Documentos de Académico
Documentos de Profesional
Documentos de Cultura
th
2013-
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Kenneth Ortega (Director on TII tour)
The Judge: Before we start with the witnesses, I was going to ask -- and not because the jurors have
asked, but I want to advise them as to a time estimate. So when do you think the case will be submitted
to them? Because they may be thinking about it, and they may be hesitant to ask, so I figured I'd ask
you, so --
Mr. Putnam. We're hoping to be done by the beginning of September, your honor.
The Judge: Beginning of September?
Ms. Bina. It gets tricky once we move into September. As you recall, there are about two court days a
week. September could jump away very quickly, but we're trying very hard to stay on schedule.
Mr. Panish. Actually, I looked at the calendar, and after tomorrow, there are 9 1/2 days in august of
court. And then the first week of September there are, according to the last revision of the calendar,
there are two days, so that would be 11 1/2 days. And then the next week, there are also two days. So as
of September 12th, excluding the next two days, according to the calendar, that would leave
The Judge: So what you're saying is, if there is a rebuttal, it will likely commence on the 16th? Is that
kind of what we're hearing?
Mr. Panish. Well, it's up to them. I just need to know when I need to be ready. I don't know when
they'll finish. They say mid September. I mean, I don't know. First, initially, they thought august, and I
thought maybe mid September just because the way things are going. And seems that they seem to
think, at least as of today, mid September. But, you know, that's obviously a moving target.
Ms. Bina. Right.
The Judge: Just want to give them a target date. I'm sure they're wondering.
Mr. Panish. So I would say -- and the question is when will it be submitted to the jury? So we have to
do instructions, verdict forms --
Ms. Bina. Sure rebuttal.
Mr. Panish. -- argument of counsel. I would throw that back to them. They know that better than I
would.
Ms. Bina. We don't know how long rebuttal is.
Mr. Panish. Well, right now we have four witnesses, so it depends. They're short, obviously. I mean, I
would say -- I don't know. If they finished on the 12th --
The Judge: If defense finished on the 12th --
Mr. Panish. Yeah. Oh, actually, I take that back, because my calendar says that the 19th and 20th,
actually, it's been crossed off. So there's actually 4 1/2 days that week. I assume the 19th and 20th on
my thing now have been crossed off.
Ms. Bina. We got those days back and two days off the next week instead.
Mr. Panish. So those are in. So we have a full week -- you know, I don't know how to --
The Judge: All right. I'll tell them through September, then.
Mr. Boyle. Okay. Might be able to approximate mid September.
Mr. Panish. Mid to late September. How about that?
Ms. Bina. Your honor, we really are trying to keep things as narrow as possible.
The Judge: I know. I'm not hurrying anybody. I'm not blaming anybody. I just want them to know. I
just want them to know that I'm cognizant. They may be wondering. Nobody's said anything to them,
and they might be hesitant to say it because they don't want to appear as though they're trying to push
anybody or be critical of anybody. And so they might be reserved in that regard, so I'm taking it upon
myself to find out when they can expect the case to be submitted to them. So that's --
Mr. Boyle. Do you remember what we told them the last time they asked?
Mr. Panish. Mid September.
Mr. Boyle. Okay.
Ms. Bina. I think that's what your honor told them, too.
The Judge: Okay. And the other thing before we bring them in, there are outstanding motions, and I
have given tentatives to you. Have you had a chance to look at them and think about whether you want
to argue them? Submit on them? Withdraw them? I don't know.
Mr. Panish. So we have the subpoena motion --
Mr. Boyle. We're going to sit on the ones -- we're going to submit on your honor's tentatives.
The Judge: The subpoena motion and then there's the Marcus motion.
Ms. Bina. Right. And, your honor, I think the plan on the Marcus motion is largely to submit on the
tentative. We're working to see whether there's an edited version of the deposition that can be used. I
think that they're planning on reaching out to plaintiffs' counsel on that, so --
The Judge: Okay.
Ms. Bina. -- there might be some limited argument on the scope of your honor's order was, depending
on whether we can agree or not. But that's all we would address, and if they're -- on the Ribera motion,
we would submit on that as well.
The Judge: Well, the thing on the Ribera motion is that you should talk to each other, come up with a
date by which --
Mr. Boyle. I think that's already happening. I think Ms. Strong is talking to Ms. Ribera.
The Judge: Just let me know, because --
Ms. Bina. We e-mailed yesterday asking whether they are going to stand on ribera, and it sounds like
they are.
Mr. Boyle. Yeah. I think Ms. Ribera is going to produce stuff. And if everything's okay, we should be
okay. And if there's an issue whether the production is enough, then maybe we'll have an issue.
Hopefully not.
Ms. Bina. Right. And similarly, on Marcus, not -- we're not planning to bite on the whole tentative at
this point, but there may be some questions as to scope.
The Judge: Kind of like designations, if things come up, then we'll talk about it.
Ms. Bina. Exactly, your honor. And I know they're working on that at the moment with that goal.
Mr. Boyle. Our position on that is we agree with the court's first, not the alternative rulings. But we'll
see.
Ms. Bina. It makes sense to me to confer first, I think.
The Judge: Which brings up the designations on Slavit. You were right. It went really quickly, but I
did move on to the second one, which was Gordon.
Ms. Bina. Gordon or Adams, your honor. Either one.
Mr. Panish. But I think we're okay for this week, because Jorrie should be the morning on Friday, and
at least two hours plus of ruled-on videos and Slavit.
Ms. Bina. And Mr. Boyle just suggested to me that he thinks it's a good idea to see if we can agree on
Slavit. If not, a very short argument on it tomorrow, and then, you know, obviously getting further
designations done is helpful, but I think for tomorrow we're good already.
The Judge: All right. I'm just trying to keep up with you, and you keep up with me.
Ms. Bina. I appreciate that.
The Judge: I don't want you to say, "gee, we don't have any witnesses because, judge, you didn't do
what you said you were going to do."
Mr. Panish. And then just since we're talking about scheduling, and I know Mr. Putnam -- whatever
happens today is going to happen. If Mr. Ortega doesn't finish cross and redirect, I know he's available
next Wednesday, Thursday or Friday. So one of those days -- I assume Wednesday would be the
soonest. If he doesn't finish, he should come back.
Ms. Bina. And, again, your honor, we're still working on the scheduling for some other witnesses, but
we are planning on trying to finish Mr. Ortega today, at least on plaintiffs' case, and bring him back at
some point.
Mr. Panish. If he doesn't finish as to our case, I would ask that he come back on Wednesday. That
works with his schedule. So finish him, and they can bring him back when they need to.
The Judge: We can talk about that.
Mr. Panish. But I know we all know he can't come back tomorrow.
The Judge: Okay. Bring the jury in.
(the jury entered the courtroom at 10:11 a.m.)
The Judge: Before we begin, I want to get through a couple of housekeeping issues with you. One,
there are technical issues with the camera. We have a live feed in a limited part of the courthouse on the
trial, and so there will be tech people running around because there's some issue with the feed. So if
you see people running around, it's because they're trying to fix this issue, and I've allowed them to do
that. But I want to let you know that that's why they're there. The other thing is that I've come up with a
new estimate concerning the trial. You're probably wondering, "gee, judge, you told us the trial was
going to end the end of August, but it looks like we're still going." I -- my estimate has now changed. I
think that we'll probably -- the case will be submitted to you toward the end of September. Now, I know
I told you the end of August. That's another month. You can write me a note if that presents a problem
for you. You know, maybe we can deal with that. I know, juror no. 7, you talked about, "gee, August is
kind of my drop-dead date." write me a note if it presents an issue; if there are certain dates you need to
revise in terms of "I need time off" or whatever. Let me know. It is what it is; okay? Okay. We'll do our
best. And the problem, too, is that when you're talking about the end of August and September, you're
talking about people coming back from vacations, kids going back to school, and there are fewer trial
dates available. September comes, kids come back to school, you're going to need days off; attorneys
need days off. Just things like that happen. So we've been good to each other; let's try to continue being
good to each other. Okay. And, lastly, we have to interrupt the testimony of Ms. Jorrie to bring back Mr.
Ortega. If you remember, we kind of cut his testimony short and said we'd bring him back. Well, he's
back. And I believe it's still plaintiffs' case, but Mr. Putnam was on cross when we let him go.
Mr. Panish. That's correct.
The Judge: So, again, we accommodate the witnesses so they can do what they need to do, bring them
back when it's convenient, and that's to keep the trial going. And so we're going to do that now. We're
going to call Mr. Ortega back. Mr. Ortega, you can retake the witness stand. Kenny Ortega, recalled as
a witness by the plaintiffs, was previously sworn and testified as follows:
The Judge: And you don't need to be re-sworn as long as you recall you are still under oath.
The witness: yes, ma'am.
The Judge: You remember that? Okay. Thank you.
The witness: thank you, your honor.
The Judge: Thank you. You may be seated. Thank you. And I think we had 5 or 10 minutes of cross
before, so you've got a whole lot left; right?
Mr. Putnam. I have a fair amount left.
Cross-examination (resumed) by Mr. Putnam:
Q. I apologize, Mr. Ortega. I'd like to thank you for coming back. Thank you.
A. Thank you.
Q. Like a lot of people right now, I'm suffering from a cold. So if you can't hear me, let me know and
I'll try to talk louder; okay?
A. And I'm on the other end of it, so --
A. I was only contracted and we were only focused on the London production at this time.
Q. And is that because whether it went on or not was uncertain at this point?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, going on, sir, if you turn to page 12,729-003, and I'll tell you that's sort of where the signatures
are (indicating). Do you see that, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Whose signature is there for both the KO company and for the employee, Kenny Ortega?
A. My signature.
Q. On both of those lines; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So you were signing on behalf of your company?
A. Yes.
Q. And on behalf of yourself individually?
A. Yes.
Q. And then it goes on to say, "AEG Live productions company." do you know whose signature that is?
A. I can't make it out.
Q. Did you have an understanding that it was signed by somebody at AEG Live productions?
A. I would have assumed, yes.
Q. Okay. And at the top, it says, "executed as of April 26th, 2009." do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember that that was the date on which you signed it?
A. It appears to be, yes.
Q. Now, you were asked a question by Mr. Panish about payment. What he asked you, he said: "even
though you didn't sign this agreement until April 26th, were you paid for the work you did before
signing the agreement?" do you remember that question?
A. Yes.
Q. And your answer was that you had an understanding that you were; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. But when were you paid? Were you paid before or after you signed?
A. From the papers that were put in front of me at the deposition, I believe I was paid in advance of
signing.
Q. In advance of signing?
A. I think so.
Q. Let me show you those documents, if I can, sir.
A. Okay.
Q. And let me just ask you about it.
A. Sure.
Q. At your deposition you were uncertain as to whether you were paid; correct?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. And then you were showed certain documents, and that refreshed your recollection as to whether
you were paid?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. I'm going to show you that same document, if I can, sir. Exhibit 6239.
Mr. Putnam. May I approach, your honor?
The Judge: Yes.
