%e seen of this ti#e see#s to ha%e a co#!letely different te$ture.
HUEMER

&ell, becuase it wasn't analy1ed. )isney was the first !erson who really analy1ed cartoon action. 4ld ani#ation was done fro# !ose to !ose without #uch thought. It was al#ost like it was a design. &ithout any weight. &hereas )isney i##ediately ga%e his characters weight, and life and breath, and naturalness. In )isney it flowed fro# thing to thing, and our stuff went fro# e$tre#e to e$tre#e. Because it was. A character would co#e to a co#!lete sto! fro# a stride !osition8 he'd co#e to a co#!lete sto! and there he'd hold it. And his eyes would blink. 4r his hair would stand u!, or whate%er. 4r if his head did turn, the rest of hi# would still be stuck there stiffly. &hereas )isney got away fro# all that. -e figured that in any action a figure ne%er ca#e to a co#!lete sto! all at once. *hings o%erla!!ed. 4%erla!!ing action was an in%ention of )isney's. &hen a fat #an 3u#!s u!, the to! !art of his body takes off first and then the lower !art follows u! a few fra#es later. And then when he co#es down, this #ass stretches out, kee!s going u! for a while, and then that dro!s after. *his idea, one thing o%erla!!ing, #o%e#ent within the figure, was so#ething that )isney first brought to our attention. It was ne%er done in the old days when e%erything was like a cut"out thing, #o%ing in one !iece. /o thought of his clothing following through, swee!ing out

and dro!!ing a few fra#es later which is what it does naturally. *hat's why )isney's ani#ation looked so different.
ADAMSON

)id the ani#ation industry consist of, chiefly, older or younger #en,
HUEMER

Barre had been a fine arts !ainter, who !ainted !ortraits and things like that, and he #ay ha%e been in the co##ercial art business. 0eorge .tallings had been a cartoonist in the .outh so#ewhere. .tallings was about fi%e years older than #e8 and 6oster had been in so#e business like u!holstering, I think anyway. 6oster was the oldest. *hen he #ust ha%e been in his thirties. And I told you about this other guy, &eber, who was a sign !ainter. -ow he only ca#e in when it got cold. And for the rest, they were young like #yself, all guys who wanted to be cartoonists. Art )a%is' brother, 'annie )a%is, ca#e to work there too, about that ti#e. I don't think he'd had any other 3obs. And 6eg 'urray was a s!orts cartoonist, in /ew ork (ity. -e had been a s!orts cartoonist on a news!a!er. But none of us had too #uch e$!erience. (ertainly not in ani#ation, because it was such a new business. (harlie Bowers had been an editorial cartoonist for the Newark News. And I hate to ad#it it but he was a da#n good one. -e really was great.
ADAMSON

.o by the twenties, it was !retty #uch of a #i$ed bag, then, of !eo!le who had been artists and cartoonists and !eo!le who hadn't been anything.
HUEMER

It would ha%e to be. &e were all e+ually ine$!erienced. &e had the brother of 0lackens, the fa#ous Ashcan .chool artist. -e worked for a while at 'utt and Jeff. -e had been so#e kind of a fine artist and illustrator and had contributed to Judge and Li e. And so#ebody called 6rank /anke%ille. -e also worked out there for a while. ou'll find his na#e also in 2unch and those old co#ic #aga1ines. And I told you about 9et Anderson, the guy that ke!t his tobacco in his !ocketHto fill his !i!e. -e had also contributed to hu#orous #aga1ines. .o so#e of the# had that sort of e$!erience. *hey could all certainly draw. :ach #an was his own creator. -e sat

there and he thought u! all the stuff he ani#ated. It was his res!onsibility. It was always inherent in the thing down underneath that you would like to do so#ething good. 5ike when Albert -urter did the A#erican flag, which we thought was so wonderful. 4f course -urter was su!erb as an artist. 9ery !ossibly he was the best that e%er ca#e into the business. /o, we often e$!eri#ented or tried to do nice things, like when I e$!eri#ented with the haystacks, for in"betweens, to try it that s!eed effect. And as for gags, we tried to be as funny as we could. )idn't ha%e #uch ti#e to do it though. ou #ainly had to knock out your footage +uota in a week. /e$t week you started o%er again with so#e other !icture.
ADAMSON

ou didn't feel any !ressure at this,

HUEMER

*o be sure. *here was a great deal of !ressure. &e had to work nights so#e of the ti#e. /o !icture8 no !ay.
ADAMSON

&ithout o%erti#e,
HUEMER

4h, 0od, noB *here was no union then.

ADAMSON

&hen did they enter the !icture,

HUEMER

Around 'D9. &hen they organi1ed and struck )isney's. Before that, there had been a sort of co#!any union of which I was %ice" !resident. es it was definitely a co#!any union. )isney had initiated and fostered it. *hey figured we had to ha%e a union so they, #ostly 0unther 5essing"&alt's attorney, set it u!.
ADAMSON

&hat was its !ur!ose,

HUEMER

*o ha%e a union to thwart, any outside union fro# getting in. *o satisfy !eo!le who thought we ought to a union.
ADAMSON

&ell, what did you achie%e,

HUEMER

/othing. Because the other union EIA*.:F ca#e a long and !ut us out of business. *he #ore legiti#ate union, according to the laws, ca#e along. *he one we ha%e now, the .creen (artoonists.
ADAMSON

Are they the ones who staged the strike,

HUEMER

eah. ;ight. I didn't go out on strike. Being %ice"!resident of the other union, what could I do, *hey used to 3eer at us as we ca#e in and out. And once &alt took off his coat and wanted to s+uare it off with so#ebody. I think it was Art Babbitt. Just kidding, you know. But they weren't kidding. *hey'd yell things at you as you went through the gate. 'ighty unco#!li#entary things. 5ike how one guy was an alcoholic or so#ething.
ADAMSON

.o you ne%er had #uch to do with the other union,

HUEMER

4h, yes, I was a steward for a while in self"defense. .ure, we all 3oined it. (artoonists are not that labor oriented. *he easiest thing was to 3oin it and go along with it. .ure, I was a steward for a while.
ADAMSON

A steward,
HUEMER

es, I re!resented the ani#ators or so#ething was on the board. *he only stewing I did was about the indignity of ha%ing to go to #eetings which bored the hell out of #e.

ADAMSON

our friends, are they cartoonists,

HUEMER

/o. 'y !ersonal friends are #ostly ci%ilians.

ADAMSON

)id you stay away fro# the# intentionally,

HUEMER

I'%e always #ade it a !ractice not to li#it #y friends to business associates. I like to lea%e #y work behind. 4h, occasionally, of course, we got together. But not as a steady thing. I do it less and less as ti#e gees on. I think it's a good idea. I don't think #any !eo!le sociali1e with each other at )isney's. I think you should ha%e a co#!lete change in e%ery way when you lea%e your 3ob. 0o ho#e and forget it.
ADAMSON

)id you go ho#e e%er and e$!eri#ent at night with %arious !ro3ects,
HUEMER

es. I did a book of !oetry, and I'%e done +uite a bit of writing. 5ike the record I showed you which I did for the studio called 'A (hrist#as at )isneyland.' It was in so#e #aga1ine one (hrist#as. 9ery nice s!read. 5ater !ut it on a record. And then there's that book I wrote, the !oetry book""$ Dragon on the Hill %oad. I'# a %ery la1y guy. I like to read other !eo!le's writing #ostly.
ADAMSON

&hen you're off work, you resign your a#bitions,

HUEMER

I don't ha%e any a#bitions any#ore. &hen you get to be #y age, you don't worry about your future achie%e#ent. It's sort of behind you. &hat can you ho!e to acco#!lish any#ore, If I ha%en't done it now, it's not likely I'll e%er do it.

ADAMSON

&ell, let's go back before that.

HUEMER

&ell, I did the drawings for Judge #aga1ine. I did the# on the side. I needed the #oney"being %ice"!resident of 'Associated Ani#ators' !aid only in !restige.
ADAMSON

&as this book of !oetry !ublished,

HUEMER

By #yself. I designed it and I went to a !rinter and had the whole thing gotten u!.
ADAMSON

Is what I'# looking at ty!ical reading #aterial Aldous -u$ley, 'ilton and )ante,
HUEMER

es. I e%en read Bulwer"5ytton's dry"bones stuff. *hese are all art books down on the botto# shelf.
ADAMSON

(e1anne, Botticelli.
HUEMER

And collections of co#edy re!rints out of the New !orker and &anit# Fair, 2eter Arno. All the good co#ic artists are there. But the older I get the #ore I like to read factual stuff, I no longer care for no%els. I 3ust got finished reading 'acaulay's Histor# o 'ngland. It was fascinating. *hese were li%ing !eo!le. *his ha!!ened. I don't like #ake"belie%e stuff any#ore. /ot unless it's real good. I'# a (i%il war buff as you can see. I'%e always as you can see. I'%e always been interested in the (i%il &ar. I'%e always been fascinated by history. I should ha%e been a history teacher. I'# serious. If you would ask #e what I think I should

ha%e done, I'# sure it's that. I ne%er lose interest in the historical !ast.
ADAMSON

&ell, don't you think you #ight, if you were co#!elled to do it e%ery day,
HUEMER

5isten, I'%e read so #uch stuff. ou can't begin to thinkB .heeB

ADAMSON

)id you e%er do any actual research, 6or kicks, or 3ust a lot of reading,
HUEMER

/o. Just reading. I ne%er intended to do anything with it. Although there's a lot to be done in history. 5ots to be done. ou could take any sub3ect, and so far 3ust the surface has been scratched. *ake Abraha# 5incoln. I'%e got so #any books about hi#, yet you could still write a great book on hi#. I 3ust got finished reading about Ja#es II, in :ngland. &hat a fascinating sonofabitchB ;eally a #ad #onarch. ou wonder why the :nglish !ut u! with hi# so long.
ADAMSON

.o you're an historian at heart. ou weren't thinking during the twenties that you wished you were doing this, ou were still fascinated with ani#ation then, weren't you,
HUEMER

4h, of course, By all #eans, yes, always in so#e for# of drawing. &hen I wasn't doing ani#ation, I was doing a co#ic stri!. I'%e been %ery ha!!y with #y !rofession. :%en though I #ight better ha%e been a history teacher.
ADAMSON

)o you think it would ha%e worked out better,

HUEMER

:ither that, or if I had been on a news!a!er. *hat's an interesting !rofession. I should like to ha%e had a colu#n in the news!a!er. 5ike 62A. I su!!ose I'# kidding #yself. )on't know whether I could ha%e done it. But I certainly should ha%e liked that. But then nobody co#es along and says, '-ey, kid, how would you like to write a colu#n,' do they, /o. I consider that the ani#ation business has been %ery good to #e. I #ade %ery good #oney. I don't ha%e to worry financially e%en if I sto! working. And I #et so#e awfully nice !eo!le. Associated with a genius"")isney""and that's so#ething. Associating with a genius is really so#ething. It's frightening. /o, it was sti#ulating to be around )isney. &hen he'd co#e in a roo#, the hair would stand u! on the back of your neck"" figurati%ely. -e'd ha%e that effect on you. ou'd feel the !resence. It was s!ooky.
ADAMSON

&ell, wasn't this !robably because he was your e#!loyer,

HUEMER

/o, I think it was because he could see right through you. 2artly because he had the !ower of firing you which incidentally he ne%er wanted to do, hated to fire anybody.
ADAMSON

But, like e%ery other creati%e !erson, you felt you'%e had talents that ha%en't been used.
HUEMER

es, that's about it. *hat's why I'%e written lyrics for se%eral #usical co#edies that ha%e ne%er been !roduced, ho!ing they would be !roduced. I belong to A.(A2. I'%e written lyrics for songs that )isney has used. All !art of the creati%e life and relief fro# your other work too.
ADAMSON

At the sa#e ti#e, you ne%er felt frustrated,

HUEMER

I think, only once or twice, kind of late in #y ani#ation !eriod, did I feel that. I'd finally had enough. *hat I'd really had it. As a #atter

of fact that's how I beca#e a director. I got to the !oint where it bothered #e e%en to ani#ate a figure across the !age. *hat fact that here he was way o%er here and now I hadda bring hi# way o%er there. I had gotton fed u!. 5et hi# do it by hi#selfB .o that's when I went to &alt and told hi# I was through with ani#ation. &as there an o!ening for a director, 5uckily there ha!!ened to be. And direction at )isney's is a whole different thing, and a whole big story. &hat directors did at )isney's and what they didn't do. And I think that was the #ost fun of anything I did. I only directed two !ictures The (halers and )oo # and (ilbur, but I'# sure that was the #ost fun I e%er had. It was 3ust great. 6or one thing you were !resented with a great, finely worked out story. *his was gi%en to you. &alt had worked on this story, you had, too, a little. But here it was on your walls on the story boards. *here it was, all you had to do now was to #ake it. And this was a wonderful thing. ou knew that &alt already liked it. All you had to do was to #ake it ani#ate, which you did, with ani#ators, and with a #usician, and you ti#ed it, and you recorded your dialogue, and you looked at rush. ou had so"called sweat"bo$ sessions where the ani#ators showed their stuff and you critici1ed it, and then you had it inked and !hotogra!hed and cut. It was great, 3ust creati%e as can be. *hen you went to a !re%iew and the laughs were for you. ou felt that you had had so#ething !ersonal to do with the#. And knowing you had !leased &alt #ade you feel great.
ADAMSON

In the early days your cartoons weren't !re%iewed or anything, 3ust si#!ly sent out. ou didn't attend their first screening in a theater,
HUEMER

&e often didn't know what ha!!ened to the#. 4nce they left the studio, you didn't know where they went. *hey #ight ha%e been cro!!ed in a dee! hole. .o#e of the# deser%ed to be, I'# afraid.
ADAMSON

)id you care,

HUEMER

/ot too #uch. And when you did go in !re")isney days, what ha!!ened was as I told you so#ebody would say 'I hate these

thingsB' *hat sure took the edge off your !ride. I'# sure #y slight #isanthro!ic tendencies date fro# that !eriod.

1.#. TAPE NUMBER II: Side One, (Au$u%& ', 1968

HUEMER

&e always had !reli#inary #eetings before we did any of the e!isodes or #usical nu#bers in Fantasia, and out of nowhere one day &alt said, '.ay, is there any kind of #usic that would su!!ort the idea of the creation of the world, or the beginning of life on this world,' And before he was finished saying it al#ost, .tokowski said, '&hy, yesB *he .acreB' &alt said, '*he sock,' And .tokowski said, ' es, Sacre du Printemps by .tra%inskiB' ""which #eans ;ites of .!ring. And &alt said, ' eah, 'aybe that's what we're looking for.' .tokowski said, 'It isn't really about the creation of the world, but it is #usic that was written to de!ict life in !ri#iti%e .iberia a#ong the wild, al#ost stone"age !eo!le""their dances, and their religious rites. It's %ery, %ery weird, out of this world #usic.' .o &alt said, '5et's hear it.' .o we ha!!ened to ha%e a record Ewe did e%erything fro# records at first, like with Beetho%en, we had *oscanini's %ersion to work fro# originally, and got the record and !layed it. And that was it. &alt said, '*his is greatB' .o there's the genesis of !art of Fantasia.
ADAMSON

.tra%inski wasn't %ery !leased about that.

HUEMER

&e ne%er saw .tra%inski. At least, I ne%er did. *here are %arious %ersions on that. 4ne is that when .tra%inskl saw it, he said that's what he #eant, that's what he had in #ind. Although I don't belie%e it. I don't think Beetho%en would ha%e said that's what he had in #ind if he saw what we did to his 2astoral .y#!hony either. But it was original with us.
ADAMSON

&ell, would that bother you, if he did say that wasn't what he had in #ind,

HUEMER

Aw, no. &hy should it, &ho cares what they think. I #ean we're in the entertain#ent business, and #usic's a %ery arbitrary thing, isn't it, ou can say this #usic re!resents a stor#8 the ne$t guy says no, it re!resents a battle, or another guy says it re!resents an earth+uake""and they would all be right, because who's to say, .o we say that that Beetho%en #usic re#inds us of fawns ca%orting and centaurs. .o go !ro%e it doesn'tB
ADAMSON

&hen you started to work for )isney, did you do any ani#ating,
HUEMER

4h, yes. I ani#ated a lot of his !ictures like '*he 0rassho!!er and the Ants,' '*ortoise and the -are, '&ater Babies.' 'y first ani#ation was inLullab# Land and a nu#ber of .illy .y#!honies. *hen I ani#ated on '*he 5ittle &ise -en' which was the first ti#e )onald )uck a!!eared, the first ti#e they used his %oice. *hey hadn't 'found' hi# yet8 they hadn't deter#ined how to use hi#. -e beca#e a cranky character later on, but in this he was 3ust a duck who"s!oke with ')ucky' /ash's %oice. And I ani#ated on '*he Band (oncert,' which .hickel says is one of the best of his shorts. I did *he )uck in that !icture.
ADAMSON

.o you did run into the !roble# of finding the %oice for the duck,
HUEMER

/o, that was all done. &alt had deter#ined that. *he story as I hear it is that )ucky /ash ca#e to &alt looking for a 3ob and de#onstrated his %oices, and said, '-ere's one that I got. -ow do you like this, I don't know what it is.' And did it, and &alt said, '&hy that's a duckB' Anyway that's how I heard it8 I wasn't there. -e beca#e a crank in another !icture, which I didn't ani#ate on. I belie%e it's called '*he 4r!han's Benefit.' *hat's the first ti#e he was a crank and did this co#e"on"and"fight bit. )ick 5undy ani#ated and deser%es credit for that. And 6reddie .!encer deser%es credit for ha%ing drawn the duck the way he looks today. *he original duck, the way we ani#ated it at first, the #odels were #ade by so#ebody else and had a long, sort of !ointed beak. But

6reddie .!encer #ade it 3ust the way it looks today. .!encer was killed in an auto#obile accident in the thirties. 2ro#ising career.
ADAMSON

&hen you say #odels, do you #ean #odel sheets,

HUEMER

es...
ADAMSON

-e wasn't doing three"di#ensional #odels then, was he,

HUEMER

/o, no. *hat was only done when we were doing features. As a #atter of fact, not until we did Pinocchio. &e had a whole de!art#ent, the #odel de!art#ent, that did 3ust that. *hey would ha%e 2inocchio in a sitting !ose or !ointing or whate%er would hel! the ani#ator get the feeling of the roundness of the character. About two or three !ositions, I guess, at the #ost. .a#e with 0e!etto8 I can only re#e#ber two on hi#. *here were twenty #odels #ade in each series at least. /ot only were there 1@ or 1? ani#ators, there were also !eo!le who followed u!, who had to see the#, too.
ADAMSON

*hen you ne%er ani#ated fro# these #odels, ou always had the #odel sheets,
HUEMER

I think #y last actual ani#ation was on Snow (hite. It was a se+uence that was cut out, the bed"building se+uence. *hat's how &alt worked. -e did a lot of buck"shotting around, trying things so he'd always ha%e a lot of nice wealth to cut fro#. -e could always cut to the bone, so what was left was great. And then there was an eating se+uence. *hat was co#!letely ani#ated, but also cut out. *hese were real big se+uences.
ADAMSON

*hat's the one where )o!ey coughs u! the soa! that he swallowed in the other scene, isn't it,
HUEMER

es...
ADAMSON

*hey showed the !encil tests on tele%ision.

HUEMER

*hat's the *9 show I worked on. &e took these old drawings and we cleaned the# u! and shot the#, so it could be used to show !eo!le on *9. *hese are !encil drawings, as you recall. ou #ay ha%e noticed that it was kind of indistinct and %ague in s!ots, and fu11y.
ADAMSON

It was beautiful. It's a great sceneB

HUEMER

It's a good se+uence. &ell, that goes to show you. &alt had to cut so#ething. And this was so#ething that didn't tell the story, wasn't necessary.
ADAMSON

&hen did they build beds,

HUEMER

It was before .now &hite got into trouble with the witch. *hey're all sitting and thinking, with a beat""oo#"bah"oo#"bah"oo#"bah" bah, oo#"bah"oo#bah"oo#"bah"bah. And then one dwarf would say, '&hy don't we do this,' and the other would yell, '/oB' It goes on like that until finally .lee!y yawns and says, '&hy don't we build her a bed,' And then they all say, ' esB -oorayB &e'll build her a bedB' and off they go. *hat's how they started. I re#e#ber one of the things I ani#ated was one of the dwar%es on to! of a !ole with a chisel, and he snee1ed, and the force of it !ro3ected hi# down the !ole so that the chisel car%ed a scroll. .tuff like that""gags. *hat would ha%e been a good se+uence, too.

