Australian Crime Commission Transcripts

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Legislative Restrictions On Use, Access & Publication Apply
TRANSCRIPT
OF PROCEEDINGS
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AUSTRALIAN CRIME COMMISSION
Mr T. Sage, Examiner
Examinations
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SYDNEY
Monday 3 February 2014
QUALITY CONTROL CHECKED BY BRAD RAWE 19/02/2014.
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MR RAWE:
All stand.
This Examination of the Australian Crime
Commission is now in session.
MR SAGE:
Take a seat, thank you. Yes Ms Deakin.
MS DEAKIN:
Thank you Sir.
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This is an Examination being held
pursuant to Summons number S zero zero sixteen slash one four (0016/14). The
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witnesss name is
The witness appears without
legal representation and I understand he wishes to make some submissions on

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that basis. For the record, I note that the witness was served with the Summons
on Tuesday the twenty eighth (28th) of January at one ten (1:10) pm and I will
tender a Statutory Declaration of David Conceicao. I, the witness telephoned the
ACC at approximately four thirty (4:30) pm on Thursday to advise that he had
contacted a barrister who had said that he was unavailable today and wished to
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move it to Tuesday. After some difficulty with the phone number, the witness had
changed his phones and I managed to contact him later morning Friday the twenty
(20), sorry, Friday the thirty first (31st) of January and spoke to the witness and
said to him that you were minded not to allow the adjournment and that if his
barrister was not available he ought to get another barrister and I asked the
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witness to have his rep legal representative to telephone me. I had no further
contact with the witness. This morning I met with him outside the Examination
Room and he indicated that he had not been able to get another lawyer in time.
For the record, I perhaps should tender the Summons so we can get started.
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MR SAGE:
Yes, it will be useful to have the Summons,
MS DEAKIN:
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
On the record before I hear from Mr
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MS DEAKIN:
If you could show those to the witness. Mr
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can
you just have a look at those documents, flip through and just, are you satisfied
that that seems to be the same document that,
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
Mr Conceicao served on you on Tuesday?
You dont
have to read every word but does that look like the same document?
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MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Yes.
ZZ
Yeah.
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MR SAGE:
MR
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Is your name on the front page Mr
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Yeah, it is.
MS DEAKIN:
Yes. And the other document that youve just been given,
you havent seen that before but that a Statutory Declaration from our office
saying that at one ten (1:10) pm he handed you those documents.
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
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MS DEAKIN:
Okay.
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MS DEAKIN:
If you could give those back, tender those.
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MR SAGE:
The Summons number sixteen of two thousand and
fourteen (16/2014) addressed to the witness returnable today the third (3rd) of
February at ten (10:00) am together with Annexure A, a copy of the Australian
Crime Commission Special Operation Authorisation and Determination National
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Security Impacts from Serious and Organised Crime number two (2) of two
thousand and thirteen (2013). Annexure B, a document headed Statement of
Rights and Obligations pursuant to Subsection 29A(3) of the Australian Crime
Commission Act 2002. Annexure C Explanatory Notes. Also with the Summons
is a Statutory Declaration which evidences the service of the Summons on the
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witness on the twenty eighty of January two thousand and fourteen (28/01/2014)
at one ten (1:10) pm. Those documents will be Exhibit one (1). Thank you. Mr
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you wanted to say something to me about your attempts to get a legal
representative?
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ZZ
No, I just wanted to know if I could,
MR SAGE:
You need to keep your voice up, I,
MR
MR
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ZZ
I just wanted to know if I could have maybe a day or so in
order to, cause Im not really sure, like what to do or whats going on really so, Id
like if I could someone.
MR SAGE:
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MR
Who have you spoken to?
ZZ
Ive, my barristers name is Phil Butterfield and he told me
he would be available for tomorrow.
MR SAGE:
Now when Ms Deakin told you that it was possible that I
would not be giving you an adjournment unless you needed to engage another
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barrister, what did you do?
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MR
ZZ
I did, I tried my best but it was by the time I tried to
engage one it was Thursday and no-one would be free on Monday.
MR SAGE:
Who did you speak to?
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MR
ZZ
I spoke to a guy named David in Liverpool and he wasnt
free till Monday and I asked Phil Butterfield if he could send someone else and he
couldnt either.
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MR SAGE:
MR
He didnt recommend someone?
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He couldnt, he said no-one is available at that short
notice, so.
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MR SAGE:
MR
Well, youve had since last Tuesday,
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I know, I did get onto it as soon as possible but it just
didnt work out for me.
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MR SAGE:
The, tomorrow is not suitable to me and later in the week
is not suitable and as far as Im concerned youve had enough time to get a
barrister. What is going to happen if the Examination proceeds today is that
youre going to be asked a series of questions before that happens Ill give you an
opportunity to claim self-incrimination and Ill give a direction, so that what you say
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in this Examination cannot be used against you in a court. The direction that I
would give would be subject to two (2) exceptions where your evidence may be
used in a court, that is confiscation proceedings to recover proceeds of crime and
a second (2nd) exception where your evidence here can be used even if I do give
a direction is if you were to give false evidence in your Examination. So when
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youre questioned, if you lie, dont tell the truth, its referred to in the Australian
Crime Commission Act as false evidence. If you give false evidence then thats a
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serious offence and you can be prosecuted for that, so thats the exception where
your evidence could be used in a court. Every other offence it cannot be used
against you. You understand?
MR
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Yeah.
MR SAGE:
MR
Now are you prepared to be examined today?
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I, is it,
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MR SAGE:
MR
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Pardon?
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What do you mean by that?
MR SAGE:
Well, what my intention is to continue the Examination
now. And Im asking you, are you prepared to answer questions today?
MR
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I would like if I could adjourn it but if I have to yeah, of
course.
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MR SAGE:
Well, I, in my opinion you had enough time to get a
barrister or solicitor,
MR
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There wasnt, it was just wasnt,
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MR SAGE:
MR
Or both.
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Yeah, just, I dont know cause it was a week, if was less
than a week, so.

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MR SAGE:
Well its,
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MR
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Monday is a busy day for it too.
MR SAGE:
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Its almost a week. Im sure if you spoke to Mr Butterfield
he could have referred you to someone else.
MR
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No, I did ask but he said cause by the time I asked him it
was Thursday, he goes I cant get someone for Monday.
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MR SAGE:
Mr
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Im going to continue with the Examination,
youll be asked questions, okay. You understand?
MR
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ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
Thank you. Anything further you wish to put Ms Deakin
before I go,
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MS DEAKIN:
No thank you Sir.
MR SAGE:
To my opening remarks. Mr
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what Im going to do
now is Im going to tell you some things about the Examination and I want you to
listen carefully to what Ill say to you. The first (1st) thing Ill tell you is that Im an
Examiner appointed under the Australian Crime Commission Act. And you have
been summonsed today to give evidence in relation to the matters that are
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mentioned on the Summons. I know it doesnt give you much detail but as youre,
as the questions are asked of you it will become apparent what the issues are that
we want to question you about today. You may be asked questions concerning
other matters other then those that are mentioned on the Summons but I expect
that most of the questions will relate to the subject matter on the Summons.
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Examination will be conducted in private and I direct that the persons whose
names appear on a sheet in front of me which I will sign and date with todays
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date are the only persons who may be present during your Examination. Before
you give your evidence you are required to either swear an oath or to make an
affirmation. I understand that youve indicated that you will swear an Islamic Oath,
is that correct?
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MR
ZZ
(Witness nods his head).
MR SAGE:
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MR
You need to answer.
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Yes.
MR SAGE:
MR
And you will swear that on the Koran?
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Yes.
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MR SAGE:
Now thats the Koran as I understand thats wrapped in
front of you. If you wish to hold it, open the cover or do anything else with it thats
a matter for you, you can decide that, whatever you believe you need to do to
swear an oath on the Koran. Okay.
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MR
ZZ
Yeah. So do I,
MR SAGE:
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MR
Pardon?
ZZ
Do I do it now or,
MR SAGE:
What Im going to do is read the oath to you that Ive
approved and you can tell me if it is okay for you to swear. Its an Islamic Oath, its
in these words, I, then youll say your full name, swear with the sacred Koran in
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my hand before Allah that the evidence I shall give in the course of this
Examination shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, Allah is
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my judge and my maker. And then you can put your hand on or you can put your
head on, hold the Koran whichever you choose to do. Is that okay for you?
MR
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Yeah.
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MR SAGE:
MR
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Now youll have to stand.
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Yes Sir.
MR SAGE:
MR
Can you read English?
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Yes.
MR SAGE:
Do you want to hold the Koran.
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MR
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I swear with the sacred Koran in my hand before Allah
that the evidence I shall give in the course of this Examination shall be the truth,
the whole truth and nothing but the truth, Allah is my judge and my maker.
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MR SAGE:
Thank you. You can take a seat. And could you tell me
your full name?
MR
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ZZ
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MR SAGE:
MR
And
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is
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
is
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MR
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Yeah.
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MR SAGE:
MR
and
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is
Yes.
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MR SAGE:
MR
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And where do you live Mr
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MR SAGE:
MR
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And your occupation?
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I dont work.
MR SAGE:
So youre on some benefits?
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MR
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No.
MR SAGE:
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MR
No. Youre just, youre not employed?
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No.
MR SAGE:
Okay. Some further matters I need to mention to you.
The first (1st) is that your evidence today is being recorded electronically in its
entirety using audio and video equipment.
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Ill also tell you your rights and
obligations under the Australian Crime Commission Act. The Act provides that
you must answer all questions that I require you to answer and you must produce
all documents or things that I require you to produce. If a document or thing is
required during your Examination and you dont have it with you, then
arrangements can be made for the material to be delivered to the Commission.
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Ms Deakin who youve met today is Counsel Assisting she is going to ask you
most of the questions. And when she asks you a question, shes asking on my
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behalf or for me and you must answer her questions.
You must answer the
questions and produce documents or things that are required from you even if
they may tend to incriminate you or render you liable to a penalty. As I said earlier
to you the Australian Crime Commission provides protection for you from self5
incrimination and what Im prepared to do is give a direction that your evidence

here cannot be used against you for a criminal prosecution for any offence or for
imposing any penalty on you.
I mentioned to you that there were two (2)
exceptions where your evidence may be used in a court, in confiscation

proceedings to recover proceeds of crime and if you gave false evidence thats an
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offence and if you were prosecuted for that offence then your evidence here may
be used against you or can be used against you in that prosecution. So do you
understand?
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
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MR SAGE:
Do you wish me to make a direction giving you that
protection?
MR
ZZ
Yeah, yes please.
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MR SAGE:
Thank you. What I will do now is give the direction and I
give the direction under Subsection 5 of Section 30 of the Australian Crime

Commission Act and I direct that the evidence of this witness is not admissible in
evidence against him in any criminal proceedings or a proceeding to impose a
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penalty other than in confiscation proceedings or secondly a proceeding in respect

of firstly, in the case of an answer, the falsity of the answer, secondly, in the
production of a document, the falsity of any statement contained in the document.
Mr
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that direction gives you the protection I mentioned to you subject to the
two (2) exceptions. I now need to remind you that you must give truthful evidence
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in this Examination you have sworn an oath to give truthful evidence. If you do
give evidence which is false or misleading in a material particular or if you produce
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a document or thing during your Examination which contains a statement that you
know is untrue and you dont tell me then that is a serious offence. It carries or
attracts a significant fine or a term of imprisonment to a maximum of five (5) years.
So do you understand the importance of telling the truth?
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MR
ZZ
Yes.
MR SAGE:
If you dont tell the truth, you lose the protection that Ive
given you.
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MR
ZZ
Yes.
MR SAGE:
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MR
Okay?
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MR SAGE:
Now a lot of information and evidence material has been
gathered and some of it relates to you and thats what we want to question you
about today and that is the reason why you need to tell the truth. Okay?
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MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
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MR
Do you understand?
ZZ
Yes.
MR SAGE:
Yeah. Now youre softly spoken, youll have to keep your
voice up.
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MR
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Yeah.
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MR SAGE:
If I turn the air conditioning off, its going to get too hot in
here and it makes quite a bit of noise, its a bigger room, its a big room, so youll
have to keep your voice up and not only does it have to be recorded, Ms Deakin
has to hear it, I have to hear it and the other people have to hear it, hear what you
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say. Okay?
MR
ZZ
Yes.
MR SAGE:
So speak in a loud voice,
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MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
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MR
Otherwise Ill have to keep reminding you.
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Yeah.
MR SAGE:
Righto. Ms Deakin, thank you.
MS DEAKIN:
Thank you Sir. So, Mr
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ZZ
you live at
MR
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Yes.
MS DEAKIN:
Yeah. Who else lives there?
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MR
ZZ
My Mum and my Dad and my sister.
MS DEAKIN:
And what, your Mum, your Dad and your sister, what are
their names?
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MR
ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
Tell me their full names please?
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ZZ
5
MS DEAKIN:
MR
10
Spell your mothers surname please?
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
And how old is
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MS DEAKIN:
Do you have any other siblings?
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MR
ZZ
Yes, my brother.
MS DEAKIN:
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MR
Your brother, whats his name?
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
And where does
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live?
Hes in prison.
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MS DEAKIN:
Now since you were served with the Summons on
Tuesday who have you spoken to about coming here today?
MR
ZZ
Just Phil.
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MS DEAKIN:
Just Phil,
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MR
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Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
The barrister?
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MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
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MR
Yeah, you havent spoken to anybody else?
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
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Did you tell your Mum that you were coming here today?
ZZ
No, she saw the AFP at the front, she knew I was served
with documents,
MS DEAKIN:
MR
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Okay.
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And like she doesnt know what it is exactly but she knows
like Im, I have to come somewhere.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Okay. Do you have a mobile phone?
ZZ
Yeah.
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
30
Yeah, whats the phone number?
ZZ
I wouldnt know it by heart.
MS DEAKIN:
How long have you had that phone?
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MR
ZZ
Ive changed my number last week but I never had my
numbers off by heart.
MS DEAKIN:
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Okay. So you got a new, did you get a whole new phone
or new SIM or what?
MR
ZZ
No, just new, just, on my plans I can just change the
number.
10
MS DEAKIN:
Okay. So why did you decide to change your number last
week?
MR
15
ZZ
Oh just from annoying people, so.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Right. But its the same handset is it?
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
Yeah. Did you bring that today?
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MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
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MR
Yes.
ZZ
Its in the locker.
MS DEAKIN:
Okay. I would like to seek an order that the contents of
that phone be produced. What that means is Im going to ask the Examiner to
order you to give the phone to us and were going to download it, the contents of
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the disk and give the phone back to you.
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MR
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Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
Okay. Sir, I seek that order.
MR SAGE:
Okay. Mr
MR
ZZ
ZZ
where is the phone?
Its in the locker.
MR SAGE:
And youve got the key?
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MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
Okay. No, you keep the key. And you dont know the
number of the SIM card?

15
MR
ZZ
No, I (wds).
MS DEAKIN:
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MR
Perhaps I can assist, is this the, I rang you on Friday,
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On,
MS DEAKIN:
MR
It was that phone that I rang you on, yeah?
ZZ
The, I called youse on.
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
30
You called me,
ZZ
Yeah, the number I called youse on, yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
Okay. So you first called us on a number last week and
then that was disconnected,

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MR
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Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
And then there was a new number,
5
MR
ZZ
And then I put another number, yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
Okay. So the new number was

). You dont know the number,
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MR
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
But Im saying thats the number that we contacted you on
Friday,
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MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
And thats the same number that you still have today,
right?
20
MR
25
ZZ
You can grab my phone (wd).
MS DEAKIN:
Okay.
MR SAGE:
Okay. Now,
MS DEAKIN:
So well check that, yeah.
MR SAGE:
What Im going to do is require you to produce the phone,
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MR
ZZ
Yeah.
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MR SAGE:
So the contents of the phone, the data on it can be
downloaded. I will leave the bench shortly. My assistant will take you out, you
can bring the phone in, you can identify it to me and then it will be handed to my
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assistant and hopefully you will get it back today.
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
Okay?
MS DEAKIN:
And Ill also ask, is there a password on that phone or a
MR
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lock?
MR
ZZ
Yeah, Ill give it to youse.
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MS DEAKIN:
Yeah.
Well get, yeah, well ask you to write that
password down.
MR SAGE:
You can write the password down when you come back.
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MR
25
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
Okay. Thank you. Ill take a short adjournment.
MR RAWE:
All stand. Well take a short adjournment.
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MR RAWE:
All stand. Examination is now in session.
MR SAGE:
Mr
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ZZ
youve handed the phone to my assistant,
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MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
And you wrote the code on the,
5
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
10
MR
Sheet of paper?
ZZ
Yes.
MR SAGE:
Ill make the code the next Exhibit, a handwritten note with
the code to the phone produced by the witness, code seven five two five (7525)
will be Exhibit two (2). Thank you. Ms Deakin.
15
20
MS DEAKIN:
I might ask if the analyst could take that,
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MS DEAKIN:
That phone out now so the download can commence.
Alright.
Well proceed with the Examination.
Now you mentioned that you
changed your number fairly regularly just to get a new SIM but you dont any of
your old numbers?
25
MR
ZZ
No, I dont know.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Where, do you write them down somewhere?
ZZ
Pardon?
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MS DEAKIN:
You write them down anywhere?
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MR
ZZ
No, I just, I dont know, I just havent (wds).
MS DEAKIN:
How do people know how to contact you?
5
MR
ZZ
I dont know. When I want to talk to someone, Ill call him
really quick.
MS DEAKIN:
Alright. You dont want to talk to them,
10
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
Get a new phone.
ZZ
(Wds).
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Okay. Alright. Is there a landline at your parents home?
ZZ
Yeah.
20
MS DEAKIN:
MR
25
Whats that number?
ZZ
Its in my phone, I dont know either.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Oh okay. So youve got a list of contacts in that phone?
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
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Yeah. We might look at them later if we have a chance to
download it. Alright. Do you have a computer?
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MR
ZZ
Yes.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Yeah. What a laptop or (wd)?
ZZ
We got a couple but theyve actually recently like they
dont work anymore.
MS DEAKIN:
10
MR
Okay.
ZZ
One of them had a fan problem, heating problem, so it just
stopped working. Another one just wasnt working for a while (wds),
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
Okay.
ZZ
We dont really have a computer right now.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Do you have an email address?
ZZ
Yeah.
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
25
Whats your email address?
ZZ
mmhm,
MS DEAKIN:
MR
mmhm,
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
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MR
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
At hotmail.
ZZ
Yeah.
5
MS DEAKIN:
MR
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Yeah. Okay. How long have you had that address?
ZZ
Been a while now, been a while.
MS DEAKIN:
Is there anything specif, anything particular about
or just,
MR
15
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Oh yes.
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
Of course.
yeah.
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MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
So youve had that one for a while, what a couple of
weeks, couple of months, couple of years?

25
MR
ZZ
Couple of years it has been, yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
A couple of years, okay. Do you have any other email
addresses?
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MR
ZZ
Ive got a few actually, but I wouldnt like know them off
the top of my head.
MS DEAKIN:
Where, with which service provider?
5
MR
ZZ
Outlook and Ive got my iTunes one,
MS DEAKIN:
10
MR
(Wd).
ZZ
Or iCloud one.
Pardon?
The one I buy apps on my
iPhone.
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
Yeah.
ZZ
Its the same one just at iCloud dot com.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
So mmhm
ZZ
).
Yeah at iCloud, yes.
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
And you have that same thing like an (app)?
ZZ
I just what apps, just see what apps its on my credit card
information.
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MS DEAKIN:
Okay.
What about with, what about other service
providers,
MR
ZZ
I dont know, Ive had a few.
30
MS DEAKIN:
Outlook, Gmail.
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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
No, Ive had a few over the years, no, Im always (wds)
told me (wds),
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Yeah.
ZZ
So I dont know but, I dont, like Ive had a few over the
years, the only one,
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
And its always been that, youve always had,
ZZ
The one Ive got control off,
MS DEAKIN:
Yeah.
15
MR
ZZ
And do everything is off that one.
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
How do you mean the one you got control off?
ZZ
Like cause Ive lost the password Ive been using, the
names and that, so Ive had a couple of these.
MS DEAKIN:
Right. Okay. So thats the only, the hotmail one, is that
the only one you use at the moment?

25
MR
ZZ
Yeah, the same one. No, Ive got a couple but I dont
know the email off by heart, so I dont know like might have to get it from my
phone.
30
MS DEAKIN:
Okay.
And again those details probably be in your
phone?
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MR
ZZ
Yeah, it will be in the phone.
MS DEAKIN:
Alright. Do you have a Facebook account?
5
MR
ZZ
I do but its on and off and like,
MS DEAKIN:
10
MR
What do you mean?
ZZ
Like I take it off and put it on.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Okay.
ZZ
Like, sometimes I dont go onto at all (wds).
15
MS DEAKIN:
MR
20
Yeah. Alright. And whats your Facebook profile called?
ZZ
Its, my profile pic?
MS DEAKIN:
Yeah, no, what is it, whats, sorry, whats your account
called?
MR
25
ZZ
Its
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
Right. What is your pic, is it something,
30
MR
ZZ
(Wds) whats your profile pic,
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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
Okay.
ZZ
I didnt explain it, through my mate.
5
MS DEAKIN:
MR
10
Yeah, you and your mate, yeah. Who?
ZZ
Pardon?
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Whos your mate?
ZZ
His name is Ali.
MS DEAKIN:
Ali.
15
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
Whats his proper name?
ZZ
Ali (wds).
MS DEAKIN:
How come you chose to put a picture with you two (2) up
on there?
25
MR
ZZ
I dont know, hes a good mate, a friend, so.
MS DEAKIN:
Okay.
Are you, do you use any other kind of social
media?
30
MR
ZZ
No, not really, I havent used the (wd) for a week but it
didnt really work out for me.

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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
Okay. No, nothing else?
ZZ
No, nothing else.
5
MS DEAKIN:
MR
10
No.
ZZ
Just Facebook.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Now you said you dont have a job at the moment,
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
And youre not on any benefits,
15
MR
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
So how do you get money?
ZZ
My parents usually support me, so.
MS DEAKIN:
Do you have an allowance, how do they pay you, before
how much money do you get from them?
25
MR
ZZ
Whatever I need I usually just ask them, theyll give me.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Well where do they get money from?
ZZ
They work.
30
MS DEAKIN:
They both have jobs?
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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
5
Yeah. Okay. And approximately how much money do
they give you per week?
MR
ZZ
Like it matter if I want to do something like over the top or
if I want to go out, theyd give me more money than usual. I usually, like I get
maybe fifty (50) bucks a day.
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
15
And how do you get that money from them?
ZZ
Cash, yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Cash, yeah. They have that much cash at home usually?
ZZ
Yeah, usually my Mums got fifty (50) in her wallet or,
MS DEAKIN:
20
But just, your Mum gives you fifty dollars ($50) every day
is that how it works?
MR
ZZ
Like some days shell no give me but when I ask her get
usually you know, they do tell me to go and get a job but they still give me.
25
MS DEAKIN:
Excuse me.
So around about three hundred and fifty
(350) a week, sometimes more?
MR
ZZ
Yeah, if I want to go out on the weekend, they give me
more.
30
MS DEAKIN:
Well, how about last week, how much did you get?
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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
About three (3), four hundred (400) I would say.
MS DEAKIN:
Thee (3) or four hundred (400).
5
MR
ZZ
Yeah, I would (wds).
MS DEAKIN:
Okay.
And what would be the most in any week that
youve got from your parents?