Mr. Putnam. And if I may direct him, your honor, because it's long. Here and here (indicating).
The witness: thank you.
Mr. Putnam. Thank you, your honor.
The Judge: Thank you.
Q. now, take a minute to look at that, Mr. Ortega, and tell me if that's the document that refreshed
your recollection at the depo.
A. (reviewing document.) yes.
Q. Is that the --
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. And does that again refresh your recollection as to whether you were paid before or after you signed
the document?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. When were you paid, sir?
A. May 11th, 2009.
Q. So that would be after you signed the agreement; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So if Mr. Panish asked you a question that indicated you were paid for your services that you
performed prior to signing, you were not paid for those until after you executed the agreement; correct?
A. Yes. As per these documents, yes.
Q. Now, I have a question about that, sir. You signed on the 25th, you weren't paid until after that
period. Did you have an understanding as to whether you would be paid anything if you hadn't reached
an agreement and signed the document?
A. I don't believe so.
Q. You would not have been paid; correct?
A. I don't believe so.
Q. And is that something that's happened to you before, sir, in the entertainment business? Where
you've worked on a project --
A. I've put myself -- I've allowed myself to be in that situation a number of times.
Q. And to be clear, what is that situation?
A. What I call "working in good faith."
Q. Okay. So you were working on a project, and it doesn't go forward with you, and you end up not
being paid for that period?
A. I can't think of any specific example of that, but I'm sure, in my 40-something years, that that has
occurred, yeah.
Q. Well, let me ask you a question: have you ever gone and worked developing a movie that you then
went and pitched to a studio and ended up not being hired for that movie?
A. Yes.
Q. And in that instance, the work that you did for that pitch, were you paid for it?
A. No.
Q. And is that something that surprises you?
A. No. It's sort of common in the industry.
Q. And so it's something that you just expect, if you don't reach an agreement and don't sign it, then
you won't be paid for the work that you've put in theretofore; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. But here you reached an agreement, signed it, and then you were paid; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Now, I want to go on a little bit further with the agreement, if I can, sir, and I have some
specific pages. Just a second. All right. If you could go to 0005.
A. On the first sheet or the --
Q. On your agreement. And if you look, it should be back on the fifth page.
A. Yes.
Q. You see that, sir?
Mr. Putnam. And, pam, could we go down to paragraph 3, please?
Q. now, Mr. Ortega, you were asked questions about this paragraph. This is the paragraph that
indicates how much you were to be paid; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And in this first line, it says: "the additional 200k will be guaranteed." says that will be guaranteed;
correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was your salary guaranteed for this matter, sir?
A. I'm a little confused. I'm so sorry. I don't understand.
Q. Your salary. Your salary for the work you were going to do for the 02.
A. Yes.
Q. Was that a guaranteed salary? Were you going to get that no matter what?
A. I believe so. I mean, once contracted, yes.
Q. Okay. So once you had the agreement, and it was signed, you'd be paid; right?
A. Yes.
Q. But then you were asked questions by Mr. Panish about the next paragraph, the "bonuses." you see
that?
A. Yes.
Q. And it talks about bonuses to be paid in various territories; right?
A. Yes.
Q. That doesn't have the word "guaranteed," does it?
A. No.
Q. Do you have an understanding as to why?
A. Because those shows weren't booked or guaranteed.
Q. What do you mean by that, sir?
A. They were, I think, shows that Michael would hope that we would do, but they weren't on the
schedule.
Q. So if those occurred, this is what you would be paid; correct?
A. That was the agreement, yes.
Q. And, for example, when you do a movie, sir, is it common for you to have in your agreement
something that will occur if you have -- usually bonuses at certain levels of -- if it makes $100 million,
you get a bonus; it makes 200 million, you get a bonus?
A. Yes.
Q. And that's in your agreement; right?
A. Yes.
Q. But that doesn't mean it's going to make that money, does it?
A. No.
Q. That just sets out in advance what your bonus would be in case it goes that way; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. In addition, have you ever had an agreement that says, "if you do movie 2, movie 3" -- like you did
"footloose." you did "footloose"; right?
A. Did not do "footloose," no.
Q. Oh, I thought you did.
A. No.
Q. So you did "Newsies." you did "Newsies"; right?
A. Yes.
Q. On "Newsies," in your agreement, do you recall whether it talked about if there was a Newsies 2 or
a Newsies 3?
A. I don't recall on that film, but I have had films like that.
Q. And that is in your agreement as to what you would be paid and what you'll do if that occurs;
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. But that doesn't mean it's going to occur, does it?
A. No.
Q. And what determines whether that occurs?
A. The success of the first film.
Q. So if successful, and they decide to make one, you already have in your agreement what your role
would be, and what you'll be paid; correct?
A. Sometimes.
Q. And is that what this was right here, these bonuses?
A. As I understood in my contract, yes.
Q. Now, one more question about this portion, if I can, sir. Go back to the signature page. I think that's
6. Sorry. It may not be. Sorry. 3. 0003 (indicating). Is there a line here for Mr. Jackson to sign?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you remember he then showed you your testimony from the criminal trial --
A. I do.
Q. -- where you had said something else?
A. Yes.
Q. And after looking at that, do you remember then saying you guessed it must be Paul Gongaware or
John Meglen?
A. Yes.
Q. But that wasn't your recollection; correct? That was what was shown to you as to what you had said
previously?
A. Yeah.
Q. Did it refresh your recollection?
A. It -- I had said it years ago, and so, you know, I was making an assumption that perhaps that's the
way it was. But, really, at this time, I'm still not 100 percent certain.
Q. But he showed you something, and isn't that when you said, "I guess that must be it"; right?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. Well, you also testified in other places in reference to your work with Michael Jackson; correct? For
example, you did a deposition in this case; right?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember who you said reached out to you at the deposition?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Would it refresh your recollection, what you said, if I showed it to you?
A. Sure.
Mr. Putnam. If I could please have his depo, page 75, lines 9 through 15. May I approach, your honor?
The Judge: Yes.
The witness: yes.
Q. does that refresh your recollection as to what you said in a depo of this matter?
A. Yes.
Q. And in a deposition of this matter, who did you say first reached out to you?
A. In the deposition, I remembered it as Dr. Tohme.
Q. And that's actually what you initially said here a couple weeks ago; right?
A. Yes.
Q. You also had a deposition in another matter, did you not, sir? That was about insurance, Lloyds of
London?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember what you said in that deposition, sir?
A. I don't remember these answers and questions at this time.
Q. I understand that.
Mr. Putnam. May I approach, your honor --
Q. would it refresh your recollection to look at your deposition in that matter?
A. Yes.
Mr. Putnam. May I approach, your honor?
The Judge: Yes.
Mr. Panish. Can I have the date of that?
Mr. Putnam. Page 75, lines 7 through 11. And the date is January 28th, 2013.
Mr. Panish. 2013. Is that volume 1?
Mr. Putnam. Yes, it is. Actually, the same page and same numbers.
Mr. Panish. What page, did you say?
Mr. Putnam. 75.
The witness: yes, I see it.
Q. and in that deposition -- in that deposition in another matter, who did you say first reached out to
you?
Q. And --
A. "a lot" meaning, I would guess, three days, four days a week.
Q. And is it fair to say that your concern about his attendance at these meetings, whether rehearsals,
creative meetings, didn't really begin until sometime in June?
A. Yes.
Q. Ultimately -- and I'm asking for your opinion, not legal, nothing else. Your opinion, sir.
A. Can we go back to your last question, please?
Q. Yeah. Anything.
A. To the best of my ability, you know, I remember it happening as we were leaving center stage,
moving toward the forum. I don't remember -- I can't say "June" without a calendar in front of me.
Q. And that would be May. On May 29th; okay?
A. Okay.
Q. Now, my question for you, sir -- and, again, I'm asking for your -- what you thought. Not legally.
Nothing else. Who did you consider your boss?
A. Michael.
Q. And whenever you've been asked that question, whether depositions or otherwise, haven't you
always said Michael?
Mr. Panish. Assumes facts not in evidence. Never been asked that question before.
The Judge: Depositions, you mean?
Mr. Panish. Yeah. Or anywhere.
Q. well, do you remember being asked in your deposition who your boss was?
A. I believe so, yes.
Q. Okay. And do you remember what you said?
A. I believe I said Michael.
Q. In all these meetings in this time period where you were with Mr. Jackson, can you recall a time
ever where you thought AEG Live --
A. Okay. I'm so sorry. I have to go back to that question.
Q. Absolutely.
A. Whatever I said, however I said it, you know, I thought of Michael as my partner; I didn't think of
Michael as a boss. However, I always -- you know, the final creative decisions always laid with
Michael all the years I worked with him.
Q. And that wasn't different in this instance, was it?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Now, in all the time you were working on this, did you ever feel that AEG Live ever
pressured Mr. Jackson in any way? Did you ever see them pressuring him?
A. No.
Q. And did you feel that AEG Live was supportive of Mr. Jackson during this process?
A. Yes.
Q. And why is that, sir? Why do you feel that way?
A. I just feel that they -- everything that we brought to AEG, in terms of, you know, the enormous
creative -- our enormous creative needs in order to realize the full potential of "this is it," Michael's
vision that I shared, that AEG Was very supportive in doing all they could to assist us in making those
things happen.
Q. And let's talk about that, just very briefly. This production grew and grew and grew in the time you
were working with Michael, did it not?
A. Yes, it did.
Q. And the cost of it grew and grew and grew, didn't it?
A. I would suppose it did.
Mr. Panish. I would just object on that. Foundation for this witness.
The Judge: Sustained. If he knows.
Q. did you go and ask Mr. Gongaware for more and more creative things to be added to the show?
A. Yes.
Q. And, again, I think -- and he never said "no," did he?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. And as a result you and Mr. Jackson worked together over months to build the show; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you kept adding elements from the time you began in February until the time that you were
about to go to the 02; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And was there ever a time that anybody at AEG Live came to you and said, "you've got to stop. This
is getting too big and too expensive"?
A. Not in those words, no.
Q. Well, tell me, what they did do?
A. Well, I think as professionals, they may have said, "really? Do you need this? Is this something you
really feel is going to benefit? Don't you believe we have enough here?" I think that, you know, that
they felt that we were getting to a place where they would like to have a ceiling, you know, because it
was a pretty fat budget. But in the end, I always felt that Michael was getting what Michael wanted.
Q. And when you went and asked for these things, you went and asked for them because Michael
wanted them; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever ask for something that Michael said he didn't want?
A. No.
Q. All right. We'll go to the next thing. As I told you, I'm going to skip right through this; okay? Now,
the last time you were here, you testified that Dr. Murray -- you remember who Dr. Murray is?
A. Yes.
Q. -- got involved in scheduling during the week of June 15th. Do you remember speaking about that?
A. Again, I don't remember the exact day. But, yes, I do recall discussing Dr. Murray's involvement in
Michael's portion of the scheduling.