ADAMSON

-ow #uch of that was finished,

HUEMER

2encil tests. *hen he decided he didn't want it, so he didn't finish it u!. *hen I beca#e a director and I was #o%ed on to Pinocchio. I was the first director on Pinocchio. I worked on a lot of the o!ening stuff, where 0e!etto wants a child so badly and the Blue 6airy co#es down and obliges hi# and all that. 6ro# there I went on to Fantasia and story directing.
ADAMSON

-ow did you get into story directing fro# directing,

HUEMER

*hat's 3ust a title. As a director, you are %ery #uch in%ol%ed in the story anyway. It all blends together""you can't really say where one lea%es off. *he actual director of the !icture was Ben .har!steen, I think, the o%er"all director, that is. As a story director I was in on the creation of the #aterial with &alt and the rest of the staff. And I would occasionally take sections to work out with a grou!. I re#e#ber what fun it was working on the *chaiko%ski stuff, the walt1 of the flowers, the wonderful lea%es and !lant stuff, for#s. I had this little grou! and I'd %isit the# e%ery day, and we'd sit and talk8 that's how a story director works, you know. ou say, '&hat ha%e you done, -ey, that's goodB' or 'It isn't going to work,' and you talk, you toss around ideas, and you get it worked u! and drawn u! to the !oint where &alt finally co#es in. *hen he sits down with you and takes it all a!art or adds new stuff, and that's how the thing was worked out. I re#e#ber it was such fun because there were three girls doing the story boards and they would !ick weeds in the outside lots and bring the# in. ou'd be sur!rised how good looking these things were. *hey would use the# for designs and for so#e of the little characters like the thistles. 9ery interesting. *hey were a %ery dedicated grou!. 2eo!le who work on story boards are generally fine artists. et they don't know too #uch about ani#ation, or e%er do get into ani#ation. *hese are

what we call story sketch #en. *hey are %ery skilled !eo!le. *he ani#ators had nothing to do with Fantasia until &alt had okayed the story boards on the !icture and a director was assigned to it. *his !articular section, I forget who directed it, oh, yes, .a# Ar#strong. -e got the boards. *hen he sat down with the lay"out #en who laid it out, and ti#ed it, and then the ani#ators ca#e in. *he ani#ators ne%er had anything to do with the story in any for#. /ot at )isney's. 4h, occasionally &alt would say, '5et's ha%e a #eeting,' and e%erybody in the studio would be there, !ractically. But that was unusual, that was not the regular way of working.
ADAMSON

*he director was so#ebody who ne%er sat in on story conferences, then.
HUEMER

*hat's right. /ot at first. It would be handed o%er to hi#. 4r he #ight be at so#e of the %ery late ones, when we knew e$actly what we were doing and &alt liked it and we knew we were going to #ake it. *hen the director would be called in. As it #o%ed along, &alt ne%er sto!!ed i#!ro%ing it, !olishing it. *hat's the beauty of &alt's !lace. It was ne%er finished until it was !re%iewed. And e%en then it wasn't finished so#eti#es.
ADAMSON

-ow long were you on Fantasia,

HUEMER

All the way through. 5et's take for instance the Beetho%en section. &e had a recording by *oscanini to work with. *he notes are the sa#e no #atter who !lays the#, so we figured the ti#ing would be about the sa#e too. *oscanini #ay ha%e had a different inter!retation, so#e s!ots #ight be a little faster than another conductor. But that would be the only difference""funda#entally we knew what we had to deal with in ti#ing. .o we cut new records and #ade co!ies for the !eo!le who were working on it. *he grou! was di%ided into four different #o%e#ents, and the idea was to !lay the record and see what ideas you would get that would fit the #usic. &e knew what we were basically going to do, because we had decided it was going to be about 0reek #ythology. .o we had that to start with, before we e%en sat down with the records: this

was going to be a thing that had to do with 'ount 4ly#!us and fawns and all the 0reek #ythological characters, e$ce!t they would be caricatured, they would be funny in s!ots, like Bacchus. .o these four different roo#s #aybe had so#eti#es only two guys working on their !art, and they would !lay the record all day and #ake sketches to fit what they thought was best. And I would co#e in e%ery day, and we'd sit together and talk8 and I'd go into the ne$t roo# and do the sa#e. And so day by day, it would build, slowly build. 6inally after a week or two we'd ha%e so#ething u! there on the boards. &hen you !layed the record and !ointed with a !ointer at different !ictures, you could follow the flow of the story and get so#e idea of what we were trying to do. &alt wouldn't co#e in yet. It was really #y decision when it was good enough for hi# to see. ou ne%er !resented anything to &alt that you weren't awfully sure of. ou had to ha%e confidence in it yourself. 'All right,' I'd say, '5et's go with this. *his it itB' *hen &alt would co#e in and occasionally he would say no. But I #ust say that generally, es!ecially on a !icture like Fantasia which had to do with #usic and 3ust isn't e%erybody's cu! of tea, that he went along with #ost of it. -e had %ery wonderful ideas, of course, he would always ha%e the#. *hen we would noodle u! the sketches better. 4ther, better artists would gi%e us an idea of what it #ight look like in color and treat#ent. And when this was done, we had the stuff on the boards with so#e nice colored things and !layed the record, and you could actually see Fantasia right u! there. *hen a director would co#e in, and it was gi%en to hi# to #ake. But before he did that we had to go to 2hiladel!hia with .tokowski and record it in his fashion. &alt's idea was to get the benefit of the way he would inter!ret it, although he was already guided greatly by what we had !lanned in the story. &e had suggested cuts in the 2astoral .y#!hony. It re!eats itself all o%er again, I think in the second #o%e#ent. .o we didn't do that8 it would ha%e #ade it too long. 5ittle changes like that. &e went to 2hiladel!hia, to the Acade#y of 'usic, where &alt had worked out the idea of ha%ing nine se!arate sound tracks. &e had nine different co##and !osts in the base#ent of the theater, each one recording its own sound track fro# its own #ike !laced in a different s!ot in the orchestra. An interesting thing about that theater. It #ust ha%e been built so#eti#e after the (i%il &ar, and in the base#ent right underneath the audience was a big, round brick wall. Across the to! of this there were stringers or bea#s %ery #uch like the sounding board of

an instru#ent. /ow the architects' idea was that the theater was actually to be a huge instru#ent, that would re%erberate or do so#ething with the sound on account of this construction beneath the floor. :%idently it does hel! because the accoustics in the Acade#y of 'usic are su!!osed to be really great. And we had these nine tracks""that's how we recorded Fantasia. A funny incident ha!!ened when we doing the )ance of the -ours. ;e#e#ber the hi!!o!ota#us dance, .tokey said, '/ow I'# going to try to !lay this #usic funny.' &alt and I and the rest of the staff sat in the back of the theater and listened to what they were doing. And he !lays funny #usic8 you know, da"da"a"a"a, with e%erybody trying to #ake funny sounds. It was awful. And .tokey finally ra!!ed on the stand and said, '/o. 5et's forget that. I guess there's no such thing as funny #usic.' .o they !layed it straight. &alt had gone along with the e$!eri#ent of ha%ing these #ar%elous #usicians trying to be funny, blowing strange notes and whate%er they were doing. But there's no such thing as funny #usic, if anybody should ask you.
ADAMSON

&hy was it that you and the key story directors were taken to 2hiladel!hia,
HUEMER

&e had to know what was going on. *hat was one of &alt's !olicies, to kee! !eo!le in on e%erything, to kee! the !ot boiling. *his is an insight into &alt, though I'%e often wondered why we were taken to 2hiladel!hia. 4nce while they were !laying they did so#ething that I didn't think was right, considering that I knew the !icture about as well as anybody. I turned to &alt after it was o%er and said, 'I didn't like that certain whate%er it was.' And &alt said, '4h, that's all right. -e knows what he's doing u! there. 5et's not interfere,' you know. .o I 3ust ke!t #y #outh shut after that, e%en though I still think I was right. *here was nothing bad8 it was 3ust that I thought so#ething could be a little better. After all I'# sort of a half"assed #usician #yself. But I guess &alt figured we're !aying this guy IA@,@@@. Eor whate%er it wasF so let's get our #oney's worth. *hat was it. .o you #ay well ask why we went, because that's all we did, we sat there while they !layed for about fi%e days and then we ca#e ho#e.

ADAMSON

All e$!enses !aid,

HUEMER

4f course. 4nce in a while &alt would introduce #e as )ick -ue#er, 'the guy who knows all the good restaurants in 2hiladel!hia.' .i#!ly because being a New !orker, I had gone to 2hiladel!hia once in a while, and ha!!ened to know se%eral of the good restaurants like Bookbinder's. And he couldn't get o%er that, that I knew all the good restaurants in 2hiladel!hiaB 0olly, he had the habit I #entioned of cataloguing !eo!le. Any little thing like that could catalogue you. It would ne%er get out of his #ind8 there was a !lace where that ite# was stored and it would ne%er be eradicated. -e #ay be dead now, but I bet it's still thereB 4r he #ight introduce #e to so#eone and say, ''eet )ick -ue#er. -e goes to o!eras.' *hat's why I got on Fantasia, incidentally, because he knew that I went to o!eras, you see, In #y /ew ork days, I used to go to the o!era. )idn't we all, )idn't we all hear (aruso and the rest in our day, ou bet we didB
ADAMSON

*hen fro# that !oint you were a story director,

HUEMER

I ne%er ani#ated again after that. 5ike I said, I'd had it with ani#ation. I told hi# that didn't want to ani#ate any#ore. And, looking at #y ani#ation, he agreed. /o, I'# 3ust kidding.
ADAMSON

-ow #any !eo!le went to 2hiladel!hia,

HUEMER

*here was #e, Joe 0rant, and :d 2lu#b8 a guy na#ed (hilog, who was his cutter8 Bill 0arrity, who was the sound engineer8 &alt, of course. 'aybe a secretary. 'aybe so#e eletricians and #en in the sound de!art#ent. 0uys that I didn't know. 'aybe ten, twel%e. *hat's about it.
ADAMSON

)id he ha%e any trouble 3ustifying this,

HUEMER

Are you kidding, &alt s!ent the #oney. If &alt had said, '*ake this #oney and throw it out the window,' do you think anybody would +uestion hi#, '*hrow it out the windowB If &alt says so, that's rightB' It's like /a!oleon8 it's his #oney. /o, he #ade all those decisions. -e was a real, absolute #onarch there. &hy not, -e #ade it.
ADAMSON

&ho's this Joe 0rant !erson,

HUEMER

Joe 0rant and I worked together %ery closely. -e was head of the #odel de!art#ent. -e designed characters, like the Jueen in Snow (hite""that's the sort of thing he did. -e was a %ery good artist. -e was also %ery close to &alt. &alt liked his work. .o you #ight say that he was #ore than that. -e was, in a sense, an assistant director to &alt. 9ery close, on all these things. )isney finally let hi# go. Around 19?@, so#ewhere in there. &e actually were sort of a tea#8 did a lot of !ictures together. Joe was a fine artist and also a good story #an. &alt used to say that he was a good catalyst. I'# not sure he knew what that #eant, but that's what he called hi#. 4ne who #i$ed things and !eo!le together. All during the war we #ade a lot of !ictures together, like '*he 6uhrer's 6ace,' with the ras!berry in it, and ':ducation for )eath,' about how a 0er#an child is raised and beco#es a hard"core /a1i8 and ';eason and :#otion,' little figures inside a #an's head, a little ca%e#an and a !rofessor with glasses""how they fight it out in the guy's brain and who wins""all these war !ictures. And !articularly the thing called '*he /ew .!irit,' which Joe 0rant and &alt and I went to &ashington about. 'orgenthau wanted a !icture to sell war bonds, a )onald )uck, so we got the story u! and flew to &ashington and told it to hi#. And he bought it. (ongress raised hell with hi# for s!ending #oney. -e was %ery !leased when we took the boards to hi#, %ery !leased. I re#e#ber that we tried to do it in the Baby &ee#s techni+ue, li#ited ani#ation. And we actually ran Baby &ee#s for 'orgenthau, and he 3ust shook his head and said, '/o, I want the Blue 2late .!ecial.' -e wanted full ani#ation. &hich he finally got.

ADAMSON

&ere you a fan of li#ited ani#ation,

HUEMER

&ell, Joe 0rant and I in%ented it, actually, for Baby &ee#s. Baby &ee#s was our story, too. It was a se+uence in The %eluctant Dragon. But that was the first ti#e that li#ited ani#ation had e%er been done. It was done because we did it like a story, like a book turning !ages. And then !eo!le started saying, '&ell, let's do the Baby &ee#s thing,' and that's how the title was originated: Baby &ee#s ani#ation.
ADAMSON

&as there any relation between what you did for Baby &ee#s""the idea of #aybe one thing #o%ing in the whole !icture""and the short cuts you used to take for 'utt and Jeff,
HUEMER

/o, not really. *his is a deliberate atte#!t to #ake a still drawing do the 3ob of ani#ation. It was really an effect of these still drawings telling the story8 we could ha%e 3ust flo!!ed the# o%er without anything #o%ing, which has been done too. ou 3ust ha%e a little bit of #o%e#ent or a dissol%e. I wouldn't co#!are that with the old days. *he old days we didn't know any better8 this we did deliberately. &e could ha%e ani#ated this and it would ha%e been beautiful. EAlthough it was all right the way it is.F But the story suggested that kind of treat#ent, the o%er"all story. ;obert Benchley 3ust ca#e into the fil# as an actor. -e had nothing whate%er to do with the story or writing. -e 3ust read his lines8 e%en though he was !robably the best hu#orist in the country at the ti#e. &e didn't use hi# that way at all. -e wouldn't work at our !rices for one thing. And then Ale$ander &oolcott ca#e in and ga%e us a talk. &alt used to like to do that: ha%e fa#ous !eo!le co#e in and talk to us. And all he did was tell us stories. 6illed the soundstage with studio !eo!le and 3ust told the# stories, which were great. -e was a %ery interesting raconteur.
ADAMSON

&ould he !ay the !eo!le,

HUEMER

/o, they would do it of their own accord. *hey would co#e %isiting8 e%erybody in the world beat a !ath to &alt's door. )id I tell you about the first ti#e I went to work for &alt, I was sitting in his sanctu#, and we were talking8 and we were all set, had agreed on how #uch #oney and e%erything. &alt started to tell #e that he was going to #ake a cartoon"feature. 'ind you now, this was in 19DDB -e was already thinking of it. /ot only that, but it was going to be Snow (hite. -e started tell #e a little about the story, how she eats the !oison a!!le and dies, and how as she's lying there all the godda#ned little ani#als are looking in the window with tears rolling down...&alt was such a wonderful actor that #y throat started to get tight, and #y eyes began to get #oist""it was wonderful, the way he was telling it. *he idea of doing a feature was such a bra1en, daring idea to begin with, in 19DD. *hen he told #e that he #ight also so#e day like to ha%e so#e kind of an a#use#ent !ark. ou don't ha%e to belie%e this if you don't want to, but he didB /ot the way it finally turned out, but the idea, the ger#, was there. And while we were sitting and talking, in ca#e (harlie (ha!lin. I al#ost fell out of the chair, because after all (harlie (ha!lin was one of #y idols. And behind hi# was another one of #y idols, -.0. &ellsB *hey ca#e right o%er and (ha!lin %ery !roudly introduced, not &alt to &ells, but &ells to &altB '-ere's so#ebody I want you to #eet, &alt )isney, this great guy sitting here.' *hat was the feeling. It was a wonderful e$!erience8 but I don't know what they said because I left soon after. &e once had 6rank 5loyd &right there, and we had not yet finished doing the /utcracker .uite, but we had enough of it to show, so#e of the color stuff, and we ran it for hi#. And we waited for his reaction. And he shook his head and said, '*his is not it.' -e didn't like it. And he ga%e &alt a long lecture, he said, '&alt, you ha%e great !ossibilities. ou should go away so#ewhere and !urify yourself. *hen co#e back and do so#ething wonderful.' And here we thought we had done so#e thing wonderful. 'aybe we had, I don't know, but he didn't see# to think so. 4f course it didn't throw &alt a bit. -e didn't care8 he knew what he was doing. -e had Aldous -u$ley in on $lice in (onderland, the first fi%e #eetings. At which I was !resent. And at which, e%ery ti#e he

started to say anything, he ne%er got anywhere, because &alt did all the talking and had all the ideas. Actually, -u$ley didn't see# to ha%e any ideas. -e sat there with his one baleful eye Ehe's kind of blind in one eye, I think8 e%en then it had a kind of grayish effectF, and the only thing I can re#e#ber hi# saying was this: &alt was e$!laining so#ething about the entrance of so#ebody, and suddenly -u$ley !i!es u! and says, 'Ah, yes, I see thatB -ail the (on+uering ;abbit co#esB' A!ro!os of nothing, &alt 3ust grunted. *hen he disa!!eared. 6i%e #eetings or so and we ne%er saw hi# again. But that's how &alt worked, he was %ery la%ish with #aterial and #en. -u$ley was well !aid for those fi%e days, I should think. &alt was always curious about !eo!le and what they could do. And he thought he #ight be able to contribute so#ething being an :nglish#an, and knowing all about $lice in (onderland, which he !robably did. And being a sort of whi#sical guy ha%ing written "ra*e New (orld, which &alt !robably ne%er read. &alt wanted to !rogress and i#!ro%e, and he wanted to draw on the brains of the world, if he could. -e s!ared no #oney, no !ains to i#!ro%e the !roduct, e%er. -e ne%er cut corners, that I can recall. (ut salaries once, during the )e!ression. :%erybody had to take a cut, but we were willing to do that. It was a co##unity enter!rise, you know, we all had a feeling of lo%e for it""which I still do. It's a wonderful organi1ation. *here's ne%er been anything like it. /e%er will be. And &alt had art lectures. &e'd all go to lectures by good artists, whose na#es I forget now.
ADAMSON

&hat was there reaction to going into the &alt )isney studio,
HUEMER

&ell, you know, e%erybody was cra1y about &alt )isney. *here was nobody who didn't think &alt was a genius. :%erybody'd be willing to do it. )idn't e%en >hrushche% want to go to )isneyland. :%erybodyB
ADAMSON

&hen you first started working and were ani#ating, was he going to the care and e$!ense of #aking !encil tests and fil#ing the# for .illy .y#!hony cartoons,
HUEMER

I told you that on the outside we all thought that he had a secret !rocess, If anything that was it. -e #ade !encil tests when nobody else #ade the#. -e was the first guy to do that. -e'd !hotogra!h the thing in negati%e and we ran the negati%e which would be white on black, a chea! thing to do. *here was no use going to a !rint because you threw it away when you were through. And then we ran it on a little #o%ieola, in a roo# about four feet s+uare which we called the .weat Bo$, a!!ro!riately enough. &e didn't ha%e any !ro3ectors. *here was a #ain !ro3ector down on .oundstage 4ne, I think, but we had one #o%ieola, the old"fashioned one with the little round glass, not the big s+uare field like you ha%e now. A little thing about four inches round.
ADAMSON

&hat could you tell fro# that,

HUEMER

&ell, you saw a s+uare !icture inside when you looked through the round !art. ou saw it about si$, se%en inches long.
ADAMSON

4ne !erson at a ti#e,

HUEMER

/o, two !eo!le could see. &alt would stand behind you and you would run the stuff and %ery enough tear it. ou know these are !retty crude #achines: ;rrr!B *here'd go the testB ou'd #ake a loo! of the action and you'd kee! running that and study it. And how could you go wrong, ou'd see #istakes which other !eo!le couldn't see because they ani#ated and !ut it on the screen, and there it was, they were stuck with it. But here we could take all the bugs out or change it. And then we would asse#ble the !encil tests. on a reel so that we'd ha%e the whole !icture in negati%e white lines on black, and run it with sound. .o you ne%er went to inking and !ainting until the !encil tests were e$actly the way you

wanted the#. /or did you clean u! a rough !encil test until then. .o#eti#es it looked like a bunch of hay, so#e guys ani#ated so roughly. 6ergie had %ery rough !encil tests""like a haystack with beautiful #o%e#ent, 3ust beautiful. *hat had to be cleaned u!, then it was gi%en to the inker. *he ani#ator worked out the action then handed the tings o%er to an assistant to !ut in the in"betweens. ou'd clean u! your !rinci!al !oses then the in"betweener would #ake neat ones in between. *hen that was !hotogra!hed, as co#!lete as it e%er would be, e$ce!t it was cleaner later. *hen it would go to the inker. &alt was the first guy to work out that syste#.
ADAMSON

-ow often were things changed,

HUEMER

4h, +uite a lot. :%ery ti#e you took a test in it would ha%e so#e changes. I doubt if I e%er did anything that I recall went right through. 4r anybody else for that #atter.
ADAMSON

)id that annoy you, to ha%e to change e%erything,

HUEMER

&hy should it, &e all wanted the sa#e thing, we wanted great !ictures. /o, this was a good feeling, nobody took offense at the slightest criticis#. &e asked for it, we'd go to &alt and say, '&alt, in the last !icture, I wasn't satisfied with so#ething. &hat was wrong,' And he would try to tell you...we had that interest in our !roduct. It was like a crusade to do the best, and it ne%er see#ed good enough. I know we were %ery a#bitious in doing things like The )oddess o Spring, which was a co#!lete failure. It was all !eo!le, the 0recian fable of 2erso!hone and 2luto, you know the story of the <nderworld and going to -ades and all that 3a11. And the !icture was really a hell of a !icture without being %ery good. It was one of our #ore resounding failures. *his was long before Snow (hite. *his was one of the last things I worked on as an ani#ator""a .illy .y#!hony. It's !robably still around.