10
MR
ZZ
Like if I want to, if on a weekend, I might get maybe two
hundred (200) bucks plus maybe the three hundred (300) of the week or
something, so.
15
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Okay. So, some weeks,
ZZ
Sometimes it matters,
MS DEAKIN:
Five hundred (500), some weeks.
20
MR
ZZ
Like if I need, yeah, if I need more, then if I want to buy
something, theyll help me out a lot.
MS DEAKIN:
You mentioned you have a credit card as well.
25
MR
ZZ
A debit card.
MS DEAKIN:
30
MR
A debit card.
ZZ
Yeah.
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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
Right. So you have a bank account?
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
With which bank?
ZZ
The NAB.
MS DEAKIN:
NAB. Alright. How long have you had that?
10
MR
ZZ
Oh, about seven (7) months,
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
Alright.
ZZ
Eight (8) months, I think.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
20
And where did you bank before that?
ZZ
Ive never usually used the bank but I was with St George
before that and I was with Commonwealth but for my St George account there I
never put money in them, maybe like a hundred (100) bucks here and there. And
then, I dont know just, I never know why I stopped, just with the NAB.
MS DEAKIN:
25
So how does money, excuse me, get into your NAB
account?
MR
ZZ
Oh my Mum puts sometimes.
MS DEAKIN:
Your Mum,
30
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
Puts money into your account?
ZZ
My Mum tells me to save this and,
5
MS DEAKIN:
MR
10
Alright. So you get, most days you get fifty dollars ($50),
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
From your Mum,
ZZ
Or my Dad.
MS DEAKIN:
15
And or your Dad, okay. So, on an average week youd
get three hundred and fifty dollars ($350) plus a bit extra if you want to go out on a
weekend.
MR
20
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
Is it far to say maybe about five hundred dollars ($500)
cash most weeks?
MR
25
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
Yeah. Okay. Five hundred (500) cash most weeks and
how much goes into your bank account most weeks?
MR
ZZ
Oh some, sometimes, oh sometimes my Mum would give
me money just to hold.

30
MS DEAKIN:
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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
Yeah. If you need it, if you need anything take this, take
that and,
MS DEAKIN:
MR
What gives you cash to hold?
ZZ
Yeah like to save.
MS DEAKIN:
Alright.
10
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
But,
ZZ
But Im not sure,
MS DEAKIN:
MR
20
No, lets just go back a step.
ZZ
Like she gets, she gets, she doesnt let me touch it, like
she, its for me but I cant touch it right away.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
And is that in cash or,
ZZ
Yeah, in cash, I take it to the bank I put it in the bank.
25
MS DEAKIN:
Okay. So sometimes your Mum gives you money and
says put that in the bank and dont use it.
MR
30
ZZ
And sometimes and the rest of the days I just get fifty (50)
a day, get (wds).
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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
Alright.
And then you said your Mum sometimes puts
money in the account as well?
MR
5
ZZ
No, I, shell give me the money to put in the account,
thats right.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
She never puts it in directly?
ZZ
No.
10
MS DEAKIN:
Youre the only, are you the only one that operates that
account?
MR
ZZ
Yes, its mine, its in my name.
15
MS DEAKIN:
Yeah. And, so any deposits into that account, thats you
putting money in,
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
20
MS DEAKIN:
MR
25
Nobody else puts money in there?
ZZ
No. A couple of times people have put money in.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Yeah, who else?
ZZ
Just my brothers friend put money in.
MS DEAKIN:
Why?
30
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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
He would just, we had sold him tyres for a car and he put
money to my account and thats about it.
MS DEAKIN:
How much was that?
5
MR
ZZ
Its about a thousand dollars ($1,000), more, maybe
fifteen hundred (1,500).
MS DEAKIN:
And how long ago was that?
10
MR
ZZ
Not long, it wouldnt be, theyre slicks, theyre called slicks
there, theyre good tyres, so theyre pretty expensive.
MS DEAKIN:
So your brother, you sold tyres,
15
MR
ZZ
My brother had a friend who just got out of prison and hes
transferred the money to my account when he got out cause he bought the tyres.
MS DEAKIN:
Where did he buy, who did he buy the tyres from?
20
MR
ZZ
From me.
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
And where did you get them?
ZZ
My cousin gave them to me for free actually.
MS DEAKIN:
So just get this clear. Your cousin, whats your cousins
name?
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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
ZZ
the same name as me. He gave me
the tyres for free and when my brothers friend came out of prison which is very
recently, he came and his father actually came and picked them up but,
MS DEAKIN:
So your cousin gave you fifteen hundred dollar ($1,500)
tyres for free,
MR
10
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Well where did he get them?
ZZ
No, he got them, (wd), he was getting new tyres so he
gave me his old ones.
15
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Sounds like it and he didnt want anything from you?
ZZ
No. We got,
MS DEAKIN:
Do you owe him a favour?
20
MR
ZZ
Yes a trip with us.
MS DEAKIN:
Well, excuse me. Alright. So you got these tyres from
and
friend, whats the friend called?
25
MR
ZZ
David.
MS DEAKIN:
30
MR
David,
ZZ
Yeah.
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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
David what?
ZZ
I dont know, I just call him David.
MS DEAKIN:
David, got out of jail, needed new tyres and gave you
fifteen hundred bucks (1,500) for that,
MR
10
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
And you gave him your bank account details,
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
And he put the money in there,
15
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
And this was how long ago?
ZZ
Not long ago.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
What a couple of weeks,
ZZ
Yeah.
25
MS DEAKIN:
MR
A couple of days, what?
ZZ
Something, no about, more than a couple of weeks, I
dont know around that,

30
MS DEAKIN:
This year or last year?
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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
No, this year.
MS DEAKIN:
This year. Okay. So sometime in the last four (4) weeks?
5
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
Okay. Alright. Is there any other time when anyone else
has put money into your account?

10
MR
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
Only that one time?
ZZ
Never.
MS DEAKIN:
How come you only need to put money in rather than give
him your cash?
20
MR
ZZ
I dont know, thats how it works, I dont know, my brother
told him to put the money in and go pick them up.
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
Did he put cash in or did he transfer it?
ZZ
Oh I think my brother was a bit hesitant like just in case
something went wrong, so he goes put the money in the account and then take,
MS DEAKIN:
30
MR
But did he, was it a transfer or was it cash deposit?
ZZ
Deposit, I dont know, I,
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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
You dont know, anyway,
ZZ
(Wds).
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Fifteen hundred bucks (1,500) appears in your account.
ZZ
My bank accounts on my phone.
MS DEAKIN:
Okay. So is that your money or
10
MR
ZZ
No, its mine. Oh were just brothers everything is ours,
together, so.
MS DEAKIN:
15
Okay. Alright. Is there any other time that anyone else
has put money in either transfer in or cash in?
MR
ZZ
No, I dont think so, no.
MS DEAKIN:
20
Any other deposits of money into your account, thats you
putting money in,
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
Okay.
25
MR
ZZ
Yes.
MS DEAKIN:
30
MR
Is there any where else that you get money from,
ZZ
My brothers girlfriend, maybe has transferred a couple of
times but youse have to check it out cause I,

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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
Okay. Wait a minute. Lets just go through this carefully.
So, you, your brothers girlfriend may have transferred money a couple of times,
MR
ZZ
No, he hasnt said,
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Why do you say that?
ZZ
Cause Ive received money from her but,
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
15
You remember that, yeah,
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Whats her name?
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
Walker.
20
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
ZZ
I dont know how to spell it.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
how do you spell that?
And whats her, you dont, what her other name?
ZZ
I dont know.
30
MS DEAKIN:
So (
has, you think put money in your account,
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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
A couple of times, how much?
5
MR
ZZ
I dont know, no.
MS DEAKIN:
10
MR
Are we talking fifty (50) or five hundred (500)?
ZZ
No, Im talking maybe five hundred (500), something like,
maybe a thousand (1,000) something like that, go have a check on it, Im not
really sure.
MS DEAKIN:
No, but Im asking from your memory,
15
MR
ZZ
Theres been a bit, yeah, no, its maybe five hundred
(500) plus be there.
MS DEAKIN:
Well how much plus?
20
MR
ZZ
I dont know, around five (5).
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
Around five hundred (500)?
ZZ
Yeah, two thousand (2,000) or something.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
30
All together?
ZZ
Yeah, we, maybe its been a couple of times, Ive got bad
memory, so.
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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
Well okay. Then lets just try to just think carefully, okay.
You mentioned (
how many times can you remember that she put money
in?
MR
ZZ
Ill say twice.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Well is that what you remember?
ZZ
Thats what I remember, yes.
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
15
Okay. Twice. How,
ZZ
Im not, I just dont want to say just in case that its wrong.
MS DEAKIN:
What Im asking you to do is think clearly as you can what
you can remember, okay, dont make stuff up, dont say oh you can check, I
might, cause we can check but what I want to know is what you can remember
about the money that (
20
MR
ZZ
put in.
The fact is I dont really how much time shes put in so I
dont want to give you a number.
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
Well was it once or twice or more than that?
ZZ
Ill say twice, I think it was twice.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
You think it was twice?
ZZ
Yeah, I dont want to say a number just in case its wrong.
30
MS DEAKIN:
Well do you think thats right, was it less,
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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
Less than twice or more than twice?
5
MR
ZZ
Id say twice.
MS DEAKIN:
10
MR
When was that, how long ago?
ZZ
A month, two (2) months ago in, I think, I told you Im not
the best,
MS DEAKIN:
Right. Well two (2) months ago, okay, its not that long
ago,
15
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
You can remember that and how much each time?
ZZ
Say, I dont know, average maybe a thousand (1,000) Id
say that.
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
Altogether?
ZZ
No, maybe each time.
MS DEAKIN:
One thousand (1,000) and then another one thousand
(1,000)?
30
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
Why did you she put two thousand dollars ($2,000)
around about that much into your account?
MR
5
ZZ
Yeah, I dont know, she just, my brother sometimes wants
his money to be with me sometimes he wants it to be with her.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
So its your brothers money, is it?
ZZ
Yeah, thats my brothers money.
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Alright. And where does he get money from?
ZZ
Hes got savings before he went to jail he had a bit of
money,
15
MS DEAKIN:
MR
20
So,
ZZ
Well he had it cash, so.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
So your brothers got some cash,
ZZ
Sometimes I tell my brother to tell (
to send me
money if I,
25
MS DEAKIN:
But is (
looking after
money while hes in
jail?
MR
30
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
Alright.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MR
ZZ
Sometimes I do, thats the thing, sometimes I do,
sometimes,
MS DEAKIN:
5
No, well lets just go through this thing carefully. Your
brother has some cash stored somewhere and (
MR
ZZ
has access to that,
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
And did you ask
to give you money?
10
MR
ZZ
Not last, sometimes hell say to (
just put money in
my brothers account,
MS DEAKIN:
Yeah, I,
15
MR
ZZ
Cause he might need it (wds).
MS DEAKIN:
Alright. Listen Im talking about the two (2) times, you
think it might have been about two (2) times that (

20
has put money into your
account. Okay. Tell me about those times,
MR
ZZ
I dont know.
MS DEAKIN:
What happened, why is there, why is she doing that?
25
MR
ZZ
My brother will tell her to transfer money to my brothers
account,
MS DEAKIN:
Would, did, is that what he told her?
30
MR
ZZ
He might not even not tell me why he will just transfer it in.
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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
No, but Im asking you what you know, is that what
happened?
MR
ZZ
(Wds) dont touch his money.
MS DEAKIN:
So that lets just a take a step back here. Dont tell me
what he would have done or you think might happen, what do you know, what
happened, why did (
put money into your account?
10
MR
ZZ
Because my brother told her to.
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
Okay. Did you speak to your brother about that?
ZZ
No, he just told me dont touch the money that goes into
your account.
MS DEAKIN:
How do you know which is money that you can touch and
which isnt?
20
MR
ZZ
Cause I didnt know when it comes in, he tells me theres
a thousand bucks (1,000),
MS DEAKIN:
Well so did you,
25
MR
ZZ
Theres a thousand bucks (1,000) come off from (
dont touch it.
MS DEAKIN:
Okay.
30
MR
ZZ
So,
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
Thats what happened, is it, you had that conversation
with your brother?
MR
ZZ
No, this is Im giving you like an example if,
MS DEAKIN:
MR
No, I want to know what actually happened.
ZZ
No, I cant remember, it was awhile ago, so.
10
MS DEAKIN:
No, what actually happened with the money that (
put into the account, did you have a conversation with your brother,
MR
ZZ
Oh he would have told me about that.
15
MS DEAKIN:
MR
But did he, dont tell me what he would have done.
ZZ
Cause I cant remember, I dont want to make a clear
statement.
20
MS DEAKIN:
Why do you say he would have done, he would have said
that?
MR
ZZ
Cause thats what hes does, what he needs to do.
25
MS DEAKIN:
MR
30
How often does he do that?
ZZ
Not much, maybe three (3), four (4).
MS DEAKIN:
Well how has he done that since youve got back from
overseas the last time?

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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
Oh I dont know. I dont know, but I told you twice (wds).
MS DEAKIN:
How long has he been in jail?
5
MR
ZZ
Three (3) years.
MS DEAKIN:
Okay. So in the last four (4), five (5) months however
long is it since you got back, how often has he done that, how often has he got
10
money put in your account?
MR
ZZ
Well I thought, maybe two (2) times I think about that.
MS DEAKIN:
15
About two (2) times, alright. How much money altogether
are we talking about here?
MR
ZZ
I dont know maybe two (2), three thousand (3,000), I
dont know, I cant.
20
MS DEAKIN:
Well it was five hundred (500) and then it was a thousand
(1,000) then it was two (2) and then it was three (3),
MR
25
ZZ
Cause I told you, I got bad, I told you I cant,
MS DEAKIN:
MR
You just dont know.
ZZ
I cant really give it to you properly.
MS DEAKIN:
And is that and shes put in cash in there, has she?
30
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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
I dont know, shes transferring, I dont really check my
statements I just see the money in my account.
MS DEAKIN:
5
Alright.
better not touch that cause
MR
ZZ
My brother (wds) Im not allowed to touch it, dont touch it.
MS DEAKIN:
10
So you see money coming in and you think I
Okay. Where else has money come from that go into
your account?
MR
ZZ
No, my brother, my Mum and me, thats it.
MS DEAKIN:
Thats it? And this David, the person with the tyres?
15
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
Thats it?
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
No-one else?
ZZ
Yeah.
25
MS DEAKIN:
MR
30
Youre absolutely clear about that?
ZZ
Hundred percent (100%).
MS DEAKIN:
Alright. Well, where and are those your only sources of
money altogether?
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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
Yeah, thats it.
MS DEAKIN:
Anyone else give you cash?
5
MR
ZZ
No, like, just, in my head, my brother, his Miss, my
brother and his Missus and my Mum like she does what she has to do something
in my account, you know.
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Okay. Anyone else give you cash?
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
Not at all?
15
MR
ZZ
No, not at all.
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
Do you have any other source of income?
ZZ
No, no other sources.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Do you do any work,
ZZ
No.
25
MS DEAKIN:
Legal or illegal, remember you have to answer the
question and it cant be used again you,
MR
ZZ
No, I dont do nothing.
30
MS DEAKIN:
Are you getting money from anywhere else?
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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
5
So your brother, again, Im just thinking about the times
since you got back, right, your recollection is that your brother has told (
to
put money into your account and told you not to touch it, so its still there now,
right?
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
15
Yeah.
ZZ
I think I got about two grand (2,000) there.
MS DEAKIN:
Okay. So theres two grand (2,000) in your account, how
much is in your account altogether now?
MR
20
ZZ
Two grand (2,000).
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Thats all your brothers money, is it?
ZZ
Yeah most of it. Ive got I think six hundred (600) for me.
MS DEAKIN:
Youve got six hundred (600) from where?
25
MR
ZZ
For me in there,
MS DEAKIN:
30
MR
Yeah.
ZZ
Like for me and my Mum and the rest, the two grand
(2,000) is for my brother.

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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
So there should be about two thousand six hundred
(2,600) in there,
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
And two thousand (2,000) is your brothers?
ZZ
Yeah.
10
MS DEAKIN:
Now is that the only money your brother has ever put in
there or has asked (
MR
ZZ
to put in?
I think so, yeah, I told you what I,
15
MS DEAKIN:
Well hang on, you told me that before hes been in jail for
three (3) years and this has been a regular pattern, right?
MR
20
ZZ
Oh no, this bank account has only been around for six (6)
months, I think, so,
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Okay. So, if,
ZZ
Six (6) or seven (7) Im not sure like the time.
25
MS DEAKIN:
Alright.
Before you had this bank account, did your
brother send,
MR
ZZ
No.
30
MS DEAKIN:
Money your way?
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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
So thats only happened in the last six (6) months?
5
MR
ZZ
Yeah, I told you the other accounts I had they were dead.
MS DEAKIN:
Alright. Is it true that your brother has only ever given you
money or put money in your account in the last six (6) months,
10
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
Never done it before that?
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Why did he start doing that six (6) months ago?
ZZ
Why not?
20
MS DEAKIN:
Well whats different, why didnt he do it two (2) years ago,
why does he do it now?
MR
ZZ
I dont know, hes, its up to him.
25
MS DEAKIN:
MR
What have you spoken to him about?
ZZ
My brother, I dont know, (wds) hes like my, like hes
older than me, hes got control of everything, you know, so, I dont like sometimes
30
if he just does things and I dont really answer.
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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
Well whats changed, why would he put money in your
account now and tell you not to touch it?
MR
5
ZZ
Well why not, maybe I wanted a weekend away, like I
dont know.
MS DEAKIN:
But youre just, no, youre telling me its his money and
youre not allowed to touch it.
10
MR
ZZ
Yeah, thats an instance, maybe it is to, but money from
him.
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
Dont tell me maybe.
ZZ
Maybe he had a fight with (
MS DEAKIN:
MR
No Mr,
ZZ
He doesnt want her to have that money.
20
MS DEAKIN:
MR
25
Mr
ZZ
listen to me, dont make up stories,
Im not making up stories.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
Dont tell me maybe,
ZZ
I just told you I got a bad,
MS DEAKIN:
Dont tell me what you think might have happened,
30
MR
ZZ
I got a bad recollection of everything.
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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
No, listen to me, dont interrupt me, tell me, think clearly
and tell me what you remember,
MR
ZZ
I told you,
MS DEAKIN:
MR
10
If you dont remember,
ZZ
I told you what I remember. Can I tell you that I dont
remember cause I thought I,
MS DEAKIN:
MR
If you dont remember,
ZZ
Youre making me make,
15
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Just say that you dont remember.
ZZ
Youre making me make mistakes cause I dont
remember, so Im trying to,

20
MS DEAKIN:
You need to listen to my questions. Okay. You need to
listen to my questions. So, when did your brother first give you money?
MR
25
ZZ
I cant remember, I told you, I cant, thats why youre
making me make mistakes.
MS DEAKIN:
You had this bank account for six (6) months, before that
has your brother done, has your brother put money into your account,
30
MR
ZZ
No.
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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
In a different account?
ZZ
No, he hasnt, no.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
He hasnt?
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
So only just the last six (6) months he started doing this?
10
MR
ZZ
Yeah, a couple of times, yeah,
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
Yeah.
ZZ
So nothing regular.
MS DEAKIN:
So a couple of times he asked (
to put money in
and you reckon thats about two thousand dollars ($2,000) or so and that money is
still there?
20
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
Okay.
So, has ever given you money that you are
allowed to spend?
25
MR
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
30
MR
Never?
ZZ
No. Hes got no, he doesnt have much, hes got to tell
them to (wds).
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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
Okay. So, just to be absolutely clear here, hes not, he
has never given you money that you can then spend yourself?
MR
ZZ
No.
Usually its for my Mum, him and my Mum do
everything they got there (wds).
MS DEAKIN:
Right. And hes given you, theres two thousand dollars
($2,000) thats gone into your account that youre not allowed to spend,
10
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
Yeah and theres no other money?
ZZ
Theres six hundred dollars ($600) in the account.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
20
Where does the six hundred (600) come from?
ZZ
Its just, I dont know, just stay, its gets together for my
Mum, for me. Sometimes I dont spend my money sometimes, I put it together,
wait, I sell stuff, like I sell my Play Station, my games and that.
MS DEAKIN:
Why does
want you to look after two thousand
dollars ($2,000) for him?

25
MR
ZZ
I dont know.
MS DEAKIN:
30
MR
Did he tell you?
ZZ
I think he had a fight with his Missus, so he wanted it out
of her grasp, yeah.