Q. And up until that point -- I'll represent to you that at the time you were testifying, we were talking
about the week of June 15th; okay? So up until that time period, was there ever any other time that
you're aware of that Dr. Conrad Murray had anything to do with Michael's scheduling?
A. No.
Q. So this was a new thing?
A. Yes.
Mr. Panish. Well, object to foundation as to -- he said he didn't know. That's fine. But whether it's new
you?
A. No.
Q. Was he ever in a scheduling meeting with you?
A. No.
Q. Is he someone who you understood had any role in scheduling?
A. No.
Q. What was your understanding as to Mr. Phillips's role at the time in terms of scheduling? What did
you understand?
A. I looked at Mr. Phillips as, you know, the promoter, Michael's promoting partner and producing
partner and who had an investment in this production and who wanted to make sure that it was --
everything was being taken care of that needed to be taken care of. And I think at that stage of the
game, Mr. Phillips probably took on an overseeing position to make sure that, you know, a schedule
was being designed that was responsible for Michael.
Q. When you say "responsible for Michael," what do you mean?
A. Just that Michael had many things going on that were brought to my attention, you know, aside from
the obvious, family, and that what they were trying to do was to create a schedule that could factor in
all of Michael's needs and still enable him to be able to come to rehearsal.
Q. Now, assume for a moment, an assumption -- so I'm asking you to assume something. Assume Mr.
Phillips came here. Assume he testified. And assume in his testimony he said he was not responsible for
Mr. Jackson's rehearsal or attendance schedule and that Mr. Woolley's e-mail was mistaken. Would that
surprise you?
Mr. Panish. There's no foundation, "would it surprise him."
The Judge: Overruled.
Mr. Panish. Also irrelevant, whether it would surprise him or not, whether Mr. Phillips said that
someone else is mistaken.
The Judge: Overruled.
Q. would that surprise you, sir?
A. One more time with the question.
Q. Absolutely. Assume for a moment that Randy Phillips came here and testified, and during that
testimony, he said that he was not responsible for Mr. Jackson's rehearsal or attendance schedule,
wasn't part of his job, and Mr. Woolley's e-mail was mistaken. Would that surprise you, sir?
A. No.
Q. And did you ever work with Mr. Phillips in any way to arrange for Mr. Jackson's scheduling?
A. I didn't work with him to arrange scheduling, no.
Q. All right. Next. We're going through your testimony. Now, you were asked a number of questions
about June 19th. Do you remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. And obviously you remember June 19th, what occurred that date?
A. I'll always remember June 19th.
Q. Terrible day. And you were asked about your observations that day, what you observed. What you
actually saw. Do you remember being asked those questions?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, do you remember -- in your opinion, did you ever consider, when you saw Mr. Jackson, that it
looked like he might have a really bad flu? And if I can stop you for a moment. At that time.
A. On June 19th?
Q. Yeah. In other words, what's different, obviously, is we're now looking back. I'm not asking that. At
that time.
A. A really bad flu?
Q. Uh-huh.
A. I suppose I might have suggested that it could have looked that way. It was -- it would have been a
very bad flu.
Q. And in fact, I was going to ask you that. You in fact said, the only way you thought you could
describe it is like when you have a really bad flu; right?
A. Very bad flu.
Q. Do you remember saying that, sir?
A. I don't. But I would say, if I did, yeah, I don't know that it was necessarily the best way of
describing.
Q. Because it was bad; right?
A. Yeah, it was bad.
Q. And when you were here, you talked about the idea that his condition improved over the course of
that evening; correct?
A. Yeah, a little.
Q. And he became more articulate?
A. Yes.
Q. More coherent?
A. Yes.
Q. He warmed up?
A. Uhm, yes, somewhat.
Q. He became more engaged?
A. Yes.
Q. And he seemed calmer?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you feel relieved over the course of the evening that he seemed to be getting better?
A. I felt somewhat calmer by the time he left than when I -- when he first arrived.
Q. But you were still concerned?
A. Absolutely.
Q. And that's why you sent the e-mail; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you ever think that Mr. Jackson's condition that evening had anything to do with drugs?
A. It didn't appear to me. Didn't appear to me that it was drugs. It appeared to me that it was something
else. Emotional, physical.
Q. So at the time --
A. I'm not a doctor, I'm just --
Q. And I know that, sir. But you also were actually there.
A. Yes.
A. Yes.
Q. And you talked last time about the fact that they sent the material off to Mr. Jackson's various
representatives. You remember that? That -- Randy Phillips let his representatives know. I was very
quick. We had 20 minutes.
A. I'm sorry. One more time with the question.
Q. Sure. Do you remember talking last time, and I said to you, "if I were to represent to you that Randy
Phillips sent it off to Mr. Jackson's lawyers, et cetera, I asked you if you thought that was the
responsible and right thing to do." you remember that?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. And then did you also think it was the responsible and right thing to do, to immediately have a
meeting with Mr. Jackson the next day?
A. Yes.
Q. And not only did you have a meeting, you had a meeting where his personal physician was there;
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. In your opinion, did that seem like an immediate response?
A. Pretty close to immediate, yes.
Q. I mean, did you feel they were dilly-dallying --
A. No.
Q. -- or delaying in some way?
A. No.
Q. Now, let's go to the next day. That day was June 20th; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you testified last time that you were there, Dr. Conrad Murray was there, Michael Jackson was
there, and Randy Phillips was there; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you said that in that meeting Dr. Conrad Murray appeared angry, started to like accuse you of
things; right?
A. Yes.
Q. He told you, you shouldn't be an amateur doctor; right?
A. Yes.
Q. You shouldn't be an amateur psychologist?
A. Yes.
Q. Told you to stay out of it and leave Mr. Jackson's health to him?
A. Yes.
Q. And he went on to say that Mr. Jackson was physically capable of handling the show; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. He said that Mr. Jackson was emotionally capable of handling the show?
A. Yes.
Q. And last time you said that at that point, Mr. Jackson stepped into the conversation. You remember
that?
A. Yes.
Q. And you said that Mr. Jackson told you he was ready to take the reins?
A. Yes.
Q. He told you not to worry?
A. Yes.
Q. He thanked you for worrying but told you not to be afraid?
A. Yes.
Q. And he assured you he was fine; right?
A. Pardon me?
Q. He assured you that he was fine? Michael Jackson.
A. I didn't feel assured.
Q. I was going to go there next. But he said he tried to assure you that he was fine?
A. He said -- I just remember him saying, "don't leave me. I'm going to take the reins. You'll see. We
can do this," you know. And he did seem absolutely stronger and committed.
Q. On the 20th?
A. On that moment, yeah. At that moment.
Q. But you were still concerned; right?
A. Yes.
Q. Because you had seen him the evening before where he did not look well?
A. Yes.
Q. But now, much like you said, like over the course of the 19th, the evening, he was getting better. He
seemed a lot better on the 20th, didn't he?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you then said something last time I wanted to ask you about. You said there was something
that made you uncomfortable at the meeting. And you said that Dr. Murray suggested that Mr. Jackson
told him one thing and then was saying another; is that correct?
A. Something like that.
Q. Explain that to me. What happened?
A. Well, when Dr. Murray was accusing me of -- he started out by saying I had no -- I'm paraphrasing
-- no right to not allow Michael to rehearse that night.
Q. On the 19th?
A. On the 19th. I had no right to not allow Michael to rehearse that night and that I had no right to send
him home. And I was, like, "wait a minute. That's not at all what happened." and I explained what
happened. And he looked at Michael and said, "but that's not how Michael presented it to me." and then
Michael said, "oh, no, no, no, no." and there was this sort of moment where there was, "wait a minute,
what's going on?" and I was, like, "Michael, tell him. I didn't forbid you." I didn't forbid Michael
anything. Michael said, "I want to stay. I want someone else to do the show, and I want to sit with you
and watch." and when it was time for Michael to leave, it was my suggestion, and he said, "would that
be all right?" and I said, "yes. Go home. Tuck your children in," you know. "feel better," you know.
And so I was hurt because I didn't forbid him anything. I did think it was the right thing that he didn't
go on stage. I did think it was the right thing that he went home. And that was the, what I would call,
the sort of misunderstanding or awkward moment for me. Nevertheless, I was told, as you said, to be
the director and to quit concerning myself with Michael's health; that it wasn't my responsibility.
Q. But he told you all these things prior to this uncomfortable moment; right?
A. They led up. I think he started in -- I think it probably started with, "you had no right to keep
Michael from performing that night." and I was, like, "wait a minute." and so I debated that, you know.
And I was like, "that's not what happened. It's a different story." then we moved past that, and then I
sort of got lectured.
Q. And Dr. Conrad Murray wasn't there on the 19th; right?
A. No.
Q. And was it your impression, then, that Michael Jackson had told him something different than what
had actually occurred?
A. Or that he misunderstood Michael.
The Judge: I'm sorry. That Mr. Jackson misunderstood or that Conrad Murray misunderstood what?
The witness: I would like to think that Michael would never do anything to set me up in that way. I
think that Mr. Murray probably misunderstood Michael. That's what I felt. The way that Michael
looked at me and the way that he responded. And Michael clarified, by the way, in that meeting. He
clarified, right in front of everyone, that in fact it wasn't the way it went down and that what I was
saying was in fact the way that it went down.
Q. did you discuss anything about drugs in that meeting?
A. No.
Q. Did Michael Jackson tell you how he was being treated by Dr. Conrad Murray at that meeting?
A. No.
Q. Did he tell you what had been wrong with him the night before?
A. No.
Q. Did he offer any kind of explanation for his condition the evening before that resulted in this
meeting the next day?
A. No.
Q. Did you ask him?
A. No.
Q. Did you ask Dr. Conrad Murray what was wrong with Michael Jackson the night before? Don't give
me the answer. I'm just asking you if you asked him.
A. No.
Q. Did he offer any explanation as to what was wrong with Mr. Jackson the night before? Don't tell me
what it was, if he did. I'm asking, did he offer any?
A. Yes.
Q. Before you agreed to do that -- strike that. Was it Michael Jackson who approached you and asked
you to help him with that?
A. Through someone else.
Q. Do you remember who it was through?
A. If I'm not mistaken, it was the director of the show, or it could have been someone else. But as I best
recall, I believe it was the director of the show that placed a call and said that "Michael would really
appreciate it if you could come and be here."
Q. And just to remind everyone, this was the one where you came on kind of as a consultant because
Mr. Jackson was concerned?
A. For lack of a better way of calling it. I don't even know if I had a title. I believe Michael had called
me in. He was unhappy with the way things were running, and he wanted me to be there, and he
wanted me to look at what was going on.
Q. And you agreed to do that; right?
A. Yes.
Q. And when you did, did you ask Mr. Jackson about his rehab stint shortly before?
A. No.
Q. Did you ask him at that point anything about his drug use?
A. No.
Q. Did he talk to you about it in any measure?
A. No.
Q. Before you agreed to go help him with this, did you think about maybe not doing it because he had
gone to rehab?
