Terry Michael interview with Dr.

Robert Gallo, July 22, 2012

10 minute interview, by Terry Michael, with Dr. Robert Gallo, Sunday, July 22, 2012, at the XIX International AID Conference in Washington, DC. It was conducted just before Gallo was part of a panel called, HIV Prevention, Care and Treatment in the National Capital Region (DC Metropolitan Area): Moving into the Fourth Decade of the Epidemic. It was the only session at which Gallo, the co-discoverer of HIV, was invited to appear during the entire six-day conference.

TERRY: [Introducing myself to Gallo as he arrived for the panel discussion.] I was press secretary for the Democratic National Committee...well that was after that....I was press secretary for a couple of Members of Congress, Paul Simon, Bob Matsui... GALLO: But you were always here in Washington? TERRY: For 37 years. GALLOS PRESS AIDE: What do you do now? TERRY: I run the Washington Center for Politics & Journalism. I teach college journalists about politics. I wanted to ask you a question. Ive always wanted to ask you this question... GALLO: Fire away. TERRY: Ever since Luc Montagnier in 2006 said, The Body can rid itself of HIV in a few weeks if you have.... GALLO: [Interrupting] You cant be serious, quoting him in this day and age... TERRY: Well, no I am only asking you what you think... GALLO: OK, ask me the question. TERRY: ...(about) what he said... GALLO: [Interrupting] You know what hes saying now. Hes into homeopathy. Hes into anti-vaccine [inaudible]... GALLOS PRESS AIDE: [to Gallo] Youre on the record. GALLO: Oh..ok...Nature just wrote...from 35 major scientists...that he should give up the Cameroon center...and I had to withdraw from it because of what he was doing. And apparently he was demanding that they all sign something, so that anything discovered there goes to his company. And...but that wasnt the bad part.. Beyond that, that was not good... but the bad part was the anti-vaccine and the homeopathy. So whatever he

said in 2006...its hard to, but I will answer your question... TERRY: But lets go back.... GALLO: ....lets pretend it came from you....lets not say Montagnier...because it doesnt ...I dont think theres any, sir....forgive me...I wouldnt use his quote. TERRY: But lets go back to the last time this conference was in America, when he said it takes... GALLO: 85 TERRY: No 90...San Francisco, was in 1990...that was 22 years ago. He...thats where he introduced the thought... GALLO: ...first one was in 1985 TERRY: Yes. yes. Thats where he introduced the thought that HIV requires cofactors..what did you think of his co-factor view at the time...this was 1990? GALLO: From the beginning to now, I used to say, to make an extreme to what he was saying...I used to say it takes, even Clark Kent plus the virus will get AIDS unless theyre born with a few percent of people who can battle it...OK..endogenous postgenetic factors. Thats been borne out abundantly ...let me put it another way...the best way I can explain it, is that of course in every disease, including AIDS, there are factors that make progression faster, faster and there are factors that slow it down. And if you say, list some, we could sit down and have a half-hour discussion, could list many. But when I hear you say co-factors....or Luc...to a scientist it has a very specific meaning. For example, in Burkett Lymphoma, Epstein Barre virus plays a role in the cause of this lymphoma in Africa, but its one of many steps...in some also exogenous, i.e. specific, co-factors... in the case of Burkett lymphoma its malaria, it drives the growth of B cells and those B cells develop into a lymphoma if they also have EVB genes in them, so it is multi-factorial...In HIV no one on Earth to this day has ever identified any specific factor needed, other than a human and the virus. TERRY: Im curious, have youve discussed it with Montagnier... have you, the questions he has raised....have you ever discussed it with him, since he made that comment in 2006? GALLO: [PAUSED] [in almost a whisper] What can I say. No one would. TERRY: So you havent, youve never talked to him about this? GALLO: Well, yeah I guess, Im sure, we talked so much since that time. I had to... TERRY: No, no...since 2006...this statement

GALLO PRESS AIDE: Well, theyve had..youve had conferences... GALLO: The burden of the evidence is on the person who claims it, not the persons who say I dont believe it, theres no evidence for it...so you tell me why you shouldnt be criticizing that statement because there isnt a shred of evidence for it. Whats the evidence for a specific co-factor. If you know it please tell me because Im ignorant... of it. I just dont know of any. And I think.... TERRY: What do you think led him to say this? GALLO: Led him to say it? TERRY: This..this...that the body can rid itself of HIV in...? GALLO: I led him to say it? TERRY: No, no. What do you think led him to say it? GALLO: You know..what can I say.. TERRY: Is he senile..is he old? GALLO: [inaudible] TERRY: No, Terry. GALLO: Terry, Is he senile?...hes a couple of years older than me. I mean, but this is 2006, he was saying things that like that in 2000...he was talking about micoplasma, which can cause human disease, being a necessary co-factor...there was 0.0 evidence for that. Now hes talking about homeopathy, where he takes electromagnetic waves from an infinite dilution of bacterial DNA... TERRY: No, Im familiar with homeopathy, Ive, Ive not... GALLO: But, this kind of homeopathy. This is how bad it is. Ill take bacteria from you...everybody has bacteria, right? You spit in a jar, dilute it almost infinitely in water and I have a machine that makes electromagnetic waves of this and hes going to cure Prion disease with this? People were throwing him out of offices..what, what can I say. TERRY: I mean there are people, who..I dont believe in homeopathy...but there are people who also have intelligent thoughts about other things... GALLO PRESS AIDE: No, no its not all homeopathy..there are.. GALLO: Its not all homeopathy..its the co-factor thing..its the tetracycline...its papaya...he gave the Pope papaya for Parkinson..why dont you ask him about