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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
So he got her, he had a fight with her and he got her to
put money into your account?
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
And whats going to happen to it?
ZZ
I dont know.
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
15
Well has he said?
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
How long has he has to keep it?
ZZ
No, he hasnt said nothing.
MS DEAKIN:
Why didnt he just get her to give you the cash?
20
MR
ZZ
I dont know, cause I dont see, Ive never seen (
in person only in visits cause she visits her stepdad whos in jail and they sort of
met like that. Like they knew each other on the outside but her stepdad and just
my brother and she visits him and they saw each, no they just, my brother is
25
secretive, hes very secretive.
MS DEAKIN:
(Wds).
Now, you said that there is now about two
thousand six hundred dollars (2,600) in the account,
30
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
Yeah, how long has it been at that balance?
ZZ
(Wds) I told you (wds).
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Okay. When did the money go in?
ZZ
I cant, maybe last week.
MS DEAKIN:
10
Okay. And as of the end of last year, at the end of last
year, how much money was in there?
MR
ZZ
I dont know, I told you it goes up and down, sometimes I
have money, sometimes I (wds).
15
MS DEAKIN:
Well look, the Examiner has already told you that weve
been doing a whole lot of investigations,
MR
20
ZZ
I know.
MS DEAKIN:
We have all sorts of information but I know that there was
sixty five cents (65c) in your account at the end of the year, on the twenty fourth
(24th) of December there was sixty five cents (65c) in there, thats a nothing,
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
25
MS DEAKIN:
Nothing at all. So if theres two thousand six hundred
(2,600) in there now, it must have gone in this year, yeah.
MR
ZZ
Whats the money,
30
MS DEAKIN:
Is that right?
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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
Whats the, yeah, whats the,
MS DEAKIN:
5
But there was nothing in your account at the end of last
year, so it wasnt
money that you cause
obviously didnt give
you any money last year because you wouldnt have spent it.
MR
10
ZZ
I never said last year.
MS DEAKIN:
Okay. So the two thousand dollars ($2,000) or so that
you got from (
MR
15
ZZ
I never seen (wds),
MS DEAKIN:
And your mother, that money must have been this year,
right?
MR
ZZ
Yeah, I told you I dont know, you told me the timeframe, I
told you I cant remember so youre making me fall into traps, I cant remember.
20
25
30
MS DEAKIN:
Lets go through the bank account statements.
MR SAGE:
Ive got the bank accounts.
MS DEAKIN:
You have that,
MR SAGE:
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
Thank you Sir. Now lets go through this carefully and see
what we can work out. So, first (1st) page, lets just put this on the record, this is a
copy of statements for account number BSB
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
60

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, account number
ZZ
in the name of the
of
. Thats you?
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
Yeah, thats your account?
Okay.
And you said you
opened an account maybe six (6) months ago, this is one thats opened on the
nineteenth (19th) of July, so this is the account weve been talking about?
10
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. So the first (1st) thing that happens apart
MS DEAKIN:
from a couple of very small deposits. On the nineteenth (19th) of August theres
15
three hundred dollars ($300) deposit, do you see the credit column there? Yeah,
so that credit column, three hundred dollars ($300) cash deposit, the next day a
hundred dollars ($100) cash deposit, two hundred dollars ($200) cash deposit.
Okay. Do you remember where that money comes from?
20
MR
ZZ
I did here and there but,
MS DEAKIN:
Yeah.
So you talked about you get money from your
Mum and you put it in the bank account,
25
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Yes, so thats that money?
ZZ
Yeah.
30
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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
Right. Okay. Keep moving. Turn to the next page, now
on the twenty second (22nd) of August you see how it shows Eftpos and it says
you bought something at McDonalds in Bankstown,
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
And then you paid for Ibis, the accommodation in Coffs
Harbour and then youre back in Yagoona. Why did you go to Coffs Harbour for
one (1) day?
10
MR
ZZ
I dont know.
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
Did you to go Coffs Harbour for one day,
ZZ
Im trying to think.
On the twenty second (22nd) of August?
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
I went to Ibis, Casula.
20
MS DEAKIN:
Oh okay. Oh well, maybe thats maybe so thats maybe
they put it through a different accounts, it went to Ibis in Casula?
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
25
MS DEAKIN:
MR
30
Yeah. Why did you go there, do you remember?
ZZ
Just me and my girlfriend.
MS DEAKIN:
Oh okay. Alright. That may explain that. Alright. The
next thing that happens is on the twenty sixth (26th) of August theres four hundred
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ZZ
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dollars ($400) cash deposit and then the very same day you take, theres two
hundred and seventy dollars ($270) in cash comes out of the ATM. Why did you
put four hundred dollars ($400) cash in and then you take two hundred and
seventy (270) out on the same day?
5
MR
ZZ
Cause I tried to save and it doesnt work so I just spend
money.
MS DEAKIN:
10
So your Mums given you four hundred dollars ($400) and
said put that in the account, dont spend it,
MR
ZZ
And then I (wds).
MS DEAKIN:
And then two (2) hours later youre spending it? Right.
15
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
Okay.
And same thing happens on the twenty eighth
(28th) of August, you put two hundred (200) in and then you take fifty (50) straight
20
out from the ATM. Yeah, thats the pattern thats familiar, thats your money, your
Mums money going in and then you taking it out in cash. Okay. Same happens
on the fourth (4th) of September, six hundred dollars ($600) goes in and then two
hundred and fifty (250) goes in, hundred (100) goes, whats, can you see the fifth
(5th) of September,
25
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
Theres a hundred dollars ($100) credit and then theres
(Ragah) next to it, can you see that loan?

30
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
Well whose (Ragah), who or what is (Ragah)?
ZZ
I dont know, I dont know, honestly dont know.
5
MS DEAKIN:
You dont know why theres a hundred dollars ($100)
credit for (Ragah)?
MR
ZZ
No. I cant remember.
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
15
(Wds).
ZZ
Why, what is it?
MS DEAKIN:
Im asking you. Okay. Well keep going. Turning to the
next page, on page, this is page three (3), yeah, theres tran, theres the date, the
ninth (9th), tenth (10th), eleventh (11th), thirteenth (13th) and sixteenth (16th) of
September, theres three hundred dollars ($300) goes into the account on the
sixteenth (16th) of September and the reference is (Batalla). Do you know what
20
that is?
MR
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
25
You were overseas at that time, do you know why three
hundred dollars ($300) went into your account?
MR
ZZ
How would I know?
Im very (wds), Im very bad.
(Batalla).
30
MS DEAKIN:
That doesnt mean anything to you?
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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
Im trying to think but, its been a while, so I dont know.
MS DEAKIN:
If you turn to the next page, the very next day the
seventeenth (17th) of September, hundred dollars ($100) credit (Batalla), hundred

5
dollars ($100) goes into your account, (Batalla). What does that mean? Do you
know where money comes from? Cause you said that the that only money that
goes into you account is your Mum and this guy with tyres and a couple of times
from
10
MR
ZZ
Yeah, that could be from my brother too. (Wds).
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Well is it or isnt it?
ZZ
It could be from people in prison thats family paying.
15
MS DEAKIN:
MR
20
Why would they be paying you?
ZZ
I dont know, my brother does his own thing.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Well is that your money there or not?
ZZ
Like what Im saying to you is my brother does his own
things sometimes and sometimes like they could be people from prison family
paying.
25
MS DEAKIN:
But how would you know if thats money youre allowed to
spend or not?
MR
30
ZZ
I dont know, thats a different, thats why I cant even
recall it.
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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
Why would people in prison, their family put money into
your account?
MR
ZZ
From my brother, to pay my brother.
5
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Why would they be paying your brother?
ZZ
Maybe he sold them buy-ups, maybe he sold them this
and that, I dont know they get by in there anyway.

10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
15
So how many people have your bank account number?
ZZ
I wouldnt know.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Does your brother tell them your bank account,
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
Number to put money in?
20
MR
ZZ
To put, yeah, to put in
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
Well why didnt you mention this before?
ZZ
I told you that, (
MS DEAKIN:
MR
30
Well is this (
ZZ
puts money in (wds).
or this is somebody else in the family?
This is (wds) I cant give you a clear answer cause then
Id be lying, its a while back, I cant really, I dont know.
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ZZ
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Twentieth (20th) of September, four thousand five hundred
MS DEAKIN:
dollars ($4,500) goes into your bank account, whats that?
MR
ZZ
That would be from my Mum.
5
MS DEAKIN:
MR
10
Four thousand five hundred (4,500)?
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Thats a lot more than any other deposit.
ZZ
I dont know, she would have put it in.
MS DEAKIN:
15
Why, when you say that would be from your Mum, what
do you mean it would be,
MR
ZZ
Oh yes.
MS DEAKIN:
Is it or isnt it?
20
MR
ZZ
Its from my Mum, no-one else is going to put money like
that except for my Mum.
MS DEAKIN:
25
Do you know do you that is definitely four thousand five
hundred (4,500) from your Mum?
MR
ZZ
Im not going to say definitely but Im going to say most
likely.
30
MS DEAKIN:
Well thats a large amount of money, its larger than all of
the other amounts thats been well under a thousand (1,000),

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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
I told you my brother and Mum,
MS DEAKIN:
This is quite different then any other.
5
MR
ZZ
My brother and my Mum have their own agreement, they
do their own thing.
MS DEAKIN:
Well whats that got to do with your bank account,
10
MR
ZZ
Cause,
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
Your brother and your Mums agreement?
ZZ
Cause I, my brother doesnt have a bank account, so this
is our, its mine but we use it together.
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
Well is it yours or is it your brothers?
ZZ
Its mine, in my name.
MS DEAKIN:
Look four thousand five hundred (4,500) goes in there on
the twentieth (20th) of September,
25
MR
ZZ
(Wds) I know that,

And the twenty third (23rd) of September you go on a
MS DEAKIN:
shopping spree, youre spending money, youre just spending all of that money, is
it your money or is it your brothers?
30
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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
I dont know, Im telling you its probably its my Mum, him
and my Mum theyre are in agreement.
MS DEAKIN:
Youre the one spending the money.
5
MR
ZZ
(Wds) even if it was my money, whats the problem like I
would have told you from the start.
MS DEAKIN:
10
Dont tell me what you think what the answer might be or
wonder what the problem is,
MR
ZZ
I would have told you,
MS DEAKIN:
Im trying to understand,
15
MR
ZZ
I would have you told from the start, I wish, I would have
told you from the start its my money.
MS DEAKIN:
20
Four thousand five hundred (4,500) is that your money or
is it your brothers?
MR
ZZ
Its my Mums money.
MS DEAKIN:
Its your mothers?
25
MR
ZZ
All my money, whatever, we all have the same money. If I
want, if my brother tells me not to spend something, I dont spend it, if its not, if he
doesnt tell me dont spend, Ill spend (wds).
30
MS DEAKIN:
When the, how often do you see your brother?
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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
Every week.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
And do you talk about money every week?
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
Well when, how often has he told you theres money in
your account dont spend it?
10
MR
ZZ
This is why, this is a problem this is why, I thought, in my
head this isnt a new bill, in my head, like, these are things normal like thats why
its not a big thing for me.
MS DEAKIN:
15
But there wasnt anything like that amount of money
coming in before that, why does it suddenly go from,
MR
ZZ
Cause lifes like,
MS DEAKIN:
One hundred (100) to four thousand five hundred (4,500)?
20
MR
ZZ
Cause my lifes like that, I dont know, lifes like that.
MS DEAKIN:
Where does the four thousand five hundred (4,500) come
from?
25
MR
ZZ
I told you from my mother.
MS DEAKIN:
30
MR
But how, where did she get that much money in cash?
ZZ
She earns, she gets a good, a very good job.
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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
What, where does she work?
ZZ
Shes Interpreter.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Where does she work?
ZZ
You says it was cash, I dont know, she would have got it
from (wds).
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
This year cash deposit,
ZZ
Yeah but Im,
MS DEAKIN:
Four thousand five hundred (4,500).
15
MR
ZZ
She put it in cash, but how she got it its her business.
MS DEAKIN:
Well do you know that thats your mothers money, you
dont, you dont know at all, do you?

20
MR
ZZ
Im assuming its my mothers.
MS DEAKIN:
But you dont actually know where that money comes
from?
25
MR
ZZ
I cant, Im not going to say, make a clear statement, no.
MS DEAKIN:
30
MR
Who made that deposit?
ZZ
I dont know, probably my Mum or,
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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
Do you remember,
ZZ
I,
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Going into the bank,
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
10
With four thousand five hundred dollars ($4,500) in your
hand,
MR
ZZ
No, I dont,
MS DEAKIN:
Have you ever made that bigger deposit yourself?
15
MR
ZZ
Ive made a couple of deposits but not in,
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
Four thousand five hundred dollars ($4,500),
ZZ
No, not for that exact,
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Makes a much bigger bundle then three hundred (300).
ZZ
Yes but,
25
MS DEAKIN:
Have you ever been into the bank and deposited that
much money?
MR
ZZ
I told you I put thousands (1,000s) in the bank.
30
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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
How much is the most that youve ever put in the bank in
cash?
MR
5
ZZ
I dont know, I cant remember, a thousand (1,000) plus,
sometimes different, sometimes,
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Have you ever gone in,
ZZ
Sometimes,
10
Did you go to the bank on the twentieth (20th) of
MS DEAKIN:
September and put in four thousand five hundred (4,500)?
MR
ZZ
I cant remember.
15
Right. On the twenty fourth (24th) of September if you
MS DEAKIN:
look at the top of page, top of the next page, its statement number two (2), page
two (2) theres an ATM withdrawal of six hundred and fifty dollars ($650),
20
MR
ZZ
Where?
MS DEAKIN:
Why did you take six hundred and fifty dollars ($650) out
at one go?
25
MR
ZZ
It could have been for anything, I dont know what (wds).
MS DEAKIN:
MR
30
Well again its more than you usually bank.
ZZ
I go out on the weekend, me and the boys we do a lot of
things, we go to, we go gamble, do a lot of things, I gamble a lot, I used to gamble

but not anymore. I used to pull sometimes all the money I get in the week (wds) in
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
73

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PROTECTED
one hit, so a lot of my money goes and sometimes I get a big win, sometimes I
dont. Thats why I cant give you a clear answer cause I cant tell you the specific
incidences.
MS DEAKIN:
Excuse me.
So we keep going through this account,
youre not going to be able to help me, youre not going to be able to tell me
where,
MR
ZZ
No I cant.
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
15
Any money came from or,
ZZ
Im trying (wds).
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Where it went, are you?
ZZ
Im trying (wds),
MS DEAKIN:
20
Can you remember any particular incidences from any of
these where the money came from?
MR
ZZ
I told you,
MS DEAKIN:
Who made the deposit, whose money it is?
25
MR
ZZ
I won at the pokies a few times but I cant tell you what
dates. I dont know.
MS DEAKIN:
30
If that account could be tendered, the statements, copy of
ZZ
bank statement in the name of Mr
account
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
74

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, account number
) that copy.
MR SAGE:
NAB Classic Account statements for the account
) in the witnesss name will be

Exhibit three (3).
MS DEAKIN:
Id like to show you a photograph. This is a photograph
you see its written at the top the time and date, nineteen oh four twenty seven
10
seconds (19:04:27), so four minutes past seven (7:04) in the evening on the
twenty ninth of September two thousand and thirteen (29/09/2013). Do you know
any of the people in that photograph?
MR
ZZ
No, its not clear, I dont know.
15
MS DEAKIN:
MR
20
Well who do you think it is?
ZZ
Thats (wds) most of them.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Well whos the guy in the white?
ZZ
I dont know.
MS DEAKIN:
Come on Mr
ZZ
25
MR
ZZ
He doesnt look, no, he doesnt look familiar to me.
MS DEAKIN:
30
MR
Who do you think it is?
ZZ
Its not clear and he doesnt look too familiar, so.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
You were there, who is it?
ZZ
Where is this?
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Who is the person in the white? Dont muck about,
ZZ
I dont know.
MS DEAKIN:
You know who it is?
10
MR
ZZ
Im not going to say, I dont,
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
ZZ
Cause I dont who he is.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
I dont know.
20
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Who do you know that looks like that?
ZZ
Plenty of people from my community look like that, thats
what Im trying to say to you, plenty of people.

25
This is at Sydney Airport, twenty ninth (29th) of
MS DEAKIN:
September, you were there with that man, who is it?
MR
30
ZZ
I wasnt there with anyone, I was going to say bye to
everyone going to Hajj,
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
Yeah,
ZZ
Obligation.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Who were you saying goodbye to?
ZZ
To the whole people in (wds).
MS DEAKIN:
10
Yeah, who was it? Who were you there saying goodbye
to,
MR
ZZ
It was no-one,
MS DEAKIN:
In particular?
15
MR
ZZ
Theres no specific.
MS DEAKIN:
Okay. Tell me all the people you were saying goodbye
to?
20
MR
ZZ
Generally we were all (wds).
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
No, no, I dont,
ZZ
(Wds) brothers and sisters.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
30
Listen Mr
ZZ
ZZ
Theyre all brothers and sisters in my religion, I was going
to say bye (wds).
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
Who was there, tell me all the names?
ZZ
I dont know the specific, its called (wd) we get (wd) for
going to say bye to people going to Hajj, the (wds).

5
MS DEAKIN:
Specifically, Mr
ZZ
this is going to take a lot longer if
we keep going on like this.
MR
10
ZZ
Going on like what? I dont understand, Im giving you my
answer, youre not happy with it, I cant,
MS DEAKIN:
MR
15
Tell me who,
ZZ
I cant do, Im giving you the truthful answer and youre
not happy with it.
MS DEAKIN:
Mr
ZZ
stop it, tell me who you went to the airport to
say goodbye to in particular?
20
MR
ZZ
The Muslim community.
MS DEAKIN:
No, you rang a particular person, you specifically
organised to meet them, you said here I am, Im on the M5, Im nearly there, oh
where are you, Ill meet you outside, who are we talking about here Mr
ZZ
25
MR
ZZ
I dont recall that conversation.
MS DEAKIN:
Well, Examiner, Id ask you to direct the witness and
remind him of his obligations at this point.

30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MR SAGE:
Mr
ZZ
you have a photo in front of you, youre in the
photo,
MR
ZZ
Im,
10
MS DEAKIN:
But to be fair hes not in that particular photo,
MR SAGE:
Sorry.
MS DEAKIN:
But Ill certainly show the next one which is where it
makes it very clear.
MR SAGE:
15
20
MR
Okay. Youre not in the photo, youre not in the photo?
ZZ
No, I dont,
MS DEAKIN:
I dont suggest hes in the photo.
MR SAGE:
Were you at the airport on the twenty ninth of September
two thousand and thirteen (29/09/2013)?
MR
ZZ
Yes. I (wds) I know I when the people going to Hajj.
MR SAGE:
To go to Hajj.
25
MR
ZZ
To the family pilgrimage.
MR SAGE:
30
MR
And they were people you knew werent they?
ZZ
Not in particular anyone no.
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ZZ
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MR SAGE:
MR
They were people you knew werent they?
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
MR
You didnt know anyone?
ZZ
I dont,
MR SAGE:
10
You just turn up at the airport to say goodbye to people
you didnt know?
MR
ZZ
Its our customs, its our customs, like some, its,
MR SAGE:
Pardon?
15
MR
ZZ
Its the day I prescribe the day to go out of my way to say
goodbye to the brothers and sisters going to Hajj.
MR SAGE:
Well who told you that they were leaving?
20
MR
ZZ
No-ones told me, everyone knows this is Hajj season. Its
my parents are going to my cousins wedding, I wanted to do something good,

something good spirited so instead I went to the Hajj.
25
MR SAGE:
MR
Well were your parents there in the photo?
ZZ
No, my parents were going to my cousins, not in the
photo, they were at my cousins wedding.
30
MR SAGE:
At your cousins wedding that day?
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
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MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
MR
Do you remember that?
ZZ
No, I remember the day I went to the airport that was my
cousins wedding, the day I went to the airport to say goodbye to the Hajj people.
MR SAGE:
Thats what Im saying to you, you remember that your
parents were at a wedding that day?

10
MR
ZZ
Yeah. Cause I remember this is why I went to the airport.
MR SAGE:
15
MR
Look Ive told you earlier you need to tell me the truth,
ZZ
Im telling you the truth, Im telling you the truth.
MR SAGE:
MR
Just listen to me, can you listen?
ZZ
20
MR SAGE:
MR
25
Can you listen?
ZZ
MR SAGE:
MR
Yes or no?
ZZ
Yes Sir.
MR SAGE:
Are you listening to me now?
30
MR
ZZ
Yes.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MR SAGE:
I told you earlier that you need to tell the truth if you dont
you can face a charge or charges of giving false evidence and it carries a jail
sentence up to five (5) years. Now, it seems to me that you do know from based
5
on what I already know about this investigation the people that are in the photo
thats in front of you and the question is, who is the man in the white,
MR
10
ZZ
I dont know.
MR SAGE:
MR
The white robe?
ZZ
I dont know, I was saying bye to (wd).
MR SAGE:
Pardon?
15
MR
ZZ
I was saying bye to (wd) just talking with people thats it,
God bless youse.
MR SAGE:
20
Who did you speak to on the way to the airport on the
phone?
MR
ZZ
I dont recall that day, I,
MR SAGE:
You dont recall that?
25
MR
ZZ
Not the specifics no, I dont recall.
MR SAGE:
Well the only call specifics you remember talking to
someone do you?
30
MR
ZZ
No, I dont recall, no,
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
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MR SAGE:
MR
5
You dont?
ZZ
Im telling you, I dont, I cant give you an answer cause I
dont know, got to make a clear statement.
MR SAGE:
Im not asking you to give me answer, Im asking you to
tell me the truth.
10
MR
ZZ
I told you truth, I dont recall, I, in my head, I cant recall,
the phone call, I cant recall specifics, I cant recall.
MR SAGE:
Hold the photo up to me thats in front of you and you say
you dont know the name or the identity of any person in that photo?
15
MR
ZZ
No, I dont recall anyone in the photo.
MR SAGE:
20
MR
You dont recall?
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
MR
It was in September last year.
ZZ
I got a bad memory, I told youse.
25
MR SAGE:
MR
30
Youve got a bad memory?
ZZ
MR SAGE:
Whats wrong with your memory?
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
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MR
ZZ
I just, I dont know, I just been, I just, a few things that get
to me, so.
MR SAGE:
5
What is wrong with your memory and what has caused
you to have a memory problem?
MR
ZZ
I dont know, just a few things, I dont know if its the exact
(wd), cause I just seen, I dont know but like sometimes, I dont know, I cant, I
dont know, just, sometimes I take Zanax to sleep and that and its not prescribed,
10
thats why I didnt want to say it like I dont know, I just, I cant recall the,
MR SAGE:
You say its not prescribed, you mean that you havent
sought any treatment?
15
MR
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
Youve never been to see a doctor or psychiatrist or
physiologist,
20
MR
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
MR
All of three (3)?
ZZ
No.
25
MR SAGE:
MR
30
No. So youre not on any medication?
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
None at all?
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
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ZZ
This is like, not prescribed medication, I can, I just, I get it.
MR SAGE:
But you sit there and tell me you can remember that on
MR
the twenty ninth of September two thousand and thirteen (29/09/2013),

5
MR
ZZ
I cant,
MR SAGE:
10
MR
Your Mum and Dad had gone to a wedding.
ZZ
I cant remember on the twenty ninth (29th) of September
that they went to a wedding, I can remember the day I went to the airport, there
where we cause its not every day you go to the airport.
MR SAGE:
15
No, thats why, if you were to ask me the people I went to
see off at Sydney Airport, I could probably tell you all their names.
MR
ZZ
Well I didnt go to see off any particulars, I went to see off
everyone.
20
MR SAGE:
Why did you go there for if you didnt go to see the people
off?
MR
ZZ
Cause its our custom, to say bye, but these days our
customs are ignored, so its our customs to say.