4ne ti#e I resented the fact that so#e inker Ewho was a %ery skillful !erson in her own way, of course, and I couldn't do inking if I triedF would take #y drawing and go o%er the lines, so that when it was done it was her work and not #y original drawing. I stewed o%er that, and I thought, '&hy can't this be done in so#e !hotogra!hic !rocess,' I knew nothing of !hotogra!hy, #ind you. *o this day I don't, but it occured to #e this would be the only way it could be done. &hy not shoot each drawing that you ha%e cleaned u! and then it's your drawing on the cell, and then ha%e the# !rint that thing the way they would if so#ebody had inked it. I had no idea whether this could be done, and !robably it couldn't at the ti#e. But I thought the idea was right and I went to &alt with it and his answer was no. 6or one thing we didn't know how it could be done8 but if you !ut so#e genius like Iwerks on it !erha!s it could ha%e been worked out. But he said, ':%en if it could be done, it wouldn't be desireable because what ha!!ens when !eo!le ink is that it reduces the !ictures to all looking the sa#e, which is good. &hereas if you !hotogra!hed the actual drawing of each ani#ator, it would all be different, because e%erybody has a different !encil techni+ue,' which they did. And he didn't think that was desireable. .o the thing was dro!!ed right there. *his was way back in 19D?, I think, when I first thought of it. 2robably a lot of !eo!le did. But I resented the fact that I would really work to #ake nice !encil drawings, Ethey were really %ery nice8 you could fra#e the# I su!!ose, not K3ustL #ine but anybody'sBF, and then along ca#e so#e gal and went !hhtB with a lightning stroke and !hhtB took all the guts out of the line and the shading and the feeling of it. *hat's what #ade #e think of doing it the other way. 4f course the Mero$ is a different !rocess which, as you know, rearranges the #olecules or so#ething, and it's not actual !hotogra!hy. In effect it takes your e$act line and so it transfers the sa#e %itality to the screen. I think it's tre#endous. In The +,,, Dalmatians, he K&altL used it entirely for the first ti#e. *hey do it all the ti#e now, in e%erything.
ADAMSON

-ow long had you had this feeling about inkers,

HUEMER

&ell, I'd had the feeling since we sto!!ed inking our own stuff on !a!er. &hat you drew in those days you saw on the screen. And the

#inute you went to working with backed"u! celluloids, why then you lost contact with the actual working of the artist. .o with #e it dates fro# about there. It really is a ble#ish in Snow (hite, the fact that when they ink they lose a certain a#ount of accuracy, and when you ha%e a slow #otion you get a tre#bling. /aturally this ha!!ens because you #ay !ut the line !erfectly in between on your !encil drawings, but when an inker co#es along and de%iates she can't !ossibly ha%e what you !ut there, she de%iates 3ust enough. In Snow (hite, in the girl's face, you see this ha!!en. It shi##ers, whereas you don't get that nowadays with Mero$. 4f course, the in" betweeners are da#n well certain to !ut their line !erfectly in between, and it stays there, nobody touches it, nobody inks o%er and #o%es it a little bit. :%en a thousandth of an inch #ay #ake a difference in a %ery close action. .o that's another thing that I thought was so terrible about ani#ation in the older days, that you got this shi##ering in a close action. &hich is far fro# ideal if you want to be a !erfectionist about it, Kand that'sL what we tried to be.

1.4. TAPE NUMBER II: Side T!", (Se(&e)*e+ 1,, 1968

HUEMER

/ow, we'll talk about )isney and one of his weaknesses which I consider to be the fact that he was ne%er really able to 3udge #en too well. -e had a habit of taking any gi%en indi%idual and !utting hi# into an arbitrary 3ob, gi%ing hi# a title and e$!ecting hi# to do the 3ob. &alt #ade #ost of the decisions at the studio. -e was his own best story #an. -e was his own best editor. -e was, in a sense, his own best ani#ator, because at first he taught us all how to ani#ate. But too often, in #y o!inion, he would these !osts with #en who were inca!able. 6or the %ery reason !erha!s that it didn't #atter. In the last analysis he did it 3ust as I said. It re#ains to be seen, howe%er, now that &alt's been dead these two years, whether this !olicy is going to be beneficial to the studio. -as he left anyone who can fill the enor#ous %acancy that re#ains behind hi#, &hen we were stuck we'd turn to &alt and he'd ha%e so#e wonderful o!inion. -e'd a!!ly his 'instant genius' to the thing. And now he's not here and nobody e$actly fill in. -o!efully so#ebody #ay arise, or so#e co#bination of #en, I don't know...

-e was always working on story. -e was fore%er !icking your brain, e%en if you were at a social affair with hi# of so#ething. Anything you said he'd be listening to, cocking his ear, you know, and re#e#bering e%erything you said with that #ar%elous brain that ne%er forgot a thing. /ot a single thingB *his I %enture to guess was the core of his genius, this wonderful #e#ory. And, of course, his way of reaching back into that #e#ory and !icking out things and a!!lying the# right to the heart of any sub3ect. -e could go right to the nub of the !roble#, no #atter what it was. :%en if it was the design of a unifor# for the e#!loyees at )isneyland, he would ha%e an o!inion on it. /othing was too s#all for hi# to %enture an o!inion on and his was generally the best one. 4h, #aybe once out of fifty ti#es so#ebody else would ha%e a better one""generally it was his. *hat was #y boss.
ADAMSON

&hat other ani#ators did you like,

HUEMER

&ell, I liked e%erything that *e$ A%ery did. And I like anything that (huck Jones e%er did. 4r anything 6releng e%er did. *hese guys are geniuses, in their own substantial way. And I e+uate the# with &ard >i#ball in our studio, who I think is a little old cock"eyed, ring"tailed genius ty!e also. And 'ilt >ahl.
ADAMSON

-ow about the *o# and Jerry things,

HUEMER

Juite good. But not as good, to #e, as these others I #entioned. And then there's )ick &illia#s who in #y o!inion co#es closest to creating a !oetic feeling in ani#ation. )ick is a (anadian who works in :ngland.
ADAMSON

&hat did you think of the <2A cartoons,

HUEMER

I considered the# %ery cle%er. *hey were sort of what was called in those days 'way out.' And there ani#ation was also #ore li#ited...it

wasn't as thorough as )isney's, as lifelike. It was the antithesis of )isney. In other words I think they were both cutting corners and doing i#!ressionistic ani#ation. But they had so#e good !ictures8 '0erald 'cBoingBoing' was a great story. *he original was by )oc .euss who by the way was on the )isney staff briefly during the war. )oc .euss' story was fool!roof. And when they did 'agoo they had a good %oice to base it on.
ADAMSON

*hat was Ji# Backus.

HUEMER

*hat's right. *hey had an unusual %oice to start with. &hen you ha%e a solid thing like that you're half@ay ho#e. 5ike when you ha%e )onald )uck's %oice, you know, you're there. All things being e+ual you're bound to ha%e a !retty good !icture. And Backus certainly hel!ed to #ake 'agoo. *hey had so#e %ery good ani#ators there, of course. -ubley was one, and Art Babbit, too. I didn't ha%e anything at all to do with <2A8 I 3ust a!!ro%ed of it fro# a distance.
ADAMSON

-ubley worked at )isney's for a while, didn't he, -e was on Fantasia, wasn't he,
HUEMER

es. Juiet sort of guy, see#ed to be. &ith a great interest in social #atters, socialistic, I #ean. -e was considered to be a little to the left, which in those days we were so#ewhat shocked at. /owadays who isn't a little liberal. But in those daysH wellB &alt you know was definitely to the right. -e couldn't abide those blokes who were tinged with a little !ink.
ADAMSON

-e was %ery concerned about the !olitical o!inions of his e#!loyees,

HUEMER

es, he was. ;e#e#ber when this writer was running for the go%ernorshi! of (alifornia, <!ton .inclair, -e had a new idea, a

sort of socialistic share"the"wealth sche#e. I re#e#ber &alt had 0unther 5essing gi%e a talk to the staff to try and sway us to %ote against <!ton .inclair. 4ne thing about &alt though. ;egardless of !olitical o!inions or religious con%ictions or whate%er, his first consideration was what a !erson could contribute to the studio and the !roduct. -e was always willing to gi%e the benefit of the doubt, and %ery liberal with those who# he e#!loyed. I think he would ha%e used the )e%il hi#self if he were a great ani#ator. -e had what !ractically a#ounted to a #ild 'entertain#ent #ono#ania.' And he rewarded the good workers. In '*he &alt1 of the 6lowers' we used s!ecial eels that had a tooth or roughness to the#, and when we worked the color o%er that surface it ga%e the effect of !astel. If you look at the fil#, ne$t ti#e you see it, see if you don't get the feeling of !astel drawings in #otion. :l#er 2lu##er did the story sketches, black !a!er with !astel which ga%e a %ery grainy effect. ou can tell it'd !astel and not flat water color or !aint. &alt %ery #uch wanted to retain that effect on the screen, so they cast around till they could get a cel with a rough surface. It looks 3ust like !astel in o!eration. A %ery lo%ely effect and another first for )isney.
ADAMSON

)id this co#e u! in the story conferences,

HUEMER

.o#eti#es, so#eti#es not. &alt would say, '&e'%e got a certain look to these story sketches, a !astel look. It's good. -ow can we retain it,' as #uch as saying, '*hat's an order,' and so#ebody would go ahead and work it out. &alt, of course, had other things to do, and whoe%er was assigned to it would 3olly well work it out. &alt would lea%e it in your la!, like he did to #e in the dinosaur se+uence in '*he ;ite of .!ring.' After a #eeting which wasn't too satisfactory, he said, '&ell, I lea%e it in your la!, )ick. &ork it outB' And it was work it out and no e$cuses. .o I worked it out. ou can i#agine that there's nothing to start with, e$ce!t for the #usic, only blank boards and a lot of dinosaurs. &hat do they do, &hat does this #usic suggest to you, It suggests a fight. *his wailing #usic suggests the trek of the dinosaurs seeking water fro# the dried land where the #ountains ha%e risen and the earth has dried, the swa#!s drained....they ha%e to go find water. .tra%insky's

#usic suggested this eerie, #ournful scene of staggering through the swirling dust. ou see so#e fall dead and others struggle on. *hey beco#e silhouettes in the #urk. &e en%isuali1e their e$tinction to the strains of the #usic.
ADAMSON

&hat basis did you work this out on, )id you do any research as far as constructing or creating the se+uence,
HUEMER

4f course. &e had to get books on dinosaurs and learn all about the# and how to draw the#, according to authorities. Bill .tearner was %ery good at drawing these things. -e #ade all the ins!irational drawings. 2articularly i#!ressi%e, I re#e#ber, besides the dinosaur stuff, was the for#ation of the earth where the red" dot crust is bubbling and %olcanoes o%erflow and la%a runs down the #ountain sides into the sea and the hissing stea# swirls u!. .tearner was %ery good at #aking those original sketches, great i#!ressi%e drawings in !astel where you could feel the heat. It was re#arkable how those directors who followed u! were able to du!licate what those story drawings looked like. And it was a case of they 3olly well had better, because &alt said, '*hat's what they should look like8 this is great, this is the feeling I want.'
ADAMSON

Actually he did the '.orcerer's A!!rentice' se+uence before he actually got the idea for the whole feature, didn't he,
HUEMER

es, +uite a while before.

ADAMSON

&as it finished,
HUEMER

It was all finished, in the can.

ADAMSON

Inked and !ainted and no idea what to do with it,

HUEMER

*he idea, as far as I know, for the whole feature hadn't been thought of yet. *hat is #aking a whole feature based on the K#usicalL classics. :%idently after seeing '*he .orcerer' &alt thought, '&ell, why not, If this is so good, let's take other great #usic and the sa#e treat#ent.' .o we did it.
ADAMSON

ou didn't work on '*he .orcerer's A!!rentice,'

HUEMER

/o. Incidentally, it was a beautiful lay"out 3ob done by *o# (odrick, on who# I !in #uch of the success of that seg#ent. *hat's only #y !ersonal o!inion, but I re#e#ber seeing thu#bnail storyboards of the whole thing where you could go through the whole thing fit to the #usic and al#ost get the effect of KfullL ani#ation. Beautiful 3ob.
ADAMSON

*he whole '.orcerer's A!!rentice' se+uence,

HUEMER

es, in color, e%en. It was one of the nicest 3obs I'd seen u! to then. It was !roduced by 2erce 2earce, who dro!!ed dead of a heart attack in 5ondon in 19??.
ADAMSON

ou #ean you !in the whole...

HUEMER

&ell, no, I don't intend to !in all the glory on (odrick. *here were good ani#ators on it. 6rank *ho#as was on it8 he's still one of )isney's to! ani#ators.
ADAMSON

*ell #e so#ething about the research you had to do for the dinosaur se+uence, and the #icrosco!ic organis#s,

HUEMER

&ell, there's nothing to tell, you can find all that #aterial in books.
ADAMSON

)id you do that,

HUEMER

es, that was !art of #y 3ob, and the staff's. &e were also influenced a great deal by a fellow na#ed >night, >"/"I"0"-"*, who illustrated these things that were issued by the <nion 4il (o#!any, so#e gi%eaway gi##ick at gas stations. ou #ay ha%e seen the#"" we were greatly indebted to those. .tearner and a guy na#ed 'a3or were the fellows who did a lot of the !reli#inary sketches. *hese ins!irational sketches were terribly i#!ortant. In any !icture, you can't o%eresti#ate the#. And again when we had the storyboards u!, you could !lay the #usic and get the sense of the whole !icture right there. It was u! to the ani#ator and the director then to !ut the right weight and feeling into the dinosaurs. In the dinosaur fight, we ani#ated the# as if they were creatures ca!able of !retty fast #o%e#ent. As a #atter of fact, #aybe they weren't. I found that out later, but e%en so it's con3ectural, isn't it, Being so hea%y and unwieldy a dinosaur fight was !robably like two turtles battling. &e didn't know and we had to do it all in the fra#ework established by the #usic. And fro# the chords and #usical configurations we got lightning"like thrusts or lunges. &e didn't care too #uch about the scientific end of it8 we were being entertaining.
ADAMSON

&ell, the !rogra# #entions all these !eo!le, Andrews and Julian -u$ley and others. &hat did they do, &hat was their function,
HUEMER

*hey ne%er ca#e to the studio if that's what you #ean.

ADAMSON

It Kthe !rogra#L clai#s they were there and saw you through the whole !roduction.

HUEMER

I didn't see the#B If the !rogra# says that, I ne%er read it.
ADAMSON

It says they were associates and hel!ed you check scientific accuracy, your authenticity.
HUEMER

&ell, #aybe so#ebody asked the#. 'aybe &alt did. I wasn't there when it ha!!ened. It wasn't too i#!ortant once we had the basic facts in hand. Belie%e #e, it wasn't i#!ortant at all.
ADAMSON

.o as far as research goes you 3ust""what had been written about the# in books,
HUEMER

.ure, that's right. And that was sur!risingly little.

ADAMSON

And it's all s!eculation, right,

HUEMER

4h, of course. *here were certain things: we could tell the sha!e and the si1e !retty well, because they'%e !ut bones together.
ADAMSON

-ow did you know that they were re!tiles, *hat they had oily skin,
HUEMER

6ro# !etrified or ossified or whate%er ha!!ens re#nants of skin. 'any i#!ressions in stone of skin ha%e been found.
ADAMSON

Another thing they #ention in the !rogra# are the s!ecial effect in '*he /utcracker .uite.'
HUEMER

*hey used #ulti"!lane. But #ulti"!lane was not an effect that we hadn't used before, #any ti#es.
ADAMSON

*his 2astoral .y#!hony was your idea,

HUEMER

)id I tell you about how we were going to use so#ething called 2ierne fro# a 6rench #usical co#edy or o!eretta called '(ydalese et le (he%re 2ied.' It was a nu#ber called the ':ntrance of the 5ittle 6auns.' It only ran three #inutes and we had a 9ictor record of it. And that's what ga%e us the idea of using 0reek #ythology and its creatures, 6auns and (entaurs Efro# which we e%ol%ed (entaurettesF and all the 2antheology. Joe 0rant and I worked with it +uite a while, but we couldn't find any %isual contact. It was %ery strange #usic. If you e%er get a hold of it and !lay it, you'll lo%e it I'# sure. It goes like this...K-ue#er hu##ed the tuneL...and it bounces along without sto!!ing, ne%er a !ause or slowdown. .o it didn't gi%e us any kind of a handle or contrasting !hraseology. ou ha%e to ha%e !hrases to work with when you trans!ose so#ething fro# #usic to ani#ation. ou'%e got to ha%e resting !oints, in other words, and we found none. -is #usic would 3ust go straight ahead. &e couldn't sto! it, we couldn't cut it, and here co#e the fauns, and here co#e the (entaurs, and here co#es Jo%e throwing thunderbolts...we couldn't find a !lace to !ut all this fine !ictorial #aterial in. .o Joe and I looked around for another !iece of #usic and decided on Beetho%en, the 2astoral .y#!hony, which is about so#eone's feelings on their 3ourney into the country, and other bucolic #atters. .o we went ahead and laid it out and !resented it to &alt and he went along with it. But .tokowski didn't like it at all. -e said, 'Beetho%en didn't #ean this, he #eant hu#an reactions and their salubrious feelings.' But so#ehow we brushed aside his ob3ections and went ahead. .o that's how that ca#e about. And we'%e been critici1ed for it, as you #ay ha%e heard, in re%iews and such.
ADAMSON

-ow co#e,
HUEMER

&ell, 3ust as .tokowski thought, so#e didn't consider our treat#ent a!!ro!riate. Although I still do, and it's a fait acco#!li, it's finished.
ADAMSON

At what !oint were the ins!irational drawings done,

HUEMER

&e decided to do the '5ittle 6auns' which suggests fauns, not deer fawns, but little #en half"goats with horns. 2an was a faun, wasn't he, .o this suggested a story"line. Actually the story of (ydalese has so#ething to do with 2an or so#e other #ythical creature who gets #i$ed u! with a fe#ale hu#an. I ne%er saw the o!eretta. &e assu#ed a lot and that ga%e us a cast of creatures. Bacchus, 'iner%a, and Ju!iter, and all those other #inor characters, !lus centaurs and centaurettes, and e%en a little colored centaurette, and (u!ids, of course. .o we had asse#bled a cast with no !lace to go if we dro!!ed the idea of (ydalese entirely. .o they went into Beetho%en. 2ersonally I like it8 I'# sticking with it. ' en".id the 0reat 'agician' Kin '*he .orcerer's A!!rectice'L was )isney's na#e s!elled backwards. )ee#s *aylor calls hi# that in his introduction to the '.orcerer's A!!rentice.' *he characters in '/ight on Bald 'ountain' were carefully laid out by character #odel #en, as to their looks and their dance, it was worked out in li%e action as #any of the things at the studio were. )id you know that .now &hite, for instance, was all acted out first by 'ar3orie Belcher with a costu#e on,
ADAMSON

4n the ;otasco!e...
HUEMER

4n the ;otasco!e, right. &ell, the dancing ghouls in 'Bare 'ountain' was a si#ilar o!eration.
ADAMSON

-ow did they do that, Bring in little gre#lins,

HUEMER

.i1e has nothing to do with it. ou can reduce it.

ADAMSON

I #ean were these !eo!le dressed in gre#lin suits,

HUEMER

&hat they looked like wasn't i#!ortant either. All we were after was the li%e action, and you could take hu#an li%e action and #ake a !ig out of it if you wanted to. ou wanted the feeling and flow of the action, the ti#ing and s!acing of the #o%e#ent which is contained in li%e action. .ince you take drawings out here and there, they didn't ha%e to look like gre#lins. In the )ance of the -ours we %ery carefully laid out the whole thing with dancing girls, the whole ballet with ballerinas in tutus, ballet sli!!ers, the whole thing. Joyce (ole was the ballet #aster. And then this was handed o%er to the ani#ator and where there was a girl he drew a hi!!o or an ostrich. .o this is the sa#e thing, you see, it doesn't #atter what the !erson looks like, you can #ake a gre#lin, a turtle, and eagle, anything out of hi#. Another thing: the si1e of the head was always enlarged in hu#an figures, because the !ro!ortion of the hu#an head to the body is not a cartoon !ro!ortion. And the whole figure was si#!lified, of course. *o #y #ind the whole show was stolen by the e%il character on to! of the #ountain, the )e%il who su##ons e%erybody u! to his re%el, dead !eo!le fro# the #oats, ghosts fro# the gra%eyard. ou en3oy KwatchingL the #ischie%ous character #ore. .o it was kind of an anticli#a$ when we ca#e to the A%e 'aria at the end of it. Actually there was a thing that we consider a #istake in A%e 'aria. *here's one !oint where a line of little characters are walking along carrying what look like targets. But it's not a target, it's 3ust a badly drawn torch with the illu#ination fro# the fla#e s!reading out. It's still there8 so let's say it's a styli1ed torch and e$cuse it that way.
ADAMSON

&hat about the *occata and 6ugue, 'r. -ue#er,

HUEMER

I don't think we were +uite ready for it, #yself. I think it's easily the weakest thing in Fantasia, I don't know how you feel about it.

