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A Special Interview with Ori Hofmekler about Whey

By Dr. Mercola

DM: Dr. Joseph Mercola, DO OM: Ori Hofmekler OM: I saw some question regarding isolate and concentrate, and let me tell you something, youre damn right to the point here. Because when you remove the fat from the milk or the fat from the whey, you are removing a very important component of the immuno properties of the food. It has phospholipids that play a critical role on balancing. It even contains phosphatidylserine which is very good for you and some cortisol. DM: On your brain. OM: But, all the IgG immunoglobulin, which is one of the high sources of glutamine and cysteine are bound to the fat globule. Fat is not just for calories. In fact, most fat food including in nuts, seeds, chia, and almonds are carriers, are antioxidants, vitamin E, (indiscernible 1:04), phytosterols. The same thing with dairy. Its called lipoic acid. It is really a carrier of enzymes, of immunoglobulin. You cannot just take the fat and you think that you created something good. Im totally against whey isolate. I think its just the wrong whey. The difference between them is about 7% protein which can easily be compensated. One of them is 80 or 82 and one of them is 90 or 89. Thats the difference. Sometimes its only 5 gm of amino acid per 100 gm. We dont even eat 100 gm per serving. So were talking about 2 to 3 gm of protein. Add a little whey protein concentrate. You could notice the taste. There is no comparison between isolate and concentrate. Isolate always have a (indiscernible 2:00). Ive never had a good isolate in my life. DM: If someone would go to like a typical health food store like GNC where you can buy a protein supplement, a protein shake, what is a typical type of whey? Obviously there is soy protein and other types of proteins that are used. What is the typical whey protein being used in the industry? OM: Unfortunately, the typical whey protein in the industry, and I know the industry, is done from conventional milk including whey protein concentrate and including New Zealand whey. New Zealand whey which is grass fed cow, I can tell you now, and Im ready, to anyone who challenges me on this: by New Zealand law theyre all done from pasteurized milk. So the New Zealand whey in my opinion, is not a good whey. 1

What happens now--, there are a few good sources right now. Theyre doing all the efforts to produce good grass-fed cow whey. When you look at this whey, you could see immediately the difference on the smell, the taste. It tastes creamy and good by itself. Its water soluble. It gives you only the mineral component. In America, you dont have to process whey from pasteurized milk. You have a choice. There is a big industry of raw milk and cheese manufacturing. Raw milk cheese is one of the best foods for humans. There is no question about this, if you take advantage of it. And Ive been trying to take advantage of it, to produce quality whey for human [consumption]. Were talking about almost like a miracle food that did exist in the past, it doesnt exist so often now. In my opinion, and Im positive here, that in America, you can find some of the best whey in the world. You just need to know where to look for it and how to process it. You dont need to always look overseas. And even though grass fed is very important, you have to make sure that all the elements are together. Grass fed, cold processed, not pasteurized, and well handled. That means it was not exposed to acid. I want to talk quickly about this acid exposure. Its very important. DM: Thats exposure to the processing of the whey, taking it from the raw milk that the cow is producing to the finished product that you would purchase. OM: Science is absolutely sure that the two methods that will destroy the immuno component in milk and whey is heat and acid, but here are the controls. There is also fermented milk and fermentation does cause acidity. It causes hydrolization and even similarly MSG in the milk. Does that mean that kefir and yoghurt is bad for you? No. In fact, all the research shows clearly that eating sour milk have amazing cardiovascular benefit of reducing blood pressure, reducing triglyceride. Whey and raw milk cheese have compounds, casomorphins, that have amazing beneficial effect on blood pressure. Like whey have ACE inhibitors [inaudible] casein. That means they can actually inhibit the factor that cause elevated blood pressure. They are elements that stabilize blood sugar. Sour milk properties are clearly in the cardiovascular system, not in the bodybuilding system. That means if you want to build muscle, do not use yoghurt to build your