25
MR SAGE:
Well there would have been a lot of Muslims going to Hajj
at that time,
MR
30
ZZ
Its more of a spiritual (wds), its more if you go there you
make a prayer.
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ZZ
(03/02/2014)
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MR SAGE:
Listen to what Im saying to you, there would have been a
lot of your community going but not on the same day, how many times did you go
out to the airport?
MR
ZZ
Once.
MR SAGE:
MR
Just once?
ZZ
Yeah. Due to the fact that the wedding was on that day.
10
MR SAGE:
ZZ
No-one in particular.
MR SAGE:
No-one in particular?
MR
15
Okay. Well who did you go to see off?
MR
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
And you cant remember any names?
20
MR
ZZ
I cant remember any names.
MR SAGE:
25
MR
Is that your truthful answer?
ZZ
Yeah, thats my truthful answer, I cant remember.
MR SAGE:
MR
So you cant remember?
ZZ
Yeah.
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MR SAGE:
And you have no medication in relation to your memory
and youve sought no advice?
MR
ZZ
No.
5
MR SAGE:
MR
When did your loss of memory start?
ZZ
Its not loss of memory, Ive got memory (wds) memory but
its just Ive, Im bad with putting things together.

10
MR SAGE:
Youve got a normal memory but its just got worse in the
last half hour?
MR
15
ZZ
No, the memory like I know to myself, like I cant tell you I
got a bad memory but I know personally I forget things.
MR SAGE:
See, we know that you know some of those people in the
photo, so for you to sit there and tell me you dont know people,
20
MR
ZZ
Im not, I just said I dont recall.
MR SAGE:
And you cant remember you are lying to me.
ZZ
Im saying I dont recall, no, Im not because,
MR
25
MR SAGE:
MR
Oh so its now you dont recall?
ZZ
I dont remember knowing anyone, I dont remember, Im
telling you, I dont remember, youre trying to put words in my mouth, I dont
30
remember.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
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MR SAGE:
Im not trying to put words in your mouth, Im trying to ask
I am asking you who you know in that photo because I believe that you know
people personally that are in that photo.
MR
ZZ
Its not coming to my head, that I know anyone in that
photo, so Im not going to say I do.
MR SAGE:
10
MR
You dont know anyone in the photo?
ZZ
Its not coming to my head that I do.
MR SAGE:
MR
So now its not coming into your head,
ZZ
(Wds).
15
MR SAGE:
MR
20
But you do know,
ZZ
(Wds).
MR SAGE:
MR
That means, listen to me,
ZZ
(Wds) not remembering.
MR SAGE:
25
Listen to me, listen, thats means that you do know people
in the photo,
MR
ZZ
No it doesnt.
MR SAGE:
But its not coming,
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MR
ZZ
(Wds) Im telling you, I dont know anyone in the photo.
Youre telling me I went this and that Im telling you I dont remember that day in
the specifics of it.
MR SAGE:
MR
What,
ZZ
So thats all I can do for you.
MR SAGE:
10
Let me have another attempt to get an answer from you.
Is it that you know people in the photo but you cant remember who they are?
MR
ZZ
No, then I would remember them, I dont know anyone in
this (wd).
15
MR SAGE:
Listen. Is it that you know people in the photo but you
cant remember who they are?
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
No.
MR
20
MR
ZZ
What did you say?
MR SAGE:
25
Is your answer in relation to the question that I have
asked you who are the people in the photo thats in front of you is your answer
that you know people in the photo but you cant remember who they are?
MR
30
ZZ
No, I dont know.
MR SAGE:
Well what is your answer?
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
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MR
ZZ
No, I dont remember. I dont remember anyone or know
anyone in this photo.
MR SAGE:
You dont know anyone in that photo?
5
MR
ZZ
Yes. Youre telling me if Ive seen these people,
MR SAGE:
10
MR
No.
ZZ
Im telling Ive never remembered seeing them in my life.
MR SAGE:
Let me be clear.
Your answer is you dont know any
person in the photo that is in front of you?
15
MR
ZZ
Yes.
MR SAGE:
MR
20
Is that your honest answer?
ZZ
I cant recall, yes. I cant recall meeting these people in
my life or seen them.
MR SAGE:
MR
In your life?
ZZ
Yeah.
25
MR SAGE:
MR
30
You cant recall meeting those people in your life?
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
Thats possible you have met them?
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
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MR
ZZ
God knows.
MR SAGE:
MR
Pardon?
ZZ
God knows, I dont know.
MR SAGE:
MR
10
No, you know?
ZZ
No, I dont know. Im telling you I dont remember seeing
them, I cant.
MR SAGE:
MR
Youre in the witness box, not Allah or God, its not what,
ZZ
I dont remember,
15
MR SAGE:
Its not what higher authority where members or knows its
what you know Im asking you.
MR
20
ZZ
But Im telling you, let me rephrase that, I dont remember,
dont worry about the bad memory, I dont remember.
MR SAGE:
So your answer now is you dont remember any, the other
people in the photo?
25
MR
ZZ
No, remembering means that Ive met him Im saying I
dont remember meeting these people or seeing these people thats it.
MR SAGE:
30
MR
Do you know anyone in the photo?
ZZ
No.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
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MR SAGE:
MR
Personally?
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
Never met any person in the photo?
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
No.
ZZ
No.
MR
10
MR
MR SAGE:
Ms Deakin, weve been going a while, well take a
morning tea break, probably fifteen (15) minutes. But you need to think over the
15
break about the evidence youre giving because youre getting into a situation
where you are going to face the consequences of giving untruthful evidence in
your, in answer to the questions. Do you understand?
MR
ZZ
No, I,
20
MR SAGE:
And Ive told you it carries a sentence of up to five (5)
years, thats what youre facing. Understand?
MR
ZZ
Understood.
25
30
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MR RAWE:
All stand. This Examination will take an adjournment.
MR RAWE:
All stand. This Examination is now in session.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
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MR SAGE:
Take a seat, thank you. Ms Deakin.
MS DEAKIN:
Thank you Sir. Now Mr
ZZ
during the break have you
had any better recollection, can you tell me whos in those photos?
5
MR
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
10
15
MR
So your evidence is, you dont know who is in that photo?
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
Tender that photo please.
MR SAGE:
Thank you. The copy of the colour photo with the date the
twenty ninth of September two thousand and thirteen (29/09/2013) and the time
nineteen oh four twenty seven (19:04:27) depicting a number persons will be not
identified will be Exhibit four (4). Thank you.
MS DEAKIN:
20
Ill show you another photo. This photo has the reference
QUE2/C235, thats QUE2/C235, the time is eighteen fifty seven and thirty two
seconds (18:57:32) on the twenty ninth of September two thousand and thirteen
(29/09/2013). Do you recognise any of the people in that photograph?
MR
ZZ
No.
25
MS DEAKIN:
MR
30
You need to speak up, what is your evidence?
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
You recognise no-one in that photograph?
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
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MR
ZZ
No I dont recognise anyone.
MS DEAKIN:
I tender that photograph.
MR SAGE:
A copy of the coloured photo marked QUE2/C235, a
number of male persons not, a number of persons not identified will be Exhibit five
(5).
MS DEAKIN:
10
Show you another photo and there is a copy for the
Examiner. Photograph of a face of a bearded man, who is that?
MR
ZZ
I dont know I just,
MS DEAKIN:
Speak up what is your evidence?
15
MR
ZZ
Trying to think if I remember anything but.
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
Do you know that person?
ZZ
I cant, I dont know, I dont,
MS DEAKIN:
MR
You dont know?
ZZ
I dont recall meeting anyone with this face.
25
MS DEAKIN:
MR
30
Have you ever met that person?
ZZ
I dont recall meeting anyone with this face.
MR SAGE:
Have you ever met the person?
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MR
ZZ
I dont recall if I have or not, or I dont know who this is.
MR SAGE:
MR
Do you know the name of the person,
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
MR
In the pho, you dont know the name?
ZZ
No.
10
MR SAGE:
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
No.
MR
15
Have you ever met the person in the photo?
MR
ZZ
I dont know.
MR SAGE:
What is your answer, have you ever met?
20
MR
ZZ
I dont know, I dont recall.
MR SAGE:
25
MR
You dont know, you dont recall.
ZZ
Yeah thats my answer.
MR SAGE:
MR
You also said no.
ZZ
No I dont recall, I dont know.
30
MR SAGE:
No you dont recall, I dont know.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
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MR
ZZ
I dont know, thats my answer.
MR SAGE:
You dont know the person in the photo?
5
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
10
MR
Yes.
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Thats your, thats the witnesss answer.
ZZ
I dont recall knowing this person.
15
MR SAGE:
MR
20
Thats a different, thats different to what you just said.
ZZ
I know its all the same.
MR SAGE:
Do you know the person in the photo that is now in front of
you?
MR
25
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
No. Thank you. His answer is he does not know the
person in the photo.
MR
ZZ
I dont remember if I have met this person or not, I dont
know, like I cant give you a clear answer.

30
MS DEAKIN:
Mr
ZZ
you need to give a clear answer.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
96

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PROTECTED
ZZ
MR SAGE:
Mr
MS DEAKIN:
Look at that photo very carefully,
5
MR
ZZ
Im answering the question truthfully.
MS DEAKIN:
10
MR
Dont speak over the top of me.
ZZ
Im answering,
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Look dont speak,
ZZ
Why are getting frustrated for?
15
MS DEAKIN:
MR
20
Over the top of me Mr
ZZ
ZZ
Why are you getting frustrated for?
MS DEAKIN:
I am speaking to you, wait until Ive finished. Look at the
photo in front of you and tell me on the best of your recollection if you have ever
seen that person before? Have you ever seen that person before or have you
not?
25
MR
ZZ
To the best of my recollection I have not see this person,
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Thank you.
ZZ
On the best of recollection.
30
MS DEAKIN:
Have you ever spoken to this person?
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
97

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PROTECTED
MR
ZZ
To the best of my recollection no.
MS DEAKIN:
Have you ever met with this person?
5
MR
10
ZZ
To the best of my recollection no.
MS DEAKIN:
Thank you, Ill tender that photograph.
MR SAGE:
The photo of the male person that was shown to the
witness, colour photo will be Exhibit six (6).
Witness has not identified that
person.
MS DEAKIN:
15
Now the person in Exhibit six (6) that you just saw is the
same person as the man in white at the airport, you were there. What do you say
to that?
MR
20
ZZ
Say to what?
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Have you ever, youve never this person?
ZZ
To the best of my recollection no I havent met this
person.
25
MS DEAKIN:
Id like to play you a telephone conversation.
MR SAGE:
Sorry, just so that the record is clear, its, your question
related to the person in Exhibit four (4).
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
98

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PROTECTED
MS DEAKIN:
And Exhibit five (5), in each of those there is a man in
white, perhaps the documents could be shown, perhaps the three (3) photos could
be shown to the witness again,
10
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MS DEAKIN:
Together.
MR SAGE:
Just so the record is clear, Exhibit four (4), five (5) and six
(6). Exhibits four (4), five (5) and six (6).
MS DEAKIN:
Now Mr
ZZ
look very carefully at Exhibits four (4), five
(5) and six (6). The man in Exhibit six (6) is the same person as the man with the
white hat in Exhibit five (5) and the man with the white hat in Exhibit four (4). The
15
man on the far left in Exhibit five (5) with the bag strapped over his shoulder, look
at the photo, look at Exhibit five (5) look at the person on the left with the strap
over his shoulder, that man is you.
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
20
MS DEAKIN:
MR
25
It is you?
ZZ
Yeah I didnt even notice myself.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Is that you in that photo?
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
30
So when you said you didnt recognise anyone in that
photo that was a lie?
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
99

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PROTECTED
MR
ZZ
No it wasnt a lie, I didnt see myself.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Look at,
ZZ
Im not wearing, Im wearing the same shirt,
MS DEAKIN:
Look very, now listen to me Mr
ZZ
do not speak over
the top of me,
10
MR
ZZ
If I,
MS DEAKIN:
Mr
ZZ
do not speak over the top of me, this is very,
very serious, if you lie to this Commission, you will be charged and you will go to
jail. You need to think very carefully about your answers. Look at the people in
15
Exhibit five (5) and tell me who they are?
MR
ZZ
Me on the far left.
MS DEAKIN:
And who else?
20
MR
ZZ
I dont know no one there.
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
Who else were you there with?
ZZ
I wasnt (wds).
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Whose bag were you carrying?
ZZ
I dont know.
30
MS DEAKIN:
Think before you answer Mr
ZZ
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
100

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PROTECTED
MR
ZZ
Its called charity, I was probably holding,
MS DEAKIN:
Who, no, dont tell me probably,
5
MR
ZZ
I was holding (wds).
MS DEAKIN:
10
MR
Whose bag were you carrying?
ZZ
I dont see myself, but I dont know, I was probably
holding a random persons bag.
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
Were, thats a lie Mr
ZZ
Our religion we do that stuff, we just hold,
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
What you lie?
ZZ
No we help random people.
20
MS DEAKIN:
MR
25
Is that your evidence?
ZZ
Yeah we help random people, I dont know.
MS DEAKIN:
Is that your evidence that you were carrying a random
persons bag, a person you have never met before, a person you did not arrange
to meet at the airport?
MR
ZZ
Yeah I dont recall, I dont recall.
30
MS DEAKIN:
Did you arrange to meet someone at the airport?
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
101

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PROTECTED
MR
ZZ
I dont recall.
MS DEAKIN:
5
MR
ZZ
Thats my answer, I dont recall.
MS DEAKIN:
10
MR
ZZ
I dont recall.
MS DEAKIN:
Did you arrange to meet this man, the man in Exhibit four
(4), five (5) and six (6) at the airport.
15
MR
ZZ
I dont recall.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Did you or did you not?
ZZ
I dont recall.
20
MS DEAKIN:
MR
25
Are you making a genuine effort to recall?
ZZ
I am, Im trying my best.
MS DEAKIN:
Now Id like to play you a tape, if you could listen carefully,
and tell me who, whose voices you hear on this tape. For the record this is, just a
moment stop that, for the record, this is a call, it says with the record number five
six two (562), its a call at one twenty seven (1:27) pm on the twenty ninth of
September two thousand and thirteen (29/09/2013), from call number zero four
30
one five seven five eight seven two one (0415758721) to zero four one five seven
seven one one zero one (0415771101). Thank you.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
102

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(14/16344)
PROTECTED
MR SAGE:
Thank you. It can be played.
CALL PLAYED (TRANSCRIBED)

5
10
M1:
Hello (wds).
M2:
(Wds) what happened?
M1:
(wds) Im need to see to my in-laws at the moment bro.
Can
you come to the airport today?
END OF CALL (TRANSCRIBED)
15
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Whose voices are on that?
ZZ
I dont know.
MS DEAKIN:
You dont know? Thank you keep playing
20
CALL PLAYED
25
M2
To the airport?
M1
Yeah. I have to go and say goodbye to my parents and

my in-laws.
30
M2
Well what, what time are you leaving?
M1
Im leaving very soon bro.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
103

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PROTECTED
M2:
Oh youre leaving very soon?
M1:
Yeah, I have to, we havent said goodbye to them.
M2:
Oh and then what time where you go after that?
M1:
Ive got to, Ive got to get two hours to the airport earlier
so Ill be there six oclock (6:00) inshallah.

10
M2:
Six oclock (6:00) (wds) so can I see you before that while
youre in the area, or?
M1:
Okay. Well Im not sure if Im going to come back bro
15
because Im going to be leaving probably about four thirty

(4:30).
20
M2:
Wheres your parents house?
M1:
Airport, airport, Sydney Airport.
M2:
Yeah but where you parents, what area do they live in?
M1:
Lakemba.
M2:
Lakemba.
M1:
Yeah, but Im going to my in-laws first in Campbelltown,
25
they live in Eaglevale, I think, where they live? Blair Athol.

30
M2:
So what time do you want to see me?
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
104

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PROTECTED
M1:
I want to see you.... honestly, honestly Ive been calling

you for the past few days....I want to, can you come to the
airport?
M2:
I can man, yeah I can.
M1:
(wds) this gives us an opportunity for Hajj (wds) last

minute, last minute.
10
M2:
(Wds) I will see you 100% today, Inshallah.
M1:
(wds) if not now before the airport I will see you at the
airport and sit you down and talk (wds) if we get a chance.
15
M2:
(Wds) Inshallah (wds) 100% I will be seeing you (wds).

Whats happening, you got everything ready and that?
20
M1:
Just put everything on the side for me please (wds)
M2:
(Wds) everything is in the bin, whatever (wds) doesnt

matter (wds). I give you my word, Inshallah.
25
M1:
(Wds) I will see you there in a bit (wds).
M2:
(Wds) if I can I will even come see you before that (wds). I
will try my best.
M1:
Call me, call me, dont make a move because Im not sure
if Im going to be in the area around here (wds).
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
105

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PROTECTED
M2:
(Wds)
Ill
come
wherever,
come
wherever.
Eaglevale is around the corner from my house man,

doesnt matter.
5
END OF CALL (TRANSCRIBED)
MS DEAKIN:
10
MR
Whose voices are on that call?
ZZ
I dont recall the phone call.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Whose voices are on that call?
ZZ
I dont recall the phone call.
15
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Mr
ZZ
ZZ
do not lie to this Commission.
Im not lying Im trying to my best of my ability to recall
and I cant, I just cant.

20
MS DEAKIN:
People on that call are you and the person in Exhibit four
(4), five (5) and six (6).
MR
ZZ
Well I obviously cant recall so.
25
MR SAGE:
Do you, do you know any voice on that call that was
played to you?
MR
ZZ
I dont recall that phone call.
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
106

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(14/16344)
PROTECTED
MR SAGE:
Look if youre saying dont recall and you do know, that is
a tactic,
MR
ZZ
Its not.
5
MR SAGE:
MR
10
That you have developed to avoid answering questions.
ZZ
Its not, I just dont recall, I dont.
MR SAGE:
MR
You dont recall?
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
Dont recognise it, one (1) or both of the voices?
15
MR
ZZ
I dont recall that phone at all.
MR SAGE:
Well Im not asking you that, Im asking you do you
recognise any of the voices on the phone.

20
MR
25
ZZ
No, I dont.
MR SAGE:
No.
ZZ
No.
MR
MR SAGE:
Do you know whats been discussed in that call?
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
No.
MR
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
107

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PROTECTED
MR
ZZ
No. I dont recall that anything.
MR SAGE:
Are you one of the speakers on that call?
5
MR
10
ZZ
Im not sure.
MR SAGE:
Youre not sure?
ZZ
No, Im not sure.
MR
MR SAGE:
MR
15
Why are you not sure?
ZZ
I dont know I never know that call thats why I dont know.
Youse could have put my voice there, youse could have done anything I dont
know what youse can do.
MR SAGE:
20
MR
So it could be your voice?
ZZ
No youse could have put it yourselves, youse (wds).
MR SAGE:
MR
Alright, if you dont know,
ZZ
(Wds).
25
MR SAGE:
If you dont know the voice why are saying it, we could
have (wds)?
MR
30
ZZ
Im not saying (wds) Im saying youse could make
anything up and do whatever I dont know what youse do.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
108

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PROTECTED
MR SAGE:
MR
Well Im assuring you that we didnt make anything up.
ZZ
I dont know that.
MR SAGE:
MR
Im telling you.
ZZ
I dont know man, I dont know I try my best but I cant.
MR SAGE:
Youre trying your best,
10
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
Youre sure youre not saying I dont recall, cant
remember to avoid answering the questions?