A. No.
Q. And why not?
A. Because he came out of rehab.
Q. And what does that mean to you?
A. That he was moving on with his life and in health, I would have hoped.
Q. So as far as you were concerned, there was no reason not to help him with HBO; correct?
A. Of course not.
Q. And you did feel you were helping him with that; correct?
A. I was trying to, yeah.
Q. Now, you said you never discussed drugs in any measure with Mr. Jackson; right?
A. Correct.
Q. Did you ever talk to him about nutrition?
A. As a general idea.
Q. What about physical therapy?
A. Yes.
Q. His general health?
A. Just as a performing artist, you know, are you taking -- are you focusing on all of those things that,
you know, artists need to focus on when they're in production.
Q. And so you had talked to him about nourishment and health?
A. Yes.
Q. Stretching and sleep?
A. Yes.
Q. And would you express concern when you spoke to him that maybe he wasn't doing all those things
the way he should be?
Mr. Panish. Sounds vague as to time.
Mr. Putnam. At any time.
Mr. Panish. Well, it's overbroad, then.
The Judge: Sustained.
Q. you said that you did speak with him about these things; correct? Did you speak with him about
these things when you were working with him on the "Dangerous" tour?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Couple very quick questions about that. So when you come on in that role, how long do you stay
with the tour? Do you go through the whole tour? Stay with it from '92 to '93?
A. No.
Q. What do you generally do?
A. Depending on -- I usually like to stay until I know that everything is working and that it's running to
the satisfaction of all the players; that the promoters are happy, and, of course, the artist is happy and
that I'm happy. And so sometimes that can be three or four shows; sometimes that's six or eight shows.
It really is dependent on the production.
Q. And just to make sure I understand, so sometime prior to the beginning of the "dangerous" tour, you
came on and worked with Mr. Jackson creating that tour?
A. Yes.
Q. And then did you stay on for the first three, eight shows?
A. Yes. Something in there, yes, as I recall.
Q. And as the tour continues without you, you go home?
A. Yes.
Q. And as we noted, both when you were here last time, and we talked about it briefly a moment ago,
that was the tour that ended with Mr. Jackson going to rehab, but you weren't there when that
happened; correct?
A. No.
Q. At the time that you were there, when you were working with Mr. Jackson preparing for the
"dangerous" tour, did you ever have any concern that he might be using drugs?
A. No. Not that I recall.
Q. Do you believe that if you had thought that, it would be something that you would recall?
Mr. Panish. Speculation.
The Judge: Overruled.
The witness: yes.
Q. and another question on that. When you were preparing -- when you were rehearsing, do you recall
if this was a time that Mr. Jackson lived at Neverland?
A. I believe he did live there, yes. 13489
A. Yes.
Q. So you were actually at the beacon theater. He was rehearsing?
A. Yes.
Q. And he went down?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it scary?
A. Yes.
Q. Had you ever seen him do anything like that before?
A. No.
Q. And what happened when he went down?
A. His security, and all the people that -- you know, that worked with him jumped right in very, very
quickly. And people immediately responded to get, you know, an ambulance. And everybody else kind
of just backed out of the way and gave people room. And I think we left the room before he was even --
paramedics took him.
Q. I was going to ask you that. So were you one of the people who rushed, or were you one of the
people who stood back and said, "give the people room to do what they had to do"?
A. No. I think there was a security group of people that worked with Michael at that time that were
very, very, very close to him. And they immediately asked everybody to get out of the way, you know.
And -- which is understandable. And they jumped right in there, and we just all sort of moved back out
of the way.
Q. And is it fair to say, then, that you didn't go talk to Mr. Jackson after this happened --
A. No.
Q. -- at the beacon?
A. No.
Q. Did you go -- he went to the hospital; is that correct? He went to the hospital?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you go to the hospital?
A. No.
Q. And that's one year later; right? Did Mr. Jackson ask you to come on board?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was your role there, sir?
A. Same. Director. Probably creative, you know, like a -- I believe that's where we really started our
creative partnership. Envisioning the show together. Co-directing.
Q. And did that occur here in Los Angeles again?
A. Yes.
Q. And during that, those rehearsals, did you ever rehearse up at Neverland?
A. No.
Q. And I'd like to ask: "dangerous," was this another example where you came on, helped start with the
show, and stayed on for several concerts of the tour?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, this is a year after the HBO -- so this is
A. Year after the HBO collapse and three years after Mr. Jackson went into rehab; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So when Mr. Jackson asked you to come on board to do this, did you have any concerns that he
might be doing drugs again?
A. Well, I didn't know that he was doing drugs.
Q. So when he went to rehab, what did you understand he had gone to rehab for?
A. Well, I'd read different stories. I heard that it was pain medication, and -- but, again, he came out of
rehab, and that his -- and his spell at HBO did not suggest to me that it was -- I mean, I was watching a
man who was anxious and stressed and unhappy, and I figured that that's what it was related to, his
faint or collapse. So when he invited me to be a part of "history," I always wanted to work with
Michael, you know.
Q. Were you excited?
A. I always bet on him.
Q. What do you mean by that?
A. I just believed in him and believed he would rise to the occasion.
A. Or it could have -- honestly, now you get me in trouble, because I'm not sure where the R.F.K. And
the European charity shows lined up with the rest of our touring.
Q. I will check at lunch.
A. Correct.
Q. And see if that refreshes. And from Munich, when you were rehearsing --
A. I'm sorry.
Q. -- wherever it was in Europe --
A. So when you said, "where did you rehearse for that," I thought you were talking about for the
charity event.
Q. Got it.
A. Right. We would always just rehearse where the charity was. The "History" tour was rehearsed in
Los Angeles, and then the technical and dress rehearsals would have happened in the opening city that
we would have performed in.
Q. So in '99 when you were -- I believe it was Munich, but I will check.
A. Okay.
Q. -- do you remember having any concerns about Mr. Jackson's health at that time?
A. I don't recall having any concerns.
Q. Do you recall having any concerns about his emotional well-being?
A. No.
Q. And what about any concerns that perhaps there was an issue with drugs?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. And I was just told that Munich was with -- was this one-off for the charity in 1999.
A. Okay. But that was not the bridge, was it?
Q. Was not? Okay. That, I can't tell you. I thought it was.
A. Munich was Andrea Bocelli, Michael and Andrea Bocelli, and that was a charity.
Q. Okay. And, again, no concern at that time?
A. No.
Q. And then after that, you didn't work with Mr. Jackson again until the "this is it" tour; correct?
A. As I recall, yes.
Q. Now, when you got word that Mr. Jackson wanted you for the "this is it" tour, were you worried
about drugs at all?
A. No. I had seen him.
Q. Where did you see him?
A. Had dinner with him a couple of times. Brought the children to see "high school musical" live. Went
to the movies. And once again, he was just really excited, really determined, feeling ready, desiring.
And not knowing yet when it was going to happen or what it was going to be, but sort of feeling like
something -- he was ready to do something.
Q. I want to ask you about that, because you mentioned it in one of your depositions that you met a
couple times, and you all had discussed working at some point. Could you tell me a little bit about that?
A. Yeah. When I was in Las Vegas working on a project there, Michael joined me for dinner on a
couple of occasions, and they were just friendly dinners. But if we discussed anything, it was his desire
to go back out. He wanted to get it done, wanted to do it. And it was always, whenever we got together
-- which was rare -- that if we talked about anything, I think during that pre-period of "this is it," it was
just sort of an excitement that he was feeling that it was around the corner.
Q. And did you discuss at that point the idea that if it ever happened, you and he would work together?
A. Probably.
Q. You just don't recall?
A. I just don't recall.
Q. And when he talked about this, what did he say? Did he say he was dying to go back on a tour? Did
he say he wanted to perform again? What did he say?
A. That came later. In the beginning, it was -- he was being approached. He was being approached, and
I believe there were two people. One of them was a Simon -- not Simon Cowell, but Simon who is
involved in the American idol enterprise. I believe he approached Michael. I believe Mr. Wynn might
have approached Michael. And they were all looking to find something to do with him. And I think
they were kind of, maybe, focusing on Las Vegas as an idea. I remember Michael saying he didn't want
to do that; that he didn't want to do something in Las Vegas. He wanted to get out and do something for
the world.
Q. Did he explain to you why he didn't want to do Las Vegas?
A. I just -- I think the idea of sitting in Las Vegas and doing, you know, five years in a theater wasn't
attractive to him. But, you know, I don't think we really got into it. I think I just sort of knew what he
meant by it.
Q. And when he discussed about going back on the road --
A. Yeah.
Q. -- did he seem excited at this point?
A. Yes.
Q. And what time period are we talking about? If "this is it" began in 2009, was this in 2008? 2007?
A. I would say '8.
Q. Okay. And did you have any reservations when he mentioned this idea of going back on the road?
A. I was happy for him.
Q. Why is that?
A. Because he had been through so much drama, and I so wanted for him to find happiness and to be
the king again.
Q. And when you say he had been through all kinds of drama, I don't want to go through it all, but
you're talking about the decade prior? The various personal things he had gone through in his life?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you have an understanding that wasdifficult for him?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. And when you talked to him about this going back on the road in 2008, did you get a sense that he
had turned the corner?
A. He seemed lit up. He was -- his children. His children, you know, lit him up.
Q. Changed his life?
A. I -- well, I mean I think the arrival of his children in his life definitely gave him something he didn't
have before. But he seemed happy. Happy to be their dad, happy to be in their life, and he seemed
exhilarated. He seemed like he was excited and like the Michael that I remembered, you know, at the
beginning of a new journey.
Q. And did that excitement continue in 2009 when you began to work with him on the "this is it" tour?
A. In the beginning.
Q. Tell me. What was he like?
A. He was unbelievable. His reasons for wanting to do the tour were, you know, extraordinary.
Michael's reasons, you know. His "raison d'tre." his reason for being. Michael always had a reason that
lived at the center of what he did. He was very conceptual and really thought out, and there was great
depth of meaning and heart and reason that existed inside the work that we did, and that's what made it
all so exciting. And he was -- he was motivated. He was motivated.
Q. And did you have any doubt in this time period we're talking about now, 2008, beginning of 2009,
that Mr. Jackson would be able to go back and do this tour?
A. No. In my head, no.
Q. And were you excited at the prospect of being a part of this as well?
A. Oh, yes.
The Judge: I think we should stop for lunch at this point.
Mr. Putnam. Okay.
LUNCH
(The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jurors):
Judge: Katherine Jackson versus AEG Live. Good afternoon. Let's continue with Mr. Ortega's cross-
examination.
Mr. Putnam: Thank you, your honor.
Continued cross-examination by Mr. Putnam:
Q. Hello, Mr. Ortega. How are you?
A. Hello.
Q. So we talked about the 20th, where you had a meeting and you were there, Randy Phillips was
there, Dr. Conrad Murray was there, and Michael was there. And did that take place at the Carolwood
home?
A. Yes.
Q. And I'll represent to you that the 20th was a Saturday. All right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, Mr. Jackson took a couple of days off after that, didn't he?