muscle. It has protein but due to the fermentation a lot of the immuno component gone away. You will get other benefits though, so just to be smart. Yoghurt is for detox. Yoghurt is good for colonizing gut bacteria which are extremely beneficial including for building your muscle. Probiotics are very important but yoghurt is not a good source of protein to build the muscle or the immune system. Whey protein however, is a great source for building the muscle. The combination of sour milk product and whey are ideal. You benefit from both of them. If somebody ever combines good quality whey protein and good probiotics, I think that would be a great addition to todays market because probiotics do play an essential role in protein utilization. We have to understand a very interesting phenomenon that as protein is digested in the stomach a large percent of amino acids actually are not fully utilized and reaching the low intestine. Thats when probiotics come into action. They can help us utilize the remaining amino acid. More than that, if your gut flora is healthy, we have now proof that they can actually synthesize essential amino acids, including lysine which is missing in food stuff. Thats one of the downside of vegans, they dont have enough lysine. They can also synthesize leucine which we need for muscle building. Good quality protein and good gut flora, good timing of meals is important. During the day maybe one light protein meal, detox and then lunch. Your option, any kind of high protein if you eat lunch. I dont eat lunch. Any high protein. It could be eggs and salad or something like this. Then one up to three recovery meals after exercising. It doesnt matter when you exercise. So if you exercise in the morning, then have one recovery wait a little bit, finish the detox and move forward. Your main meal of the cooked food, the roughage, fiber, in my opinion should be supper. There is no point of you going with a full stomach signaling your body that youre ready to go to sleep after lunch. Most people, after lunch, become extremely sleepy. I believe that this is a good design of today. It gives you great anabolic net effect, net protein utilization, which is maximal. You dont throw amino acid if you incorporate light small protein meals during the day. You dont throw amino acid. You use that. And then at night, its another interesting phenomenon. Joe, you can eat a 2500 calorie meal. I know you eat meat. I eat fish. You can eat a lot of nuts or whatever it is.

Interestingly enough, the calorie itself, the calorie intake of the meal increase protein utilization. So now we can eat 100 gm of protein and still utilize most of it because the body needs calories from good fuel to complete utilization. So we got a win-win situation. During the day, light protein, we keep ourselves light enough, we throw away toxins. We give the muscle exactly what it needs to build. We can burn fat during that time because we dont consume so many calories. So thats the right time to burn fat when we are active. At night, we compensate. We compensate properly with a high protein, high vegetable, and low glycemic diet. We got to do that. DM: Lots of people are really concerned because they look at the label and they say, Oh my gosh, 15 gm of carbohydrates. Theyre nervous because as we discussed earlier, you really want to limit the carbohydrates. The carbohydrate is actually in the form of maltodextrin, which is a polymer. OM: In fact, it is a fiber, which resists even though its registered as carbohydrates. DM: Required by law by the FDA to be on the label. OM: Its effectively not a regular carb. It doesnt convert actually to energy the way other carbs. DM: So we dont have an enzyme to digest it? OM: We cannot digest it. On the top of all these fiber, digestive resistant maltodextrin, its just another name of a water soluble fiber which does appear naturally in grains and other foods. Its just in FDA or in other name that you can describe this kind of water soluble fiber. Its probably one of the most important components that appear in water soluble fibers including other grains. It is called oligosaccharides. That means its a chain of -- in this case, glucose molecules bound together in a bond that cannot be broken by the regular digestive enzymes. At the same time, these digestive resistant maltodextrin or water soluble fiber have shown to have blood sugar lowering properties, blood lipid lowering properties. It has claims that unconditioned they have been proven. But we are not talking about simple cow definitely (indiscernible 11:17). DM: Its not going to impair insulin resistance at all. It will actually lower insulin resistance.