15
MR
ZZ
I got nothing official, but I told you I got bad, I got
problems bro, I got problems so, thats why I havent got nothing official on paper
but I dont know, I just,
20
MR SAGE:
MR
Youre just, youre saying that you have a bad memory?
ZZ
Yeah I know I just got, yeah, theres other things too (wd) I
just, I dont know all together affected me in that, I,
25
MR SAGE:
MR
Well whats affected you?
ZZ
No I just, I dont know I cant, I dont know.
MR SAGE:
30
Youve been able to go about your life up until now
without any problems havent you?
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
109

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(14/16344)
PROTECTED
MR
ZZ
No Ive been problems for a while now.
MR SAGE:
MR
Had it for a while?
ZZ
Yes Sir.
MR SAGE:
When did you last go overseas?
ZZ
Last year.
MR SAGE:
Last year?
MR
10
MR
15
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
Do you have any difficulty remembering the dates you
were going and,
MR
20
ZZ
The date?
MR SAGE:
MR
Where you were going?
ZZ
I went to Thailand.
MR SAGE:
25
Do you have any difficulty remembering where you were
travelling to and what plane you were going on?
MR
ZZ
I wouldnt know the plane no not really.
MR SAGE:
The airline?
30
MR
ZZ
No (wds).
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
110

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(14/16344)
PROTECTED
MR SAGE:
At the time you knew, you knew where to go didnt you to
the airport, which airline to go to.
MR
ZZ
Yeah but recently Ive had a bit of problems, I dont want
to (wds).
MR SAGE:
10
MR
So recently its been a problem.
ZZ
Ive had a bit of problems, yes.
MR SAGE:
MR
Since your trip to Thailand.
ZZ
A lot recently yeah, Ive had a bit of problems.
15
MR SAGE:
Now, so you are in no doubt, if you are not telling the
truth, as Ms Deakin said to you, you can be charged with the offence of giving
false or misleading evidence if you are using,
20
MR
ZZ
But I havent given any evidence, I just dont remember.
MR SAGE:
Okay, will you listen and let me finish. If you are using a
tactic such as saying every time youre asked a question I dont remember or I
dont, I dont have any memory or Ive got a bad memory and not answering
25
questions then there are, there is another offence under the Australian Crime
Commission Act of hindering the Examiner in the conduct of the Examination or
obstructing.
MR
ZZ
Mate I dont, if I cant remember, how you say (wds).
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
111

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(14/16344)
PROTECTED
MR SAGE:
And there is also a case or maybe other cases where
people in a tribunal or a Commission have continued to say I cant remember

when they do know the answer to questions, that that is equivalent of giving false
evidence.
5
MR
ZZ
But thats a different story you know I cant, like I cant you
give any answers cause I dont remember.
MR SAGE:
Okay. Im just telling you as, in a,
10
MR
ZZ
Thats someone trying to hide something, this is a
different instance.
MR SAGE:
15
Again, Im telling you, you know in a simple way which to
you, the consequences you face if you are going to give false answers, if you are
going to mislead, if you are going to use a tactic such as I cant remember or I
have no memory of that, or I dont know, I may have done, when you do know the
answer, then you are going to have the problem and itll be facing charges in a
court, not here, in a court and if you are convicted there is a strong possibility that
20
youll receive a jail sentence.
MR
ZZ
(Wds).
MR SAGE:
Do you understand what Im saying to you?
25
MR
ZZ
Yeah but thats a different,
MR SAGE:
30
MR
No. Do you understand,
ZZ
Yes.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
112

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(14/16344)
PROTECTED
MR SAGE:
MR
What Im saying to you?
ZZ
Yes.
MR SAGE:
MR
You do understand?
ZZ
Yes.
MR SAGE:
Ms Deakin.
MS DEAKIN:
Okay.
10
Now youve said you understand what the
Examiner is saying, if someone has told you that all youve got to do is keeping
saying I dont recall, I dont recall and they cant get you for false evidence, that
advice is wrong.
15
MR
ZZ
Yeah but (wds).
MS DEAKIN:
People have been prosecuted and convicted in similar
circumstances and gone to jail. Now in my view the answers that you have given
20
are false and misleading and you may be obstructing or hindering the
Examination, now you are putting yourself in serious jeopardy of being charged
with an offence or being held in contempt of the Examination.
MR
ZZ
What can I do about that, what can I do?
25
MR SAGE:
Ms Deakin do you want to take the Examination any
further at this stage?
MR
30
ZZ
I dont think there is any benefit in taking the Examination
any further except in one regard, I would like, I would ask you to make it clear to
the witness that the questions that have been put are material to the special
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
113

PROTECTED
(14/16344)
PROTECTED
intelligence operation pursuant to which this Examination was taking place and
that the answers if proven false would be false in material particular.
MR SAGE:
5
Do you understand that the questions that have been put
to you today, in particular the questions about your bank account or bank
accounts and the questions in relation to the photos that have been shown to you,
particularly on the twenty ninth of September two thousand and thirteen
(29/09/2013) and the telephone, intercepted telephone calls we played to you on
the twenty (20), a recording of a call on the twenty ninth (29th) of September the
10
same date as the airport photos, two thousand and thirteen (2013) was the year,
last year, those questions are important to the special operation that the
Commission is conducting, they are material to that investigation.
MR
ZZ
Whats that mean?
15
MR SAGE:
It means they are very important.
Do you understand
what important means?
MR
ZZ
20
MR SAGE:
They are questions that are very relevant to the special
operation that the Commission is conducting so therefore its important that you
tell the truth, do you understand that?
25
MR
ZZ
Mm.
MR SAGE:
MR
You need to answer?
ZZ
Yes.
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
114

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(14/16344)
PROTECTED
MS DEAKIN:
That being the case I would ask that there be a short
adjournment, I will take the opportunity to speak to the witness outside the
Examination Room and clarify his, some of his legal rights and obligations.
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MS DEAKIN:
And when we return if the witness, that he indicates an
intention to continue in this vein, I will be making an application for him to be held
in contempt and I am aware that he should be given the opportunity to seek legal
10
advice and perhaps an appropriate adjournment for that purpose.
MR SAGE:
Okay. Well I will give Ms Deakin an opportunity to speak
to you outside, if I consider it necessary for you to get legal advice I will be giving
you that opportunity.
15
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
Well, well take a break, Ms Deakin will speak to you when
we come back I will decide whether I need to adjourn your Examination or not to
20
give you an opportunity to speak to a lawyer,
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
25
To get advice because the situation that youre in is very
very serious. You understand?
MR
ZZ
Yes.
MR SAGE:
Very serious.
30
MR
ZZ
Yes.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
115

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(14/16344)
PROTECTED
MR SAGE:
To commit an offence here in your evidence or more than
one (1) offence those offences if you are con, charged and convicted in a court,
carry jail sentences, its a serious matter okay.
5
So its something I mention
consideration to you, Ms Deakin will talk to you if you dont cooperate when you
come back and tell the truth, then Ill consider putting a matter over so that you
can get legal advice. Thank you.
MR RAWE:
MR RAWE:
MR SAGE:
Take a seat, thank you.
10
ZZ
Ms Deakin I understand Mr
has had an opportunity to speak to a lawyer.
15
MS DEAKIN:
Yes Sir, very briefly.
MR SAGE:
And your lawyer has given you some advice and I dont
want to hear the advice, but you did speak to a lawyer?

20
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
Is there anything that you wish to change in your
evidence?
25
MR
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
No. Mr
ZZ
because of the situation you are now in
and it being so serious, that position that you are now in as far as I am concerned
30
is this, I am of the opinion that during this Examination today that you are a person
who is in contempt of the Australian Crime Commission. Now, I can refer you to
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
116

PROTECTED
(14/16344)
PROTECTED
the Federal Court or to a State or Territory Supreme Court to be dealt with for
contempt, but Im not going to do that today, because as I said it is such a serious
matter and you dont have a lawyer with you here today. I am going to give you
an opportunity to get legal advice and particularly to instruct the lawyer that you
5
speak to, that the Examiner is of the opinion that you are in contempt of the
Australian Crime Commission and I cant direct you do get a lawyer, but Im telling
you that, I consider it is very important that you do get legal advice and preferably
to have a lawyer with you when you come back on the next occasion.
You
understand what Ive said to you?

10
MR
ZZ
Yes.
MR SAGE:
What Im going to do is adjourn your Examination until
Tuesday, next Tuesday, tomorrow week the eleventh (11th) of February at ten
15
(10:00 am and in the meantime during this adjournment you are not to speak to
anyone other than a lawyer about the evidence that youve given, the questions
youve been asked, the fact that you came to the Australian Crime Commission or
that youre coming back on the next occasion. If you need to speak to anyone
about money to pay a lawyer I permit you to speak to whoever you need to speak
20
to about money, but not to tell them anything about the Examination.
MR
ZZ
So I cant say the Australian Crimes Commission?
MR SAGE:
No.
25
MR
ZZ
Can I tell them just Im in court?
MR SAGE:
That you need, you can tell them that you need to get a
lawyer to give you advice and that it is important that you get that advice and that
30
you need money but you cant tell them what its about okay.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
117

PROTECTED
(14/16344)
PROTECTED
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
MR
You understand?
ZZ
Yes.
MR SAGE:
Now, when you have a lawyer, who you are going to
engage, I want you to tell, to contact Ms Deakin and tell her the name of the
lawyer, you understand?
10
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
Your mobile phone, do you have it back, no its there,
thank you.
15
MR
ZZ
Thank you.
MR SAGE:
20
MR
Is that your phone?
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
Thats okay.
The material has been downloaded from
your phone, the data, the information, the download will be Exhibit seven (7).
25
MR
ZZ
Did it cha does it change anything on my phone or?
MR SAGE:
MR
Pardon?
ZZ
Does it change anything on my phone?
30
MR SAGE:
It wont change anything on your phone.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
118

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PROTECTED
MR
ZZ
Oh cause my screen is different so.
MR SAGE:
Pardon?
5
MR
ZZ
Cause my screen is different, the picture so I thought.
MR SAGE:
10
MR
I dont know about the screen but your phone,
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
Content should still be the same. Ms Deakin is there any
further?
15
MS DEAKIN:
Nothing thank you Sir.
MR SAGE:
I know adjourn your further Examination until ten (10:00)
am on Tuesday the eleventh of February two thousand and fourteen (11/02/2014)

and,
20
MR
ZZ
Will you be here or different judge?
MR SAGE:
Ill be here.
You will need to be here at ten o clock
(10:00), well proceed then and something I was going to mention to you.
25
MS DEAKIN:
The secrecy obligations you have been through I think.
The secrecy obligations that youve been through ought there need to be an
interim non-publication direction made?
30
MR SAGE:
Oh the consequences.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
119

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(14/16344)
PROTECTED
MS DEAKIN:
Yes.
MR SAGE:
In relation to not speaking to anyone for the duration of
this adjournment, you, if you do speak to anyone and tell them about this
5
Examination and what youve been questioned and your answers, apart from the
lawyer that you may or may not engage then if you breach or you break my
direction, dont (wd) the direction, dont speak to anyone, then that is also a
serious offence under the Australian Crime Commission Act and you can be
prosecuted for that. It also carries a fine and a jail sentence.
10
MR
ZZ
Pardon?
MR SAGE:
It also has, carries a fine and a jail sentence, if you
breach.
15
MR
ZZ
If I tell someone?
MR SAGE:
20
MR
If you tell someone other than your lawyer.
ZZ
Ill go to jail?
MR SAGE:
MR
Other than a lawyer.
ZZ
Alright.
25
MR SAGE:
MR
30
Okay. Understand.
ZZ
Not even my Mum and Dad about the lawyer?
MR SAGE:
You cant tell your Mum and Dad, you can tell them if you
want to borrow money from them that you need to engage a lawyer,
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
120

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MR
ZZ
Yeah thats what I meant.
MR SAGE:
But you cant tell them what its about.
5
MR
ZZ
Yeah thats what I meant
MR SAGE:
10
MR
Okay. Understand?
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
Okay well see you next Tuesday. And you have to be
here,
15
MR
ZZ
Yeah I will.
MR SAGE:
MR
Thats what I was going to tell you.
ZZ
No Ill be here.
20
MR SAGE:
You have to be here at ten oclock (10:00), if you are not
then I will make an application for a warrant to issue to have you arrested and
brought in, okay
25
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MR RAWE:
All stand. This Examination is now adjourned.
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
121

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_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(03/02/2014)
122

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TRANSCRIPT
OF PROCEEDINGS
_____________________________________________________________
PROTECTED
_____________________________________________________________
ZZ
Advection Examinations
SYDNEY
Wednesday 12 February 2014
QUALITY
CHECKED
ZZ
BY
BRAD
RAWE
(12/02/2014)

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20/02/2014
(14/20245)
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MR RAWE:
All
stand.
Examination
of
the
Australian
Crime
MR SAGE:
Take a seat, thank you. Ms Howard.
MS HOWARD:
Thank you Examiner. Examiner this is a resumption of an
Examination pursuant to Summons number S zero zero one six of twenty fourteen
ZZ
(S0016/2014) of Mr
that Mr
ZZ
Examiner you might recall
was last before you Examiner on the third (3rd) of February?
10
15
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MS HOWARD:
Mr
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MS HOWARD:
He also is I understand represented by Mr Phil Butterfield
ZZ
is present today.
of Counsel. I understand Mr Butterfield will make a submission at the appropriate

time for leave to appear Examiner.
20
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MS HOWARD:
Examiner I understand from Mr Butterfield it will be his
intention that hell be making an application for the Examination to go over, to be

25
adjourned indeed for his client to attend an appointment with a psychiatrist, for an
ZZ
assessment to be prepared in relation to Mr
mental state. Examiner at
the appro all I ask for at this stage Examiner is that any, that a report be prepared
by any such psychiatrist as to the diagnosis of Mr
ZZ
mental state, and I
also ask that that written report be made available to you Examiner and to
30
members of staff of the Australian Crime Commission to be considered. Examiner

at the appropriate time I also raise the issue of Mr, you Examiner presently have
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(12/02/2014)

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Mr
ZZ
passports, he has a current
passport and a current
Australian passport, and I, you also have a cancelled Australian passport.

Examiner I understand that it will be by consent and I understand that from Mr
Butterfield that Mr
5
ZZ
will consent to you Examiner retaining those passports
until any adjourned date of this Examination and that is by consent or Mr

will consent to your, you retaining those passports.
ZZ
Ill leave it, in that case
Examiner for Mr Butterfield to make various submissions to you in relation to Mr
ZZ
10
attendance.
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MS HOWARD:
Various medical practitioners, and Examiner Ive also
provided you with a copy of a certificate from a GP, a Doctor Saner Elhafi, and for
the record thats Doctor S A N E R, surname L A, E L H A F I and a report which
15
companies that attendance.
MR SAGE:
I have a copy of that report. Ill make it an Exhibit there
are some other Exhibits I need to give numbers to before I get to the medical
report, but,
20
MS HOWARD:
So on that basis Ill leave that, Ill leave that then in that
order Examiner.
MR SAGE:
Okay
MS HOWARD:
(Wd). Thank you.
MR SAGE:
Mr Butterfield youre seeking leave to appear,
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes.
25
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(12/02/2014)

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MR SAGE:
For Mr,
MR BUTTERFIELD:
For Mr
ZZ
ZZ
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes of Counsel Your Honour.
Might that leave be
granted?
10
MR SAGE:
Yes you have my leave.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thank you. Can I initially indicate that at this stage there
is an application Examiner for the Examination be adjourned,
15
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
On the basis that Im now in possession of a number of
documents which I understand have been tendered before you and will be
exhibited in particular a document from Dr Elhafi who saw Mr
20
25
ZZ
on the ninth
(9th) of February indicating in a diagnosis on the referral to a Doctor Bajgar thats,
MR SAGE:
You may need to spell that onto the record.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
B A J G A R with whom my client Mr
ZZ
has an
appointment at four thirty (4:30) this afternoon to see. Your Hon, Examiner, the
concern I have is that it has now been brought to my attention from Dr Elhafi that
there is an initial diagnosis of a major depression and an anxiety disorder with
PTSD. Now I understand from having now spoken with Mr
ZZ
on a few
occasions and Ive seen some deterioration in his particular mental state, for the
30
record Examiner, Mr
ZZ
was apprehended at the airport on the sixth (6th) of
February at eleven twenty (11:20) am and eventually taken before the Federal
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(12/02/2014)

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Court that particular day after a warrant was issued in the afternoon which caused
him great concern.
Nevertheless hes here, hes answered the Summons, I
indicated as soon as it came to my attention this morning that the documentation

is present, Mr
5
ZZ
having seen me late in conference late yesterday also, that
it is my concern that, Mr
ZZ
mental state may be at risk if further
Examination takes place and Id ask for the opportunity to have Doctor Bajgar at
least be able to see him into, this afternoons consultation, but importantly
potentially another second (2nd) consultation with a view of obtaining some short
report to assist you the Examiner in regards to the continuation of the
10
Examination. Ive spoken with my friend this morning and Ive indicated on having
instructions to consent to Mr
ZZ
passport remaining in the possession of the
Examiner until the Summons has stood over, if such an adjournment is

considered appropriate in the circumstances.
15
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
The subsidiary issue Examiner, if it gets to that point that
the proceedings that you are prepared to adjourn the Examination is that Mr
ZZ
20
will ask for an order under twenty five (25), sorry an order that you as the
Examiner permit him to be able to disclose certain information to his psychiatric

professional. In particular the lifting of any confidentiality disclosures by reason of
an order under 25A(9) if it deemed appropriate. I note for the purposes that the
Summons which is Exhibit one (1) in the proceedings, Annexes, a number of
Annexures including Annexure B in particular which prohibits him at this stage
25
disclosing particular information. Hes expressed to me that he has concerns that

he would not be able to disclose that information to any psychiatrist and he asked
for the Examiners consideration as to whether an order could be so made that
any information be disclosed to a psychiatric professional only in the
circumstances. I have heard what my friend said about the production of any
30
reports and upon my request I will seek pay report from the psychiatrist. I should
say for the record that Ive not had any dealings with Doctor Bajgar, however I
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(12/02/2014)

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anticipate if she is able to see Mr
ZZ
on the mental health care plan, which is
subsidised, that she maybe able to prepare any such report.
So in those
circumstances I ask for the Examiner to consider adjourning the Examination at

this stage, taking into account those matters that Ive raised and can I ask that the
5
documents be exhibited accordingly. Examiner you should have the certificate

from Doctor Elhafi that my friend referred to in addition to that a two (2) page
document being a mental health assessment, in addition to that being a document
entitled K one zero (K10), the assessment of Doctor Saner Elhafi with a result of
forty four (44) out of fifty (50) and then three (3) pages being printouts of a patient
10
plan and patient assessment.
Can I ask that they be exhibited in the
proceedings?
MR SAGE:
Okay. Look, just before I make that an Exhibit, as I said I
have some other material that needs to be exhibited,

15
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Indeed.
MR SAGE:
And Ill do that and then Ill come back to your application.
Is there anything further Mr Butterfield at the moment?

20
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thats all, thank you Examiner.
MR SAGE:
Firstly the downloaded material from the witnesss phone,
mobile phone which happened on the last occasion the third (3rd) of February but
25
was not available before I left the bench, will be Exhibit seven (7). The recording
of the Examination on the third of February two thousand and fourteen
(03/02/2014) will be Exhibit eight (8). I also have in the Examination Room the
passport with the Federal Court judge handed or have handed to the
Australian Crime Commission. Can I see the passport thanks? Thats passport
30
number
in the name of
ZZ
Mr Butterfield you need to see,
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(12/02/2014)

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MR BUTTERFIELD:
Might I have access to that?
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
There was one (1) matter I failed to raise Your Honour
with some importance and that might be the reference to the documents that you
have before you with the name, M A S T E, Maste (wd)
10
ZZ
MR SAGE:
I was going come to come to that.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes,
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
And if necessary I can have Mr
15
ZZ
substantiate the
reference to that being reference to himself and a prior known.
MR SAGE:
Okay.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thank you Ive seen that, thank you Examiner.
MR SAGE:
Mr Butterfield that is the passport that you, the witness
20
through you has consented to being retained by the Australian Crime

25
Commission,
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes.
MR SAGE:
For the duration of this Examination?
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes.
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(12/02/2014)

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MR SAGE:
The
passport
will be Exhibit ten (10).
There is also before me the witnesss
Australian passport number ends

5
ZZ
in the name of
and also a cancelled passport
number end
ZZ
in the name of
I will make both the current and the cancelled Australian Passports
Exhibit eleven (11) and they can be shown to Mr Butterfield.
10
MS HOWARD:
Examiner while thats taking place Ive just received
instructions about a
15
identification card.
MR SAGE:
I have that.
MS HOWARD:
If that
MR SAGE:
Thats going to be the next Exhibit I have it in my hand.
MS HOWARD:
Oh separate thank you, sorry Examiner.
MR SAGE:
Mr Butterfield, they are the passports that were handed to
identity card, could that also be made,
20
the Australian Crime Commission by the Federal Court,
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes Im instructed they are.
MR SAGE:
And they are the passports that the witness through you
25
consents to being retained as an Exhibit in this Examination?
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes.
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(12/02/2014)

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MR SAGE:
The two (2) passports that I have mentioned will be
Exhibit eleven (11). I also have the Vietnam Airlines boarding pass in the name of
ZZ
sixth (6th) of February, it doesnt have the year on it but I
understand it it was this year, Sydney to Ho Chi Minh City. A letter dated the
5
eighteenth of September two thousand and thirteen (18/09/2013) by the Roads

and Maritime Services Transport, New South Wales addressed to
ZZ
concerning a suspension of his licence from the second (2nd) of, drivers
licence from the second of October two thousand and thirteen (02/10/2013). I
understand these documents were obtained at the airport last week from the
10
witness. A document that I understand is in written in Vietnamese and maybe a
ZZ
copy of
record of his visa, to travel into Vietnam but I cant
translate that. And also an identity card, number

appears to be a photo on it of the witness
and I intend to make those documents Exhibit twelve (12) but they can be shown
15
20
to Mr Butterfield, thank you.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thank you Examiner there is no objection.
MR SAGE:
Thank you. So the various documents that Ive identified
that I understand obtained from the witness at the airport on the sixth February
two thousand and fourteen (06/02/2014) will be Exhibit twelve (12). And now that
brings me to the doctors covering letter and the reports and the witness through
Mr Butterfield has informed me that the reference to Maste
ZZ
the witness now before me, Mr

25
ZZ is in fact
The
ZZ
copy of the All Care Medical Centre letter, signed by Doctor Samer, S A M E R,
Elhafi, E L H A F I, together with a mental assessment, mental health assessment
a K ten (K10) form and a patient plan and a patient assessment will be Exhibit
thirteen (13). Mr Butterfield the position Id reached on the last occ, you dont
need to stand.
30
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thank you Examiner.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(12/02/2014)

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(14/20245)
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MR SAGE:
On the last occasion, the third (3rd) of February was to
inform the witness Mr
ZZ
that I had formed an opinion based on the evidence
he had given on that day in his Examination that he was in contempt of the
5
Australian Crime Commission and because of the seriousness of the position Mr
ZZ
then found himself in by me forming that opinion necessitated as I saw it,
him obtaining or being given the opportunity to obtain legal advice before the
matter of his contempt was referred to either the Supreme Court of New South
Wales or the Federal Court. Subsequently he was arrested on a warrant on the
10
sixth (6th) of February shortly after he had attempted to board or had boarded a
flight to Ho Chi Minh City. And around that time, as I understand it, he was in
contact with you Mr Butterfield for advice and as subsequently obtained legal
advice and he is here today represented by you. So I am reluctant to grant a
further adjournment in the matter but because of the circumstances of him
15
seeking medical advice very recently and the fact that the GP has recommended
or advised him to seek a psychiatric consultation or consultation with a psych
psychiatrist and Mr Butterfield tells me that that appointment has been preliminary
or the first (1st) appointment has been made for four thirty (4:30) pm today with a
Doctor Bhagari or Doctor Bhagar, B H A G A R, who I now understand is a
20
psychiatrist. I do not resolve from my finding on the last occasion or my opinion

more precisely formed on the last occasion that the evidence of the witness is
such that he is in contempt of the Australian Crime Commission. So any report
from a psychiatrist needs to address the current situation that the witness finds
himself in, in that he has given evidence and he is facing the possibility of being
25
referred to the Supreme Court or the Federal Court to be dealt with in relation to
contempt of this Commission. I will grant an adjournment for that purpose but the
report that is required in the present circumstances is a detailed report amongst
other things, specifically addressing the requirement of the witness to continue to
give evidence should that be the case in this Examination or to give evidence in
30
another jurisdiction and in particular his ability to answer questions truthfully. And
I say no more about that matter but I did want to put on the record the context in
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(12/02/2014)
10

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(14/20245)
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which the witness is seeking to obtain professional advice. I will shortly adjourn
the Examination or the further Examination of the witness until the third of March
two thousand and fourteen (03/03/2014) but before that, I do that and intend on
give a non publication direction. In relation to the Examination of Mr
5
ZZ
the
evidence has already been given and the matters that have already discussed
today on the record. Before I do that Ms Howard is there anything further that you
wish to put to me?
MS HOWARD:
10
Yes Examiner, in relation to the any variation to the non
publication direction, Examiner I seek also that the non publication direction permit
the ACC providing the Examination material to any legal representatives engaged
by the ACC with respect to advice in relation to contempt. That would simply be a
variation to permit Examination material to be made available to legal
representatives engaged by the ACC.
15
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MS HOWARD:
Examiner I also seek a variation to this effect, Examiner I
ask that you consider a variation to permit, no I withdraw that, Ill make this
20
separately Examiner, on a separate matter Examiner it would be my submission

that may well be necessary for the Commission to also seek its own independent
expert evaluation of any diagnosis of the applicant and it may well be that the
ACC may require permission to provide any expert engaged by the ACC, Im
imagining our own independent psychiatrist to prepare their own report in relation
25
to any diagnosis that is made of the Mr