A. It was a holiday weekend if I'm not mistaken.
Q. Was it Father's Day?
A. Don't know.
Q. Don't remember? Okay. But he did come back to work on Tuesday, did he not?
A. Yes.
Q. And that was June 23rd?
A. Yes.
Q. And could you tell us a little bit of how the 23rd went? You had left him concerned on the 20th.
How was he on the 23rd?
A. He was in great spirits, ready to work.
Q. Was it a different Michael Jackson that day than the one you had seen on the 19th?
A. Completely.
Q. When you say "completely," what do you mean?
A. Well, he was just -- he seemed healthy and ready and happy, and there didn't seem to be any
leftover issues from the 19th.
Q. Were any of the things that you saw on the 19th there in front of you when you got there on the
23rd?
A. No, not that I recall, no.
Q. Anything at all? Did he seem cold? Did he seem lethargic? Ill in any way? Incoherent?
A. He was -- he always got a little chilly, but that was normal. Not chilly like he was on the 19th.
think that -- that he was in charge. He was in charge; and he was not only rehearsing, but he was
capable of having conversations with regard to other aspects of the production.
Q. And did you have those conversations?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. About what, sir?
A. The films, the effects, costumes.
Q. And isn't that what he told you he was going to do on the 20th?
A. Yeah.
Q. So when he said he was going to be in charge, take the reins, get in control of this, is that what
actually happened on the 23rd?
A. Sure appeared so.
Q. Did you wonder on the 23rd what had gone on on the 19th?
A. No. I just embraced it and was grateful for it.
Q. Did you discuss it with anyone?
A. I think we all were just so delighted, the energy in the room changed, the hope returned, and it was
a gladness and energy in the room that was real positive and optimistic.
Q. When you say the energy changed in the room, what do you mean?
A. Just that everybody felt that there was a different Michael in the room.
Q. Was this the Michael that you had seen back in 2008, the beginning of 2009, when you first
embarked on this tour?
A. I would say similar, yes.
Q. Similar how, sir?
A. Well, in the -- in the early part, Michael wasn't rehearsing and performing. Now he was
performing on the stage with the band, with other performers, and so it was -- it was the Michael that I
had been waiting to see.
Q. And did you see the Michael you'd been waiting to see on the 23rd?
A. Yeah.
Q. Were you excited?
A. So excited.
Q. Did you think that whatever problem you had on the 19th was now past you?
A. I sure hoped so.
Q. Did it appear to you that it was?
A. Seemed like it, yeah.
Q. Was Randy Phillips there, do you know?
A. I know he was there the next night. I don't know if he was there that night. I can't recall.
Q. So you know he was there the 24th, you're just not sure about the 23rd?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you say anything to Mr. Jackson that day about, you know, how amazing it was to finally
have him there?
A. I -- I didn't say it with respect -- it wasn't like a comparative thing. It was just, you know, "What a
great night. You look fantastic, you know, super excited." Just commenting on the positives that were
happening, you know, in the room and his performances, his clarity, energy, desire.
Q. Now, when you were last here, we looked at some of your emails and talked about the idea that
you were concerned that Mr. Jackson might not be able to proceed with the tour as of the 19th. Do you
remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. What about on the 23rd? Were you concerned on the 23rd that he couldn't proceed with the tour?
A. You know, again, I just embraced it and wanted to believe that it was what we were going to be
about now.
Q. And on the 23rd, did you believe that to be true?
A. Yeah, that's what I felt.
Q. Tell me about the 24th. How was he on the 24th?
A. Good.
Q. Was he as good as he was on the 23rd?
A. Almost, you know.
A. Yes, yes.
Q. And I want you to assume in this case that the testimony has been that Michael Jackson was
getting Propofol and not sleeping for 60 days. Okay? Just assume that.
Ms. Stebbins: I'll object that that misstates the testimony, your honor.
Mr. Panish: No. It's Dr. Czeisler's testimony.
Judge: Overruled.
Mr. Panish: And I want you to assume that, Mr. Ortega.
Q. And when you saw Mr. Jackson there in mid -- strike that. When you saw Mr. Jackson there the
19th, you didn't know what his problem was, right?
A. No.
Q. But the symptoms he had, did that look like someone that hadn't had sleep for a long time? Those
symptoms that you told us all about looked like someone who hadn't had sleep for a long time?
A. I think that might have been a factor in there.
Q. Okay. And then all of a sudden, you called it the miraculous recovery, right?
A. It appeared.
Q. Okay. And I want you to assume that he didn't have Propofol the last few days before he went to
the rehearsal. Okay?
A. Sure.
Ms. Stebbins: I'll object that that lacks foundation, your honor. There's been no testimony --
Mr. Panish: There's been testimony of Dr. Brown in the questions of Ms. Cahan.
Judge: Overruled.
Q. So, now, no sleep, he's doing terrible. The last few days, he gets sleep, all of a sudden, he's doing
better, right?
A. Well, I assume sleep had to be a part of it. He just looked rested.
Q. Right. But the last few days, he looked to you like he'd really had some, as you call it, real organic
sleep, right?
A. Yeah, deep sleep, you know, real sleep.
Q. Right.
A. Yeah. Rest.
Q. But before that, he didn't look like that, did he?
A. Not on the 19th.
Q. All right. And certainly if he hadn't been sleeping and he finally got some real organic sleep, that
would explain why he did better, wouldn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Ortega, let's talk about some other issues. And I'm not going to go forever. I know
you're a busy man. But I do want to cover some of the areas that Mr. Putnam was asking you about.
Okay?
A. Sure.
Q. First of all, Mr. Ortega, you've been -- you've known Mr. Jackson for a number of years, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you liked Mr. Jackson, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you also liked Travis Payne and Alif Sankey and the other people you were working with,
right?
A. Yes.
Ms. Stebbins: Your honor, I'm just going to object that all of these are leading and it's redirect.
Mr. Panish: It doesn't matter. I mean, it's --
Judge: Overruled.
Mr. Panish: Now, Mr. Ortega, first of all, counsel asked you questions about drug use.
Q. Do you remember those questions?
A. Counsel --
Q. Mr. Putnam.
A. Yes.
Q. And, sir, isn't it true that you saw Mr. Jackson at least four times under what you -- appeared to be
Q. And, sir, in the 40-year history you've been in the industry, have you ever heard of a producer
getting involved in the hiring of a doctor for an artist?
A. I haven't.
Q. That's what I'm asking. You, your knowledge.
A. No.
Q. Never heard of that?
A. Not that I recall, no.
Q. And, sir, in your 40 years in the industry, have you ever heard of a producer engaging lawyers to
negotiate contracts with doctors for an artist?
A. Not usually involved in that aspect of the business, so that would be a -- yeah.
Q. You've never heard of that, have you, sir?
A. Of --
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; lacks foundation, your honor. He's not involved in that part of the business.
Mr. Panish: He was just asked --
Judge: Sustained as to whether he's been involved in it.
Mr. Panish: Well, no.
Q. You've been involved, in 40 years, in numerous shows, haven't you?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. You talk to producers all the time?
A. Yes.
Q. You deal with artists all the time?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you ever seen or heard ever, in your 40 years, of a producer getting a lawyer to negotiate a
contract with a doctor?
A. No.
Michael?
Q. Well, I consider you an artist.
A. The artist was Michael.
Q. Okay. But they could fire Michael?
A. No.
Q. How do you know that?
A. He was their partner.
Q. Have you seen the contract?
A. No; but Michael told me that.
Q. They could fire you at any time, couldn't they, sir?
A. I think that would upset -- that would have upset Michael pretty much.
Q. I'm sure it would. But they could fire you, the producer, if --
A. I assume they could, yeah. I assume they could, yeah. Yeah, production managers are usually in --
I don't need to be reminded. We can just have a conversation.
Q. Okay. Well, this is an easy question. Isn't it true, sir, the producer could fire you if they wanted to?
Ms. Stebbins: Your honor, I'm going to object to -- ask the witness be allowed to answer questions
before being interrupted by Mr. Panish with comments like, "It's an easy question."
Judge: Sustained.
Mr. Panish: Mr. Ortega, have you testified under oath in this case that the producer could fire you if
they wanted to?
A. I assume they could give it a good try.
Q. Sir, you knew they could fire you. You've testified about that in this case, have you not?
A. I'm saying they could fire me, but I doubt that it would last more than 24 hours.
Q. All right. Well, we'll go with that.
A. Each situation is different, Mr. Panish, with all respect, and I mean that sincerely. Each producer
relationship with directors and artists all through this industry are unique. None of them are the same. I
don't think a producer could fire Tom Cruise.
A. Yes.
Q. And first of all, did you think that you were not being demanding enough of m.J.'s attendance or
causing concern with the schedule that was being imposed?
A. No.
Q. Did you -- you knew -- strike that. Would you be surprised if Mr. Woolley reported what Mr.
Gongaware told him that Randy Phillips and Dr. Murray are responsible for m.J.'s rehearsal and
attendance schedule?
A. Yes.
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; lacks foundation that Mr. Woolley was told that by Mr. Gongaware in any
way, shape or form.
Mr. Panish: Let's go down the email.
Q. Who is the first email from, sir?
A. From Paul Gongaware, doesn't say who to -- Paul -- I'm sorry. It says "Paul, any show
rescheduling going on that bob Taylor needs to be made aware of? Timm." oh, it's from Timm Woolley.
Excuse me.
Q. Did you know who Mr. Woolley was, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you think Mr. Woolley was lying in that email?
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; lacks foundation.
Mr. Panish: They asked the same question about Mr. Phillips.
Ms. Stebbins: Your honor, there's no foundation that this witness has any familiarity with this email.
Plaintiffs
Questioned him about it once already. But in terms of evaluating where Mr. Woolley got his
information or whether it was credible or not, that's not something this witness can do.
Mr. Panish: They asked about Mr. Phillips, the same question. Let's go back and see what it says.
Q. Do you remember being asked the question whether you thought Mr. Phillips was lying? Do you
remember those questions, sir?
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; misstates the testimony. I don't think there were any such questions.
Judge: I thought the question was "would you be surprised that."
Ms. Stebbins: Yes.
A. Yes.
Q. And you were asked about your criminal testimony, which is in the year 2010, by Mr. Putnam,
correct? Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And in 2009, you testified under oath in the criminal case, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you testify at that time that Paul Gongaware was the first one that contacted you and then
Michael called you after that?
A. I believe you showed that as my testimony, yes.
Q. Okay. Was that truthful testimony that you gave there, sir?
A. It was -- it was to the best of my ability at that time, yes.
Q. Okay. Fair enough. And, sir, your manager, when they were negotiating with AEG Live, despite
the fact -- despite the fact that Michael wanted you, AEG Live drew the line in the sand at one point,
didn't they?
Ms. Stebbins: Objection obje
ction; lacks foundation.
Judge: Overruled on that.
Ms. Stebbins: Compound.
Judge: No.
A. Little vague, though, what you mean by drew the line in the sand in connection with --
Mr. Panish: Okay.
Q. AEG told you -- I'll rephrase it.
A. I think I know what you meant.
Judge: If he understands it, no problem.
Mr. Panish: Go ahead.