OM: It will lower insulin. It is naturally occurring in every good fibrous food that they would recommend. DM: The other component is that there are some that concerned that the maltodextrin and the manufacturing of it actually has as a side effect: MSG. OM: Since this is not your typical synthetic maltodextrin, there is no comparison between the two. The synthetic maltodextrin does raise blood sugar and its done synthetically through hydrolization process that could create MSG. Let me tell you something about the MSG. MSG is a very dangerous toxin that causes excitotoxicity in the brain. In effect, what MSG cause is accumulation of glutamine, glutamic acid out of the cell which basically causes the mitochondria to pop inside out. Its a trouble. DM: You want to stay away from MSG. OM: You want to stay away from MSG. However, saying that the body is very well equipped to protect itself from MSG. Number one, most of the brains (indiscernible 12:26) are not open to MSG; only, a very important area, the hypothalamus. But most of the brain (indiscernible 12:33) it cannot cross the brain barrier. Second, even though it crosses, we have naturally occurring MSG in many healthy foods; tomato, potato, yoghurt. Are you going stop eating sour milk and yoghurt with all their benefits just because it produces some MSG in the processing, the fermentation of milk? No. We cannot be too obsessive with things because the body can easily protect itself from MSG on a healthy diet. Here is (indiscernible 13:94) do. One of the compounds the body produces is called betaine. Betaine is produced from choline. Now, milk or whey is loaded with choline, with all the nutrients, that help people protect yourself from MSG. Not that it doesnt produce MSG, it provides you -- through the sunflower lecithin -- with all the nutrients that your body needs to protect itself from glutamate excitotoxicity. If there is any God-forbidden byproduct of MSG in regular dairy, of maybe even human breast milk quite honestly or any other food, we have evolved to protect ourselves. It doesnt cause us the toxicity. But out there on the internet there are people who like to create attention and panic about anything. I can tell you, synthetic MSG is a very dangerous toxin. I would be the first one to warn people to not put it in their body. It really, over time, can destroy them. Some researchers believe that its a hidden effect behind brain damage in Alzheimer and 5

Parkinsons. MSG is toxic. But lets not move and take healthy food and say, okay -because of a fraction of a microgram of MSG as a byproduct, lets not touch it. DM: Sure. What should people be aware, what should they look for so they know the difference. We talked earlier about sort of the concentrate and the isolate. You really want to focus on the concentrate. Maybe we can go into some more specifics on how its processed and the importance of the organic and the pasture raised dairy. How thats going to make a difference in the final product. OM: The best way whey protein that you can get today is the one that is derived from raw milk cheese manufacturing. Thats the first thing. The milk itself, the starter has to be raw. You cannot get today, good dairy product, definitely not whey from pasteurized milk. In order to produce whey, you need massive amount of milk. I mean, the yield result is about 2%. DM: So if you have a gallon of milk, only 2% of that is whey. OM: The final product, yes. We are talking about massive amount of liquid has to be transported billions of (indiscernible 15:28). The farmer, they dont work alone. Theyre working in co-ops, then it goes to dryers. Different States have their own rules. Most dryers today just want to make money. There is a cooperation between cheese manufacturing, the cheese manufacturer and the whey. Raw milk cheese manufacturing has a very high scrutiny. This is the highest in cheese that you can get. Its the best tasting. It has the best nutritional value. In Europe, its the most popular cheese especially for example, (indiscernible 16:10) aged cheese. You just try it you could see the difference. What happened, naturally the byproduct is the whey because of the separation between the whey. A smart dryer would take this whey and utilize it into a dry powder, so most of the work is already done on the separation of the raw milk cheese. Because it is a long tradition here, the scrutiny is very high because the cheese has to taste good. You take advantage of this manufacturing to produce good quality whey that also tastes good. So when your whey is water soluble, when your whey is creamy and delicious, and it states that its coming from raw milk, or raw milk cheese manufacturing, it usually comes as a byproduct of raw milk cheese manufacturing. That is going to the dryer. The dryer itself is also very important. Some dryers they dont care. They just do massive amounts of spray dry in a chamber which is heated tremendously. Time is money, the moment you hit fast, the more money you save. A good manufacturer would be much more careful with this. The whey will be dried gradually in lighter films in