Id also be seeking Mr
ZZ
ZZ
mental state. And on that basis
consent in effect a waiver of his any privilege that
he has with the doctor to make that information available to the Commission and
also permission from Mr
ZZ
to make any report available to any independent
psychiatrist engaged by the ACC to prepare their own expert evaluation of Mr

30
ZZ
At the appropriate stage Examiner I note that Mr Butterfield did attend
the Commission today earlier on to view the Examination material, I note

_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(12/02/2014)
11

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(14/20245)
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throughout the course of that, that may well be that Mr Butterfield has made notes
in relation to the questions asked and the evidence given by his client. I seek that
those notes particular notes be surrendered to you the Examiner in order to
prepare the questions, in order to protect the confidentiality of the questions asked
5
and the answers given in relation to this special operation, Examiner. They can
be handed up and sealed and made available to Mr Butterfield when he requires
access.
MR SAGE:
10
Mr Butterfield is there anything you wish to put to me in
relation to the non publication direction and or anything Ms Howard has sought?
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes. Well theres no issues regards to these non, the non
publication directions, the amendments to enable them to refer the material to

their own legal representatives.
15
On the issue of the consent of my client to
disclosure of his own psychiatric records for the purposes of an independent

report from the ACC, sorry I stood up again but I havent,
MR SAGE:
Thats okay if youre more comfortable standing thats
fine.
20
MR BUTTERFIELD:
No thank you. I do, I would like the opportunity to speak
to my client about that,
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Just to confirm whether or not, such consent is to be
25
given, I understand the concerns the ACC might have in regards to obtaining their
own report,
30
MR SAGE:
Yes.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(12/02/2014)
12

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(14/20245)
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MR BUTTERFIELD:
I just want to explain the details of that. In regards to the
surrender of notes, I do have an issue with that in the sense that Ive covered not
only the, because there has been no transcript made available, although I
understand one had been ordered, my notes cover not only conversations which
5
would normally be subject to privilege between my client and I but also some of
the questions and answers that I wasnt privy to.
10
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
I can certainly give an undertaking, as there is already a
non publication order in regards to all of the material from the hearing.
15
MR SAGE:
Which will bind you.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Which will bind me as an officer of the Court, I would have
to comply with that.
20
MR SAGE:
Well it is a little unusual that youve come into late and,
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes.
MR SAGE:
We only got the draft transcript to you this morning.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
No, I didnt get a draft transcript, sorry Examiner.
MR SAGE:
Pardon?
MR BUTTERFIELD:
I,
MR SAGE:
Im sorry you only got the tape this morning.
25
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(12/02/2014)
13

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(14/20245)
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10
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes, I,
MR SAGE:
Yeah, access to the tape.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
And thats all the opportunity Ive had was the,
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Forty (40) odd minutes this morning to try and go through
that.
MR SAGE:
No, on your undertaking that you will secure those notes
and use them only for the purpose of giving advice to Mr
ZZ
and destroy them
when this Examination has concluded, Ill permit you have acc to retain those
15
notes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thank you. The only other issue was the date, Examiner,
I just wondering whether or not there was any possibility of not sitting, not
recommencing on the third (3rd) but perhaps later in that week, I understand that
20
you have a number of Examinations either pre-booked. Im already in a significant

appeal matter that day unfortunately.
25
MR SAGE:
Well the Friday I think is available.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Is the seventh (7th)?
MR SAGE:
Friday the seventh (7th),
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thats certainly,
MR SAGE:
Its available for me.
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(12/02/2014)
14

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(14/20245)
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MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thats certainly more suitable for myself.
MR SAGE:
I dont want a situation where we change legal
representatives now.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Well its entirely a matter for Mr
ZZ
I hope he wouldnt
either Examiner but I already have an appeal, a significant appeal booked on the
third (3rd) and just wondering,
10
15
MR SAGE:
No, thats,
MS HOWARD:
Thats suitable Examiner.
MR SAGE:
Okay. So Ill make it Friday the seventh (7th) of March, ten
(10:00) am. Now, would you like me to leave the bench while you speak to your
client about,
MR BUTTERFIELD:
20
If thats permissible Examiner, I just want to explain what
it is that the Commissions actually asking him to consent to.
MR SAGE:
Okay. Well well just take a short adjournment and let me
know when your ready to come back Mr Butterfield.
25
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thank you.
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MR RAWE:
30
ADJOURNMENT
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(12/02/2014)
15

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(14/20245)
PROTECTED
MR RAWE:
MR SAGE:
Take a seat thanks. Mr Butterfield.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes thank you Examiner, Ive had that opportunity to
speak to my client, he is prepared to consent on the record to the obtaining of the

medical records for the purposes of the ACC preparing its own report but hes
indicated that he will not consent to any appointment or Examination by any
10
independent psychiatrist at this stage.
MR SAGE:
So hell consent to providing a copy of his medical report
for the purpose of the ACC obtaining independent,
15
MR BUTTERFIELD:
An independent report?
MR SAGE:
Professional advice?
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes.
MR SAGE:
But wont consent to an independent professional,
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thats correct.
MR SAGE:
Appointment?
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thats correct.
MR SAGE:
Ms Howard.
20
25
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(12/02/2014)
16

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(14/20245)
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MS HOWARD:
I think thats fine, Examiner and Ill just clarify the consent.
The consent will be the provision of the report and it ought to also include the
provision of the report and medical and other medical records including those that
we have.
5
MR SAGE:
So we dont get any of this wrong, can I suggest that you
and Mr Butterfield draft an exception to the non publication direction that Im about
to give and agree to the terms of it?
10
MS HOWARD:
Yes Examiner we can draft consent orders with respect to
the psychiatrist report and medical records.
15
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MS HOWARD:
Yes.
MR SAGE:
And you can also what you require in relation to
independent legal representation being briefed by the Australian Crime

Commission,
20
25
MS HOWARD:
Yes.
MR SAGE:
A clause for that also.
MS HOWARD:
Yes,
MR SAGE:
Okay.
MS HOWARD:
Examiner.
MR SAGE:
Ill leave the bench and let me know when thats ready.
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(12/02/2014)
17

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(14/20245)
PROTECTED
MS HOWARD:
Thank you Examiner.
MR RAWE:
All stand. Examination will take an adjournment.
5
ADJOURNMENT
10
15
MR RAWE:
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MS HOWARD:
Thanks.
MR SAGE:
Ms Howard, thank you for the draft. I have before me a
handwritten consent order that the witness consents to the provision of any
psychiatric report and medial records made on his behalf to a psychiatrist or
psychologist for the preparation of an independent assessment on his current
mental state signed by the witness dated today. That consent will be Exhibit
fourteen (14). As I said I intend to give a non-publication direction in relation to
20
this witnesss Examination and I give that direction pursuant to Subsection 9 of

Section 25A of the Australian Crime Commission Act 2002. I direct that there be
no publication or communication of any of the evidence given thus far in this
Examination, be no publication of the fact that the witness was summonsed before
the Australian Crime Commission and has given evidence, be no publication of
25
any information or any evidence that might identify or tend to identify the witness.
No publication of the fact that the witness was summonsed to appear at the
Australian Crime Commission on the third of February two thousand and fourteen
(03/02/2014), Wednesday the twelfth of February two thousand and fourteen
(12/02/2014) and is required to further attend on Friday the seventh of March two
30
thousand and fourteen (07/03/2014) at ten (10:00) am.
I give the following
exceptions to this non publication direction, the Chief Executive Officer, the
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(12/02/2014)
18

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(14/20245)
PROTECTED
Examiners and members of staff of the Australian Crime Commission, the

Australian Federal Police, the Joint Counter Terrorism Team and the Australian
Intelligence Community. As a further exception to this non-publication direction, I
include legal representatives engaged by the Australian Crime Commission to
5
give advice, to be instructed and to give advice in relation to matters concerning

the Examination of Mr
ZZ
ZZ
Further exception to
treating psychiatrist or any other forensic psychiatrist engaged by the
witness Mr
ZZ
in relation to his appearance on the Summons, Summons
number double zero on six of two thousand and fourteen (0016/2014) including
10
communications between his legal representative and the psychiatrist or

psychiatrists. Further to any psychiatrists and or psychologists engaged by the
Australian Crime Commission for the preparation of an independent report on the
witness Mr
ZZ
They that is the direction and the exceptions and unless there
be anything further I will now, before I do. Mr Butterfield, what I am expecting to

15
get and require to be produced on the next occasion is a detailed report from a
psychiatrist or a psychologist having regard to the nature of the proceedings now
before me in this Examination. That requirement that I am giving is under Section
28(4), I think Ill just go with provision, 28(4), the Examiner who is holding an
Examination may require a person appearing at the Examination to produce a
20
document or other thing. So what I am requiring to be produced pursuant to

Section 28(4) is a detailed report for the purposes of this Examination.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Can I just note Examiner the only issue I have is the
ability to meet the sufficient detail and I wonder whether in the circumstances
25
appropriate to differ a report is obtained and with the sufficient time that a copy
can be forwarded to the ACC in particular the legal representative to ascertain if
such detail will suffice for production. I dont want to get to a position where a
report is produced shortly before the next date of the Examination is and then find
that the detail is insufficient.
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(12/02/2014)
19

PROTECTED
(14/20245)
PROTECTED
MR SAGE:
Well if that report can be provided, well I can give you a
date and time.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Im a bit,
MR SAGE:
Its part,
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Loathed, Im loathed to obtain a timetable, could I just ask
that and I take it that there wont be any issue that if a report is obtained that a
10
copy be forwarded as soon as possible so that, if the concern is that the degree of
detail that at least I can try and have it attended to.
MR SAGE:
Well I prefer if there were a timetable, otherwise well get
to the seventh (7th) of March and my req, my direction requiring production will not
15
be complied with. I will require the report to be provided to the Commission on or

before five (5:00) pm on Tuesday the fourth of March two thousand and fourteen
(04/03/2014).
If there be nothing further Ill now formally adjourn the further
Examination of Mr
ZZ
until Friday the seventh of March two thousand and
fourteen (07/03/2014) at ten (10:00) am. Mr Butterfield, thank you.

20
25
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thank you.
MS HOWARD:
Thank you Examiner.
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MR RAWE:
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(12/02/2014)
20

PROTECTED
(14/20245)
PROTECTED
TRANSCRIPT
OF PROCEEDINGS
_____________________________________________________________
PROTECTED
_____________________________________________________________
Examinations
ZZ
SYDNEY
Friday 07 March 2014
QUALITY CONTROL CHECK COMPLETED BY BRAD RAWE ON

14/04/2014.
ZZ
(07/03/2014)

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MR RAWE:
Please stand. This Examination of the Australian Crime
MR SAGE:
5
Take a seat thanks.
Examination of Mr
ZZ
This is a resumption of the
who was last before me on the twelfth (12th) of
February, sorry on the twelfth of February two thousand and fourteen

(12/02/2014), when I adjourned the Examination so Mr
ZZ
could attend a
psychiatrist and a report be prepared and provided to the Commission.
Mr
Butterfield, I do have a copy of the report of Dr Richard Furst, dated the twenty
10
eighth of February two thousand and fourteen (28/02/2014),
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes Examiner.
MR SAGE:
And I understand Miss Deakin has the original of the,
MS DEAKIN:
I've handed it back to Mr Butterfield.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
So Mr Butterfield has the original.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes.
15
20
Could I tender it at this stage if its appropriate
Examiner?
25
MR SAGE:
Yes you can.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
A cover letter to my friend, Miss Deakin, dated the fourth
(4th) of March, a psychiatric report from Dr Richard Furst dated the twenty eighth
of February two thousand and fourteen (28/02/2014).
30
For the record,
electronically sent on the fourth (4th) of March to Miss Deakin as per the orders.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MR SAGE:
Thank you. The covering letter of Mr Butterfield dated the
fourth of March two thousand and fourteen (04/03/2014) with the report of Dr
Richard Furst, F U R S T, Consultant Forensic Psychiatrist, dated the twenty
eighth of February two thousand and fourteen (28/02/2014) and referring to
5
Muhammad
ZZ
the witness, will be Exhibit seventeen (17).
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Mr
10
15
ZZ
Thank you Examiner. Can I just put on record also that
still remains under the care of Dr Bujgar, B U J G A R.
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
There is no reports from Dr Bujgar though as yet.
MR SAGE:
No I understand that. But Mr Butterfield you've had an
opportunity to read the transcript of the evidence of the witness on the third of
February two thousand and fourteen (03/02/2014) and as I understand also the
transcript of the last occasion.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
20
I've had the opportunity to read those this morning, not
completely given the time limitations, but Im fully aware of them. I did on the, for
the record, on the last occasion return as indicated and had the opportunity to
listen to the audio,
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
As well, so I have in effect had the opportunity to read
25
through all the material.
MR SAGE:
30
Okay. And I asked Miss Deakin to bring your attention
particularly to two (2) passages of the transcript of the eleventh (11th) of February
two thousand (2000), ah the third of February two thousand and fourteen
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
(03/02/2014), being pages seventy three to ninety, (73-90) and one hundred to a
hundred and eight (100-108).
MR BUTTERFIELD:
5
Examiner I have had the opportunity to go through those
as I said not in detail, but still I had the opportunity to listen to all these things on
the last occasion.
MR SAGE:
Yes. Well those two (2) areas of questioning in particular
is where my concern about the attitude of the witness, particularly his inability or
10
reluctance or both, to answer truthfully caused me to form an opinion that he was

in contempt of the Australian Crime Commission. Have you raised that with Mr
ZZ
MR BUTTERFIELD:
I have.
MR SAGE:
And does he wish to change his evidence?
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Ah no, for the record Examiner. he does not. He simply
15
indicates that the evidence that hes given is to the best of his recollection, and he
20
notes the report of Dr Furst in regards to his diagnosis of PTSD.
MR SAGE:
Yeah I understand what the doctor has said. The doctor
does not say that the witness is not capable of giving evidence.
25
MR BUTTERFIELD:
No, thats correct.
But I appreciate the opportunity to
canvas that and its my understanding, and as I indicated to Miss Deakin, my

friend, would not be my application for any further adjournments.
MR SAGE:
No.
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MR BUTTERFIELD:
The doctor, for the record, does raise the issues in
regards to the diagnosis and also some of the symptoms in regards to memory
impairment, but even given that I've had the opportunity to speak to the witness
and I understand that he doesnt wish to change any of the evidence hes given so
5
far.
MR SAGE:
Okay. Mr
ZZ
you've heard what your counsel has
said,
10
MR
ZZ
Yes.
MR SAGE:
Is there anything in your evidence you've given thus far
that you wish to change?
15
MR
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
Is your evidence that you've given thus far in your
Examination truthful?
20
MR
ZZ
Yes.
MR SAGE:
What Im going to do is, were going to continue the
Examination. We will probably re-visit some of the areas and there will be some
further questions to be asked of you and Ill review my position after that
25
questioning has happened.
MR
ZZ
(Witness nods head)
MR SAGE:
30
Mr Butterfield, is there anything further youd wish to put
before we proceed?
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MR BUTTERFIELD:
No Examiner.
MR SAGE:
Thank you. Miss Deakin.
MS DEAKIN:
Thank you Sir.
I appreciate the submissions by Mr
Butterfield and the evidence by the witness that he is not in a position to provide
any further or different evidence about the matters that we spoke about.
However, for clarity and to ensure that there is no risk that the witness has been
treated unfairly I would like to briefly re-visit those areas that we spoke about on
10
the last occasion.
MR SAGE:
Thank you. Thats what I anticipated,
MS DEAKIN:
Yes. So,
MR SAGE:
You would do Miss Deakin.
MS DEAKIN:
The first (1st) thing is could the witness be shown Exhibit
15
four (4). Do you have the original?

20
MR RAWE:
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
Yes, if the witness could be shown the original, Exhibit
four (4), thank you. For the record that is a photo of a group of people, Im
25
instructed it is at Sydney Airport. Theres a record on the top that says nineteen
oh four twenty seven (19:04:27), which is the time, yeah four minutes past seven
(07:04)pm in the evening on the twenty ninth of September two thousand and
thirteen (29/09/2013). Can you tell the Examiner who, if anyone, in that photo do
you recognise?
30
MR
ZZ
Ah no-one.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MS DEAKIN:
MR
You need to speak up a little.
ZZ
No-one.
5
MS DEAKIN:
No-one. You recognise no-one in the photo in Exhibit four
(4)?
MR
ZZ
(Witness nods head)
10
MS DEAKIN:
In particular do you recognise the man in white on the
right?
MR
ZZ
No Mam.
15
20
25
MS DEAKIN:
Thank you. If that Exhibit could be returned.
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MS DEAKIN:
And if the witness could be shown Exhibit five (5).
MR SAGE:
Yes, sorry.
MS DEAKIN:
Again, this is a photo, Im instructed at Sydney Airport.
There is writing on the top saying QUE 2/C235 and the time marked eighteen fifty
seven and thirty two seconds (18:57:32) and the date twenty ninth of September
two thousand and thirteen (29/09/2013). Can you tell who, if anyone, in that photo
you recognise?
30
MR
ZZ
Only meself.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
Only yourself?
(Witness nods head)
Which person there is you?
The left.
Which one (1) is you?
10
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
On the left.
On the left, The one (1) with white strap down over the
shoulder?
15
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
Yeah.
Yes. And in particular do you recognise the man standing
at the counter with the white hat?

20
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
No.
No. You dont recognise that person. And are you able to
recall whose bag you were carrying at that time?

25
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
No.
So you, with the white strap, youre carrying something,
you,
30
MR
ZZ
Its my bag, the white straps mine.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MS DEAKIN:
Let me just make myself clear here. The man that youve
identified as you,
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
Has a white strap over his shoulder.
Yeah, thats me.
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
15
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
Yes, thats you. Do you know what that white strap is?
Its my bag.
Its a bag. Its your bag is it?
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
Okay. Thank you. If that Exhibit could be returned.
MR SAGE:
Miss Deakin I omitted to mention and probably not
20
essential that I do, but because this is a continuation of the Examination of the
witness and the formalities that I went through at the opening included a direction
giving the witness protection in response to his claim of self incrimination. The
25
affect of that direction continues for the remainder of the Examination and the
evidence is giving, the witness is giving evidence under the oath that he swore on
the last occasion, the previous occasion. Thank you.
MS DEAKIN:
30
Grateful to you Mr Examiner. Thank you. If the witness
could be shown Exhibit six (6).
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MS DEAKIN:
Photo of a man with a beard, do you recognise that man?
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
No.
But you need to speak up?
No.
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
15
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
Have you ever seen that man before?
No, not that I recall.
And obviously you dont know his name?
No.
MS DEAKIN:
If that document could be returned.
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MS DEAKIN:
Examiner I would ask you to advise the witness that the
20
questions that I have just asked about identification of people in the photos are
25
material to the special operation pursuant to which this Examination is being held.
MR SAGE:
Yes. I reminded the witness on the first (1st) occasion that
the questions that he was being asked that I didnt believe he was answering
truthfully or attempting to answer in fact were important questions. They are in
30
fact material questions which means that they are questions that are very
important to this investigation thats being conducted by the Australian Crime
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
10

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
Commission and they are asked on the basis that it is important for the
furtherance of the investigation that those questions be answered truthfully by
you, do you understand?
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
Yes. Yes.
Thank you. You need to keep your voice up. Im having a
lot of trouble hearing you in this room.
10
15
MR
ZZ
Yes.
MR SAGE:
Miss Deakin.
MS DEAKIN:
Thank you.
Do you know a person called (
YAAY )?
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
Yes.
Yes. When did you last see Mr (YAAY )?
20
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
30
ZZ
No I've never seen him.
You've never seen him?
No.
When did you last speak to him?
Never spoken to him. I've just found my name on the net
alongside his name after Ive came here.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
11

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
You've never spoken to Mr (YAAY )?
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
No, not that I recall.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
You've never met him?
ZZ
Not that I recall Mam.
MS DEAKIN:
Have you ever exchanged any communication, SMS,
10
MR
ZZ
Not that,
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
Email?
ZZ
Not that I recall.
MS DEAKIN:
On the last occasion, that is two (2) occasions before this,
you were played a telephone call. I asked you to listen to a telephone call you
remember that?
20
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
Mm, mm.
Yes. I would like you to listen to that call again now,
(Witness nods head)
And tell me if you recognise the voices. Could I please
have tape five six two (562) played.
30
MR SAGE:
Yes.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
12

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MS DEAKIN:
For the record this is a call intercepted between telephone
number
number
to phone
(
) at one
twenty seven (01:27)pm on twenty ninth of September two thousand and thirteen
5
(29/09/2013), and its call record five six two (562). Thank you.
MR SAGE:
Thank you. That can be played.
CALL PLAYED
10
15
M1
Hello (wds).
M2
(wds) what happened.
M1
(wds) Im need to see my in-laws at the moment bro. Can

you come to the airport today?
20
M2
To the airport?
M1
Yeah. I have to go and say goodbye to my parents and

my in-laws.
MS DEAKIN:
25
Can we stop for a moment.
CALL PLAYED
M2
Well what, what time are you leaving?
M1
Im leaving very soon bro.
M2
Oh youre leaving.....
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
13

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
Do you recognise the voices in that call?
Yeah, only mine.
5
MS DEAKIN:
MR
10
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
15
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
Yours? You,
I didnt make that call.
Okay. So, but again can I ask you please to speak clearly
Yeah, I dont remember that call taking place.
You don't remember the call but what Im asking you now
is, do you recognise the voices?
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
25
Only mine but its not,
because your voice needs to be recorded.
MR
20
Sorry?
One (1) of them sounds like my voice.
One (1) of them sounds like your voice and one (1) of
them is someone else, yeah?
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
Yeah.
Are you known by a name beginning with Abu?
30
MR
ZZ
No.
or
, thats it.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
14

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
Youre not called Abu?
No.
5
MS DEAKIN:
MR
10
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
15
Most Muslim men are called Abu something aren't they?
I dont know.
Thats a, am I right there?
I dont know.
Am I right that most Muslim men are known by an Abu
name?
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
No. All my mates are called by their names.
Are you ever called Abu Hussein?
20
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
No.
With respect Examiner I think this is, we are already at
such an early stage venturing into contemptuous territory. If the witness claims
25
not to know his own name,
MR SAGE:
Yes, yes.
MS DEAKIN:
I think maybe he needs a reminder.
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
15

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MR SAGE:
Mr
ZZ
again I remind you that it is essential for the
Commission and for you to tell the truth in this Examination. From the information
available to me through the investigation and the gathering of intelligence
information and material by the Commission and its partner agencies, I am certain
5
that you are not telling the truth. I've told you a short time ago that it is, you are
being asked questions that are very important questions. Theyre not general
questions, they are very specific questions. They are questions to which I believe
you should know and be able to give truthful answers,
10
ZZ
MR
Im giving,
MR SAGE:
And youre not.
ZZ
MR
I am. Im giving the best answers I can give.
15
MR SAGE:
Giving the best answer you can,
ZZ
MR
She, she saying to me my name, Ive told her my name.
Ive not been known by any name other than my own name.
20
or
, thats it.
MR SAGE:
You've been asked about the phone call that was played
to you.
25
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
No I dont recall the phone call.