/ot #usically, #usically it's great. .tokowski's arrange#ent is beautiful. But to #e it's a little dinky. All the little things dancing around, it isn't cle%er or i#aginati%e enough to be a good inter!retation.
ADAMSON

&hy do you think you would do it better today,

HUEMER

*hat's a good +uestion. ou'd ha%e to think %ery carefully about what to do, get a different inter!retation of it.
ADAMSON

)o you think !eo!le are #ore ready for that today,

HUEMER

es, I do. I think abstract stuff is done #ore today...and real well. *hat was !robably the first ti#e it had been done in the big ti#e so to s!eak. It has been done in a s#all way by 6ischinger. -e ca#e to the studio to work on it at first, and didn't last %ery long, because what he contributed were these little things dancing dinkily. *he sort of thing he had been doing. It was not the thing for us to do. &e had to be abo%e little dinky things dancing.
ADAMSON

*his is 6ischinger's design,

HUEMER

6ischinger was a contributor, he couldn't do it all be hi#self. -e worked at his board and he drew what he thought was called for. *hen it was taken and finished by other !eo!le. *he director, .a# Ar#strong, then took the #usic and #ade it #ore his own, with big church windows rising u!, 0othic things and sha!es the #usic see#ed to suggest and all the other fantasies of inter!retation.
ADAMSON

But it was 6ischinger's design, basically,

HUEMER

/o. -e started the !ro3ect, and so#e fla%or of it was retained. But not #uch really. I wouldn't say he do#inated it at all. 6ar fro# it. I'%e ne%er gi%en it that #uch thought since, but I'# sure we could co#e u! with so#ething that would benefit and honor the #usic a lot #ore than that treat#ent did. It was fairly critici1ed, too. I saw the thing ten years ago and it's, the one thing that #ade #e scrounge down in #y seat when it ca#e along. But for its day, I su!!ose it was ahead of its ti#e in a way.
ADAMSON

)id A%e 'aria see# a let down to you then,

HUEMER

/o, not generally. It was &alt's idea to !ortray the triu#!hant return of holiness and sanity after a night of orgy and e%il. *hat's a good thought, still good, I think. 2erha!s it was a let down !ictorially but not #usically. Because after all the e$cite#ent and horror that you heard and saw on Bald 'ountain, the clashing noise of that really e%il #usic, it was a relief to co#e to so#ething soothing and beautiful. *he #usic was great but I don't think we did a good 3ob on that A%e 'aria...a beautiful 3ob on Bald 'ountain though. .!eaking of '*he ;ite of .!ring,' in #y o!inion, dinosaurs will ne%er again be re!resented that well on the screen again. It was a really !erfect 3ob of ani#ation, the #ood, the coloring, e%erything. I don't think that Bald 'ountain could e%er be done as well either. And also #ost of the /utcracker .uite is, I think, !erfect. And there are things in Beetho%en which are great, like the stor# se+uence which I consider %ery good. I don't !articularly care for so#e !arts of it such as the drunken Bacchus stuff. And '*he )ance of the -ours' is un+uestionably a classic.
ADAMSON

)o you think that Fantasia will e%er be de throned fro# the su##it of ani#ation,
HUEMER

I don't think anyone could afford it again. *hings are too costly now, a lot of things will !robably ne%er be done after the )isney

era. I %enture to say that a hundred years fro# now whoe%er hears this #ay back #e u! in saying that they still will not ha%e e+ualed so#e of these bits of ani#ation which )isney fostered. 4n the other hand, you ne%er know, #aybe they will. /owadays, it's #ostly a #atter of econo#ics.
ADAMSON

Fantasia wasn't...let's say as !rofitable as it should ha%e been, was it,

HUEMER

/o, it didn't start off with #uch of a bang, but since then it has recou!ed. Anyway it's a feather in &alt's ca!8 it's one of his great !ictures.
ADAMSON

Artistically. But didn't he ha%e a financial !roble# at the ti#e,

HUEMER

es, after that there were tight ti#es for hi#.

ADAMSON

After he s!ent all that #oney and failed to #ake it back.

HUEMER

I belie%e that, u! to the beginning of the war, &alt was in serious financial difficulties. &hen the war ca#e along, he got a lot of war contracts, cost !lus or whate%er the syste# was. And that ke!t hi# handily afloat. But I do belie%e he would ha%e been in %ery serious trouble if the war hadn't co#e along when it did. *hen he had another crisis after the war, around the ti#e of Cinderella when he said at a #eeting, 'Boys, ifCinderella doesn't #ake it, we're throughB' 2... It went. Cinderella was a success.
ADAMSON

)o you still feel that this was the su##it of ani#ation,

HUEMER

-ow can you arbitrarily say that, )e!ends. If you look at anyone of his !ictures, it will contain so#ething fine. :%erybody has his own )isney fa%orite. ou can't get away fro# the fact that Snow (hite has a tre#endous i#!act e%en today. :%en with all its 3ittery ani#ation in the close"u!s. Snow (hite is a great !icture8 and if all of &alt's !ictures were to be destroyed e$ce!t one, I'd ha%e a hard ti#e answering that. I #ight %ery well say Snow (hite. :#otionally it's great, a !erfect storyB *oo bad they didn't ha%e Mero$ then.
ADAMSON

&here's the story that Dumbo co#es fro#,

HUEMER

I ne%er saw it, but they say it was on a little stri! that was gi%en away on a cereal bo$. 4r #aybe it was e%en !rinted on the outside, I don't know. But it had the basic ele#ents of the story: the little ele!hant who had big ears, was #ade fun of, learned to fly, and was redee#ed. All in 3ust a few !anels. &ell, we took it fro# there, had a few story #eetings, then Joe 0rant and I wrote it u! a cha!ter at a ti#e and sub#itted it to &alt. -e used to co#e down and say, '*hat's co#ing along good. &e'll #ake itB' &e got sketch #en and story #en and went to work and !ut together what we call a 5eica reel. )id you e%er run into that before,
ADAMSON

5eica,
HUEMER

A 5eica reel was a way of !resenting a storyboard with the indi%idual !ictures on fil#stri! that was run through a 5eica !ro3ector. ou'd fli! o%er a !icture and talk about it, then fli! o%er the ne$t. ou could %isuali1e the story +uite well. (o#e to think of it, we did so#e of Fantasia that way, but I don't think they use it any #ore.
ADAMSON

.o you did sketches...

HUEMER

&hich were !hotogra!hed onto D?## fil#. '-ere )u#bo co#es in...clickB...and there's his #other...clickB...and she !icks hi# u! ...clickB...and the ring#aster enters,' and so on.
ADAMSON

And you show these to who#,

HUEMER

*o &alt. *his was how we often held a story #eeting. .o#eti#es we had rough 5eica reels in !encil, and later we would fil# the# out and #ake a color reel. And you al#ost ha%e the feeling of an ani#ated reel, a full scene.
ADAMSON

&hen you first got Dumbo, what for# was it in,

HUEMER

.o#ebody had started working on it and there were +uite a few sketches that I re#e#ber, but no storyboards yet. 'ostly talk, getting together with &alt, and taking notes, and studying the#. Dumbo was !ut aside a while to concentrate on another !icture, I su!!ose, then Joe 0rant and I !icked it u!.
ADAMSON

4n your own initiati%e,

HUEMER

es, we were allowed to, e%en encouraged by &alt: '.ee what you can get.' -e was %ery good about that. .o#eti#es, you didn't know, but two or three other guys #ight ha%e been assigned to the sa#e thing. &alt had a trick of !itting #en against each other that way8 he lo%ed that kind of conflict. In fact, it annoyed hi# when #en got along together too well. -e thought ri%alry was good, it #ade s!arks, it sti#ulated !eo!le.
ADAMSON

-ow long was this %ersion that you and Joe 0rant did together,
HUEMER

It was about that thick. K-ue#er indicated half and inch with his two fingers.L &ith e$tra long !a!ers, great big long ones. It has all the basic ele#ents. /ot that we had #ade the# all u!8 so#e had been talked about.
ADAMSON

-ow closely did it stick to this story when you finally did it,
HUEMER

&ell, nothing e%er sticks closely. A !icture's a thing that grows like a snowball. :%erybody adds to it, the director, the ani#ator. And then when it's done, it can still be added too. .o it's hard to say. After &alt had read the article in Time 'aga1ine in 1971 about Dumbo, he #et Joe 0rant and #yself in the lot and indicated his dis!leasure. -e didn't think it was a %ery good article, not !articularly flattering to hi#. As he turned away he said, '&hat the hell, didn't ha%e anything to do with the !icture,' which is what the write"u! sounds like I #ust ad#it. But in a sense it was !artly true, he didn't ha%e as #uch to do with it as he did with his other !ictures. And so#eti#es his withdrawal fro# a !icture didn't work out too well. 6or instance, he didn't ha%e #uch to do with Sleeping "eaut#, and to #e it is one of our !oorest !ictures #ostly for that reason.
ADAMSON

&hy didn't he,

HUEMER

-e couldn't get interested in it. *hat's #y o!inion, again. 4h, he didn't stay away entirely, no #ore than he did with Dumbo. -e was down in .outh A#erica while Dumbo was being #ade. But, no, he couldn't war# u! to Sleeping "eaut#8 neither can I for that #atter, still can't. I think it's an e$tre#ely %a!id !icture.
ADAMSON

&hy was it done if he couldn't war# u! to it,

HUEMER

&ell, a lot of reasons. I #ean you'%e got a staff to kee! busy. ou'%e got to do so#ething. And once they were under way, no one cared to think that it would turn out all that ineffectual. *here's always the eternal ho!e that it'll be great. *hat's inherent in e%erything you do. &hat they did on that !icture, which was wrong I think, was that the ani#ators got it into their heads that the a!!earance of the characters was so i#!ortant. I re#e#ber one of the#, it was 'ark )a%is, !ointing out that they had a whole new conce!t of design on these characters, and if you study so#e of the drawings which are in the book I lent you, notice the cris!ness or designed +uality of her hair or of the dra!ery. -ow it falls and curls this way, all %ery carefully worked out. *hey thought this was i#!ortant which in its own way it was. But what was #ore i#!ortant was that they didn't ha%e a good story. I #ean they didn't ha%e one with the guts that it should ha%e, or heart a!!eal or no%elty or co#edy. Again, #y o!inion.
ADAMSON

-ow were the songs co#bined with the story, )id you include in your original syno!sis, !laces where songs #ight go and what sort of songs they #ight be,
HUEMER

I can re#e#ber one !articularly, and that was in the 2ink :le!hant se+uence. *hat feeling is written in there, of a #usical night#are. /ed &ashington wrote the lyrics, and he would be in on the story #eetings and would !resent his songs, you know, he'd ta! the# out. &alt didn't ha%e +uite the gras! of #usic that he had of other things. *hat was one !lace where he was so#ewhat at the #ercy of his #usicians and lyric writers. If there was a !oor lyric, de couldn't say, '&ell, why don't we ha%e so"and"so,' because he wasn't a great !oet or rhy#ester, which it takes to be a lyricist, I guess. /e%ertheless, it was he who ca#e u! with the line: 'It's a Ni!!edy" doo"dah )ay,' which beca#e a hit in '.ong of the .outh.' But generally he 3ust okayed Eor didn't okayF a lyric or #elody. A songwriter would #ostly !ut his own work through 3ust about the way he had written it. But he had to #ake it fit, which could always be done, of course. I'%e done that sort of thing #yself, on occasion. &e would say, '5et's write a song...a #other song for when she's chained u! and )u#bo co#es to %isit her.' &ell, naturally there's

so#e heart"breaking ty!e of lyric indicated, and /ed &ashington ca#e u! with 'Baby #ine don't you cry...' A heartbreaker.
ADAMSON

And the o!ening scene, that stork,

HUEMER

es. It was suggested in a story #eeting that we would show the stork with the baby looking for 'rs. )u#bo KJu#boL to deli%er it to, and we thought, '&hy not ha%e a song to set u! the stork on his #ission.' .o /ed &ashington ca#e u! with '5ook out for 'r. .tork that funny little cha!...he'll co#e along and dro! a baby in your la!.' and so forth.
ADAMSON

&hy did the song on the stork ha%e one idea, which was look out for the stork, and yet what was shown was a co#!letely different idea: e%eryone's !leased as !unchB,
HUEMER

4h, that doesn't #atter. A lyric like that is at#os!heric. It gi%es you a co#ic slant on the stork and his business, and also the story !oint""the co#ing of )u#bo. *here are so#e songs which are largely !roduction songs, telling a story or #aking a !oint, like '&hen I .ee an :le!hant 6ly' which loses a great deal out of conte$t. It ad%anced the story8 that's what we call a !roduction song. &hereas the stork nu#ber was 3ust a nice o!ening the#e with stor# and stork flying, it ga%e you a nice feeling. &e often did that. &e were being entertaining.
ADAMSON

*he fact that the two #oods conflicted...

HUEMER

I don't think they did. ou're the first to say that. ou'%e been analy1ing it too #uch. 5isten to the rest of the words: ' ou #ay be !oor or rich...it doesn't #atter which #illionaires get !airs like the butcher or the baker.' It's 3ust a song about so#ebody going to deli%er a baby. '-e'll find you in (hina or he'll go to (ounty (ork, so you better look out for 'r. .torkB' In the case of '&hen I see an

:le!hant 6ly' again the song arose out of the situation""*i#othy trying to #ake )u#bo fly and the crows ridiculing hi#. It was based on an e$!ression, 'I'll belie%e that when ele!hants fly,' a cle%er retort !eo!le #ade back in 191@.
ADAMSON

;eally,
HUEMER

es, that's the e$!ression: '*hat'll ha!!en when ele!hants fly.' And other cracks along those lines: I saw a brownstone stoo!, I saw a banana stand, etc. ;e#e#ber those sayings, )id you e%er hear a fireside chat, -a, -aB
ADAMSON

&ere they all #ade u! by the songwriter,

HUEMER

I would say that #ost of the# were co#!iled by the lyric writer.
ADAMSON

;eally,
HUEMER

eah, sure. *here you go again doubting #eB

ADAMSON

&hy is there such a !roliferation of %illains in Dumbo,

HUEMER

&ell, %illainy #akes a background for the goodness of the good characters, doesn't it, It brings out the fact that the #other had to struggle in this nasty world, where e%erything is stacked against her. And little *i#othy, the last guy you'd e$!ect to hel!, the traditional ene#y of little ele!hants Ewhich is biologically true, of courseF turns out to be the great benefactor. And in the end e%erybody is !roud of )u#bo.
ADAMSON

es, but only after he's !ro%ed hi#self.

HUEMER

&ell, let's say that it's #elodra#a.

ADAMSON

&ell, it see#s a %ery sardonic %iew of the world.

HUEMER

&ell, you'll find that's how I a#. I see no !re!onderance of good in it. &hich is realistic. But we won't go into that.
ADAMSON

0o into it.
HUEMER

A hundred years fro# now, it'll all be settled, we'll all be blown u!. *hink of itB *here'll be nobody to read this thing. All this work for nothingB
ADAMSON

)o you think that the fil# reflects your own outlook,

HUEMER

I don't say it's all #y fault. /o one #an had that big an effect on it. )isney characters, and I don't #ean chro#atically, are always black and white, drawn %ery shar!ly, no grays. ou're a %illain or you're not. *hat was his for#ula, anyway. As a #atter of fact, it's characteristic of our #ediu#""that's how cartoons ha%e to be. 4therwise, they're wishy"washy8 again, in #y o!inion.
ADAMSON

es, but if you look at Snow (hite there's only one %illain.
HUEMER

&ell, that's how the story was.

ADAMSON

If you look at Pinocchio, it's about half and half. In Dumbo there is +uite a !aucity of sy#!athetic characters.
HUEMER

)id it bother you,

ADAMSON

/o, it didn't bother #e.

HUEMER

It was entertaining, wasn't it,

ADAMSON

4h, yeah. I thought it reflected an outlook.

HUEMER

/ot entirely. It's inherent in the story. It's the story of an ele!hant that was born a cri!!le. /aturally, e%erything is stacked against hi#8 the whole world is stacked against a cri!!le, isn't it, *hat's the situation, and if you don't show hi# battling against this situation, then you don't ha%e conflict, do you, .o in a !icture which shows a cri!!le or a freak, you're #ore a!t to ha%e nasty !eo!le. *he situation of the crows !icking on little )u#bo was there already. :ither dialogue or song would do8 but a song would be an obli+ue way of doing it, a !leasanter way, a cle%erer way, a #uch #ore entertaining way, than 3ust saying, '5ook8 who's trying to fly,' In a song you can bring out all these !oints !ainlessly.
ADAMSON

*hen there was the idea of ending the #o%ie...

HUEMER

*he #usic, *he idea of using a re!rise like the ':le!hant 6lying' song is standard #usical co#edy !rocedure. And when you think about songs in"the !icture that's the one that has the best beat, a good li%ely beat. *hat's a %ery good +uality to end the !icture with, and that's why we did it.
ADAMSON

&ho did the %oices for the crows,

HUEMER

5et #e think about that. 4h yes, it was a colored grou! fro# the -all"Johnson (hoir.
ADAMSON

)id they react to the /egro stereoty!e business that you had indicated,
HUEMER

ou #ean did they react unfa%orably,

ADAMSON

)id it offend the#,

HUEMER

/ot at all.
ADAMSON

)id they think it was %ery funny, or what,

HUEMER

es, they did, they liked it %ery #uch and en3oyed doing it hugely. *hey e%en offered suggestions, and we used so#e of their ideas, lines of dialogue or words, little touches. -a!!ens all the ti#e when you're #aking a !icture. .o#ebody will suggest an i#!ro%e#ent. *he KnewL #aterial kee!s accu#ulating all the ti#e. I don't think the crow se+uence is derogatory. In fact, when so#eone #entioned the !ossibility to #e, I was +uite taken aback. I ne%er ga%e that angle a thought8 and I still don't. But this #ay be !art of why the studio hasn't re"released it lately8 I don't know.
ADAMSON

*hat #ay !ass.

HUEMER

4f course, it will. *here's nothing derogatory anywhere in the se+uence. It's da#n cuteB
ADAMSON

&hen did you first hear anybody +uestion it,

HUEMER

/e%er actually...not until this !resent unrest began a few years back. I don't re#e#ber the e$act circu#stances. I think so#eone 3ust #entioned the !ossibility.
ADAMSON

ou had a /egro in Fantasia, too, didn't you,

HUEMER

4ne of the little centaurettes in Beetho%en was a little colored girl. *hat is the to! of her body was a colored girl, the rest was a Nebra, and she was the #aid. &hile one of the centaurettes was !ri#!ing the little #aid was handing her a !owder !uff and holding u! a #irror. But, you see, we were using her in that ca!acity8 that's the only !lace she a!!ears.
ADAMSON

ou had absolutely no kickback fro# that at the ti#e,

HUEMER

/othing. I don't think #any of the# saw the !icture.

ADAMSON

)id you e%er think of lea%ing )isney,

HUEMER

es. )uring the war, Joe 0rant and I were finally at odds with &alt and he with us, and we thought we ought to lea%e. &e went o%er to see Jui#by at '0' .tudios and started arranging a deal. Actually we did arrange one and were all !re!ared to go o%er and work for Jui#by. And &alt heard about. ou see, during the war you weren't allowed to change 3obs8 and e#!loyers were obliged to tell a

co#!etitor when #en were thinking of changing 3obs, which Jui#by did. 4r at least &alt found out so#ehow and he forbade us to lea%e. .o that's the nearest we ca#e to lea%ing at any ti#e. &e finished out our contracts.
ADAMSON

)id you e%er think of lea%ing after that,

HUEMER

/ot seriously, no. It was a !leasant !lace to work. It was still a great big .anta's &orksho!, you know.
ADAMSON

&ere you going to do the sa#e sort of thing o%er at Jui#by's,

HUEMER

es. Joe 0rant and I would ha%e been !roducers, like -anna and Barbera who were going great guns at the ti#e doing *o# O Jerry. *e$ A%ery was also a !roducer o%er there.
ADAMSON

2roducer,
HUEMER

By !roducer, I #ean he would #ake his own !icture and direct it. In effect, that was !roducing. *hey didn't gi%e hi# the title, but his o!eration was that of a !roducer. Jui#by was the official !roducer of all '0' cartoons but he contributed nothing creati%ely.
ADAMSON

.o you would ha%e gone back to directing, in effect,

HUEMER

/ot ani#atingB 0od forbidB 'o%ing that character across the !a!er,B &hewBB
ADAMSON

&hy did you !ick Jui#by,

HUEMER

&ell, his outfit was doing the nearest thing, we thought, to what &alt was doing. -e had -ar#an and Ising working for hi# and they were +uite close to &alt in their o!eration, ha%ing been with hi#. /e%er once got e%en close, but they were trying. And we heard that '0' wasn't a sweatsho! like &arner's.
ADAMSON

-ow do you #ean sweatsho!,

HUEMER

*hey didn't !ay well. It was a case of grinding the# out like sausages. A!!arently, all .chlesinger cared about was getting the #oney. 0rind the# out, #ake the deadlines. It was a #iracle how #any good !ictures they #ade e%en so.
ADAMSON

&hy was Jui#by's o!eration different, -e wasn't that different a !erson.

HUEMER

&ell, '0' had the tradition of ha%ing good #en there, guys like *e$ A%ery, and -ar#an and Ising, and 6releng, and -anna and Barbera. 'ilt 0ross worked at '0' for a while, did you know that, 'ilt 0ross told #e that he used to listen in on Jui#by's #eetings after hours. Jui#by's s!ies would co#e to hi# and tell hi# what was going on. 'ilt said he found a !lace in the floor where he could listen and hear the# s!illing e%erything. -e was %ery bitter about '0', 'ilt was. 2erha!s I shouldn't be telling you this. 4f course, they're both dead.
ADAMSON

*ell #e about 6red Jui#by.