smaller amounts. So you dont need to source so much hot air. You can keep the temperature relatively cold temperature. There is less acid. DM: This is cold temperature processing. Its more costly because it takes longer. OM: It takes longer. You need thinner films, the air is not that hot. So basically the whey never exceeds -- the hottest temperature that its exposed usually -- I want to talk about it for a second in the beginning -- its called low temperature pasteurization of 70 degrees Celsius for about 15 seconds. DM: What is 70 degrees in Fahrenheit? OM: Which is 160 degrees Fahrenheit for 10 to 15 seconds. Let me tell you something, the whey component can survive 60 to 70 degrees Celsius if its done in a short time. Time is a factor. The opposite is also true if you put whey in 50 degrees for 45 minutes or an hour, rest assured, you will destroy it. I could tell you, plain and simple, take any milk, put it in 120 degrees in the California dessert, I can tell you nothing will survive in the milk after 10 minutes. It would be totally gone. DM: Other beneficial nutrients that are there in the raw milk are damaged. OM: The program is called short cold pasteurization. Thats a (indiscernible 19:11) after that its just going down to 7 to 10 degrees where its produced. I can tell you, it is a proven effective method. There could be a 5% loss between the raw state of the milk to the final product. A 5% or even a 10% loss is a very good number. DM: Its acceptable considering you have to get it out some way and there is going to be some cost at least mechanically and damage (indiscernible 19:40). OM: There must be some. I call that acceptable collateral damage between 5% to 10%, some people may even say 15%. But even on a 15%, you got 85% concentrated product. Milk is fluid. Even cheese there is much water. This is whey powder. Its a concentrated super food. So even if you lost 15% which you did but even if you dont, you still get massive amount of immuno component and all the amino acid profile that everything your body needs. DM: How could someone who is interested in this and really concerned about making the right choice in their product because if youre going to take a product just once its irrelevant. Theyre not going to go do their homework but if youre going to commit to something long term, you really want to do your due diligence.

Is this something that is typically written on the label or would you have to contact the manufacturer to ask them these specific details? How does one find out if the product theyre interested in purchasing meets this criteria? OM: I asked myself the same question because I have been dealing with it for quite awhile. I can tell you that from now on, we are going to provide certificates which nobody else provides to the grass feeding of the cow, to the expensive lab report, from the immuno component profile which is the key element here because if you are not immuno component intact then everything else isnt intact. These are the first things that will be destroyed. DM: Thats a sensitive indicator. OM: Thats the limiting factor. DM: If that is preserved, you can rest assured everything else is more stable so it will be there. OM: Correct. We are going to provide, and its going to be on your website too. We are going to provide you with the immuno component that nobody else does because if you go to other manufacturers, you will not get it. I can tell you right now, nobody is bound. But its very important for us to make the effort so that you can make your choice. Maybe there are other good whey that Im not aware of. I talked before about New Zealand (whey); I do not believe that this is a good whey. Youre right, not all raw milk and not even all grass-fed cows are good. It has to have all the factors together. We are doing every effort now to bind it together to offer you now what I personally use. DM: And what I use too. OM: Youll use it and your family will use it. Hey, my animals use it and I love my animals. I love my family, I love my animals and I love people basically. I think that they deserve good stuff. Another indicator is taste and solubility. Dont overlook this. If you got any whey and regardless what people say, it could be any store that you like, if it doesnt taste good and its not water soluble, do not use it. If the taste is there, its a big indicator. Its a very good indicator that you got something good. Its water soluble. Its an indicator that amino acid kept their original configuration. So good processing has to start with raw milk by the book, short of sterilization. Make sure its a byproduct of good cheese because cheese need to taste good. DM: Sweet cheese.