About the second (2nd) voice that was on that phone call.
I dont even, Im not, its not even my voice. I, I,
30
MR SAGE:
Its not your voice?
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
16

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
ZZ
No, youse have probably done something to it.
MR SAGE:
Well, Im not sure that we can go much further.
MR
5
MR
ZZ
(Witness nods head)
MR SAGE:
As I have said to you it is very important that you answer
these questions truthfully and youre not and I believe that you have the capacity
10
to answer the question truthfully. There is nothing in the psychiatrist report that
would suggest to me that you have lost the ability to answer truthfully. So Im
going to leave the bench now. Im going to consider what I do in relation to the
furtherance of this Examination, and Mr Butterfield if your client needs to get
further advice I can tell you before I leave the bench that I am still of the opinion
15
that the witness is in contempt of the Australian Crime Commission, and that does
not leave me with many options.
20
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes Examiner.
MR SAGE:
Well take a short adjournment, thank you.
MR RAWE:
All stand. Well take a short adjournment.
ADJOURNMENT
25
MR RAWE:
All stand.
MR SAGE:
Take a seat thanks. Miss Deakin.
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
17

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MS DEAKIN:
Thank you Sir. In the adjournment I've had an opportunity
to speak to Mr Butterfield. We all agreed that there seems, there is no worth in

proceeding further today. The course that I would propose is that the Examination
be adjourned to a convenient date. I understand that all relevant parties are
5
10
available on the fifteenth (15th) of April,
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MS DEAKIN:
With a view that you, as I understand the current intention
proposed to make an application for orders under the contempt provisions.
MR SAGE:
Yes I have not changed my opinion. Section 34B of the
Australian Crime Commission Act provides if an Examiner is of the opinion that

during an Examination before the Examiner, a person is in contempt of the ACC,
15
the Examiner may apply to either of the following courts for the person to be dealt
with in relation to the contempt. Part A, the Federal Court, B, the Supreme Court
of the State or Territory in which the Examination to which the contempt relates is
being conducted. So I havent changed my opinion. The matter can be prepared
for referral to the Federal Court or the Supreme Court during the adjournment and
20
on the fifteenth (15th) of April no doubt I will give Mr
ZZ
one (1) final
opportunity before the matter is referred to the court to change his mind and
answer questions that are put to him in a truthful manner. As I have said Mr
ZZ
it is a very serious matter for you to be in contempt of the Australian Crime
Commission and youve been given a number of opportunities, both with and
25
without counsel being present, to answer questions truthfully and I am of the

opinion that you havent done that and as I said the matter will be referred to the
Federal or Supreme Court to be dealt with. Miss Deakin, I understand also that
the witness has consented to his passports and
identification being
retained by the Australian Crime Commission?

30
MS DEAKIN:
Thats what I understand. Mr Butterfield?
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
18

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes, I have those instructions Your Honour,
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Examiner the,
MR SAGE:
For the duration of the Examination.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes understand until the fifteenth (15th) is the next date
10
set. Mr
15
ZZ
consents for the purposes,
MR SAGE:
Yes. Okay.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Of the proceedings for them being retained until that date.
MR SAGE:
Those documents, the witness
current, number
passport, which is
, is Exhibit ten (10) and will remain as Exhibit ten (10).
The witness Australian passports are current passport number

20
and
cancelled passport
are Exhibit eleven (11) and will continue being held
as those Exhibits.
I do intend to give a non-publication direction before we
adjourn.
MS DEAKIN:
25
And theres one (1) other matter if I could ask that, for a
direction that the witness produce the contents of his mobile phone and that he
advise any password to allow access to that phone.
I understand that the
technician is available to do that work today. It depends on the type of phone how
long it takes but I can, theres no need to hold the witness here while that
happens, and we can make arrangements for its return as soon as possible.
30
MR SAGE:
Mr
ZZ
do you have a mobile phone with you today?
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
19

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MR
ZZ
Yeah, but its ah old Nokia so.
MR SAGE:
What is the number of it?
5
MR
ZZ
I dont, the mobile number?
MR SAGE:
10
MR
Yes.
ZZ
I've got to get from the phone. Its in a locker if youse
want it but its an old Nokia. I dont know what youse can get from it except
messages and that.
MR SAGE:
15
Well thats not a matter for you as to what we can get from
it.
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
No, no Im not saying with all due respect, I'm just saying,
The content of your phone is of importance to the,
20
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
No, no Im not, Im not saying that.
Operation the Commissions conducting. And Ill give you
an opportunity now to go and recover the phone.

25
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
(Witness nods head)
Bring it in, identify it to me. Firstly, Ill give you a direction
to produce the phone and the content of the phone can be downloaded and it will
30
be retained at the Commission as an Exhibit.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
20

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MR
ZZ
My phone?
MR SAGE:
MR
No, the content.
ZZ
Oh.
MR SAGE:
Im requiring you to produce the contents of your phone,
the data that is on it but of course to facilitate that you have to produce the phone
that its in.
10
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
Okay?
ZZ
Yeah.
MR
15
MR
MR SAGE:
So Ill leave the bench again very shortly so you can go
and recover the phone, identify it, does it have any password on it?
20
MR
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
MR
None.
ZZ
Nothing.
25
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Just before you rise. The issue of the exception in the
non-publication orders, I wonder if that might also continue, such that any
30
psychiatric professionals maybe discussed with,
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
21

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(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MR SAGE:
Okay. Miss Deakin?
MS DEAKIN:
Im not clear the purpose.
The psychiatric report has
been produced, is it your submission that the, if the witness requires ongoing
5
psychiatric care and that disclosure of matters in the Examination is necessary for
that therefore?
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes. As I indicated Examiner hes still under the care of
Dr Bajgar and continues to be so.

10
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
And there was a order that was made by consent and
drafted in regards to the exception to non-publication to permit him to speak to his

15
psychiatric professionals and his legal representatives with such professionals.

Im asking that that order also be continued.
MR SAGE:
I have a copy of that here, yes. To the witness treating
psychiatrist or any other forensic psychiatrist engaged by Mr

20
ZZ
in relation to
his appearance on the Summons number, including communication between his

legal representative and the psychiatrist.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
And I ask that that order continue for the exception of the
non-publication order.
25
30
MR SAGE:
Miss Deakin thats the,
MS DEAKIN:
No objection on that basis.
MR SAGE:
Okay. Okay well Ill deal with that when I come back.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
22

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(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thank you.
MR RAWE:
All stand. This Examination will take a short adjournment.
ADJOURNMENT
MR RAWE:
MR SAGE:
Take a seat thanks.
MS DEAKIN:
Thank you Sir. The witness has taken a phone out of the
10
locker and has it in front of him. Mr
ZZ
can I ask you is that your phone that
you have in front of you there?
15
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Is that the only mobile phone you have?
ZZ
Yeah, yeah.
20
MS DEAKIN:
Is that the only mobile phone you have used in the last
two (2) weeks?
MR
ZZ
25
MS DEAKIN:
Have you used another phone in the last two (2) weeks
other than that one (1)?
MR
ZZ
Like other peoples, other peoples phones?
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
23

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(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MS DEAKIN:
Other peoples phones.
Why have you used other
peoples phones?
MR
5
ZZ
Are you asking me if I've made calls from other peoples
phones?
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Yes.
ZZ
Yeah, of course.
10
MS DEAKIN:
You have?
You've made calls from other peoples
phones?
MR
ZZ
Yeah my mums, my dads, mine.
15
MS DEAKIN:
Right so lets just go through that. You've made calls from
your mums phone?
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
20
MS DEAKIN:
MR
25
Yeah. Whats her number?
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
one (1) second.
For the record the witness is looking up the number in the
phone thats in front of him.
MR
ZZ
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
24

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(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MS DEAKIN:
You have made phone calls from your mothers phone
number
yeah.
Have you made phone calls from anyone elses phone?
MR
ZZ
Yeah, well what do you mean by that?
MS DEAKIN:
MR
10
Have you made phone calls from anyone elses phones?
ZZ
I don't know.
I just make calls to whoever I want, to
whoever I want.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
From. Have you picked up someone elses phone,
ZZ
Yeah.
15
MS DEAKIN:
MR
And made a call from it?
ZZ
Yeah. So what if I have, I dont get, I dont get why would
you ask me that?

20
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
Just answer the question.
Yeah, I dont, I dont know. So what, dont you ever pick
up someone elses phone, someone calls for you, someone, you call someone
25
else back from someone elses phone and would remember every instance.
MS DEAKIN:
How many, whose phone have you used, made calls
from,
30
MR
ZZ
Dont worry, just mine, just mine, just mine.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
25

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(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MS DEAKIN:
No. I dont want you just to give me an answer to stop
me, stop, to make me shut up.
MR
ZZ
What are you talking about? Youre talking, youre talking,
5
MS DEAKIN:
MR
10
ZZ
I wont, Mr
ZZ
do not speak over the top of me.
Youre talking about, no youre talking about me using,
ZZ
Mr
MR SAGE:
Just a moment. Let counsel,
MR
ZZ
Mr
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
Shes talking bout me making phone calls to people.
15
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
Yeah, look Im, are you going to listen to me?
Do you remember every phone call you've made this
week?
20
MR SAGE:
MR
25
ZZ
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
Are you going to listen to me? Are you?
(Witness shakes head)
Yes or no?
Yeah, go on. Go ahead.
MR SAGE:
Yes or no?
ZZ
I said yeah.
30
MR
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
26

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MR SAGE:
Miss Deakin is asking you questions.
Listen to her
question and answer the question.
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
Okay.
And nothing else, okay?
Yeah, alright. Ask your question.
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
15
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
Whose phone have you used in the past two (2),
Mine and my mums.
Let me finish my question. Whose phone have you used
in the last two (2) weeks to make phone calls?
MR
20
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
Mine and my mums.
Anybody else?
No.
Who did you ring off your mums phone?
25
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
30
MR
My missus.
And whats her number?
ZZ
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
27

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(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
10
And how many times did you call
her from your mums phone?
MR
ZZ
I dont remember. I dont remember.
MS DEAKIN:
Was it once or more than once?
15
MR
ZZ
I dont remember.
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
Do you remember whether it was more than once?
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
Have you called anyone else off anyone elses phone in
the last two (2) weeks?
25
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
I dont remember. I dont remember.
You dont remember?
No.
30
MS DEAKIN:
Has anyone else used that phone, your phone?
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
28

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MR
ZZ
I dont know. Its left around. So if someone picked it up
Ive got no, Im not aware. So not that Im aware of.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
When did you last leave it around?
ZZ
Every day.
MS DEAKIN:
Where do you leave it around?
10
MR
ZZ
At home.
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
Who else is at home?
ZZ
I dont know. Im not aware whos at home at the time I
leave it around.
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
How often is your phone out of your possession?
ZZ
I dont know.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
25
You dont carry it around yourself normally?
ZZ
No I do, I do, but sometimes when Im at home I leave at
home (okay).
MS DEAKIN:
Now I want you to think carefully before you answer. How
often in the last two (2) weeks have you left your phone lying around?
30
MR
ZZ
I dont remember.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
29

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MS DEAKIN:
Well if need be we can go through the phone and look at
the calls and you can tell me for each call, number thats been dialled whether that
was you or if was someone else, do you want to do that?
MR
ZZ
Yeah go for it.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Does that phone have a password on it?
ZZ
No it doesnt.
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
No. Anyone can just pick it up and use it?
ZZ
Listen, well go through the calls. Everythings there. Its
all good. Theres nothing to hide in it. Take it. Youre doing to download the info
15
now. Im not hiding nothing. I dont know what youre trying to get at.
MS DEAKIN:
All those calls that are made in the last two (2) weeks did
you make them?
20
MR
ZZ
From, yeah most likely. Like if someone else picked it up
its not my business.
MS DEAKIN:
I dont think if I can take that any further. I ask for an
order that the contents of the witness phone be downloaded and the phone be
25
returned to the witness at a time convenient and to be arranged with his legal
representative.
MR SAGE:
Okay. Ive already required the witness to produce the
phone and for the downloading of the content of the phone and Ill now require the
30
content of the phone to be produced, just to clarify that I have done that. The
phone can be taken away and downloaded and arrangements can be made
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
30

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
between Mr Butterfield and Miss Deakin before you leave for the collection of the
phone.
MS DEAKIN:
5
Thank you Sir.
Nothing further other than the non-
publication direction.
MR SAGE:
Mr Butterfield are there any questions you wish to ask the
witness before we conclude?
10
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Mr
ZZ
are there any calls potentially to or from your
legal representatives contained on that phone?
MR
15
ZZ
Yeah.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR
ZZ
And messages as well?
Yeah everything.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
And they might concern private legal advice?
20
MR
25
ZZ
Yeah.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thank you.
MR SAGE:
Those,
MR BUTTERFIELD:
That might, ah sorry I should ask, that might include my
telephone number as well?
30
MR
ZZ
Yeah, yeah.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
31

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MS DEAKIN:
I can certainly give an undertaking that we will take steps
to protect legal/professional privilege. As I understand the process, the technical

process, a dump so to speak is made of the phone,
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MS DEAKIN:
That is all the contents of the phone are downloaded. Its
not possible to go through and selectively copy. However we, once the dump is
made we can then quarantine messages and calls from a particular number.
10
Thats the best that I can offer. So if, its only going to be your number I assume,
sorry Ill address,
15
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Mm.
MS DEAKIN:
The Examiner.
I assume that there are only two (2)
relevant numbers, Mr Butterfields mobile phone number and Mr Butterfields

chambers number.
MR SAGE:
Well Mr Butterfield can tell me that. The numbers,
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
The numbers that you would've been contacted on as far
20
as you know Mr Butterfield?

25
30
MR BUTTERFIELD:
That will be my mobile telephone number,
MR SAGE:
That number?
MR BUTTERFIELD:
As my friends indicated, my chambers number, and my
friend has those.

_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
32

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MR SAGE:
Okay.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
And they can be produced to the Examine, for the
Examination. But Id ask that any potential issues in regards to legal/professional

privilege,
10
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
That those items be quarantined and either, be identified
and not viewed.
MR SAGE:
They would only be SMS messages I would've thought
that would be downloaded.

15
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Well there might be records of phone calls to and from,
from,
MR SAGE:
But there wont content of those phone calls.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Content might not then?
MR SAGE:
No.
MS DEAKIN:
I dont know that the fact of a call is privileged itself. I
20
25
think its only the content,
30
MR SAGE:
I dont think Mr Butterfields suggesting that at all.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
No. If there are messages that have been sent to and
from,
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
33

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MR SAGE:
Yeah.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
That they may, that might transgress some privilege.
MR SAGE:
They will be quarantined.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Ah given I dont know if this is the number that Ive had to
deal with Mr
ZZ
on but he has indicated that that is the case, so Id ask that,
10
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Any numbers that are associated with myself be
quarantined and not examined, and it be not subject to the,

15
20
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Production.
MS DEAKIN:
Does the phone, is the phone capable of sending and
receiving emails?
MR
25
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
No, okay. So were,
MR SAGE:
Okay.
MS DEAKIN:
Only talking about calls and SMSs.
MR SAGE:
Yeah.
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
34

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MS DEAKIN:
Alright.
Perhaps for the record, if Mr Butterfield could
read on to the record the two (2) numbers that were talking about. Hes right I do
have but just, so were sure.
5
MR BUTTERFIELD:
They should be nine six three five one thousand
(9635 1000) which is the chambers number or alternatively my personal mobile

zero four one two zero nine four six nine four (0412 094 694).
10
MR SAGE:
Nine four (94).
MR BUTTERFIELD:
I anticipate there maybe text messages between, if this is,
MR SAGE:
Okay.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
A contact number that I've used for Mr
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
And those messages would be subject normally to
15
20
ZZ
legal/professional privilege.
MR SAGE:
conclude Mr
25
30
They will be quarantined if theyre there. Okay before we
ZZ
for the duration of this adjournment, from now until ten
(10:00)am on Tuesday, the fourteenth (14th),
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Fifteenth (15th).
MR SAGE:
Sorry, fifteenth (15th) is it? Tuesday, the fifteenth of April
two thousand and fourteen (15/04/2014), I direct that there is to be no

communication other than between the persons I have approved to be present, of
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
35

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
any of the matters arising from your Examination so far. I include the following
exceptions to this non-publication direction the Chief Executive Officer, the
Examiners and members of staff of this Commission, the Australian Federal
Police, the Joint Counter Terrorism Team and the Australian Intelligence
5
Community for any matter within their jurisdictions arising from this special
operation, special Australian Crime Commission operation. I also include as a
ZZ
further exception, Mr
any other forensic psychiatrist engaged by Mr
treating psychiatrist or
ZZ
in relation to his
appearances on the Summons number S oh oh sixteen of two thousand and

10
fourteen
(S0016/2014),
including
communications
between
his
legal
representative, Mr Butterfield, and the treating psychiatrist or other forensic

psychiatrists.
I particularly note that Mr
ZZ
is not to disclose any of the
content of the Examination that is undertaken pursuant to the Summons. Mr
ZZ
15
this direction does not preclude you from further speaking with Mr
Butterfield to give instructions and to receive advice but as I have said beyond Mr
Butterfield and the persons I have approved to be present at this Examination, you
are not to communicate with anyone else, do you understand?
MR
ZZ
Yes.
20
MR SAGE:
I also have in the back of my mind that I may have
mentioned, and counsel may have mentioned, at some time during this
Examination, that it is a special investigation. It may have only been myself that
did that, wherever I have mentioned a special investigation it should read special
25
ACC operation. It is not an investigation that had been conducted. I will now
adjourn, sorry the tape of todays Examination will be Exhibit eighteen (18) and
the download of the content of the phone produced by the witness will be nineteen
(19) when it is available.
ZZ
30
And Ill now adjourn the further Examination of Mr
until ten (10:00)am on Tuesday the fifteenth of April two thousand and
fourteen (15/04/2014). Nothing further?
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
36

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(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MS DEAKIN:
Thank you Sir.
MR SAGE:
Were now adjourned.
MR RAWE:
All stand. This Examination was adjourned.
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MR SAGE:
Okay.
ZZ
10
This is a mention of the Examination of

Summons number sixteen of two thousand and
fourteen (S16/2014) and last before me this morning, and I note Miss Deakin,
counsel assisting, is in attendance. Miss Deakin.
MS DEAKIN:
15
Thank you.
This morning you made an order that the
contents of the witness phone be produced and directed the witness to provide
the phone to the Commission which he did in compliance with that order.
Arrangements were to be made to return that phone. When the inspection of that
phone commenced it became apparent that there were messages which may
possibly constitute evidence of an offence. In order to allow further analysis and
20
review of that material, I ask that the order be amended or that a further order be
made that the Commission retain the phone until further order and not return it to
the witness.
MR SAGE:
25
Yes, Ive been made aware of certain data that is
contained on the phone and as submitted by Miss Deakin I agree the phone
should be further retained by the Commission until it is not further required. And I,
as part of the direction I gave this morning, I now require the phone to be retained
until I give further direction in relation to that phone. I note that Miss Deakin has
spoken with Phillip Butterfield, counsel for the witness, Mr
30
ZZ
and a record, a
summary record of that conversation is contained in Miss Deakins email, dated

Friday, the seventh of March two thousand and fourteen (07/03/2014) at one thirty
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
37

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
eight (01:38)pm.
And I note the matters mentioned by Mr Butterfield in his
conversation with Miss Deakin. The email that I have referred to, Kate Deakin,
seventh of March two thousand and fourteen (07/03/2014) to Mr Butterfield or, yes
to Mr Butterfield at one thirty eight (01:38)pm will be Exhibit twenty one (21).
5
10
MS DEAKIN:
Thank you.
MR SAGE:
Nothing further?
MS DEAKIN:
Nothing further, thank you.
MR SAGE:
As I ordered this morning the Examination is adjourned
until ten (10:00)am on Tuesday the fifteenth of April two thousand and fourteen
(15/04/2014).
15
20
MR RAWE:
(Wds) phone exhibit (wds)?
MR SAGE:
Ah,
MS DEAKIN:
The phone can be, if the phone could be placed with the
Exhibits,
25
MR SAGE:
I think and I made,
MS DEAKIN:
On the other, and made available to the technical staff
when they require it for further analysis.
MR SAGE:
Yeah. I noted that the data would be Exhibit twenty (20)
was it? Nineteen (19).

30
MR RAWE:
Nineteen (19) sorry, yes.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
38

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
MR SAGE:
Exhibit nineteen (19), it can be retained with that Exhibit.
MR RAWE:
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
But made available to the ACC technicians for the
purpose of further downloading the data. Nothing further? We will now adjourn.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(07/03/2014)
39

PROTECTED
(14/36892)
PROTECTED
TRANSCRIPT
OF PROCEEDINGS
_____________________________________________________________
PROTECTED
_____________________________________________________________
Examinations
ZZ
SYDNEY
Tuesday 15 April 2014
DUE TO LIMITED HUMAN RESOURCES, QUALITY CONTROL CHECKING

WILL NO LONGER BE COMPLETED.
ZZ
(15/04/2014)
PROTECTED
(14/59636)
PROTECTED
MR RAWE:
All stand.
MR SAGE:
Take a seat, thank you. Ms Howard.
MS HOWARD:
Thank you Examiner. Examiner, this is a resumption of
ZZ
the Examination of Mr
which was stood over
from the seventh (7th) of March, Examiner to todays date.
10
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MS HOWARD:
The Examination is being held pursuant to a Summons
ZZ
ZZ is
issued by you, Summons number sixteen of twenty fourteen (16/24). Mr

is present today before you Examiner.
15
20
Examiner, also, again, Mr
represented by Mr Butterfield of Counsel.
MR SAGE:
Mr Butterfield.
MS HOWARD:
Examiner, a housekeeping matter. On the last occasion,
a telephone, a Nokia telephone was made an Exhibit in these proceedings Mr
ZZ
telephone was produced to you, Examiner. On the last occasion, the
phone was retained for the purposes of conducting a further interrogation of the
phone.
As I understand it, Examiner, the interrogation has continued and
information has been obtained in relation to the SIM card.