HUEMER

*ell you about 6red Jui#by. &ell, let's !ut it this way: the only +ualification he had for his 3ob was that he was breathing, which he had to do, you know. 2re%iously, I think he had been a fil# sales#an. :%idently, the '0' #anage#ent arbitrarily !ut hi# in

charge, like saying, '4kay, Jui#by, you will be head of our cartoon de!art#ent.' *hey tell #e he was a sort of unlettered character. *he ti#e he was reading a re%iew of one of their cartoons in a trade !a!er which was headed: 'A #ediocre cartoon,' and Jui#by looked u! fro# this !a!er confused and said, ''acrocolor, .ay, listenB 4ur cartoon was #ade in *echnicolor, wasn't it,' -e had #isread 'acrocolor for #ediocreB *hat'll gi%e you a hint of his shar!ness. -e had nothing whate%er to do with what went into the !ictures. -e was 3ust lucky to ha%e good #en. EI had that story fro# 0eorge 0ordon.F
ADAMSON

*ell #e about the things you did to get &alt interested in Dumbo, the story.
HUEMER

I'll let you read our outline of the treat#ent, and you'll see little de%ices in the writing. 5ike I drew a teardro! on the !age which said, ';ead no further unless you are of strong character and can take it, because what we're going to tell you, you won't belie%e"see you to#orrowB' .ort of ke!t the sus!ense fro# day to day. 9ery corny writing, but we thought it was a good way to intrigue hi#. Actually &alt was %ery susce!tible to sti#ulation. 2eo!le would show hi# drawings and he'd light u! and get enthusiastic. 5ittle character sketches sti#ulated hi# into doing the centaurs and other #ythological characters. -e'd say, ' eah, that's funny.' ou know, '*hat's good, we ought to do so#ething like thatB' And we'd be off and running with his a!!ro%al. Again it was a case of bringing logs to the head bea%er for hi# to build his da#. /ot that he wasn't ca!able of getting his own logs. -e could get the biggest logs you e%er saw. &hen you write so#ething or do so#ething, you analy1e it for the #ost effecti%e a!!roach andPor an unusual way that has ne%er been tried before. ou can't really say that there's any hard and fast rule for it. But all along the line, in e%ery !hase of !roduction, you're trying, if you ha%e anything at all on the ball, to do it in so#e way that has ne%er been done before. 4r always to kee! sus!ense, and !rinci!ally to get sur!rise, and e%en #ore than all that: which is the funniest, if co#edy is what's called for. 4r if it's

tragedy which occurs in Dumbo when his #other is locked u!, what is the saddest thing you can do, ou lock her u!, she's caged, it's night ti#e, .he rattles her chains...it's the #ost lugubrious situation you can contri%e. It's si#!ly a #atter or working and !icking away, discarding things and co#ing u! finally with what's best""#ost show worthy.
ADAMSON

.o you had to work hard until you had this result,

HUEMER

And howB /one of that first blush stuff. .ure, &alt would often get big ins!irations8 and so#eti#es other !eo!le would, too. But generally it was all hard work, analy1ing and re"analy1ing...re"re" re"analy1ing, discarding and starting all o%er again.
ADAMSON

I'# thinking of that wonderful shot where *i#othy has decided that he can't fly, it can't be done, and he looks down and sees their shadow on the ground.
HUEMER

Again, that's the result of analy1ing and finding the #ost effecti%e way to do it. ou could take that whole !icture and do e%ery scene in it twenty different ways. .o#e #ight be better8 although I can't think of anything in that !icture that #ight be done differently. I think the lu#bering ele!hants are beautiful. 9erna 6elton was the %oice for one of the ele!hants. &e recorded it first, you know.
ADAMSON

&hat about taking the easy way out,

HUEMER

/o, )isney ne%er i#agined doing that. *hat's one of the secrets of his success8 and we talked about his little #agic tricks and what his #agic consisted of. 4ne of the tricks was ne%er lea%e a thing until it had been #ilked in e%ery !ossible way, and worked out in the best !ossible way no #atter how #uch ti#e it took or how #uch #oney it cost. -e built his !ictures that way. Actually, not that you bring it u!, he #ade #any se+uences 3ust to see if they would work. :%en

though they weren't essential to the story, he'd go ahead 3ust to see, to try, always to try for the touchdown !lay. It's how the bedbuilding se+uence I told you about in Snow (hite ha!!ened. And the eating se+uence was also cut out.
ADAMSON

ou see# to ha%e a lot of res!ect for this #an.

HUEMER

ou couldn't hel! feeling awe in the !resence of genius. *his is an actual !hysical feeling. It reaches out, it touches you, like electricity. 6igurati%ely, we could feel hi# co#ing down the hall, our hair would stand on end, the backs of our necks would cringle""you could hear hi# coughing. /ot that you were afraid of hi#8 nobody was afraid of &alt !hysically. &hen he ca#e into a roo# and !eo!le 3u#!ed into their seats, he bawled the# out, ')on't be afraid of #e. I don't want to see you 3u#!ing into your seat like that. If you e%er do it again, you'll hear fro# #eB )on't be afraid of #e. I don't #ind you standing around. If you feel restless go out and walk in the gardenB' I'd like to see you do that in front of Jui#by or .chlesinger. *hose guys lo%ed to see e%erybody at their boards working as if in a sweatsho!. /ot )isney8 he was the first one to introduce the idea of rela$ing the gri# grind on !eo!le. And as a result he got #ore work out of the# because they worked out of lo%e for what they were doing. And the fact that they were doing so#ething which a lot of the# thought would be i#!erishable. -igh sounding words, but it's true. &alt was in a lot of ways a %ery kindly #an. I think I'%e told you this, a %ery fatherly guy in #any ways. -e started loan co#!anies for his e#!loyees, instituted all kinds of incenti%e !rogra#s, and if you did a good 3ob on a scene, you would get a bonus without asking or e$!ecting it. I re#e#ber getting a thousand dollars once. 4ne ani#ator got three thousand dollars. All e$tra, #ind you, outside of salary 3ust for ha%ing done so#ething that !leased hi#. &alt was always willing to re#unerate !eo!le for doing good work. -e a!!reciated good ani#ation. )irection really didn't #ena that #uch to hi# at the ti#e because of the fact that he was really the director, and the #en who called the#sel%es directors were, you #ight say, assistant directors. *hey did a lot of the routine work like ti#ing and handing it out, those technical tasks that had to be done. 4f course, they also !ut in their touches8 e%erybody did that. &e used to ha%e gag contests,

and we would !ay #oney for gags that were acce!ted8 and week after week the studio gardener would co#e off with the #ost #oney. *he gardenerB
ADAMSON

&hy didn't he e%er beco#e a gag#an,

HUEMER

-e was a da#n good gardenerB

ADAMSON

As far as e#!loyers ha%ing this attitude, how would you co#!are )isney with the 6leischers,
HUEMER

I would say I'd like the# ne$t to &alt. I liked working for the 6leischers. *hey were %ery war# and hu#an. .o #any studio owners or #anagers were sons of bitches, they really were. But the 6leischers were %ery hu#an !eo!le8 I liked the#. &e were good friends8 we'd go bowling and things like that. &e en3oyed #aking good scenes. I re#e#ber sitting down with )a%e beside, he'd take a chair, and we'd talk and work it out. I re#e#ber working out a scene of >oko landing on the #oon with strange characters, a luna ar#y in charge of a looney drill sergeant that sna!!ed at >oko with enor#ous teeth. &e ga%e hi# a funny na#e, 'Be1ark,' I think. And it was fun to !lan it out and ani#ate it and fli! it for )a%e. And they !aid #e all right8 I was getting I1?@. a week. *hat was bad #oney for those days, and since I en3oyed the work it was !leasant being with the 6leischers.
ADAMSON

&hat were your feelings when the )ulli*er's Tra*els fil# ca#e out,
HUEMER

I thought it #issed. )on't you, I don't belie%e it was such a financial success. (ertainly not co#!ared to )isney's features. 'aybe they thought it was all right, but we a )isney's knew it wasn't good ani#ation. 4h, it's no use #y gi%ing a criti+ue on it. It certainly wasn't u! to a )isney !icture.

ADAMSON

)id you think that was the trouble with it, that it was trying to be a )isney !icture,
HUEMER

I #ay be the only one who e%er #entions it, but thought !erha!s these little characters were su!!osed to be a little like the dwar%es. Is that the na#e, 0abby, &ell, there you are, you see, ending with a 'y' like )o!ey. And you can't co#!are the drawing to )isney. (an you co#!are 0abby to the dwar%es, *here is no co#!arison. *he dwar%es are elegant, grand. And I'# not !re3udiced.
ADAMSON

&hy do you think they #ade it,

HUEMER

Because after the s#ashing success of Snow (hite, it #ust ha%e see#ed like a good way to #ake a fortune. *hey were getting on the bandwagon8 it's traditional in -ollywood.
ADAMSON

ou're gi%en story credit for Saludos $migos. &hat !art in it did you ha%e,
HUEMER

I did the story of '2edro.' And this is how that ca#e about. Joe 0rant and I worked u! a little story while &alt was in .outh A#erica, called '2etey 4'*oole.' 2.*. like the letters on an air!lane. Joe and I wrote this story of the baby #ail !lane who was to #ake his first tri! around the country. -e has !arents who are big trans!orts and they warn hi# to look out for high tension wires. *hese were weird #enacing characters Ewhich incidentally were left out of the storyF that li%e only to tear an air!lane fro# the sky. *here's a stor# and his getting lost and the #other going out and searching for hi# and so forth. &hen &alt ca#e back he didn't ha%e enough #aterial for one of the .outh A#erican features which he had contracted for so he brought this story fro# Joe and #e, and he changed it o%er to gi%e it a .outh A#erican setting. -e now had to carry the #ail o%er the #ountains, !ast terrible 'ount Acu#cagua to the coast.

ADAMSON

&ell, who did the transfor#ation,

HUEMER

I wasn't in on that. Joe and I were then working on so#ething else. It #ight ha%e been one of the war !ictures.
ADAMSON

)id you write it intending for )isney to use it as a short or what,

HUEMER

/aturally we thought he #ight be interested in it. It was cute, the little !lane with the little nose and eyes.
ADAMSON

)id you do the drawings,

HUEMER

/o. Joe 0rant did so#e of those...'artin 2ro%inson...Jack 'iller also worked on the#. .o they didn't ha%e to change the drawing of the character, 3ust the terrain, substituting Acu#cagua as the #enace. &e had '*he 4ld 'an of the 'ountain' in ours. It was the 4ld 'an who tore !lanes fro# the sky because of the wind around hi# and e%erything. *he gru#bling 2*'s getting lost in the snowstor#, the #enace, e%erything was essentially in the trans!osed %ersion.
ADAMSON

Is it true about the winds at Acu#cagua,

HUEMER

'aybe so. I was ne%er there in #y little 2i!er cub.

ADAMSON

-ow about the !uns at the beginning, the thing about the little boy !lane, &ere they yours,
HUEMER

es, I'# afraid so. .orry.

ADAMSON

I thought they were greatB *he conce!tion of the #ountain was #y other +uestion. It was a %ery ghastly, i#!osing figureB
HUEMER

*he idea ca#e fro# the 0reat .tone 6ace in the &hite 'ountains, but we didn't really ha%e any s!ecific !lace in #ind. /ow, Peter and the (ol which you are going to see and for which I did the final story was started by -a# 5uske and !ut aside as unfeasible. &alt ga%e it to #e, !robably I sus!ect, to #ake #e unco#fortable. .o I was stuck with it, analy1ed it, and found out why it hadn't been co#ing off. *he whole trouble was in the introduction of the characters. If you !lay 2rokofieff's recording, you'll find the order of characters different fro# what we did. -is starts with the introduction of the wolf""and the whole key of the thing working was to take to the wolf out of that. *his is how si#!le things can be in analy1ing. &e !ut the wolf last, let hi# end the introduction of the characters, and when the narrator says, 'And there was also a wolfB' you can get s#oothly into your story. ou couldn't ha%e done that with the wolf co#ing along at the %ery start. It was si#!ly a #atter, and it often is, or arranging these seg#ents differently. And it worked like a char#. It's a good !icture thanks #ainly to &ard >i#balls's great ani#ation of the hunts#en.
ADAMSON

0etting back to the story of '2edro,' there was sort of a 3u#!: you decided he was dead then you decided he wasn't dead. &as that in the original,
HUEMER

&ell, that's sus!ense.

ADAMSON

*hen all of a sudden he co#es inB

HUEMER

*hat's legiti#ate.

ADAMSON

But that was in your story,

HUEMER

es, sorry.
ADAMSON

I did like the !uns though, didn't I,

1.-. TAPE NUMBER III: Side One, (O.&"*e+ 8, 1968

HUEMER

I want to gi%e you a few thu#bnail i#!ressions of so#e of the fellows at )isney's. It's not going to be easy to #ake this interesting because after all what can you say about guys who co#e in, sit down, and do an eight hour stint at their desks or drawing boards. ou see, ani#ation re+uires a lot of strict a!!lication, nose to the grindstone, turn it out. I don't think bricklayers work any steadier than ani#ators. It #ay be art to so#e, but to ani#ators it's 3ust !lain hard work. /ow I'll tell you about /or# 6erguson. /or# started as a bookkee!er at 2aul *erry's $esop's Fables. *hen I su!!ose one day he thought he'd like to ani#ate, tried it, and didn't get #uch encourage#ent because he left *erry's and acce!ted an offer fro# )isney. &alt was really hard u! for #en in those days, and he was trying al#ost anybody that showed any talent. In e%ery studio there was, and still is, the so"called Best Ani#ator. &hen I ca#e to work at )isney's in 19DD, /or#, or 6ergy as we called hi#, was it. /ot only the best at )isney's but conse+uently the best in the world. &alt was 3ust cra1y about 6ergy's ani#ation and with darn good reason. 6ergy's characters li%ed and breathed and see#ed to ha%e actual thought !rocesses. -is 2luto and the fly!a!er se+uence, for instance, was a real classic. It still holds u! as well as e%er today, 19=9. I 3ust saw it last week in connection with a show were doing for *9 this (hrist#as, and we all laughed as #uch as e%er. 6ergy did the roughest !encilling of anybody I e%er saw or heard of. *he inkers used to be al#ost in des!air, !icking the right

lines to follow out of this #ish"#ash, but they lo%ed it, they lo%ed to work on his stuff because they also knew how great it was. *hey a!!reciated good stuff when it was finally on the screen. 6ergy wasn't 3ust a 2luto and 2eg"leg 2ete ani#ator either. -e did all the wicked witch ani#ation in Snow (hite. -e used to say that he would ne%er lea%e the )isney studios, and when he got too old and feeble to ani#ate any#ore, he'd be !erfectly content as a studio co!. It's sad to tell you that his wish wasn't granted. 5ike so #any ani#ators, e%entually he beca#e a director, and while I don't know all of the facts it's #y belief that &alt !inned so#e of the bla#e for the !oor showing of Saludos $migos on 6ergy. I know they had se%eral bitter argu#ents, which was %ery unusual. *hen one day he was gone. -e found a 3ob with se%eral s#aller studios8 he #ight e%en ha%e gone into business for hi#self. About fi%e years afterwards he died %ery suddenly. I re#e#ber seeing hi# in a bar, Al!honse's in *oluca 5ake, where a lot of us ani#ators used to go after work, and he see#ed !erfectly all right. *he ne$t week I heard that he'd died. 6ergy had been suffering fro# diabetes for about A? years. &ell, I'd 3ust like to say that 6ergy was one sweet little guy, that's how e%eryone felt about hi#, and in his own way, he was also one of &alt's de#i"geniuses. At a #eeting once &alt said to 6ergy, '6ergy, you're a great actor,' and 6ergy sort of si#!ered and said, '&ell, don't know.' And &alt said, ' es, you are. *hat's why your ani#ation is so good because you feel. ou feel what these characters feel.'
ADAMSON

-ow did he get an offer fro# )isney, if he was a bookkee!er,

HUEMER

Because he had done so#e ani#ation. I think 'anny )a%is took hi# under his wing a little and sort of hel!ed hi# out, so he had actually done ani#ation for *erry. I su!!ose he wanted to i#!ro%e hi#self, and &alt was e$!anding and would take anybody with e$!erience. 6ergy hadn't ani#ated #uch before, but he fell right into it. -e was one or the naturals, like 6reddy 'oore or &ard >i#ball. It 3ust naturally flowed out of their !encils or heads or where%er it co#es fro#.
ADAMSON

'ost of &alt's !ublicity shows an ani#ator #aking faces in a #irror. &as that %ery co##on,
HUEMER

&ell, that was done #ore co##only in the days before we took to using li%e action to base the ani#ation on. ou know that .now &hite, the girl, was all !hotogra!hed and the ani#ation based on actual fil#. /ow a !icture like The )oddess o Spring, which was full of hu#an characters, was not. And if you were to run it today, you'd see how difficult it is to ani#ate without li%e action to go by. *o sit down and ani#ate a hu#an figure, the way you would a cartoon figure, 3ust doesn't work out. *here are too #any little subtleties in the thing that #ake it li%e. It's #y i#!ression that #irrors weren't used too #uch e$ce!t as a !ublicity gag. ou'll see 6ergy doing it.
ADAMSON

ou ne%er used #irrors at 6leischer's,

HUEMER

/o.
ADAMSON

4r .creen 0e#s,
HUEMER

/o.
ADAMSON

/ot .creen 0e#s. (olu#bia,

HUEMER

/o.
ADAMSON

4r 'utt and Jeff,

HUEMER

/o.
ADAMSON

-ow often did you use the ;otasco!e,

HUEMER

6or all hu#an characters in features starting with Snow (hite. :%en 6ergy's witch was based on so#ething 9erna 6elton acted out. -er actions were reduced to !hotostats and he worked o%er the# changing the !ro!ortions and e%entually the face and e%erything. *he 2rince and e%en the dwar%es were done that way. I re#e#ber 2erce 2earce acting out one of the songs about how he caught a skunk, chased hi# u! a tree, and 'I got the worst of hi#, he got the best of #e,' so#ething like that. I know that they !hotogra!hed ani#als for "ambi. *hey had an actual deer on the lot8 it esca!ed one day and we were running all o%er the -ollywood -ills after it. And when they did Lad# and the Tramp, they did a lot of !hotogra!hy of dogs to study their actions. 4f course, it's not !ossible to #ake a dog do e$actly what those dogs Kin the !ictureL did8 it can't be done. But you could get the actual !hysical #o%e#ent, which you couldn't do 3ust by i#agining it. But by studying li%e action, you can do it. &alt was a great one for analy1ing that kind of thing, e%erything as #uch as he could, which nobody else in the business e%er thought of doing. /ow, we'll talk about :arl -urd. Back in 1917 or 191? :arl had a co#ic stri! in the New !ork -ail, a news!a!er since defunct. It was called :ditor 'ouse8 you'll note #ice were already used in cartoons then. It was #ostly based on !uns so#e of which I thought were really +uite cle%er. :arl had another co#ic stri! in the #iddle A@'s called .u1ie .unshine. It was a continuity stri! with a little girl character, and for the first ti#e e%er as far as I know, one of the characters died. *his was a %ery unusual and shocking thing to ha%e in a co#ic stri! in the A@'s, and it got a lot of !ublicity. &ell, the stri! died too, e%entually, which was nothing new. *he #ortality rate is %ery high in co#ic stri!s, as I know only too well. :arl was a %ery in%enti%e guy. -e in%ented the cell syste# for ani#ated cartoons. -e also in%ented a graduated ratchet syste# for the #o%e#ent of !an backgrounds under the ca#era. Before that it used to be done by hand by #aking little gradations on the botto# of a !an. But he rigged it u! so that it could be done with a

crank. In his later years he #echani1ed his chicken yard in Burbank, gates o!ened and e%erything o!erated by electricity. It was a %ery astonishing thing. -e was a !retty old guy then and hadn't aged well. -e was kind of shaky8 s#oked too #uch I su!!ose. 6or so#e reason I ne%er figured out he ke!t a li%e chicken back in his studio in /ew ork in the A@'s. I don't know, #aybe he couldn't eli#inate the far# boy fro# his nature. *here's a #e#orial !la+ue to :arl -urd in the lobby of the theater on the )isney lot. It's the only one of its kind8 nobody else who e%er died has one. -e died +uietly of a heart attack in his worksho! tinkering to the %ery end. And also to the %ery end his sketches were %ery highly thought of at )isney's. -e still had a %ery keen #ind and it took a !re#ature death to re#o%e hi# fro# acti%e !artici!ation in the D@'s. -e was one of the real !ioneers. *he whole idea of using cells was his, instead of doing it the way 'c>ay did with e%erything on !a!er and traced. &ilfred Jackson has been written u! +uite a bit. ou'll find a reference to hi# in &alt )isney's daughter's book and in The Disne# &ersion and a book that's going to co#e out this year on &alt. -e was a %ery i#!ortant #an at )isney's. I worked with hi# a lot8 he was the only cartoon director who ca#e to work in sneakers. -e was +uite careless in his dress. And I know that when &alt retired hi# after D@ years of faithful ser%ice, Jackson was also %ery u!set. *his ha!!ened in 19?8. &alt ga%e hi# a gorgeous tri! around the world with the goose hanging high and the red car!et rolled out. Jackson really got the royal treat#ent. -e had gone on the tri! because he had had a heart attack and &alt thought that it would be good for hi#. But it's #y o!inion that &alt thought also that he was not really going to be able to co#e back to work, that his attack had inca!acitated hi#. But Jackson stayed on, and I worked with hi# on a few *9 shows and then in 19?8 &alt retired hi#. I know that he was %ery unha!!y and it took hi# a long ti#e to get used to this. -e was one of &alt's %ery first #en, ca#e out of art school !oor as a church#ouse, hardly had the fare to get to the studio. -e worked out the idea of #usic with a cartoon, he was %ery instru#ental in working that out.
ADAMSON

Instru#ental, is that a !un,

HUEMER

/o !un intended. As a director Jackson was %ery #eticulous. -a%ing worked with hi#, I thought !erha!s a little too #uch so. I didn't think it really re+uired that #uch going o%er. -e worried an awful lot. I think that's why he had his heart attack, he was a worrier. It was really frightening to work with hi#, to see how he would go into so#ething and analy1e it right down to the ato#. -e turned out fine work though.
ADAMSON

)id he ha%e #ore art training than the a%erage ani#ator,

HUEMER

9ery !ossibly. I think se%eral other ani#ators had so#e art school training. I know I did. I know *ytla did. And I'# sure that 6reddy 'oore didn't. I think >i#ball's training was corres!ondence school.
ADAMSON