OM: Yes, sweet cheese not sour cheese. Do not buy anything in my opinion which claims not to be byproduct of cheese manufacturing. There are people who claim --I already saw a sample, believe me --wrong. Regardless to the fact that commercial casein is done differently, there is not such a scrutiny and I dont believe in even casein manufacturing. Its not a whole food. One of the most important components of the whey is glycomacropeptides (GMP). GMP has amazing immuno components. Its critically important for your gut flora which is a very important immuno component of the whey. When you dont produce it from cheese, you dont get it. So whey which is produced from milk by separation of casein, most likely would be deficient in GMP and it wont taste good. Why would you buy something? I dont know, have you tasted synthetic commercial casein? DM: I dont believe so. OM: It tastes like cardboard. DM: Obviously taste is a simple one and basic but its something we should encourage people to consider. Lets talk about milk allergy for a bit. Because obviously there is a fair amount of people who have milk allergy. I believe a large portion of that is related to drinking pasteurized milk. But nevertheless, there is a population who has this. This is a little bit different because most of the milk allergy is I think -- its not really an allergy but many people look at the lactase deficiency as being the problem. So there is really no lactose in whey protein so that youre not going to have the runs if you have lactase intolerance. OM: First of all, those who have milk allergy most of them actually we attribute to the lactose. Even though there are minimum amount of lactose which is essential to the body, we need lactose in whey protein concentrate. Its such a small amount that it does not cause a reaction. But more than that, the reason why some people can tolerate lactose more than others is because of enzymatic production in the body. What is becoming clearer is that you can train your body to become more and more tolerant towards milk by introducing whey protein. Whey protein is more like the best way to introduce because its low in lactose. It will give you all the benefit. Dont start with large amount. Small meals, gradually, train your body. Youre going to see the difference. Its like eating beans. DM: There is really very small amount of casein if much at all in there. OM: Nothing at all.

DM: There is no casein. OM: They have glycomacropeptides with no casein. DM: You got all the good things of the casein but no casein. So if youre truly allergic to milk and not lactose intolerant, then more than likely, youd be able to tolerate the whey protein. OM: I believe there is a very good chance and give the body a chance. Dont rush. Introduce one serving at a time. DM: Half a serving, quarter serving -OM: Yeah. We have many followers that initially complain about milk allergy who tolerate the formula very well. I really think that people should try it. The positive thing, at times, it will work for you. If by any chance, you have massive reaction, you run to the bathroom if not nothing really works. Then probably its too late. I know people who are sensitive to eggs. DM: You really cant have it. It would be sad because its such a phenomenal food. Its significant. Maybe 1/3 of my food is protein, maybe more especially now because Im in a phase in my life where Im seeking to actually put about 5 or 6 lbs of muscle mass, maybe even 10 lbs. So Im using this as a tool to do that. Youve outlined some clear processes that differentiate the low quality whey protein from a high quality. There is obviously cost to do this. There is more time effort and energy and someone has got to be paid from the producer of the milk all the way up the chain because there is extra cost to them. So it costs more to produce to this in the final product. Clearly this whey protein is more expensive than many you would find at a typical store. I think its more than justified. Were not interested in selling low quality food. It really takes effort and energy to produce this type of quality. Im wondering if someone for whatever reason they cant justify this long term and they need to make a compromise, what would you recommend as a second best source? You know, because the economy is a challenge and many people are strapped for funds. They simply cant pay the rent, let alone buy whey protein. OM: If you dont find quality whey protein in the form of a powder, go for real food. DM: The real milk. Obviously, thats the best way.