The witness: I think at a certain point, there was a standstill.
Q. And they said, "Sorry, we can't work it out," right?
A. I think they said something more like, "It's beyond us, it would have to go to Michael to go
beyond this point."
Q. Well, do you remember me showing you an email about that, sir, last time?
A. I don't.
Mr. Panish: Let me see if I can find that one for you, sir.
Ms. Stebbins: Also, your honor, just for the record, the trial of Dr. Murray was in 2011, not 2010.
Mr. Panish: Okay. Whatever you say, I'll accept it.
Q. Remember, your agent -- I questioned you about this last time?
A. I remember I was talking about this last time, yes.
Q. And your agent was negotiating with -- Ms. McDonald; is that right?
A. Ms. McDonald, yes.
Q. And she was negotiating with Mr. Gongaware?
A. Yes.
Q. And at some point in time, Mr. Gongaware says you wanted too much money. Do you remember
that?
A. Something like that, yes.
Q. And -- I'm going to have Mr. Boyle help me out, find that, so I can move along. Now, sir, everyone
that you worked with on the "This Is It" tour, Travis Payne, Alif Sankey, Stacy Walker, Karen Faye, to
your knowledge, had contracts with AEG Live, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And even you, as co-director and co-creator -- or as director and co-creator, had to report to AEG
Live for financial matters, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Scheduling matters?
A. Yes.
Q. And timelines?
A. Yes.
A. At one time. I mean, this was a test, he hadn't been out in ten years.
Q. Well, how did he do for his popularity at the 02?
A. He sold out 50 shows.
Q. So how would you say that was? Was that good? Bad?
A. Pretty awesome. Historical.
Q. Historical. Okay. And, sir, I think you told us that as far as you were concerned, if Michael was
healthy, there's no reason he wouldn't have done the 50 shows at the 02; is that right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Okay. And if someone wanted to come in here and say that there's no way he would have ever
done 50 shows, would you disagree with that?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now, in your 40 years in your career, other than this situation, have you ever had an assistant
producer tell you that she feared that an artist would die within weeks before you were scheduled to
leave for a concert series?
A. No.
Q. Alif Sankey is someone that you trust and believe?
A. Yes.
Q. Alif Sankey had some serious concerns about Michael's health that she brought to your attention,
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And have you ever had a situation where someone came to you and was concerned that an artist
would die when getting ready for a concert, and they actually did die?
A. No.
Q. Now I want to ask you a little bit about Michael's physical condition. You told us last time that you
saw him deteriorating And declining over time; is that right?
A. Yes. I don't know if those were my words; but yes, he did change over time.
Q. Okay. And I showed you that email that Bugzee Hougdahl wrote, "in the last eight weeks, I've
seen him deteriorate in front of my eyes." do you remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. And you agreed with that, correct?
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; misstates the testimony.
Mr. Panish: Do you want me to put it up?
Judge: Overruled. Just let me caution you, Mr. Ortega, if there's an objection, don't give an answer
until I'm able to rule on the objection. Okay?
The witness: Okay.
Judge: But you may answer this question.
The witness: One more time, please, Mr. Panish?
Mr. Panish: Mr. Boyle is telling me to speed it up.
Q. Now, Michael, as far as you knew, dealt with him -- even when he was in pain, he would do the
best he could to give the best performance?
A. I would think so, yes.
Q. And you told us about Munich and how he was hurt and kept performing?
A. Yes.
Q. And later went to the hospital and had a problem?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, was he a perfectionist, Michael?
A. I think if -- if anyone ever was, that would be something that people would have called him. I
don't think he ever identified himself as a perfectionist; but I think most of us have never seen anyone
work as hard to accomplish anything like -- in the way that Michael worked.
Q. Okay. Fair enough. I want to show you first -- I want to identify demonstrative exhibit 1064-1 and
2. I'll show you that on your screen, sir, before we put it up. And you were working with Travis Payne,
Alif Sankey, Karen Faye, among others, correct?
A. Yes.
Mr. Panish: All right. Can I put that up, counsel?
Ms. Stebbins: I would object that there's no foundation with this witness for a lot of these quotes,
and that it's taking them out of context. But other than that --
Mr. Panish: It's all trial testimony, just like they did.
Judge: Well, did you show this to defense counsel?
Mr. Panish: Yes, I did.
Mr. Putnam: Just now.
Ms. Stebbins: We got it as we were coming in, and my objection is just that there's not a foundation
with this witness.
Mr. Panish: I met the agreement, your honor, what we're supposed to do.
Judge: And all of this is testimony?
Mr. Panish: Page and line of the trial where they said it.
Ms. Stebbins: It's paraphrasing of trial testimony, your honor. I'm not disputing that. It's out of
context, no foundation for this witness.
Mr. Panish: I'm going to ask him if this was consistent with what he saw when he was observing Mr.
Jackson with these other three people that were working on the show. There's no dispute about this
testimony.
Judge: If he saw some of these things.
Mr. Panish: Right. If he saw all these things.
Judge: Okay. You may.
Mr. Panish: So let's start with the first, 1064, dash, 1. Put that up.
Q. Travis Payne, you worked with Travis on -- you told us multiple occasions, high respect for him,
good at what he does, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you think Michael, at the time of this, was too thin and not eating enough?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you concerned about his sudden weight change affecting his physical state?
A. I was concerned about it, yes.
Q. Were you concerned that he was fatigued and lethargic during rehearsals?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Alif. Were you -- did Alif express to you her concerns in the end of May? And when I say
"Alif," I mean Sankey.
A. Again, I don't think it was my when our concerns started to, you know, arise; but Alif did express
her concerns.
Q. Okay. Did she -- did she cry?
A. Yes.
Q. Because Michael wasn't looking good and talking to god? God was talking to him, actually.
A. I don't know about that.
Q. Okay. Did she tell you that Michael was dying and needs to be put in a hospital?
A. Yeah.
Q. Ms. Faye, did she send you -- or did she tell you that she believed Michael was dying -- there was
a risk -- I'm sorry -- of M.J. Dying?
A. I don't recall that. I know that she was extremely concerned about him, though.
Q. Okay. Michael seemed paranoid at times, did he not, sir?
A. On the -- yeah, a couple of times, and especially on the 19th.
Q. Okay. And then Michael bush, that was one of the -- you gave a word for his job. I forgot.
"clothier"? He had a name.
A. He was his dresser and one of the costume designers.
Q. And did you discuss with him Michael's physical condition?
A. No, I didn't discuss it with him; but I'd heard through Travis during a later costume fitting that
Michael had lost more weight.
Mr. Panish: Okay. Let's go to -- put up for counsel only the next page, and the witness, but don't put
it up for the jury yet.
Ms. Stebbins: Your honor, I just raise the same objections here. Particularly the quote from Mr.
Bearden is out of context and inconsistent with Mr. Payne's testimony about it.
Judge: Okay. It's inconsistent with Mr. Payne as in --
Ms. Stebbins: As in he said that Mr. Jackson had never done that before in his entire career, so that
wasn't a comment on Mr. Jackson's health.
Mr. Panish: It's an email. I'll put up the emails if you want to. I'm just trying to cut through.
Judge: Are you going to do the same thing, just ask him --
Mr. Panish: Right. These are emails that he received. I don't want to go through all that exercise, but
I will if they're objecting and making me do that. I'm trying to speed it up here.
Judge: Okay. Overruled.
Mr. Panish: All right. Let's put this up. Okay. This is Mr. Hougdahl, that email that I asked you
about, "I have watched him deteriorate in front of my eyes over the last eight weeks."
Q. Do you remember that email?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. You had also watched Michael deteriorate, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Payne -- Mr. Bearden. You said "Payne." I'm sorry. "M.J. Not in shape enough yet to sing this
stuff live and dance at the same time." you remember that email, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And Mr. Bearden was talking not only about Michael's health but his vocal cords?
A. He was talking about his vocal strength.
Q. Right. Okay. But dancing doesn't have anything to do with vocal strength, does it?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now, then --
A. In this context, sir. I'm just -- what he's saying here is he wasn't in shape enough to sing full out
and dance full out at this stage, which was true, and I agree.
Q. And these symptoms -- take that down. -- that I've been showing you, this wasn't something that
just showed up, was it?
A. No.
Q. It was something that occurred over time?
A. Yes.
Q. And during the time of Michael's decline, it was your understanding that Dr. Murray was taking
care of him, right?
A. I would have
assumed that Dr. Murray was taking care of him, having been introduced to him as his doctor.
Q. But you told us, I think -- or did you know that Mr. Randy Phillips was in London in march of
2009 with Mr. Jackson for the press conference?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you tell us that Mr. Phillips didn't relay to you any -- any concerns, if any, in London
about Mr. Jackson's physical or emotional --
A. Yes.
Q. -- condition?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you told us that's something you would have liked to have known.
A. Yes.
Q. Now, in addition to Mr. Payne, Ms. Walker -- were you aware that Ms. Walker was also concerned
about Mr. Jackson missing rehearsals and being groggy in april and may?
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; misstates the testimony.
Mr. Panish: Let's put it up.
Judge: Is this Stacy Walker, the choreographer?
Mr. Panish: I'm going to put up the testimony. Page 3587, page 6 to 20. Let's start with that. Put it
up. This is what she testified to at the trial.
Ms. Stebbins: This refers to the forum, which was in June, your honor.
Mr. Panish: We have the next part. Show the next part, 3638, 17 to 28. Let's put it up for you. I'm
just going to show it to you before we put it up.
Ms. Stebbins: Again, your honor, this section says nothing about missing rehearsals.
Q. Let me ask you, was Mr. Jackson -- you told us as of mid-June he wasn't coming at all, right?
A. He missed a whole chunk, period of time, yes.
Q. In fact, you hadn't seen him for a long -- for a period of time before you saw him on the 19th,
correct?
A. As I recall and now remember, yes.
Q. Several weeks?
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; misstates the testimony.
Judge: Overruled.
The witness: I remember -- overruled meaning answer the question? I'm sorry. I'm getting tired.
Judge: If that was correct, yes.
The witness: Yeah, I don't know how many actual days, sir; but there was a period of time that I
remembered him not being there, yes.
Mr. Panish: Well, the 19th -- you said he wasn't coming to practice at all before that, right?
A. Right.
Q. And it was all the way back in may he was missing practices, too, right?
A. Not as many. It was -- I'm talking about -- if we're talking about the consistent period where he
was absent, that was in June.
Q. Well, in June, he didn't show at all?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. But before that, he was missing rehearsals that were concerning you in may, wasn't he, sir?
A. I'm not certain. I'd have to see that.
Q. Okay. Well, let's find it for you here.
A. Okay.
Q. Rehearsal. That would be page 9944, line 26 to 28. Let's put it up. That's the trial testimony, your
testimony. You can just put it up on the screen, expedite this. Okay. We've got to go to the next line, the
next page. It's the wrong page. Hold on. I'm sorry. I'm getting tired, too. Is it true that Michael was
missing a number of rehearsals between mid April and June 19th, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And you were concerned about that, right?