that...does he still treat papaya?...I...my guess...off the record...is its commercial ...hes..hes..making papaya extract to treat Parkinsons disease. Is there evidence of that? If you know it, please tell me, because I have friends with Parkinsons disease, too, so Id like to tell them. NOTE TO READER: AS ESTABLISHED AT THE BEGINNING, THIS WAS A RECORDED, ON-THE-RECORD INTERVIEW. I CANNOT AGREE TO PLACE GALLOS IMPLIED SLANDER OF MONTAGNIER AS PERSONALLY PROFITING FROM HIS THEORIES OFF-THE-RECORD. TERRY: Well, I mean..maybe its a kernel of truth. Like, yes, malnutrition encourages poor immune systems, so, well, nourish people well, and maybe... GALLO: These are all foggy and silly thoughts. Of course malnutrition makes your immune system go down, it makes everything go down. So if youre talking about starvation [inaudible] dont give me this shit of, of pulp of papaya...what evidence is there? Were in 2012, its a scientific era, you need evidence to make statements. TERRY: One last thing... GALLO: Are you with me? TERRY: Yes, yes. No, I understand the arguments, Ive been studying this for five years...and Ive read everything... GALLO: I want to make sure you understand... GALLO PRESS AIDE: No, let me make it clear. Hes not saying all homeopathy is bad.. GALLO: Or wrong... GALLO PRESS AIDE: Or wrong... GALLO: Im, just saying, when its extreme nonsense...of course... TERRY: One last thing, I wont take more of your time... GALLO: [inaudible] Why does somebody do things...why do people say HIV doesnt exist?...why do people say HIV doesnt cause AIDS?....why do people say Americans created it?...I mean, had a German named Siegel, East Berlin, a geneticist, who tried to put it on the United States. These are political reasons. Stupidity and narcicism. And you know, like, I want attention. How can I get attention? TERRY: Ive got you. So, the last thing I want to ask you, is PrEP. The ..uh..giving of what we know, from well assessed side effects of Truvada and the other ARVs, after about 15 years..because Im 65 and Im gay, and Ive watched people take it for 15

years. Ive seen heart attacks, Ive seen strokes. GALLO: Ive got you. TERRY: Do you think PrEP should be given to HIV negatives? Do you think PrEP should be given to HIV negatives. Would you... GALLO: Tough question. Im not a leader of that, as you may have noticed. Ive kept out of it. Theres [pointing] my clinical colleague..theres another one over there...you should really ask the bald-headed guy. TERRY: So youre not necessarily on board...ith prescribing these drugs to HIV negatives? GALLO: Id put it another way. I dont want to argue...I get into so many battles...you know. My view would be were not going to do this forever, were not going to do it for the whole world. You know, so, I think it can help some people. For example, a gay man, whos at risk, his partner is positive...maybe...but yes, they can cause a little renal problem...yes, you can build resistance to them that might [inaudible] yes they have other side effects, at least one of them does, retonovir...so, I mean, youve got to balance this... TERRY: I mean, if a doctor said, Im going to give you anti-biotics, so you may go have sex at the baths, do you think that would that be malpractice? GALLO: [laughing]...You ask tough questions...[laughing] You have a point. Thats all Ill say. You have a point. TERRY: And the FDA has just approved this for people who are negatives! GALLO: I..I..didnt give you an answer. But I am not on the bandwagon. Mainly because I see some risk, not only to the individual, but for resistant mutants developing... TERRY: Yes, Jay Levy has said that for 20 years... GALLO: Well, were on the same side on this one. TERRY: And I cant get him to talk about it. GALLO: Well, you know because its.... TERRY: Of course, he has taken $25 million in NIH grants over the last 20 years. GALLO: Well, theres also that you may protect somebody. But, another point I have is that...[say] Im infected. You, or she, are my partner..you take the medicine, but Im promiscuous. What about all the other people who have not taken it. You understand?

TERRY: No, theres no argument from me on this subject. Its just it boggled my mind the FDA fast-tracked this and now...the world thinks weve got an anti-dote to HIV.. GALLO: Thats ridiculous when people say the cure is here, because this is terrible. We dont have a cure. Number one point. We dont have a cure. I wish we did...my God. My view would be, it probably wont be long-lasting. But if you asked me, was it a new concept? Even the concept really isnt new. Because, we know if you treated a baby it might protect. We know if you treated a lab worker who got exposed, it could protect. TERRY: Theres never been a single incident of a lab worker [laughing] getting HIV. GALLO: Well, thats not true. Im sorry to tell you thats not true. TERRY: Well maybe one or two or three. GALLO: In the early years, you dont know. They didnt talk about it. I had three collaborators infected. And two died. One was working at our virus [production facility]... in Frederick, Maryland, mass producing it. He had dermatitis...skin. He didnt wear gloves. There was an accident in the centrifuge. The virus, in concentrated mass amounts, all over our place. Put his hands in. Got infected. Hi... INTERRUPTED, AT THIS POINT, BY GALLO COLLEAGUE: I have met this gentleman, and we havent plugged him in [???] This guy right here. GALLO: This is Dr. [Robert] Redfield, who runs our clinic. TERRY: I recognize his face. [from Brent Leungs House of Numbers.] GALLO: Well, everybody does... TERRY: Well, let me just stop.... [recording ends.]