)id you e%er feel that need for #ore art training than you had,
HUEMER

es, I did. I wish I'd had #ore. I think you ha%e only so #uch talent, that's as far as you go. I don't think I had the talent to be an illustrator or a fine artist, so I didn't go into it any dee!er. *here are so#e #en who ha%e had the talent in the business. I think that Bill *ytla was a %ery fine artist and a good ani#ator, in #y o!inion one of the best e%er to work at the )isney studios. -e was a %ery #oody !erson with the kind of !ersonality that &alt didn't understand. &alt didn't understand a lot of !eo!le that were out of the range of his e$!erience. I think &alt felt Bill was a little foreign or #aybe being too /ew orkish. But &alt couldn't hel! ad#iring his ani#ation, because who couldn't, It was 3ust great. I think it was !ractically !erfect. -is ani#ation of .atan in 'A /ight on Bald 'ountain' in Fantasia is a classic. Bill could ani#ate anything funny or otherwise. Just the other day I saw so#ething he did in one of the shorts of a giant. It was a beautiful !iece of work with all the weight of a giant. And I'# sure this was done without li%e action study. I'd say that Bill can ani#ate anything es!ecially weighty characters like the giants or the ele!hants in Dumbo. -is wife was

always needling hi# to lea%e (alifornia and go back to /ew ork, and one day he ga%e in and left -ollywood. I know he hated to do it. Bill was %ery !roud of his ;ussian descent too. I can still see hi# at a !arty beating his chest, a glass of %odka in the other hand, and yelling, 'I'# a (ossackB I'# a (ossackB' (ute guy, I tell you. .ince he's been in /ew ork, I'%e lost track of hi#. /or has anything outstanding been done in ani#ation by hi# that I'%e noticed. It's a sha#e, a #an with his talent beco#ing #ired in the #ediocre work they do in /ew ork. *he story about 6reddy 'oore is that he ca#e to &alt asking for a 3ob, and when &alt asked hi# if he had any sa#!les, 6reddy fished around in his !ocket and brought out a few cru#!led !ieces of !a!er. And when &alt saw what was on the#, they looked so good that he was hired right on the s!ot. I don't think he had any organi1ed training in drawing. Anyway, &alt was %ery interested in hiring hi# because he was a natural drafts#an, absolutely natural, it flowed right out of his !encil. I think that was the trouble with 6reddy, it ca#e too easy to hi#. &ith the !ossible e$ce!tion of 0ru#!y who was #ostly Bill *ytla's creation and )o!ey who was Art Babbitt's, the dwar%es in Snow (hite would not ha%e been the sa#e without 6reddy. -e keyed the# for what they beca#e. 6red was great until he died !re#aturely, indirectly the result on an auto accident. I ne%er saw so #any !eo!le at anybody's funeral. -e was another one of &alt's !alladins. But you take a guy like 'ilt >ahl. 6reddy's stuff looks shallow co#!ared to 'ilt's. *hat was the trouble with 6reddy, if I #ay say so, he wasn't too analytical. And this will show in ani#ation. Bill *ytla, for instance, was a %ery s#art guy, and that's why his stuff had weight. Again no !un intended. &hen he did these giants, they had weight, and these were great things. 6reddy 'oore was a bit of a lightweight that way, but he didn't ha%e to think about it, it 3ust flowed out. Any #ore you want to know about hi#,
ADAMSON

Any 'oore, &as #ost of 6reddy 'oore's acti%ity in the creation of characters, or in ani#ation, or in direction, &hat did he s!end #ost of his ti#e doing,
HUEMER

-e was ne%er a director. It was in the creation of characters, his style of drawing and his ani#ation. *hey went hand in hand. 6reddy was also %ery good at drawing girls, beautiful, se$y little wo#en. But they all see#ed innocent and childlike, again a reflection of hi#, although he was a !lenty %irile guy. -e fell out of the window at the big brawl we had at 5ake /arconian to celebrate Snow (hite. -e fell out of a second story window and landed in a bush8 he wasn't hurt at all. *his was a fa#ous saturnalia that took !lace on &alt's bounty. *his all night affair, this orgy where drinks are on the house and free roo#s, oh boyB &alt ne%er did that againB I #yself didn't stay8 I left at sundown because I wasn't there with #y wife. I had to co#e ho#e. )id I e%er tell you about when &alt did the 'idas story, -e was out of a director at the ti#e, and &alt hi#self decided he would direct a short. .o he got 6reddy 'oore, the best ani#ator in the !lace, for little characters, cute stuff, and /or# 6erguson to do the 'idas, the big character. And &alt !ersonally #ade out the e$!osure sheets, sat down 3ust like we directors did, and did all the work. And with the best #en and the best brain in the business, how do you think the !icture turned out, 5ousy. And he had to ad#it it hi#self. /ow, isn't that a funny thing, &hen it ca#e right down to it, he couldn't do it, and yet he could get it out of other !eo!le. *his is a strange thing. *he !icture was not funny, it wasn't con%incing, you weren't with it, it 3ust wasn't there.
ADAMSON

&ell, didn't he in effect direct all the fil#s at first, Steamboat (illie and things like that,
HUEMER

es, those he did, that's true. But when I got there in 'DD, he already had a staff of directors, Jackson and )a%e -and were directing. &alt was 3ust the !roducer. In effect, &alt #o%ed his directors around 3ust as though he were directing, but when it ca#e down to where he did it hi#self, as he did with 'idas, he got a !oor result. *here's so#ething I ha%e to bring out and that is, it's #y o!inion that, great as &alt undeniably was, he ne%er would ha%e acco#!lished what he did if he hadn't attracted such talented guys.

I always liked to say, 'All right, &alt's a genius, but he couldn't ha%e done it with Nulus or :ski#os.' 5ike /a!oleon had to ha%e brilliant #arshalls who were talented tacticians in their own right, &alt had to ha%e this grou! or, as I call the#, the !alladins.
ADAMSON

-ow did he attract the#,

HUEMER

*ake #e for instance. &hen I turned &alt's offer down in 19D@ to go to work fro# /ew ork, the #o#ent I turned it down, I regretted that I hadn't gone to work for hi#. Because &alt was doing the kind of ani#ation that you could be !roud of. &e're not in the business 3ust to #ake #oney. &e !icked ani#ation because we liked it, we wanted to be ani#ators, we liked to draw. .o e%ery ani#ator regardless can't hel! ad#iring su!erior stuff or wanting to ha%e a hand in it. And &alt was such a thundering success that I really bitterly regretted that I had turned hi# down and gone with 'int1 and 3ust frittered away three years on #aking #oney but doing little else. And &ard >i#ball, who was undeniably one of these !alladins, told #e 3ust the other day that when he was u! in .anta Barbara he couldn't wait to co#e down to ask for a 3ob with &alt. *hese !eo!le would set their sights on &alt )isney and working for hi#, if they had any talent or ability or desire.
ADAMSON

-ow was it that you got to work for )isney again, )id he #ake you another offer or did you go to hi#,
HUEMER

I went to Ben .har!steen who was #y friend and said, '&ell, Ben, I'd like to co#e and work for &alt now.' And Ben 3ust went and told &alt and that was all it was. I went and had this inter%iew with hi# and in walked (harlie (ha!lin and -.0. &ells and I al#ost fell on #y !ratt. Anyway I think that >i#ball was certainly one of &alt's great ac+uisitions. :%en when he was on 0eorge )rake's training !rogra# he did a #ar%elous first !iece of ani#ation la#!ooning )rake. It was so funny that e%en though it infuriated )rake, he couldn't do

anything about it. It was a beautiful !iece of work, and it was one of the first things &ard had e%er done. ou see, &alt set u! a !rogra#. -e sent 0eorge )rake and )on 0raha# to /ew ork, and they ad%ertised in the /ew ork !a!ers for !eo!le to learn the ani#ation business. *hey get letters and if the +ualifications suited the#, they'd write the guy to co#e for an inter%iew. And if he !assed that, he was signed to co#e to -ollywood and learn ani#ation. *here would !ay hi# ten dollars a week or whate%er it was, 3ust enough to get by, and there would be a school of ani#ation. *hey got about A@ guys, !aid their fare out here. )rake was a %ery tough task#aster and thoroughly resented by all the kids. But &ard's was a %ery wonderful !iece of work, that's why )rake couldn't conceal it fro# &alt. :%entually that thing broke u! anyway. It only lasted for a short ti#e during the thirties. &hat !u11les #e about &ard is how he finds ti#e to do all that he does. Being a full ti#e ani#ator is 3ob enough for anyone es!ecially with the creati%ity he !uts into it. -is is a %ery good story #ind and he #anages to !ut his !ersonal sta#! on e%erything he does, for instance, the cats in Cinderella. *hat's &ard. I kind of think &alt was a little 3ealous of hi#, I think he did hi# that honor. &ard is a %ery cle%er oil !ainter, too, a#ong other things. -e could ha%e shone 3ust in that one #ediu#. -e bought and refurbished a life" si1ed loco#oti%e and coach, re!ainting the thing with little designs and fi$ing it u! so that it runs !erfectly. It's a #useu# !iece8 it's such a beautiful thing that &alt tried to get it away fro# hi# to run at )isneyland. -e felt he needed another loco#oti%e down there8 he e%en told &ard, '*he #en are co#ing to !ick it u! to#orrow.' And &ard said, '/o. /o, they're notB' I don't think &alt e%er forga%e hi# for that. *hen, of course, there's &ard's Ja11 band, *he 6irehouse 6i%e""which in itself is a career. *hey !erfor# !rofessionally, you know, and they ha%e a lot of records out. 'ostlyH )isneyland, but they get lots of dates at big affairs. &ard !lays the 3a11 tro#bone. -e also !ut out a %ery cle%er book of !ictures with ca!tions called $rt $ terpieces, which went into se%eral !a!erback editions, in which he takes %ery fa#ous !aintings and gi%es the# a funny ca!tion. And then he has the best collection of )isney #e#orabilia in the world: (hrist#as cards, all kinds of )isney toys, do1ens that were current at one ti#e but can't be gotten now8 and )isney watches, so#e of which are worth I1@@ a!iece now, dinky watches that sold for I1.?@. -e's got a house full of that stuff. But I #ust say he's #aintained his own identity, he didn't get absorbed in )isney. &ard >i#ball is still &ard >i#ball

and #ore !ower to hi#. -e ani#ated one of the *9 shows that I saw the other day. But I think he's going to be a director or !roducer, like this *9 show he 3ust !roduced, *he 'ickey 'ouse 7@th Anni%ersary .how. Bill 2eet is another who ke!t fro# being co#!letely sub#erged by )isney. *oday he's grinding out %ery, %ery good children's books, and by his own ad#ission he's a %ery ha!!y guy. (alls #e u! e%ery once in a while when he's in his cu!s and talks for hours. Bill has that %ery ha!!y and unusual co#bination of a keen story sense and brilliant co#ic drawing ability. -e was also a good !ainter. I don't think he was e%er %ery ha!!y working for &alt. I don't think &alt e%er really knew his worth, but we knew how good Bill was and belie%e #e we a!!reciated hi#. &alt e%entually recogni1ed his ability, but by that ti#e Bill was so e#bittered that he ne%er +uite got o%er it. *oward the end &alt is said to ha%e told Bill that he was #uch too cle%er to be working for hi# and asked hi# why he didn't +uit, and Bill did. But he didn't do it until he finally had built u! a good kids' book business. -e's got about ten %ery good books out which ha%e nothing to do with )isney, nor did &alt e%er buy any of the# to base his !ictures on. *hey're so#e thing on the order of )r. .euss only better in #y o!inion. -e draws the# and writes the#. 9ery interesting character8 he was a -oosier. /ow, there's )on )a0radi. 5ike Bill 2eet, )on co#bines great drawing ability and great story ability. I do think )on is the funniest guy I e%er #et !ersonally. -e's not doing cartoons any#ore, he's graduated. -e's doing li%e action !ictures with Bill &alsh. *hey #ake a %ery fine li%e action tea#. Actually he and &alsh are at the #o#ent the ho!e of the studio, now that &alt is dead. )a0radi was a lay"out #an on !ictures likeCinderella. -e uses that talent on li%e action !ictures now. *hey do a lot of sketching, you know, for li%e action !ictures. *hey %ery often lay"out a whole !icture in sketches, did you know that, Just like cartoon storyboards. *hen they take the boards down to the sound stage where the stuff's being shot and the director looks at it and knows 3ust what to do. 'aybe that's what's the #atter with so#e of the#. I 3ust worked with )ean Jones by the way on this )isney birthday !icture. -e's a nice guy.
ADAMSON

)oes he !lay 'ickey 'ouse,

HUEMER

.ort of...he !uts on one of those hats with the ears. &ell, so #uch for )on )a0radi.
ADAMSON

*his brings u! an interesting thing. If he was such a funny !erson, why didn't he beco#e a hu#orist,
HUEMER

I don't +uite...
ADAMSON

&hy be a lay"out when e%erything you say is hilarious,

HUEMER

&ell, he was an artist basically. -e could draw like hell. And a great lay"out #an, that !ays 3ust as well as the other. *o )isney, it did. Anyway his stuff was a#ateur stuff when he was being funny. .itting in a !ro3ection roo# while they were running his co##ents would kill you. )an's !art Italian and !art :nglish. ou wouldn't know he was Italian, he doesn't look it. -e doesn't wear a ring in his ear.
ADAMSON

)o you know if Bill 2eet did any ani#ating before )isney,

HUEMER

I don't belie%e so. -e #ay ha%e been one of the !eo!le in )rake's !rogra#. &hen I say that was an in+uisition and a nasty o!eration, I don't bla#e )on 0raha# for it. *he other guy was the hatchet #an and his na#e was anathe#a to the !eo!le who suffered under hi#. ou see how little I know about these guys and I worked with the#. As I say %ery few of us fraterni1ed after work. Before -a# 5uske a!!lied for a 3ob in -ollywood, he also wanted to be an ani#ator. -e had worked u! in .an 6rancisco, I think, on a news!a!er. &ithout the least bit of knowledge of ani#ation, he

#ade a fil# test of a !layer ser%ing a tennis shot which was 3ust great. I i#agine he !robably studied li%e action, but he ne%er ad#itted it. -a# was a dedicated guy, but he was such a worrier. &orrying about the future of ani#ation after &alt's death #ay ha%e contributed to his attack of heart failure. -e was, I would say, directly res!onsible for the ani#ation of .now &hite herself. *his was the first ti#e anything had been done that was beautiful in the si#!le analysis of the action. It was done o%er li%e action, but if you could see what he did, taking the figure of 'ar3orie Belcher Eshe was dressed in costu#e, of courseF #aking the head al#ost twice as large and cutting down the waist and reducing it to a cartoon. *his was a big 3ob8 he had to do thousands of these. :%erybody had to gi%e hi# credit for that. E'ar3orie Belcher, by the way, beca#e 'ar3orie 0ower (ha#!ion.F &hat he did was really a sensational ad%ance in the history of ani#ation for serious hu#an characters. &hen 6leischer did the clown in ;otasco!e, they didn't change it #uch. It was )a%e's !ro!ortions, head in a suit with the hat, and e%erything si#!lified, of course. But -a# did #ore than that. -e would change the !ro!ortions so it beca#e a cartoon, a figure. .tudy her if you get a chance any ti#e and see if you can tell how #any heads tall she is. Instead of a hu#an being, eight heads tall, she beca#e fi%e heads tall, so it all had to be different !ro!ortions. -e did a great 3ob on it. Anyway, it was a big ad%ance o%er The )oddess o Spring. -e told #e that his wife acted it out for hi#, but they didn't !hotogra!h it so it ca#e out terrible. But then none of us were %ery !roud of our ani#ation of that !icture. I ani#ated 2luto, the de%il character, and I didn't do it o%er any li%e action, I 3ust kind of acted it out #yself and then drew it. It wasn't %ery good either. -a# beca#e a director in the last ten or fifteen years. *hey took hi# off the last cartoon features and !ut hi# on ani#ated *9 shows. And he wasn't %ery ha!!y about that, but then you can't !lease e%erybody, can you, I knew )a%e -and in /ew ork where we were both ani#ators on the 4ut of the Inkwell staff. I re#e#ber when I ca#e back there after one of #y lea%e takings, he was let out and I took his 3ob. )a%e wasn't %ery outstanding as an ani#ator at )isney's, but when &alt #ade hi# a director, he was %ery effecti%e and directed one of the best shorts of that ti#e. &hen &alt really wanted a good !icture and he had a real good story, I think he ga%e it to )a%e because )a%e really !ut the stuff in it. &hen Snow (hite was being set u!, &alt %ery arbitrarily !ointed the finger at one -arry Bailey,

an old /ew ork ani#ator, and said, ' ou're the director.' And this was one of &alt's #istakes. Bailey, who is in the 0reat Ani#ating .tudio in the .ky now, really flo!!ed at the 3ob. Bailey was a tall, handso#e guy and &alt was fre+uently i#!ressed by the !hysical as!ect of !eo!le. Bailey really didn't ha%e the ability for it. -e was !retty hel!less about it, so one day &alt 3ust de#oted hi# and !ut )a%e -and in his !lace. Again he 3ust !ointed a finger and #ade )a%e -and the chief director of Snow (hite. &alt really !roduced Snow (hite as I'%e told you so #any ti#es. &alt was in on e%ery single #o%e, e%ery single thing that was done. ou can't think of a thing &alt didn't okay in that !icture. &ell, how can you say that )a%e was the !roducer, )a%e was his assistant !roducer, let's say. It was )a%e's 3ob, or any !roducer's 3ob to see that &alt's directions were followed, to see that &alt got what he asked for. If so#ething was ob%iously %ery bad, the director would see to fi$ing before &alt noticed it, but when it ca#e to #aking the decisions as to what to lea%e out or what to do ne$t, the director !er se didn't do it. &alt did it. But &alt needed this assistance, this guy to !ick u! the loose ends behind hi# and o%ersee the working out of a feature cartoon. &hat is directing, *he 3anitor used to send in gags. &e used to ha%e #eetings where e%eryone was called in to gi%e their o!inion of so#ething""then you were the director. ou had to break this down into titles of so#e sort. A !roducer, theorectically, was abo%e a director. A !roducer like )a%e -and had four directors under hi# and they had to answer to hi# for certain things, but nothing that was of great #o#ent. &alt had the last say on that. *here really is too #uch e#!hasis !laced on titles. It doesn't really #ean anything. ou can't !in it down the way you can in the Ar#y. &hen I was a director, I was able to sweat"bo$ stuff and ha%e ani#ators change it without &alt seeing it. 4nce when an ani#ator balked, we went to &alt and &alt backed #e u! because I was su!!osed to !resent so#ething that was in fairly good sha!e for &alt to !ick on. &alt figured a director knew what he was doing enough so that when we weede so#ething out"it was really bad. )a%e when his contract e$!ired left the studio, and since then he's been in%ol%ed in so#e sort of co##ercial thing in (olorado .!rings. :%idently he's #ade a good li%ing. 4f all the !eo!le that !assed through the )isney studios during &alt's lifeti#e, no one had the knack of getting along with &alt like 2erce 2earce. *his !lus a certain creati%e ability and a flare for organi1ation #ade hi# %ery !o!ular with &alt. 6or instance, it was

he who suggested !utting an ele%ator in the new Burbank studio when we went o%er the !lans. *his was unheard of""an ele%ator in a cartoon studio, I think 2erce had a lot of business e$!erience. -e had this real !ontifical #anner and all the cliche e$!ressions, 'seeing eye to eye,' and 'do what it takes.' *his went o%er really big with &alt. 2erce was gi%en, which is a strange thing, a certain autono#y o%er "ambi. &alt shifted the res!onsibility to hi# and told hi# to #o%e o%er to a !lace which they had rented o%er on .eward .treet. *hey called it the .eward .treet .tudio8 it's still there although )isney doesn't own it. *here he was and he sat with his staff and started grinding out "ambi. 2erce, as I told you, had a lot to do with Snow (hite which will show in his record and '.orceror's A!!rentice' which he directed. After the war when the studio decided to use u! its i#!ounded :uro!ean currency Eyou couldn't get the #oney out, you had to lea%e it there and in%est it after the warF, 2erce was sent o%er to !roduce a series of li%e action !ictures. *his was the first serious atte#!t at li%e action features by )isney. -e #ade %ob %o# and The Sword and the %ose. I don't think they were financially successful8 anyway he stayed in :ngland. 4n the o!ening day of )isneyland in 19??, we got word that he had suddenly died of a heart attack at our 5ondon office. -e sat down at his desk and died. -e used to tell #e how he !layed &alt like a fish on a line, letting hi# think he was ha%ing his way but 3ust when the right #o#ent ca#e to gently !ull hi# back. At least he belie%ed he was doing this. But 2erce was a guy who got on your ner%es at #eetings because he was %ery deliberate. -e ne%er blabbered like so#e !eo!le. -e'd button his coat and suck his !i!e and look at the ceiling for a #inute EI don't know how he got away with itF and #ake you wait for an answer and finally say, '<h" huh.' -e had this i#age all worked out, and &alt lo%ed it. -e had a %ery successful career at )isney's which only began to lessen after those li%e action !ictures. I think again &alt bla#ed hi# for their lack of success.
ADAMSON

-ad he e%er been an ani#ator,

HUEMER

I don't know. I don't think so. I wonder how he got started. I know he %ery +uickly got a director's 3ob. -e was an i#!osing guy, too,