A. Absolutely.
Q. And how many days before June 19th had it been for -- since you'd even seen him?
A. I would say probably, you know, between six and eight.
Q. And, in fact, sir, as of that time, you were all under pressure, weren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And these conditions that you were observing, they were similar to the condition you saw Mr.
Jackson in at that H.B.O. Event where he went down and went to the hospital, correct?
A. No, I -- I think -- the 19th I think was the connection that we discussed about there, Mr. Panish.
Q. So you're saying that the only day that was similar was the 19th; is that right?
A. I think that what we said was the last time that we had seen Michael in this sort of kind of a state.
His rehearsal issues didn't remind me of H.B.O.
Q. But he went to the hospital at that time, and he didn't die, right?
A. Right.
Q. Sir, did you tell anyone that, "you should have taken Michael Jackson to the hospital"?
A. Did I tell anyone?
Q. Yes.
A. That I should have?
Q. No; that he should have been taken -- let me rephrase the question. Did you tell anyone that
Michael Jackson should have been taken to the hospital?
A. I might have.
Q. And did you say that after Mr. Jackson died, that he should have been taken to the hospital?
A. No. I think I probably would have said it sooner than that.
Q. Okay. So that would have been after the 19th sometime, you would have said Michael should go
to the hospital to be checked out?
A. Yeah.
Q. And, in fact, sir, you felt, and correct me if I'm wrong, that a different physician other than Dr.
Murray should have been brought in -- you suggested to bring in someone else to check out Michael,
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Because you thought that would be a responsible thing to suggest to Mr. Phillips?
A. Yes.
Q. Right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you talked about responsibility when counsel was questioning you. Do you remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. And certainly in the condition that Michael was in, you felt it would have been responsible to
bring in another physician to examine him because you didn't feel Conrad Murray was doing a very
good job, correct?
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; vague as to time as to when Mr. Ortega felt this.
Judge: Overruled.
Mr. Panish: You can answer, sir.
The witness: I don't think that that's why I wanted to -- why I suggested bringing in another doctor.
Q. Well, first of all, you didn't think Conrad Murray was doing a good job, did you?
A. No.
Q. Okay. And you thought that because of Michael's decline, and how concerned you were, that
another physician should be brought in, you suggested that, a professional?
A. Yes.
Q. To examine Mr. Jackson?
A. Yes.
Q. And you felt that would have been a responsible thing to do?
A. Yes.
Q. And you also felt, when you talk about personal -- I think you were talking about responsibility of
dancers, right?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you also felt that it was Mr. Payne, the choreographer's professional responsibility to report to
A. Yes.
Judge: This is the Kenny Ortega opinion, not the legal --
Mr. Panish: Not legal. I'm only talking about your lay opinion as Kenny Ortega.
Q. Just like it would be irresponsible, assuming they hired someone, not to check them out to see if
they're fit and competent and not to place them in a conflict-of-interest situation, correct?
Ms. Stebbins: I'm going to raise all the same objections, and also vague as to "check them out." are
we talking about checking to see if they're licensed or conducting a financial background check, et
cetera? This is not something that I think there's any foundation for this witness to be able to answer.
Judge: Overruled.
Mr. Panish: Do you remember the question? That's why they're objecting. All right. Let me try it
again. Let me read it.
The witness: Well, that's two of us, then. I feel less guilty.
Mr. Panish: My memory is not getting better like yours, I'll tell you. I've got to look at this.
Q. Okay. Now we're asking for Kenny Ortega's opinion, just like you've been giving us here today.
All right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now -- okay. Would you expect Kenny Ortega -- strike that question. I want you to assume that
AEG Live hired Dr. Murray. Are you with me?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Assuming that, would you expect them to have checked out the physician, that they were
competent and fit? Do you agree with that?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And that they would not introduce a physician in a conflict-of-interest situation, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Thank you. Now -- and it would be irresponsible not to do that, wouldn't it, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. He's telling me to go to another -- it's tough. I'm sorry. Now, you were asked questions by Mr.
Putnam about pressure. Do you remember those questions, being under pressure?
Q. Well, sir, doctors, do they get creative credit for shows like this?
A. No.
Q. Okay. He was -- Dr. Murray wasn't involved in the creative part of the show, was he?
A. No.
Q. You were involved in that, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And when the rehearsals -- that was your domain, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And Dr. Murray told you don't do that, you don't have a right to do what you felt was part of your
job, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And he thought you were meddling when you thought you were just trying to do your job?
A. More than do my job.
Q. Fair enough.
A. Look out for my friend.
Q. Look out and try to take some responsibility and help Mr. Jackson, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And find out what was wrong?
A. Yes.
Q. To help your friend?
A. Yes.
Q. And you wanted to do whatever you could to make things right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you got to that meeting, and you didn't feel like Dr. Murray had the same agenda that you did,
did you, sir?
Mr. Panish: Okay. Well, you left, you don't know what they were doing.
Q. Did you -- did you learn that Dr. Murray walked out of the meeting and said, "I can't take this shit
anymore"?
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; misstates --
Mr. Putnam: Misstates the testimony, your honor.
Judge: Overruled.
The witness: No.
Judge: Actually, I don't know if that foul language was used.
Mr. Panish: It was actually used in the testimony of Ms. Kai Chase.
Judge: I don't know if she used that word.
Mr. Panish: Yes, she did.
Judge: She used a bad word?
Mr. Panish: She did. It's not just me. I don't want to get in trouble here now.
Ms. Stebbins: But for a different meaning, your honor, at least based on the attendees.
Mr. Panish: Well, you know, sir, there was another -- actually -- a you know, if Michael ever heard
you talk like that, it would have been not appropriate. Am I right, Mrs. Jackson? We don't talk like that.
I'm just saying in respect -- in respect to who we're all here for, that's not a nice thing. That's not a nice
thing.
Q. This is what Dr. Murray said, not me.
A. Okay. No, I didn't hear any of that, no.
Q. Okay. Look, I'm sure Michael would be mad at me on several fronts here. But I'm just trying to do
the best I can, Mr. Ortega. All right?
A. I understand that. I know why you're here.
Q. At times, maybe -- anyway. All right. Let me move on. Now --
Judge: So the answer was no, you've never heard that that statement had been made?
The witness: That's correct, your honor.
Q. And you don't know whether AEG was pressuring Michael or Dr. Murray when you weren't
around, right?
A. No.
Mr. Panish: I'm trying to finish, your honor, so if I could just have a moment to -- I've got all these
notes, I can't read them, and -- I know I'm going to forget something. I should have sat down.
Q. Do you know what time Michael Jackson was supposed to be at rehearsal on the 18th?
A. I've seen emails, Mr. Panish; but I don't recall.
Q. You were upset that day, though, right?
A. I believe I was.
Q. And do you recall whether you told Karen Faye that Dr. Murray and Randy Phillips had held some
sort of intervention with Michael?
A. Do I recall having a conversation with Karen Faye where I told them that Dr. Murray and Randy
were having an intervention with Michael?
Q. Yes.
A. I don't recall that.
Q. You do recall, though -- or you did refer to the 6/20 meeting as an intervention? 6/20, I'm talking
about.
A. The 6/20, I -- if I referred to it as an intervention -- I was invited to that meeting. I didn't call that
meeting, and I didn't title that meeting.
Q. Whether you --
A. It certainly wasn't an intervention when I was there.
Q. But from -- the last time you were here, did you testify you felt you would call it an intervention?
A. I don't recall saying that, sir; but you can put it in front of me.
Q. It's all right. Now, do you recall whether you ever told Karen Faye --
Ms. Stebbins: Your honor, I'm just going to object to the extent this is a backwards way of getting in
hearsay testimony.
Mr. Panish: No, no. We had this discussion in chambers. If you want to go in there, we can do it
again; but the court instructed me to do it this way. I'll go in there and talk about it, but I don't want to
--
Judge: What was your question?
Ms. Stebbins: Your honor, my concern is there may be some inadmissible hearsay testimony that
comes in this way without it --
Mr. Panish: I'm asking him whether he made specific statements, that's all. If he says he doesn't
remember, or he didn't do it, then I have to take the next step.
Judge: Okay. To Karen Faye? Is that the last --
Mr. Panish: Yes.
Judge: Overruled. You may ask. It would be hearsay if Karen Faye repeated it. But go ahead.
Mr. Panish: Well, but then we get into the impeachment. But let me just ask the questions, and we'll
go from there. I think we already discussed this.
Q. Do you recall whether you told -- told Karen Faye that AEG was funding Michael's entire life
right now; his food, kids and everything?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Do you recall whether you ever told Karen Faye that AEG has told Michael that they'll pull
the plug if he doesn't get it together?
A. Maybe in some capacity to that.
Q. Okay. How about did you ever tell Karen Faye that AEG had told Michael that if he doesn't do
this, he loses everything?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Did you ever tell Karen Faye that any hand-holding of Michael had been removed?
A. Again, we may have had a conversation about something like that, sir; but those -- that wouldn't
have been the way I would have talked to Karen.
Q. Okay. Fair enough. Did you ever tell Karen Faye that Michael had to face his fears?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever tell Alif Sankey that AEG was going to engage in tough love with Michael?
A. I don't know if I said it in that capacity, but I have used the word "tough love."
Q. Okay. Did you ever tell Alif Sankey that Michael needed to show up to rehearsals or the world
tour would be canceled?
A. I may have had a conversation with her where I -- where I said that that could be a possibility, yes.
Mr. Panish: For right now, if you don't get mad at me, I'm not going to ask you any more questions.
Is that all right?
The witness: It's perfectly fine, sir.
Mr. Panish: Okay. I may have them after Mr. Putnam; but for this time, I'm going to stop.
Judge: Recross?
Mr. Putnam: Can I go to the bathroom first, your honor?
Ms. Stebbins: Why don't we just take the break a few minutes early, your honor?
Judge: All right. Ten-minute break.
(Break)
Judge: Katherine Jackson versus AEG Live. You may be seated. And you may begin your recross.
Mr. Putnam: Thank you, your honor. Mr. Ortega, just a couple of quick things, if I may.
The witness: Yes, sir.
Recross-examination by Mr. Putnam:
Q. First, when you were testifying a moment ago, you said that you thought that the O2 was a test.
You were talking about the O2, and concerts for the O2.
A. A test?
Q. You said that that was a test.
A. I didn't mean to say that.
Q. You didn't mean that?
A. No.
Q. Okay.
A. If I did say that, I have no idea -- I might have heard the question incorrectly.
Q. Okay. I will look back at it. I was going to ask you why you called it a test, and a test of what.
A. No. I thought of it as an event.
Q. Well, you were talking -- let me remind you what you were talking about at the time. You were
A. I would not have used that as a way of describing, you know, how I -- what I saw. I wouldn't have
used the word "deteriorating."
Q. And, in fact, you clarified that in terms of a chunk of missed rehearsals, you thought it was
probably between six to eight days; is that correct?