OM: Yes. DM: We have ways -- you just search on our site to find sources for that. Even if its not legal on your state, its still possible to purchase. I think is another resource that you can find pretty established vendors that are close to you. OM: You can find great cheeses today if youre looking for raw milk cheese. DM: The other benefit is with the cheese, in the fermentation process, there is typically vitamin K2. A phenomenal vitamin which is difficult to get on a normal diet, but the only place that has is fermented foods and the most common one being cheeses. OM: Cheese has it, correct, especially aged cheese, a good source for vitamin A and D. (indiscernible 28:29) great taste. Once you develop a taste for that, you can really enjoy it. The taste is very important. There is so much research that show good milk product especially cheese even butter form protein (indiscernible 28:43) cheese and whey can do amazingly good. One thing we didnt mention is the calcium. Calcium have shown to be critical not just support any metabolic pathway and bone formation. Its actually critically important for the contraction of the muscle. We are losing a lot of calcium when we exercise and other stress. The whey minerals are the best in the world. Whats interesting about these minerals including the organic minerals that basically they are water soluble. What makes them water soluble is the fat in milk everybody wants to remove. The phospholipids help with delivery of these cations, positive charged ion minerals like calcium and prevent it from being non-water soluble calcium which is very adverse and dangerous to your kidney. So if youre looking for a good source of minerals, and we went all the way to add to the formula, a sweet whey which is almost like native whey. Before we have the concentrate, we have sweet whey which is very high in minerals. We have a little bit of a sweet whey through the formula together with the whey to give you every possible aspect that you can get in raw milk, including the minerals and the amino acids, the immuno component. All the research shows that dairy protein and calcium by itself are helpful in weight loss. Only that dairy products have the advantage of being thermogenic more than other protein. It had just been a few years ago, they researched soy against milk on women. They found 10% or 15% effect on energy expenditure. That means the whey has much higher thermogenic effect.


DM: Which means that when youre sleeping youre burning calories more on this than the other one. Just to emphasize what you have pointed and mentioned earlier; that the milk protein or the milk by itself as a food actually has highest biological value, higher than any other protein source available, which is kind of confusing. At least in my previous understanding when I was studying this was that eggs had a biological value of a hundred and then everything was based on that and then certainly meat would be another consideration. OM: The FAO, WHO which are the two main organizations that dictate how we are supposed to eat in balance, and the RDA were all based on minimum consumption of amino acid on protein evaluation to survive. But today this concept is obsolete. Due to the fact that currently scientists realize and not realized its being proven that there are other components in amino acid, because they signal the gene, and they signal not just to build muscle, they signal the gene to do many other metabolic actions, protective action, immuno action, and many other actions. So what happens, certain kind of amino acid need to be way higher than others. In fact, the more you put in, the better it is. DM: Like the leucine. OM: Like leucine for example. The other amino acids like arginine and phenylalanine. All branched chain amino acids are supposed to be higher. Were talking about different kinds of concepts. By far, dairy proteins have shown to carry more of this nutrient than anything else. So if we compare the bioavailability on the old test from the 70s -- they were done in the 70s -- whey and eggs obviously. But on the last concept and especially the last (indiscernible 32:57) after the year 2000 to the last three years, the whole argument that amino acid biologically serve other purposes for your metabolic health. This concept is obsolete. Whey is higher than eggs. Im not against eggs. Eggs also have biological (indiscernible 33:17). DM: You consume them too. OM: I consume it. I love eggs. There is no argument that dairy are superior to meat. They are superior to fish. They are superior to eggs. Eggs actually is one of the best protein around. We can do very well on eggs. Eggs are better than meat and fish too. Thats a very interesting (indiscernible 33:39).


I find it hard to say that because quite honestly every food has its own advantages. Meat is a great carrier of iron, (indiscernible 33:48) dont contain iron. But as far as the concept of supplying food amino acid, (indiscernible 33:56) essential amino acid. Bioactive compound and amino acid, hands down dairy is the best. I know that many people hate dairy. They say that and theyre bashing. They say that it causes infection and it causes disease. I absolutely say; go back, do your homework and look at the research. Its (indiscernible 34:20) on the face. Lacto-vegetarian societies did extremely well. [End]