#ature co#!ared to ani#ators who are really generally nai%e. *he business#an ty!e""&alt lo%ed it. 5es (lark was one of &alt's first ani#ators. -e's still going strong today. A +uiet, self"effacing guy who turns out a fine 3ob of ani#ation8 &alt was %ery fond of hi# !ersonally and so a# I. -e's such an unobtrusi%e guy I don't know what I can tell you about hi#. A funny thing about 5es, he's not really too great a drafts#an but he's good enough to look %ery good. -e's not what I would call a natural artist. -a# wasn't a natural artist either. Bill 2eet and 6red 'oore are naturals, 'ilt >ahl and >i#ball, too. But there are guys who ha%e to work at it8 and it isn't +uite as brilliant but the ani#ation is still great. ou'll find a guy on the roll call by the na#e of )ick Anthony. -e was a cracker3ack background and #atte artist8 I think he ca#e fro# outdoor billboard ad%ertising. I know he tells stories about being on the scaffolding in the free1ing weather back :ast.
ADAMSON

-e ani#ated to get in out of the cold,

HUEMER

2robably. -e was a %ery #oody guy and see#ed to brood a lot, es!ecially when he was laid off at the studio. I asked why he didn't get another 3ob and I couldn't get a decent answer out of hi#8 he was a little tetched. -e was a terrific gun collector, and one day he !ut a !istol into his #outh and sent a bullet through his brain. I 3ust bring hi# to your attention as one of the few studio suicides. *he other was 6rank (hurchill, who #ay ha%e been &alt's finest creati%e #usician. -e was also the studio's outstanding alcoholic8 but it didn't interfere with his work. -e'd co#e back fro# a little saloon u! the street and he was leaning backwards. -e used to !lay the !iano in the silent #o%ie days to hel! actors get into the #ood. I re#e#ber being terribly i#!ressed when &alt sent hi# u! to Arrowhead with 5arry 'orey. ou re#e#ber the ')ri!, )ri!, )ri!, 5ittle A!ril .howers' nu#ber fro# "ambi, *hey went u! there in the solitude and wrote that. (hurchill did %ery well and bought an i##ense !iece of !ro!erty abo%e 0or#an, and there it was that he !ut a shotgun between his knees and blew his brains out. I think he

was brooding about his unfa%orable status at the studio. -e couldn't take falling out of fa%or, I guess. Albert -urter goes back to 1918, so#ewhere in there. *here aren't any of his drawings in e$istence in any other #ediu# besides !encil. I ha%e the only one that's an ink drawing, of so#e horses. But he was %ery good with !encil renditions. Albert was a .wiss. /e%er got #arried and when he died he left a sta#! collection that was worth a fortune. -e li%ed in a du#! on 'ain .treet in 5.A. and outside of his rare :uro!ean sta#!s had no outside interests. *he way &alt used hi# was to turn hi# loose on a !ro3ect, gi%e hi# his head o%er a situation or so#ething and see what he could co#e u! with. -e'd sit by hi#self all day and fill sheet after sheet with drawings, all highly i#aginati%e and often grotes+ue. -e was on #ost of the early .illy .y#!honies. *he wonderful details and car%ings in Snow (hite, the furniture, candlesticks, costu#es, were all his, created or ins!ired by hi#. -is sort of 'edie%al, 0er#anic a!!roach was 3ust what the !icture needed. In Fantasia, the de#on on to! of Bald 'ountain was his idea. A si#!le !encil sketch suggested the whole thing to us. -e showed a de#on u! there unfolding his wings and we !icked u! the story. *hat's how he o!erated. -e would gi%e wonderful ins!irational suggestions. -e left instructions in his will to !ublish a book of his collected !encil drawings, and this was done under the title He Drew as He Pleased. It has a %ery fine forward by *ed .ears who was one of the old ti#ers. &e sat at the sa#e bench u! in 6ordha#. &hen -urter dro!!ed out of 'utt and Jeff, he was in ad%ertising for #any years. Actually nobody else could use hi#8 his ani#ation was all right for 'utt and Jeff, but it wouldn't ha%e done for the then !re%ailing style. .o &alt ne%er used hi# for ani#ation, 3ust for sketches, which was a %ery cle%er use of the #an because he did brilliant, beautiful stuff. /obody like hi#, nobody. *hen there's &inston -ibler. -e had so#e stage e$!erience and ca#e to (alifornia to work as a black3ack dealer on a ga#bling boat. I don't know how he #anaged to get on at )isney's, but he did as a cutter, not as an editor, 3ust a cutter. And he was %ery unha!!y because he was a#bitious. .o on his own ti#e in his own ho#e he worked u! co#!lete storyboards on Johnn# $ppleseed. -e brought it in, showed it to &alt, and he said, '*his is the best news I'%e had in a long ti#e,' and bought it. *hat's how he started, and &alt i##ediately !ut hi# on story. -is narration and story

collaboration were certainly i#!ortant in setting the tone for the *rue"5ife Ad%entures. -is sta#! is %ery indelible on those things. &ithout -ibler they #ight ha%e been good, sure, but he added so#ething e$tra. .ince then he's graduated to li%e action !ictures and is now a !roducer. *hen there's -ugh -ennessey. I think he was &alt's first lay"out #an. And since &alt instituted the idea of lay"out #en, he was !robably the first in the business. 4ther studios didn't bother going to the trouble of laying anything out, ca#era fields and fields of action and all that. -ugh was a %ery good artist. -e has a son who is a brilliant !ainter who is also in the #otion !icture business but not in cartoons. I'# !retty sure that -ugh !osed for the li%e action of the face in the #irror in Snow (hite. *hat's his basic face you see there. 'ight e%en be his %oice. -e was %ery acti%e and well thought of to the last, one of the big #en in the studio8 and he died of a heart attack in the #en's roo# of .cotty's (astle in )eath 9alley.

1.6. TAPE NUMBER III: Side T!", (O.&"*e+ 8, 1968

HUEMER

/ow, I'll tell you about 6red .!encer who was the good duck #an at the studio. -e beca#e the )onald )uck s!ecialist. -e wasn't only good but awfully fast, and when &alt instituted the syste# of !aying bonuses, I think he had 6red in #ind because he was the !rinci!al benefactor. -e #ade an awful lot of #oney on his duck stuff. .o#e of the guys would get u! to ID,@@@ e$tra on a !icture that way. If he'd li%ed, he would ha%e retired rich but he was killed in an auto#obile accident co#ing ho#e fro# a football ga#e. /ot #uch I can tell you about hi#. -e had a %ery unfortunate disfigure#ent8 his lower 3aw had been ca%ed in as a child by a baseball bat. .o he had a big hollow on one side of his face and he was red"headed""that's all I obser%ed about hi#. &e had a lot of good oil and water color !ainters at )isney's. &e still ha%e 2eter :llenshaw, an :nglish#an, who s!eciali1es in #atte shots for &alt's li%e action !ictures. -e's so good that his latest e$hibit of oil !aintings in 2asadena was sold out the first day, at enor#ous !rices. .o he's no .unday !ainter.

*hen there's Josh 'eador. -e s!ent all his s!are ti#e, e%ery weekend, with oil !ainting. At first all he did was !aint seasca!es. -e taught hi#self and e%ol%ed a %ery effecti%e style using only his !allet knife, which he !ronounced '!ilot neff' because he ca#e fro# the 41arks and had a %ery thick -illbilly accent. In fact, we thought that his real na#e was really Josh 'eadow and that he said, 'Josh 'edder,' so he beca#e Josh 'eador. &e don't know8 this was 3ust a gag. -e had a %ery i#!ressi%e !ostu#ous e$hibit in Bardsdall 2ark in -ollywood last year. -e died in 19=C. /ot #uch I can tell you about hi# e$ce!t that he was a %ery strange looking #an, a %ery craggy face, really #ost re#arkable. -e #ust ha%e had Indian blood in hi# or so#ething.
ADAMSON

ou were talking about working in the sa#e roo#. -ow roo#y was the )isney studio,
HUEMER

&e had roo#s as big as this one at )isney's, about 1A by 8, with a window at one end, a door at the other, and a table. *here was roo# for four in these roo#s, grou!ed by ani#ator and assistant. .o -a# and I shared one roo# with our assistants beside us, and all we had to do was reach o%er and hand the# whate%er we wanted the# to do. *his arrange#ent in itself was an inno%ation. 6ergy had his roo# and he had two assistants. -a# and I both later had two or three assistants all in the sa#e roo#. /e%er #ore than four !eo!le, and there was a long row of #aybe ten or twel%e of these roo#s.
ADAMSON

;ight around at his !eak how #any cartoons did he ha%e going at one ti#e,
HUEMER

At one !oint he had "ambi and Fantasia going, and he #ay !ossibly ha%e o%erla!!ed Pinocchio in there so#ewhere. And shorts went on, too. *hey ne%er sto!!ed #aking )onald )ucks.
ADAMSON

&hat went on with "ambi in the .eward .treet .tudio,

HUEMER

)own at .eward .treet, they were doing storyboards, of course, and they were doing e$!eri#ental stuff, too. I re#e#ber 2erce showing us how he had gotten the da!!led shadows on Ba#bi when he lay under a bush. ;eal co#!licated stuff. *hings like that. And I belie%e they did a little ani#ation there. But the ani#ation was done !rinci!ally back at the #ain studio, after the storyboards had been finished down there.
ADAMSON

*his #ust ha%e been the #ost co#fortable, elegant, and !ersonali1ed studio you worked in.
HUEMER

&alt was a great stickler for that. -e wanted the furniture !ainted, and he had good"looking indi%idual desks !ainted i%ory with little touches of orange here and there. &alt always wanted nice surroundings8 along the ceiling we had little blue borders of con%entionali1ed flowers and things. A great regard for outward a!!earances was a %ital !art of &alt's #ake"u!.
ADAMSON

&as the studio shown to a lot of !eo!le when it was in o!eration,

HUEMER

/ot #uch8 that is, not #uch to the !ublic, until we #o%ed to Burbank. *here were always !ro#inent !eo!le who wanted to co#e through that &alt wanted to show it off to, actors or #aybe a go%ernor. And after a while the studio instituted tours, but they don't do #uch of that any #ore either.
ADAMSON

5ike <ni%ersal (ity,

HUEMER

/othing like that, don't get that ideaB *here were only certain days and these were s#all !arties who would be !retty well screened. It

wasn't indiscri#inate. *hey ne%er #ade a thing of it like at <ni%ersal8 but it was done occasionally.
ADAMSON

ou said a cou!le of !eo!le succeeded in not being sub#erged by )isney. )o you think #ost !eo!le were,
HUEMER

.ure, like in any business. If you don't de%ote yourself to it, you !robably won't be successful. I ne%er wanted to be sub#erged in it, and ne%er really was8 Bill *ytla was another. I #ean this blind de%otion, this auto#atic chau%inis#, that so#e !eo!le ha%e. /ot e%erybody had that. -a# 5uske had it. It was a blow to &illy Jackson to be let go when he had de%oted hi#self so wholeheartedly to the studio. It's hard to take for guys like that.
ADAMSON

)id you e%er feel any sort of resent#ent about the i#!ersonali1ation of beco#ing a )isney e#!loyee,
HUEMER

6or a long ti#e, of course, there were no screen credits whatsoe%er. I'# sure e%erybody secretly resented that. /ot acti%ely. &hat could you do about it, anyway,
ADAMSON

And then when credits did a!!ear, there were so #any na#es that the effect was still anony#ity.
HUEMER

&ell, I, for instance, had a legiti#ate beef on not getting a credit on Pinocchio, on which I did a lot of work. But I ne%er #ade an issue of it. &hat did I care, As I say I ne%er was a chau%inist regarding the studio of anything else for that #atter. 9ery often a guy would do work and so#ebody with a say in it and ha%ing it in for hi# would kibosh his credit. I think I told you in an earlier session that, !ersonally, I can take it or lea%e it alone. I'# the la1iest !erson you e%er #et, and working two days a week at the #o#ent suits #e fine. It should'%e been that way right along. /ot ha%ing freedo# of #otion, being able to get u! and lea%e when I

wanted, bothered #e. I understand that it's econo#ically i#!ossible in the ani#ation ga#e where it's a +uestion of turning out footage, you can't e$!ect your boss to let you off the hook...when I was a boss, I certainly wouldn't let #y !eo!le loaf either. It's %ery a#biguous, the whole thing, isn't it, 5ife is that way.
ADAMSON

I asked you once before if it bothered you to work nine to fi%e and you said, '/o.'
HUEMER

5et's say at one !art of #y career, it didn't8 and then later it did. &hen I first started, like e%erybody else, I was eagerness and fire and e$cite#ent and in%ol%ed in the fun of it, naturally. &hen I had certain 3obs at the studio that I liked, when I was a director, I lo%ed it. It was thrilling to sit at your desk and #ake decisions and to ha%e !ower in the creation of the thing. I would'%e worked ten hours. But hunched o%er a board ani#ating, #aking a character #o%e fro# here to there, that was 3ust too #uch. *hen I looked out the window.
ADAMSON

)o you think this bothered #ost of the !eo!le at )isney, that they were not recogni1ed as indi%idual creators, but e%erything they did was looked u!on as the work of &alt )isney,
HUEMER

I don't know if it was an acti%e resent#ent. .ure, it #ay ha%e been there8 but who else in those days was gi%en credit, 4n .cra!!y or any of those do!ey 'int1 !ictures, we didn't gi%e credit to ani#ators. It was by )ick -ue#er. It was kind of taken for granted. /obody got credit for '4ut of the Inkwell' e$ce!t 'a$""''a$ 6leischer's 4ut of the Inkwell' and that was it. It was a fait acco#!li. ou couldn't co#bat it. ou #ight wish when you did so#e really nice stuff on an early )isney that you could ha%e your na#e on it, but there are other things in%ol%ed. It was only a short8 you couldn't hel! thinking, '&ho Kout thereL cares who ani#ated it,' 'ost !eo!le surely didn't. 5ike credits on *9 shows""I ne%er read the#.

1.'. TAPE NUMBER I/: Side One, (June #,, 1969

ADAMSON

&alt didn't ha%e #uch affection for $lice in (onderland, did he,
HUEMER

I think it was o%er his head #yself8 I think he #uffed the whole idea of it. *o #e, it's one of the greatest books in the :nglish language8 it's #uch too good for children. And &alt was unsubtle. All the brutality of the Jueen, that was e$aggerated. But the thing that I was greatly disa!!ointed in was the '&alrus and the (ar!enter' e!isode. It turned out dreadful, but &alt can't be bla#ed for that. Bill 2eet handled that co#!letely by hi#self, si#!ly because &alt wasn't with it, he wasn't interested. -e often withdrew fro# things he didn't +uite dig.
ADAMSON

)o you know why he did it in the first !lace,

HUEMER

I think he felt he had to do it. 2eo!le were always writing in and saying why don't you do this, why don't you do that. I #yself asked hi# back in 19D8, why don't you do The Hobbit. -e couldn't see it. But !eo!le constantly were saying, '&alt )isney si#!ly #ust do $lice in (onderlandB' .o we did itB And that's how it turned out. BlahB
ADAMSON

)o you su!!ose that's why he had !eo!le like Aldous -u$ley on it, to try and figure out what there was he wanted to get,
HUEMER

It's #y !ersonal o!inion that he thought it would be a great na#e to associate with the !icture. &alt was always %ery conscious of !ublicity and the effect of things. *his see#ed to be a good gesture, to ha%e one of the great li%ing :nglish writers do the great :nglish classic. And there was a si#ilar +uality about 5ewis (arroll

and Aldous -u$ley, although (arroll was to #y #ind the greater literary figure. -u$ley contributed not one thing to our $lice in (onderland. &alt was %ery cle%er that way. &hen he did Fantasia he !icked .tokowski one of the greatest na#es in #usic at the ti#e, and )ee#s *aylor, who was the great A#erican authority and critic on #usic8 and )ick -ue#er, who went to o!eras and knows all the good restaurants in 2hiladel!hia. AhB I ha%e li%ed. I don't know any other reason why he !icked $lice8 it was si#!ly a great classic and incu#bent u!on hi# to do it.
ADAMSON

I guess that was his feeling with (innie the Pooh, too.
HUEMER

/o doubt of it.
ADAMSON

)oes 'Blustery )ay' ha%e a se+uence stolen fro# Dumbo,

HUEMER

eah. (annabali1ed. *he 2ink :le!hant se+uence. :%en the lyrics of the song ha%e the sa#e fla%or. It's different but you can see that it was !rofoundly influenced by the original in Dumbo. I su!!ose it's legiti#ate to re!eat8 it's !robably a great co#!li#ent.
ADAMSON

)o you su!!ose this had anything to do with &alt's resent#ent towards Dumbo: take it's no%el, best scene and steal it for another !icture,
HUEMER

I don't know about that. *he Time 'aga1ine article really did gi%e the i#!ression that &alt didn't ha%e #uch to do with it, and &alt was +uite angry about it. .o e%en though Dumbo has always been regarded as one of &alt's better !ictures, he hated it, and to this day I don't belie%e it had been re"released. *he *9 %ersion was cut down and our credits were taken off. 'Blustery )ay' in the &innie the 2ooh series included that se+uence, a direct co!y fro# the big ite# in Dumbo, the sa#e basic structure e%en to the sensation of a

night#are. &alt was that way. -e had to own la#b. <ntil the #other licks the la#b clean and #akes it hers, she won't nurse it.
ADAMSON

:%entually you and Joe 0rant fell out of fa%or with )isney.
ADAMSON

-e had econo#ic trouble at this !oint, didn't he,

ADAMSON

&asn't that !art of the reason, .o#e kind of financial difficulty,

HUEMER

4h, well, yes, of course. I think that was really the basic reason. I think it was Cinderella they were working on and I re#e#ber &alt saying, '*his is it. &e're in a bad way. If this !icture doesn't #ake #oney, we're going to be finishedB *he studio's going to be ka!utB' *he staff was cut way down and we got cut down with it. &hereu!on I went to work for John .utherland, who had a studio #aking co##ercials and anti"(o##unist !ro!aganda !ictures.
ADAMSON

ou'd been attacking /a1is# during the war.

HUEMER

es, like ')er 6uerher's 6ace,' and also 'In%itation to )eath.' *he answer is ob%ious: you #ake a buck howe%er you can. 'r. .loan, then the head of 0eneral 'otors was a rabid anti"(o##unist, and .utherland's !ictures were designed to show how #uch better off A#erican workers were than (o##unists, that was the gist of the#. *he other !ictures .utherland #ade were 3ust co##ercials. 6or instance, we'd do s!ots for 0.:. *hen I was called back to )isney's. 4ne day the !hone rang8 it wasn't &alt but the guy who was hiring !eo!le. -e said, ')ro! in. &e ha%e so#ething for you.' *hey had an idea for a !icture that had been kicking around, about #usic. *hey wanted to do so#ething se#i"educational but funny and easy to take. I was !ut on that and out ca#e $d*entures in -usic. *he first !icture was called -elod#, and the second was Toot. (histle. Plunk. and "oom, which was u! until this last year the last ti#e that &alt won an Acade#y Award for a short.

*hat was about ten years ago. I was getting u! another one about the nostalgia of #usic, with the sa#e characters, 2rofessor 4wl and the (uckoo bird with a dunce ca!. got the whole board u! and !resented it !ublicly in the 2enthouse (lub, &alt, ;oy, and se%eral others, and it went o%er great. *hen they suddenly decided not to #ake it. And I did a %ery bad thing. I figured they didn't want it, so I took it down and carelessly left it so#ewhere and it was thrown out. It's one of the lost stories, like the se+uence of Snow (hite I did which by strange coincidence was lost, too. 4n that stuff I ha%e the roughs on fil#, but the drawings are gone. Anyway, they called #e u! after I had left and said that now they wanted to do the #usic !icture, and they wanted to know where it was. I couldn't tell the#. I left again briefly and went to work for -orell for a few #onths doing co##ercials. &e also had a !ilot on a cartoon series which didn't sell. *hey were starting a series and doing so#ething si#ilar to what I'# doing with you now, because e%en then I was considered an authority on the old days on ani#ation. &e #ade these four shows which were all about the ani#ation business, '*ricks of the *rade,' '*he Art .!irit,' '*he 2lausible I#!ossible,' and I forget the na#e of the other one. I reconstructed the circu#stances under which &insor 'c(ay did '0ertie the )inosaur.' -e'd say, 'Are you hungry, 0ertie, -ere's an orange,' and he'd throw so#ething u! onto the screen. And 0ertie would !ick it u!. It was %ery cle%er. *hey re!roduced it e$actly fro# #y descri!tions and e%en hired an actor that looked like 'c(ay. And I re#e#ber seeing this in 1917. I was in high school at the ti#e. -e also #ade the *itanic which I didn't see at the ti#e. '*he Art .!irit' was about -enried, an artist who was a great art instructor in /ew ork at the /ational Acade#y of )esign where I studied. I showed how a %iew!oint can differ fro# artist to artist. 'ark )a%is, Josh 'eador, :y%ind :arle, and &alt 2eregoy, these four studio artists, were to go out and !aint a tree, the sa#e tree on the sa#e .unday. I ha%e one of their !ictures hanging o%er #y #antle, the one Josh 'eador did. And it was a#a1ing how differently each saw the sa#e tree. 5ike :y%ind :arle, who does wonderful (hrist#as cards, delineated e%ery knothole, e%ery inch of bark, e%ery leaf, %ery designy. *hat's the sort of thing I was doing at this ti#e. *hen &alt wanted to cancel out units. -e cancelled Jackson's unit out. Jackson, #yself, and others were taken off acti%e !roduction. I had been doing this *rue"life ad%enture stri! since about 19?? on the side. .o I 3ust went on doing that8 I wanted to retire anyway. I was old enough

and e%en #ore tired that I was of ani#ating that figure across the !age. .o that's all I'%e been doing8 ho!ing you are the sa#e.
ADAMSON

.how #e the books you'%e got there.