A. To the best of my recollection.
Q. And --
A. Which the -- six to eight very important days.
Q. And, in fact, the week you were concerned about was the week of June 15th, correct?
A. Somewhere in there, I -- I thought it was around the 13th or 14th; but I think it's, yes, within that
period of time.
Q. And that was the lead-up to the 19th, you were concerned in that period of time, correct?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. Now, in terms of those various quotes you were shown, I'm going to ask you some questions. A
number, if not almost all of these, were made in reference to what happened on the 19th. Now, you
believe that Alif Sankey was concerned about Mr. Jackson on the 19th, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And, in fact, when she cried and said god was talking to him -- I know you didn't -- you haven't
heard that god was talking to him; but her crying, that was on the 19th, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were concerned on the 19th, as well, yes?
A. Yes.
Q. And Ms. Faye was concerned on the 19th?
A. Yes.
Q. And Travis Payne was concerned on the 19th?
A. Yes.
Q. The people that were there on the 19th, would you say they would have to be concerned if they
saw him on the 19th?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Alif Sankey tell you she was concerned on the 23rd?
A. No.
Q. And that was when Mr. Jackson came back, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And did she come up and say, "Hey, I'm still worried"?
A. No.
Q. What about Karen Faye? Did she come up and let you know that she was still worried on the
23rd?
A. No.
Q. What about Travis Payne?
A. No.
Q. Did anybody come up on the 23rd, four days later, and tell you they were still concerned?
A. No.
Q. What about on the 24th?
A. No.
Q. So on the 19th, people were certainly concerned, right?
A. Yes.
Q. But do you know anybody who was concerned on the 23rd?
A. Not that I can recall.
Q. What about the 24th, sir?
A. Not that I can recall.
Q. Now, you just finished working on the rolling stones tour, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So I have a question for you. You were asked a number of questions about your experience with
doctors on tour, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You don't usually go out on the tour, though, do you? You're only there for the first couple of days?
A. That's correct.
Q. So, for example, if Mr. Jackson had doctors with him during the "Dangerous" tour, would that be
news to you?
A. Yeah.
Q. Did you know that before?
A. I don't -- no.
Q. But you worked on that tour, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And let me ask you, the Rolling Stones, do they have doctors with them on the tour?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. You don't know, correct?
A. No.
Q. Now, would it surprise you to learn that there's been testimony in this courtroom that the Rolling
Stones have doctors with them right now on tour?
Mr. Boyle: No foundation.
Judge: Overruled.
The witness: No.
Mr. Putnam: It wouldn't surprise you?
A. No.
Q. You just don't know it, correct?
A. Right.
Q. So when you said with all those questions about in your experience, all you were saying is it's not
something you've experienced before, correct?
A. Yes.
Mr. Putnam: Okay. Assume -- but I wasn't even saying as to this tour. I'm asking if he has ever
worked on a tour where an artist was $400 million in debt.
Judge: Overruled.
Mr. Boyle: No foundation that he would know the artist's financial status.
Judge: Overruled.
Q. Have you ever, to your knowledge?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. To your knowledge, have you ever worked on
A. Tour where the artist couldn't afford his daily expenses?
Mr. Boyle: Same objections.
Judge: Overruled.
The witness: I don't believe so.
Mr. Putnam: Have you ever worked on a tour where a promoter and producer was advancing all of
an artist's daily expenses?
A. That's possible. I just wouldn't know.
Q. Are you aware of whether you've ever worked on a tour where the promoter or producer was --
strike that. Have you ever worked on a tour where an artist wasn't able to pay his own personal
physician?
A. I -- I -- I don't think so. I mean -- that's like a -- an assumption on my part. I mean, I wouldn't
know.
Q. And that's why I asked, sir. Because you were asked a number of things -- have you ever worked
on a tour where a doctor did this or a promoter did that, so I'm asking the same type of thing. Because
you don't know, correct?
A. No.
Q. The next question is, you testified last time that you were introduced to Dr. Conrad Murray,
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Who introduced you?
A. Michael.
Q. You were asked to assume a number of things. I'm going to ask you to assume that Mr. Jackson
requested that Dr. Conrad Murray, his physician of several years, be brought on the tour. Would you
assume that for me?
A. Yes.
Q. And would you also assume for me that AEG Live confirmed that Dr. Conrad Murray was licensed
in four states and confirmed that he had never been disciplined. Assume that for a moment. Okay?
A. Okay.
Q. If those things were true, would you then believe that Dr. Conrad Murray was a fit and competent
doctor?
Mr. Panish: Well, that's different than my question.
Mr. Putnam: How is that different, your honor?
Mr. Panish: Can I finish my objection, please? I was asking him about responsibility. I didn't ask him
whether Conrad Murray was fit or competent. He doesn't know that.
Judge: You couched it in terms of responsibility, both of you have been couching. You could ask it,
but not with that phrasing.
Mr. Panish: Right. He doesn't know if Dr. Murray -- anyway.
Mr. Putnam: Let me ask it differently, sir.
Q. Do you remember you got that email from Randy Phillips that says "We check everybody out"?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember being asked about that?
A. Yes.
Q. If you were to assume for a moment that Mr. Phillips had been told that they checked and Dr.
Conrad Murray was licensed in four states, and they checked, and it didn't appear that he'd ever been
disciplined -- if you can assume that was true, would that be a basis in your mind for saying that "We
have checked him out"?
Mr. Panish: Again, same objection. No foundation, beyond the scope. I didn't bring that email up.
He's also not qualified.
Mr. Putnam: You asked him about --
Mr. Panish: No, I didn't -- excuse me. Can I finish? About what -- now he's asking is that checking
someone out. I didn't even bring that up. It's beyond the scope.
Judge: I think the questions were asked in the context of responsibility. I can think in my own mind
of a question that you could rephrase.
Mr. Panish: You wouldn't help me.
Mr. Putnam: Do you think it would be responsible?
Mr. Panish: You wouldn't help me when I asked.
Judge: All right. I'm just saying there is a question.
Mr. Panish: Maybe.
Mr. Putnam: Do you think it would have been responsible for AEG Live to have gone and checked
to see if Dr. Conrad Murray was, in fact, licensed in four states? Would that be the responsible thing for
them to have done?
A. Yes.
Q. And would it have been a responsible thing for them to check to see whether or not he'd been
disciplined?
A. Yes.
Q. And if they did those things, that would be a responsible thing for them to do if they were hiring
Dr. Conrad Murray, correct? That was the hypothetical, if they were hiring him.
A. Yes.
Q. But if they weren't hiring Dr. Conrad Murray, would that responsibility have been above and
beyond anything they would have needed to do in your mind?
Mr. Panish: It's beyond --
Mr. Boyle: Calls for expert opinion.
Mr. Panish: That's a different question.
Mr. Putnam: Yes, it is.
Mr. Panish: It sure is. It's speculation, foundation.
Judge: I'm trying to think if there's a way to couch it in terms of responsibility.
Mr. Panish: That's not. It's an expert opinion as to -- as to --
Mr. Putnam: It's not an expert opinion, your honor.
Mr. Panish: Excuse me. God. Can I -- they've been making objections the whole time I was
A. Question. Did you ever have a conversation with Randy Phillips about his concerns when Michael
said to him that he wanted to bring his doctor with him on tour?
Mr. Panish: That would be hearsay, what Randy Phillips said.
Mr. Putnam: Did you ever have a conversation with him on those concerns?
Mr. Panish: It's the same objection. It's hearsay, Randy Phillips' conversation with him.
Judge: Overruled.
The witness: Yes.
Mr. Putnam: And did you express in that conversation any concern that you had?
A. No.
Q. Did Mr. Phillips ever tell you that he wanted Michael Jackson to bring Dr. Conrad Murray with
him?
A. No.
Q. Did he ever tell you that he introduced Dr. Conrad Murray to Michael Jackson?
Mr. Panish: Your honor, excuse me. Whatever Mr. Phillips is saying to him is hearsay.
Judge: It is.
Mr. Panish: I've been trying to object to that, and he keeps asking the questions. They're all hearsay,
and he knows that.
Judge: Not all of them. Some of them call for yes and no. But yes, this one is hearsay.
Mr. Putnam: I have no further questions, your honor.
Mr. Panish: I'll be quick. False hope, right? Mr. Boyle just -- I've got to be quick. Maybe I shouldn't
have said that. All right.
Further redirect examination by Mr. Panish:
Q. Mr. Ortega --
A. Yes, sir?
Q. -- let's talk about Conrad Murray and responsible, responsibility. Now, sir, would it be responsible
in your mind, assuming someone hired a doctor, to have had a concern and not -- strike that. Would it
have been responsible to place a doctor in a conflict of interest if you hired a doctor for an artist?
Mr. Panish: Excuse me. Can I get the objection out? He cannot testify as to whether somebody was
competent or not as a physician and what factors would go into that. So that would be calling for
speculation, no foundation, expert testimony.
Judge: Are we couching this in terms of responsibility?
Mr. Putnam: Yes, I said responsibility. Strike it, let me ask it differently, your honor.
Q. Do you think it's a responsible thing for a person to look into whether or not a doctor is in debt
before they hire him?
A. I wouldn't think it would be something that would be the norm.
Q. Would you think -- and it's a little personal. Pardon me. Would it be a responsible thing, do you
think, for a studio to look into whether Kenny Ortega has debt before hiring him to be a director?
A. I've been there and they've hired me.
Q. Should they have looked and not hired you?
A. I'm grateful that they didn't.
Q. I understand that. But do you think that whether or not you're in debt would have any bearing on
whether or not they should -- it would have been the responsible thing for them to look into that?
A. I don't think so.
Q. And why not, sir?
A. Being in debt doesn't change the level of your talent, your gift, your ability.
Mr. Putnam: Thank you, sir.
Further redirect examination by Mr. Panish:
Q. Do you have access to a prescription pad?
A. Do I have access a prescription pad?
Q. Right.
A. No.
Q. Do you give medical care to people at the studio?
A. No.
Q. Do you -- have you ever been in a conflict of interest where you were in serious debt and if you
didn't do whatever was asked of you, that you would lose the job and everything you had would be
gone?
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; vague.
Judge: Overruled.
Mr. Panish: And -- let me rephrase it.
Q. Have you ever been in a position where you were providing medical care to a patient where you
were in serious debt and then if you didn't do what you were told to do, it would all be over for you?
A. Well, I'm not a doctor, so I would have never been in that situation.
Mr. Panish: Exactly. Thank you.
Judge: All joining in on the fun.
Mr. Putnam: Good times, your honor.
Further recross-examination by Mr. Putnam:
Q. If someone came to you and said that they wanted to hire their personal doctor that they had for
the last three years, nonetheless would it have been a responsible thing for you to have gone to check as
to whether or not that doctor was in debt?
Mr. Panish: It's beyond the scope.
Judge: Overruled.
The witness: Again, I just don't think that that would be something that I personally would think to
do.
Mr. Putnam: Thank you.
Further redirect examination by Mr. Panish:
Q. You would rely on the experts in determining whether a doctor was in a conflict of interest and
that shouldn't be done, correct?