25
Examiner, further
interrogation is still required in relation to the phone data itself. Im instructed,

Examiner, on that basis therefore to seek to retain the phone for that purpose for
that interrogation of the phone data to still be performed, Examiner.
MR SAGE:
Okay. Ill deal with that matter later.
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(15/04/2014)

PROTECTED
(14/59636)
PROTECTED
MS HOWARD:
ZZ
Yes Examiner. Examiner, on the last occasion when Mr
was before you, Examiner, Examiner, you made your comments and had
particular views about the evidence given by Mr
ZZ , Examiner, on that basis I
propose defer to you at this stage for any further comment you wish at this stage.
5
MR SAGE:
Okay. Thank you. Firstly the directions that Ive given on
previous occasions continue for the remainder of the Examination of Mr
ZZ ,
he continues to have the protection where I afforded him in relation, in response to

his claim of self-incrimination. And my memory is that you swore an oath on the
10
first (1st) occasion, is that correct?
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
15
Yes.
I dont have the transcript in front of me but you continue
to be giving any further evidence under that oath. Now on the seventh (7th) of
March when you were last here, Friday the seventh (7th) of March, I reminded you
Mr
ZZ
that it was important to answer questions truthfully and I said to you
that I believe that you were not answering questions truthfully and have not been
answering questions truthfully.
20
I said to you that there was nothing in the
psychiatrist report that would suggest to me that you have lost the ability to
answer truthfully and that I then gave you an opportunity to further consider your
position and I took a break from the Examination and you left with Mr Butterfield in
response to me of forwarding you further opportunity to seek some advice from Mr
Butterfield. I did say to Mr Butterfield before I left the bench at that time that I was
25
still of the opinion that you were in contempt of the Australian Crime Commission
and of course that did not leave me with many options. You returned and a short
time later and you did not change your position in relation to answering questions
truthfully and Ms Deakin informed me when you return that during the
adjournment you had an opportunity to speak with Mr Butterfield and that it was
30
agreed that there seem to be no worth in proceeding further with your

Examination and I then considered adjourning your Examination until today. But
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(15/04/2014)

PROTECTED
(14/59636)
PROTECTED
before I did adjourn until today, I said to you that I had not changed my opinion,
Section 34B of the Australian Crime Commission provides if an Examiner is of the
opinion that during an Examination before the Examiner, a person is in contempt
of the Australian Crime Commission. The Examiner may apply to either of the
5
following courts for a person to be dealt with in relation to contempt. The two (2)
courts were the Federal Court and the Supreme Court of the State or Territory in
which the Examination to which the contempt relates is being conducted. I, again,
expressed to you that my opinion had not changed and that the matter would be
prepared for referral to the Federal Court or the Supreme Court during the
10
adjournment between that date, the seventh of March two thousand and fourteen
(07/03/2014) and today the fifteenth (15th) of April. But I did say Id give you one
(1) final opportunity today to change your position and start answering questions
truthfully and Id give you that opportunity today before I referred the matter to the
Federal Court or to the Supreme Court. Mr Butterfield, no doubt you had an
15
opportunity over the break to give further advice to the witness.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes, I have Examiner.
MR SAGE:
Is there anything you wish to put to me?
MR BUTTERFIELD:
No, only on the issue of the phone retention but that will
20
be dealt with later.
MR SAGE:
25
Okay. So the witness has not changed his position in
relation to the responses that he will give to questions that are being asked of
him?
MR BUTTERFIELD:
The witness still remains at the position he will continue to
answer questions, Your Honour, Examiner.

30
MR SAGE:
I just missed what you said.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(15/04/2014)

PROTECTED
(14/59636)
PROTECTED
MR BUTTERFIELD:
He will continue to answer any questions that are asked of
him.
MR SAGE:
He will continue to answer any questions?
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes, whether or not they satisfy the Examiner or not, the
matter is entirely for the Commission.
10
MR SAGE:
Well in relation to the questions that have already been
asked of the witness, does he wish to change his answers?
MR BUTTERFIELD:
I understand thats not the case that he wishes to change
any answers.
15
MR SAGE:
Well, I dont know that we can go any further if hes not
going to change his answers. Im not satisfied that hes telling the truth in relation
to those matters and I really dont want to go through them again.
20
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Its a matter for the Commission, Examiner but his
position hasnt changed in the sense that hes still here to answer questions as
required under his Summons.
MR SAGE:
25
No that doesnt really address his response to previous
questions that have been asked of him those areas have been the subject of
questions on at least two (2) occasions. Now, we can go through those questions
again but his answers are going to be the same, we get back to the same position
again.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(15/04/2014)

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MR BUTTERFIELD:
ZZ
Well Examiner, all I can say is that instructions from Mr
are, that hes sought to answer the questions that have been asked of him
and he doesnt wish to change any of his answers.
10
MR SAGE:
He doesnt wish to change anything?
MR BUTTERFIELD:
No.
MR SAGE:
Well, is that the case, you dont wish to change any of the
answers that youve given so far,
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
No.
Mr
ZZ ?
15
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
No.
No. So you say that the questions that have been asked
of you so far in this Examination you have answered truthfully,

20
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
25
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
Yes.
To the best of your ability?
Yes.
Well, my position does not change. Im of the opinion that
you are in contempt of the Commission and because I am of the opinion that you
are in contempt of the ACC, the Commission, an application will be made to the
30
Federal Court of Australia for you to be dealt with in relation to the contempt. And
for the purposes of you being taken before the Federal Court to be dealt with in
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ZZ
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relation to the contempt of the Australian Crime Commission, Im going to direct a

constable to detain you for that purpose of bringing you before the Federal Court
to be dealt with on the application for contempt. The constable is to take you as
soon as practicable before the Federal Court. So Im going to leave the bench for
5
a short time and I will come back and then, no, I wont leave the bench. Mr
Butterfield, what I intend to do now is to adjourn the further Examination to a
nominal date and I have the ninth of June two thousand and fourteen
(09/06/2014), its a Monday to mention the Examination on that date if the
proceedings in the Federal Court for contempt are concluded and there is no
10
further requirement for the witness to be examined, I will discharge him on that
date. If there is a further requirement then a further date will be set sometime
after the ninth (9th) of June but Ill set that date on the ninth of June two thousand
and fourteen (09/06/2014).
15
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Examiner, can I just indicate that my client wishes it noted
that his consent to retention of his passports and was on the basis that the
Examination would be concluded. I would like the opportunity just to speak to him
to confirm whether or not hes still,
20
MR SAGE:
Okay.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Is in a position to provide such consent given that you,
Examiner intends to adjourn the proceedings,
25
30
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Rather than finalise them before hes sent over.
MR SAGE:
Okay. Well, look if you can get some instructions on that.
Now in relation to the phone, before I take a short adjournment, you wanted to
make a submission in relation to the retention of the phone.
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MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes. Can I just confirm that on the last occasion the, a
request was made for Mr
ZZ
to produce his phone. Now I understand that
that request was made in accordance potentially with 25A and I note that the
5
original Summons did not include production of any documents,
MR SAGE:
No it didnt.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Only to answer questions,
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
And on two (2) separate occasions, hes produced his
10
phone,
15
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
On no other occasions has the Summons sought to be
admitted to include production of any material if the order was made potentially
20
25
30
under 25A.
MR SAGE:
No it was made under 28(4).
MR BUTTERFIELD:
And I just note that the order under 28(4), the order was
made under 28, Subsection 4,
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
For the record, I was advised in the afternoon by Ms
Deakin that there was to be a request for retention of the phone for as long as
necessary and that there were further proceedings held in my absence, I
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ZZ
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understand Examiner in the afternoon. Im not privy to what orders were made, if
any by the Examiner. I understand those orders, oh sorry, I should say orders, I
am aware of the orders being made but can I confirm that those orders were for
the retention as long as deemed necessary because its now been as I understand
5
10
it some four (4) weeks,
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
And theres a further request for the retention of the
phone. Im not sure why its taking so long.
MR SAGE:
Okay. Look, Ill get some instructions for myself on that
before I come back on the bench and hopefully resolve the issue.
15
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thank you.
MR SAGE:
Okay. Well take a short adjournment. Thank you.
MR RAWE:
All stand. Examination will take an adjournment.
20
ADJOURNMENT
25
MR RAWE:
MR SAGE:
Take a seat, thank you. Ms Howard, I understand the
phone can now be returned.
30
MS HOWARD:
It can, Examiner.
MR SAGE:
Is it here?
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MS HOWARD:
Examiner, for the record the phone was identified as
Exhibit nineteen (19) in the proceedings.
MR SAGE:
5
Just a moment while I just check. Yes the download of
the material from the phone will be Exhibit nineteen (19), yes.
MS HOWARD:
Thank you Examiner. Then on that basis,
MR SAGE:
If Mr
ZZ
can identify the phone as being his.
10
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
15
MR
ZZ
Your phone?
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
Do you want to switch it on and check?
Yeah.
20
MR SAGE:
Thank you. No, you can keep it now and nothing further
in relation to the phone, Mr Butterfield?
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Does that include the SIM card?
MR SAGE:
Well I dont, I assume it does, but thats only an
25
assumption.
MS HOWARD:
30
Examiner, can that just be returned to the, an investigator.
My instructions are that it does contain a SIM card but then can be checked.
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ZZ
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10
MR SAGE:
Not a lot of use asking me.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Whilst thats occurring,
MS HOWARD:
Yes Examiner,
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Sorry.
MS HOWARD:
The investigator has checked the phone, he, and confirms
that the SIM card has,
MR SAGE:
Okay.
MS HOWARD:
Remained in the phone.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Can that in the circumstances, perhaps if that could be
15
handed to Mr
ZZ
and he might return, put it, leave it in my possession if hes
going to be going into custody.
20
MR SAGE:
Okay.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Could I just ask then that it be formally returned to Mr
ZZ
25
and it will remain in my possession,
MR SAGE:
Okay. Thank you.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Rather than, I understand hell be taken immediately into
custody.
30
MR SAGE:
Yes.
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ZZ
(15/04/2014)
11

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MR BUTTERFIELD:
And can I just call for access to the downloads on Exhibit
nineteen (19)?
MR SAGE:
Can you call for them?
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Access to the download and material on Exhibit nineteen
(19).
MR SAGE:
That will be made available to you.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thank you.
MR SAGE:
Now the date I indicated that I was going to adjourn the
10
Examination of the nominal date, I gave the ninth (9th) of June, Ive been informed
15
thats the Queens Birthday Holiday, Public Holiday, the second (2nd) of June is
available the week before.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Examiner, can I just indicate depending upon the outcome
of the application that Im not available in that week if the proceedings were to
20
reconvene for some reason.
MR SAGE:
I didnt intend to continue the Examination in that week, it
simply the mention to suit another date if required and we will consult with you Mr
Butterfield just to your availability,
25
MR BUTTERFIELD:
On that basis then,
MR SAGE:
For a later date and I, unless you wanted to, I wouldnt
require you or anyone else to be here on behalf of Mr
ZZ .
30
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ZZ
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MR BUTTERFIELD:
On the basis that the outcome of the application may have
some bearing on whether the proceedings continue,
MR SAGE:
Thats right.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Then remain on that day and he could be in attendance
for an agent on my behalf on the, with an undertaking that it wouldnt proceed on

that day if necessary.
10
MR SAGE:
Well it wont proceed on that date, definitely not.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Mr
ZZ
has also asked me to express his concern that
the, theres a necessity for an extension of any nominal date given that this is now
his fourth (4th) time that hes been back.
15
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
I understand why the Commission may ask for a nominal
date but in the circumstances given the application I simply put on the record that
20
there is a degree of uncertainty for Mr
ZZ
in regards to the finalisation of
Examination,
25
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
And that raises a concern on his behalf and I think theres
some (wd) to that because depending on what happens with the application with
the Federal Court if hes found to be in contempt, the proceedings may not
continue, they may, I dont know,
30
MR SAGE:
Well look,
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ZZ
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13

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MR BUTTERFIELD:
But fresh Summons could be issued against him, I note.
MR SAGE:
No, I want to keep the Summons on foot, thats the
subject of the contempt proceedings.

5
MR BUTTERFIELD:
I understand the reasoning but Mr
ZZ
has just asked
me to put that on the record.
MR SAGE:
10
Okay.
No, well youve put it on the record and if the
matter is concluded by virtue of the determination of the concept proceedings and

theres no further requirement to examine Mr
ZZ
and we become aware of
that before the second (2nd) of June, then Ill terminate the, Ill relist the matter and
note, advise you that its going to be relisted and excuse the witness and finalise
the Summons.
15
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thank you and Ive served the instructions in regards to
his ongoing consent for the retention of his three (3) passports,
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Formally hes asked me to formally withdraw that consent
20
so the Commission is aware and ask for them to be returned now that that
consent is withdrawn or nor to be made if the Examiner is going to consider
making such an order that they be retained and if so on what basis.
25
30
MR SAGE:
I will,
MR BUTTERFIELD:
I should say if,
MR SAGE:
I,
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ZZ
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MR BUTTERFIELD:
The consent was in writing and it needs to be written,
withdrawn and Ill obtain that from Mr
MR SAGE:
5
10
ZZ
but hes put,
What my position is that the passports and the
identification should be retained until four (4:00) pm tomorrow,
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Could, Examiner,
MR SAGE:
So that the Federal Court, Justice in the Federal Court is
given an opportunity to consider, further consider any application for bail and
whether that is the passports are now identification could be retained as a
condition of any grant of bail.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
15
ZZ
Can, the Examiner knows that the passports are not in Mr
possession to be able to produce,
MR SAGE:
No, theyre here.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Theyre under the Crime Commissions possession,
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
And Your Honour, Examiner, making an order pursuant to
20
a particular, can I just ask what particular provision its been made under in case
25
further provisions need to be made.
MR SAGE:
Well I require the production of them, the passports and
the identification,
identification as I understand is described they are
Exhibits ten (10) and eleven (11) under Section 28, Subsection 4 of the Australian
30
Crime Commission Act and I require the retention by the Commission of the
Exhibits ten (10) and eleven (11) until four (4:00) pm tomorrow the sixteenth of
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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15

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April two thousand and fourteen (16/04/2014) to allow a Justice of the Federal
Court who will be considering an application for contempt arising from this
Examination, hopefully some time today.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
My point is noted, Examiner that hes not produced these
documents himself under Examination, theyve already been,
10
MR SAGE:
Well,
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Retained by the Commission.
MR SAGE:
If we can do it this way, if you are concerned Mr
Butterfield, they can be returned to him and then produced by him,
15
MR BUTTERFIELD:
I think thats,
MR SAGE:
Further produced and Ill make them give them a new
Exhibit number.
20
MR BUTTERFIELD:
I think thats the appropriate course, Examiner, if thats,
MR SAGE:
Okay.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
I dont mean to be pedantic but,
MR SAGE:
No.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
They were produced by reason of the, his arrest.
MR SAGE:
You are correct to ask for it to be done that way. So if
25
30
they can be now be just handed to, Exhibits ten (10) and eleven (11) handed to Mr
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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16

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ZZ
ZZ
and Mr
I will give you a direction now requiring you to produce
Australian passports, number
is
the current passport and cancel passport number N

and the
passport or identification number
Im informed that theyre in a safe well have to

recover them and bring them in.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
And can I just ask whether or not in the circumstances
that its a necessity to retain the expired passport?

10
MR SAGE:
Pardon?
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Whether theres any necessity for the Commission to
retain the expired passport?

15
MR SAGE:
Yes there is a reason and its not appropriate to, for me to
mention that reason on the record in this Examination,
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Examiner please.
MR SAGE:
But it is relevant.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
I understand.
MR SAGE:
Okay. Look, Ill leave the bench again for that to happen
20
25
and when we come Mr
ZZ
will be shown the, handed the passports and he
can then hand them back subject to the direction Ive just given and then Ill
adjourn the Examination to the nominal date of the second (2nd) of June and as I
said earlier an application will be made to the Federal Court as soon as
30
practicable for Mr
ZZ
to be dealt with for contempt of the Australian Crime
Commission and for the purpose of Mr
ZZ
being taken before the Federal
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(15/04/2014)
17

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Court, hes to be detained by a constable and taken before the court, Federal
Court as soon as practicable. Okay. Well just adjourn briefly.
MR RAWE:
All stand. Take a short adjournment.
5
ADJOURNMENT
10
MR RAWE:
MR SAGE:
Now Mr
ZZ
can be shown the passports and the
identification. Show them to Mr Butterfield first please.
MS HOWARD:
Together also from Exhibit twelve (12), Examiner is a
copy of the witnesss identity card,

15
20
identity card, that belongs to that
class of documents that was taken from the Exhibits,
MR SAGE:
Do you have Exhibit twelve (12)?
MS HOWARD:
And that is sitting together with the
passport,
Examiner,
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MS HOWARD:
And the witness has just had a look at those documents.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Examiner, in the circumstances can I just enquire about
25
that document, again whether theres any need for that to be retained in view of,
MR SAGE:
The identification?
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(15/04/2014)
18

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MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes. I understand that all of these have been copied as
Exhibits.
MR SAGE:
No. There is a need to retain the originals. Thank you.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Examiner please.
MS HOWARD:
(Wds),
MR SAGE:
I note that Mr
10
passports and the
ZZ
has now returned the two (2)
identification to satisfy the direction that I have given
and,
15
MS HOWARD:
The current and expired Australian passports, Examiner.
MR SAGE:
Is there any reason why they cant remain as the Exhibit
numbers that theyve been given?
20
MR BUTTERFIELD:
In case they need to be surrendered in accordance with
the contempt proceedings. Im not sure of the logistic difficulties of them being,
25
MR SAGE:
Okay. Ill give them new numbers.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Oh sorry, purely from a numbering perception, Examiner,
I, theres no issue with that.
30
MR SAGE:
Okay.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(15/04/2014)
19

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MR SAGE:
Well Ill leave them as the same numbers.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thank you.
MR SAGE:
Yes.
passports and the
That will be Exhibit eleven (11) is the two (2)

passport, sorry, Ill also give you a direction to
produce the
passport, I previously, I referred to a
identification card, there is a
passport which is Exhibit ten (10), thats
the number I referred to

10
and the
identification card is part of Exhibit twelve (12), theyll retain those

numbers. And as I said, I require those items to be retained until four (4:00) pm
tomorrow,
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thank you Examiner.
MR SAGE:
Give the Federal Court Justice an opportunity to consider
15
whether those identification documents should be further retained as bail

conditions imposed upon Mr
ZZ
20
ZZ . I now adjourn the further Examination of
until Monday the second of June two thousand and fifteen
(02/06/2014) on the understanding that it is for mention on that day if the

proceedings in the Federal Court are finalised and theres no further requirement
for Mr
ZZ
to be examined, then he will be discharged from further conditions,
discharge from the terms of the Summons either prior to the second (2nd) of June
or on the second (2nd) of June. If there is a further requirement to examine Mr
25
ZZ
then on the second (2nd) of June I will determine a date as after
consultation concerning Mr Butterfields availability.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Examiner, before you arise, can I just ask for two (2)
matters. First of all a (wd) certificate under 34B(4) that may be in existence in
30
regards to the application to be made. I understand that Mr
ZZ
is entitled to a
copy of that certificate before or at the same time of the application,

_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(15/04/2014)
20

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MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
If thats in existence, Id ask for a copy to be provided to
me.
MR SAGE:
As soon as thats available it will be provided to you.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thank you. Then secondly, the non-disclosure,
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Continuation orders. I envisage that theres a likelihood
10
that I will need to disclose certain things to potential sureties and Id asked that
15
they, the non-disclosure orders if they are to be continued be amended to permit

Mr
ZZ
to disclose to any surety including his mother and father as to the
existence and the nature of the proceedings.
MR SAGE:
20
Yes, that would be an exception restricted to the nature of
the proceedings but not the content of the questions and answers that have been
given.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
And Id ask that that amendment be made to the
continuation of any such orders.

25
MR SAGE:
And his mother and fathers names?
MR BUTTERFIELD:
The full names, Ill ask Mr
ZZ , can you provide the full
details of your mother and father?

30
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
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ZZ
(15/04/2014)
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MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR
ZZ
Your fathers name?
5
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR
10
ZZ
Yeah.
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
15
MR
ZZ
MR BUTTERFIELD:
20
MR
ZZ
And your mother?
And
Yeah, , and the last name
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
25
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thank you. And can I ask that those names be noted and
any other surety required if those persons are not able to either meet the
conditions of being a surety or otherwise. If required I can undertake to notify the
Commission of who that surety is.
30
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(15/04/2014)
22

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MS HOWARD:
Yes Examiner if that could be done then Id appreciate
that for the record in the event that there is any issues with respect to a disclosure
to any particular surety for any reason underneath the special operation.
5
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MS HOWARD:
If that could, if the Commission could be notified first.
Thank you Examiner.

10
MR SAGE:
Well I understand that Mr Butterfield has given that
undertaking, yes. Now I will give a non-publication direction, for the period of this
adjournment, Mr
ZZ , I direct that there is to be no communication other than
between the persons here present who I have approved to be present of any of
15
the matters arising from your Examination so far.
I include as the following
exceptions to this non-publication direction, the Chief Executive Officer, the

members of the staff of this Commission and the Examiners, the Australian
Federal Police, the Joint Counter Terrorism Team and the Australian Intelligence
Community for any matter within their jurisdictions arising from this special
20
operation. I also include as a further exception to this non-publication direction,

members of staff of the Federal Court of Australia and any judicial officer for the
purpose of considering any application arising from this special operation. I also
include as a further exception or if required for the purpose of obtaining any surety
to surety or sureties to act for Mr
25
ZZ ,
his father,
his mother and any other surety as may be required

on the condition that Mr Butterfield will inform pursuant to his undertaking given on
the record the name and other personal details of the intended surety or sureties.
Any other exceptions?
30
MS HOWARD:
And
Counsel
engaged
by
the
Australian
Crime
Commission,
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(15/04/2014)
23

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MR SAGE:
Right. Okay. And,
MS HOWARD:
For the purpose of,
MR SAGE:
Counsel obtained, retained,
MS HOWARD:
Retained.
MR SAGE:
By the Australian Crime Commission and the Australian
10
Government Solicitor for any matter including an application arising from this
special operation. And Mr Butterfield, do you intend to have a Senior Counsel?
MR BUTTERFIELD:
15
additional Counsel engaged by Mr
MR SAGE:
of Mr
20
Theres a possibility, could it be extended to any other
ZZ
ZZ
as well?
Okay. And any other Counsel engaged for and on behalf

by Mr Butterfield.
MS HOWARD:
Thank you Examiner.
MR SAGE:
Nothing further?
ZZ
I now adjourn the Examination of
until Monday the second of June two thousand and fourteen
(02/06/2014) for mention only on that date. Thank you Mr Butterfield.

25
30
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thank you.
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MR RAWE:
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
(15/04/2014)
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