HUEMER

*his is the source of #y #aterial for writing the *rue"life ad%enture stri!. I go through natural history #aga1ines, /ational 0eogra!hic, Ari1ona Illustrated, these are all great sources for this sort of thing. 4f course, I ha%e to dra#ati1e and also change it so the author can't check back and say, '-ey, you stole that fro# #eB' *hat is the trick.
ADAMSON

-ow do you change it without falsifying it,

HUEMER

.ay the coyote does so#ething8 I'll ha%e a wolf do it. *hey're the sa#e kind of ani#al, you know.
ADAMSON

)oesn't that kind of destroy the %erisi#ilitude,

HUEMER

ou can't !ro%e that a wolf doesn't do itB I defy anybody to !ro%e these thingsB But I ha%e to be careful. In e%eryone of these books it says, '/othing is to be used without !er#ission of the author.' 5ook at that. ou'd be sur!rised how si#ilar all these titles are. *here #ust be do1ens that are 'a##als of this, 'a##als of that. *he stuff, what I'# doing, really isn't funny. Although I do try to look for a#using things. &e ha%e to be careful to a%oid anthro!o#or!his#.
ADAMSON

Before you said, '&e ha%e to do so#e anthro!o#or!his#, but not too #uchB'
HUEMER

)id I say that,

ADAMSON

*hat's what you said, yes.

HUEMER

*hen you're right. ou'%e got a better #e#ory than I ha%e.

ADAMSON

2lus I read all this stuff last night.

HUEMER

*he trick with the *rue"life ad%enture is to ha%e the reader identify with so#ething in his life. :%en though ani#als can't !ossibly think about things the way we do, when a dog see#s to be talking to you there's a tendency to belie%e. *hat sort of anthro!o#or!his# we're allowed to do. .o#eti#es there's a little co#ic twist, like when an eagle attacks a badger, we say, '-e'll find that it didn't !ay to badger a badger.' *hat badger's a hell of a fighter8 he'll bite the eagle's leg off.
ADAMSON

Is there that #uch to be known about the world, once a day for the last fourteen years,
HUEMER

ou'd be sur!rised.
ADAMSON

&as it going before you,

HUEMER

/o, I started it. &alt ca#e in to the head of the co#ic stri! de!art#ent and de#anded that it be done, to back the *rue"life ad%enture fil#s. ou #ay well ask where the #aterial ca#e fro#, but one thing leads to another. I #ust ad#it that it beco#es so#ewhat for#ulari1ed. *hrough si$ days a week""it runs on .aturdays, too, you know""there will be a s#all do#estic ani#al Elike a badger or weasel or s+uirrel or #ouseF, a large do#estic ani#al Edeer, #ountain goat, or a bisonF, and so#ething to do with

the ocean or !ond creatures Efish, whales, crabs, or abaloneF. ou see, we'%e got three days already. And the fourth day we si#!ly #ust ha%e a bird8 there #ust be a #illion things about birds. *he fifth day, I go to Africa or .outh A#erica, #onkeys, lions, giraffes, or entirely e$otic ani#als. *hat lea%es one day, and I'll take so#e natural !heno#ena like earth+uakes or tidal wa%es. 4r trees, the fact that the bark of .e+uoias is fire"!roof which is why they ha%e lasted two thousand years. *he bark re!els boring ani#als, as well8 cle%er tree, isn't it, *hen it's for#ulari1ed further into #other lo%e, #ating battles, use of tools, cle%erness. I call this ''other /ature's In%entions'. -ow wood!eckers actually use their beaks as le%ers. .o #an didn't in%ent the le%er, the wood!ecker did. ou'll ne%er run out of #aterial. And so#eti#es you can go back and switch the %iew!oint fro# the antagonist to the !rotagonist. I 3ust did one of the .eguarro cactus, a great big thing about twenty feet tall. &ood!eckers #ake holes in the# and li%e in the#, and later little elf owls li%e in the# after they are abandoned, and so#e #ice. .o in a sense it's an a!art#ent house. I usually ty!e the whole week's work in about a day and then I read. I'll take notes and get #aybe fi%e ite#s out of here, #aybe 3ust one or two, #aybe none. I worked for &alt fro# 19DD. &e knew hi# socially, too8 he was in this house. &e all saw each other socially at first, for #any years, then it beca#e an unnatural arrange#ent. I felt unco#fortable, so I don't think it's good for bosses and workers to sociali1e. 4ne by one e%erybody dro!!ed out of the little coterie. If you were a soldier fighting for /a!oleon you wouldn't want to go to his court for dinner, would you, 4nce I got on this stri!, I ne%er worked with &alt again.
ADAMSON

-e doesn't !ay #uch attention to his co#ic stri!s,

HUEMER

Actually ;oy )isney ran that de!art#ent and still runs it. 6rank ;iley is head of the co#ic stri! de!art#ent and first asked #e to do it because he felt I could. Again it was a +uestion of econo#ics. &hen I was taken off fil# !roduction, all I had left to do was the stri!. .o I do it and en3oy it %ery #uch. 6or one thing I get in a lot of reading, and it's creati%e as hell. ou can't 3ust !ut down the fact that a bird fell out of a tree. ou'%e got to tell a story about it. And

it's also got to be accurate because !eo!le check on us all the ti#e. &e get re+uests for certain co!ies of it, because there are a lot of !eo!le who like the stri! and collect it. 4nce I had an ite# about 4ld 6aithful geyser, and in a bit of careless writing I said that it went off e%ery thirty seconds. It got by 6rank ;iley, it got by the artist who draws it, it got by the >ing. 6eatures .yndicate's editor. It got by e%erything and e%erybody. It got into e%ery !a!er in the country, and we got lettersB :%ery thirty secondsB It would be going continuously if it went off each thirty seconds. I console #yself by thinking that's an editor's 3ob, to watch things like that. I'%e always wanted to be a writer8 I guess i #ust ha%e said that so#ewhere along the line. I ha%e written so#e stuff. I wrote a whole no%el that was ne%er !ublished. It was back in the forties about an air!lane on the way to .outh A#erica, and it carries an underworld thug, a young cou!le #arried to other !eo!le elo!ing, a !riest ha%ing trouble with his religious con%ictions, and it gets caught in turbulence and crashes on a shrouded #ountain. It's foggy all the ti#e, and they don't see the sun and don't know what's north, east, south, or west. It goes through all kinds of secondary and tertiary !lots, %ery co#!licated. All they hear is a church bell. .o#e are hurt and so#e die, there's a terrible #ess. 6inally they get tired of waiting for rescue and wend their way down the #ountain. And lo and behold they co#e to an area where a derelict shi! has been tossed right u! there. I su!!ose you can guess what's ha!!ened. *here's been so#e kind of cataclys# which caused terrible tidal wa%es around the world and reached al#ost to the to! of this #ountain, (hi#bora1o or so#e such, in .outh A#erica. *hey're the only !eo!le who were sa%ed as the result of being in a !lane. &hen I wrote this in 1978 they're weren't so #any !lanes. /ow there would be about two #illion !eo!le, eh, It's an o!en"ended no%el. -ow can you resol%e a thing like that, *he whole thing winds u! when an a%alanche of ice and rocks descends on the shi!.
ADAMSON

And wi!es the# out,

HUEMER

&e don't know. I wish I knew how it ended. *hat's the last I wrote. I a# a disa!!ointed no%elist. Ani#ation was 3ust another for# of e$!ression.
ADAMSON

&ould you say this is true of #ost ani#ators, that they are !eo!le with tentacles out in all directions,
HUEMER

&ell, you take a guy like &ard >i#ball. -e has so #any facets, it's al#ost ridiculous. *he band, the books, the !ainting. -e had a whole e$hibit in the studio library of #echanical !icturesB &hen you !ressed a le%er a ball went u! or so#ething cle%er ha!!ened, they were ani#ated !aintings. *here's no end to what &ard can do. And I know 'a$ 6leischer had been a !olitical cartoonist on the "rookl#n Dail# 'agle. It was a great !a!er killed by unionis#. &hen I went to see 'a$ recently, he showed #e a book that he had done so#e years ago called Noah's Shoes. In a sense it's like the true"life stuff I'# doing, lots of facts about ani#al life. I was afraid to tell hi# what I was doing because he #ight think I had borrowed so#e of the ideas out of his book. I #ust say I was really te#!ted when I read it. .o#e of the bits of infor#ation he dug u! about creatures and their habits were +uite good. -e did a great research 3ob, and it was a cute idea, a tongue in cheek kind of thing that refutes the Biblical story of /oah and the Ark. If you bring two of e%erything on board, you'%e got to bring what they eat also, and one eats the other. ou'%e got to bring both the good and the bad, you get down to flies and how #any ger#s. 'a$ wrote it %ery well, and he was !robably ho!ing that so#ebody would !ick it u! and #ake a #o%ie or a cartoon out of it.
ADAMSON

It would be kind of hard to do.

HUEMER

4h, it would be i#!ossible. All those ani#alsB

ADAMSON

All those ger#sB

HUEMER

*he ger#s #ight be funny: '(reatures fro# Inner .!ace.' *hat's another one of #y true"life titles.
ADAMSON

)o you know if 'a$ or )a%e in%ented the ;otasco!e,

HUEMER

I think so. 4h, you're asking which one of the#. I'll o!t for 'a$. I think 'a$ had #ore of the in%enti%e bent. -e in%ented lots of things8 but I don't know of anything )a%e in%ented. )oes )a%e take credit for it, /o wonder they don't s!eak.
ADAMSON

&here did you hear that 'a$ did it,

HUEMER

6ro# 'a$'s wife.

ADAMSON

&hen you worked there, you worked with )a%e.

HUEMER

es, I ne%er worked with 'a$. )a%e, you #ight say, was the director of the thing. -e chose the stories at that ti#e. But I'# sure 'a$ did the first ones without )a%e. I worked with )a%e. -e sat beside #e at #y desk and we talked: '&hat are we going to do, 5et's do so and so""-a, haB' *hat's how we did the#. &e didn't write any stories u!, co##it the# to !a!er that is. &e didn't know what a board was. *heir relationshi! was not like the traditional !roducer"director relationshi!. *hey were so close then that it was like one and the sa#e !erson. *hey were one !erson, in a sense8 they blended in #y #ind, or so I used to think.
ADAMSON

ou didn't see any argu#ents or anything,

HUEMER

/e%er. 4utwardly they got along %ery well.

ADAMSON

*hey s!lit u! fi%e ti#es according to )a%e.

HUEMER

4h, they #ay ha%e, but I ne%er heard anything serious, so in #y #ind it re#ained a %ery !lacid sort of thing. *hey see#ed to get along like good brothers. *he %ery fact, howe%er, that )a%e was the one that wore the clown suit fro# which they took li%e action !hotogra!hy to ;otasco!e #akes #e think that #aybe he was in at the start. I think he #ust ha%e had the ;otasco!e right away. It's too bad 'a$ wasn't able to talk to us. *hey al#ost always had the ;otasco!e in their !ictures which caused #e to #ar%el at how life" like it was. But how horribly it 3ittered8 when a guy stood still, he shook all o%er the !lace. &hich they couldn't get away fro#.
ADAMSON

)o you know anything about their ;ed .eal organi1ation,

HUEMER

A little bit. 'a$ started it with a guy fro# Agfa na#ed .trauss. -e bankrolled ;ed .eal. *hey o%ere$tended the#sel%es, ha%ing booking offices all o%er the !lace, and they didn't ha%e the !roduct to 3ustify the e$!ense. *hey bought 6rench things, and in those days there was no sound so it didn't #atter, and they had their cartoon. *hey #ade (arrie of the (horus, a serial. ;uth 6leischer changed her na#e to ;uth 6lorence and she acted in the#.
ADAMSON

.he acted in the#, &as she (arrie,

HUEMER

/o. .he was (arrie's friend in the serial. ;uth 6leischer is 'a$'s daughter. )a%e directed it.
ADAMSON

)a%e directed (arrie,

HUEMER

<h"huh. I can still see hi# walking around with a whistle hanging fro# his neck, the !lus fours, and the glasses, to look at the lighting. In those days it was !retty si#!le, you didn't need sound, you didn't need color. 2eo!le 3ust went out with a ca#era and #ade !ictures. *hat's why you could #ake the# so chea!ly. -ow do you su!!ose they #ade 'utt and Jeff for fifteen hundred dollars, *here was no color, no #usic, no synchroni1ation to worry about, no nothing8 but da#n good stories. I'%e told you all that ha%en't I, (arrie ne%er set the world on fire. It ne%er ga%e 0riffith a #o#ent's worry. 'a$ was the business head of it. -e was the guy who confronted whoe%er had to be confronted, disgruntled in%estors and whatnot. .o it ended in the backer taking o%er the whole thing and 'a$ being ousted, and ;ed .eal fil#s was li+uidated. -owe%er, they weren't able to get the clown away fro# 'a$. .o he set hi#self u! o%er at Astoria on 5ong Island, o!ened a little studio and continued #aking song cartoons. It was a little industrial section right under the Jueensborough Bridge. 5ater they #o%ed back to 1=@@ Broadway. 'Aeso!'s 6ables' was the first to do o!a+ue cells as they do today. I think that :arl -urd was the original in%entor of cells in ani#ated cartoons, %ery !ossibly when he was working for Bray. Bray was head of the outfit where he was doing his work, and that #ay be how Bray ca#e to be associated with their origin. I don't know.
ADAMSON

&hen you worked at Associated Ani#ators, why did you !ick 'utt and Jeff,
HUEMER

Because it was a%ailable. It had been a going series. :%erybody knew about 'utt and Jeff8 they were still in the !a!ers. Anything that had !ublicity already going for it was a good bet. &e also knew the lawyers who were handling Bud 6isher's affairs and were able to contact the# and get !er#ission to do it. 4f course, we had to !ay the# so #uch e%ery !icture. &e could ha%e !icked >ra1y >at, which so#ebody did not #uch later. I su!!ose we could ha%e !icked any cartoon stri! character. 5ike -a!!y -ooligan, >at1en3a##er >ids, ;ube 0oldberg things, they'd all been done.
ADAMSON

-ow clearly defined were these characters when you went to ani#ate the#,
HUEMER

It was a built"in thing in the stri! that Jeff was always the fall guy for 'utt who always !icked on hi#, but then the wor# would turn and Jeff would out"fo$ hi#. It was a ri%alry, like 5aurel and -ardy. If we did a !icture about !ainters, any kind of a gag that ca#e along !ertaining to !ainting was okay. *hey fell off scaffolds or !ainted a big bull that ca#e to life, keen old stuff like that. 9ery unfunny stuff like that, I'# afraid. But the second 'utt and Jeff series was done of the !resent o!a+ue cell syste#.
ADAMSON

&as that better stuff,

HUEMER

I would say so. &e were #ore careful about our stories. And then things o%erall looked better with this o!a+ue cell way of doing it.
ADAMSON

&as >oko a clear character in your #ind,

HUEMER

/o. *here was no characteri1ation in that series, on that fella. )isney's the guy that brought that into ani#ation. In a situation, >oko did what anybody else would do.

1.8. TAPE NUMBER I/: Side T!", (June #,, 1969

ADAMSON

*he sa#e thing with .cra!!y,

HUEMER

ou could loosely say that .cra!!y was a little boy. -e didn't s#oke, he didn't drink, or go out with da#es. *hat's about the only characteri1ation. *he gags could be interchangeable with a dog or a gorilla.

ADAMSON

&hat did &alt do with character and #oti%ation, )id he discuss the# o%er the storyboards,
HUEMER

)id he, ou bet your lifeB .ure he did. *hat's the one thing that we got all the ti#e. &hen I went to work for hi#, we did .illy .y#!honies, and the characteri1ations were %ery clear in those things. 5ike when they did '*he *ortoise and the -are.' It could only be the hare who acted the way he did, bo#bastic and boastful, yet talented. *hat was good clear characteri1ation. *he tortoise was definitely staged as a stu!id guy who could good"naturedly be taken ad%antage of. Actually he won by default. But this was the kind of characteri1ation that &alt insisted on. If anybody else had done '*he *ortoise and the -are' it would all ha%e been a series of gags about running, one after another. But not all this cle%er, boastful stuff like sto!!ing with the little girls and bragging and being ad#ired, and showing off how he could !lay tennis with hi#self. &alt would take stories and act the# out, kill you with laughing they were so funny. And there it would be. ou'd ha%e the feeling. ou'd know e$actly what he wanted. &alt could ha%e been a great actor, or a co#edian. *hat's what #ade his !ictures great. And the characteri1ations in Snow (hite were beautiful. Just think, taking each one of those dwar%es and #aking each one an entirely different !ersonality. It was 3ust unheard ofB
ADAMSON

&here did .cra!!y co#e fro#,

HUEMER

I felt that a little boy would be a good character. *hey needed a rounded character which would be a!!ealing. *hen we could do things with hi#. 5ike once when he was washing he !ut a towel in his ear on one side then !ulled it out all black on the other side. ou know, kids get dirty. *he %ery fact that no one else was doing a little boy see#ed an ad%antage.
ADAMSON

&hy do you feel the series didn't work out,

HUEMER

*hey weren't worked out story"wise as well as )isney's. /o #atter what you say, it co#es down to this: '*he !lay's the thing.' &alt worked out his stories down to the last blink of the eye. 4n the outside we #ight do little !re"sketches, but there was no ti#e for real analysis. *hat's what &alt was able to do, gi%e ti#e to these things, because he had the #oney co#ing in on his licensee !ro3ects already. &e worked on a !retty short budget8 we had to ha%e one of these e%ery two weeks. &e'd co#e back at night so#eti#es 3ust to talk about the stories and sa%e ani#ation ti#e. *hey tried that till we rebelled. /obody wanted to do it. I don't know how other studios o!erated8 I guess they were #ore or less alike. /obody could !ut the #eticulous care that &alt !ut into the stories, the !erfectionis#. *he in%enti%eness that he su!!lied wasn't co#ing out of anybody else. -e was there to do it. -e was one of the greatest story #inds e%er. And you can see that not ha%ing hi# on a series like .cra!!y would #ake all the difference in the world. I, as one of the story #en on .cra!!y, certainly can't co#!are #yself to &alt. .cra!!y still e$ists on fil# so#ewhere. 'y son teased #e with one. &e all went to work for )isney as dedicated !eo!le who a!!reciated what he was trying to do and felt we were in on so#ething historic. 5ike !eo!le who #ight ha%e hel!ed 'ichelangelo, we were working with a thing that was going to last and that was going to be re#e#bered. &e were all enthusiastic and had what we thought was a beautiful studio. *his #ade you feel good. :%ery once in a while, &alt would throw a luncheon in a little dining roo# with a stained glass window and a long table down the #iddle. &e'd discuss the ne$t story, so#eti#es !resented by the author, and were in%ited to critici1e or to add i#!ro%e#ents. All this was sti#ulating and wonderful. &e had classes to i#!ro%e our drawing, and 2rofessor 'arko%in, who was teaching cine#atogra!hy down at <.(, ga%e us lectures about !icture" #aking and analysis.
ADAMSON

About what, (ine#atogra!hy,

HUEMER

About cartoons and what we were doing. Actually he knew nothing about it, but &alt #eant well. -e would ask us things on the side. ou know what a !lu#ber's friend is,
ADAMSON

It's a !lunger, isn't it,

HUEMER

:$actly. -e asked one day, 'I don't understand. *hey kee! taking about the !lu#ber's friend. &ho is this friend of the !lu#ber,'
ADAMSON

&ho talked about the !lu#ber's friend at &alt )isney studios.

HUEMER

4h, we had one in e%ery !icture. *his is what got caught on the duck's hide +uarters or his head, and 'ickey was always using a !lunger. &alt liked those earthy things, you know.
ADAMSON

Just to finish u!, e$!lain to #e how they synchroni1ed #usic with action back in 19A9.
HUEMER

*here's a s!ace alongside the i#age where the track should be, right, It's e#!ty when there's no track, so there's a s!ace. ou 3ust ran this fil# through the ca#era, and you !hotogra!hed a baton, the way you wanted, e%ery four fra#es it was u!, e%ery four down, whate%er the beat was. .o it was ani#ated and you !hotogra!hed the whole cartoon this way. It was !hotogra!hed se!arately, and according to the e$!osures sheet you'd know what the beat was su!!osed to be. &hen it was !ro3ected with the #atte o!en on the !ro3ector, you could see this baton bouncing u! and down. *he #usic director watched it and synched the score to that beat. *hat was the 6leischer !rocess8 but )isney didn't use that. -e had clicks which you heard by ear!hone. ou #ade a loo! of fil#, then you !unched the soundtrack so that it #ade a click e%ery four, fi%e, or si$ fra#es. *he #usic director had ear!hones and he directed to. Auto#atically, it fit the !icture. *hey were eight, ten, twel%e a second8 I don't think they %aried #uch fro# those. *hey still do

this. ou ani#ate a scene to an eight beat, so when you !lay an eight beat in your ear it will fit. 4f course, there's #ore to it than that. *hey ha%e bar sheets and the #usic has to be written to accentuate the !ositi%e.
ADAMSON

)o you want to bring it to an end now,

HUEMER

eah, why don't we, I'# getting hungry.

ADAMSON

0oodnight, (het.
HUEMER

-a%e you got enough, 0oodnight, er...6rank, 5ouie, *o#, JoeB